ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

[Richard W]

I have for a long while wondered what is the function of the ratcheting mechanism on the locks of traditional Spanish navajas. It makes it impossible to open them silently. The only advantage I can see is that it could not be accidentally closed on the hand while opening the knife; perhaps if someone kicked it in mid-open? I have read that it acts much as the rattle on a rattlesnake; announcing imminent danger. If any of you experts have an idea, I would love to know.
Thank you.
Richard.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Richard,

I have for a long while wondered what is the function of the ratcheting mechanism on the locks of traditional Spanish navajas. It makes it impossible to open them silently. The only advantage I can see is that it could not be accidentally closed on the hand while opening the knife; perhaps if someone kicked it in mid-open? I have read that it acts much as the rattle on a rattlesnake; announcing imminent danger. If any of you experts have an idea, I would love to know.
Thank you.
Richard.

There's no easy answer to your question.

The current urban myth is that it was intended to frighten the opponent, but this does not stand up to scrutiny because only a very timid and inexperienced fighter would be so affected and a bolder adversary would take advantage of this impediment.

Some years ago I was told by a knowledgeable Spanish collector that there was some evidence that it was a requirement by the authorities to slow down the opening and provide a warning noise. To me this seems more plausible especially when we recall that a good many navajas had only three teeth, which appear to be some kind of token concession to a requirement.

Another plausible justification is that the ratchet, `carraca’ is Spanish, prevented the inadvertent dangerous opening of the larger blades, say if falling of a horse, but again three teeth do very little.

The undisputed authority on the navaja, Forton, in his very comprehensive and definitive work on this knife, completely avoided this subject.

I’ll add that with the post 1900 levered latch, the navaja can be opened without the back spring engaging with the ratchet and in fact can be flipped open, but not always reliably.



Fernando: I think that this thread should be transferred to the Ethnic Weapons forum where all the past discussions on the navaja took place.


Cheers
Chris

[A. G. Maisey]

I am no expert on navajas, but I have owned several. All the ones that I owned were quite old, quite large, and they could very easily and positively be flipped open, once open it required two hands and effort to close them.

I got rid of all of them probably in the early 1980's.

I had assumed that they were weapons, rather than tools, and as weapons they required a very positive locking system to prevent the blade being closed on the user's hand by an opponent.

At the present time the Roman pattern Italian folder, which is usually just about normal pocket knife size, employs a very similar mechanism to the one that my navajas used --- but my navajas were all over 12" long when closed.

[machinist]

I have always been partial to the rattlesnake idea, many of these knives had a pommel that is composed of a series of globes that kind of/sort of resemble the tail of the rattlesnake and some do have a motto engraved saying" if this serpent bites you there is no remedy in the pharmacy" (or so I am told, it is not my translation) so a serpent motif makes sense to me. I do not think it was to warn others but just to appeal to the buyer, makers of small pocket weapons had to appeal to a young male market so a bit of flash and uniqueness helped to sell the piece.

[Chris Evans]

A. G. Maisey:

According to Forton the bulk of the navajas were relatively small, if I remember right, six to nine inches in blade length. The larger ones were show pieces, many destined for the souvenir market.

And yes, the ones with very large blades, especially if a bit loose, could be flipped open.

As an aside, the technical problem with navajas once the blade length exceeded nine inches was that their weight went up significantly and they remained very weak at the pivot point.

I had assumed that they were weapons, rather than tools, and as weapons they required a very positive locking system to prevent the blade being closed on the user's hand by an opponent

This is another thesis for explaining the ratchet. If the main tooth failed, then there were others as `back-ups'


Machinist: I think that what you are describing with the rattle snake pommels are large folding knives made in France, mostly for the Spanish market.

Cheers
Chris

[A. G. Maisey]

Chris, my navajas are now +30 years out of my possession, but I do recall that two of them had very strong pivot points, the blade extension that provided the foundation for the ratchet teeth went back a good distance into the handle, these were loose joints when unlocked, but very solid joints when locked, there was absolutely nothing "tourist" or souvenir about them.

The third one I had I seem to recall was a bit flimsy, not nearly the same quality as the two I mentioned with solid joints.

I'm probably wrong, but I've never thought of navajas as smaller knives. If we can count any folder with a ratchet locking joint as a navaja I've actually had quite a few navajas, I think all were fairly recent --- say not more than 60 or 70 years old, and just about normal pocket knife size. Over the years I've traded most of these away for other pocket knives, I think I've still got one though.

[kronckew]

couple for illustration, the stag one is quite large (and noisy).

...and some ring pulls, they are mostly in the same family

there is a saying that the sound of the navaja was the last thing many people heard.

[fernando]

Fernando: I think that this thread should be transferred to the Ethnic Weapons forum where all the past discussions on the navaja took place ...
Done

[Chris Evans]

A.G. Maisey:

I cannot comment on your navajas without photos and some additional information.

However, I have a representative collection of traditional 19th and 20th century navajas and none of the larger ones are light, in practical terms, or passably strong at the lock. I have handled many antique navajas over the years and have yet to see one with a blade over 9" that was practical..

This subject got a very through airing on this forum about 13 years ago and if you do a search you'll finds lots of good information.


kronckew: Nice collection!


Cheers
Chris

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your remarks Chris.

Obviously I'm not looking for any comments on the navajas I had +30 years ago. They are no longer in my possession, and I have no idea where they might be, I was only throwing an offhand comment into the discussion.

Yes, I've seen previous discussion on navajas, but I'm not really interested in pursuing the subject. I accept that you are expert in this subject, I admit that I am not, I can only comment in objective terms upon what I have seen.

[Chris Evans]

A.G. Maisey:

I apologize if I sounded a bit censorious and I do not for a moment disbelieve what you say.

The original question by Richard was re the function of the ratchet, which originated in Spain quite early in the development of the navaja. In that context, we have to keep in mind the technical limitations that those cutlers were confronted by, and the role of the said ratchet in that historical setting.

What I mean by my remarks was that the justification for your experience has to be sought in the make, typology and age of your knives. Modern knives can do all sorts of things that the antiques could not and have no bearing on the original intent behind the ratchet.

As an aside, locking clasp knives of the Spanish pattern were made in many countries besides Spain, as afar as India and Africa, and many of these were way better than those of Hispanic make. The French in particular made very good `navajas' in the 19th century and these were eagerly imported into Spain in huge quantities.

Cheers
Chris

[A. G. Maisey]

The navajas I was talking about were all old ones, i recall one had a horn handle, and the horn was separating because of age and neglect. I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread.

As I have said, I have no expert knowledge of navajas, and very little interest, but I do have a background in custom knifemaking and I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for about 12 years. My opinion of these knives as a maker is that they needed an effective method of locking the blade in place, and when these things first appeared it is unlikely that good spring steel was a practical application. I would guess that the very early ancestors of navajas were like a lot of early folders, no backspring, no locking mechanism. A lot of Italian folders are made like this even today.

The blade in a folder without a spring or locking mechanism can be made with an extension that comes down onto the back of the handle when the blade is open, and the hand holds the blade open, but this design is far from a secure lock. Probably when it became possible for small pieces of spring steel to be used the cheapest and most practical method was the notch on the back of the blade locking into a sprung catch. The ratchet would have followed this.

That's the way I look at it as a maker:- a simple, cheap, mechanical fix. Totally practical for somebody working with simple technology and tools.

[Chris Evans]

A. G. Maisey:

I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread

Well, "small" is a relative term and I did qualify it by quoting Forton's 6"-9"range for average size.

Whilst they did come in all sizes, from very small to gigantic, my remarks were in relation to the big navajas that many collectors wrongly believe were meant for use.

With all this said, we are still no closer to knowing the intended function of the ratchet.

Cheers
Chris

[Rick]

I thought some might enjoy this related image.

[Lee]

Here is a very well worn and nibbled upon navaja that I bought last year at the Brimfield flea market for $25. I have been using it to open envelopes. It is about 9½ inches long closed and the blade is about 7¼ inches long. It is loose enough now that you can close it without lifting the latch, but each ratchet point does engage and give some resistance. Put your thumb over the latch and fingers naturally around the horn scales and the blade is securely open. I prefer this design to the pull ring clasp style that was reputedly derived from it. I'd welcome any comments as to how long this old knife may have been around.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, you're right Chris.

Intended function of ratchet?

Prevents accidental closure of blade.

[Chris Evans]

Rick:

That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out.

The size of the navaja on the ground is consistent with the majority in use, according to Forton.

Lee:

Your navaja’s style is consistent of those made in the 19th century in the city of Albacete. It has what we call a pick-lock, meaning that the backspring has to be manually lifted upwards to disengage from the lock notch in the blade. These were superseded by the ring lock around 1875, so yours is earlier.

A.G. Maisey:



That is the role of the engagement notch in the blade and not of the ratchet teeth.

Most modern navajas of the traditional pattern do not feature the ratchet and have a simple engagement notch in the heel of the blade so as to secure it in the open position.

As suggested earlier, the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch. Or, its main function is to prevent the navaja from being opened easily, unintentionally or intentionally as by being flicked open.

In Forton's 490 page in depth study of the navaja, which dedicates a whole chapter to the technicalities of this knife, mention is made of the ratchet stating that it is a variant of the plain `window' lock and that it appeared in the 18th century, but without giving any reason for its raison d'etre. This I find noteworthy, because Forton knew navajas extremely well and must have felt that its intended function is lost in the mist of time.

Cheers
Chris


.

[A. G. Maisey]

With my most humble apologies Chris, I beg to disagree that the role of notch and latch is to prevent accidental closure of the blade.

The role of the notch and latch is to lock the blade into position.

However, if that positive lock is not effectively made when the blade is initially opened, what occurs is accidental closure. Similarly, if the latch is accidentally or intentionally knocked the notch becomes disengaged and again we have accidental closure.

The mechanical function of any ratchet system is to permit incremental opening or closing of a loaded body. The blade of the navaja is loaded by virtue of its weight, it relies totally on the notch and latch to keep it in place. Failure of proper engagement of the notch into the latch by whatever cause will free the blade and cause damage to the hand of the user. Use of a ratchet system that will permit an incremental closure will provide a degree of protection to the user.

Risk management Chris. Just that. People have always managed risk, and this is the way they managed the risk of a loosely swinging blade in an unlocked navaja.

This entire question is actually an engineering question. I don't see it as a cultural question, or a question connected with the inherent categorisation of collecting, but rather the type of question that could be put to a design engineer , even today.

As has already been said:- "--- the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch.---".

I've said exactly the same thing but in different words. In fact, my initial five word opinion is in agreement with the previous comment.

[Chris Evans]

A.G Maisey:

We are in agreement that the ratchet can function as a backup to the main notch. However, it is also undeniable that it impedes silent, fast or inadvertent opening. So here we have three more functions, all related to opening.

Now the question remains which was paramount in the incorporation of the ratchet and why. The Cold Steel Elan and Kudu renditions of a traditional navaja also incorporate a ratchet, but the teeth are rounded and do not positively stop the blade at any one position, only impedes its motion - Clearly it serves a greater role re opening than closing.

This entire question is actually an engineering question. I don't see it as a cultural question, <snip>

When it comes to weapons, engineering considerations very often address legal requirements. What stands in the way of the there being a cultural/legal aspect to this or for that matter any design feature, especially one that is targeted by the law, as locks were?

Forton makes it clear that old Spanish law concentrated on the locking mechanism and navajas with a positive lock were illegal. So now we have a curious situation in which the law declared lockable navajas prohibited weapons, but in many areas they were sort of tolerated. By sort I mean that from time to time the authorities clamped down on their use and at others did nothing.

The Castilla La Mancha area is and was the traditional home of the Spanish cutlery industry and zealous enforcement of the law would have had serious economic consequences; So this accounts for the lax and inconsistent law enforcement.

As a hypothesis, and that is all this is, it is reasonable to posit that the local authorities required the presence a ratchet on all navajas, as suggested by my Spanish contact, to reduce their efficacy as weapons.

Here we have to remember the that the sole reason behind the navaja’s existence was the banning of all effective weapons after the Spanish War Of Succession and the subsequent ascent of the House of Bourbon to the Spanish throne, a French royal house imposed on Spain and one that greatly feared rebellion.

I have an open mind on the subject, though I find the explanation of intimidation by the noise produced hard to accept.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Chris,

You are correct concerning the Spanish legislation on edged weapons, but it was not privative of the borbonic regime. Carlos III reigned from 1759 to 1788, but before his legislation on this subject (pragmática from April, 1761), there were other laws before him expresly prohibiting all edged weapons to the common people (pragmáticas from 1740, 1751 and 1754), stating that only working knives were allowed, but should have no point whatsoever rounded. Navajas developed as a way to avoid the law, since they have not fixed blade, though the navajas with locking mechanisms did were prohibited. There are diverse myths surrounding this type of navaja, called "de carraca", "de muelle" or "de siete muelles" (for those which had seven notches). In fact, this mechanism was only adopted by reasons of secure handling, and latter were added the myths concerning the initimidation and legal factors. If for legal reasons, the locking mechanism would be an obstacle and not a way to facilitate their use.

You are also right about the fear of rebellion. Authoritarian and unpopular goverments are always fear of rebellion and love prohibitions, specially on weapons. In the New Spain (more o less actual Mexico), only the Spaniards could use weapons and ride horses. And only they could produce knives or swords. But the people always find a way to avoid the prohibitions, and even to disobey them. So, the navajas were tolerated to a certain point as working tools, less dangerous than the fixed blade knives, no matter they grew in time to greater sizes. I am under the impression that the navajas de carraca are a late devolpment, when this legislation was no longer enforced.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Chris, I do not disagree that that there could be a legal element involved in this matter, and if this is the case then those with an interest in this subject should be able to carry out the requisite research to establish precisely what the law and attached regulations and definitions were. After all, we're dealing with a European power here surely the sources are there to be found.

If a legal element is involved, the whole matter becomes much more interesting.

However, considered in light of what is actually known about this knife form, what we do have in front of us is a reasonably simple engineering problem that was solved by a reasonably simple engineering application. Perhaps that engineering solution was applied because of some presently unknown, or at least indefinite, legal requirements, perhaps it was applied because users got sick of losing fingers. But there is no doubt at all that the ratchet does serve an engineering based function.

As you point out, the noise hypothesis is rather dubious.

The legal requirement hypothesis is very spongy and seems to rely on unauthenticated hearsay.

The risk control hypothesis is at least demonstrably practical.

I've got no stake in this matter at all, somewhere between little interest and no interest at all in navajas, and precious little knowledge of any of the cultural background. One could say I'm on the outside looking in, and what I see through the window is a tool (weapons are tools made for killing) that originally had a design defect that was remedied by application of engineering principles.
Perhaps there is a legal element that needs to be researched, but right now that relevant data does not seem to be available. When it does become available and legal or social reasons can be effectively argued, I might well change my mind, but right now all I can see is plain old fashioned practicality and common sense:- the blade flops open : lets fix it.

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo:

Nice to have you back again as I always enjoy reading your valuable contributions.

….but it was not privative of the borbonic regime <snip>

Quoting Forton (freely translated): The first legal proclamation in this matter was made on December 21, 1721 by King Philip V, in Lerma.

As you well know, Philip V was Bourbon and that the whole Spanish War Of Succession was about the virtual annexation of Spain by France/Bourbons altering the balance of power in Europe.


In fact, this mechanism was only adopted by reasons of secure handling, and latter were added the myths concerning the intimidation and legal factors.

The lock was certainly and obviously added for the safety of the wielder, but as for the ratchet we simply do not know. We can all guess, but we do not know. If Forton with all his knowledge shied away from expressing an opinion, then we will all be well served in being equally prudent.

I am under the impression that the navajas de carraca are a late devolpment, when this legislation was no longer enforced

There are navajas dated to the 18th century with `carraca’ and Forton dates this feature back to the earliest navajas.

A.G. Maisey:

Chris, I do not disagree that that there could be a legal element involved in this matter, and if this is the case then those with an interest in this subject should be able to carry out the requisite research to establish precisely what the law and attached regulations and definitions were.

Firstly, I must declare that I and Gonzalo have an advantage in this discussion because he is a native Spanish speaker and I have a good command of the language, and thus we both have read extensively from many original sources, the principal being the writings of Rafael Martinez del Peral Y Forton, the foremost expert in Spain on the subject. Unfortunately, his works remain untranslated.

Forton's most important work is `La Navaja Española Antigua', mandatory reading for anyone who ventures forth to study this most interesting tool and weapon.

In the 490 pages of this huge work, Forton dedicates a whole chapter to the legal aspects of the navaja. He concluded that the navaja, as we know it, appeared in Spain early in the 18th century and not before, and the historical study or relevant documents pre-dating this era failed to mention its presence because people could own whatever weapons they could afford. Here it is important to note that the Spanish wars of Succession unfolded between 1702 and 1715.

So simply stated we can say that the navaja came into being on account of the weapon bans brought in by the ascent of the Bourbons after the last of the Spanish Hapsburgs, Charles II, failed to establish a successor.

As such, the navaja cannot seriously be studied outside of the laws of the time, which effectively created it. And here we have to remember that the navaja is a very poor weapon compared to a fixed blade knife and it was something that the Spaniards defaulted to rather than what they wanted to have as a sidearm.

Your suggestion of researching the laws of the time is sound and is exactly what Forton did. But what muddies the waters, so to speak is that on the one hand there were the laws and on the other these were inconsistently enforced, mostly at the arbitrary whim of the local authorities who had to take many other factors into consideration. One important contributing factor to all this was the political unrest that troubled Spain throughout the 19th century.

As an aside, the cumulative effects of the punitive and repressive laws, albeit inconsistently applied, in time reduced the once world famous Spanish cutlery industry, in Forton's words, to a mere shadow of itself by the mid 19th century, and by which time millions of navajas made in France flooded into the country - These were both better made and cheaper.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Chris,

It is nice to "talk" with you again. You are right, I forgot Philip V was enthroned in 1700. :eek: :shrug: My apologies.

I have some doubts about the work of Forton. The locking mechanism "de muelle" (spring loaded) is present since the early "Spanish" navajas, but dating the specific carraca mechanism to so early date gives me some of these doubts. The other, more important point about Forton: navajas were presumably known and used in this area since the Roman times. The original navaja from Albacete is attributed to the muslim culture in its stytilistic features. Albacete was founded by the muslim rulers (the city of Al-Basit), and was famous for its muslim knifemakers since that time.

The Spanish people has been systematically denying and hiding their muslim and jewish heritage since the time of the catholic kings, and moreover since the Franco's dictadorship, but for some architectural and decorative contributions. I believe Forton is no exception. Do you believe that the production of navajas was forgotten completely after the fall of the Roman Empire, and suddenly, after the creation of the Spanish state in the 16th Century, they began producing navajas? and less those navajas from Albacete which does not look "Spanish" at all, but moorish? I know, there are not historic items connecting the Spanish navajas with their ancestors from the muslim rule. But you also cannot find historic muslim cimitarras and alfanjes from that time, in spite that they are abundantly mentioned in the sources as moorish weapons. The few ones I have seen as such are in fact Renacentist Venetian stortas!

I am sorry if this comment on Forton statements became a disgression, but I think it is relevant to a certain point to contextualize the possible bias of this author.
Regards

[fernando]

...That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out...
A little preciousness ... if i may, Chris :o . The term 'Venta' has a double meaning, both in castillian and portuguese; in this context would not mean 'sale', but a place where women would buy groceries and men would spend time drinking and playing cards, or the like; a sort of tavern. This would make it more consistent with the legend of the dwarf:


Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil.

in a strict translation:


Apparently there was
In Candil's 'tavern'
A dwarf that had
Voice equivalent to a thousand.

.

[fernando]

I have always been partial to the rattlesnake idea, many of these knives had a pommel that is composed of a series of globes that kind of/sort of resemble the tail of the rattlesnake and some do have a motto engraved saying" if this serpent bites you there is no remedy in the pharmacy" (or so I am told, it is not my translation) so a serpent motif makes sense to me ...
One may understand that calling the opening cracking noise that of a rattlesnake is a coloquial term to go with english speaking media but, i see it as a rather remote use in Spanish terms, where in fact there are no rattlesnakes over the Iberain Peninsula. Actually the motto in navaja blades reads "se esta vibora the pica ..." . This is more plausible, as vipers are common snakes in the territory. The reason for the 'globes' in the pommel will certainly have a different explanation ... perhaps one related with Moor culture.

[fernando]

...We are in agreement that the ratchet can function as a backup to the main notch. However, it is also undeniable that it impedes silent, fast or inadvertent opening. So here we have three more functions, all related to opening...
Now the question remains which was paramount in the incorporation of the ratchet and why...
... As a hypothesis, and that is all this is, it is reasonable to posit that the local authorities required the presence a ratchet on all navajas, as suggested by my Spanish contact, to reduce their efficacy as weapons...
... I have an open mind on the subject, though I find the explanation of intimidation by the noise produced hard to accept...
No doubt the ratchet purpose is the one million dollar question, Chris. Personally, while in absence of hard evidence, i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation. And then we go on the ratchet purpose; the version i fancy is that related with the noise produced, not with safety ... and saying that, i would realize that such noise is made to warn the victim (?) that a navaja atack is iminent ... be it a law enforcement or some consuetudinary code of ethics.

[fernando]

Here is a very well worn and nibbled upon navaja that I bought last year at the Brimfield flea market for $25. I have been using it to open envelopes. It is about 9½ inches long closed and the blade is about 7¼ inches long. It is loose enough now that you can close it without lifting the latch, but each ratchet point does engage and give some resistance. Put your thumb over the latch and fingers naturally around the horn scales and the blade is securely open. I prefer this design to the pull ring clasp style that was reputedly derived from it. I'd welcome any comments as to how long this old knife may have been around.
An excelent example Lee; a genuine one for an amazing price. I guess the pull ring clasp version ended up giving place to the 'the last of mohicans' of these mechanisms; one certainly made for purposes more directed to tourists other than villagers. Another system was that like the one of your example but with a lever to easier operate the opening. This was the system that i got used to see around since my youth; the main weakness was that the lever was rather feeble and worn out very quickly.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm out of this discussion now, I've pretty much said a lot more than I wanted to say anyway. We now have a group of people who are conversant with the subject and the culture, and I want to escape this thread.

However --- Fernando you raised a question that I think I should in all fairness respond to for you. Bear in mind, I have approached this question of the ratchet not from a cultural nor from a societal base, but purely from the perspective of a maker who does have some understanding of knife and tool design relative to engineering principles.

You have said:- "--- i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation.---"

The multiple teeth found on this ratchet are not there as a back-up in case of failure of the lock notch, but rather to prevent immediate closure of a sharp blade onto the fingers of the user:- in a case where the blade notch is dislodged from the latch, that blade will decline towards the handle, the multiple teeth on the ratchet provide a longer length of interference on closure, and thus a better chance --- in fact multiple better chances --- of stopping blade closure prior to contact with fingers.

You have noted that navajas as tools have only the notch & latch, but larger navajas, possibly intended as weapons do have the ratchet.

In old treatises on knife fighting, and on fencing with a sword, what we find is that especially in knife fighting techniques we are in fact looking at free-style fist fighting or free-style wrestling, but with a knife in one hand (or maybe both).

The knife does not get used independent of the rest of the body, nope, the whole body is involved in getting the knife to where it is intended to be. This means that the hand that does not hold the knife is also engaged in combat. That empty hand is sometimes used to grasp the knife hand of the opponent.

If there are treatises specifically on fighting with a navaja, I feel that close examination of these treatises might reveal that one of the combat techniques used in combat with a navaja was for the empty hand to grasp the opponent's knife hand and trip the latch on disengagement. The ratchet prevented complete disengagement which meant that a navaja with ratchet provided a preventive measure against such a technique.

Now I'm out of this discussion. You gentlemen with a genuine cultural interest are far better equipped to discuss this important matter than am I.

[Gonzalo G]

Mr. Maisey,

I find your contributions very sensible and useful. I am personally interested in the "engineering" aspects on the construction of edged weapons and your reasonings on this subject are specially valuable to me and for certain are also very interesting to everybody. The matter of this thread is the function of the ratchet mechanism on the navajas de carraca, and it was examined from different points of view, since this subject admits it, given the common beliefs existing around this mechanism. I completely agree with your perspective and your statements and I don´t find they have less cultural interest than the historical and legal perspectives. After all, the technology is part of a given culture and your comments contribute to shed a valuable light on this topic.
Regards

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

A little preciousness ... if i may, Chris :o . The term 'Venta' has a double meaning, both in castillian and portuguese; in this context would not mean 'sale', but a place where women would buy groceries and men would spend time drinking and playing cards, or the like; a sort of tavern. <snip>

Thank you for clarifying that Iberian idiomatic expression. I learned my Spanish in Sth America and never associated "venta" with a grocery store.

Much appreciated and,

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

The reason for the 'globes' in the pommel will certainly have a different explanation ... perhaps one related with Moor culture.

Well, the navajas with "globes" originated from France, so what are we to make of that?

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

I have some doubts about the work of Forton.

In a post I made some time ago, i did write that his magnum opus is in need of a revison/update, but I believe that Forton is now 87yrs old, so this is unlikely happen.

With that said, I think that until something better comes along, we have to go with his views, even if we entertain some doubts, because otherwise we are left with guesses based on personal fancy.

The locking mechanism "de muelle" (spring loaded) is present since the early "Spanish" navajas, but dating the specific carraca mechanism to so early date gives me some of these doubts.

Dating navajas is problematic, but in his book he shows photos of navajas with carracas that he attributes to the 18th century. Their appearance is certainly more primitive than what became more or less normative in the 19th century. I imagine that there may be paintings or drawings from that century that depict these navajas.



The other, more important point about Forton: navajas were presumably known and used in this area since the Roman times. The original navaja from Albacete is attributed to the muslim culture in its stytilistic features. Albacete was founded by the muslim rulers (the city of Al-Basit), and was famous for its muslim knifemakers since that time.


He deals with the origins of the navaja at some length and concluded that the earliest reliably dated folding clasp knife that has been able to find goes back to 1699, but I have to point out that it is quite unlike what we would call a `navaja'.

Having stated this, he goes on to say that the navaja made its appearance in the 17th century, being mentioned by Cervantes as weapons, but these early references do not describe them with any precision, so all we know is that they were folding knives. Well, my take on this is that barber's razors go back to ancient times and also were used violently at times so....

As you rightly point out, folding knives have been around since Roman times, so the birth of the classical navaja, for lack of a better term, is a matter of arbitrary definition based on typology.

For what it is worth, my guess is that there must have been an evolutionary period commencing around 1600, made possible by metallurgical and lockwork advances of the renaissance, and which was given a major impetus by the banning of weapons in Spain, culminating in the classical navaja.

There are many who speculate on an earlier origin of the classical navaja, but the major obstacle to this is that a) there is no hard substantive evidence, and b) fixed blade knives were in all ways better as both tools and weapons, so why bother with complicated and labor intensive mechanisms?

The major problem with the study of the navaja is that it was an instrument that pertained to the illiterate plebes and was treated with disdain by the upper classes. As such its origins go undocumented and are lost in the mist of time.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

No doubt the ratchet purpose is the one million dollar question, Chris. Personally, while in absence of hard evidence, i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation. And then we go on the ratchet purpose; the version i fancy is that related with the noise produced, not with safety ... and saying that, i would realize that such noise is made to warn the victim (?) that a navaja atack is iminent ... be it a law enforcement or some consuetudinary code of ethics.

You raise some perplexing questions, and I'll rank them alongside another one; Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca.

What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure.

I think that we have to treat this mystery in the same way as we treat the equally mysterious notch at the heel of Nepalese Kukris, which also defies explanation.

Cheers
Chris

[kronckew]

just for devilment, the okapi ring pull knife comes from so. africa where they were made under license from solingen, where they are no longer made. the CS 'kudu' is a modernised version of the okapi (both in my photo earlier) a solingen version is also there. someone once told me more people die in so. africa by okapi than any other non-firearm related cause. the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...

the levers on the navajas used to lift the lock out of engagement are not that easy to use in the best of circumstances, under pressure of an engagement with another trying to do the same to you would be rather difficult, if not impossible. might be a bit easier on a ring pull, but still....

[Chris Evans]

kronckew

just for devilment, the okapi ring pull knife comes from so. africa where they were made under license from solingen, where they are no longer made. the CS 'kudu' is a modernised version of the okapi (both in my photo earlier) a solingen version is also there. someone once told me more people die in so. africa by okapi than any other non-firearm related cause. the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening....


I have a 6.5" bladed South African specimen in my collection and also two Cold Steels. The Okapi does not have a carraca like feature and the two Cold Steels, one a Kudu and the other an Elan. do have a ratchet, but not in the manner of the Spanish and Italian navajas, as their four and five`teeth' respectively are rounded so as to slow down the opening/closing but do not stop the blade at any one position nor do they emit a strong noise, hardly audible in fact.

Cheers
Chris

[mariusgmioc]

We can speculate ad nausea about the primary role of the "carraca" mechanism but technically there is a clear reason for it: SAFETY. More exactly to ensure a controlled closure of the blade all the way.

While for a small or "normal" size pocket knife controlling the closure of the blade is not a problem, for a 30 cm (12") blade (quite common size for the fighting navajas) the accidental closure from an incomplete opened position can be disatrous for the owner's fingers. Hence, the necessity to provide the knife with additional safety.

All this said, there might also be the dramatic (whether intimidating, warning or simply flashy) effect of the "carraca" sound when opening the navaja.

[Lee]

Thank you Chris for your attribution of my navaja. The blade is fairly thin (0.06 inch ~ 1.52 mm). The end of the blade first engages the spring at about half open (90 degrees).

- - - - -

Lew had an old 'pull-ring to unlock' clasp knife that he regarded as French, 19th Century. It has been burnished up, but traces of age remain in the crevices. This blade is thicker and the fulcrum more robust, but with just the one stop (it may be seen sticking out in the closed photos below).

Lew must have really liked this style of knife as he also had several variations of the Okapis (both German and South African made) as well as having Kudu knock-offs.

[Chris Evans]

Lee,

That `navaja' looks very French to me, but could have come from anywhere, perhaps Italian.

The `teat' lock was much favoured in France and Italy.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Mariusgmioc,


We can speculate ad nausea about the primary role of the "carraca" mechanism but technically there is a clear reason for it: SAFETY. More exactly to ensure a controlled closure of the blade all the way.

While for a small or "normal" size pocket knife controlling the closure of the blade is not a problem, for a 30 cm (12") blade (quite common size for the fighting navajas) the accidental closure from an incomplete opened position can be disatrous for the owner's fingers. Hence, the necessity to provide the knife with additional safety.

All this said, there might also be the dramatic (whether intimidating, warning or simply flashy) effect of the "carraca" sound when opening the navaja.

You may well be right, but the French lockable clasp knives did not have them, except those made specifically for the Spanish market, es exemplified by Giordias.

In fact most large French `navajas' exported to Spain in the 19th century did not even have a positive lock, sporting only a robust variation of what we call the slipjoint and which I call a demi-lock.

Also Italians had ratchets on their variations of the large `navaja' but by the late 19th century the `teat' lock took over and the ratchet disappeared.

So what are we to make out off all this? Did safety suddenly become superfluous? And why did some old Spanish navajas have 15 teeth and others only three?

And here's something else to consider: With the old piclock and the later ring lock, the fingers were not threatened when intentionally closing the clasp knife. This danger only materialized with the introduction of the lever release on Spanish knives at the end of the 19th century.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.
Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

...Well, the navajas with "globes" originated from France, so what are we to make of that ?...
So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail.

" Il s'agit bien d'un couteau de fabrication française, fin XIXème, début XXème. A l'époque, la France produisait beaucoup de couteaux pour l'exportation. Celui ci était destiné à l'Espagne... qui l'exportait à son tour au Mexique ! (d'où l'extrémité en forme de queue de crotale)".


…fixed blade knives were in all ways better as both tools and weapons, so why bother with complicated and labor intensive mechanisms?...
Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.


… Why were so many navajas of the 20th century inscribed with the ubiquitous `TOLEDO' inscription, when they were actually being made in Albacete and Santa Cruz De Mudela? A common guess is that the tourists wanted to buy a piece of famous Toledo steel. So it may well be the same with the carraca...
Good and pertinent point; notwithstanding that, despite the bulk of navajas production being Albacete and Mudela originated, also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period. Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

...What i find puzzling about the ratchets is that many navajas, not just Spanish but also Italian had this feature, yet so many had only three teeth, which came into play only at the final phases of opening or at the early stages of closure...
Probably the three teeth were just the start; then came the increasing of its quantity, a sign of traditional 'evolution'. I remember in my youth, people commenting that X person had a six cracks ‘navalha’. So it comes in Forton’s work, as in a copla here shown, where the singer is bragging about his seven muelles (springs/cracks) navaja:

"Mi navaja de Albacete,
que de muelles tiene siete,
Hiere, mata, pincha y raja.
Mi navaja es una alhaja,
si señor."


… the ratcheting noise doesn't stop anything from happening...
The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …


.

[fernando]

I went back to the pictures of a XVIII century Mudela navaja i once had. The picture quality is not so famous and the ratchet teeth are somehow worn but, might i make a point in that, once the blade accidently disengages from the main notch, are those little scoops that will prevent it from fully folding ... or are they no more than a noise carraca ?


.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando

Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution.

Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition.


Standing way before the knowledge of universal fencing techniques, i see in (navaja) field fighting terms that is a more remote move to try and grasp the opponent’s knife with a free hand than use it to for self protection; apart from scenes viewed in old movies, we have two drawings shown in Forton’s work where the free hand is used to wrap a custom piece, eventually a jacket, to use as a shield to parry the opponent’s blows. And i can only think that a propper way to hold a ratchet knife is to lay the thumb on the latch, an easy procedure to follow.

The traditional Spanish fight with knives was with some parrying implement in the off hand, usually a jacket or a hat, and the knife in the other, all in the manner of old rapier play. We know this from paintings, the writings of the fencing historian Egerton Castle and the surviving knife fighting in Latin America.


So indeed the globes came from France, as consistent with Forton’s ... but were they French ? although not worthing a valid fact, the Moors invasion also reached Southern France; but more valid is that there are no rattle snakes in France. In a quick research, we find a website where the French expert defines one of these "queue de crotal" tail navajas as being made for the Spanish market, which in turn exported them to Mexico, thus the reason for the handle with a rattle snake tail.

Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess......


Let it be no doubt that fixed blade knives are definitely more convenient for both daily and fighting use but, why not contemplating other conveniences like, for one, being able to fold them into half dimensions for better transport. Besides and more important, you could easily hurt yourself with an open navaja inside your pocket or behind your sash.

No doubt that in the smaller sizes folding knifes were and are considered much more convenient, but even with today's technology the intersection point with fixed blades is somewhere around 4"-5" blade length, dictated by weight and robustness.Yet the navajas of old had blades of 6"- 9 " And then there's the matter of poor speed of deployment with folders, which is a paramount consideration with a weapon.


.....also Toledo had its share, judging by Forton fig. 232, with a blade engraving ARTILLERIA TOLEDO, a name that would only occurr to that factory, during its “modern” end XIX century period.

Now you have opened a real can of worms and this merits a separate thread! :eek:

We have the same problem with the navajas that bear the brand (Spanish: Punzon) of Valero Jun of Saragoza. We don't know whether those knives were made in Spain or France and then sold with the distributor's name stamped onto them. This is remains a well entrenched practice in the cutlery industry, and has been for quite a long time.

If you have Forton's Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas De Coleccion, have a look on pg93 at #100, a photo of a very French looking navaja. Forton made this comment: Navaja tipica del artesano Valero Jun de Zaragosa, sin embargo la marca de su hoja dice `Navajas De Toledo'. Punzon falso? Ejemplo de que los navajeros toledanos sabian hacer a la perfeccion lo que se fabricaba en Aragon?

Sometime ago there was a lively debate on Spanish forums re this topic and the majority opinion was that the knives were made in France and distributed in Spain under the retailers name.

This conclusion was reached by considering that:

a) These knives were identical with those made in France;
b) by the mid 19th century the Spanish cutlery industry was in a very poor shape and imports from France were pouring into the country at the rate of over one million per year (see Forton); And
c) the workmanship was way above of the knives made in Spain at that time.

But of course, this is something else that will not be settled to everybody's satisfaction in a hurry!

Besides, quoting Forton’s work, several marks gathered by Santiago Palomares from the XVIII century (and earlier) Toledo sword smiths punzones were also present in precious blades of “cuchillos y navajas”… for what this is worth.

Can you please provide more details? Any mention of the typology of the navajas?


The point would not be that of preventing things from happening … but give the other side a chance for a fair fight … i would guess …

This would have been true of common folks, who often had very noisy and showy stand-offs without ever laying a blade on their opponents, and after making a display of bravura reconciled and went on to do other things. But I don't think that the `bandoleros' and other criminals, especially in the presidios, never mind the infamous barateros, were all that interested in a fair fight; But who knows, it was all a long time ago....

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hello Chris, if i may ...

... Can't comment much on this as I don't know, and unfortunately my French is limited to counting to six! These peculiar knife handle ends came into fashion in the 19th century, so by this time they would have known what a rattle snake was - Just a guess......
The point not being whether French cuttlers knew what a rattle snake was, but that of adopting a non territorial reptile as a home decor; certainly more plausible that they made these handles for those familiar with such snake, where there are some 27 sub-species - i would say ...


...Can you please provide more details? Any mention of the typology of the navajas? ...
Forton ... LA NAVAJA ANTIGUA ESPAÑOLA
Page 170/171
[Quoting] The 3th September 1772 is the day Francisco Santiago Palomares concludes his Noticia de la Fabrica de Espadas de Toledo which, for so many centuries until end XVII century ...
... We quote this author and work here for two fundamental reasons: the first is that although in principle he apparently referred exclusively to sword making, reality is different, once from the 93 punctions shown and identified, many of them are found in beautiful cuchillos and navajas, which indicates that these sword smiths equally dedicated themselves to the fabrication of short white weapons and domestic utensiles of determined category ...
... little intensity whould have had the guild life of Cuchilleros Toledanos during the last third of the XVIII when they, which had ordnances since 1689, required new ones in 1775, as noted by Larruga. Then Forton writes about the cuchilleros of Granada in 1776 ...and so on.

We can also see in the chapter dedicated to marks, quite a few from the XIX century FABRICA DE TOLEDO; but as expected no one personal mark of sword smiths, as specimens from so early age are not presently gathered ... or revealed to public.


... But I don't think that the `bandoleros' and other criminals, especially in the presidios, never mind the infamous barateros, were all that interested in a fair fight ...
Most probably those characters did not elect the noisy ratchet version ;).


.

[fernando]

... Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution...

... Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition...

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle. It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic, in lack of a better argument the effect of the rattle (carraca) serves nothing but dissuassion/intimidation.
One member recalls an anecdote:
"During the uprising on the 2nd May 1808 against the French army, the early morning gathered hundreds of people in Puerta del Sol, as news of various confrontations for Madrid were heating up their moods. Suddenly one only voice among the crowd shouted, Hurray for the French, Viva el Rey, Viva España. The following noise which followed that shout was that of hundreds of ratchets being unfolded one after the other, cri cri cri ... all with the same purpose ..."

Here is the link, for those familiar with castillian:

http://armasblancas.mforos.com/933172/6994070-por-que-la-carraca/

[Gonzalo G]

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the Frech were the enemies. That was the moment when the Spanish people rebelled against the French invaders and fought them with navajas, and tools for livestock management (rejones and garrochas) against the mameluke cavalry.

In the same thread from that forum they mention the intimidating effect of a repeating shotgun beign loaded. Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention. Bad quality of the materials in a mechanism does not invalidate the need of a mechanism, or its utility. I must agree that this mechanism originally has a safety purpose, which in time involved more cultural-oriented purposes. The sound of the ratchet is intimidating against an unarmed agressor, and same is the sound of loading a semi handgun. The potential effect of disuasiveness in this situation is undeniable. It is a way to stop an unarmed agressor. And it works!, but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it. But the the same apply for the case of the fireweapons. And also this could became also as an marketing identifier of this Spanish navajas, along their charcteristic traditional profile. Yes, as Fernando says, it could became a cultural-oriented tradition. But the original function was other.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,



The point not being whether French cuttlers knew what a rattle snake was, but that of adopting a non territorial reptile as a home decor; certainly more plausible that they made these handles for those familiar with such snake, where there are some 27 sub-species - i would say ...

If I understand you right, and please correct me if I don't, what you seem to be suggesting is that the "globules" feature on french navajas was catering for an export market that could relate that to rattle snakes. If so, then perhaps it may have started out out that way and the remained; Or as we say, was invited to lunch and remained for dinner. :D

Forton ... LA NAVAJA ANTIGUA ESPAÑOLA
Page 170/171
The 3th September 1772 is the day Francisco Santiago Palomares concludes his Noticia de la Fabrica de Espadas de Toledo which, for so many centuries until end XVII century ...
... We quote this author and work here for two fundamental reasons: the first is that although in principle he apparently referred exclusively to sword making, reality is different, once from the 93 punctions shown and identified, many of them are found in beautiful cuchillos and navajas, which indicates that these sword smiths equally dedicated themselves to the fabrication of short white weapons and domestic utensiles of determined category ...
... little intensity whould have had the guild life of Cuchilleros Toledanos during the last third of the XVIII when they, which had ordnances since 1689, required new ones in 1775, as noted by Larruga. Then Forton writes about the cuchilleros of Granada in 1776 ...and so on.

Many thanks. One problem we have here is that `navaja' in Spanish is a generic term for folding knife and not a specific typology. If it said something like "navaja de muelle", or "navaja de virola giratoria" then we would be on familiar terrain. But otherwise, it could have referred to just simple friction folders, very common to this day in Spain.



Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle.

Thanks for the link. I read that thread and it seems to me that other than the wear caused by the ratchet teeth, they were engaged in the same guessing game as we are.

I found posts 4 and 12 interesting.

Re post 19: Gonzalo is right in that the popular sentiment was against the French; Whereas your translation, as I read it, is ambiguous could be read as let us go over to their side. Something like "let us attack the French....", whilst not a literal translation, would have conveyed the intent better.


It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic,

I am very familiar with this all too common problem, particularly with the cheaper renditions.

A well made navaja ratchet has the peak of the teeth slightly rounded so that it does not cut away the back spring, which by necessity is softer than the blade.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention.

A point very well made!


......but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it.

Succintly put, this is the main problem with this hypothesis.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the French were the enemies...
I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him :o.

[fernando]

... If I understand you right, and please correct me if I don't, what you seem to be suggesting is that the "globules" feature on french navajas was catering for an export market that could relate that to rattle snakes...
Precisely ... and my suggestion comes from the categoric assumption of that French website apparent connoisseur.

If so, then perhaps it may have started out out that way and the remained; Or as we say, was invited to lunch and remained for dinner. :D...
As so often happens ... both with adopted features as with sticky guests :D .

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

Regarding another query re navajas by Richard, I was looking through my library on this subject and came across a reference by the distinguished Argentinean knife scholar Abel Domenech re the carraca.

Succinctly stated, he opines that the reason for it is lost in time, but may have been intended to provide additional security re accidental closure by providing backup notches to the main notch in case it failed. He attributes the poor quality of the early recycled steels used in making navajas for this added precaution. My own view on this is that the sloppy lockwork seen on too many navajas would also have been a contributing factor.

He adds, that a navaja with carraca can be opened silently by lifting the backspring away from the teeth.

I will add, that as far as cutting oneself whilst closing the knife, this is highly unlikely with old navajas on account the way the knife is usually held during this operation.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him :o.

Very understandable, Fernando. "A por los.." is an old castilian expression, not used anymore. Meaning more or less "Let's fall over the French" or, as Chris said, "Let's attack the French". The king referred was not Pepe Botella (José Bonaparte), as he was commonly called by the Spanish population for his excessive inclination toward drinking, but Fernado VII.
Regards

[fernando]

This is somehow raining in the wet but ...
Looks like Mr. Abel Domenech, with all his knowledge, doesn't have a doubteless explanation for the carraca either, as he starts by admiting that, the (real) reason for it is lost in time. That the noise of carracas may be prevented by lifting the backspring is evident; but the basic idea was to produce noise, or one would have bought a silent one, with a palanquilla only. And then i go again wondering whether the safety factor, sustained by some (several) opinions, could not be developed with techniques other than that of containing the said emphatic noise.
But definitely the carraca riddle is a geneal disease.
It is amazing how, in an comprehensice (328 pages) work called INTRODUCCION AL ESTUDIO DE LA CUCHILLERIA ARTISTICA DE ALBACETE, by José Sanchez Ferrer, we may see detailed pictures of navaja construction as well as detailed data on the birth of the navaja, complemented with carraca notes but, the reason for its existance versus the angle of safety ... zero words. However the preciousness in its making as well of its charismatic noise is well pointed out.
The author emphasizes that, having heard of carracas with up to fifteen pinions, the maximum he saw was one with twelve, kept in the National Antropology Museum. And according to what artisan Pepe Exposito told the author, a carraca is well made when the volume of the successive sounds that it emits when unfolding the blade go from minor to greater until the final one is noticed, this one having a different tone, the lodging of the blade in the spring.
We may see in the uploaded pictures that, at least one Albacete master makes the carrava teeth very sharp and inclined; possibly other techniques make round and softer.
Interesting also the author notes on the navaja date of birth, an issue often wondered and discussed.

Here is the ARTICLE (http://pandora.dipualba.es/high.raw?id=0000029980&name=00000001.original.pdf&a) and the written parts that i emphasize, so that my lousy translation may be corrected.


.

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you for the link, Fer!!

As you said, there is no absolute certainty about the subject. Only more or less reasonable probabilities. Unless we find unequivocal references on the primary sources.
Regards

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Thanks for posting the material on the navaja. I have that book and several others, but as you say nobody wants to commit themselves to an explanation.

Well, at least Abel Domenech tried.... His opinion re safety may or may not have been the main reason for the adoption of the carraca, but does make some kind of sense.

I think that nowadays it has become an expected feature by those who buy this obsolete knife - Makes a good conversation topic!

As for the date when the navaja appeared, that is also lost in the mist of time because there are no surviving specimens that predate 1699. In any event, dating navajas is very difficult because few had the year of manufacture stamped on them and the best one can do is to correlate the typology with paintings and other descriptions

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

He deals with the origins of the navaja at some length and concluded that the earliest reliably dated folding clasp knife that has been able to find goes back to 1699, but I have to point out that it is quite unlike what we would call a `navaja'.

Having stated this, he goes on to say that the navaja made its appearance in the 17th century, being mentioned by Cervantes as weapons, but these early references do not describe them with any precision, so all we know is that they were folding knives. Well, my take on this is that barber's razors go back to ancient times and also were used violently at times so....

As you rightly point out, folding knives have been around since Roman times, so the birth of the classical navaja, for lack of a better term, is a matter of arbitrary definition based on typology.
Chris

Chris, although I agree with you in many points, I must add that I still have my doubts about the bias or limitations in Forton's work. Or José Sanchez Ferrer's statements about the origin of the production of knives and navajas in Albacete, since more recent investigations has been made on this matter. About the origins of the navajas and since you mention it, Abel Domenech´s book on this subject, shows in page 3 a drawing of a roman navaja which in general terms has the general features of a modern navaja, though probably in a more primitive form and without a locking mechanism. As I understand, the navaja does not have to have a locking mechanism to be considered a navaja, but this a matter of typology. What calls my attention, is the fact that on the documents of the 13th Century from the city of Alcaraz on the province of Albacete, there are clear mentions on the tax imposed to the commerce of navajas. And they use this specific word, "navajas", well before Cervantes. Please see the book by Aurelio Pretel Marín et al, Alcaraz: Del Islam al Consejo Castellano, published by the Instituto de Estudios Albacetenses “Don Juan Manuel”, Alcaraz, Spain, 2013 (it is for free online). On the page 325, you can see the articles taxed by this city, and the navajas are one of them. The tax apply for a dozen of them. Please see for sourself:

http://pandora.dipualba.es/high.raw?id=0000005158&name=00000001.original.pdf&attachment=0000005158.pdf

What does it says to you? To me, it says that the subject is not completely investigated. Maybe because those old items disapeared in time or were destroyed, maybe also because this production ended with the christian conquest, as many other valuable Moorish industries (the production of silk, rugs and weapons made of wootz, as indicated on the sources, but it is the matter for another thread). It must be added this quote about the production of edged weapons in Alcaraz:

"En el campo de la artesanía, pocos vestigios nos han quedado que puedan
arrojar luz, pero son los suficientes para hacer ver que debió desarrollarse en
Alcaraz la orfebrería, al menos a finales de siglo. En 1.401 firman juntos un
documento dos plateros de la villa: Alfonso Vel y Juan Ruíz (262). También se
dió allí una temprana tradición de los trabajos de forja y, sobre todo, de
fabricación de cuchillería y armas, en los que destacaban los mudéjares. Un
fragmento mínimo de carta que conservamos (263 ) nos habla de que los moros huidos antes de 1.382, a causa de la presión fiscal, eran "ferreros e cochilleros". Posiblemente, algunos fueran artesanos establecidos por su cuenta, pero es más probable que, en su mayor parte, estos "oficiales" trabajaran por cuenta ajena. Ello explicaría quizás el hecho de que el patriciado alcaraceño solicitase de la Reina que eximiese de tributos de aljama a estos infieles, para que pudieran volver a su labor. De todas formas, la crisis de la comunidad islámica arrastró también, al parecer, la de la cuchillería y armería local. Sabemos que, en 1.393, algunos alcaraceños compraban en Murcia sus 'fojas de armas" (264)."

Pretel Marín, Aurelio, Una ciudad castellana en los siglos XIV y XV (Alcaraz 1300-1475), Instituto de Estudios Albacetenses "Don Juan Manuel", 1978, pág.61.

In a few words, Alcaraz was a center of production of knives; those associated with this production were charateristically muslims and, this production decayed or completely dissapeared because the muslim knifemakers and blacksmiths didn't want to live anymore in this city (or in Spain, basically due the extreme religious intolerance). This also explains why the production of navajas was an item already contemplated in the taxation system already mentioned from the 13th Century.

Now, what kid of navajas were produced? I don't believe they were barber razors. Muslims and christian alike were not adept to shave, as the Romans and Greeks. This is why I believe that the history of the navaja in Spain is incomplete and that the participation of the musim population in this history has been deliberately ignored by past researchers. And that the stylistic features of many traditional Spanish navaja are in fact muslim. There is more information on the subject, demostrating that in the city of Albacete there were muslim knifemakers even in the 15th Century.

REgards

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

On Forton:

You make valid points and I too have picked up on some things in Forton's books that left me scratching my head. But then, I can pretty much say the same about most books that deal with similar subjects.

Writing about old knives is not of mainstream academic interest, and the task usually befalls upon enthuisasts with limited resources who work for the sheer love of it, for there is no financial reward in such research.

I should add that Forton is a Spaniard, who is university educated and as of recent, had a collection of some 500 pieces, considered by many as the best in the world. And this collection has been acquired by the Albacete cutlery museum, so he was much better positioned than most who did, or would venture to study this subject.

So all in all, with whatever perceived faults his works may have, Forton is the best we have until someone comes along and writes something better. However I do not think that this is likely to happen because he gathered all the readily accessible data and it will be very difficult to improve on this, other than write additional footnotes or make minor corrections. And I should add that all the other serious writers on this subject use his works as the point of departure. Of course, what should have happened years ago was a revision of this book, but so far nothing has come to pass.


On the subject of pre 18th century navajas: As I said in an earlier post, the hard evidence is missing and this pushes us into speculation territory.

There was a thread here some five years ago re a paper discussing navajas found in a 17th century galleon. Unfortunately, the author of the paper did not produce any evidence of what we call these days a navaja. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15626 and http://www.melfisher.org/pdf/Navajas-of-the-1622_Galleons.pdf

Be that all as it may, I did say in my post #32 of this thread that since folding knives have been around since antiquity, what we consider a `navaja' is a matter of arbitrarily identifying it with a certain typology. So, as things stand at present, if what we call a navaja is a folding knife with a more or less large blade, say 5” plus, which can be locked into the open position, then we cannot regress any further back than the 18th century. With all this said, if we include friction folders, then we can probably go back to Roman times.

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Well said, Chris. And with all their limitations, I am very grateful to those men who in their free time have written on and shared their love for those items. Without them, we would be in much greater darkness.
Abrazo
G

[fernando]

... I think that nowadays it has become an expected feature by those who buy this obsolete knife - Makes a good conversation topic!...
Yes indeed, Chris; specially handled by two so knowledged members ... and resistant to brain pickers like this humble servant of yours :shrug: . Surely the info you have exchanged about this subject is of interest to many others, this thread having already reached almost a thousand views.
Despite these knives being an obsolete "tool" in practical terms, they surely constitute a rather interesting collectible item.
I regret having got rid of my few examples; the only one i have left is this palanquilla 'functional' example ... with 35 mm. (1 1/2") length open and weighing less than 1 gram. Note the care had by the "smith" to replicate all components with their indicated mterials ... and accept my appologies for this impertinent inclusion :o.

.

[kronckew]

Y...palanquilla 'functional' example ... with 35 mm. (1 1/2") length open and weighing less than 1 gram. ...
.
nice little one. if you ever come to the UK, carrying that one would be illegal to carry without a good reason and could get you a few years in jail as, due to the locking mechanism it is considered an 'offensive weapon'. a man recently was arrested because he had one of similar size on his key chain 'without good reason' the judge was a bit lenient and only gave him a large fine, and a few months in jail.

as a real antique offensive weapon, it fits in here of course. :)

[fernando]

... nice little one. if you ever come to the UK, carrying that one would be illegal ... as a real antique offensive weapon, it fits in here of course. :)
I will be prepaired for that, Wayne; maybe it is not so offensive nor a weapon, as only a graceful minature, but certainly an antique one, by the looks of it :cool:.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

But does it have a carraca? :D

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

kronckew,


nice little one. if you ever come to the UK, carrying that one would be illegal to carry without a good reason and could get you a few years in jail as, due to the locking mechanism it is considered an 'offensive weapon'.


As was the case in old Spain. It wasn't the blade size but the lock that determined its potential as a weapon.

....a man recently was arrested because he had one of similar size on his key chain 'without good reason' the judge was a bit lenient and only gave him a large fine, and a few months in jail.

The Brits are lenient - In Spain he would have been sent to the galleys! :D

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

...But does it have a carraca? :D
No Chris, not a single crack :shrug:.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

No Chris, not a single crack :shrug:.

As a bard once sang:

“If it ain’t got no carraca,
It ain’t much of a navaja”
:D :D :D :D

Cheers
Chris

[Gonzalo G]

Yes indeed, Chris; specially handled by two so knowledged members ... and resistant to brain pickers like this humble servant of yours :shrug: . Surely the info you have exchanged about this subject is of interest to many others, this thread having already reached almost a thousand views.
Despite these knives being an obsolete "tool" in practical terms, they surely constitute a rather interesting collectible item.
I regret having got rid of my few examples; the only one i have left is this palanquilla 'functional' example ... with 35 mm. (1 1/2") length open and weighing less than 1 gram. Note the care had by the "smith" to replicate all components with their indicated mterials ... and accept my appologies for this impertinent inclusion :o.

.


Oh, Fernando, you are quite something...you don´t forget even to make irony.

Well, in my country is not prohibited to have navajas of any size...only to stick them to a neighbor...but authorities are lenient about this...since people is machinegunned on the streets by a dozens every day...a matter of priorities. :D :D

So, I am open to receive gifts, specially a navaja de carraca, since I don't have any. Never did. Though I have examined some of them...

Regards

[Rick]

Here's a little one I picked up some years ago.
Six inches open; 5 clicks with the last one being the lock.

[fernando]

... As a bard once sang:

“If it ain’t got no carraca,
It ain’t much of a navaja”
:D :D :D :D ...
That bard is not an accredited one :rolleyes:.

[fernando]

Here's a little one I picked up some years ago.
Six inches open; 5 clicks with the last one being the lock.
You know this is a common tourist recuerdo, Rick :o; surely younger than any of your preferred collectibles ;). You must acquire the real thing :cool:.

[Rick]

You know this is a common tourist recuerdo, Rick :o; surely younger than any of your preferred collectibles ;). You must acquire the real thing :cool:.

Of course I know its a souvenir Fernando. :rolleyes:
I have too much money in sharp things as it is so I'll settle for this. :o

[fernando]

Of course I know its a souvenir Fernando. :rolleyes: ...
I know you know, Rick; my unfortunate approach :o.

[Rick]

At least it makes the desired sound when opening. :shrug:

[Lee]

Sometimes when I watch Forged in Fire I feel so stupid. I have seen and may even have antique examples of what the smiths are to make - but I never recall having heard the terminology before. While attempting to clear some of the accumulations of modern life in my attic I have found - buried in a stack of old magazines - an important reference to ethnographic arms in popular American culture - the Atlanta Cutlery catalog for 1996!

Peripherally relevant to this thread, here are listings for the noisy navaja!

[fernando]

A rather opportune entry, Lee.
... And a very 'romantic' means to expose the carraca noise saga; not without a pretty fair dosis of realism, though.
Thanks for sharing that paper.

[Miguel]

Here is one I picked up from an "Artes de Toledo" shop in Catalonia about 15 years ago which is a dead ringer in dimensions and weight etc. to the first illustration in Lee`s Atlanta Cutlery catalogue.
Miguel

[fernando]

Rick:

That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out...

Just a little note, if i may, Chris; in this context, the term 'Venta' refers to a 'Inn' (sort of boarding house). In fact, the legend poem says:

"Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil".

As if the bragging dwarf freqüented a determined Inn, that of Candil.

I accidently see that the term appears often in Cervantes work where, for one, Dom Quixote envisions all Ventas as Castles.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Fernando,

Just a little note, if i may, Chris; in this context, the term 'Venta' refers to a 'Inn' (sort of boarding house). In fact, the legend poem says:

"Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil".

As if the bragging dwarf freqüented a determined Inn, that of Candil.

I accidently see that the term appears often in Cervantes work where, for one, Dom Quixote envisions all Ventas as Castles.

Thanks for the correction, but you already did so back in 2017 with post #24 of this thread.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

So sorry Chris. No wonder, Alzheimer at my age :o.