Unknown sword

[ernesto.e]

Good morning gentleman,

I am Ernesto Esquivel from Mexico and I am a new member to this furom.
My main fucos are Chinese weapons but I'm still new and learning. One week
ago there was a sword on ebay but was not sure if its Chinese, but the price
went up high. ebay #7 4 0 5 4 7 8 0 8 6, can someone tell me what this is and why it came out high.

Gracias,
Ernesto

[Lew]

Good morning gentleman,

I am Ernesto Esquivel from Mexico and I am a new member to this furom.
My main fucos are Chinese weapons but I'm still new and learning. One week
ago there was a sword on ebay but was not sure if its Chinese, but the price
went up high. ebay #7 4 0 5 4 7 8 0 8 6, can someone tell me what this is and why it came out high.

Gracias,
Ernesto

Hi Ernesto

Welcome to the forum. The sword in question is an excellent ivory hilted Moro Datu (Chief's) kris from the Philippines. We do not discuss prices on the forum but all I can say is that is one the the nicest ones I have seen in a while. You did good.

Lew

[ibeam]

I think you have the wrong Title for the thread post. :D

Its a WELL KNOWN SWORD!

[ernesto.e]

Gracias, Loueblades for you information.


Good morning Ibeam, what do you mean I have the wrong tittle for this sword? can you explain pls.?

[Lew]

Gracias, Loueblades for you information.


Good morning Ibeam, what do you mean I have the wrong tittle for this sword? can you explain pls.?

Ernesto Ibeam was just joking around. :) For you it was an unkown sword but to the rest of the Moro sword collectors it was a very familiar sword.




Lew

[mmontoro]

Hi Ernesto,

I think Ibeam may have meant that for those with an interest in Moro weapons, that piece was an outstanding example that many of us were watching. Welcome to the forum!

Manny

[Lew]

I think you have the wrong Title for the thread post. :D

Its a WELL KNOWN SWORD!

Ibeam

Now you can clean the drool from your key board :p :D

Lew

[ernesto.e]

Thank you for the warm welcome my friends.

[Mark]

Welcome, Ernesto. I guess the answer to your question is that it is an outstanding example of its type. I am not hearing that the price went "too high," so that says something about its value I'd say.

[ernesto.e]

Hi Mark,

Excuse my ignorance,but are this swords/kris mass produced, I mean this particular one? if not much to ask, or any previous threads.

I hope the owner wouldnt' mind sharing a close up pictures of the handle
or does any one have similar copy to share.

Thank you,
Ernesto

[Rick]

Sorry nechesh .......... ;)

Ernesto , this is an earlier kris than the one shown in the ebay auction .

No , these swords were not mass produced ; each one is an individual work of art ; no two are exactly the same and they were produced by hand in very primitive forges compared to European shops .

A forum search using the word kris will provide further information.

[nechesh]

Sorry nechesh .......... ;)

Why, i oughta.....#!!*@%#!!! :D

[nechesh]

Hey Manny, i see you had a go at it. :)
Ernesto, this is a beautiful example of Moro sword smithing which i'll bet any of the Moro collectors here would have loved to get his hands on. I think the price was probably about right, we just don't all have that kinda cash lying around. :(

[panday]

I welcome you Ernesto, and per your request, here are a few photos of the Datu Kris.

[Andrew]

Congratulations, Panday! :)

[nechesh]

Congrats indeed Panday! (drool, drool :D )
One might wonder just how a sword of this quality that has obviously been taken care of manages to lose it's sheath. :confused:

[panday]

Nechesh, Andrew, thanks for the gratitude.
Just one lucky sword collector I guess!

[nechesh]

Cm'on Panday, i think money had a whole lot more to do with it than luck. ;)

[panday]

Naughty! naughty! Nechesh . . .
Of couse, I was fortunate enought to have a decent job, but my family comes first, if there's ever any left overs, I save 'em for my toys, you know the routine.

[MABAGANI]

Awesome catch, good I've been off ebay...lolz
Thanks for sharing photos.
The blade seems older than the hilt, maybe passed through several generations.
If it used to be a warrior's the original scabbard could've been too damaged to salvage and later the blade with new hilt was kept as pusaka.
Why so many missing scabbards from swords? battlefield pick ups...remember much was taken from the dead after war

[panday]

Guys, any comments on this two photos?
I am refering to the 2nd pics. (the kris with out a scabbard).

[MABAGANI]

The dot inlays match up, so rewrap is recent.

[Spunjer]

hi ernest e,
going back to the original topic of the thread; yes, it is a moro kris.











...i'm sure you know that by now, lol. just wanna add my two centimos, that's all

[ibeam]

!!!$$%%#^#&**#*($)_ Sorry wiping off the drool from my keyboard. :D :p

Bienvenido to the Forum Ernesto,

As Manny has kindly explained, I meant that more for collectors of “MORO SWORDS”. ;)

This particular kris is what I meant by being well known. Thank you Panday for posting the pictures.

[nechesh]

Yep Panday, i'd say that looks like you got a match. I suspected that the wrap was new on it since it looked too neat and clean.
Oh, and of course i know the routine, i was just removing the "luck" part as a factor. I have no doubt that you take care of the family first. :)
Of course, Mabagani being off ebay......hhmm.....well that might be considered lucky. :D
BTW Mabagani, do you think a piece like this would be a battle field pick-up? It doesn't look like the kind of kris that would see a lot of fighting.

[Battara]

PANDAY!!! So you're the one that beat me out of this!! (along with others :o ). Yes, I had been comparing this to the Cato example and I came to the conclusion this was the same puppy.

Also on the scabbard debate, I agree with Mabagani, and add another possiblility. Early on many American collectors threw away scabbards. :eek: Not must PI/Moro, but US Civil War and other historic pieces as well. :mad: Thus, for example, it is so much more valuable to have a scabbard on a US Civil War foot officer's or staff officer's sword.

[MABAGANI]

BTW Mabagani, do you think a piece like this would be a battle field pick-up? It doesn't look like the kind of kris that would see a lot of fighting.
I wouldn't rule out the possiblity, most the old kris are battle worthy, even the junggayan with the massive pommels, contrary to the thought that they are cerimonial. This kris in particular has some wear.

[nechesh]

I wasn't questioning whether or nor this blade is battle worthy as much as whether a datu who could afford silver inlay and ivory pommels would actually find himself on the battlefield with his men.

[pinoy]

Hi guys, another example of an inlayed kris.

[Rick]

What interests me about the Cato kris is the pommel material ; I wonder if it is truly elephant ivory , or is it made from a particularly large hippo tusk .
IIRC hippo tusks have the series of dark dots seen in picture #2 in the auction .

personally speaking ; I have never seen these dots in elephant ivory .

http://tinyurl.com/ko3lu

Comments ?

[ernesto.e]

Hay caramba!

I never expected that this sword was that complecated!

But its a good learning experience.

[Rick]

Ernesto , believe me ; stick with the Chinese stuff !
These Moro swords are sooo boring ........ ;) :D

[MABAGANI]

I wasn't questioning whether or nor this blade is battle worthy as much as whether a datu who could afford silver inlay and ivory pommels would actually find himself on the battlefield with his men.
In Moro culture, owning a fine sword or wealth did not exempt datus from fighting with his men or family...leadership also meant warrior prowess

[nechesh]

Ernesto , believe me ; stick with the Chinese stuff !
These Moro swords are sooo boring ........ ;) :D

Sure, in fact, i could help relieve your burden and easy all the confusion ;) ....just sell that puppy to me and you'll sleep much better. :D

[BSMStar]

Hey Rick......

Don't forget me! For you, I will beat anyones offer by a dollar. :D :D :D

But don't let nechesh know. :rolleyes:

[panday]

Sure, in fact, i could help relieve your burden and easy all the confusion ;) ....just sell that puppy to me and you'll sleep much better. :D



I second to that, Rick! in case Nechesh here pass that opportunity! You can email me direct any time, and I promise, I'll take care of it really good.

Btw, I'll show it to him once in a while like you do :)

[Rick]

HEY !!
Take it to Swap you guys (I won't be there) LOLZ .... :D



Now back to our regularly scheduled programming ; anyone besides me think the the pommel on the original subject kris may not be elephant ivory ?

[Battara]

Pinoy,

W :eek: W! Thank you for showing this example - georgios kris.

Rick,

I think you have a good point. I was wondering this myself for the same reasons, and it was not unheard of to use hippo ivory. This might explain some of why this pommel is not larger than it is (elephant being larger tusk).

[Ian]

Pinoy:

Lovely color to the ivory -- rich golden, with a slight reddish hue. Could this be dugong ivory? There is an example in Cato that he calls Sea cow (dugong),* and some time ago we had a discussion about dugong ivory on the old forum.

Ian.

Robert Cato. Moro Swords. Graham Bush Ltd: Singapore, 1996, Figure 42, p. 69

[panday]

What interests me about the Cato kris is the pommel material ; I wonder if it is truly elephant ivory , or is it made from a particularly large hippo tusk .
IIRC hippo tusks have the series of dark dots seen in picture #2 in the auction .

personally speaking ; I have never seen these dots in elephant ivory .

http://tinyurl.com/ko3lu

Comments ?

Sorry Rick, but I have to disagree with you about the hippo ivory thing. I am attaching a series of close up photo shots on the ivory kakatua where those dots are, and to my own observation, appears to me that it is part of a crack that was neutralized by some solvent/glue?, I can still feel the scar from it, and I think those solvents has to do with this dots. It look like it was sanded off and polished, but you can still feel the rough edges. Just my thought.

Couldn't sleep last night due to jetlag from long flight, so I start carving a scabbard for it (from an extra Maguindanoan scabbard of mine) just for protection.

[Rick]

Do you see any kind of a cross hatched pattern in the grain ?

[panday]

Do you see any kind of a cross hatched pattern in the grain ?

Rick, it's more like a fish scale grain pattern to me similar to my other ones.

[panday]

Pinoy:

Lovely color to the ivory -- rich golden, with a slight reddish hue. Could this be dugong ivory? There is an example in Cato that he calls dugong, and some time ago we had a discussion about dugong ivory on the old forum.

Ian.

Ian, here's another one.
I had mine polished, but didn't change a thing.
I thought ivory as it gets older they turn to light golden/yellow, like the aged pool cue balls, this ones are just dark orange. Tea stained?

[Ian]

The depth of color seems to vary a lot, but in general I think ivory gets darker with age and handling. I have several old ivory-hilted dha from Burma and Thailand that have ivory that is quite dark, almost as though it has been smoked.

I think that body oils (grease) get transferred during handling and carrying and this is mainly responsible for the color change. Add a little dirt (as seen in the fine cracks) and we end up with the familiar look of old ivory.

Dugong (sea cow, manatee) ivory has a distinct reddish hue to it. I've now seen several illustrated examples and I believe that I own a kris with dugong ivory (at least it was sold to me as dugong ivory by a Filipino dealer in Manila whom I have dealt with for many years, and it matches the color of the dugong hilt in Cato).

Ian.


Here are pictures of that hilt.

http://www.vikingsword.com/i3/e1427a.jpg

http://www.vikingsword.com/i3/e1427b.jpg

[panday]

Dugong (sea cow, manatee) ivory has a distinct reddish hue to it. I've now seen several illustrated examples and I believe that I own a kris with dugong ivory (at least it was sold to me as dugong ivory by a Filipino dealer in Manila whom I have dealt with for many years, and it matches the color of the dugong hilt in Cato).



Stellar sea cow/manatee/dugong raw material.

[Rick]

The depth of color seems to vary a lot, but in general I think ivory gets darker with age and handling. I have several old ivory-hilted dha from Burma and Thailand that have ivory that is quite dark, almost as though it has been smoked.

I think that body oils (grease) get transferred during handling and carrying and this is mainly responsible for the color change. Add a little dirt (as seen in the fine cracks) and we end up with the familiar look of old ivory.

Dugong (sea cow, manatee) ivory has a distinct reddish hue to it. I've now seen several illustrated examples and I believe that I own a kris with dugong ivory (at least it was sold to me as dugong ivory by a Filipino dealer in Manila whom I have dealt with for many years, and it matches the color of the dugong hilt in Cato).

Ian.


http://www.vikingsword.com/i3/e1427b.jpg

I'm seeing cross hatching on the left bottom corner in picture two which brings up a question ; do all ivory types (Marine ivory included) show this distinctive pattern ? :confused:

Panday , that Sea Cow ivory looks very porous in cross section .
Interesting .....

Rick

[kino]

Punal, good catch on that Kris. Congrats.

I believe the Seacow Ivory are the ribs that's why it's so porous. I have seen them for sale at Knife shows.

[Rick]

Punal, good catch on that Kris. Congrats.

I believe the Seacow Ivory are the ribs that's why it's so porous. I have seen them for sale at Knife shows.

Thank you Kino .
So this would then be fossil material ?

[kino]

Rick, It is indeed fossil material. The seller informed me that he obtains
some from Alaska and the Siberian tundra. They're beautiful polished.

[Ian]

Rick:

I think this may be an artefact of how I manipulated the image in Photoshop. Sometimes using the "sharpen" tool can create distortion and bring out patterns that aren't really there. The cross hatching is not visible in the original image.

The concentric rings and central vein suggest that this example is a tusk (tooth) rather than a rib.

Ian.

I'm seeing cross hatching on the left bottom corner in picture two which brings up a question ; do all ivory types (Marine ivory included) show this distinctive pattern ? :confused:

Panday , that Sea Cow ivory looks very porous in cross section .
Interesting .....

Rick

[ibeam]

Rick,

I believe they are called ossic.

[kino]

Ibeam, Oosik is below the ribs on the body, for humans. Only males have oosik's. Do you know what I mean. Living up here in the PNW, I see a few numbers for sale at curio shops. LOL

[panday]

Rick,

I believe they are called ossic.


Hi there Ibeam,
long time no talk! Oosik are walrus' male genital organ and they are also perfect as knive scales, handles, and others, it can also be carved and polished to sheen like ivory.

Example of Walrus oosik baculum and a Damascus fighting bowie knife with oosik handle.

[panday]

I believe the Seacow Ivory are the ribs that's why it's so porous. I have seen them for sale at Knife shows.[/QUOTE]


Kino,
You are absolutely right, this are sea cow ribs and most were fossilized, the ones that I have, are not(Stellar peices). I have contacted several sellers and asked them if there was really a sea cow ivory and all of them gave the same answer! sea cow bone, is ivory, sea cow tusk?

Question, the sea cow ivory on Cato's book, is that a bone or tusk?

[Ian]

Question, the sea cow ivory on Cato's book, is that a bone or tusk?

Don't know panday. See Figure 42, p. 69 of Cato. Looks like a solid piece to me.

Ian.

[panday]

Another example of a very raw material.
Sea cow/Dugong/Manatee Skeleton (stellar's collection)

[ibeam]

Thank you Kino (long time no talk!..;).. ) & Panday for the info,
I knew what part oosic was but never seen polished or finished walrus rib bone. :confused: Oosic looks very similar to Panday's pictures of rib bones in the box.

[MABAGANI]

In Moro culture, owning a fine sword or wealth did not exempt datus from fighting with his men or family...leadership also meant warrior prowess

Interesting quote from a historical article showing the interrelationship of Brunei and Ternate to the Moro Sultanates, and royal warriorship-

"Rajah Balatamay's story is one of the finest in the glorious years of the
sultanates.

Balatamay, who was from Buayan (Cotabato Upriver Valley) and Maguindanao
(then comprising most of Mindanao), was exiled to Sulu after he killed
Spanish Ambassador Melchor Lopez, a co-signatory of Sultan Kudarat to a
Spain-Maguindanao Treaty ceding parts of Mindanao to Spanish claims on Islas
Pilipinas in 1645.

His close friend Wasit gave Balatamay the highest defense post of the Sulu
sultanate and subsequently sent him to Brunei to lead the combined
reinforcement of Maguindanao and Sulu. He was to help Brunei's Sultan Saiful
Rijal quell a rebellion mounted in his kingdom by Visayan settlers.

It was said that the triumphant defense of the Brunei sultanate prompted
Rijal to reward the sultanate of Sulu with his government's property in
North Borneo, the Sabah territory (which Malaysia, declaring independence
from Britain, annexed in 1961), while the sultanate of Maguindanao was given
a territory in Ternate in what is now Indonesia.

*Blood evidence*

Kudarat's annexation of Ternate having been rewarded his sultanate bears
blood evidence in his descendants among the Diocolano family in Maguindanao,
whose matriarch was the princess of Ternate.

Returning to Sulu after almost two decades in the Brunei war, Balatamay
learned that his father-in-law was determined to enthrone his child by the
Sulu princess even if the child turned out to be a girl.

Balatamay declined to anoint his young daughter to reign over Sulu as
Pangian Ampay Putri Kabira after her grandfather. (Pangian is the feminine
title equivalent to the masculine sultan).

The son-in-law's opposition prompted the Sulu sultan to call for bloodshed
in a gladiators' fight of sorts: should there be none to take the challenge
of the sultan to fight his hardest fighting warrior, then it would become a
one-on-one fight between the father-in-law and the son-in-law—a kind of only
one wish, yours or mine, should prevail.

Datu M'gkap of Buayan took up the cudgel for Balatamay and won over the Sulu
warrior. But still, Balatmay submitted to his father-in-law, who still had
ultimate power to decide over the affairs of Sulu. Some historians say the
ascension to power of Pangian Ampay Putri Kabira remains an unresolved case
to this day in the Sulu sultanate's council, the Ruma Bichara."