Two Indian Knives for interest and/or comment

[Miguel]

Hello Everyone,

The first one, I believe, is called a The O/L"Tigers Tooth" and has an O/L of 13 ins with a blade 8.5 ins lg x 4 ins wide at its widest part. the hilt is bone and the scabbard is of wood covered in leather with a brass chape.

The second one has a "Kukri" shaped blade with a pearl and greenstone hilt and short steel Quillon's. The O/L is 9.75 ins having a blade length of 6.5 ins. The scabbard is of wood covered in leather with a steel chape.
Thank you
Miguel

[Miguel]

Obviously not interesting enough for comment :o
Miguel

[Rick]

The blade of the second one is appealing visually.
My 2 cents.

[Miguel]

Thanks Rick :D

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here must be one of the Indian Classics... The Tiger Tooth... In my view one of the most efficient dagger blades ever made. Often with a reinforced tip for piercing armour/thick clothing and with chiselled blade making for a lighter stronger blade. I assume the tang goes right through to the typical 3 lobed pommel and there is one I saw with a tiger striped horn hilt ~ at 2 below..

See1. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2495
See2. http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s995_full.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Miguel]

Thank you for your reply Ibrahiim and particularly for the links showing two very good examples of the "Tigers Tooth" dagger. Your assumption regarding the tang is correct.
Regards
Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Miguel,

Things are pretty clear for the Tiger Tooth dagger but I see no comments on the second one.

In my oppinion, the second one is a more artistic XX century Indian interpretation of a Khukuri, hence not an etnographically correct Indian knife. Yet, it appears to have a very well made, sturdy and effective blade.

If I were you, I would test the Tiger Tooth dagger for wootz, as most examples I have seen were made of wootz.

Regards,

Marius

[Tatyana Dianova]

For the second one please take a look here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18877&highlight=pesh
By the way, there were very good Indian antique Kukris as well. There are some examples on the Kukri Forum. But this one is of course different.
The Tiger Tooth is pretty late too, I believe from the second half of the 19th century - beginning of 20th century.

[Miguel]

Thank you Marius for your reply, I had never thought of the second one as an Indian Kukri. I have always thought it was Indian made as a hunting knife for a European with it having quillons and a false edge. With regard to the first one I don't think it is wootz I cant see any pattern in the steel.

Thank you also Tatyana, the link was very interesting. I also agree with your dating.
Regards
Miguel

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Miguel,
Are you sure that the Tiger's Tooth has 4 inches (10cm) at the widest part of the blade? It seems disproportionate with its total lenght, but I can be mistaken. The surface of the blade looks as it could be made from multilaminated steel, but photos are tricky.
Regards

[Rick]

If you ever get bored with that kukri............. :)

[Miguel]

Hi Miguel,
Are you sure that the Tiger's Tooth has 4 inches (10cm) at the widest part of the blade? It seems disproportionate with its total lenght, but I can be mistaken. The surface of the blade looks as it could be made from multilaminated steel, but photos are tricky.
Regards

Hello Gonzalo, well spotted, thanks for pointing it out I must be cracking up :D
I have checked again and the blade is 2 ins wide just below the hilt then 1.75 ins. Not sure about the blade looks like carbon steel to me.
Regards
Miguel

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you, Miguel. The multilamination can be made of many steels, and it was made in the old times from simple carbon steel. Several plates were forge-welded to make a blade.
Regards

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Gonzalo, well spotted, thanks for pointing it out I must be cracking up :D
I have checked again and the blade is 2 ins wide just below the hilt then 1.75 ins. Not sure about the blade looks like carbon steel to me.
Regards
Miguel

Hello Miguel,

Wootz IS carbon steel and when polished, it is practically undistinguishable from plain carbon steel.

I agree with the age of the blade suggested in previous postings and with the high probability it is not wootz. However, it remains a slight probability that the blade is older than it was estimated and it is made of wootz. And I would explore this possibility.

Anyhow, both are very nice and well made blades!
:)

[Miguel]

Hello Marius, thanks for you comments. When I have a little more time I will do as you suggest and test for wootz.

I have been checking some cleaners we use at home for various jobs and wonder if anyone of these would be suitable for etching the steel.
White vinegar.

Brick acid ( 19% HCl ).

Toilet cleaner ( 9% HCl )
Regards
Miguel

[Ian]

Miguel:

Apologies for jumping in here, but please do not use HCl. Others may have a better experience than I have, but I think HCl is dangerous to use on weapons. Hydrochloric acid (a.k.a. muriatic acid) in those concentrations is very corrosive and will etch carbon steel darkly. I have had no success with trying to bring out patterns consistently with more dilute solutions of HCl.

Vinegar is an excellent etchant but may take some time depending on the amount of acetic acid present. Vinegar's acidity will deteriorate with age as the acetic acid is converted to other compounds.

Ian.

[Miguel]

Hello Ian, thank you very much for your advice, much appreciated, most likely prevented a catastrophe, white vinegar it is then. I just purchased a new quantity so should be OK :) Thanks again
Miguel

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Ian, thank you very much for your advice, much appreciated, most likely prevented a catastrophe, white vinegar it is then. I just purchased a new quantity so should be OK :) Thanks again
Miguel

Hello Miguel,

White vinegar is not likely to work (but it is very good for cleaning the white deposits on the kitchen sink and shower).

You should use either Nital (around 4%) or Ferric Chloride (around 20%).

Diluted Perma Blue will also work but you need to employ the "reversed" process: etch the whole blade to uniform black, then gently wipe the excess blackening with cotton swabs and Pre Lim, until you get the right degree of etching to reveal the watering.

Also please note the surface to be etched should be polished to 2000-3000 grit.

For more details see the link below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732&highlight=etching+wootz

Success! :)

[estcrh]

If I were you, I would test the Tiger Tooth dagger for wootz, as most examples I have seen were made of wootz.

From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya, and they are a type of jambiya....one type has a thick blade and the tang is also thick. The other type is a much less well made type.....a thinner blade, a bit flexible even and also thin at the tang.....for a person of less wealth, or a youth maybe, who knows but there is a world of difference between the two types...I also have one of the lesser types and it is certainly not wootz. hard to tell with a photo but in hand the difference is clear.

Miquel can tell which type his is.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fa/61/05/fa6105f48054c8ba352bf42417fc9eda.png

Thick blade and tang.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/61/4b/09/614b09afd6bb7d7ed89c96f53115e7b8.jpg

[mariusgmioc]

From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.


Thank you for the info! Very useful!

[estcrh]

Here must be one of the Indian Classics... The Tiger Tooth... In my view one of the most efficient dagger blades ever made. Often with a reinforced tip for piercing armour/thick clothing and with chiselled blade making for a lighter stronger blade. I assume the tang goes right through to the typical 3 lobed pommel and there is one I saw with a tiger striped horn hilt ~ at 2 below..

See1. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=2495
See2. http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s995_full.html

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

These are good examples of the two types I mentioned, one with ivory hilt and wootz, the other with horn and not wootz.

The family of daggers known as Tiger Teeth are coming from North India, They are characterized by the slender curved blade, usually with reinforced edges and slightly thickened tip. The hilt is of a full tang style, with big bolsters, wide grip strap and very typical three lobed pommel. This specific one has a fine 8 1/2 inches blade forged from good wootz (Damascus) steel with fine gold koftgari work on the ricasso bolsters and grip strap. The grips are ivory. Total length 13 1/2 inches.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e0/d8/aa/e0d8aa1aa2b01bbb4983b5694de703d0.png


Indian tiger tooth jambiya, 33cms long when sheathed.
Out of the sheath the dagger is 30cms long with a broad 20cm blade.
The hilt is a very well selected section of horn, cut and polished to resemble Tiger stripes. The blade has two broad central fullers, a chiseled forte and a thickened armour piercing point. The sheath is timber inners covered in a finely grained leather that is finished with a pierced brass end with a bud finial.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/29/64/fa/2964fa564bfe5ead25ef3cbce922055a.png

[estcrh]

The second one has a "Kukri" shaped blade with a pearl and greenstone hilt and short steel Quillon's. The O/L is 9.75 ins having a blade length of 6.5 ins. The scabbard is of wood covered in leather with a steel chape.
Thank you
Miguel
Not just a "kukri" shaped blade, it is an Indian kukri, nice example, I have not seen this type of handle on a kukri, the same type of work usually seen on Indian daggers.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/31/ee/dc/31eedcbad70dc70e10b804cde589c1bb.jpg

[Miguel]

From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya, and they are a type of jambiya....one type has a thick blade and the tang is also thick. The other type is a much less well made type.....a thinner blade, a bit flexible even and also thin at the tang.....for a person of less wealth, or a youth maybe, who knows but there is a world of difference between the two types...I also have one of the lesser types and it is certainly not wootz. hard to tell with a photo but in hand the difference is clear.

Miquel can tell which type his is.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fa/61/05/fa6105f48054c8ba352bf42417fc9eda.png

Thick blade and tang.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/61/4b/09/614b09afd6bb7d7ed89c96f53115e7b8.jpg

Hello estcrh,
Thank you for the info from which I would say mine is a lesser type. Another reason I think this is the line engraving at the Rivas so. The better quality one look to be chiselled decoration.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya, and they are a type of jambiya....one type has a thick blade and the tang is also thick. The other type is a much less well made type.....a thinner blade, a bit flexible even and also thin at the tang.....for a person of less wealth, or a youth maybe, who knows but there is a world of difference between the two types...I also have one of the lesser types and it is certainly not wootz. hard to tell with a photo but in hand the difference is clear.

Miquel can tell which type his is.

Thin blade, thin tang, not wootz.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/fa/61/05/fa6105f48054c8ba352bf42417fc9eda.png

Thick blade and tang.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/61/4b/09/614b09afd6bb7d7ed89c96f53115e7b8.jpg

Hello estcrh,
Thank you for the info from which I would say mine is a lesser type. Another reason I think this is the line engraving at the Rivas so. The better quality one look to be chiselled decoration.
Regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Look at the dagger with the blue background. Do you see the peacocks on the blade?
You often see them on early southern katars.
Ok, they are not easy to see, but with a bit of experience it should be possible.

[estcrh]

Look at the dagger with the blue background. Do you see the peacocks on the blade?
You often see them on early southern katars.
Ok, they are not easy to see, but with a bit of experience it should be possible.
Here is Runjeets description, he also mentions "South India".

Indian tiger tooth jambiya, 18th century, The blade is earlier and very rare, similar to blades found on hooded Katar from the Vijaynagar empire of South India (1336-1646 AD). The blade was probably traded into North India where it was mounted on this hilt, there is a possibility that the whole dagger was made in South India (The Deccan) in the North Indian ‘Tiger-Tooth’ style using a local blade.

[estcrh]

Hello estcrh,
Thank you for the info from which I would say mine is a lesser type. Another reason I think this is the line engraving at the Rivas so. The better quality one look to be chiselled decoration.
Regards
Miguel
Miguel, yours is in excellent condition, it looks like the chape has been polished. When you put several examples of the same type together you can see the similarities.


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/54/ea/fe/54eafeab4d4323a6429465fc26935662.jpg

[Miguel]

Hello estcrh, I see what you mean they are almost identical. The scabbard and chape for this type of knife follow a similar design as do the knives, interesting.

Regarding my knife with a kukri type blade, I agree that it is Indian as made in India with an Indian style blade but I don't see it as an Indian Kukri. I have a number of kukris and the shortlist blade is 11ins, kukris are far larger weapons. In my opinion I still think it is a hunting knife made for a European. Many years ago I saw a similar size knife in a dealers shop which had a jade /green stone, slab hilt and was told by the dealer that it had been made in India as a hunting knife for a member of the British military :shrug: The size just doesn't seem right to me to be used as a kukri in my opinion.
Regards
Miguel

[estcrh]

Regarding my knife with a kukri type blade, I agree that it is Indian as made in India with an Indian style blade but I don't see it as an Indian Kukri. I have a number of kukris and the shortlist blade is 11ins, kukris are far larger weapons.
Kukri come in many different shapes and sizes.

http://www.random-abstract.com/kukri/all-kurkri-01-small.jpg

[Miguel]

Hello estcrh, nice selection. Have you any images of Kukris with a false back edge similar to the blade of my knife? I have not seen one which is another reason for my believing it to be a custom made knife.
Regards
Miguel

[estcrh]

Hello estcrh, nice selection. Have you any images of Kukris with a false back edge similar to the blade of my knife? I have not seen one which is another reason for my believing it to be a custom made knife.
Regards
MiguelI do not remember seeing another one like yours, either the blade or hilt. If I run into one I will post it here.

[Gavin Nugent]

From what I have observed there are two types of Indian tiger tooth jambiya, and they are a type of jambiya....one type has a thick blade and the tang is also thick.

Don't get too caught on about the thick and thin tangs that you presented and I think thick and thin would also need to be quantified.
There is certainly age between the examples presented here but the tangs on those noted as thick are not actually seen, what is seen is a grip strap.
With consideration to weapons typically found with grip straps, Kilij, Yataghan, Khyber knives etc, for the most part, the grip slabs are pinned through the tang but sit well clear of the tang and the tangs on these weapons are no thicker than any other weapon of the time place or period.
I am certain there are variances in thickness with age, but I do not believe it is all that vast at all.

Gavin

[estcrh]

Don't get too caught on about the thick and thin tangs that you presented and I think thick and thin would also need to be quantified.
There is certainly age between the examples presented here but the tangs on those noted as thick are not actually seen, what is seen is a grip strap.
With consideration to weapons typically found with grip straps, Kilij, Yataghan, Khyber knives etc, for the most part, the grip slabs are pinned through the tang but sit well clear of the tang and the tangs on these weapons are no thicker than any other weapon of the time place or period.
I am certain there are variances in thickness with age, but I do not believe it is all that vast at all.

GavinGavin, maybe I should have said that I have never seen a tiger tooth jambiya without a grip strap that had a wootz blade, I believe that the examples I posted that I described as being "thin" have no grip strap. You have certainly seen more examples than I have, do you remember ever seeing one of the lower quality ones with a wootz blade?

[Miguel]

I do not remember seeing another one like yours, either the blade or hilt. If I run into one I will post it here.

Cheers.
Miguel

[Silver John]

Hello estcrh, nice selection. Have you any images of Kukris with a false back edge similar to the blade of my knife? I have not seen one which is another reason for my believing it to be a custom made knife.
Regards
Miguel


Hi Miguel,

I know you were addressing another member, but I thought I'd chime in. I have seen a number of these knives over the years, though never in the flesh. IMHO it's definitely a style of blade, made over an extended period of time and in varying levels of quality.

Here are a few examples I found with a quick google search.


http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%201_zpsez7alnrg.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%203%20poor%20quality_zpsslk67doh.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%202_zpstl5mkihn.jpg http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%204_zpsqnk83fvy.jpg

As you can see, there's a fair bit of variance, I think you picked up a nice example.

Regards

[estcrh]

Hi Miguel,

I know you were addressing another member, but I thought I'd chime in. I have seen a number of these knives over the years, though never in the flesh. IMHO it's definitely a style of blade, made over an extended period of time and in varying levels of quality.

Here are a few examples I found with a quick google search.


http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%201_zpsez7alnrg.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%203%20poor%20quality_zpsslk67doh.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%202_zpstl5mkihn.jpg http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag130/SilverJohn9/Crossguard%204_zpsqnk83fvy.jpg

As you can see, there's a fair bit of variance, I think you picked up a nice example.

RegardsGood job, what search words did you use? They look like a kukri varient.

[Silver John]

I remembered seeing a few examples with jade handles, so I searched for "Indian kukri jade handle" and went from there.

There are three more similar examples in this thread too: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=83113

They're described as "early tourist kukri (1920-40) Northern India"

[Miguel]

Hello Silver John, you have made my day, thank you for your info and pics I am much obliged. I can see them being tourist souvenirs but that does not rule out them being sold as hunting knives for European tourists :)
Regards
Migue

[estcrh]

Regarding my knife with a kukri type blade, I agree that it is Indian as made in India with an Indian style blade but I don't see it as an Indian Kukri. Miguel......"early tourist kukri (1920-40) Northern India"

[Jens Nordlunde]

Eric, did you see the peacocks??
Seldom something is written about the decoration, when it is hard to see what is shown, but not many seem to be interested in the 'hidden messages'.
I have often been wondering why?
Jens

[Miguel]

Miguel......"early tourist kukri (1920-40) Northern India"

Yes everything seems to point to that fact.

[Miguel]

Eric, did you see the peacocks??
Seldom something is written about the decoration, when it is hard to see what is shown, but not many seem to be interested in the 'hidden messages'.
I have often been wondering why?
Jens

Hello Jens, I think you may have answered your own question.
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

I find the dagger with the blue background shown in post 19 interesting, as I think it is a former 17th century karar from south India, changed into a dagger in the 19th century, when the south Indian armouries was sacked, and more tourist pieces were needed.
The decoration on the blade is important, but one can not see the fullers clearly from the pictures. I do, however, think that the fullers may show this change if they can be examined.

[estcrh]

Eric, did you see the peacocks??
Seldom something is written about the decoration, when it is hard to see what is shown, but not many seem to be interested in the 'hidden messages'.
I have often been wondering why?
JensJens, you have a trained eye from many years of looking at good examples. Ever since I read what you have had to say about unseen (to most people) images I have been looking closer but often I can not see what is there until someone points it out.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jens, you have a trained eye from many years of looking at good examples. Ever since I read what you have had to say about unseen (to most people) images I have been looking closer but often I can not see what is there until someone points it out.Dont worry. It takes quite some time, and a lot of studying - but in the end...

[Silver John]

Hello Jens,

I'd like to ask, do you see the peacocks in the gilt sections, or in the negative of the bare steel? Or both?

I was recently looking at peacock imagery on some kukris, so perhaps I'm just seeing them everywhere, but I can see two small ones in the gilt and two large peacocks in the negative.

Are there any threads, or reference materials on the Peacock imagery? I'd like to learn more on the topic.

Regards

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hmm, I only see two peacocks, shown in the gold decoration.
They are easier to see on the katar attached.
Have a look at the katar and the dagger. Do you see why I think the dagger originally was a katar?
Btw on the katar you can see four peacocks, two on the blade and two on the hand guard.

[Silver John]

Unbelievably I didn't spot those peacocks!

I'll have to see if my very basic photoshop skills will allow me to point out what I see. Though I strongly suspect what I am seeing will be more like a case of faces in the clouds.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Like Eric writes in post 33. He has never seen this kind of dagger with a wootz blade. Neither have I as I can remember.
This is an old minupilated kater blade, likely done end of 18th century or early 19th century.

[spiritualwarrior1978]

That is anice kukri, I have seen one of those somewhere before. Like someone said previously if you ever get bored...... it would match a few of my pesh kabz/chooses with mother of pearl inlay :)