Show us your Talismanic markings on keris blades

[Green]

I'm quite fascinated by markings that one can sometime find on some keris blades- Particularly on antique blades. These days keris makers make all sorts of marks on blades by copying old marks simply for decorative purposes without any proper ceremonies or mantras attended to the making of these talismanic markings (ketandaan) as done in the old days.


Would love if dear members can show us some examples of your blade talismanic markings and if possible tell us their probable meaning or purpose.

Here is an example from me. A simple but old keris anak alang most probably from Kelantan Malaysia or Patani(?).

There are 2 markings on one side of the blade. A gat ? (Guard) which runs across the blade at the base , and a furrow termed as 'anak sungai' (stream/rivulet) running along the middle of the blade with a break in the centre of the blade which then continues towards the top part.

I don't know the meaning of this markings but has been told that the purpose is to prevent the enemy from finding you . But on the other hand this blade is not good for business purposes (because the customers won't find you!).

don't know what the rivulet is suppose to mean.

[Jean]

Hello Green,
From the pics I am wondering whether these markings are purposely made or just welding flaws?
Regards

[Jean]

Hello Green,
I attach pics of a Javanese blade with engravings partly inlaid with gold, the top motif is called pilulut.
Regards

[David]

From the pics I am wondering whether these markings are purposely made or just welding flaws?
That was my impression as well. The groove down that center (what you call "anak sungai") may well be intentional, but that other gash in the blade surface looks more like a forging flaw to me. :shrug:

[Green]

from what i understood and been told the mark was intentional... looks a bit awkward it is true...

Jean;

Do you know what is the meaning and purpose of those golden marks on your keris?

[David]

from what i understood and been told the mark was intentional... looks a bit awkward it is true...
Well, people do tend to tell us a lot of things in regards to keris that are not necessary true...though in the end belief seems to trump truth a lot of the time in these situations. :)

[Green]

David;

Belief attending to meaning of marks and other belief regarding the history and background of the keris is one thing and can be exteremely subjective.

but the marks on keris is a hard objective fact. If we can see it on the keris , it is certainly purposely made - for whatever reason. Marks are usually obvious (not always) and can not be mistaken from incidental defects to the blade.

[Green]

Here is another example of talismanic marking on my old pandai saras blade, which is not obvious at a cursory glance.

But if you put the blade at a certain angle in good light, you can see cross hatches on one side and parallel small hatches on the other side.

These are obviously made for whatever purposes that I am not sure of.

[David]

Here is another example of talismanic marking on my old pandai saras blade, which is not obvious at a cursory glance.

But if you put the blade at a certain angle in good light, you can see cross hatches on one side and parallel small hatches on the other side.

These are obviously made for whatever purposes that I am not sure of.
I'm sorry Green, but that just looks like tool markings to me. I'm not convinced at all that these markings have a talismanic intention. :shrug:

[Green]

i did think the same when i first saw it, but a couple of people who know about patani keris that I showed this to, told me it's a mark done purposely.

they could be wrong...or right...

[A. G. Maisey]

They're made because somebody forgot to use alloy jaw covers on his vice. Even folded newspaper would have done.

Talismanic value is to remind one to take care playing with things they do not understand very well.

[Sajen]

They're made because somebody forgot to use alloy jaw covers on his vice. Even folded newspaper would have done.

Hello Green,

agree complete with Alan, this marks a more as typical for a vice.

Regards,
Detlef

[Green]

Ah... yes, Alan's explanation makes perfect sense for this blade! Many thanks. I'm learning new things everyday!


what about the first blade I showed...would that considered some form of artifact and not a purposely made marking?

[Jean]

Jean;

Do you know what is the meaning and purpose of those golden marks on your keris?

Hello Green,
The golden marks were recently made or refurbished I think but the engravings look original.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

I would need to examine the first blade under magnification to know what I was looking at.

[Green]

Mr Maisey.

i will try to get better pics when I get back home in a few days time...

[Jean]

Hello Green,

agree complete with Alan, this marks a more as typical for a vice.

Regards,
Detlef

If these diamond-shaped marks were imprinted by vice jaws they should be of equal size (unless the vice is very rustic) which does not seem to be the case from the pics: the marks look of larger size up the blade but this may be a perspective effect?
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Green, pics will not be of any use to me, I need the thing in my hand, and a 3X loupe in my eye.


Jean, to you these marks may be something to be investigated, analysed, given careful thought, and then a decision made. To me they are as clear as reading a sentence that I have already read many, many times. I've even been guilty of writing that sentence once, when I was about 13 or 14 years old. These marks were made by the blade being clamped into a holding device. That device is usually a bench vice, but some hand tools do leave a similar imprint.

[Gustav]

Yes, we see them quite often on Malayan Keris.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3394&highlight=vice+marks

The magic of modernisation.

[Green]

Gustav,

Many thanks for the link! getting to understand it a bit better ( i think)...

[Jean]

Yes, we see them quite often on Malayan Keris.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3394&highlight=vice+marks

The magic of modernisation.

Thank you Gustav, it was an interesting discussion!

[Jean]

I own this old Batak chopping knife, the strong blade has one cutting edge and a convex section, and it shows irregular crisscross lines on a significant part of the surface. By close examination it seems that the entire surface was initially crisscrossed but it was polished towards the edge probably for maintaining the sharp cutting edge.
These lines were clearly incised for any reason and not imprinted by a vice or other clamping tool.
Regards

[drdavid]

Jean, what are the dimensions on this piece. I have previously owned a couple of knives that had been made from old files. They still had a little cross hatching visible over a fair amount of the blade
Drd

[Rick]

It looks like it's made from an old wood rasp to me. :shrug:

One flat side; one convex side.
Seems like the cross section of a rasp flattened out.

[David]

I'm afraid i am in agreement with both Rick and DrDavid. It appears that you blade was made from a file. I've seen many in my day and the result looks very much like this. Even if this were not the case though, i wouldn't image that a pattern of lines like this would have any talismanic purpose. We often find markings on blades both decorative or practical that do not have any talismanic intent. :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

I can see the confusion from who ever noted that the Tajong blade pattern is a talisman in nature. The markings on the tajong blade are to my eye are also that of a vice. The small knife shown later is certainly made from a file as indicated.

Such patterning on the Tajong is known in the Patani/North Malay regions but it does not start and end there. Below is an example from my personal collections that gives a partial indication of how it should look...I say partial as there is much more to these marks than what meets the eye in the image.

Gavin

[Jean]

Jean, what are the dimensions on this piece. I have previously owned a couple of knives that had been made from old files. They still had a little cross hatching visible over a fair amount of the blade
Drd

Hi Drdavid,
The blade is 17.2 cm long by 4.3 cm wide and 4.5 mm maximum thickness (6.8 x 1.7 x 0.18 inch). This appears too wide for a rasp or file (the piece would have been originally wider) and furthermore the crisscross lines near the tang are not parallel to those near the tip (more slanted) which would not be the case if the piece had been made from a rasp or file. There are also traces of crisscross lines on the flat (non-cutting) edge of the blade.
Regards

[Jean]

I'm afraid i am in agreement with both Rick and DrDavid. It appears that you blade was made from a file. I've seen many in my day and the result looks very much like this. Even if this were not the case though, i wouldn't image that a pattern of lines like this would have any talismanic purpose. We often find markings on blades both decorative or practical that do not have any talismanic intent. :shrug:

Hi David,
Although I do not believe that this blade is a recycled file or rasp for the reasons explained above, I agree that these rustic markings are more probably decorative or practical than talismanic.
Regards

[Jean]

I can see the confusion from who ever noted that the Tajong blade pattern is a talisman in nature. The markings on the tajong blade are to my eye are also that of a vice. The small knife shown later is certainly made from a file as indicated.

Such patterning on the Tajong is known in the Patani/North Malay regions but it does not start and end there. Below is an example from my personal collections that gives a partial indication of how it should look...I say partial as there is much more to these marks than what meets the eye in the image.

Gavin

Hello Gavin,
Some of the marks on you blade are clearly located in a cavity, so how could they have been imprinted by a vice? :confused:
You are correct that it is difficult to assess and interpret these marks from a picture.
Regards

[Sajen]

Hi David,
Although I do not believe that this blade is a recycled file or rasp for the reasons explained above, I agree that these rustic markings are more probably decorative or practical than talismanic.
Regards

Hello Jean,

disagree with you, sorry. I also own some old blades made from files or rasps, it's a typical sign for this. Files/rasps has been high regarded as material for good blades. Good iron material was not found at every corner in old times! :D ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello Gavin,
Some of the marks on you blade are clearly located in a cavity, so how could they have been imprinted by a vice? :confused:
You are correct that it is difficult to assess and interpret these marks from a picture.
Regards

Jean,

That is the point I make, those on my blade are part of a talismanic pamor, not a vice.

I presented this image for comparison to those on the Tajong above.

Gavin

[Jean]

Jean,

That is the point I make, those on my blade are part of a talismanic pamor, not a vice.

I presented this image for comparison to those on the Tajong above.

Gavin

Hi Gavin,
Sorry for the misunderstanding and I agree with you.
Regards

[Jean]

Hello Jean,

disagree with you, sorry. I also own some old blades made from files or rasps, it's a typical sign for this. Files/rasps has been high regarded as material for good blades. Good iron material was not found at every corner in old times! :D ;)

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
You have the right to disagree but I maintain my opinion that my blade was not made from a file or rasp and I have the advantage over you to have it in front of me, the pics cannot capture the details of the crisscross lines. And I have plenty of worn files and can make the difference in the pattern even if the old Indonesian files were probably more rustic....
It seems that we will not get a consensus on this subject and I will personally not comment it anymore :)
Regards

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello Detlef,
You have the right to disagree but I maintain my opinion that my blade was not made from a file or rasp and I have the advantage over you to have it in front of me, the pics cannot capture the details of the crisscross lines. And I have plenty of worn files and can make the difference in the pattern even if the old Indonesian files were probably more rustic....
It seems that we will not get a consensus on this subject and I will personally not comment it anymore :)
Regards

Jean,

I understand your position on the chopper of yours.
Have a look at this old knife, early 20th century Bhutan, from a file, I think I have another here to share too, but look close at the formation. This was a thick spine with good distal taper to a very hard and sharp edge...not the pattern, even after grinding to shape, the lines are retained throughout its surfaces.
I am sure you've seen such things but for the discussion, I think the image is relevant.

Gavin

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,
You have the right to disagree but I maintain my opinion that my blade was not made from a file or rasp and I have the advantage over you to have it in front of me, the pics cannot capture the details of the crisscross lines. And I have plenty of worn files and can make the difference in the pattern even if the old Indonesian files were probably more rustic....
It seems that we will not get a consensus on this subject and I will personally not comment it anymore :)
Regards

Hello Jean,

my comment wasn't meant in the direction to attack you in any manner. Sorry when it appeared like this. It was just my opinion and of course it is something different to hold it in hand or see it only by pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

[Jean]

Hello Jean,

my comment wasn't meant in the direction to attack you in any manner. Sorry when it appeared like this. It was just my opinion and of course it is something different to hold it in hand or see it only by pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
No worry, subject closed :)
Regards

[David]

That is the point I make, those on my blade are part of a talismanic pamor, not a vice.
One might argue that all pamor that is intentionally manipulated to create a pattern that holds symbolic meaning for its owner is "talismanic" in nature. I would also argue though that these lines cannot be considered "part of a talismanic pamor" as they are applied after the fact, no. And if we could show that these lines are intentional, and not merely the artifact of time in a vise, or in some cases because the blade itself was forged from file, that still does not provide any evidence that their intention was meant to be of a talismanic nature and not merely decorative. I am certainly open to new information on how these cross-hatched lines hold some spiritual or mystical meaning, but until then they are nothing more than decorative patterns to me, regardless of how they occurred. When this thread was opened i had really hoped we might see more examples of verifiable talismanic markings on keris blades. We all know there are many varieties that can indeed legitimately be called talismanic. Yet we seem to have devoted this thread to forging flaws and unverifiable cross-hatched markings. Surely we can find some markings that we can all agree are talismanic to talk about on this thread. :confused: :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

One might argue that all pamor that is intentionally manipulated to create a pattern that holds symbolic meaning for its owner is "talismanic" in nature. I would also argue though that these lines cannot be considered "part of a talismanic pamor" as they are applied after the fact, no. And if we could show that these lines are intentional, and not merely the artifact of time in a vise, or in some cases because the blade itself was forged from file, that still does not provide any evidence that their intention was meant to be of a talismanic nature and not merely decorative. I am certainly open to new information on how these cross-hatched lines hold some spiritual or mystical meaning, but until then they are nothing more than decorative patterns to me, regardless of how they occurred. When this thread was opened i had really hoped we might see more examples of verifiable talismanic markings on keris blades. We all know there are many varieties that can indeed legitimately be called talismanic. Yet we seem to have devoted this thread to forging flaws and unverifiable cross-hatched markings. Surely we can find some markings that we can all agree are talismanic to talk about on this thread. :confused: :shrug:

David,

Perhaps I should not have included the image and details I did as the thread is about markings not pamor. In retrospect, to me, two vastly different things, one being manipulation of steel, the other an application of markings.

The image I presented is the result of steel manipulation, however, it is I guess, still a good reference point.

Gavin