keris bugis again

[La Pagaru]

All Varian pamor miring at Keris bugis

[kai]

Thanks a lot, nice examples!

Any more pics of these available? Pamor miring is quite rare in keris Bugis - thus, this is an exquisite lot for Sulawesi!

They all seem to have quite a bit of age (the selut and possibly hilt of the second from right may be more recent though).

Regards,
Kai

[Jean]

I agree with Kai's comments & compliments and would like to know if these blades are old or recent.
Regards

[La Pagaru]

I send more pictures

[La Pagaru]

Alameng and badik for discusions

[La Pagaru]

I agree with Kai's comments & compliments and would like to know if these blades are old or recent.
Regards
Thanks Kai, if I uploaded a new Keris, I must say like that, but if I uploaded old antique Keris bugis rare, I must to say like that, hehehe

[Jean]

Thanks Kai, if I uploaded a new Keris, I must say like that, but if I uploaded old antique Keris bugis rare, I must to say like that, hehehe

Hello La Pagaru,
In France your reply would be labelled as "from Normandy" or "may be yes, may be no" :D
And where are the new pics? :confused:
Regards

[David]

Alameng and badik for discusions
Please don't upload images of alameng or batik to this forum for discussion. This forum is solely for discussion of keris. The Ethnographic Forum is the place to discuss those other blade forms. Thanks! :)

[David]

Thanks Kai, if I uploaded a new Keris, I must say like that, but if I uploaded old antique Keris bugis rare, I must to say like that, hehehe
Well, you haven't said either way. If you don't know that is fine, but if you do know i would very much appreciate that you answer direct questions on the subject in a direct manner. Thanks! ;)

[La Pagaru]

I just send picture from yasir Mahmud colection

[La Pagaru]

Keris bugis lamba 3 kurissi

[La Pagaru]

Keris bugis sapukala or sepokal PAMOR KURISSI the name of PAMOR miring in South sulawesi

[La Pagaru]

Kurrissi again

[La Pagaru]

Keris bugis luk 3 to jiwa

[La Pagaru]

Yasir mAhmud have COLECTIONS Keris

[La Pagaru]

Grade PAMOR A+

[La Pagaru]

This is a Keris bugis parenringi, the Keris have a different PAMOR in 2 side , one with PAMOR KURISSI , one with PAMOR gantara

[Jean]

Hello La Pagaru,
Thank you, very nice collection, I just notice that some blades have welding flaws and some pics are repeated...
Regards :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Green]

La Pagaru;

Who is yasir mahmud? are ALL the keris pictures you showed belong to him?

Mr Maisey;

You comment about 'beauty is in the eye of beholder' is very true... but can you elaborate ? do you think the pics shown by la pagaru are not good bugis examples in your opinion? I really value your opinion and since I'm trying to learn and collect bugis keris would be thankful if you can elaborate.

[A. G. Maisey]

Green, I would prefer not to comment further.

[satsujinken]

La Pagaru, saya orang Surabaya, kalau butuh bantuan untuk terjemahan ke bahasa Inggris bisa saya bantu, tulis saja dan tag saya nanti saya terjemahkan agar member disini bisa lebih paham


@all

I wrote to La Pagaru just in case he needs help translating to English, I will help

Donny

[La Pagaru]

La Pagaru, saya orang Surabaya, kalau butuh bantuan untuk terjemahan ke bahasa Inggris bisa saya bantu, tulis saja dan tag saya nanti saya terjemahkan agar member disini bisa lebih paham


@all

I wrote to La Pagaru just in case he needs help translating to English, I will help

Donny can send email aja bang!! Entar di demo Lagi, GW dah director! Wkwkkwk

[La Pagaru]

La Pagaru;

Who is yasir mahmud? are ALL the keris pictures you showed belong to him?

Mr Maisey;

You comment about 'beauty is in the eye of beholder' is very true... but can you elaborate ? do you think the pics shown by la pagaru are not good bugis examples in your opinion? I really value your opinion and since I'm trying to learn and collect bugis keris would be thankful if you can elaborate.
Yasir Mahmud is young collector pusaka ini Indonesia specially bugis pusaka!!
He have almost completely COLECTION pusaka bugis

[La Pagaru]

La Pagaru;

Who is yasir mahmud? are ALL the keris pictures you showed belong to him?

Mr Maisey;

You comment about 'beauty is in the eye of beholder' is very true... but can you elaborate ? do you think the pics shown by la pagaru are not good bugis examples in your opinion? I really value your opinion and since I'm trying to learn and collect bugis keris would be thankful if you can elaborate.
Mr.green
This is I am send yasir Mahmud pict

[Green]

Thanks La Pagaru... yasir mahmud is a 'young collector'...now i'm beginning to understand Mr Maisey's comment better! experience and expertise do shows!

A pity though that Alan prefers not to give his opinion because I'd love to learn more, as my untrained eyes think that some examples shown by la pagaru are quite splendid, but obviously Mr Maisey thinks otherwise. I do not want to fall into the trap of buying bugis keris that looks 'sweet' but of questionable merit in future as i can hardly afford to spend money unwisely anymore...

But I do respect Alan's decision if he chooses not to give his opinion further of course.

[La Pagaru]

Thanks La Pagaru... yasir mahmud is a 'young collector'...now i'm beginning to understand Mr Maisey's comment better! experience and expertise do shows!

A pity though that Alan prefers not to give his opinion because I'd love to learn more, as my untrained eyes think that some examples shown by la pagaru are quite splendid, but obviously Mr Maisey thinks otherwise. I do not want to fall into the trap of buying bugis keris that looks 'sweet' but of questionable merit in future as i can hardly afford to spend money unwisely anymore...

But I do respect Alan's decision if he chooses not to give his opinion further of course.
Dear green
If u mine I am upload a new Keris, u abslotly wrong!! U can talk in Indonesian and singapure how I am and how much my dedicate for bugise culture! My be u reading my book SENJATA PUSAKA BUGIS karya Abe Ubbe and friends including me!! U can find my name's in the book!! My real name is Andi Aries pratama!

[Green]

La paragu,

I have that book you mentioned and I love the kerises in it. Very2 beautiful , all of them!

Sorry, I do not understand what you wrote . Can you rewrite in Bahasa Indonesia. I can read Bahasa Indonesia .

[La Pagaru]

La paragu,

I have that book you mentioned and I love the kerises in it. Very2 beautiful , all of them!

Sorry, I do not understand what you wrote . Can you rewrite in Bahasa Indonesia. I can read Bahasa Indonesia .
DEar green
first of all I would like to apologize if I am unfavorable ingrish language. you might think that a dagger which I uploaded is a new kris !! but I'll bet my capacity as a researcher and culture lovers, especially Bugis Bugis heritage. You should ask my name among friends in Indonesia singapore and malaysia! At the book senjata pusaka bugis you can find my name, my real name is Andi Pratama Aries! in close BTime I will release my book titled senjata pusaka bugis Dan serumpunnyar. In among collectors Bugis kaminpunya a principle, namely, the old, intact, beautiful prestige became a reference for collecting an inheritance for the collection! I've uploaded some new keris in different forums please see and distinguish! Thank you in advance

[La Pagaru]

This one a new Keris bugis

[La Pagaru]

This one after prosesing

[Green]

La pagaru

the peril of communication is second or thrid language!
At no time did i mention anything about the age of the keris!
My point is, I find the keris you posted good looking and I wonder why Mr Alan Maisey reserves his comment and I would like to learn what he thinks about the kerises!

(Bahaya kesilapan faham berkomunikasi dalam bahasa kedua atau ketiga!
Saya tidak pernah berkata tentang usia keris yang di tunjukkan!
Maksud saya, saya nampak keris2 yang di paparkan itu cantik, tetapi Alan Maisey tidak mahu komen, dan saya ingin tahu mengapa? supaya saya boleh pelajari daripada dia kerana dia seorang yang pakar tentang keris dan perkerisan.)

[David]

La pagaru

the peril of communication is second or thrid language!
At no time did i mention anything about the age of the keris!
My point is, I find the keris you posted good looking and I wonder why Mr Alan Maisey reserves his comment and I would like to learn what he thinks about the kerises!

(Bahaya kesilapan faham berkomunikasi dalam bahasa kedua atau ketiga!
Saya tidak pernah berkata tentang usia keris yang di tunjukkan!
Maksud saya, saya nampak keris2 yang di paparkan itu cantik, tetapi Alan Maisey tidak mahu komen, dan saya ingin tahu mengapa? supaya saya boleh pelajari daripada dia kerana dia seorang yang pakar tentang keris dan perkerisan.)
I don't wish to speak for Alan Maisey and i am sure he will come along at some point and speak to your concern here Green. However, Alan has made it clear countless times on this forum that both his expertise and interest lie in keris from Jawa, Bali and Madura. He is generally reluctant to comment on keris that are made outside of this area.

[David]

Sorry, I do not understand what you wrote . Can you rewrite in Bahasa Indonesia. I can read Bahasa Indonesia .
I do realize that language can be a problem with some and that communicating in languages other than our first one can be very difficult at times. I personally participate on forums where Indonesian languages dominate and find online translators very lacking. I must, however, reiterate that this is an English speaking forum. I have no problem with members posting in BOTH English AND Bahasa Indonesian if that is helpful, but i am afraid that i do have to insist that every post be in English as well. Thanks! :)

[Green]

Divid;

Alan has made plenty of comments in other posts on non jawa keris and other ethonagraphic weapons which I greatly benefit from!

And in this particular thread , if my understanding of english language is correct, his nuanced statement seem to indicate that he may have interesting opinion on these kerises (to put it nicely) and this is what pique my interest as my current interest happens to be bugis keris (which he amply knows)... and i want to learn something from him!

the beauty of this forum is that people are very open and free with their opinions (which i find very refreshing) unlike many other keris forums elsewhere.
I have learnt many things from honest comments from my posts and if at all i value criticism much more than praises as i learn more from criticisms than the later.

[kai]

Hello Andi,

Thanks for your efforts in posting keris Bugis on this forum and bearing with us and the language issues! (There are many participants whose primary language is not English. Thus, we know it can be tough, especially at the start - learning by doing can be also fun though...)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Nik,

Please also keep in mind that standards of quality can change between regions. There are already differences between Bugis blades from southern Sulawesi and Bugis-influenced keris from the Malay peninsula. Traditional Jawa tastes are very different.

Let me explain why I am, personally, not so fond of the keris blade shown in post #17:
Disclaimer. This is a keris with miring pamor which is much, much more difficult to forge than most other pamor (and much more costly since more material is lost in the process). Thus, we're speaking of high level skill not needed for more common keris!

1. The kurissi pamor is not well controlled: If you follow the twistcore from the base (very broad, distorted) to the tip (distorted in another way), there is no real consistency, no real motif exhibited in the final result (for both lines of twistcore).
2. There is a massive cold shut between the two rows of twistcore (from the base pretty much into the distal third of the blade); apparently the pande was working at his limits here.
3. Just as disconcerting is that this (non-)joint is not following the middle of the blade (ada ada) and the luk (also seen on the other side of the blade).
4. IMHO the garap of the blade and flow of lines don't look refined. Compare with the other blade shown in the last pic of post #16: The blade on the left looks fair while the last luk of this keris seems to almost fall off...
5. I'm also not a fan of the greneng at the base of the blade and, especially, the pejetan... (Maybe the gonjo got replaced or the greneng restored but still there seems to be finesse missing here.)


Please do correct me if I'm wrong with any of the raised concerns! Andi and Yasir, I apologize for being frank - just trying to help you, Nik...


I am interested in the extensive cold shut - I've never seen this with antique Bugis blades from western collections. Continued TLC and "washing" in tropical climates may play a role here. However, a cold shut can also be detected without heavy corrosion/etching. I've seen quite a lot of karmadikan blades with similar forging flaws which got turned into features by the sellers. Any insights into how this connects with traditional Bugis culture despite the rarity of old blades with these "features" would be very much appreciated!

Regards,
Kai

[La Pagaru]

Hello Nik,

Please also keep in mind that standards of quality can change between regions. There are already differences between Bugis blades from southern Sulawesi and Bugis-influenced keris from the Malay peninsula. Traditional Jawa tastes are very different.

Let me explain why I am, personally, not so fond of the keris blade shown in post #17:
Disclaimer. This is a keris with miring pamor which is much, much more difficult to forge than most other pamor (and much more costly since more material is lost in the process). Thus, we're speaking of high level skill not needed for more common keris!

1. The kurissi pamor is not well controlled: If you follow the twistcore from the base (very broad, distorted) to the tip (distorted in another way), there is no real consistency, no real motif exhibited in the final result (for both lines of twistcore).
2. There is a massive cold shut between the two rows of twistcore (from the base pretty much into the distal third of the blade); apparently the pande was working at his limits here.
3. Just as disconcerting is that this (non-)joint is not following the middle of the blade (ada ada) and the luk (also seen on the other side of the blade).
4. IMHO the garap of the blade and flow of lines don't look refined. Compare with the other blade shown in the last pic of post #16: The blade on the left looks fair while the last luk of this keris seems to almost fall off...
5. I'm also not a fan of the greneng at the base of the blade and, especially, the pejetan... (Maybe the gonjo got replaced or the greneng restored but still there seems to be finesse missing here.)


Please do correct me if I'm wrong with any of the raised concerns! Andi and Yasir, I apologize for being frank - just trying to help you, Nik...


I am interested in the extensive cold shut - I've never seen this with antique Bugis blades from western collections. Continued TLC and "washing" in tropical climates may play a role here. However, a cold shut can also be detected without heavy corrosion/etching. I've seen quite a lot of karmadikan blades with similar forging flaws which got turned into features by the sellers. Any insights into how this connects with traditional Bugis culture despite the rarity of old blades with these "features" would be very much appreciated!

Regards,
Kai
Dear Kai
thanks kai, I hope there will be future international exhibitions and if we could, we can to involve our collection so we can compare it with the existing !! I was the original Bugis. and I hope alan can participate in this forum! in Bugis we have various kinds of keris in various forms but the whole rancang bangun Bugis, Bugis was divided on a wide range of areas that have certain physical characteristics! keris Bugis very different from the keris in Java! but some keris keris Bugis influence in certain areas such as the local Malay, Sumatra, bima and others. This is due to the role of ancient Bugis migrants who wander very far from home, namely South Sulawesi! the quality of our iron very famous until now, we did not have a record of the main problems we call the masters or panre. but we have a record of good or bad about a heirloom in our lives! once again I hope alan can join and participate in this forum ! And
Regards LP

[La Pagaru]

Dear all

This time I post a keris without camera effects, hopefully be discussed together ,. keris Bugis sepokal

[La Pagaru]

Dear all
slightly deviated from the discussion, we Bugis have expertise in making this the dagger with beautiful and hard PAMOR, my upload so you can to see a different

[A. G. Maisey]

I thank all concerned for your repeated invitations to join this discussion, however, the posts that have already been made, and especially the photographs of keris, make it very clear to me that I lack the current knowledge necessary to participate usefully.

Edit:- Reference to:-

Pamor dan Landasan Spiritual
Senjata Pusaka
Bugis
Ahmad Ibbe, Andi Irwan Zulfikar, Dray Vibranto Senewe
ISBN 978-979-22-7729-6

may assist in clarification

[kai]

Hello Andi,

Nice fittings of the keris shown in #39!

With what metal have the gaps in this blade been closed?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

P.S.: It would be really great, if you were to provide a translation of the manuscript you posted, Andi - I'm sure Donny will be glad to help. Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hello Andi,

Nice fittings of the keris shown in #39!

With what metal have the gaps in this blade been closed?

Regards,
Kai

The blade looks like it has cold shuts on both sides almost the entire length.

[La Pagaru]

u can contac me on my email in ariesrappang01@gmail.com mybe i can answer any questions. in here i cant speak because i can not speak englis


regrads
Lp

[satsujinken]

P.S.: It would be really great, if you were to provide a translation of the manuscript you posted, Andi - I'm sure Donny will be glad to help. Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Kai

the problem is the manuscript was written using language I don't understand :D

[kai]

Hello Donny,

Sure, we first need Andi to translate it into BI; then we can try BI into English...

Regards,
Kai

[La Pagaru]

Hello Donny,

Sure, we first need Andi to translate it into BI; then we can try BI into English...

Regards,
Kai
dear kai and dony,
ok, i am try to translete the manuskrip for u all, but just this one,

regrad LP

[kai]

Great - thanks, Andi!

Take your time though.

Best wishes,
Kai

[Sajen]

I am interested in the extensive cold shut - I've never seen this with antique Bugis blades from western collections.

Hello Kai,

here you go: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8196&highlight=keris

Regards,
Detlef