18th Miquelet Lock Musket, Catalonian Maker Info Needed

[dana_w]

I am photographing this Spanish Musket for WeaponsCollector.com today. The makers mark on the barrel appears to be that of Joan (Juan) Prat. I've found this unattributed information on-line.

Joan (Juan) Prat, a Basque gunsmith, was active circa 1780 in Ripoll, in Gerona province in the eastern Spanish Pyrenees, 20 miles south of the French border.

The Prat family is mentioned in Dr. James D. Lavin's A History of Spanish Firearms on page 274:

Prats, M. , A Ripoll lockmaker active during the final quarter of the seventeenth century. His mark together with the date 1686 appears on the battery of a three-barrelled gun in the Museo Arqueolégico Nacional, Madrid (6417). The family of Prats or Prat manufactured locks and barrels in Ripoll until the middle of the eighteenth century.

Several Prats are listed in Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna, desde la epoca romana hasta nuestros dias (Biographical Dictionary of Artists of Catalonia, from Roman times to the present day) by J. F. Rafols, (1951), see attached images. I don’t speak Spanish and have yet to pass these listing by Google Translate.

I'd appreciate any additional information or clarification on Joan Prat and the Prat family.

[Fernando K]

Hello

This is not a musket, but a shotgun. The barrel channel stretches beyond the handle and the lock is the so-called "all three fashions".

The Ripoll PARAT lineage includes 22 gunsmiths

Ramiro Larrañaga, in "Historical Synthesis of the Basque Armory", page 266, brings the following news

PRAT Line of arms of Ri`poll. 17th and 18th centuries. There are more than 22 teachers of this surname

That's it

Affectionately. Fernando K

PS I did not see the inscription on the plate of the lock
Traductor de Google para empresas:Google Translator ToolkitTraductor de sitios webGlobal Market Finder

[dana_w]

Thanks for the info on the PARAT lineage Fernando K. Would you translate the Joan (Juan) Prat entries from the Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna for me?

I have not found any inscription on the lock yet. I may remove it to check the inside soon.

I am not clear on why you think this long gun was made exclusively for shot and not ball. Are you trying to say it is because the stock doesn't extend the length of the barrel?

[Fernando K]

Hello dana

Yes, exactly. The stock does not extend to the mouth, the drumstick gets into where the stock ends and because it is a quality weapon. The hunting bayonet in iodine case, gets into the barrel

You will be translating the tickets for IOAN PRAT, but tomorrow

Greetings. Fernando K

[dana_w]

Hello dana

Yes, exactly. The stock does not extend to the mouth, the drumstick gets into where the stock ends and because it is a quality weapon. The hunting bayonet in iodine case, gets into the barrel

You will be translating the tickets for IOAN PRAT, but tomorrow

Greetings. Fernando K

Interesting. That is not a distinction I remember reading about. I've seen many smooth bore half stock long guns being called Muskets. The bore on this weapon is around .75" (19.05 mm). It closely resembles the diameter on a Brown Bess.

[Fernando K]

PRATS, Joan. "Master of works" (mason) of the second half of the 15th century. I worked with Bartollome Mas in the church of Pino de Barcelona

PRATS, Joan. Maestro plateero barcelones, from the 15th century - I finish his "pasantia" in 1579, presenting a ring. In his entrance in the books of the guild it is made record that he has to pass new examinations in 1593 and 1616

PRATS "Master stocmaker" of the 15th century, born in Barcelona. It is known to him City councilman for the consular year of 1644 - 1665

PRATS, Joan "Master of works" (mason) of the 16th century .. Together with Jose Rovira and helped by his son Jose, I built in 1670 the base of the high altar in the parish of Esparraguerra.

[Fernando K]

Francisco de GOYA

[fernando]

Interesting. That is not a distinction I remember reading about. I've seen many smooth bore half stock long guns being called Muskets ...
Distinction between either, in 'non technical' descriptions, doesn't often take place; yet such is a commonly accepted concept. Half stocked examples are usually hunting 'escopetas'; he term musket being more of a generic name, not so compromised with typology. Also surprising that, a gun of this quality would not have the lock maker name or mark well visible, once these are 'never' the same as cannon masters.

[fernando]

So ...

.

[dana_w]

Distinction between either, in 'non technical' descriptions, doesn't often take place; yet such is a commonly accepted concept. Half stocked examples are usually hunting 'escopetas'; he term musket being more of a generic name, not so compromised with typology. Also surprising that, a gun of this quality would not have the lock maker name or mark well visible, once these are 'never' the same as cannon masters.

Thanks for the additional clarification fernando. I'll keep that in mind and mention this " commonly accepted concept" when I write the description.

Thanks so much for the scan of the marks too.

[dana_w]

It is a little hard to tell but the weapons in Francisco de GOYA's, Dogs on leash, look like they could be full stock. Here is a larger and clearer photo.

[Fernando K]

Hello dana

Yes, exactly. Also in the painting of GOYA, Carlos ii, hunter, has a shotgun with the complete stock, and at his waist you can see the hunting bayonet.

In the best picture of dogs hunting, you can also see the hunting bayonet.

Fernando k

[dana_w]

Hello dana

Yes, exactly. Also in the painting of GOYA, Carlos ii, hunter, has a shotgun with the complete stock, and at his waist you can see the hunting bayonet.

In the best picture of dogs hunting, you can also see the hunting bayonet.

Fernando k

Interesting, I didn't realize plug bayonets were used for hunting. Thanks for pointing me to the image.

[fernando]

They are full stocked indeed.
Maybe this hunter fancied hunting with, not one but, a pair of muskets ... and two dogs leashed to each other with such short steel chain. All very unusual, don't you agree ?
Isn't this what we call over here artistic freedom ?

[fernando]

Interesting, I didn't realize plug bayonets were used for hunting. Thanks for pointing me to the image.
That's why we call them hunting bayonets (baioneta de caça over here and cuchillo de caza in Spain), as this was the original idea. You shoot a beast that often strikes back if is only hurt and you don't have time to reload your gun. The solution is plug the hunting bayonet and sustain its charge.

[fernando]

...I'll keep that in mind and mention this " commonly accepted concept" when I write the description...
Another approach is, you may see hunting escopetas with full stock, but you never see military muskets with half stock ;) .

[dana_w]

Another approach is, you may see hunting escopetas with full stock, but you never see military muskets with half stock ;) .


Never? Are you sure about that fernando? :)

[fernando]

Never? Are you sure about that fernando? :)
Well, i am looking at dozens of military examples shown by Barceló Rubi and Calvó Pascual and only three late short 'tercerolas' are half stocked. All carbines, musketoons and fusils are fully stocked.
You may conclude by yourself :o.

[dana_w]

Well, i am looking at dozens of military examples shown by Barceló Rubi and Calvó Pascual and only three late short 'tercerolas' are half stocked. All carbines, musketoons and fusils are fully stocked.
You may conclude by yourself :o.

I've learned not to use the term "never" :)

[fernando]

A 'modern' tercerola is not a musket ... but you may change "never" to "rarely", though :shrug:.
I am no scholar Dana; i allow myself 'digestive' assumptions as figures of speech, depending on the context ... and i have also learnt a few thing during my 69 years ;) :cool: :D .

[dana_w]

A 'modern' tercerola is not a musket ... but you may change "never" to "rarely", though :shrug:.
I am no scholar Dana; i allow myself 'digestive' assumptions as figures of speech, depending on the context ... and i have also learnt a few thing during my 69 years ;) :cool: :D .

I bow to your advanced age :) and deeply appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

[fernando]

I bow to your advanced age :) and deeply appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
Are you kiding me ? my age is not that advanced :confused: ... and neither is my knowledge .. at all :o.
Obviously we are simplifying things when differentiating shoulder guns typology only by their stock length. Deoration has a lot to do with it, as Fernando K well reminded. While military weapons have/had a more austere look, is on hunting guns that usually smiths have a go with their artistry, either on barrels as also on locks; don't you agree ?

[dana_w]

Are you kiding me ? my age is not that advanced :confused: ... and neither is my knowledge .. at all :o.
Obviously we are simplifying things when differentiating shoulder guns typology only by their stock length. Deoration has a lot to do with it, as Fernando K well reminded. While military weapons have/had a more austere look, is on hunting guns that usually smiths have a go with their artistry, either in barrels and locks; don't you agree ?

Yes, I agree! And Yes, I am KIDDING you about you mentioning your age.

[fernando]

:cool:

[fernando]

Now if you don't mind, this is definitely a topic for the European forum. I don't know how i didn't notice this before but, we are still in time to move it to that section ... and expect further comments on this fine gun.

[dana_w]

Now if you don't mind, this is definitely a topic for the European forum. I don't know how i didn't notice this before but, we are still in time to move it to that section ... and expect further comments on this fine gun.


A good point. Sorry about posting in the wrong forum.

[Norman McCormick]

[QUOTE=fernando]Are you kiding me ? my age is not that advanced :confused: ...


Mmmmm!!!! :D :eek: :p :D

[fernando]

So what, Norman; are you envious of my youth ? :rolleyes: .

[Norman McCormick]

I've been trying to convince my wife :eek: that my 63 years, please note 63 is less than 69, would look better if I partook of your famous Portuguese tipple after dinner after all I have held you up as an example of the youth giving properties of Port for years.
Kind Regards,
Norman


OOPS :eek: She has just rumbled that Fernando and Ronaldo are two different people :eek: ;)

[machinist]

I really enjoy Peninsular Miquelets and want to learn as much as I can about them, what is the meaning of "all three fashions" applied to the lock in this case?

[fernando]

Fernando K is the man able to distinguish all lock styles at first sight.
In an atempt to 'antecipate' him, i will advance that, the three fashions (a las tres modas) variant, is a mix of all three styles, “a la española”, “a la francesa” y “a la romana”. It may be identified by the safe point of the 'cats foot' being situated in the angle that forms the 'patilla' arm.
Note that the interpretation of lock styles some times differs from diverse writers criteria.

.

[Fernando K]

Hi machinist

The miquelete "to the three fashions" differs from the classic miquelete. First, from the classic miquelete retains the firing system, the actual spring acting on the heel of the cat's foot, the cat's foot with the pedrero screw with his claqsica argolla. Second The bowl no longer has the false flange as in the classic miquelete, but the flange forms partye of the bowl, and the frizen is curved, as in the French key, although it is scratched, as in the miquelete. Third, by the placement of the spring of the frizen, which is not hidden by the flange, but is in view, as in the Roman lock, in front of the main spring.

Affectionately, Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Dear tocayo

I differ with you, and with Calvo obviously. The example he has chosen is still a classic miquelete, with its bridle false, although it distances in one thing, the placement of the spring of the frizen, as in the key to the Roman. The fact that the half-mounted chock acts on the internal curve of the pin is not decisive, as there are specimens of pure miquelete with that characteristic.

It differs, of course, from the copy that has gone up dana

A hug. Fernando K

[fernando]

Nothing to say, Fernando; you are the one who knows. But as i previously approached, it is Calvó himself that admits the existence of different interpretations.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/recuerdos77.pdf

.

[Fernando K]

Dear namesake

Exactly, the page of Calvo is missing the copy that has been accepted by Dana. The one that has the bowl with its built bridle, and that is the one that refers the document of the real Palace that is reproduced in LAVIN

A hug. Fernando K

[fernando]

Dear namesake

Exactly, the page of Calvo is missing the copy that has been accepted by Dana. The one that has the bowl with its built bridle, and that is the one that refers the document of the real Palace that is reproduced in LAVIN

A hug. Fernando K

Caro tocaio
In what page of LAVIN's book is that reference ?

Here is an example of llave a las tres modas, made by Manuel Sutil in 1741, as illustrated in the Catálogo de arcabuceria madrileña (Real Armeria de Madrid).
Is this the correct style ?

.

[Fernando K]

Querido tocayo

La mencion esta en pagina239, en el apendice A

Una llave a las tres modas concluida segun se acostumbra, nueve doblones cencillos (sic)

Piezas sueltas
.............................
Plantilla con el Estribillo en la Cazoleta

Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Dear namesake

The mention is on page239, in appendix A

A key to the three fashions concluded as it is customary, nine doubloon cencillos (sic)

Loose Pieces
.............................
Template with the Chorus in the Bowl

Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Namesaque

Yes, it is the correct stile

Fernando K

[fernando]

Gracias tocayo.

[Miqueleter]

My 2 cents worth. I agree 100% with K's #33 post. As you said, the man knows his miquelets. :)

[machinist]

Well that was informative, thanks to both of you Fernando, and Fernando K! :)

[dana_w]

I've removed the lock to check for additional markings. Unfortunately, there are none.

For clarity on this particular Miquelet Lock, I offer these additional photos.

[dana_w]

My 2 cents worth. I agree 100% with K's #33 post. As you said, the man knows his miquelets. :)


Always nice to hear from you too Miqueleter.

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone

Although the lock does not have any inscription, it shows an excellent work in its realization and even the engraving of is of quality

Thanks to Dana for the photos

Affectionately. Fernando K

[fernando]

I assume my limitation and confess my difficulty in discerning some technical details between the various lock variations. This is agravated by the lexicon applied by Fernando K being subject to engine translation ... not the best for converting technical terms. If i try to figure out the meaning of the expression 'bowl with its built bridle', i realize this means 'frizzen fixed in the pan', a detail i find too subtle to distinguish by myself when i look at the different versions; perhaps more visible if i saw these differences well signaled...
But what i think i discern with certainty is how the frizzen spring is situated 'above' or 'in front' of the main spring which, being the Armeria Real example considered correct by Fernando K, doesn't however correspond to that of Dana's example, both assumed as being part of the tres modas version. Would it be that, as Calvo (and not only) notes, Miquelete variants classification is somehow discussable ...

.

[fernando]

Speaking of patilla lock variations, and if Dana doesn't mind, i here upload an example of Portuguese 'patilha de invenção' lock, made by master Bartholomeu Gomes, dated 1781.

.

[dana_w]

Speaking of patilla lock variations, and if Dana doesn't mind, i here upload an example of Portuguese 'patilha de invenção' lock, made by master Bartholomeu Gomes, dated 1781.

I certainly don't mind fernando. Collectively we have access to many wonderful examples of Miquelet Lock styles. The forum gives us a good opportunity to examine any unique differences.

[Fernando K]

Hola, tocayo

A pesar de las dificultadees de la traducion, respondo a tu inquietud

Primero. La gran diferencia con la llave "a las tres modas" esta en la brida del rastrillo, que en el miquelete es postiza (debajo de la calzoleta) y en la llave a la tres modas, como en la llave francesa, la brida forma parte integral de la cazoleta (Estrivillo, dice el documento del Palacio reproducido por LAVIN)

Segundo. El resorte del rastrillo esta a la vista, y no oculto como en el miquelete, debajo de la brida y oculto por este, y el vetice apunta en la misma direccion que el resorte mayor, y no como en el miquelte, que tiene el vetice hacia el pie de gato y el extremo aapuntando al extremo delantero de la platina. El echo de que el resorte del rastrillo este situado arriba o delante del resorte mayor, es intrascendente, y depende del constructor de la llave, y del largo que le quiso dar a la platina de la llave.

Tercero. A veces, el resorte no es plegado, sino que es curvo, como sucede en algunos ejemplares de miquelete, pero sigue estando a la vista (aunque la cazoleta tenga una brida postiza, como en ejemplar mostrado por Calvo) pero sigue la misma orientacion que en la llave a la romana

Cuarto Se puede notar que la posicion del calzo de media monta difiere en los dos ejemplares, pero no es definitorio.

Creo que es todo

Un anrazo. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Hello, namesake

In spite of the difficulties of the translation, I respond to your concern

First. The big difference with the key "to the three fashions" is in the flange of the rake, that in the miquelete is false (under the knob) and in the key to the three fashions, as in the French key, the flange forms part Integral of the cup (Estrivillo, says the document of the Palace reproduced by LAVIN)

Second. The spring of the rake is visible, and not concealed as in the miquelete, under the flange and concealed by it, and the vetice points in the same direction as the major spring, and not as in the miquelte, which has vetice Towards the cat's foot and the end pointing to the front end of the platen. The fact that the spring of the rake is located above or in front of the major spring is inconsequential, and depends on the builder of the key, and the length that he wanted to give to the stage of the key.

Third. Sometimes, the spring is not bent but curved, as is the case with some examples of miquelete, but it is still visible (although the cup has a flange, as in an example shown by Calvo), but it follows the same orientation as In the key to the Roman

Fourth It may be noted that the position of the half-mounted chock differs in the two exemplars, but is not definitive.

I think that's all

[fernando]

Thanks for caring, tocayo :cool:

[dana_w]

fernando, do you have a photo of the Bartholomeu Gomes lock at half-cock?

[fernando]

fernando, do you have a photo of the Bartholomeu Gomes lock at half-cock?
No ... but i can take one.

.

[dana_w]

No ... but i can take one..

Thanks. That makes the half-cock sear obvious.

[fernando]

... And the frizzen spring so hidden behind the pan base decor.

[dana_w]

For comparison this Patilla style miquelet lock is by Armanguer, a gun-lock maker who worked in Ripoll circa 1675

[fernando]

In this case the half and full cock sears working in a different order position, right ?
BTW, is this one yours ?

[dana_w]

In this case the half and full cock sears working in a different order position, right ?
BTW, is this one yours ?


That is right fernando. In the case of the lock by Armanguer, the half-cock sear is below the full-cock sear. For your Gomes lock it is above and doesn't engage the toe.

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone
Although a bit redundant and obvious, I upload a scheme of the rake bridle in the miquelete. It is an insert, independent of the bowl, and I have drawn two methods of fixing to the platinum. The false bridle is placed on its flare and comes to be retained by the frizen screw.

In the three primitive miquelete specimens photographed by LAVIN (pages 156, 173, 174) the method of sjecion can be clearly seen. Who has not had a copy in the hands, and is guided only by the photographs, can be confused, and think that is part of the bowl.

Below is the outline of a French bowl, with the bridle forming part of the piece.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[dana_w]

Below is the outline of a French bowl, with the bridle forming part of the piece.


I must be missing it. :shrug:

[Fernando K]

Miquelete

[Fernando K]

Hello

Sorry everyone, but I do not have a scanner, and I was fighting with photoshop because the attachments have a limit

affectionately. Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Hello

A bit redundant, but what abounds does not harm ....

Affectionately. Fernando K