F. de Luzon's Moro Kris Collection

[F. de Luzon]

Hello everyone! I am new to this forum and I am sharing pictures of the best of my Moro kris/kalis collection. Please feel free to make comments.

I started my collection only recently so I'm not an expert but I've learned a lot reading discussions on this forum.

I would greatly appreciate any information you can tell me about these swords. I also hope you will enjoy viewing my modest collection.

F. de Luzon

[David]

Well, i will just say that you seem to have gotten off to a magnificent start for a Moro kris collection. These all seem to be pretty good examples a few various styles. I especially like the second one down. :)

[F. de Luzon]

Thank you David! I spent many hours reading about the Moro kris on the internet and primarily in this forum. I learned from the "triumphs," mistakes, and most specially, the insights of members of this group. In light of your positive comment, I am proud to say that I was educated on the vikingsword.com Ethnographic Weapons Forum! :-)

I know that the examples in my collection are not perfect but these are the best that I could find. What follows is a description of each blade.

#1 The first one is a heavy laminated half wavy blade with a separate gangya, single brass stirrup, jungayan hilt and ivory kakatua pommel. The scabbard is made of wood with three bands of white brass. The blade shows signs of decorative/talismanic etching which has seriously deteriorated (almost completely erased) due to rust and pitting.

#2 The second is a straight blade (not etched) kris with a separate gangya, single stirrup, corded hilt with a silver end ring and kakatua pommel. The scabbard is made of wood with three bands of white brass decorated with okir.

#3 The third is a 13 luk laminated blade with separate gangya, two brass stirrups, a silver hilt and banati wood octagonal horse hoof pommel. On the scabbard: the wrangka is inlaid tortoise shell, the middle section wrapped with vine (nito vine?) and the buntut is also inlaid tortoise shell.

#4 The fourth is a 17 luk laminated kris with separate gangya and brass stirrups. The hilt is corded and the kakatua pommel is possibly made of rhinoceros horn (according to the ebay dealer and yet to be verified).

Happy New Year!


F. de Luzon

[F. de Luzon]

Here are bigger pictures.

[DaveS]

Excellent examples. A++. Unfortunately, even average moro pieces, in the not too distant future might be hard to find...........Dave.

[VANDOO]

4 NICE KRIS ALL KEEPERS IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE OFF TO A GOOD START. MY FAVORITES ARE #2 BECAUSE OF THE FINE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND #3. I LIKE THE INLAY WORK AND THE ANTING ANTING CLOTH ON THE SCABBARD. CLOSE UPS OF THE METAL WORK ON #2 AND THE INLAY AT THE TOP AND TIP OF THE SCABBARD ON #3 WOULD BE COOL. MOST LIKELY THE HORN USED ON THE POMMEL OF #4 IS WATER BUFFALO BUT YOU CAN NEVER TELL PERHAPS A GOOD WELL LIGHTED CLOSE- UP OF THAT MAY HELP FIND AN ANSWER. A NICE COLLECTION KEEP IT UP. :D

[F. de Luzon]

Thank you for your comments, DaveS and VANDOO!

[F. de Luzon]

4 NICE KRIS ALL KEEPERS IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE OFF TO A GOOD START. MY FAVORITES ARE #2 BECAUSE OF THE FINE WORKMANSHIP ON THE BLADE AND #3. I LIKE THE INLAY WORK AND THE ANTING ANTING CLOTH ON THE SCABBARD. CLOSE UPS OF THE METAL WORK ON #2 AND THE INLAY AT THE TOP AND TIP OF THE SCABBARD ON #3 WOULD BE COOL. MOST LIKELY THE HORN USED ON THE POMMEL OF #4 IS WATER BUFFALO BUT YOU CAN NEVER TELL PERHAPS A GOOD WELL LIGHTED CLOSE- UP OF THAT MAY HELP FIND AN ANSWER. A NICE COLLECTION KEEP IT UP. :D


VANDOO, here are the close-ups of the metal work on #2, inlay on the top and tip of the scabbard of #3 and the pommel of #4. Thanks!

[Sajen]

Hello F. de Luzon,

nice pieces! :) I like special the second blade, very nice piece. I think that the scabbards from the first and second piece are recent but nothing wrong by this. Like Barry (Vandoo) I doubt that the inlays at the scabbard by the third kris from tortoise shell, I think they are from thin carved buffalo horn. What do you mean with "nito vine"? I would call it rattan. :shrug: And I also doubt that the pommel from the last piece is from rhino horn, most probable again buffalo horn. Can you post close ups from this pommel?

Also to you a Happy New Year!

Best regards,
Detlef

[F. de Luzon]

Thank you Detlef! I bought the first three from the same antique dealer and I was told that the blades are pre-1930s but the scabbards are from the 1950s.

The scabbard with inlay (#3) is said to be distinct to the Tausug of Sulu. I was told that it is made of tortoise shell but I can see that carabao horn is also a probability. A portion of the center of the back of the wrangka was chipped and lifted when I bought it, so I repaired it using a knife and sandpaper. I noticed that the material is layered and fibrous. Although I am not an expert, the shavings/chips did not feel like horn which makes tortoise shell a probability. I will post detailed close-ups and I hope you can help me identify the material. I might eventually approach an expert to examine and determine the material scientifically.

Nito is a vine found in the hinterlands of Mindanao, Philippines which is used for handicrafts. I brought the scabbard to a nito handicrafts manufacturer but upon comparing, it turned out to be a finer material than the kind of nito they are using. The manufacturer could not identify it and said that it could be a variety endemic to the island of Sulu.

Regarding the pommel of #4, again carabao horn is a probability. I will post close-ups from various angles and again, I hope you can help me identify the material.

All the best,

F. de Luzon

[F. de Luzon]

Close up of details of #1

Jungayan hilt
Ivory pommel
faded etching

[F. de Luzon]

Close up of details of #2:

Metal Work, hilt and pommel.
Pommel details. Is it wood?

[F. de Luzon]

Close up of details of #3:

Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back

Buntut, inlaid front and plain back

[F. de Luzon]

Close up of details of #4:

Pommel from various angles. What kind of horn is it?

[kai]

Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too.

Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.)

I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?).

Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)?
I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time... ;)

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Agree with Kai, nice presentation! :)

Both, the inlays and also the pommel are definitive from water buffalo horn IMVHO.

Regards,
Detlef

[VANDOO]

KRIS #4 POMMEL IS DEFINITELY NOT RHINO HORN WHICH IS GOOD AS CUSTOMS WILL NOT BOTHER YOU. :) THE LAYERS YOU SEE IS WHAT IS FOUND IN CARABO AKA WATER BUFFALO HORN. THIS LOOKS LIKE AN OLDER PIECE DUE TO THE WEAR AND CRACKS. THERE IS A GOOD POST IN THE FORUM WITH PICTURES THAT CAN HELP YOU LEARN TO SPOT RHINO HORN. BUT ALL RHINO AND OTHER MATERIALS CAN VARY IT IS SOMETIMES DIFFICULT EVEN THEN. I REALLY CAN'T TELL ON THE INLAYED PIECES ON THE SCABBARD SOME SEA TURTLE SHELL CAN LOOK LIKE THAT IF IT IS OLD THICK AND UNPOLISHED BUT SO CAN A THIN SLICE OF HORN. THE INLAY IS INTERESTING USING MOTHER OF PEARL, HORN AND SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE. LIKELY THE SCABBARD WAS DONE AROUND WW2. SOME OF THE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE PHILIPPINE COLLECTORS WILL LIKELY BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU MORE INFORMATION.

[kai]

Thanks for posting the additional pics! (I was slow with my reply... ;) )

Close up of details of #3:
Wrangka, inlaid front and plain back
Buntut, inlaid front and plain back
The plain backsides do look carabao to me. The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

SOME RED AND BLUE SUBSTANCE.
Hard plastic? Or more like glass?

[Sajen]

The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Hi Kai,

would be the first time that I see tortoise on such a scabbard, do you have an example you can show?

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

The plain backsides do look carabao to me. The front sides don't come out very well but are mottled and seem to have a different surface structure: could be tortoise, indeed.

Most if not all of the mottled look to the carabao horn on the front of the scabbard is delamination (separation of the layers in the horn) that was most likely caused by the heat created when the holes were first drilled into it. If enough heat is generated from the use of dull drilling tools this damage can be seen when first done or not until years later when drying and shrinkage from age can affect the horn and put extra stress on the material at these points. Impact from other objects can cause this as well. JMHO.

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

Congratulations on your new collection!

Kris 1:
Looks to me to be a crossover Maguindanao/Sulu blade with a recent clamp. I also think the hilt is much later, made of gold plated brass filigree. But the ivory pommel looks to me to be a later carving style and the patina might be artificially done to make it look older (an old Filipino/Moro trick for quicker sales). Blade might be turn of 20th century. This type of hilt is for datus and other nobility.

The scabbard is new and Sulu.

Kris 2:
This is truly nice - a great and fantastic Maranao blade! The pommel is nice burled and patina narra wood. I find this the best of the 3. Maybe for a high ranking warrior but not a datu?

The scabbard is recent, but truly Maranao in okir and wranga (top of scabbard) style.

Kris 3:
This kris seems to have an early 20th century crossover Sulu blade. The pommel may be the same time period, though I often see these on 1950s pieces. Not sure if the hilt rings are silver or silver plate over copper (they are newer and I have seen plated copper before).

The scabbard is recent Sulu with aluminum accents through out the scabbard (plates and pins), and sections of mother-of-pearl, and colored bone inside plates of carabao horn. The wrappings are rattan.

Kris 4:
This kris appears to be from the end of the 19th to the turn of the 20th century. The blade is Maranao but the clamps seem Sulu-ish to me. The pommel style is danganan and is somewhat rare, being made of solid horn. For a high ranking warrior or a low ranking datu? Good to have the hemp wrap complete with only some of the lacquer worn off. Too bad the pommel "tail" is broken off.

All of these kris could use some acid etching to bring out the different laminations in the blades, which they did.

I hope these answer some of your questions. You are off to a good start! :)

[F. de Luzon]

Very nice presentation, F! Please also add putatively "lesser" pieces as often enough much can be learned from those, too.

Those 4 examples all look like good, antique blades to me - congrats! Did you source all from within the PI? (All 3 scabbards appear to be post-WW2, with the first 2 of quite recent manufacture as suggested by the other forumites already.)

I'm with Detlef that the hilt #4 is from water buffalo as well as probably the scabbard #3 (the metal on the latter is aluminium, I assume?).

Could you please post close-ups of the base of the blade (and pommel, too)?
I'd suggest discussing each of these pieces in dedicated threads for in-depth analysis - otherwise it will get confusing in no time... ;)

Regards,
Kai


Thanks Kai! Yes, I found the first three in Manila but it wasn't easy. Here's the additional closeups you requested. :-)

[F. de Luzon]

Hi Kai,

would be the first time that I see tortoise on such a scabbard, do you have an example you can show?

Best regards,
Detlef


Hi Detlef,

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

[F. de Luzon]

Thanks Kai, Detlef, Vandoo, Robert and Battara for your insights! I'm developing an even greater appreciation of these swords because of your comments. Much appreciated!

[F. de Luzon]

Congratulations on your new collection!

Kris 1:
Looks to me to be a crossover Maguindanao/Sulu blade with a recent clamp. I also think the hilt is much later, made of gold plated brass filigree. But the ivory pommel looks to me to be a later carving style and the patina might be artificially done to make it look older (an old Filipino/Moro trick for quicker sales). Blade might be turn of 20th century. This type of hilt is for datus and other nobility.

The scabbard is new and Sulu.

Kris 2:
This is truly nice - a great and fantastic Maranao blade! The pommel is nice burled and patina narra wood. I find this the best of the 3. Maybe for a high ranking warrior but not a datu?

The scabbard is recent, but truly Maranao in okir and wranga (top of scabbard) style.

Kris 3:
This kris seems to have an early 20th century crossover Sulu blade. The pommel may be the same time period, though I often see these on 1950s pieces. Not sure if the hilt rings are silver or silver plate over copper (they are newer and I have seen plated copper before).

The scabbard is recent Sulu with aluminum accents through out the scabbard (plates and pins), and sections of mother-of-pearl, and colored bone inside plates of carabao horn. The wrappings are rattan.

Kris 4:
This kris appears to be from the end of the 19th to the turn of the 20th century. The blade is Maranao but the clamps seem Sulu-ish to me. The pommel style is danganan and is somewhat rare, being made of solid horn. For a high ranking warrior or a low ranking datu? Good to have the hemp wrap complete with only some of the lacquer worn off. Too bad the pommel "tail" is broken off.

All of these kris could use some acid etching to bring out the different laminations in the blades, which they did.

I hope these answer some of your questions. You are off to a good start! :)


Thanks for the thorough discussion and the encouragement, Battara!

[Croccifixio]

I think we go to the same places as I live in Manila and frequent the antique shops there as well as a few in Quezon City. Very nice examples too. I echo Battara. I have very very similar kris (one of yours is likely the sister of mine). Please do try to etch them if you're willing. The beauty in their blades really pop out when etched!

[F. de Luzon]

I finally finished cleaning and etching the latest addition to my collection. I will start a new thread about it and add more pictures, to make things less complicated. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22242

[F. de Luzon]

I think we go to the same places as I live in Manila and frequent the antique shops there as well as a few in Quezon City. Very nice examples too. I echo Battara. I have very very similar kris (one of yours is likely the sister of mine). Please do try to etch them if you're willing. The beauty in their blades really pop out when etched!

Hi Croccifixio! Yes, we might bump into each other in Manila or QC one day. There are so few places to find krises in MM and I agree that we likely go to the same shops.

I've started etching. I saw your thread and I'm following your lead. Yours turned out nicely!

It's always nice to meet a fellow enthusiast, albeit online.

Warm regards,

F. de Luzon

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Hi F. de Luzon,

yes agree, the plate on the small picture seems to be indeed from turtle shell. The other picture isn't clear enough to build me an opinion.

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Hello F. de Luzon, Though the smaller photo in post #24 shows what looks like decorative hawksbill turtle shell plates on the scabbard without being able to see these in person it would be almost impossible to tell if they are real, or faux turtle shell made from bull or buffalo horn or even plastic. All of these materials should be readily available in the Philippines. I would be leary about spending the money usually associated with items made from genuine turtle shell without having it checked by an expert first. I believe that hawksbill are a protected species so if you purchase anything made from their shell (if it is even legal to own there) it would most likely be illegal to export.

Best,
Robert

[F. de Luzon]

Hello F. de Luzon, Though the smaller photo in post #24 shows what looks like decorative hawksbill turtle shell plates on the scabbard without being able to see these in person it would be almost impossible to tell if they are real, or faux turtle shell made from bull or buffalo horn or even plastic. All of these materials should be readily available in the Philippines. I would be leary about spending the money usually associated with items made from genuine turtle shell without having it checked by an expert first. I believe that hawksbill are a protected species so if you purchase anything made from their shell (if it is even legal to own there) it would most likely be illegal to export.

Best,
Robert


That is very sound advice Robert. I inquired about the legality of the use of turtle shells from the shop owner and was told that the ones on sale were made in the 1940s-1950s, when it was still legal in the Philippines. Today, it is illegal to use them but the antiques can still be sold.

Now, in light of your comment, I just realized that it may be impossible to distinguish old from new (at least based on pictures). It would thus be most prudent to avoid them to discourage the sale of products made of turtle parts, as well as to avoid the risk of violating the law.

I'm relieved that the inlaid crosspiece on the scabbard that I purchased turned out to be made of horn. Thanks again for your advice. I am taking it very seriously.

F. de Luzon

[Spunjer]

welcome, F.!
you have a beautiful collection! i can't add anything else as to what everyone said. all i can say is, happy hunting!
my very first piece came from Davao. i acquired it when i was there. i did stop at some of the antique stores in MM. favorite was Mang Ven's in Ermita. did find some at one of the bigger malls (can't remember the name).
it's all nice to see a new collector!

[Sajen]

It would thus be most prudent to avoid them to discourage the sale of products made of turtle parts, as well as to avoid the risk violating the law.

I know that sea turtles get hunted still in Indonesia, of course it's forbidden by law but there is no control. I've seen not long ago on Bali sate from sea turtle on a market and on Halmahera I've seen a lot of sea turtle carapaces, when I told the people that it is forbidden to hunt them they were very surprised. :(

[F. de Luzon]

welcome, F.!
you have a beautiful collection! i can't add anything else as to what everyone said. all i can say is, happy hunting!
my very first piece came from Davao. i acquired it when i was there. i did stop at some of the antique stores in MM. favorite was Mang Ven's in Ermita. did find some at one of the bigger malls (can't remember the name).
it's all nice to see a new collector!

Thanks for the warm welcome and for appreciating my modest collection, Spunjer! Davao and Metro Manila have been my hunting grounds as well. Mang Ven's is also my favorite place. He's a nice guy, very accommodating with lots of interesting stories to tell. I saw your post on the very impressive Maranao blade. I hope to get as lucky as you one day. :)

F. de Luzon

[F. de Luzon]

I etched #4 and had a new scabbard made. The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy. While based on traditional Moro design, the scabbard is in the style of the makers (well known blacksmiths from the Province of Pangasinan) and thus modern.

Here are some pictures showing the condition of the kris at the time of purchase, after initial restoration and finally, after etching. I think it turned out nicely.

[Battara]

The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy.
I agree. I have worked with kamagong before as well as narra and paduk (a cousin to narra) and these are not only dense, but they dull steel edges and tools (they have dulled mine for example). I usually see kamagong reserved for Moro hilts.

[apolaki]

I agree. I have worked with kamagong before as well as narra and paduk (a cousin to narra) and these are not only dense, but they dull steel edges and tools (they have dulled mine for example). I usually see kamagong reserved for Moro hilts.

Are you familiar with Ipil wood and Molave wood and do know if they are used as well in weaponry or in other contexts?

[F. de Luzon]

Are you familiar with Ipil wood and Molave wood and do know if they are used as well in weaponry or in other contexts?

Herbert W. Krieger mentions both types of wood as used in making native weapons in "The Collection of Primitive Weapons and Armor of the Philippine Islands in the United States National Museum" (Washington: 1926, 13). He also mentions molave as material used for war clubs (pp. 46-47)

[kai]

I etched #4 and had a new scabbard made. The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy. While based on traditional Moro design, the scabbard is in the style of the makers (well known blacksmiths from the Province of Pangasinan) and thus modern.
Nice wood for sure!

IMVHO it may pay to "educate" them on traditional designs for such custom projects. Even if one prefers to keep the additional carving on the crosspiece, it would look much nicer if the base of the crosspiece was flush with the stem (at least in my book - sorry, I'm a stiffler for tradition, I guess ;) ).


Here are some pictures showing the condition of the kris at the time of purchase, after initial restoration and finally, after etching. I think it turned out nicely.
Wow, I'm glad that you rescued this kris - the blade did came out very nice!

Could you add some close-ups of the blade for getting a better glimpse on the laminations, please?

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Nice wood for sure!

IMVHO it may pay to "educate" them on traditional designs for such custom projects. Even if one prefers to keep the additional carving on the crosspiece, it would look much nicer if the base of the crosspiece was flush with the stem (at least in my book - sorry, I'm a stiffler for tradition, I guess ;) ).



Wow, I'm glad that you rescued this kris - the blade did came out very nice!

Could you add some close-ups of the blade for getting a better glimpse on the laminations, please?

Regards,
Kai

Hi F. de Luzon,

second all comments from Kai. The wood is nice for sure, the carving well done but it would look much nicer to my eyes when it would have been done in traditional manner.

Best regards,
Detlef

[F. de Luzon]

Hello Kai and Detlef. I completely understand your preference for traditional design. I had this made in the style of the makers because the material used was non-traditional. I just wanted a scabbard made of kamagong (I really like this wood :)) If ever I have another scabbard made, it will be as traditional as it can get. :)

Kai, attached is the photo you requested. Thank you both for your comments!

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[F. de Luzon]

I re-etched #5 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22242) and a pattern emerged on the core. Did I over etch? It looks almost like glitter. I wonder if this was intended by its maker.

[Ian]

de Luzon:

That's a very good etch that you achieved, and a very unusual pattern that emerged. It's hard to know if the creator of the blade intended it to have such an effect, but some of these guys were really talented at producing specific effects and it's quite possible that this was the intended outcome. Perhaps Roland or one of our other metallurgists can speak to the way this effect was created.

Ian.

[Sajen]

What you see is the microcrystalline structure of the metal. It get visible by the etchant you used. By an other etchant it wouldn't be visible like this.

Best regards,
Detlef

[F. de Luzon]

What you see is the microcrystalline structure of the metal. It get visible by the etchant you used. By an other etchant it wouldn't be visible like this.

Best regards,
Detlef


Thanks for your comments, Ian and Detlef!

Detlef, I used white cane vinegar (sukang puti) to etch the blade. I was just trying to make the contrast stronger between the metals when the pattern emerged. I felt like I was looking at stars when I wiped off the oxidized metal because of the way it sparkled. But I was also concerned that I may have ruined the blade. Anyway, it looks so much better in person.

F. de Luzon

[kai]

I agree that the etch seems perfectly ok - you often see these crystalline structures once the polish is done nicely and the etching accentuates the details of the clean metal surface.

I prefer to use industrial acetic acid because its strength is exactly known and can be diluted for routine use (more reproducible). The advantage of AA being volatile is that it can be completely removed via heating the blade and that it tends to also work on rust in crevices (it helps long-term preservation to remove all active rust). This can lead to some porosity of the blade and you start to see this with the narrow pamor band on each side. IMHO this is not a problem but I'd avoid to etch more (repolishing and re-etching are always an option if the surface gets too rough from over-etching). After a thorough oiling, you can go for sealing with microcristalline wax (which can also be used to close the larger pores if deemed preferable).

Regards,
Kai

[F. de Luzon]

I agree that the etch seems perfectly ok - you often see these crystalline structures once the polish is done nicely and the etching accentuates the details of the clean metal surface.

I prefer to use industrial acetic acid because its strength is exactly known and can be diluted for routine use (more reproducible). The advantage of AA being volatile is that it can be completely removed via heating the blade and that it tends to also work on rust in crevices (it helps long-term preservation to remove all active rust). This can lead to some porosity of the blade and you start to see this with the narrow pamor band on each side. IMHO this is not a problem but I'd avoid to etch more (repolishing and re-etching are always an option if the surface gets too rough from over-etching). After a thorough oiling, you can go for sealing with microcristalline wax (which can also be used to close the larger pores if deemed preferable).

Regards,
Kai


Thanks for the tips, Kai. I will keep them in mind next time I etch a blade. Much appreciated!

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[Sajen]

But I was also concerned that I may have ruined the blade. Anyway, it looks so much better in person.

Hi F. d. Luzon,

don't worry, the outcome is very nice, the blade isn't ruined but look much better as before. It's a nice piece and you have given it the best care! :) ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[F. de Luzon]

Hi F. d. Luzon,

don't worry, the outcome is very nice, the blade isn't ruined but look much better as before. It's a nice piece and you have given it the best care! :) ;)

Regards,
Detlef


Thanks Detlef!

Regards from Manila,

F. de Luzon

[BANDOOK]

Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion
regards Rajesh

[BANDOOK]

Overall length -68 cms

[Battara]

I'm not sure I agree with the information regarding this example.

MOP was not common until the 20th century. Also this form is a 20th century form, not a 19th century form. And then, this type of kris is made in the Sulu region and not Mindanao.

[BANDOOK]

Thanks Battara
Its good to know that,i don't collect these weapons so good for my knowledge
Regards Rajesh

[Ian]

Agree with Jose's dating for the same reasons he gives. The kris shown by VANDOO is a mid- to late-20th C. example in Sulu dress. These are readily found in antique shops in Manila or online. Although well made and from the original culture, I suspect they are produced mainly for sale to foreigners who travel. :)

Ian.

I'm not sure I agree with the information regarding this example.

MOP was not common until the 20th century. Also this form is a 20th century form, not a 19th century form. And then, this type of kris is made in the Sulu region and not Mindanao.

[Battara]

Ian is right. I will only add that some of these recent Sulu examples may be even laminated on occasion. I know this because I bought one years ago and it was laminated. Admittedly, that was probably made in the 1960s. Pieces coming out of the region today are more often mono-steel.

[Rick]

I had a small, child size kris of this vintage; two stirrups, silver but undecorated w/out any engraving on the blade. Same hilt, same knot work wrap.
I posted it here but can't find the old post with the search function.

It was a very sharp blade and competently formed; I believe I sold it to Lew some years ago before he passed on.

I miss Lew. :(

[F. de Luzon]

Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion
regards Rajesh


Thanks for sharing, Rajesh!

[F. de Luzon]

I had a small, child size kris of this vintage; two stirrups, silver but undecorated w/out any engraving on the blade. Same hilt, same knot work wrap.
I posted it here but can't find the old post with the search function.

It was a very sharp blade and competently formed; I believe I sold it to Lew some years ago before he passed on.

I miss Lew. :(

Thanks for your comment Rick.

I have a kris that is smaller than the others in my collection and I've always wondered if it was a child's kris. The blade is only 17.5 inches long (44.5 cm) and the width is proportionate to the length. Below is a photo for your reference.

Please share your thoughts.

[Ian]

F. de Luzon:

Another nice kris. Not all small kris are necessarily children's kris. We should not forgot that some Moro women fought beside their husbands, brothers and fathers. I'm inclined to think some of these slightly shorter and slimmer versions may have been meant for women. Also, many of the older kris (pre-1800) were shorter and slimmer than those of 19th C Mindanao. I'm not suggesting that your smaller example is earlier than the 19th C, but we should not think that all short, slim kris were designed for children--they were definitely weapons and could be used as such by adults.

Attached below is an example of an 18th C. kris that is similar in length to your shorter example.

Ian.

----------------Attachment--18th C Moro kris------------------

.

[Roland_M]

I re-etched #5 (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22242) and a pattern emerged on the core. Did I over etch? It looks almost like glitter. I wonder if this was intended by its maker.

What you can see there is as Detlef said the so called grain boundary: "A grain boundary is the interface between two grains, or crystallites, in a polycrystalline material. Grain boundaries are 2D defects in the crystal structure, and tend to decrease the electrical and thermal conductivity of the material."

The bigger the grains are, the lower the quality is. Every iron has this grain pattern but the graining of modern steel ist too small for human eyes.

Such big crystals as in the middle of your sword are simply a sign of low quality steel.

You should try another etchant to avoid this crystals.


Roland

[F. de Luzon]

What you can see there is as Detlef said the so called grain boundary: "A grain boundary is the interface between two grains, or crystallites, in a polycrystalline material. Grain boundaries are 2D defects in the crystal structure, and tend to decrease the electrical and thermal conductivity of the material."

The bigger the grains are, the lower the quality is. Every iron has this grain pattern but the graining of modern steel ist too small for human eyes.

Such big crystals as in the middle of your sword are simply a sign of low quality steel.

You should try another etchant to avoid this crystals.


Roland



Thanks for the info Roland_M!

[F. de Luzon]

F. de Luzon:

Another nice kris. Not all small kris are necessarily children's kris. We should not forgot that some Moro women fought beside their husbands, brothers and fathers. I'm inclined to think some of these slightly shorter and slimmer versions may have been meant for women. Also, many of the older kris (pre-1800) were shorter and slimmer than those of 19th C Mindanao. I'm not suggesting that your smaller example is earlier than the 19th C, but we should not think that all short, slim kris were designed for children--they were definitely weapons and could be used as such by adults.

Attached below is an example of an 18th C. kris that is similar in length to your shorter example.

Ian.

----------------Attachment--18th C Moro kris------------------

.

Thanks Ian! I agree. Despite its size, this blade is equally deadly. Aside from being for women or children, another probability is that it was designed to be concealed. Moros are known to have made blades for such purpose.

Thanks also for the reference photo!

Regards,

F. de Luzon

[F. de Luzon]

With a blade length of 17.5 inches (44.5 cm) and the proportionate width, this kris is smaller than the others in my collection. The laminated blade has a separate gangya and is much older than the hilt. The pommel is some kind of hardened resin with a coin (American Era Philippines) dated 1944. It comes with a Maguindanao style scabbard.

Because the hilt is of low quality workmanship, I am contemplating on having it replaced. I also want a nice pommel to go with it. However, a part of me is saying to leave it as it is.

[Aslan Paladin]

IMHO it looks fine the way it is. Changing the hilt is not needed as this would tamper with the sword's history and could even probably negatively affect the sword's balance if not done properly. Besides it looks like a kris meant for battle, with a hilt exactly meant for business so there is no need to dress it up with a different hilt.

[Sajen]

IMHO it looks fine the way it is. Changing the hilt is not needed as this would tamper with the sword's history and could even probably negatively affect the sword's balance if not done properly. Besides it looks like a kris meant for battle, with a hilt exactly meant for business so there is no need to dress it up with a different hilt.

Exactly my thoughts! :) :cool:

[Battara]

I have to agree - leaving it alone might be best.

[Rick]

I agree with the above sentiments.
That sword is a splendid example just as it is!

[Ian]

Agree with all opinions so far. This is a fine old warrior with an authentic hilt.

[Robert]

Please leave the hilt on this piece as is. If it were extremely damaged or was something non traditional put on it by a U.S. serviceman or tourist after bringing it home I would agree that changing it to a more traditional hilt would be something to consider, but that is not the case with this. I totally agree that by replacing the hilt you would be taking away an important part of this swords history.

Best,
Robert

[F. de Luzon]

Thank you all for your advice. I will leave the hilt as it is. I agree that this would be the wiser decision.

Kind regards to you all,

F. de Luzon

[David]

Well, i guess you don't need one more fellow collector to say please don't change anything on this kris. I frankly don't understand collecting these items from history if the end goal it not to preserve that history, but to create some idealized alternative version of what the original piece we collected actually is. I am glad you have decide to listen to the part of you that just says "No". :)

[Battara]

I agree David. If it were missing pieces, that would be a different story.......

[F. de Luzon]

Number 7 in the collection is this twist core "18th Century" Moro kalis/kris with a 5 luk, 47.5 cm (18.75 inches) long blade. The total length of the blade and hilt is 59 cm (23.25 inches) and the wooden pommel is of the horse hoof motif. For more pictures and discussion please click on the link- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22716

[kai]

Hello Fernando,

I already commented on your newest acquisition in the dedicated thread.

Here a late comment on the earlier small one:
With a blade length of 17.5 inches (44.5 cm) and the proportionate width, this kris is smaller than the others in my collection. The laminated blade has a separate gangya and is much older than the hilt. The pommel is some kind of hardened resin with a coin (American Era Philippines) dated 1944. It comes with a Maguindanao style scabbard.
I believe the blade dates from the first quarter of the 20th century (give or take a few years); craftsmanship of the panday is not really great and makes it difficult to place. The clamp attachment seems typical for the upper Cota Bato region and I guess the whole hilt got replaced during WW2 or, probably, sometime later; the braiding is done correctly and the piece seems to have been in continued use. I agree with the others to keep it as is.

Regards,
Kai

[F. de Luzon]

Hello Fernando,

I already commented on your newest acquisition in the dedicated thread.

Here a late comment on the earlier small one:

I believe the blade dates from the first quarter of the 20th century (give or take a few years); craftsmanship of the panday is not really great and makes it difficult to place. The clamp attachment seems typical for the upper Cota Bato region and I guess the whole hilt got replaced during WW2 or, probably, sometime later; the braiding is done correctly and the piece seems to have been in continued use. I agree with the others to keep it as is.

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for your insights Kai! Much appreciated. I have decided to keep it as is. :)

[Pinoy Blade Hunter]

great collection you have there. i am curious on how you go about ethcing the whole length of the kris blade? i am planning on etching mine as well.

thank you.

[F. de Luzon]

great collection you have there. i am curious on how you go about ethcing the whole length of the kris blade? i am planning on etching mine as well.

thank you.


Thanks Pinoy Blade Hunter!

I have a plastic drafting/drawing tube that I fill with sukang puti. It is long enough to immerse the blade up to the area near the gangya. I then brush vinegar on the exposed gangya from time to time. After a few minutes or hours (depending on the condition of the blade) I remove the blade from the tube and even out the etch by brushing more vinegar on the etch line and gangya. I then immerse it again if necessary, until I get the desired effect.

It's important that you neutralize the blade by washing it with a baking soda slurry after etching. After washing off the slurry, I use WD 40 to protect the blade. Btw, I cover the hilt with cling wrap for protection.

Kind regards,

Fernando/ F. de Luzon

[Pinoy Blade Hunter]

Thanks Pinoy Blade Hunter!

I have a plastic drafting/drawing tube that I fill with sukang puti. It is long enough to immerse the blade up to the area near the gangya. I then brush vinegar on the exposed gangya from time to time. After a few minutes or hours (depending on the condition of the blade) I remove the blade from the tube and even out the etch by brushing more vinegar on the etch line and gangya. I then immerse it again if necessary, until I get the desired effect.

It's important that you neutralize the blade by washing it with a baking soda slurry after etching. After washing off the slurry, I use WD 40 to protect the blade. Btw, I cover the hilt with cling wrap for protection.

Kind regards,

Fernando/ F. de Luzon

Thank you very much! Just the information i need. I was wondering about the tube if i will have to make a PVC tube thing, but the tracing paper tube is much more practical and easy.

Do you have a place where you display your sword for public viewing? I would love to gaze upon that twist core piece up close. From malate manila here and i have been frequenting the antique shops in ermita lately. Drooling. Hahaha

Thanks again.
PBH

[Victrix]

This book may be of interest to the historically inclined amongst you.

[F. de Luzon]

Do you have a place where you display your sword for public viewing?

Hi PBH,

I'll get in touch with you soon. A bit busy now. Thanks!

Fernando

[F. de Luzon]

This book may be of interest to the historically inclined amongst you.

Thanks Vitrix! Antonio de Morga's "Sucesos..." is one of the popular primary sources on the early Spanish era here in the Philippines. The annotated version by the Philippine national hero, Jose Rizal is even a school reading for some students. Is that your personal copy?

Kind regards,

Fernando

[Victrix]

Thanks Vitrix! Antonio de Morga's "Sucesos..." is one of the popular primary sources on the early Spanish era here in the Philippines. The annotated version by the Philippine national hero, Jose Rizal is even a school reading for some students. Is that your personal copy?

Kind regards,

Fernando

Si Senjor!

I found a copy in a bookstore by chance and selected it for my early summer reading, which I'm looking forward to. It's translated into English and edited by a J. S. Cummins and was published for the Hakluyt Society (1971). I'm glad to hear it's included as a school reading for students in Philippines.

All the best.