Austrian hussar sabre for ID

[Victrix]

This is believed to be a mid 18thC Austrian hussar sabre. I wonder if someone is able to give me more information about it; where it might have been used and by whom? The hilt and scabbard metal parts are all brass. The tang end on the pommel is covered by an almond shaped brass plaque. There's a hole in the grip for a cord to tie around the wrist. The blade is quite elastic (not stiff, rigid) and worn. It's got a shallow fuller on each side. On one side can be seen the remains of inscriptions of a star in between two suns and further out I think there's a faint large man in the moon. The scabbard is made of wood with black leather and brass covering. The sword is overall approximately 87cm long. I cleaned the brass which was very dirty and had green oxidation on parts.

Many thanks for any feedback!

[Jim McDougall]

18th century Austrian officers sabre around 1750-60s as noted.....beautiful example!! Need to check Wagner and others for more.
The usual astral motif.

[Victrix]

18th century Austrian officers sabre around 1750-60s as noted.....beautiful example!! Need to check Wagner and others for more.
The usual astral motif.

Many thanks for your kind comments, Jim.

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, I had hoped to add more, but now realize that these resources are not presently at hand here in the bookmobile! I know that these are pictured in the huge Wagner volume (1967), and the paperback by Moudry on Hapsburg swords.
Sabres of this form and styling (yours is a wonderfully wide blade) are known distinctly as Austrian of the 18th c. and used by hussars. There are so many campaigns and wars in the Continent in which these saw use it is hard to say.
War of the Polish Succession (1733-38; Russo-Turk War (1735-39); and most importantly War of Austrian Succession (1740-48.....then war against Prussia.
A sabre remarkably similar in mounts (brass with scabbard openings) was used by the well known Count Hadik von Futak ( Andreas Graf Hadik)...a notorious pain in Frederick the Great's 'you know what'! :)

These blade decorating motifs were well known through the 18th century and it seems many of these blades were from centers in Styria, as well as of course Solingen.
Maybe others will have these references at hand, but this is what I can recall offhand.
Incredibly stunning example!

[Victrix]

Victrix, I had hoped to add more, but now realize that these resources are not presently at hand here in the bookmobile! I know that these are pictured in the huge Wagner volume (1967), and the paperback by Moudry on Hapsburg swords.
Sabres of this form and styling (yours is a wonderfully wide blade) are known distinctly as Austrian of the 18th c. and used by hussars. There are so many campaigns and wars in the Continent in which these saw use it is hard to say.
War of the Polish Succession (1733-38; Russo-Turk War (1735-39); and most importantly War of Austrian Succession (1740-48.....then war against Prussia.
A sabre remarkably similar in mounts (brass with scabbard openings) was used by the well known Count Hadik von Futak ( Andreas Graf Hadik)...a notorious pain in Frederick the Great's 'you know what'! :)

These blade decorating motifs were well known through the 18th century and it seems many of these blades were from centers in Styria, as well as of course Solingen.
Maybe others will have these references at hand, but this is what I can recall offhand.
Incredibly stunning example!

Yes thank you once again, Jim. I don't have Moudry's book unfortunately, but this sabre looks similar to the one on p.402 in Wagner's book but without the FRINGIA inscription. The blade might have had this inscription once, but it's now quite worn as mentioned previously.

I heard about the exploits of Count Hadik when I was in Budapest (their National Museum is highly recommended, by the way!). King Frederick was so humiliated that he allegedly refused to speak to Hadik after that.

[Jim McDougall]

I will try to get hold of the Moudry book, but think it will simply conform to what Wagner had. The FRINGIA inscriptions I think were on Styrian blades, and I agree these were shallowly inscribed so may have worn off or become indiscernible over this long.

The Austrian swords were the key influence for British military swords in the last part of the 18th century, as LeMarchant was attached to their units in Flanders on campaign in I think 1770s. In any case, the heavy cavalry pallasch was influenced by their M1769 sword....the light cavalry sabres by their sabres of that period . These became the M1796 heavy and light cavalry regulation swords.

The British M1788 sabre had influences from these East European sabres as well, and the open panel scabbard was distinctively present in these British examples.

Lots of history in this sword, and interesting note on the rancor by Frederick toward Hadik!

[corrado26]

The Husar troops originally came in the 15th to 16th century from Poland, Romania, Croatia and mainly from Hungary, so most of the "Austrian" Husar sabres are of Hungarian origin. Some fotos of my former collection may be of some interest.
corrado26

[corrado26]

More fotos:

[Victrix]

More fotos:

Corrado, many thanks for sharing your photos with us. That was quite a collection! Where did you obtain those sabres? The last one was particularly nice.

I agree with you that the hussar is essentially Hungarian in origin although Hungary was much bigger in size then and included other nations. Stephen Bathory (Transylvanian prince) brought the Hungarian hussars to Poland when he became king there. I read somewhere that "real" Hungarian hussars would only have sabre hilts made from iron (gilded or otherwise). There was a Hungarian general who allegedly won three duels by cutting through his opponents softer brass hilts (sounds like a ferocious fellow!). Given that my sabre above has a brass hilt I termed it an Austrian hussar sabre. Not sure whether this is technically correct or not.

[fernando]

...Some fotos of my former collection may be of some interest...
Beautiful pices indeed :cool: .

[Jim McDougall]

I very much second Fernando's comment!! Fantastic pieces!

I have not yet found the book I mentioned...it is a paperback.
"Edged Weapons:Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy 16th-20thc"
Jan Sach & Petr Moudry
This is primarily an identification handbook, captioned in three languages, but text is limited.

Victrix, excellent and concise insight regarding the 'hussar' development in these regions, which became the standard for European light cavalry.

I think the notion that the hussars evolved in 'Hungary', as mentioned, is very much as described, as the Hapsburg Empire with Hungary as its epicenter, broadly encompassed so many countries in Europe. Hungary became more of a collective term used descriptively by writers in earlier times.

Also, according to Jan Ostrowski, in "Origins of the Polish Sabre" (1979, p.222 ), "....Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for the 17th c. records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturers and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabres have Styrian and Genovese blades often marked with crescent moons and inscription Genoa, Fringia and Francia".

It seems that even with the strong favor for 'Hungarian' blades in Arabia presumed them to be from there, and termed them accordingly 'Magyar' ( though in Arabian of course). I have had Bedouin sabres which were clearly marked with the so called 'Transylvanian knot', essentially talismanic or magic oriented devices and wording.

There is a great deal of colorful and romanticized history of course with the hussar phenomenon in cavalry, and I recall one element which I researched for some time back in the 90s. It had to do with the notching of the blade back near the tip on Austrian cavalry swords. I first saw this in the illustration in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967). There were a number of the line drawings of these swords with this curious notch. Despite efforts with a number of museums noted in his book, there were no viable explanations of this strange but deliberate feature.

Perhaps those of you who have collected and studied these Austrian arms have noticed these, and might have some thoughts?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I very much second Fernando's comment!! Fantastic pieces!

I have not yet found the book I mentioned...it is a paperback.
"Edged Weapons:Sabres of the Hapsburg Monarchy 16th-20thc"
Jan Sach & Petr Moudry
This is primarily an identification handbook, captioned in three languages, but text is limited.

Victrix, excellent and concise insight regarding the 'hussar' development in these regions, which became the standard for European light cavalry.

I think the notion that the hussars evolved in 'Hungary', as mentioned, is very much as described, as the Hapsburg Empire with Hungary as its epicenter, broadly encompassed so many countries in Europe. Hungary became more of a collective term used descriptively by writers in earlier times.

Also, according to Jan Ostrowski, in "Origins of the Polish Sabre" (1979, p.222 ), "....Hungarian blade production, if it existed at all, must have been very limited, for the 17th c. records tell of blade purchase in mass from Styrian and Italian manufacturers and the great majority of surviving Hungarian sabres have Styrian and Genovese blades often marked with crescent moons and inscription Genoa, Fringia and Francia".

It seems that even with the strong favor for 'Hungarian' blades in Arabia presumed them to be from there, and termed them accordingly 'Magyar' ( though in Arabian of course). I have had Bedouin sabres which were clearly marked with the so called 'Transylvanian knot', essentially talismanic or magic oriented devices and wording.

There is a great deal of colorful and romanticized history of course with the hussar phenomenon in cavalry, and I recall one element which I researched for some time back in the 90s. It had to do with the notching of the blade back near the tip on Austrian cavalry swords. I first saw this in the illustration in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967). There were a number of the line drawings of these swords with this curious notch. Despite efforts with a number of museums noted in his book, there were no viable explanations of this strange but deliberate feature.

Perhaps those of you who have collected and studied these Austrian arms have noticed these, and might have some thoughts?


Salaams Jim, Knowing nothing about this field of weapons I can only add a brilliant book source I discovered whilst looking for the references you give above ...thus I draw members attention to the books illustrated at http://swordsdb.com/SwordsDB_Bibliography.php and hope to improve my library on European swords from that collection...at some point.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Victrix]

Yes Jim, I find the Austro-Hungarian Empire quite fascinating in the way it was polyglot with people marrying each other across ethnic groups and speaking many languages with nationalism (as opposed to patriotism) being essentially a 19thC invention.

I did not know that Magyar swords with "Transylvanian knots" were popular in Arabia. Were the blades produced in Styria and N.Italy and then marketed by Hungarians? Would love to learn more about this topic.

The war in Hungary was very cruel (reading a history book on the subject is a hairraising experience!) with weapons developed to match the intensity of conflict. I'm afraid that notch which you mentioned was designed to inflict maximum damage in the opponent when withdrawing the sword from a stab wound. In Wagner's book on p.339 he writes about a heavy Austrian cavalry broad sword: "The tooth, cut into the back edge, helped 'the old heavers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room or time to put much strength into the cut."

Many thanks to Ibrahiim for providing the sword bibliography where I saw the book by Moudry which Jim mentioned earlier. There was another one about German sword manufacturers which should hopefully cover Styria as well.

[Jim McDougall]

Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature.
Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well.

If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885).

Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me :).

It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.

[Victrix]

Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature.
Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well.

If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885).

Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me :).

It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.

Jim, you are right that the notches also appear on Austro-Hungarian sabres illustrated in Wagner's book, but he only comments on its function in relation to the broad sword which is why I mentioned this particular case. This brings us to the less palatable and romantic aspect of history. I understand that curved sabre blades are designed to deepen cuts, especially from horseback against unarmoured opponents on foot. I understand that sabres, although really single edged swords designed for cutting, often have a "false" edge on the top edge to facilitate thrusting (especially upwards). This would enable the user to make another strike against an opponent without having to first raise his blade again (losing precious time) for another cut. After using his sabre on horseback for a cut, the hussar would simply thrust his sabre into (possibly another) opponent by raising it in which case the "false" edge would be useful. The notch on the "false" edge would have a nasty effect as the sabre was being withdrawn. The risk for snagging is probably reduced by a single notch and the absence of a barb. Apologies for being so graphic. Saw-toothed bayonets were sometimes issued to engineer troops as multi function tools, but they were frowned on in WWI where German troops ran the risk of summary execution if captured using one.

[corrado26]

Honestly, I have never seen an Austrian/Hungarian husar sabre with a notch on the false edge of ist blade. But what I have seen and have posted fotos of are pallasches with these notches. I have no exakt idea what These notches have been for but one told me that they ease collecting things that had fallen down from horseback.
corrado26

[Victrix]

Corrado,

Thanks for posting more pictures! The FRINGIA blade is nice. Wagner has a few sabres with notches in his big book. I hope you are right about the purpose for the notch.

Happy Easter to you all.

[Jim McDougall]

Corrado, as noted Wagner (1967) has at least two sabres shown with these notches, as I explained earlier, and which brought even more thought toward why these would worsen thrust wounds, when a sabre from horseback is a slashing and cutting weapon.

As for utilitarian use, it is a tenuously applied suggestion for picking up things of the ground from horseback (note the direction of the 'hook' in the notch on the first photo) and other ideas as holding a pot handle over a campfire etc.

The idea of these notches being damage caused is patently dismissed by the consistant and deliberate placement at same blade location on the numerous examples. Even Burton (1885) noted an instance of a toothed edge which seemed a singular case, "...it is not easy to explain except by individual freak, the meaning of the toothed or broken edge which appears on a dagger of the 14th c.". This is drawn as a deliberately shaped notch at midpoint on the blade, which defies accidental probability......and more so, the reason why it is there.

This conundrum has defied the many authorities, museum officials, collectors and authors I have consulted over the years, so none of these explanations seem to satisfy any purpose or logic in this feature.
I apologize for any derailment in the thread here, but wanted to bring this mysterious feature to the attention of the clearly very well informed participants in this discussion of the weapons in this context.

Thank you guys for the thoughtful entries and great photos! This strange dilemma has plagued me for many years, so I hope you guys don't get the thing too!

[corrado26]

Two years ago a new book by Jiri Protiva was published under the title "Pallasche der Habsburger Monarchie" (Pallashs of the Habsburg Monarchy). The main part of the book is written in Czech language, but at the ende there is a summery in German language and there you can find on page 164 the sentence you see on the foto attached. In Emglish it reads as follows:
Remarkable too is the barbed hook or notch which we can see at some pallashs from this time at their back site. Its meaning is differently explained, often with the intention to hurt the enemy deeper as normally. The most simple explanation however is, that this notche is a hook, used for collecting fallen down objects without leaving the horseback.

I think, these notches have been in use for both possibilities. Very interesting for me would be to find out who made these notches, were they made in the factory or by the user.
corrado26

[corrado26]

A minute ago a friend told me that such notches are not limited to Austrian swords but can be found at Prussian swords too. He had red in a book (he cannot remember the title) that plundering cavalry troops after a battle rode over the "field of honor" and with the notches in the blades of their swords collected cartouche boxes, bread sacks, knapsacks etc. in order to find eatable things or other lute

corrado26

[Victrix]

Corrado,
Many thanks for including Jiri Protiva's book (another one not in my library) in the discussion. Now we have a published argument for the utilitarian purpose for the notch on sword tips from what must be considered an expert in the niche area of Austro-Hungarian pallasches! Clearly the topic deserves an open mind. My critique of this argument is that it's unusual for military to design their main weapons for utilitarian purposes like this unless engineers, etc. The military tends to be strict about troopers altering their weapons for private purposes. It's also not clear why a little notch would make it much easier to pick things from the ground with a sword, unless apples? Couldn't the troops use a wooden stick for the purpose instead? Jim mentioned the risk of the sword snagging. The notch could easily snag in the reins or equipment during a melee and pose risks to the user. Wagner's Cut & Thrust Weapons only shows Austro-Hungarian swords with notches, I could not find any German ones. Separately, I can't find any Swedish swords with notches. Were Swedish cavalry not interested in picking up things from the ground?

Wagner's argument for the notch makes sense from a physical point of view. The critique is that this seems uncharacterically cruel. The supporting argument could be that these notches on swords were perhaps used in South Eastern Europe, where the nature of conflict was more intense and there was less emphasis on chivalry? It would be interesting to find out if some pallasches of a particular model have notches and some don't, which could suggest that some swords might have been adapted to different theatres of war? Most of the swords with notches in Wagner's book are in the Military Museum of Prague, but this might not mean anything as I understand most Austrian heavy cavalry regiments (users of pallasches) were from Bohemia?

Greetings from a snowy Stockholm!

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Corrado for that supportive detail and the title of that reference!
It is most important to have such details as we pursue this unusual topic, which seems to have been largely unnoticed in most works except Wagner's.

As I have mentioned, this seems to have been a 'field application' and certainly nothing either done or permitted in arsenals or officially purposed armourers. It is good to know (and quite frankly not surprising) that the Prussians have instances of this practice as well. In discussions with other authorities I have been told the same of some French swords in these periods.
Again, the Protiva reference seems to carry forth the same suggestions from the Wagner reference, while the other Prussian related note is of the same type circumstantial mention as with the French case I noted.

It is important to note that the larger European armies including France and Prussia adopted what were known as 'grenzer' units which were auxiliary forces for skirmishing and foraging. The Austrians continued these as well although the original 'pandour' units of von Trenck had been disbanded.
The 'grenzer' term meant 'border guard' as these were essentially what the original pandurs had been prior to adaption to military purpose

The idea that these forces were actually intended for foraging suggests some strength in the idea that they would be engaged in collecting such useful items after battle. However why then would 'officers' swords be notched as well? would these 'duties' not be ascribed to regular troopers?
Also, if these notches were so intended, why then are some placed effectively 'backwards' where they could not serve as a 'hook' ?

The next important question for the pallasches would be that a notched blade would not only snag in a thrust, but in many cases, effectively remove the now imbedded weapon from its user and expose him to other combatants unarmed. In a melee, this would mean his end in mere seconds from surrounding enemy.

The idea of the horrifying notion of toothed blades (as Burton addressed and I noted in my earlier post) as deliberately inhumane weapons intended to frighten the enemy is actually more 'lore' than reality. In my personal findings on this I found that the most well known of the 'toothed' bayonets, the Schmitt-Rubin of the 1880s used by German forces in WWI, generated these kinds of stories among the British forces. The British, thinking these were 'designed' for this horrifying purpose, offered no quarter to any soldier found with one of these. For this reason, many of the German forces took to grinding down the back of the blades. I do not recall the source of this data but I think it was the late Roger Evans who told me that.

This same hatred toward lancer troops was well known in the Napoleonic campaigns, as the lance wounds carried all manner of debris and infecting material into the wound which brought an excruciating and often prolonged end to those who survived the initial thrust wound. The idea of 'worsening' a thrust wound physically, at the risk of imbedding the weapon out of service, is of course most unlikely in my opinion.

While the more pragmatic ideas of utility have a degree of plausibility, they seem equally unlikely (there was some levity as I talked with several fencing masters at one academy, and one suggested 'can opener'?...in jest).

While I think even Occam would have thrown up his hands on this one, there HAS to be an explanation to this less than usual, but profoundly notable practice in these times on blades.

[Victrix]

Jim,

This quote might come in handy for future reference regarding the notorious German bayonets: "We overhaul the bayonets...the ones that have a saw on the blunt edge. If the fellows over there catch a man with one of those, he's killed at sight." (Erich Maria Remarque, All Quiet on the Western Front).

There seems to be a parallel discussion about the purpose of notches on knives on the internet. I guess it's highly implausible that the notches on pallasch and sabre blade tips could be intended to catch the opponents' blades and wrest those out of their hands? Apparently there's also something called a "Spanish notch" on Bowie knives which is something else?

I guess the existence of notches on Prussian and French sword blades are only hearsay so far. It would be nice to discover photos of some examples to prove their existence.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Victrix! This is quite a trip down memory lane, and researches from many years back which were fascinating and actually pretty great adventures.
Interesting note on the Remarque novel, of course an all time classic which observed the accounts on those bayonets. I recall one of those being one of my very first weapons I collected as a kid, back in the early 60s. I thought it was pretty scary and my friends thought I was nuts for having such a ghastly thing...no need to mention my parents thoughts!

Thank you for that quote!!! I had never known of that in that book, but of course knew the movie well.

The old blade catcher myth is another well used chestnut, and pretty well dispelled by Egerton Castle, in "Schools and Masters of Fence" (1885) particularly with the toothed 'sword breakers'. These were primarily novelties with the left hand daggers basically out of use by their time according to his findings. It is virtually the same instance with most other 'sword catching' features such as notches, and only quillons and guards served such purposes, then usually nominally.

The 'Spanish notch' is another one which came up in my research years ago (now I really want to find these notes!). It was in an article in a magazine around 1979, and I cannot recall the authors name. No satisfactory conclusion was ever found but it seems these notches on the back of the blade were on 'Meditteranean' knives. These were typically used aboard ships by sailors, who used them of course as weapons in the expected knife fights among themselves. It was from these that the Bowie brothers learned the art of knife fighting, and it is believed that they were ancestors of the fabled 'Bowie' knife.
I was told by a blacksmith working in the James Black smithy in Arkansas, home of the 'Bowie', that Black always 'notched' his blades. These had no purpose but were a vestigial nod to those early knives, mostly Spanish but many French ( prevalent in Louisiana of course).

It is in that rather 'honorific' sense that these were notched that makes me wonder of there is perhaps some such 'gesture' or symbolic notion which might have been behind these mysteriously applied features.

Thank you for sharing in pondering these curious notches, and for your patience as I drag out all these research memories! :)

[Jim McDougall]

For the record, three pages from Wagner (I think there are about 8 examples) and another blade with notches but source unk.

Actually in some notes I found, there is mention of reins being the object of attack where if a riders reins were cut, and control of his horse lost, he was in serious trouble in melee action. There were cases in which this actually prompted reins with guards or chain I believe.
Also, by the same token perhaps these notches could help a rider retrieve his reins if dropped without dismounting?

[corrado26]

Thank you very much - I take this for a very good and plausible thought, really a very good explanation and perhaps the best I have red until today.
corrado26

[fernando]

Let me not be a party pooper, Jim (and corrado) but, wouldn't you find these notches to small to pick and pull up 'thick' reins straps ? :o .

[Jim McDougall]

Let me not be a party pooper, Jim (and corrado) but, wouldn't you find these notches to small to pick and pull up 'thick' reins straps ? :o .


Good question Fernando, and in actuality, most of the suggestions that have been presented by authorities such as Wagner and other museum officials, collectors et al, though desperately trying to find a pragmatic explanation for these notches, have been equally fanciful.

As I have noted, even the character of these notches, let alone size, defies reasonable plausibility in accord with the proposed purposes. In the case of one pandour sabre I handled, the notch was too small for any effective purpose, yet it was faithfully placed in the same blade location.

My only recourse throughout the many years of trying to resolve this unusual feature has been to consider some long forgotten symbolic gesture for it. As I had mentioned, Bowie knives have long received a vestigial notch on the back of the blade in this manner. We may consider the 'choil' on the back of the kukri blade, faithfully placed, but with no explainable purpose.
The notion of notching a blade to serve as a 'blade catcher' is of course pure nonsense as far as I have seen in more years of studying this phenomenon than I can say exactly.

[fernando]

...My only recourse throughout the many years of trying to resolve this unusual feature has been to consider some long forgotten symbolic gesture for it ...
My non-initiated perspective has little weight but, unless some clear (convincing) evidence of a practical purpose of these cuts shows up, i would subscribe your thoughts :o .

[Victrix]

From the discussions above I see no reason to reject the published claims put forward by Messrs Wagner and Protiva regarding the notches on Austrian swords from the beginning of the 18thC, unless evidence materializes to prove them incorrect.

I would be interested to know if all swords of the particular models in Wagner's book Cut and Thrust Weapons had notches, or only some rare examples. Intentionally or not, Wagner's book gives the impression that many Austrian pallasches and sabres from the first half of the 18thC had notches on their blades. Then the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.

[Jim McDougall]

Actually it is interesting to revisit this very old research, and try to find old notes.
I think here it is important to note a caveat to researchers. One thing I think many of us at this for a very long time (usually more years than we care to admit), it is not always the case that because something is written in a book, it is always correct. Most authors note this fact in the introductions, and readily accept that new evidence may render some of their comments and findings to be incorrect.

I have always had the highest respect for those with the courage and tenacity to publish, and have maintained the highest regard for the works of many now venerable authors of key references we all often use and cite as resources. Over the years however, we have often found cases of mistakes and other long held ideas now disproven.
In one case, while researching a topic and checking a reference in an article by a well known author, I asked about a particular observation which I needed to verify to support a theory. Apparently the statement was made by him as an assumption from an unsubstantiated source, which he openly admitted, and for which I admired his honesty. Though discouraged, it reinforced the importance of rechecking and cross checking material and sources.

Now turning to Wagner's reference ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", 1967, p.339) I found the quote in notes (I do not have the book at the moment).....
"...the tooth, cut in the back edge, helped the 'old hewers' to aggravate the wound when thrusting, especially when cutting with the back edge of the broadsword, where there was no room to put much strength into the cut".

This entry seems presumed, the suggestion to the tooth (notch) in aggravating the thrust wound as I have noted seems dangerous in that the blade would become snagged in that wound. However, the note about cutting with the back edge of the blade suggests a back stroke as might be used in the close quarters of melee, which may be what Wagner means by 'no room for strength to the cut'.
This seems to make some degree of sense, as these kinds of wounds, not necessarily debilitating may have been in the sense of the 'stramazone', a slashing across the face to cause distracting bleeding, used in dueling with rapiers.

I found that the references to the 'old hewers; referred to the "War of the Spanish Succession" (1701-14), where the Austrian army still was using many of the older swords from the Thirty Years War as well as forms from continuous war with Turkey. There seem to have a wide scope of forms, but clearly reaching the end of their working lives. These forces in 1701 were indeed led by Eugene of Savoy (d.1736).

In Wagner, there are actually five exemplars illustrated with the notch feature:
Plate 2, p.372, a cavalry broadsword of beginning of 18th c. Prince Eugene inscription.
Plate 3, an Austrian cuirassier broadsword early 18th c.
Plate 7, an Austrian heavy cavalry broadsword in use until c.1740
Plate 35, a Pandour officers sabre c.1747, Hungarian
Plate 39, an Austrian hussar sergeants sabre 1768

All of these are notched at back of blade near tip.

I recall having thought at one time that these notched had to do with the notorious Pandour units, however it seems only that one officers sabre had the notch. There are no other examples throughout the book which have any such notch, only these Austrian examples, which seem anomalies.

I have never (since research began c. 1994) found sound reference to other notched blades other than unsubstantiated comments from other collectors and dealers who had seen them on French examples in cases. I have seen a British sabre of c.1780 with this exact notch but have not the details to support . It would seem the other instances mentioned regarding the Prussian cases are similarly surmised.

In original research in the 90s, I wanted to confirm that the examples in Wagner actually had the notch and this was not artists license, so I contacted the museums he cited for the originals. While they sent me photos of the original swords, when asked, the officials typically claimed they 'had no idea what the notches were for'. This seemed surprising as these were primarily Czech museums, where Wagner had been a curator.

[corrado26]

These notches are at no way limited to Austian swords. There are Prussian cuirassier swords M 1732 with such a notch as well as Saxon cavalry swords M 1764. The foto shows the the tip of the Prussian sword.
corrado26

[Victrix]

These notches are at no way limited to Austian swords. There are Prussian cuirassier swords M 1732 with such a notch as well as Saxon cavalry swords M 1764. The foto shows the the tip of the Prussian sword.
corrado26

Many thanks for posting this picture Corrado26! Any chance of seeing the whole sword including the tip?

[Jim McDougall]

I hope the detail from Wagner might respond to your earlier question Victrix.
I agree, it would be great to see the photo of the sword with the tip.
That was why I wrote the those museums and got photos of the swords emphasizing the notched tip.

The British sword I mentioned has only in the description that the tip was notched, and apparently deliberately, not from damage. However this reference was in my notes and the source not cited (I cant believe I did that!) so useless for supportive evidence. I just know I saw it, and the sword was entirely out of East European context c. 1780.

There must be some account or reference in the military history corpus of these Austrian and Prussian cavalry in which this curious anomaly is noted. Occasionally such dimension and detail is noted in mention of the troopers field notching their blades perhaps.

[Victrix]

Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.

[corrado26]

Many thanks for posting this picture Corrado26! Any chance of seeing the whole sword including the tip?


I'll try to get such fotos -be patient please
corrado26

[Jim McDougall]

Yes, thank you very much Jim for raising the issue of notches on blades to my attention. If I come across information regarding this I will share it with you. We might not necessarily be able to solve the conundrum, but at least we'll be able to view the evidence and draw our own conclusions.


We have come a long way here Victrix! (remember this one has been 'on my books' for over 20 years! but honestly I have not lost sleep over it):)
Even if we do not solve this, it is good to have the data at hand compiled for review, and we can at least find reasonable plausibility for the matter.
I very much appreciate discussing this with you and Corrado!
Lets stay at it !

[Victrix]

Found Anton Dolleczek's book Monographie der k.u.k. österr.-ung. blanken und Handfeuer-Waffen (1970) today by chance and looked at the swords from early 18thC. None of them have notches. Maybe these notches were not as common as Wagner's book seems to suggest (unintentionally), and added as a feature by some individual troopers at the time?

[Jim McDougall]

Great find!!! This is an extremely hard to find reference (at least it was), but I have seen these plates before. Indeed this is a typology of these arms, but the notches not shown. Remember that it is my impression these were a field addition, not a regulation feature.
The examples depicted in Wagner were certainly anomalies, remember only five of all shown have these, and these were all weapons which had been in service collected in the museums noted. I thought perhaps these might have been artistic license, so I wrote to the museums cited by Wagner as I mentioned earlier. In each case, photographs of the actual weapons depicted in the drawings indeed had the notch! However, none of the officials had given this any notice, and had no idea what these were for.

Nice job in finding this reference!!! I always wanted one of those Austrian disc hilt M1769 since working on a history of the British M1796.

[corrado26]

Here come two fotos of a Prussian husar sabre with a very faint notch at the back of its blade - maybe it is nothing else than a light damage....
corrado26

[corrado26]

Here are the fotos of a Prussian dragoon sword 1732 with a notch at the tip of its blade. Remarkable is the Prussian eagle mark on the blade what proofss that this blade is no Austrian lute but made and accepted in Prussia.
corrado26

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully done Corrado!!! You have done exactly what I was trying to do with letters to East European museums back in 1996, but the results then were pretty dismal. ....here you have shown that the Prussians indeed DID apply the notch.
Those double notches are like others seen, and are definitely NOT damage, they are deliberately placed.
Thank you so much!!!

[Victrix]

Here are the fotos of a Prussian dragoon sword 1732 with a notch at the tip of its blade. Remarkable is the Prussian eagle mark on the blade what proofss that this blade is no Austrian lute but made and accepted in Prussia.
corrado26

Yes well done Corrado26, you have just proved that the notches on blades are not limited to Austro-Hungarian swords but was a practice elsewhere too. Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Now we can quote you on that. Interestingly, the notched blade practice seems to have occurred mostly at the beginning of the 18thC.

[Victrix]

Great find!!! This is an extremely hard to find reference (at least it was), but I have seen these plates before. Indeed this is a typology of these arms, but the notches not shown. Remember that it is my impression these were a field addition, not a regulation feature.
The examples depicted in Wagner were certainly anomalies, remember only five of all shown have these, and these were all weapons which had been in service collected in the museums noted. I thought perhaps these might have been artistic license, so I wrote to the museums cited by Wagner as I mentioned earlier. In each case, photographs of the actual weapons depicted in the drawings indeed had the notch! However, none of the officials had given this any notice, and had no idea what these were for.

Nice job in finding this reference!!! I always wanted one of those Austrian disc hilt M1769 since working on a history of the British M1796.

Yes Jim, Dolleczek's book in German was mostly text with some plates with illustrations at the back (also including Austro-Hungarian firearms and equipment). I'm surprised that there is not more literature dedicated to Austro-Hungarian sabres pre-1815, as these are very interesting and varied swords in themselves. I have struggled to find a copy of Hussar Weapons of the 15-17thC (2010) by Tibor S Kovacs which I understand is no longer available even in Budapest. The Austrian M1769 sabre is nice, but I personally wouldn't mind having an Austrian panzerstecher in my collection.

[fernando]

Hi guys,
Was it already mentioned here that this kind of blade notch also appears in French swords, as in a Hussard model 1756 (per Jean Bink), for one... and also in a 1796 British Cavalry sword (per Jeff Demetrick) ... and in a Hussard P1808 (as in Wilkinson - Latham) as well ?.
Looks like this was an 'international' fashion, with ones copying others, regardless of the sword style, whether with one or two notches, with no precise dimensions, surely an intervention of individual iniative. Would it be hard to admit that, as most (all?) current sword enthusiasts keep wondering what these notches were for, also some period owners had these cuts done without knowing their purpose, other than one showing the tough owner's look fashion ... like in other cases that history tells us, you know, notches in revolvers butts ... and not only ?


.

[Victrix]

Hi guys,
Was it already mentioned here that this kind of blade notch also appears in French swords, as in a Hussard model 1756 (per Jean Bink), for one... and also in a 1796 British Cavalry sword (per Jeff Demetrick) ... and in a Hussard P1808 (as in Wilkinson - Latham) as well ?.
Looks like this was an 'international' fashion, with ones copying others, regardless of the sword style, whether with one or two notches, with no precise dimensions, surely an intervention of individual iniative. Would it be hard to admit that, as most (all?) current sword enthusiasts keep wondering what these notches were for, also some period owners had these cuts done without knowing their purpose, other than one showing the tough owner's look fashion ... like in other cases that history tells us, you know, notches in revolvers butts ... and not only ?

Thank you, Fernando. That seems to expand the time period for these sword notches to include all of the 18thC! I saw some hunting knives with notches used for gutting game. I hope the troopers didn't use the notches on their blades to gut their opponents! It appears unlikely, as the grip would have been different and I can only see those notches on modern hunting knives...
:eek:
But perhaps you are right in that it could have been some kind of show of bravado.

[Victrix]

Yes Jim, Dolleczek's book in German was mostly text with some plates with illustrations at the back (also including Austro-Hungarian firearms and equipment). I'm surprised that there is not more literature dedicated to Austro-Hungarian sabres pre-1815, as these are very interesting and varied swords in themselves. I have struggled to find a copy of Hussar Weapons of the 15-17thC (2010) by Tibor S Kovacs which I understand is no longer available even in Budapest. The Austrian M1769 sabre is nice, but I personally wouldn't mind having an Austrian panzerstecher in my collection.

Austrian M1769 sword, and not sabre, I mean obviously!

[JT88]

Hey guys, sorry to resurrect a long-dead thread, but I have recently acquired a Hungarian "Madonna saber" which from what I can find was made somewhere between 1760-1811. It is a beautiful example as pictured.

There is scarce information on these swords. There are a few similarities as mention above in Wagner which I identified on page 407. I also own "Ungarischer Sabel und Husaren-Pallasch" which solidifies it as a Hungarian saber. Goes on to say that these were almost all foreign-made, mine being a Pottenstein example. I wanted to know what other resources are available for further research on these swords and specifically on Pottenstein as a maker. I've not been able to find anything on Pottenstein specifically and very limited information on Madonna sabers as a whole.

The sword handles beautifully, far more impressive in construction than my 1796. Le Marchant obviously derived his sabers from these.

Its stats are as follows:
Sword in scabbard weight: 3 lb 10.5 oz/1660g
Sword weight: 1 lb 12 oz/ 794g
37 3/4'" long
33" blade
8" POB from the hilt

I only own a 1796LC officers which is obviously a well-constructed light blade, but it seems to be somewhere between that sword and my 1811 Blucher which is a beast.

Thanks for the look!

[Victrix]

This is Pottenstein in lower Austria. See: https://www.biographien.ac.at/oebl/oebl_S/Steiner_Melchior_1762_1837.xml

[JT88]

This is Pottenstein in lower Austria. See: https://www.biographien.ac.at/oebl/oebl_S/Steiner_Melchior_1762_1837.xml

This Pottenstein manufacturer is regarding 19th century, this blade style was only in production until 1811 with many of the others much earlier.

[Jim McDougall]

I am curious about the reference to Wagner.
My copy "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (Prague, 1967) shows virtually this exact saber among Austrian swords as Hungarian mid 18th c. and with Pottenstein as place of manufacture.
Here I would note that Pottenstein seems to be a judicial district, and electoral region in Bavaria. It is often confusing as swords often, if not typically have the arms of Hungary, but clearly this was Austro-Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire.
While it seems possible there were blade makers at Pottenstein, it seems more likely this was where the saber was 'outfitted'.

It is interesting that this example is silver metal, the book example is brass.

The use of the Madonna falls into place with many of the religious and neo-classic themes popular in Hungary and East European regions.
What is most curious in the Madonna depiction is that the figure is standing on the face of the 'man in the moon' which is a common depiction in the cosmology of many European blades. The image of this moon also shows the line along the back of the head which represents a rostrum, as depicted in the moons used in Spain for espaderos del rey.

In references on Hungarian arms I have read it is noted that there was a predeliction for symbolic representation on arms in this period. In Poland there was a use of representations of important rulers, and those particular swords were termed in accord with the figure on the blade. For example 'zygmuntowka' (King Sigismund); 'batorowka' (King Stephen Bathory).

[JT88]

There is scarce information on Pottenstein, I notice a wide difference in the signatures I've found. It does seem to be a district in Austria that exported a variety of swords to Vienna.

I can post the single page of information from the book I posted, it is not all that different than what is in Wagner.

[Victrix]

In the 18thC Austria manufactured sword blades mainly in Pottenstein and Weiz. Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765. He successfully competed with foreign imports on price and quality. On his death in 1786, his nephew Melchior Ritter von Steiner took over the arms factory which did well and became the market leader in Austria. The factory was converted into a metal and machinery goods manufacturer in 1828.

I read somewhere that gild/brass decorations on uniforms and arms in Austria-Hungary was reserved for the Crown. Silver plated hussar sabres were used by private palace and castle guards (including ceremonial duties). The Austro-Hungarian empire contained some large estates.

Below text is from Das industrielle Erbe Niederösterreichs: Geschichte, Technik, Architektur (2006) by Gerhard A Stadler.

[JT88]

Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page.

Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty?

Cheers

[Victrix]

Great info Victrix! Clearly have done your research since your first post. My only question would be the Pottenstein blades marked prior to 1760, such as the one on the first page.

Do you know where you read about the reservation of the gilding for palace guard/royalty?

Cheers

There would be no Pottenstein blades marked as such prior to 1765 as the previous factory was based in Sollenau (see text).

The gilding would be reserved for Army officers, not private estate guards. Not sure where I got that from, so unconfirmed. Hussar regiments were recognized from uniform colours and it’s possible some used gilding and others used silver (so also unconfirmed).

[JT88]

Check the first page there’s one pictured there marked 1749.

Have you seen any other with silver hardware? It’s not plated, my guess from its polishing characteristics is that it is low grade silver. I haven’t been able to find another example that is not brass.

[corrado26]

Melchior Steiner started production of sword blades in Pottenstein (lower Austria) in 1765.

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

[Victrix]

Maybe it’s the Bavarian Pottenstein :D

Note that there is a senior and a junior Melchior Steiner (see the text). The factory was started by the uncle and continued with the nephew (knighted) according to the sources. It’s possible that there was some blade production in Pottenstein at a smaller level before the factory, but I’m not aware of this. The location seems to have been very good. It’s rare to find dated blades so it might be an artesenal example. Also not sure how exact the dating is as it was a long time ago now.

[JT88]

A production start at Pottenstein in 1765 is IMHO impossible because Melchior Steiner was baptised not before novembre 21. 1762. But as there are sabres with the Pottenstein signature of the year 1749, the information given with 1765 must be wrong.

Possible as his source says that it began with his uncle or father. What’s the earliest sample anyone has seen of a Pottenstein blade?

Are you able to tell me any more about my sample? Or where you’ve found information? The two books I listed are the only I’ve found thus far.

The Pottenstein blades seem far rarer than either the Fringian or Solingen examples. Treasures

[Jim McDougall]

This is outstanding information Victrix! and thank you for sharing the reference data. I had found that Pottenstein was mostly an administrative term for the town and castle which was in Bavaria, or an electorate (the geo political complexity of these areas and in the Holy Roman Empire is maddening!)
Regardless, it does make sense that there was some sort of arsenal and manufacturing activity there.
I believe it was not until 1811 that the region fell into Bavarian designation.

It is interesting that these Austrian swords typically had Hungarian arms on the blades, presumably because of the suzerainty of the Holy Roman rule (Austro-Hungary).

In studying the swords of these regions, it is often noted in references on Polish swords and East European, as per Ostrowski (1979) that Hungary, if there was any blade production at all, was minimal, and records there show orders for blades from Styria and Italy mostly.

In Wagner, (p.350) the detail on a saber listed as that of a Pandour officer , by swordsmith Mairschoffer I , Passau, anno 1747.
The illustration shows the blade as 'Hungarian' and having a 'notch' near the point.
The illustration here from Konipsky & Moudry (1991) is the same.

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Is such 'symbolic' notching feasible? With the Landsknechts, I had read (passim) that they wore clothing that was deliberately torn and tattered to represent 'battled' garments of their predecessors in combat. Notches were placed in firearms as a kind of tally at times (though no evidence supports western gunfighters doing this in reality) .


I did find evidence of a few cases of this 'notching' with French hussars of the period through contacts in France, but this information does not have confirmation.

[Jim McDougall]

Here come two fotos of a Prussian husar sabre with a very faint notch at the back of its blade - maybe it is nothing else than a light damage....
corrado26

When I first noticed the 'notches' in the drawings of Austrian swords in the Wagner book, I thought at first the same thing, must be damage.
But then as I looked at the other drawings (about 6 if I recall), they all had the same notch....then in reading the text, I found that Wagner had surmised these 'notches' were for aggravating wounds.

I checked the references for the source weapons Wagner had used, and wrote to the museums noted to acquire actual photos of the subject weapons.
In each case, the photos revealed that the notches were indeed there.

In the case you have posted here, the blade has TWO very shallow notches. These clearly would serve no utility purpose, and why two?
It can be seen they are deliberately placed.

[Interested Party]

My example of this type saber has the Hungarian arms but is not marked as to maker, and does have the same notch.
I personally do not think these notches have a utilitarian purpose, but perhaps something more symbolic. In the time researching these notches, there have been no satisfactory explanations to this curious feature on many Austrian swords.

Wagner states it was to worsen wounds, however, despite sounding viable, the truth of the matter is from what I found, this may cause the weapon to become lodged, thus disarming the user. Also, how would this apply to such a notch on the blade back of a saber? a cutting weapon.

Maybe the notch was a perceived advantage when used in a falso dritto or a montante sotto mano? The second cut if would tend to gut or emasculate an unarmored opponent. At the top of the stroke it could get to the face and eyes of an overextended opponent. With shorter blades it has been taught when the edge is just above eye level and move your blade down your opponent again. I don't know if these sabers have that kind of agility. The notches on cane cutters were used to bring an object to you. Either way it would appear to me to have created a natural place for the point to snap.

[Jim McDougall]

JT88,
In your original post you noted LeMarchant and his creation of the British light cavalry saber in 1796. Indeed he did model his proposals for the first 'regulation' cavalry swords in 1796, both for light and heavy cavalry.

The famed 'disc hilt' sword for heavy cavalry was designed nearly exactly from the M1769 Austrian pallasche, and the light cavalry sabers were primarily after Austrian examples as well. Le Marchant had been posted with Austrian cavalry in Flanders and had very much admired their dexterity and effect with their swords.
His keen awareness of the needs for more efficient and standardized swords for the cavalry are well described in his biography "Scientific Soldier" by Thoumaine.

John Morgan wrote brilliant articles on these in "Classic Arms and Militaria" about 20 years ago, and I recall corresponding with him as at that time I was researching both British disc hilts as well as these notched blades.

I recall that then, I had hoped that material on LeMarchant would bring out perhaps some comments or observations on these notched blades. However, even reaching one of his descendants in England brought no notice of this curious feature.

[Jim McDougall]

Maybe the notch was a perceived advantage when used in a falso dritto or a montante sotto mano? The second cut if would tend to gut or emasculate an unarmored opponent. At the top of the stroke it could get to the face and eyes of an overextended opponent. With shorter blades it has been taught when the edge is just above eye level and move your blade down your opponent again. I don't know if these sabers have that kind of agility. The notches on cane cutters were used to bring an object to you. Either way it would appear to me to have created a natural place for the point to snap.


Very well placed notes, and actually I did contact several 'Masters of Arms' to ask for their opinions on this 'notching'. They honestly had no idea what useful purpose these would serve (I think I still have the letters but its been nearly 20 years).
The note on the potential for weakening the point seems reasonable as well.
This would be the case regardless of what the intended use was.
The idea of holding a cooking pot over a fire seems unlikely as well, as the blade could be damaged by the heat as previously noted.

[JT88]

JT88,
In your original post you noted LeMarchant and his creation of the British light cavalry saber in 1796. Indeed he did model his proposals for the first 'regulation' cavalry swords in 1796, both for light and heavy cavalry.

The famed 'disc hilt' sword for heavy cavalry was designed nearly exactly from the M1769 Austrian pallasche, and the light cavalry sabers were primarily after Austrian examples as well. Le Marchant had been posted with Austrian cavalry in Flanders and had very much admired their dexterity and effect with their swords.
.

I'm aware of LeMarchant's background and his Austrian inspiration for the 1796's working with various British smiths.

I'm trying to find more information on Pottenstein, the resources are nil. The 1765 production start date doesn't make sense with the 1749 blade posted on the first page.

I have a feeling Steiner's uncle Melchior began sword production prior to the listed 1780 date, he was born in 1730 and was "a respected merchant and industrialist." That timeline would jive with 1749 marked Pottenstein blade.

As for the trim of silver vs brass uniforms, I can find nothing that distinguishes this sword as it seems uniquely silver vice the usual brass. Hopefully corrado knows more.

[Victrix]

Hi Jim, Thank you so much for posting photos of your interesting pandour sword! In fact itÂ’s the first time I see what it really looks like, as I had only seen WagnerÂ’s drawing of it before. ItÂ’s a very interesting sword for what was an interesting corps to say the least. ItÂ’s amazing that it also has the curious notch. I noticed that your blade appears to have a second fuller near the back towards the tip, which is also unusual.

The Habsburg empire was a ”Hausmacht” or a dynastic power consisting of a number of separate countries united by their common crowned head which was the Kaiser: By the Grace of God Emperor of Austria, King of Hungary and Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria and Illyria; King of Jerusalem, etc. So the Kaiser was Emperor of Austria as well as king of all these other lands in a personal capacity. When he was removed from the throne after WWI (he never formally abdicated) the empire naturally disintegrated. There was an institution which was the Imperial and Royal Army (kaiserlich und königlich) which operated in the whole empire, and then there were national armies like the Royal Hungarian Home Guard (Honved) which existed in parallel. Famous corps like the hussars and pandours originated from the Hungarian lands (pre WWI borders) where they resisted Ottoman expansion into Europe. So they often used local Hungarian insignia rather than the Imperial Austro (-Hungarian) ones on their uniforms, arms, flags etc. The imperial army probably looked down at them as not much better than brigands, but they impressed the rest of Europe when Austria used them in the 30 year war and onwards. The Holy Roman Empire was just a loose confederation of many German states, of which Austria was one.

Hungary was almost annihilated in the Ottoman wars and much of its territory devastated and occupied. So itÂ’s not strange that there wasnÂ’t much manufacturing going on in those war torn lands. I have read that there was some production of blades in what is now Slovakia (part of Hungary pre-WWI) which has mountains and iron ore. But as you mention, much was imported.

In terms of the notch on the blade I wouldnÂ’t be surprised if its function was indeed what Wagner stated. The war against the Ottomans was desperate and quite cruel. Many of the soldiers stationed along the frontline in what was termed the Military Frontier were either defending their homes and families there, or were displaced refugees from lands already occupied by the Ottomans. So weapons were often designed to inflict as much physical harm as possible which is reflected in their dimensions and designs. There may have been certain bravado involved as well of course. As an example I would mention CorradoÂ’s Pottenstein sabre which I noticed has an extremely wide blade (almost exaggerated) which I know was popular amongst the Slavic troops in the Military Frontier (located in pre-WWI borders Hungary) and probably local Hungarian troops as well. It positively looks like a meat cleaver! With regards to Austro-Hungarian silver sabres they do appear from time to time in auctions and seem to have had some sort of ceremonial function as they are obviously decorated at an expense greater than what was normal.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Victrix!!!
As I noted, the profound complexity of all these principalities, duchies, etc. is so hard to grasp, at least for me. You have done a great job of condensing some of it for my limited comprehension!!

As you note, these irregular troops, known loosely as 'Pandurs' were known and feared for their ruthless character and indeed atrocities. Von Trenck himself was known for this type of reputation and much if not most of his life he was in trouble, even condemned to death for what amounts to war crimes etc.
He in fact was imprisoned and his units disbanded. He died in prison in 1749, and his mummified remains are in the Capuchin monastery in Brno.

Part of the intended demeanor of these forces was a fearsome 'oriental' look, scalp locks, drooping mustaches like mongols, cossacks etc. and exotic clothing along with fearsome looking weapons.
Many of these swords had dramatically profiled blades, large, dramatic curves, etc.

I still think that the notch was for perhaps that type of implication, to instill fear in accord with thier brutal reputation. In actual practicality, the notch would have been a hindrance. In most writing I have read on the serrated edges on blades, it is noted that this is the case.
The dreaded sawtooth bayonets of WWI for example:
Allied troops thought these were to worsen wounds, and were horrified at the thought of this.......any soldier found with one of this was dispatched on sight.

Psychological effect in warfare is key, and this kind of lore travels fast.
Imagine the tales of these wild forces, who deliberately 'hooked' their blades to eviscerate their victims.

It seems to fall neatly in place with the dreaded 'image' of the terrifying Pandurs. That reputation prevailed..........and into the next century, blades were adorned in hubris with the image of the Pandur. Sort of like exaggerated Bowie knives with 'Remember the Alamo'.

[Victrix]

Jim, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the Pandours and the curious notch on the sword. Franziskus Freiherr von der Trenck must have been a remarkable man. I read what purports to be his auto-biography (some argue it’s a forgery) which is a highly entertaining and in some parts little sad story: Memoirs of the Life of the illustrious Francis Baron Trenck, Sometime Lord of the lBed- Chamber to her Majesty the Queen of Hungary and Bohemia. And Colonel of a Body of Pandours, and Sclavonian Hussars. Containing A compleat Account of his several Campaigns in Muscovy, Silesia, Austria, Bavaria and other Parts of the Empire, Together with Divers entertaining Anecdotes relating to his secret History. Written by himself, and done from the original German into English. London: printed for W. Owen, 1747. There are persistent rumours he had an affair with the Austrian empress which may at some time have turned sour and allowed his enemies to conspire to have him imprisoned. In addition, this report may also be of some interest: http://www.etd.ceu.edu/2015/balic_juraj.pdf.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Victrix!
I just ordered a biography of von Trenck, and curious to see what it entails. This guy sounds quite self promoting and clearly was pretty ruthless, he was pretty much always in trouble but his 'bravery' led to his favor with superior officers.

Regarding the swords, that illustration you posted reflects the 'clipped point' which came into use in it seems a bit less dramatic profile on German swords of 18th c. I often wondered if these were artistic license in many of the period illustrations, but in "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerrhard Seifert (1962) in panels of blade types shows this exact tip as a 'PANDOUR POINT'.
Here we see the association which reflects the 'fearsome' demeanor of the Pandour weapons, which clearly were intended to present psychological threat to people they came in contact with.

This type effect was of course used by pirates in their maritime versions of these depredations, as well as Cossacks, Vikings, Mongols and other groups to present fearsome appearance before even any action.

There is a possibility he was imprisoned as a result of numbers of things, and may have used the 'laison' reason in a sense of hubris. It seems he was imprisoned numbers of times for his rather sociopathic behavior, so the true reason may be in accord with that issue.

[ausjulius]

from my understanding these notches or "claws" are indeed primarilily intended to assist in collecting items from the ground, cloaks, coats, banners.. haversacks ect..

and then seocndary by some that it will produce a worse wound or a greater chance of a deep wound by an accidential swipe with the back of the blade. (for example you thrust overhand but miss and the person passes to the back of your sword sliding against the back edge and spine. some of these weapons have little back edge and would cause little or no harm..

and thirdly to make a bigger wound when withdrawn in a thrust.. (some notched swords look to be styles that can hardly thrust and some notches are not very sharp at all)

i think they serve all three functions and in soem cases one or two of the three.

but i suspect picking items from the ground is the main function,

these also i imagine were ground off swords by armourers and so we see it less often.

pickign items up with you sword is not an unushal activity and you can see footage fo cossacks doing it too.. a lil rough seciton would make it much easier.. poeple could and maybe did carry a stick or a hook as well but.... your a skilled horseman.. dashing and brave not a guy with a stick with a hook in it rummaging for loot...

the mongols, kalmyks ect had hooks and spikes on their spears for this function, as well as pulling tents down and dehorsing poeple for capture..
id imsgine thier loot sacks were filled with shiny things and gooddies with these hooks, id much rather a hook on a spear. but if you have a sword a nice little gooddie hook would be handy,


i think the hooks at the back of the blade as a weapon seems misguided, almost like a meme.. one person said its good so all did it. which is pretty common in military realms.
as remember there is much better things for this.. the yelman on the original mongol and turkic swords is exactly that, a broad blade to alow a deep destructive wound on the thrust an advantagis unintentional cut with the back of the blade in an overhand thrust, later it becomes decorative in more curved blades.
one would have been wiser to order a blade like that. but as they were limited to these issued blades with blades that didnt have these properties they modified them with barbs to cause some harm, if you were stuck with it it would indeed make a bit of tearing on the way out.

as to the blade catching, its not likely.. it will just pull free as if nothing happened. the notches are small and would just tear the target, would woundnt notice any difference.

[Jim McDougall]

Ausjulius, you have put some deep thought into this and I appreciate your perspectives. However, I began studying this curious phenomenon back in the 90s, and reached the museums holding the swords Wagner (1967) depicted in his drawings. I wanted to confirm that these notches did exist in the actual sword blades, which they did.

In my communications with all of the officials contacted, none had any adequate idea on the notches, in fact seemed surprised there was any attention to the feature in the first place.
The only responses did somewhat echo Wagner's surmising these were to worsen wounds etc.

In various conversations with masters of arms in various regions, none of course had any thoughts on the case which was outside the bounds of regular fencing.

The only cases I found, as I have mentioned in my previous posts, these ONLY occurred on numerous example of Austrian swords, and this was by no means a usual or common practice of notching. The only exception I found was the suggestion of a couple of French hussar sabers having this. It should be noted that French hussars often closely followed Hungarian/Austrian in the 18th c.

So if these notches were such a prescribed practice for utility, worsening wounds or such pragmatic purposes.......why not on ANY other swords of ANY other countries?

Hooks, barbs etc. may be common on axes, polearms but NOT the kind of thing you would see on a standard combat side arm like a sword.

The notches are too shallow to effectively hold things picked up from the ground, unless perhaps to snag an item of clothing or material.
Why would a horseman compromise his blade for such nonsense?

The 'yelman' was NEVER intended for thrusting or any such purpose with the blade. The Poles called this feature colloquially 'the feather' , and its purpose was to add weight and momentum to the slashing cut. This has been made clear to me by sources who were Polish military history authorities, and the same purpose seems logically applied to other blades with this feature.

Sword 'catching' features are typically presumed as pragmatic explanation as in actual combat, such a 'catch' would seem almost surprising and coincidental.

In the thrust, which in combat was nearly always fatal, why would a wound need to be worsened, and with the potential of the blade becoming lodged in the victim?

These are just the views I have come up with in the years I've studied this, but I really appreciate input and exchange of ideas. Typically interest in this has been nominal at best, so thank you.

[JT88]

Found some information on Pottenstein for y'all!

Source: https://www.blankwaffenforum.de/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=4120

"Pottenstein in the Triestingtal in Lower Austria

so a Pottensteiner blade , originated around / or. before 1780 Empress MT in

particularwanted topromote Austria as a closer location through its own production facilities for weapons (blanks and firearms) and supported corresponding initiatives. This resulted in several companies, of which Pottenstein was one of them. The saber blade factory in Pottenstein an der Triesting offered when it was relocatedfrom Sollenau in 1764/65 (founded there by Adam von Metzberg in 1754 ) under its new owner


Melchior Steiner from the new location ideal conditions:
relatively convenient proximity to Vienna , the flowing water of the Triesting, which does not freeze in winter and plenty of wood available for production.
In 1766 28 workers were already employed in the Pottensteiner saber blade factory , the annual production amounted to 12,000 blades ( also for pallasche and hussar sabers) , which became known far beyond the Austrian hereditary lands under the term "Pottensteiner" --- and probably still are . 1769
The company expanded and not far from the old factory was given another property assigned by the Merkenstein rulers , where an even newer blade factory was built. In 1786 Steiner's nephew, Melchior Ritter von Steiner, took over the business. In 1800 there were about 50 workers , only then did the slow decline come : in
1811 (great inflationary period in Austria, Napoleon) only 7 workers left , in 1814 (Napoleonic period) almost shutdown.
After Melchior von Steiner's death in 1837 , the plant was finally liquidated in 1841and converted into a cotton mill.
I ask for your support in resolving my questions about the saber - thank you!"

[awdaniec666]

In case you wonder how these gentleman looked like

[kronckew]

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:


...

The 'Spanish notch' is another one which came up in my research years ago (now I really want to find these notes!). It was in an article in a magazine around 1979, and I cannot recall the authors name. No satisfactory conclusion was ever found but it seems these notches on the back of the blade were on 'Meditteranean' knives. These were typically used aboard ships by sailors, who used them of course as weapons in the expected knife fights among themselves. It was from these that the Bowie brothers learned the art of knife fighting, and it is believed that they were ancestors of the fabled 'Bowie' knife.
I was told by a blacksmith working in the James Black smithy in Arkansas, home of the 'Bowie', that Black always 'notched' his blades. These had no purpose but were a vestigial nod to those early knives, mostly Spanish but many French ( prevalent in Louisiana of course).
...



Some Bowie knives had a notch on the bottom of the blade near the hilt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilt) known as a "Spanish Notch". The Spanish Notch is often cited as a mechanism for catching an opponent's blade; however, some Bowie researchers hold that the Spanish Notch is ill-suited to this function and frequently fails to achieve the desired results. These researchers, instead, hold that the Spanish Notch has the much more mundane function as a tool for stripping sinew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinew) and repairing rope (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope) and nets, as a guide to assist in sharpening the blade (assuring that the sharpening process starts at a specific point and not further up the edge), or as a point to relieve stress on the blade during use.



A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...


My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

[Interested Party]

Since there was no illustration of the Spanish Notch:

A picture is worth a ....aw, you know...

My 'Fowler' Bowie with the 'Spanish' notch:
I suspect it is just a traditional decorative feature, much like the cho or kaudi on a khukuri, which also has a 'nobody really knows why' reputation. I have other bowies with various 'spanish notches'. I'll add a thought that they were the starting point for sharpening. Which looks like the reason for the very plain notch on my smaller "gambler's" bowie at the bottom.

Interesting. I had always believed a Spanish notch was an indention in a self-guard to help prevent the hand from slipping forward onto a blade. To me the second illustration shows a choil used to prevent the thick and hard to sharpen portion of a blade at the end of the ricasso (which this blade lacks).
I personally have always found the choil more of a nuisance than a help especially if the distal end of the notch doesn't slope towards the point. That said I have been told that large choils are used with big knives to allow fingering the blade to help with delicate tasks. I have heard, and maybe read it on this site as well, that specially shaped choils on some knife patterns help with tasks that are regionally common. I always wondered if the cho didn't start that way, or maybe it is just a linga.

The first example seems to somewhere between all three a notch, a choil, and decoration. I am sorry not to have my own illustrations. I delayed this post almost a week and realized I would never publish it if I waited on pictures any longer.

[cel7]

Interesting discussion about the hook. I myself have a Dutch cavalry officers saber model 1813. This one also has this strange hook (see pictures).
A few years ago there was a large auction of 556 Dutch trooper swords and sabers from the Rijksmuseum depot. This included one curious saber with two semicircular recesses on the tip. Years ago, this collection of sabers from the museum's depot was extensively researched and described by the Dutch researcher G Hof. I have attached his report on this strange saber. Since most of you can't read Dutch, I'll summarize it briefly:
He describes the blade and scabbard of a light cavalry saber No.1. Now you should know that the Netherlands bought a batch of m1796 pattern sabers in England. They arrived in Holland at the end of 1813. Deviating is that a British pattern 1821 light cavalry hilt is mounted on this specific example. According to him, this is not surprising because the Netherlands has conducted tests with, among other things, this type of saber. Unfortunately, Mr. Hof can also find no explanation for the strange recess.
Because Mr. Hof does not rule out the possibility that it may be a test saber, the semicircular recesses could also have been made for testing in my opinion.

[cel7]

Does anyone have any idea what purpose these semicircular cutouts would have served?

[corrado26]

the question is whether it's significant that these notches occur on blades which were used by Austrian cavalry during the time of Prince Eugene of Savoy, or whether this is a mere coincidence. Finally I would be interested to see photos of Prussian, French, or other swords with similar notches on their blades to prove that the practice was not limited to Austria.


Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710 with a blade with two notches

[Jim McDougall]

Udo, thank you so much for this! I cannot believe I missed these other most valuable entries bv Victrix and Cel7 et al.....and Wayne, well noted on the Spanish notch.....another anomaly of this genre.

I think the mention of the 'swiping back cut' is a most viable suggestion. In some sword fighting the Italians used a diversionary slashing cut termed 'stramazone', which usually was on the forehead. This resulted of course in bleeding into the eyes and rendering the opponent notably distracted, unable to defend properly.
This seems more viable for such a feature than for dramatic wounding, which would be redundant in a thrust.

The notions of these relatively shallow and small notches for picking up items off the ground or for catching reins seem a bit tenuous and unlikely.

Thanks to JT88 for the Pottenstein detail!

Really sorry guys, not sure what happened, I cant even blame the UFO's :)

[Victrix]

I have some pics of this sabre in an uncleaned state which I thought I’d share with you. I know some of you have reservations about cleaning antique items and that they should show patina to prove their age. In this case I decided to clean the item to restore its former dignity and show its real beauty. The brass also showed green oxidation which caused me concern about possible future damage. The brass mouth of the scabbard is loose so I show you what this looks like (anatomy).

[awdaniec666]

Here are fotos of a probably Bavarian husar sabre around 1710...

Corrado, what makes this specimen probably Bavarian? I am curious about the references. Thanks.

[corrado26]

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

[toaster5sqn]

Just having found this post and read the discussion about the mysterious notches. As a HEMA practioner there is a trick with sabres of snapping a short back edge draw cut at your opponents sword hand or wrist. I'm given to understand it comes from Hungarian sources but can't confirm this as my own study has been focused on British sources.

The point is this is not an effective cut and in no way could it be a fight ending blow, its intent is to injure your opponents hand just enough to give you an advantage going forward and the notch does appear perfect for this technique.

It is also a technique for one on one duels not open battle which may explain why it appears on only some blades, both officer and enlisted. This would suggest that the owner of that particular blade was willing and prepared to fight a duel, or at least wished to appear as such.

The fact that the technique does not appear in the British manuals and that the notches do not appear on British blades may be considered suggestive but hardly constitutes proof.

Robert

[corrado26]

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

[Norman McCormick]

What please is a "HEMA practioner"?

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Robert, this is in my opinion a brilliant answer to a most obscure question, that is, what in the world were these notches for? which has vexed me for over two decades. As discussed through this thread it seems the most notable presence of this notch at the back of the blade near the tip was on Austrian swords (Wagner, Prague,1967) as shown in as many as 6 or 8 swords (cannot recall offhand).

As these were drawings, I could not fathom why an artist would include such a feature unless it was deliberately placed in the place, and not some random damage as suggested to me by some who I queried. I did confirm with the museums where the actual examples drawn by Wagner were held, and these swords did indeed have the 'notch'.

In fencing, as you certainly know, in fencing, that is combat or duel oriented, the element of distraction by inflicting a wound was of course practiced in various instances. Bear with me as I try to recall...in Italy(originally) the 'stramazone' was a slashing cut swept across the face, especially forehead,causing of course heavy bleeding.

In Scotland, the placement of extended wrist guards on basket hilts was to protect from the wrist cut.

It makes perfect sense that a small notch creating a sharp barb would be remarkably effective for such a typically unexpected backhand move contrary to the expected passes and parries.
In the 'Spanish fight' (destreza) Spaniards used unexpected moves like this with blows to the head or face creating the same distractive result.

This is the first entirely reasonable explanation that seems to make perfect sense. The notions of this inconsequential notch to pick up objects off the ground or to worsen the wound in a thrust both seem patent nonsense but understandably suggested when trying to find a pragmatic solution.

Like many things in actual practice, especially with dueling, which was typically a situation which was formally forbidden, outlawed etc. and with many combat oriented conventions, these would not, understandably, be well documented, if at all.

[corrado26]

Historical European Martial Arts
Regards,
Norman.
Thank you!!

[toaster5sqn]

Thank you Jim, but it's still just an idea until someone finds some evidence.

Regarding the wrist guards on Scottish broadswords, fencing manuals from Scotland actually detail various techniques for cutting to the wrist or forearm. This was because disabling the weapon hand was a guaranteed duel win without the risk of being charged with murder for killing your opponent.

Robert

[Jim McDougall]

You're right Robert ,
of course the chances of finding documented evidence, as often the case in these kinds of obscure details is pretty slim. The guys writing here have mentioned this type of slashing cut in previous posts, and depending on what sources from which they may have acquired their notations, if not connected might suggest corroboration. Still, at best, we only have reasonable plausibility, but intriguing just the same.

[rysays]

What's possibly relevant is this line from Louis Alfred le Blanc de Chatauvillard's "Essai sur le duel" (1836), where notched or chipped swords are expressly forbidden in the duel with epee:
"Les lames des épées ne doivent , dans aucun cas , être tranchantes ni ébréchées."
This apparently refers to the practice of intentional sharpening or chipping the blade of an epee to cause illegitimate cuts in disputes that were decided by blood. However, there's no mention of notches in the code for the duel with sabers- only that the combatants must wield swords of the same mount, style, & length. Separate provisions are made for saber duels with or without points, but specific blade prohibitions like with the epee are absent. It's possible that the practice of notching sabers had fallen out of fashion in France by the time of this text & was unknown to the author, or it could be that it was acceptable practice & didn't bear mentioning. There is a requirement for duelists to wear either a glove or a handkerchief to protect the hand, so the advantage of such a notch may have lost its usefulness by this time. Another possibility could lie in Germanic dueling traditions, as the majority of these blades seem to be from regions where the mensur would become popular.

[awdaniec666]

Hilts with these big rivets I only know from Bavarian swords and sabres, so I wrote "probably". See the scans from "Gerd Maier, Bayerische Blankwaffen Teil 1-3"

Thanks a lot!



It is also a technique for one on one duels ...

While I´m a big enthusiast of bringing in HEMA experience into arms and armour studies, one must recognize that fighting on horseback and cavalry maneuvers in general have nothing to do with fencing (when defined as one vs one on ground). This is why I think the notches have a more "practical/tool-like" context. But hey - who knows!

[Jim McDougall]

RySays, that cite from 1836 reference with regard to the deliberate notching (barbing?) of epee is most telling.
As I have noted many times over the years, my intrigue with this curious notching of sword blades near the point at back began with Wagner's work in 1967 which showed a number of Austrian blades with such notches.

In over two decades of research, most fencing authorities, museums (including those holding original examples) , military historians etc. had virtually no idea on these 'notches'. It was truly as if nobody had paid any attention to this deliberate and curious feature, and worse, the general attitude 'who cares'? became evident.

It is this 'attitude' which often prevails in historical trivia that piques my antiquarian obsessions, and I simply must at least try to find an answer.
You guys here have far more exposure and experience in European resources as well evidenced in these outstanding and salient entries.

A favorite film of mine, "the Duelists" (1977) directed by Ridley Scott, is to me one of the most superb movies and attention to detail in historical aspects as well as some of the best dueling scenes, and which to me are captivating.
While of course there are many critics who will say otherwise, that is to be expected, however of most fencing authorities I have known and talked with concur with my view in the general accuracy portrayed.

While HEMA is a wonderful study on historic martial arts, some of the fencing masters I have known have certain reservations toward that organization in similar fashion. It is of course a matter of opinion and perspective.

Naturally there are differences in the elements of swordplay when engaged in combat or as seen in the movie,"the Duelists' in a cavalry duel, from those employed in the typical arranged duel. I recall Christoph Amberger years ago when we talked about the 1812 painting "Officer of the Imperial Horse Guards Charging" where he had noted the possible connection of the portrayal with a 'rear guard' action of scheduled sword combat while mounted.
In the mounted duel in the film 'The Duelist' the riders are in position to 'give point' with the sword held high and straight forward.

Basically what I am saying is that, the notching of blades in this manner for the purpose of inflicting distracting wounds, as shown here in the case of dueling, makes perfect sense. As seen in the 1977 film, dueling with regular cavalry sabers was of course practiced in many cases, and the 1908 work "The Duel", by Joseph Conrad, on which the movie is based, the fierce obsession with 'honor' was prevalent in the military much as in the civilian gentry.
It seems profoundly plausible that military officers would have swords so notched, for the instance of such a duel, or to allude to such readiness......and the 'notch' had nothing to do with worsening of wounds in actual combat, nor for the mundane work as a tool for retrieving objects.

[Jim McDougall]

In another interesting twist with the notch, from "Lore of Arms" (Reid, 1976), is this hunting sword captioned in line drawing 'of late 17th c'.
The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte.

The 'notch' is illustrated near the point as in discussed examples.

[fernando]

... The blade is by Corrientes (#24 in Palomares, but working in Madrid, not Toledo as indicated in illustration) with name unusually at back of blade near forte...
In Palomares chart it says he also worked in Madrid. As also mentioned by Leguina ;).
According to Rodriguez del Canto, Corrientes is said to have already forged short blades for espadines (short swords).

[Jim McDougall]

In Palomares chart it says he also worked in Madrid. As also mentioned by Leguina ;).
According to Rodriguez del Canto, Corrientes is said to have already forged short blades for espadines (short swords).

Thank you so much Fernando. I have been trying to work through old notes and references on the Spanish blades still working on the dilemma discussed with the SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ blades, as I think there is far more to this case than I had thought. Basically while I have it seems been inclined to defer to most of these blades being German, you of course had reservations, which now seem to have been well placed, and your position toward some cases being to the early masters. As you had suggested, though Toledo was in decline, it did not mean the masters disappeared......but as you noted, were likely working in some of the other Spanish centers.

While I have found Beraiz, and Lorente (on the perillo) I cannot find my copies of del Canto,Legiuna, nor Lhermite .

The note on Corrientes having made short blades for ESPADINES is perfect!! and most valuable information, thank you again!

Best,
Jim

[fernando]

Speaking of Toledo decline and as read in Don Enrique de Leguina (Los Maestros Espaderos 1897), still in 1627 Toledan blades were quoted to have the highest prices around, such as 24 reales; while those of Seville were priced 22 reales and those from Germany having a significant lower price; 10 reales.



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[awdaniec666]

I must say that I´m not convinced regarding the use of those nothces in fencing. This beeing said I´ll observe where this is going.

[Jim McDougall]

it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references.

666, no problem with being skeptical on the notches (to create a 'barb' for wounding in dueling, not particularly fencing per se'). I admit being entirely skeptical for these clearly deliberate notches on swords pragmatically suggested for 'picking up items' as the notch is patently insufficient for such.

As for unusual 'tricks' and 'features' in the swordplay employed in dueling, these are of course known and understandable, but not particularly well documented any more than the legendary, 'botte secrete'.
In the 'Spanish fight', la Verdedara Destreza, the primary objective, as I have understood, was to disarm the opponent, or force concession. In most instances it would seem that protection of honor by satisfaction was the goal, and such wounding distractions would provide such release.

I think these are the perspectives to be considered, rather than the dramatic notion of such barbs/notches being intended to worsen wounds in a thrust, which is also as far as I can see, patently unnecessary.

That leaves very little room for a plausible explanation for this mysterious convention which seems to have quite deliberately placed on the blades of a good number of swords in Austria, France, Hungary, Netherlands in the early to mid 18th century, possibly later. In these cases, it would seem the feature was nominally placed in the blades with potential dueling in mind, regardless of such possibility.
With cavalry, especially the hussars, fashion and flamboyant allusion was important, so the notion of a 'dueling' notch on a mans blade......well, you see what I mean?

[Victrix]

Regarding the notches, I guess one should keep an open mind until theories can be disproven. Earlier in the thread one of our more esteemed experienced members mentioned notches on pallasches and mentioned in post #16 that he had not seen them on Austro-Hungarian sabres. He mentioned he had seen them on German swords as well. Then it seems there are some British and Dutch swords that have them as well. It should be realised that people often served in foreign armies to gain experience. So there could have been Germans serving in British or Dutch forces and notching their swords. You wonder what the authorities thought about the notches and whether regulations allowed it.

Interesting theory about notches used for duels. In Germanic countries they still have student fraternities devoted to sword duels. But wouldn’t Wagner have known about this? Also were pallasches really used in duels?? They look too clumsy to “fence” with, especially on foot.

Coincidentally, Santa gave me a notched sword for Christmas. I learned about the notches on this forum and thought it would be a nice example to have in my collection… More on that later. Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh. :D :shrug:

[fernando]

it does seem in more reading that Toledo activity did continue in degree past 1650, as per the dating of a number of authentic Spanish blades I found in references...
In 1760, during a period in which Palomares and others intended to request the King to revive the factory, he has wrote in his report: "Es indudable que la Fabrica de espadas de Toledo floreció con gran fama hasta fin del siglo XVII"; meaning: There is no doubt that the Sword Factory of Toledo flourished with great fame until the end of the 17th century.
(Espaderos Toledanos by Esperanza Pedraza Ruiz).

[fernando]

... Then you can all start the debate on notches afresh. :D :shrug:...
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[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely good stuff Fernando!!! Your resources are outstanding and your command through them remarkable. I must say you've given me totally new perspective on the Toledo dilemma. It would seem that despite the Solingen incursion into the sword blade market share, there were some masters still active carrying the Toledo tradition.

On the notches, again, perspective.
For me at least, it has been a most constructive 'discussion' which has presented new insights into a perplexing mystery that has vexed me for over two decades. I am deeply grateful for the insights and opinions shared by the very well informed guys here! :) regardless if a final solution is reached or not.

Victrix....REALLY, you got a notched saber from Santa? NO FAIR!
REALLY looking forward to more as promised.