The flowers on the tulwar hilts

[Jens Nordlunde]

Could someone interested in researching, not help out a bit, and please start a research on the flowers on the tulwar hilts?
A lot of hilts/flowers are shown in my latest catalogue, so this could be a starter.
At the moment I cant do it myself, as I am wound up in researching some katar types, which I believe belong together, but I yet have to prove it.
What I know so far is, that they are from Rajasthan, ande the age seem to differ. They are shown in old catalogues, but the place of origin is avoided, and so is the age. So I will have to dig deeper to find an answer.
It would, however, help if someone will take the task to start looking into the flowers on the tulwar hilts - so we can move a bit farther than we are now.
Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for bringing up this topic Jens!
This is something we have talked about for years, that there seem to be far deeper purposes and meanings beyond pure aesthetics in the floral and vegetal motifs in these hilt decorations.

While many may disagree on hidden symbolisms in such decoration, I am inclined to think these must have been present. In "Hindu Arms and Ritual", Robert Elgood beautifully addressed the many ritual and symbolic aspects of all sorts of flora with respect to preparation for battle, insignia and auspicious representations.

I am hoping others will agree and join in revisiting this important topic, and share thoughts and ideas on floral symbolism in Indian arms.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have some sketches with flowers on...and pictures.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

More...

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent images Ibrahiim! Thank you.
As I look at these, I can visualize the many incredible hilts of the swords in Jens' collection as shown in his magnificent new catalog.

As Jens has asked for us to join in his long standing research on the floral imagery on tulwar hilts, I wanted to add some material I had found on Mughal hilt decoration.

In " The Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" by Stephen Markel ('Marg' magazine, Vol.50 #3, Mar. 1999) it is noted that
"...throughout the Mughal period there were several basic uses of flora and fauna imagery in the decorative arts. First and foremost was adornment for both solely decorative and or dynastic identifying purposes."

It is noted that dagger and sword hilts, sheaths and scabbards were the most prolifically decorated. The hilts were designed with floral and vegetal forms, raised or inlaid poppy plants or other flowers or terminating in floral shapes. Single buds were most favored terminals at end of knuckleguard.


Shah Jahan (r. 1628-58) used floral imagery codifying flowering plants as dynastic leitmotif and this practice endured for two centuries.

By the end of the Mughal period in mid 19th c these dynastic emblems of flowering plants had paled into a repetitive motif far less aesthetic than the elegant representations of the 17th c.

These notes from Markel's excellent article suggest that with the Mughal sphere, the choices for floral imagery was at least in large degree to represent their dynastic symbolism.

Perhaps these identifications of the flowers represented might assist in dating a hilt, not only by the flower represented, but the character and quality of its presentation .

In the case of Rajput or Sikh examples, these might align with either Hindu floral motif, which I believe was more aligned religiously in character, though it would seem that motifs often transcended deeper symbolisms in being copied aesthetically in other contexts. With that being the case, the Mughal decoration may well have been found in these also.

Having noted these aspects, what needs to be discovered and categorized is the nature of depictions of various flower and vegetal motif, and if possible any provenance which might place them in certain contexts.

[ariel]

After almost 40 years of marriage, my wife finally summarized two of my hopeless basic flaws:
1. Even though I am not color blind, I am "color deaf".
2. For me, any flowering thingie with thorns is a rose, and without them, - a tulip.

The former is an insurmountable obstacle for choosing an appropriate tie for a shirt. The latter disqualifies me from deciphering decorative floral motives on anything, including Oriental weapons.

When the two are combined ( such as bringing her flowers) the result is usually catastrophic.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim,

The drawings/hilts you are showing are very interesting.
The dravings were often used by goldsmiths to show to customers, so they could choose a decoration for their hilt.
Illustration no 7, have a look at the middle hilt and compare it to the one I show in the catalogue pp. 303-306. These two hilts must have been made at the same workshop. Ibrahiim do you have a better picture of this hilt?
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,

The drawings/hilts you are showing are very interesting.
The dravings were often used by goldsmiths to show to customers, so they could choose a decoration for their hilt.
Illustration no 7, have a look at the middle hilt and compare it to the one I show in the catalogue pp. 303-306. These two hilts must have been made at the same workshop. Ibrahiim do you have a better picture of this hilt?
Jens

I dont have your catalogue reference so I dont know... I take it you mean the #4 sketch?... I am in the UK in a few days and will try to get your catalogue. ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim,
I mean the hilt looking like the attached.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
I mean the hilt looking like the attached.

Salaams, It is amazing that I have posted one so like yours except mine has a Knuckleguard... I will search to see if there is a better picture meanwhile a few more ...This Tegha has a Tulvar hilt and interesting floral decor whilst on a black background; a Tulvar hilt covered in Script except for a single small flower between the Guard.

The name Tul(var) means flower...and the Afghanistan version is Pul(ouar) . Does this refer to the abundance of floral decoration or give rise to it? On the other hand may the design of the flower shaped pommel have any relation to the hilt/sword name?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Some more...The black background from the Caravanna Collection:

Quote"17th Century

Western India - Gujarat, Mughal period (1526-1858)

Steel, gold

Height 18 cm

Tulwar hilt dated to the 17th century, shaped as a bird dated from the 17th century with a hand guard forming the profile of a swan. The entire surface is covered with floral motifs, engraved and inlayed in gold, in the koftgari technique.

Bibl.: Jawaant, 2005, p. 83; Nath Pant, 1978, vol. 3, est. CXX." Unquote.

I note that the swan neck finial of the knuckleguard is almost exactly that of the Afghanistan swan neck...

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes the decoration of the hilts is interesting, and varies from place to place and from time to time according to fashion.
However, what I was thinking of was the flower on top of the disc. Either it is a flower or a sun, or missing all together. I think this is a better pointer than the floral decoration of the hilt.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry Richard, I overlooked you mail at first.
Having the head filled with flowers - the right side with roses, and the left side with tulips - I am sure Ariel will understand my stress:-).
You you are right, we did discuss the flowers on top of the disc, but although I find this very interesting, and research should be done, someone else must do it, as I have only one head and two hands, and I have started to research some katar types, which I have wanted to research for a long time. The research is slow, as not much is found about them, and the informations to have, seems to differe quite a bit of for how long time this katar group was used.

I hope you will like the catalogue when you get it:-) - all the best to you all.

Jens

[Jim McDougall]

After posting the notes from the article by Stephen Markel, and seeing that apparently in degree, floral motif was used as a dynastic leitmotif by the Mughals, from the time of Shah Jahan onward, it seems that aesthetics also were largely in play.

While Persian poetry and art as well as of course many cultural factors were prevalent in Mughal courts, it seems well established that European influence was also well known and apparently from the 'herbals' of 16thc among such influences. In the attached article from the British Museum,
"Mughal Flower Studies and Their European Inspiration" by J.P.Losty, these cases are discussed, providing insight into aspects of these influences.

It is noted that while the herbals from Europe were primarily from a botanical, rather than aesthetic point of view, it does seem that a certain degree of the character of the illustrations did become notable in Mughal art.
One reference is to the "DARA SHIKOH ALBUM" which is cited as one of the most important artifacts in the museum library.
Dara Shikoh was Shah Jahan's eldest and favorite son (1615-58) who compiled these floral references.
Included is an illustration (attached) of a prince in Persian costume by the 'mysterious' artist Muhammed Khan noted as possibly from the Deccan and engaged by Dara Shikoh when the Emperors court was in Burhanpur in 1630-32.

The arrangement in the vase appears taken somewhat from an Antwerp publication of c1590 (attached) reflecting this influence.

While these references pertain the art in paintings, they were of course the source for floral images which would occur on the hilts of weapons. In the case of the Mughal interpretation, the mix and match assortment of such floral arrangements were not suitable for such motif, however individual flower images were selected and became studies for decoration.

Again, the focus here is on the Mughal decorative motif may be regarded as prevalent on tulwars as they are of course known mostly in that context, it is more difficult to relegate such motifs to Rajput, Sikh and other situations.

I hope this will offer some insight and ideas toward further research on this topic. Please see the attached link below to the full article I noted by Mr. Losty.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

After posting the notes from the article by Stephen Markel, and seeing that apparently in degree, floral motif was used as a dynastic leitmotif by the Mughals, from the time of Shah Jahan onward, it seems that aesthetics also were largely in play.

While Persian poetry and art as well as of course many cultural factors were prevalent in Mughal courts, it seems well established that European influence was also well known and apparently from the 'herbals' of 16thc among such influences. In the attached article from the British Museum,
"Mughal Flower Studies and Their European Inspiration" by J.P.Losty, these cases are discussed, providing insight into aspects of these influences.

It is noted that while the herbals from Europe were primarily from a botanical, rather than aesthetic point of view, it does seem that a certain degree of the character of the illustrations did become notable in Mughal art.
One reference is to the "DARA SHIKOH ALBUM" which is cited as one of the most important artifacts in the museum library.
Dara Shikoh was Shah Jahan's eldest and favorite son (1615-58) who compiled these floral references.
Included is an illustration (attached) of a prince in Persian costume by the 'mysterious' artist Muhammed Khan noted as possibly from the Deccan and engaged by Dara Shikoh when the Emperors court was in Burhanpur in 1630-32.

The arrangement in the vase appears taken somewhat from an Antwerp publication of c1590 (attached) reflecting this influence.

While these references pertain the art in paintings, they were of course the source for floral images which would occur on the hilts of weapons. In the case of the Mughal interpretation, the mix and match assortment of such floral arrangements were not suitable for such motif, however individual flower images were selected and became studies for decoration.

Again, the focus here is on the Mughal decorative motif may be regarded as prevalent on tulwars as they are of course known mostly in that context, it is more difficult to relegate such motifs to Rajput, Sikh and other situations.

I hope this will offer some insight and ideas toward further research on this topic. Please see the attached link below to the full article I noted by Mr. Losty.



Salaams Jim, I have discovered a remarkable painting in a collection of miniatures put together for the somewhat mystic son Dara Shikoh for his wife but that collection was partly painted over in gold hiding his work / involvement (he was a master of calligraphy) done by members of the Royal Court probably of Aurangazeb who had him executed after he, Dara, had lost a key battle with Aurangazeb... for the throne.

What I find intriguing is that the floral style in these flowers in the largest picture below is exactly the same as those for the work on the Tulvar Hilt floral decoration...:shrug:

There is always a possible link in the hypothesis of some form of mystical tie up with the concept of decoration in the Tulvar and some hidden secret concerning the sword...it's possible proximity/relationship to the name Tulvar and floral image...Tul means flower as does Pul...Thus Tulvar and Pulouar...After all; Dara Shikoh even tried to consider a joint Hindu Arabic link in the two language forms as well as a host of other mystical cult experiences. Could his incredible collection of art work be related to the designs on Tulvar Hilts? See the floral work below from The "DARA SHIKOH ALBUM"

See https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2016/oct/10/a-celebration-of-botanical-art-throughout-history-in-pictures

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

And more from The British Library ~ Nadira Banu actually died before Dara Shikoh...of dysentery in Baluchistan...see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadira_Banu_Begum for clarity . Was this documents floral art used in the Royal Court as the artistic technique register for Artists and Artisans working on Tulvar masterpieces from that date?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Jens,

Firstly, Thank You for making your catalogue available! I have not yet got my copy.
When you started this thread, I wondered if you meant the flower (phool) or the disc decoration.
Quite a few years ago, I recall our discussions on just this subject, but am afraid I recall it imperfectly now.
I am quite sure however that the gist we agreed upon, was that the flower (on Hindu arms) was not merely decorative, but to attract the attention of a deity for some purpose, Or to symbolise the same.
I know poppies are associated with a certain deity, but do not remember which at present! Poppies are a very common theme in hilt decoration, as are Lotus buds.
For some reason, fishes as decoration appear to be limited to katars, and this may seem odd to others besides myself!
Fishes/Vishnu or one of the associated incarnations of the same deity never (never??) seem to appear on sword hilts.
I will have to do some looking and thinking on this interesting subject Jens. It has been off the back-burner for a Long time!


Salaams Pukka Bundook See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12134&page=2&pp=30&highlight=wallace+collection # 41 where there is a Tulvar sword numbered 1412 in that collection with Fish on the hilt... as below ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Pukka Bundook]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I thought when I wrote 'never' it would bring something to light!
Thank you for the link to that spectacular thread.
The tulwar you show here is very different in decoration to any I have seen before. Very well done and possibly unique. Thank you for this!


Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think we will have to see the 'flower' decorations in two steps.
The Phool is to my oppinion more orientated to a place/clan/sub clan and so on. As it is likely that the different clans, maybe of the same religion would use the same Phool. It can sometimes be a bit difficult to know which clan/sub clan belonged together, as they had differrent names.
The other flower decoration, the one on the hilt, is also somewhat orientated to a place, but far more to a fashion - to when it was made. This leads me to warn you that some of the decorations were made on far older weapons. The old decoration stripped off, and a new decoration started a new era of the weapon.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I suggest that since this excellent thread is nowhere near complete that it be given the traditional Forum Bump ! bringing it into focus for further research and comments.

In particular the mystic nature of this hilt artwork and its importance across the entire range of Indian weapons. In fact I would have preferred its tittle to have been all encompassing perhaps netting in the entire conundrum as Talismanic and Mystical Artwork of Indian Weapons; down the ages, or Indian Bladed Weapons; Mystical and Talismanic artwork. Or something similar so that the subject can have a full airing.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

As an example of the apparent depth of the puzzle surrounding Daro Shikoh I refer here to the odd situation of his portrait portfolio at http://www.academia.edu/7202804/The_Dara_Shikoh_Album_A_Reinterpretation

Quote''Most of the paintings can be fitted into a preconceived scheme, although the precise purpose of the flower paintings is not yet quite clear. The significant numbers of religious figures and both Hindu and Muslim ascetics of various persuasions obviously reflect Dara Shikoh’s early interest in religion and philosophy. Two Hindu yogis who form a pair by themselves are of earlier date than the rest of the album and these paintings have been enlarged to fit in. This is the only instance of paired ascetics in the album.

The prince we know from his writings was interested in Hindu philosophy from his youth, although he did not write about it until the late 1640s. He also studied the Hindu philosophical system of the Vedanta and produced a Persian translation of the Sanskrit Upanishads, while one of his later books compares the two mystical philosophies of the Vedanta and Sufism ''Unquote.

Although the reference draws a secondary conclusion based on the artwork it may be important to note that he was very much a believer in the Mystic aspects of life then...and it is worth looking at the floral clues on weaponry for a link. On the other hand it could turn out as a general statement that Daro Shikoh whilst fascinated by the arts, that this was entirely co incidental and that sword hilts..and possibly other weapons were simply painted to a set of known designs and that no such mystic based link prevailed.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see; http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1800_1899/women/talismans/talismans.html

I have selected this North Indian design as it struck me that its circular pattern was reminiscent of the large disc atop Tulvar Pommels ..It is typically in Indian script and follows the geometry of such weapons ...whilst conveniently it is part of a treatise on Talismanic detail.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see; http://mini-site.louvre.fr/trois-empires/en/sculptures-incrustations.php

The following article which perhaps could have included the description Floral Artwork is entitled;

Quote"]Hardstones, gems and ivory in Mughal India[/U].

Hardstone marquetry is a long-standing local tradition. The refined technique of inlay, which the Persian and Mughal chroniclers refer to as parchîn kârî, and which was brought to an almost unbelievable peak of excellence by the imperial stoneworkers during the reign of Shah Jahan, consisted of setting in marble or sandstone thin sections of hard or semi-hard stones that had been cut with the greatest of care and fashioned in the shape of tendrils and floral arabesques. The Frenchman François Bernier , who lived in India between 1656 and 1668, describes the mausoleum built by the Mughal emperor Shah Jahan (1628-1658) for his wife Mumtâz Mahal, in a letter dated 1663 to Monsieur de La Mothe Le Vayer: he speaks with great enthusiasm of the mausoleum’s perfect architecture and of its opulent interior decoration, floral motifs in white marble inlaid with jade, jasper and other sorts of precious stones.

The hardstones used in the decoration of the Taj Mahal, as well as in palaces and imperial buildings all over India and in the surrounding regions, included yellow amber from Burma, lapis-lazuli from Afghanistan, nephrite from Chinese Turkestan, and carnelian, agate, amethyst, jasper, green beryl, chalcedony, onyx and coral from the different regions of the huge Indian sub-continent.

At the Mughal court precious and semi-precious stones were also used to highlight imperial tableware, writing desks, mirrors, huqqa, weapons, royal saddles and even gold and silver gem-studded thrones. Rock-crystal and jade, hardstones which could only be worked with diamond dust, were particularly appreciated at the Mughal court. Objects fashioned in the second half of the seventeenth century by Mughal ateliers or karkhâna from jade – or to be more precise from the nephrite and jadeite imported from Kashgar and from Khotan – such as boxes and pen boxes, huqqa stands and mouthpieces, dagger hilts and archer’s thumb rings, bowls and cups, are particularly remarkable for their delicate inlays of precious stones, predominantly emeralds, diamonds, rubies and spinels, set in gold and forming stylized floral motifs.

Jade was thought to contain talismanic virtues such as the power of prolonging life – and indeed even that of ensuring immortality; it was also considered to favor success on the battlefield – hence its name of “stone of victory”. It was therefore considered the most appropriate material for the manufacture of ornate arms symbolizing victory. The hilts of these ornate weapons which were only used for ceremonial purposes were often carved in the shape of the head of a horse, a ram, an antelope, a lion or a falcon, always with a quite remarkable and moving expressivity. This repertoire of animal motifs is known to have existed as early as the second half of the reign of Jahangir, and became particularly important under the emperor Shah Jahan.

Ivory carving was an important craft in ancient India. It was to be equally appreciated at the Mughal court, where it was used in the making and ornamentation of chests and caskets, as well as dagger hilts, flasks and powder horns. The latter were given a lively, zoomorphic décor, in which different birds and animals were intermingled – elephants, lions, monkeys, buffaloes, rams, antelopes and hares, as well as composite and imaginary animals. Hunt scenes predominate in these exuberant animal scenes, derived from the iconographic repertoire of Mughal miniatures. Similar scenes also appear in the décor of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century Mughal carpets. Some of the ivory powder horns were clearly gilded and embellished with colors, and the eyes of the animals were occasionally encrusted with amber and precious or semi-precious stones.

The floral and plant motifs predominate in the decorative repertoire of Mughal India. The combination of the naturalistic yet subtly stylized treatment of Mughal flowers, together with their balanced and symmetrical arrangement, is emblematic of Mughal taste in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, when the floral motif became a leitmotiv that permeated all the arts of the court (textiles and decorative arts, arts of the book) and even architecture. This fascination with the floral motif can be traced back to the reign of the Emperor Jahangir. It originated during a journey made by Jahangir in 1620 to Kashmir, a country where the emperor was enchanted by the variety and profusion of the flowers which grew there, and which he was subsequently wont to describe as “a garden where spring reigns eternally”. During this trip the monarch was accompanied by one of the great masters of the imperial atelier of painting, the animal painter Ustâd Mansûr Nâdir al’Asr, who, at the request of the sovereign, executed more than a hundred flower studies, of which only three precious examples still survive.

This poetic delight in the exuberant blossoming flowers of Kashmir was reinforced by the discovery of European herbals brought to the Mughal court by Jesuit missionaries and agents of the East India Company.

The herbals were to exert considerable influence on Mughal flower painting, on the precision with which they were drawn, on the extreme care taken with the representation of botanical details, and on the presence of butterflies and dragonflies fluttering above the corollas and leaves, which Mughal artists, who were familiar with Persian works, often replaced with small meandrous-shaped Chinese clouds (t’chi), which were considered in China to be the vehicles of the gods, and which became a decorative motif in Persian art. As so pertinently noted by M. L. Swietochowski, the regular arrangement of flowers and bouquets in the margins of Mughal miniatures is reminiscent of the ornamentation of a number of Books of Hours from the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, and perhaps even more so of the borders of Flemish engravings on religious subjects".Unquote

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is an interesting sword! Of particular interest is the floral decoration which may be relevant to the thread..

Do these floral designs have a Talismanic/ secret meaning?

Please see http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O14450/sword-of-dara-shikoh-sword/

Quote"The very fine watered steel blade of this sword is inscribed on the back of the blade with a Persian inscription inlaid in gold stating that it belonged to the Mughal prince Dara Shokuh (1615-1659), the son and preferred successor of the emperor Shah Jahan (r. 1628-1658). The verses may be translated as: 'This sword (tigh) of the princed called Dara Shokuh/Takes care of a thousand enemies at one go'. When Shah Jahan fell ill in 1658, another son, Aurangzeb, usurped the throne, had Dara Shokuh killed during a fierce war of succession and declared himself emperor with the title 'Alamgir.

The blade is also inlaid on one side with a gold parasol signifying its royal ownership. The sword must have been made in a court workshop, perhaps in Lahore which was a traditional centre of weapons production. A date is stamped on one side of the blade near a forte. The third digit is indistinct, but is probably '5', making the date 1050 AH, or 1640-41".Unquote.

[Jim McDougall]

This is really an interesting topic, and as Jens has asked, to research more on the flowers on tulwar hilts. Naturally, the floral designs extend to daggers and sheaths as well.
As I noted in my earlier posts, an interesting article is by Stephan Markel, "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" ('Marg', Vol.50, #3, Mar. 1999, pp.25-35).
He notes; "...throughout the Mughal period there were several basic uses of flora and fauna imagery in the decorative arts. First and foremost was adornment for both solely decorative and/or dynastic identifying purposes.
Along with jewellery, dagger and sword hilts, sheath and scabbards were the most prolific court object to be accented with floral imagery". (p.27)

Also noted is that by the end of the Mughal period in the mid 19th c. the dynastic emblem of flowering plants had paled into a repetitive motif less aesthetic than the elegant flowers of the 17th c.

It seems there are considerable 'floral lore' assessments of the symbolism of certain flowers in various religions, which vary in degree but in religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism, the seems one of the most significant.

In Islam, there is a great deal of aesthetic attention to arrangement of floral and botanicals as the focus on replicating the Gardens of Paradise and their beauty is a key theme. Meanwhile, it does seem that the use of codified representations of certain flowers were dynastic representations.

It would be interesting to discover more on which flowers were indicative of which dynasty and how they were portrayed in various regions or periods.
There is mention of 'Mughalization' of Hindu forms of flower in some cases.

It seems less likely for talismanic application in most cases, as most of what is described seems to refer to aesthetic floral themes in favored arrangements and certain codification probably aligned with dynastic favor of those themes.

In the case of the interior of the pommel discs, it seems these motif may be themed after certain solar or celestial subjects, but can be floral as well.
I am curious if these follow the theme of the hilt or can differ.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is really an interesting topic, and as Jens has asked, to research more on the flowers on tulwar hilts. Naturally, the floral designs extend to daggers and sheaths as well.
As I noted in my earlier posts, an interesting article is by Stephan Markel, "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" ('Marg', Vol.50, #3, Mar. 1999, pp.25-35).
He notes; "...throughout the Mughal period there were several basic uses of flora and fauna imagery in the decorative arts. First and foremost was adornment for both solely decorative and/or dynastic identifying purposes.
Along with jewellery, dagger and sword hilts, sheath and scabbards were the most prolific court object to be accented with floral imagery". (p.27)

Also noted is that by the end of the Mughal period in the mid 19th c. the dynastic emblem of flowering plants had paled into a repetitive motif less aesthetic than the elegant flowers of the 17th c.

It seems there are considerable 'floral lore' assessments of the symbolism of certain flowers in various religions, which vary in degree but in religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism, the seems one of the most significant.

In Islam, there is a great deal of aesthetic attention to arrangement of floral and botanicals as the focus on replicating the Gardens of Paradise and their beauty is a key theme. Meanwhile, it does seem that the use of codified representations of certain flowers were dynastic representations.

It would be interesting to discover more on which flowers were indicative of which dynasty and how they were portrayed in various regions or periods.
There is mention of 'Mughalization' of Hindu forms of flower in some cases.

It seems less likely for talismanic application in most cases, as most of what is described seems to refer to aesthetic floral themes in favored arrangements and certain codification probably aligned with dynastic favor of those themes.

In the case of the interior of the pommel discs, it seems these motif may be themed after certain solar or celestial subjects, but can be floral as well.
I am curious if these follow the theme of the hilt or can differ.

Hello Jim, Your detailed post is well accepted and hopefully the Talismanic values of the floral artwork can be realized. The fact that the sword of Dara Shikoh can reveal something interesting in that regard could be interesting... though in fact what he was trying to do ... and the main reason that Aurangezeb was able to have him executed was tied up to the Mystic situation and where Dara Shikoh attempting to link Islam with Hinduism. That in itself may yield the answers we seek. In other words; Is that what floral decoration was meant to secretly represent? I realize that this is somewhat hypothetical but it may be what everyone is missing.

Did his detractors miss the point in gold painting out any written references (Artistic impression in Islam to them meant the written word and pure geometry only) whilst not seeing the artwork as important?...Perhaps representing to Dara Shikoh the joining of two great religions. Is this possibly what the smokescreen of floral design came to represent?

If he had somehow survived it can be imagined how different history would have been.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Following the reference by Jim earlier I noted from another associated work by Stephen Merkel on http://asianart.com/articles/markel2/index.html

Quote '' Another quality of the finest Mughal jades is that they can exhibit a sophisticated complexity of design with multiple component parts. This complex design is exemplified by a white nephrite dagger hilt dating from around the mid-seventeenth century, which was recently acquired by the San Diego Museum of Art (2004:196)(Fig. 17, below) . The hilt was originally crafted for a type of Mughal dagger with a double-edged curved blade with a strong mid-rib, which in Akbari and Jahangiri historical records was called a khapwah, meaning “the finisher, the giver of coup de grace.”[23] The San Diego khapwah hilt is fashioned in a classic Mughal complex hilt form that was first used for daggers made with metal hilts.[24] This jade example is one of the few known to survive, and replicates the hilt parts derived from metal hilts. The end of the hilt, termed the pommel, is in the form of two leaves that function as the end guards and flank a bud-shaped finial called the tang-button. Around the middle of the hilt grip is a decorative band called the necklace, which is in the form of a flowering vine graced by irises and stylized open poppy blossoms (Fig. 18, below). The base of the grip flares out with bud-shaped terminals that serve as the arms of the cross guard, called quillons, used to protect the hand. A knuckle guard connects the pommel with the quillon on one side. It ends at the pommel in the form of a pendant bud and as a volute at the quillon. Joining the quillon and the grip in the center is an openwork shaft in leaf form that is hollowed to accommodate the blade tang. Protruding from the base of the quillon is a short collar that anchors the blade in place and acts as a coupling when the hilt is inserted into the locket of the sheath. The subtle floral and vegetal designs of the San Diego hilt not only proclaim its Mughal origin, but also create a decorative program that elegantly contrasts and complements its sheer surface''.Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download... :shrug:

In addition please see http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/2014/03/mughal-flower-studies-and-their-european-inspiration.html alluded to by Jim McDougall in an earlier post...

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, thank you for the detailed information and excerpts on the possible talismanic aspects of the decoration on these weapons. It really gives us a lot to consider!
While much of what we are looking into involves the Mughal decoration of tulwar hilts, clearly the links to Hindu imagery play an important part in the development of many of these motifs.

I think the capture and execution of Dara Shikoh was more a result of the typical power struggle between the heirs for control from the standing emperor than differences in idealogy. The fact that Dara Shikoh was quite liberal compared to his younger brother Jahangir and as noted, was deeply involved in mysticism was however a notable circumstance. Elgood explains (p.135, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) that with the forces under these rulers, "...the ideological battle between Islam and Hinduism had limited relevance as mercenaries served either side".

In his book, Elgood explains also that flowers and plants indeed had both certain talismanic as well as dynastic significance in the early Hindu kingdoms and of course Faith. He states (p.129) that "...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value"
Further, that there were nine species of plant associated with the warrior goddess Durga, and the "...red flower is used for good and evil for charms and incantations on the one hand, and for witchcraft and spells on the other".

The exposure with European contact certainly rang true with respect to the various volumes of botanical lore and art known as herbals, as "...the Indians, like the Victorians (much later) had a very precise language of trees and plants and though there are regional differences, plants had a pan Indian value" (p.129).

Also noted is the sweet basil plant called tulsi (ocimum sanctum) associated with Vishnu, and referred to as 'bhutagni' (=killer of demons). Evil spirits including the god of death, Yama, are driven away by this plant, and its leaves often worn in the turban by Rajput and other warriors (p.144).

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Jim and thank you for an excellent reply summarizing what is so far outlined. If I may quote from my last post ~The subtle floral and vegetal designs of the San Diego hilt not only proclaim its Mughal origin, but also create a decorative program that elegantly contrasts and complements its sheer surface''. as being the archetypal description of Mughal work... placing floral design at the zenith of the famous Mughal art style...

and if I can refer to Dora Shikoh since he was executed as a Heretic because he tried with other Mystics to fuse Hinduism and Islam together... His fate was sealed at that point... and the mystery was developed from then on...The Hindu system already had floral Talisman as you state ...and since Aurangzeb completely missed the point of the artistic flowers and focused instead on erasing any written work that Daro had added to that artwork (by painting over with gold paint) we may never know the depth of secrecy hidden in the paintings..if indeed such secrets exist.

In conclusion and whilst no conclusion may exist on the topic here, I fully commend the study of Indian arms (often disregarded by 19th C weaponry writers and ethnographic experts) and especially taking difficult subject matter like this in an attempt to get a beam of light into the far flung corners of the subject as it opens up the entire spectrum of Indian Arms and Armour and puts the pen in the hand of all of us.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

It is interesting to see how the discussion develops, although I had hope for more members to participate.
We must not forget that the Hindu's and the Muslim's used the floral decoration in different ways. Most of the flowers the Hindu's used represented a diety, and so had a special meaning to them. The Muslim's on the other hand, used the floral decoration only for decoration.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is at first a complex subject but well worth getting stuck into. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]It is interesting to see how the discussion develops, although I had hope for more members to participate.
We must not forget that the Hindu's and the Muslim's used the floral decoration in different ways. Most of the flowers the Hindu's used represented a diety, and so had a special meaning to them. The Muslim's on the other hand, used the floral decoration only for decoration.[/QUOTE


Salaams Jens Nordlunde for what is a short but crystal clear point. It was indeed the Islamic view that calligraphy and geometry used as decoration was really the only allowable art form. This explains the gold painting over of such paintings commissioned by Daro on the orders of Aurangzeb whilst ignoring the beautiful floral decoration which as you point out was Hindu...

That the Flowers and Calligraphy were mixed together may have been at the heart of the secret which Daro and his Mystic friends were trying to hide.

Thank you.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, thank you for the detailed information and excerpts on the possible talismanic aspects of the decoration on these weapons. It really gives us a lot to consider!
While much of what we are looking into involves the Mughal decoration of tulwar hilts, clearly the links to Hindu imagery play an important part in the development of many of these motifs.

I think the capture and execution of Dara Shikoh was more a result of the typical power struggle between the heirs for control from the standing emperor than differences in idealogy. The fact that Dara Shikoh was quite liberal compared to his younger brother Jahangir and as noted, was deeply involved in mysticism was however a notable circumstance. Elgood explains (p.135, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004) that with the forces under these rulers, "...the ideological battle between Islam and Hinduism had limited relevance as mercenaries served either side".

In his book, Elgood explains also that flowers and plants indeed had both certain talismanic as well as dynastic significance in the early Hindu kingdoms and of course Faith. He states (p.129) that "...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value"
Further, that there were nine species of plant associated with the warrior goddess Durga, and the "...red flower is used for good and evil for charms and incantations on the one hand, and for witchcraft and spells on the other".

The exposure with European contact certainly rang true with respect to the various volumes of botanical lore and art known as herbals, as "...the Indians, like the Victorians (much later) had a very precise language of trees and plants and though there are regional differences, plants had a pan Indian value" (p.129).

Also noted is the sweet basil plant called tulsi (ocimum sanctum) associated with Vishnu, and referred to as 'bhutagni' (=killer of demons). Evil spirits including the god of death, Yama, are driven away by this plant, and its leaves often worn in the turban by Rajput and other warriors (p.144).

Salaams Jim, Once again I refer to your notes and on the inclusion of the Durga which must be one of the top echelon Deities in Hindu circles. The statue of Durga is often displayed with a huge group of weapons held by the deity which includes The Lotus. Clearly floral association with weapons is at play here...and as you point out other linkages are apparent across the spectrum of floral tributes...

Daro Shikoh must have considered this famous Deity in his Mystical studies and it becomes clearer how he looked at fusing two religions with floral and Calligraphic decoration; Hinduism and Islam. Unfortunately instead of taking over the Mughal dynasty he was judged a Heretic and died because of it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Below some renditions of the famous Deity; Gurda.. In one the clear group of weapons and with one described as The Lotus. Interesting that the main weapon appears as a Tulvar. In the marble figure a Lotus held in one hand...:shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To remind and revise here are some additional items displaying Hindu floral work. It is clear that not only hilts were decorated with floral work but blades, scabbards as well as other weapons thus shields daggers et al were thus endowed. This then is very much key to Hindu style although Hindu script and Islamic form with Calligraphy and geometry were incorporated..

[Jim McDougall]

Notes from Markel (1999, p.31):
During the Mughal regnal; " ...weapon hilts were also designed with floral and or vegetal forms, either adorned with raised or inlaid poppy plants or other flowers or terminating in floral shapes. Single buds were the most favored terminals, such as those used in the end of the knuckleguard and butt of a floral decorated late 17th c. jade sword hilt made to smaller scale for a young prince.
Occasionally multiple blossoms were used as terminals, such as represented on a jade dagger hilt from about 1700-1750 that features three buds inlaid with gemstones.
Not only did Mughal artists create new weapon hilt and vessel forms but they also modified forms from Islamic and/or Hindu design traditions with flora and fauna motifs that 'Mughalized' the pre existing forms appropriate for their desired imagery."

Further, Markel describes a ewer that has been dramatically 'Mughalized' with numerous depictions of POPPY blossoms, which since the time of the pleasure loving Jahangir served in effect as the STATE FLOWER OF THE MUGHALS.

In Elgood (2004, p.130) he describes "...the three royal families of the Tamils in antiquity known collectively as the Mu Ventor, or three kings, and were the Chera, Chola and Pandya.
The first had as its emblem the large white flower of the Palmyra palm (borassus flabelleifer); the second the at or atti common mountain ebony (bauhinia racemosa) and the third the dark branches of margosa (arya veppu)."
The dynastic flower symbols were later replaced by varied animal symbolism.

It seems that flowers as dynastic leitmotif in Hindu convention was replaced as noted by various animal and other symbolism, but the floral and vegetal dynamics were profoundly represented in Hindu metaphysical and talismanic auspicious representations throughout their tradition.

While the Mughals did largely regard many aspects of these Hindu traditions as heretical in varying degree, it does seem that Akbar was intrigued by Indian 'magic', as many of these holdings were regarded. The reputation of 'Indian magic' was in fact well known from antiquity into European cultures.
It would be interesting to know just how much occult and arcane symbolism in the European herbals which became so fascinating to the Mughals might have had origin in India in the first place.

It does not seem that unusual that Dara Shikoh had become keenly involved in the mystical properties of these herbals, and ironically his fascination was well represented with his forebearers as well. His capture and execution by his religiously conservative brother was more a power play with these mystical fascinations simply impetus to implicate him as a heretic.

In much decoration in Indian hilts, the auspicious and talismanic properties of not only animal totemism, but apotropaic properties of precious stones, metals and features such as architectural design are incorporated.
With these motif the Mughals created designs which brought in their own 'Arabesques' of geometric fashion together with these various floral patterns along with these other key elements.

It would seem that the concept of floral symbolism as a dynastic leitmotif with the Mughals had much more ancient origin in the Hindu culture, but clearly served the Mughal purpose well with their Gardens of Paradise theme.


This is a very complex and difficult topic, and it has taken many hours to try to formulate these thoughts, which I hope make at least some sense.
Jens has done the arms collecting community a great service with his gift of a magnificent volume sharing his many years of collecting and study on Indian arms. He has asked for us to join him in seeking more answers on these deeply esoteric topics, and myself and Ibrahiim have joined him in this discussion in hopes that others too may also participate.

I know there are many collectors out there who have in varying degree included Indian arms in their collections. I would ask that they bring out examples that we might examine and discuss the floral motif found, so that we can build the knowledge base on this important topic.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Very good Jim, and to each of the collectors who is willing to show pictures - please comment each picture in your own words.
It is nice to see pictures, but if they are not commented, part of it is missed.

[Pukka Bundook]

Very well put together Jim, and I can tell you have spent a great deal on time on this reply!
Jens,
This is such a deep subject, and time has been too short to comment in depth. No, it is not that I know much, (!) but a comment or two without much thought would not be helpful either, so I have refrained.
I do however find this topic very interesting, and too much of the culture and history of Indian arms has remained in a very murky state for far too long.
It is a long time since we discussed this subject ourselves, and I do want to get back to it. My problem at present is life is rife with "must do now" type things that I unfortunately cannot put off.
Hopefully things will soon settle down, so I can draw up my chair and collect my thoughts and join in !!

Very best,
Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Richard!!! and its fantastic to have you here on this, as you note, very complicated topic. You have been steadily with us over these years of study, and your contributions to our learning have been outstanding. Really looking forward to your joining us on this!!!

All best wishes
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahim,
Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do.
Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there.

Jim,
I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer.

Richard,
Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on.

I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it.
When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, Brilliant post and clearly there are hours of research behind this detailed response...I had to look up Leitmotif! :) which it states is a recurrent theme throughout a musical or literary composition, associated with a particular person, idea, or situation. Thus I see clearly its use on this decorative form as being present in the orchestra of decoration on everything Indian. I was looking through two decades old Sothebys catalogs and discovered the floral spread on Indian Carpets and even on the fittings on Hookah pipes. Indian Architecture is of course awash with such splendid decoration. It stands to reason that Indian Arms and Armour is laced with the complex floral designs.
I hope someone can provide the details I requested earlier but I will make the request again here..

Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download...:mad:

I believe this will create the foundation framework so that we can get closer to the answer. Clearly Jim has provided huge clues from this document so that having the whole thesis to hand may well be a bonus to Library. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

Thank you but that is the web page I have been drumming on for weeks trying to break into it so I can place its details on Library...even though it is 11 pages. ..I cannot download it ..though I have it cornered and try all the time to access I just cannot crack it... Anyone who can get into it please simply copy to Library...on this thread.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim,
Have you read the rules for downloading files from their homepage?

[Jim McDougall]

Jens, can you link this article?
I know Ibrahiim has had some computer issues, and my scanner is on the blink.
Thanks a lot,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim,
Yes I could, but I wont. I have given the link, so that each member can have a look at the article, and that must be enough.
Did you read the rules about copyrights?
Copyright is a world wide thing - but in a way it is also a gentleman agreement, and that is why I will no download it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So that we may proceed and since I made the mistake of asking for a copy of the entire document I will rephrase that asking if I can somehow have a precis of the work sent PM to me from which I will extract the relevant pieces and add to Library..I emphasis that the details are for research purposes and education and I have read the relevant rules appertaining to such work.. :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

Sorry guys, I clearly had forgotten the copyright thing, and had been so complacent in the fair use practices that I overlooked that an entire article could not be downloaded per se'. Thank you for being diligent in observing these details which I should be well aware of. Well done.

We will have to simply extract pertinent details in accord with requirements and limit quotes to fair use standards .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is an interesting painting depicting Dara Shikoh with Mystics;from The Agha Khan Museum.

Please see https://www.agakhanmuseum.org/collection/artifact/young-prince-mystics

It is worth considering that this relationship would eventually cause his death sentence carried out by Aurangzeb. It is fascinating that Dara had fused the two religions of Islam and Hinduism into one form. Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/

Is there a secretive subtext in the apparent use of Floral motifs in Mughal weaponry? What would have been the outcome had he survived and inherited the Mughal Dynasty?

[Jens Nordlunde]

The sword hilts were decorated in different ways. Some had a flat decoration, while others had a chiselled decoration. Others had a combination of both, as can be seen in the picture below.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

http://atkinson-swords.com/sword-making-and-decoration/decoration/ goes some way to discuss the different decorative techniques. The author also references Forum library with Inlay, koftgari, repousse, chasing and neillo which I assume is the thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=77&page=1&pp=30&highlight=neillo

As usual a picture being worth 1000 words here is a fine example described as ~

Talwar; gilt metal hilt engraved with foliate decoration; knucklebow with chevron pattern; pommel with scalloped edge, fitted with swivel with red and gold woven wrist strap; steel back-edged blade with deep fuller on face, with gilt inscriptions.

Provenance
One of Tipu Sultan's favourite blades; belonged to his father Hyder Ali Khan.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Maybe the thread should be made a bit broader, so the title should be.
The flowers on the tulwar hilts, and the flowers/suns on top of the disc.
My reason for expanding the title is, that I believe the decoration on top of the disc, or failing decoration, is of importance.
Unfortunately we know very little about these disc decorations, but hopefully we can get the different details together, so we can get a better overall picture. The flowers are very different, and the suns have a very different number of rays, but I find it unlikely that this has to do with an artistic 'fingerprint'.

[A. G. Maisey]

In mainline Hindu belief each deity has an appropriate or favourite flower that is used during puja, here are some examples:-

Lord Ganesh:- His favourite flower is hibiscus, but really you can use any red flower; you can also use other flowers such as roses, or jasmine or marigolds, as well as various leaves. In Ganesh Puja more than 20 types of flowers and leaves are used.

Lord Shiva:- His appropriate colour is white, the most important flower/fruit/leaf in Shiva Puja is the bael (aegle marmelos, bilvapatra, bel). Other flowers can be offered.

Durga:- Her appropriate colour is red, hibiscus is a suitable flower, you can also offer bael fruit/flower/leaf, or lotus, or jasmine (mogra)

Parvati:- All flowers suitable for Lord Shiva are suitable for Parvati

Lord Vishnu:- His favourite flower is lotus. He is also very fond of tulsi (holy basil) leaves.

Lord Brahma:- His most appropriate flowers are lotus and crepe gardenia (firki tagar)

Surya Devata (God of the Sun):- lotus

with thanks to Lord Ganesh

These are just a few examples, the list is endless, and opinions can differ as to what is appropriate, or favourite. Even in what I have given above, I've only given favourites or "most appropriate" in most cases other flowers/leaves/fruits can also be used, and to know them all and their correct order is really the skill of a Brahmin.

The use of these flowers/leaves/fruits as ornamental or decorative motifs would depend upon how and where used, and by whom.

My area of knowledge is the keris, not Indian weaponry, what I've given above is just a touch of an area of subsidiary knowledge that is required to understand some things connected with keris culture, however, my guess would be that the use of these floral motifs in Indian decorative art probably depends very much upon the wishes of the first owner of the object, and perhaps only he knew the true meaning of the use of the motif, according to his understanding.

Where use of these motifs in an Islamic context is concerned, obviously the interpretation will differ.

[Jim McDougall]

Alan, thank you so much for this remarkable and itemized information pertaining to the symbolism associated with various Hindu deities. This is exactly the kind of detail needed to better understand the floral aspects of these hilts, and their imbued symbolism.
It is a well placed reminder as you have noted, that often key data and clues in the study of one field of weapons may be found within studies of other arms, not necessarily directly connected.

As you have well observed, it is most unlikely we can know without a doubt the exact purpose or meaning intended by the original artisan who created the decoration, or that of its intended client or clientele. These imbuements are of other times and circumstances, and their actual intended meanings do not necessarily transcend into later situations or generations. Often times these motifs may simply be repeated aesthetically or traditionally without such aspects being known.

Still, having such insight into the symbolism generally held in Hindu dogma and tradition can give us a reasonably plausible view to evaluate such possibilities.

Also, as noted, there was a good degree of use of Hindu motif melded into the decoration of Islamic arms which was likely far more aesthetically applied in many cases. However, it is known that a number of favored floral patterns became dynastic leitmotif in other cases.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your comment Jim.

I have believed for a long time that it is simply not possible to learn much about keris, by the attempted study of keris. Pretty much all one can gain by studying the keris itself is superficial and often erroneous understandings of the simple physical characteristics.

The Indianised States of South East Asia , most especially Jawa and Bali, owe much to their Indian heritage. That heritage has been combined with indigenous cultural values, and overlaid with the values and beliefs of other cultures, very much so in Java, to a lesser degree in Bali, but the foundations of Hindu-Buddhist symbolism are still there.

To have any hope at all of understanding this symbolism, and the associated values, it is essential to study the society and culture, rather than a single blossom of that culture:- the keris.

I am inclined to believe that using this socio-cultural approach to the study of perhaps any form of weaponry that was/is used by any group of people will yield better results than trying to understand a weapon by studying the weapon itself.

To put it another way:- if we regard weapons as blossoms of a culture, roses, so to speak, we do the same as a dedicated rose gardener does:- we study the soil in which the rose grows, in order to understand the rose. We do not begin with a petal and then work back to the soil. Study of a petal tells us almost nothing, study of the soil tells us almost everything.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Alan, thank you for your posts. They are very interesting, especially the part about the flowers connected to the deieties. I have always thought that the number of flowers were more limited.
Your last post explains it all quite well, and the way you end the post explains very well how a research should be started:-).

[ariel]

[QUOTE=Jens Nordlunde]..... It was indeed the Islamic view that calligraphy and geometry used as decoration was really the only allowable art form.....

With all due respect, this is a tremendously simplified and rather incorrect point of view.
Aniconism as such was officially introduced by Caliph al-Malik in ~697 CE ( that was when islamo-byzantine coins stopped carrying portraits of the Caliph ( or presumably Muhammed himself) and became image-less tokens.
However, in a little bit of time Persians, Mamluks, Moghuls and Ottomans produced enormous numbers of detailed miniatures with human images and even portraits, including Muhammed himself, and some of those images were pretty risque, not to say pornographic.

Perhaps the only society where uniconism still persisted was Aravia proper, but even there crude engraving were created.

Hadiths proscribe music as well, but it was never suppressed and flourished unabated everywhere. Even alcohol was used in some islamic societies and strains.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems whenever approaching a topic where highly complex aspects are involved, particularly religion and the Islamic Faith, it becomes necessary to highly quantify virtually every view or comment expressed. I think this is a good example, and as certainly the case, we do need to recognize these religious complexities in degree to better understand the symbolic and decorative aspects used in these hilts.

While the observation that there were certain proscriptions toward the portrayal or imagery of sentient beings in many cases in the numerous schools of thought and other divisions in the Islamic Faith is correct, the variations are indeed innumerable.

With the Mughals, as a whole these dynasties belonged to both Sunni and Shi'a followings, and the Sufi followings were present a varying degree.
While Ottomans were largely Sunni, the Janissaries were Bektashi Shi'a and again other variations were likely followed as with various nations in that empire and their Faiths.
The Persians of course were Shi'a and followed different approach to decorative allowances. The Mamluks were again of various followings.

It seems that with all of these empires, dynasties and nations there were considerable instances of degrees of synchretism between these Faiths and followings, and to adamantly classify certain restrictions presumed broadly applied probably best avoided.
I fully concede I am not a theologian, but this assessment is based on what understanding I have toward these historic periods and the Faith observed in them.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think we must take into consideration , that the Hindu decoration of artifacts and weapons was used centuries before the Mughals arrived at the scene.
Before the Muslims arrived in India, they were influenced from different countries, but the Hindu's also had their own style.
Alan is right, scratching the stone doesn't help to understand, one must dig deeper.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Alan, in the article The use of Floral and Fauna Imagery on Mughal Decorative Arts, Stephan Markel writes about a water ewer from Lahore around 1700.
"While the shape follows earlier established conventions, it has been dramatically 'Mughalized' with numerous descriptions of poppy blossoms, which since the time of the pleasure-loving Jahangir (r. 1605-1627) served in effect as the state flower of the Mughals."

Is the poppy also often seen on the keris'?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think we must take into consideration , that the Hindu decoration of artifacts and weapons was used centuries before the Mughals arrived at the scene.
Before the Muslims arrived in India, they were influenced from different countries, but the Hindu's also had their own style.
Alan is right, scratching the stone doesn't help to understand, one must dig deeper.


Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I agree entirely with your perspective however, I believe that the concept of Islamic versus Hindu art is not up for scrutiny except that it is the balance of both when viewed through the lens of Dara Shikoh and conversely by Aurangzeb who had him executed for trying to fuse the two structures as one. It is therefor nothing to do with religion per se...although you could argue that heresy being the charge Dara had no chance of survival in the situation he found himself surrounded by...May I also point to the time zone that Floral art form more fully became accepted into Hindu art which was apparently not always the case~ As I stated at #51 here Viz;

It is fascinating that Dara (had tried to) fused the two religions of Islam and Hinduism into one form. Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/

It can be seen in the reference how Moghul art developed through phases until direct attention became focussed upon Floral artworks at the very time Dara Shikoh (and by his artists) were being influenced by Mystics perhaps pointing to their secretive and hidden meanings in weaponry decor; particularly hilts. It could be stated that he was one of the main patrons of this floral art form

What seems odd is that the zenith of floral paintings seems to be at the time Dara Shiko was inspired to have artists view flowers especially vases filled with blosoms...and more weirdly influenced by European (EIC) styles which were copied in an attempt to show more realism in Moghul art.

It is worth contemplating what would have been the outcome had Dara Shikoh somehow won against Aurangzeb ...He would have inherited the Mughal crown and in the style of Machiavellian events akin to the Tudors, Aurangzeb would probably have been executed and two great styles may even have been joined.

By now, we would all know the methods and secrets of Tulvar hilt decoration.

See also http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2014/03/mughal-flower-studies-and-their-european-inspiration.html

The prime reasoning behind accepting into Moghul Art the European exactness of botanical studies in floral form was that it enabled greater accuracy in colours and in lifelike portrayals of subject matter.

Floral artwork of that period around 1620 to 1630 added below.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jens, I do not know of the poppy in Javanese decorative art.

In Malay, which means in Indonesian also, there is a word for the poppy:- "apiun". But there is no word in Javanese for the ornamental poppy.

In Malay, Indonesian and in Javanese there is a word for the opium poppy:- "madat".

In fact, I doubt that the poppy could grow in Java or Bali.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems that from the time of Akbar (1542-1605) there had been a notable tolerance of religions, and Akbar had been key in developing a rather syncretic approach to recognizing tenets of Hindu, Zorastrianism and Christianity. These attitudes and conventions seem to continue through his son Jahangir and grandson Shahjahan. During these times "...Shah Jahan not only continued his fathers love of floral imagery in his decorative arts, but also codified formal portraits of flowering plants as a dynastic leitmotif that was to continue for the next two centuries", (Markel, 1999, p26).

It states further that during this period, "...the naturalistic portrayals of noble animals favored in Akbari and Jahangiri paintings were adopted for use in the decorative arts.
As was generally the case with imperial painting, the decorative arts under Aurengzeb (1658-1707) and later Mughal emperors emulated those established during the reign of Shah Jahan". (Markel, p.26).

It is indicated that probably the same craftsmen were employed as the work carried strong resemblances to predecessors but it seems that as Aurengzebs reign progressed the styles began to degenerate and become more stylized. By the mid 19th century, the elegant floral depictions of the 17th c had become more stylized and repetitive.

It would seem that the more austere and orthodox character of Aurengzebs reign had, while allowing initially the continuance of these styles from earlier reigns, the lack of inspiration artistically and simple imitation had seriously degraded the floral theme.
It appears that under Aurengzeb, the characteristic calligraphic and geometric themes were advanced in the decorative arts, though as noted, repetitive floral themes continued in degree.

In the case of the poppy, this was of course a key floral theme during Jahangirs time, and carried on through Dara Shikoh, clearly for its pleasure giving properties. I am wondering if perhaps this particular flower may have been stricken from the themes during Aurengzeb given his highly orthodox character.

Also, perhaps the poppy in its more degenerative renderings may have occurred in influence in other art of regions such as Java, but simply as an interpretation of such themes. As a directly applied floral theme, as Alan indicates, probably not likely.

[Jens Nordlunde]

When it comes to the decoration on the top of the disc things gets somewhat more complicated.
To take the sun decoration, of which I have several, but the suns are different and the number of rays also. Some have an even number of rays while others have an uneven number. I dont know why it is so, but think it could have something to do with the different clans.
One from Salumbar/Udaipur/Mewar (dated 1870-71) has 40 rays (cat. p. 206), while one from Ulwar (late 18th century)has only 27 rays (cat. p. 241).

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry, I should have shown the suns - here they are.
The one with the short rays is from Salumbar, and the one with the long rays is from Ulwar

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jens,
Thank you for showing these fantastic images of the pommel disc interiors!
It seems that over the years the decorative motif on tulwar hilts has virtually always concentrated on the hilt overall, but without really looking into the designs inside the pommel disc. Your attention to this detail has been well established in that you have always included that key view in the examples in your collection, now gratefully published.

While we have been discussing the floral motif of the hilts, it seems that the inside of the pommel discs are typically a radiating theme in their circular shape. These examples show of course a solar theme, and given that they are of Rajasthan provenance, naturally this suggests Rajput examples.

The Rajput clans are incredibly complex, however rudimentarily they are of three basic lineages.
1. Suryavanshi: The solar, from Surya, Hindu god of the sun.
2.Chandravanshi: The lunar, from Chandra, god of the moon
3.Agnivanshi: The fire, from Agni, god of fire.

Salumbar is in the Udaipur District of Rajasthan, and primarily of the
Chundawat clan.

Ulwar was a princely state with primarily Naruka Rajputs.

While not being entirely clear on which of the three lineages these clans may be ascribed to, by the concept of the solar type motif in the discs, that of the first lineage would be implied.

So the questions would be;
Would the solar theme of suns rays be indicative of these Rajput clans?

How would the radiating rays of the solar theme be differentiated from the radiating design of flames (fire lineage)?

Are there lunar themed discs? Would these have crescents or varying moon phases?

Leaving the Rajput orientation, how would pommel discs of other regions, other groups, be decorated, and what symbolism might we find in those cases?

In the case of solar representation for example, as here, there are more numerous smaller shorter 'rays' and others longer and less in number.
Would this signify different clans of the same lineage, or might this simply be aesthetic representation of same symbolism in accord with regional or clan preference?

A lot of questions, but as the pommel discs seem to not necessarily follow the same theme as the floral motif (or perhaps some do) it would seem that we need to look into the wider scope of these pommel disc decorations.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,
You ask a lot of interesting questions, whish I cant answer, but most of the answers would be - maybe, could be, possible, I don know - I will however try to answer some of the questions.
Here you can see the Sun born, Moon born and the Fire born clans.

http://www.jairajputana.com/list-of-rajput-clans-and-vansh.html

There is something of which you should be aware, and that is that some of the clans mentioned are sub clans of other clans mantioned. Like the Chundawat clan is a sub clan of the Sisodia clan of Mewar - see catalogue pp. 204-205.

You ask what the top of the disc from a fire born clan would look like, I am not sure, but I have seen a sun where the rays looked like flames, so I suppose that is what they could/would look like.

To research this subject would be a lot of work, and quite complicated as a close knowledge of the clans involved, and of their history, would be needed. To this comes the sub clans, sub sub clans and so on.

What about the disc tops with a flower with a different number of petals, or the disc tops with nothing at all?

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly Jens, and the reason I posed this barrage of questions is to set out the kinds of questions that we ,meaning not only us, but any serious student of arms and collector of Indian weaponry, should be asking.

In my post, and aware of the complexity of the Rajput clan system, I noted the three primary lineages, avoiding trying to catalog the many sub clans at this point. Here in trying to explain the nature of the Rajput clans, the goal was to illustrate that these symbols of the primary lineages may account for at least some of the themes in the pommel discs.

Here is where the complications begin, and only the steadfast researcher will achieve gainful advances as they probe further into these matters. It is far from an easy task, as you and I know, as we are aware of how tenacious such study must be, and the frustration and disappointments which thwart it seems too many hopeful leads.
We can only hope that a new breed of researchers are among the new collectors and students of Indian history, and armed with the ever advancing technology, can carry the efforts of the 'old guard', to the new vistas we have ever hoped to achieve.

Even resolving a few of the Rajput symbolism conundrums will hopefully give us better perspective on perhaps resolving the questions toward those motifs in other contexts outside the Rajput spectrum. For example, as you note, the floral character in some where the number of petals shown (like the number of rays in solar or flames in fire) carry some esoteric meaning.

When is a solar ray actually a flame? aren't the 'rays' of sun actually flames from the cosmic ball of fire we know as the sun?
Examining these seemingly aesthetic decorations and motifs in these perspectives becomes a philosophical and many manners of extremely subjective thought, far too complex for most students or collectors.

However to really appreciate a weapon, to understand its true history, we need to try to understand those who had them, who decorated them, and what these things meant to them. The swords and weapons were in many ways the icons of the very being of those who owned them.

That is what the study of arms is all about, and that of the Indian arms is not only some of the most colorful and fascinating, but profoundly challenging that any serious student of arms may encounter.
You have studied and worked tenaciously at this for many decades of your life, and given us all the sound footing and key benchmarks needed to continue the quest . .......for us, and others who will join.....onward!!!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,
I think, maybe I even believe, that the decoration at the top of the disc ought to give more meaning than the decoration at the hilt itself, as this decoration is more likely to follow the fashion than the decoration at the top.
All over the world the early people has their tribe markings on their weapons, like the American Indians, so why would the Indians of India not follow the same thread?
When it comes to research these things, it would be a very good thing not to forget the architecture and the jewellery, as a lot of things starts here, and is then transfirmed to the weapons
One like Markel constantly returns to the poppy used for decoration, so the four pateled flower used on the disc, could it be a poppy?

[Jim McDougall]

Very good points Jens.
In books and research I have found that even prehistoric man marked and embellished his weapons, as these were not only sacred and valuable, but vital to his very life. These marks were of course most often imbuements of power and strength, much as with the animist totems the people, later tribes, would adopt.

Man was tribal long before civilization, but as this developed, along with religions and other civil organizations formed, these totemic symbols and values became inherent in more permanent things such as architecture.

We know that most Indian weapons have been structured in varied degree after architectural elements, with those of temples and religious structures such as virigals and stupas being the literal foundation for such designs .
As Robert Elgood well showed in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", the weapons were often considered to be in essence de facto temples which would actually be visited or even inhabited by the gods and goddesses in the pantheons.

Jewellery was in effect much the same, with key religious symbolism which would provide individuals with talismanic and amuletic protection as well as invocational features to the Faith of the wearer.

These facts emphasize that the decorative features and motif displayed in the iconography and designs in both religious architecture and jewellery may hold valuable clues toward understanding the decoration in these arms.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

[Jim McDougall]

Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

Well there you have it !!:) yet another avenue for researching these weapons. Too many collectors think that in order to study Indian arms (or any ethnographic forms for that matter) the answers will be in neatly categorized chapters with each type pictured and classified and that the decoration is from such and such place etc.
It is in a broad study of material culture, art and crafts, religion, traditions, coins, textiles etc. that the real answers are found.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I do realise that not many collectors are prepated to start to research in this way - although this is the way to do it, and when we are at it, lets add religion.
This makes me say, that the ones who asks from where is this, or how old is it, should try to think of, how many hours it has taken for the one who answers, to get to the right answer.
I do know that collectors have different levels of interest, in how far they will go researching their weapons - but try to appresiate the answers from the ones who did the reaesrch.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It is indeed vital to remove the blinkers on this revolving and evolving subject. I also think that the answers may not necessarily suddenly appear rather that someone down the line may take up the challenge based on the research we have here, thus, answers or theories may arise thereafter.

For sure there are shadowy linkages across the spectrum on Religion, history, architecture, metalworking techniques, floral and geometric design, textiles, ceramics, artwork, coins, jewellery, calligraphy, arms and armour, tribal Hindu and Moghul style...secret and talismanic mystical involvement, traditions and probably 10 other associated ideas...at least!

Whilst the subject has a deep melting pot the spin-off is in Indian arms and armour generally; so that having entered the debate researchers will expand their knowledge considerably by getting involved moreover access to this knowledge base is a gateway into other regions weaponry so closely linked both ways when considering Ethnographic Arms and Armour..

[Jim McDougall]

Amen Jens!!!
I think this is one of the reasons that the study of ethnographic weaponry SHOULD be included in the academic study of that as well as anthropology, archaeology and many of the humanities. They are iconic in reflecting so much history of the cultures and all manner of groups which they are from.

I know that in the many years I have studied the weapons, I have learned so much on so many aspects of these cultures that technically are not at all directly related to the arms themselves. It is a dynamically broad picture that actually has few bounds and perpetually grows as more is learned.
Ibrahiim, you too have followed this path, and its great to learn together as we all seek more answers in these many diverse areas.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see http://www.christies.com/features/Bloodthirsty-Sword-5843-1.aspx where the continued demolition of AURANGZEB remaining family members is explained. :shrug:


See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id=c8PJFLeURhsC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=sword+decoration+of+different+Mughal+tribes&source=bl&ots=1-3_6-34rn&sig=g932JMOq0qtiu994-Eg4j4eC4Qw&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=sword%20decoration%20of%20different%20Mughal%20t ribes&f=false Which describes Indian Culture and decoration across a wide spectrum of forms.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for the links Ibrahiim.
One should be aware of, that flowers shown on hilts are seldom what they really looks like. The artists were not botanists, and so they often made the flowers the way which fitted them best.
The khanjarli hilt below asows this quite clearly. The flowers are supposed to be of the same kind, but the number of petals are quite different, 7, 8, 9 and 8.
On some hilts the flowers shown are made in detail, but in most cases this is not so.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well noted of course Jens, and the question of the intent behind the artisan's depiction of flowers and botanical themes can only be speculated.

It is often argued that in such creations, shapes and devices in either the decoration or fashioning of design elements are simply aesthetic. However, in many circumstances where there are mystical, religious, or other situations at hand we must consider the possibility of otherwise.

As we look at the flowers on this khanjhari, which are noted to have varying numbers of petals, it is tempting to consider that perhaps gemetria with mystical or magical properties could be in play.
It would seem that the preparation of a simple petaled flower in silver in a group would be easier if all the same. With the case that there are two (2) of the eight petaled flower, could this be a gemetric or magic number as with the 1414 and 1441 etc on European blades?

Though perhaps a specious exercise, and quite possibly a simple matter of aesthetics or coincidence as so often insisted, the idea is interesting if not nearly compelling.

As with anything artistic, there are always nuances, and in cases flowers may have been portrayed symbolically in a metaphoric sense. Also, as I believe Markel noted, the accuracy and detail of many floral themes degenerated along with the decay of the Mughal Empire, and as artisans failed to pass on their skills in generations following.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I understand that precise botanical studies of flora were passed on or sought by the Mughal painters so that greater accuracy could be attained ...There are many examples of inaccuracies in design and colour and it was only when companies such as EIC became involved that true scientific drawings could be referred to...as outlined at #63 above viz;

Quote."What seems odd is that the zenith of floral paintings seems to be at the time Dara Shiko was inspired to have artists view flowers especially vases filled with blosoms...and more weirdly influenced by European (EIC) styles which were copied in an attempt to show more realism in Moghul art.

The prime reasoning behind accepting into Moghul Art the European exactness of botanical studies in floral form was that it enabled greater accuracy in colours and in lifelike portrayals of subject matter". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I will add that ~In respect of the above post ~For the original document by JP Losty see http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/asian-and-african/2014/03/mughal-flower-studies-and-their-european-inspiration.html

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim, the thing about floral decoration is not only about the floral decoration about the time of Dara Shiko (1615-1659). THe floral decoration was used centuries before and after.
Some years ago I had a PM discussion with a member on this forum. The thing was, that he was a botanic, and he did not recognise the different flowers, but being a scientist, he would, of course, want more prof than shown on most weapons, and I respect him for this.
More artistic writers/scholars are freer in their judgement which flowers are shown on the weapons, but they also warn that the number of petals should not always be taken too serious.
So this leaves the rest of us guessing, but it is sure that the poppy flower was very popular, and so was the sun flower in the south.

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think Hindu Arms and Ritual by Robert Elgood chapter 13 explains a lot of what we are discussing.

[Jim McDougall]

Chapter 13 of "Hindu Arms and Armour" (Robert Elgood, 2004) does attend to certain aspects of the flower, and notably botanical symbolism in various instances in Indian tradition and culture. Here he makes a compelling comment which specifies 'plants', however in the context of the narrative notes, " ...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value". This would seem to imply that a flower would be afforded the same circumstance.

The convention of flowers as a leitmotif for opposing armies and signifying various situations toward battle, victory and other symbolic use seems to have deep history beyond India alone. Elgood does note that the Tamils in antiquity did use flowers as dynastic symbols (p.130) but these were later replaced.
As the book concerns Hindu tradition and culture of course he tends to many aspects of the very botanical nature of their symbolism in material culture and in ritual. One flower in particular that seems to be broadly depicted and used in Hindu culture is the lotus (the red flower of the goddess Kali ). The 'generative' aspect of the bud of the lotus is often depicted as well, such as on the pommel of many tulwars.

Turning to the depiction of flowers on the weapons, I looked into Pant (1980) who has the chapter on 'decoration'. The entire text is focused on technique in application, metalwork, enameling, jewels and styling, but like other references to the sumptuous Mughal hilts....the only specification is the type of jewels used....a flower is simply described....'flower'.

Other references describing the decoration and motif on hilts are much the same, and even in Elgood concerning the red flower symbol of Kali (op. cit. p.131) what is described is the 'red lotus stone' of the goddess..a ruby.

In reading through most of the descriptions of the Mughal emperors, there seems to have been a considerable degree of tolerance, if not even fascination with, aspects of other religions and cultures. The properties and symbolisms associated were in varying degrees filtered into Mughal arts.

It does seem however, most of the discussion of these situations, the attention is toward the material culture of artwork and various objects, with very little direction toward application on weapons. In the literature on arms, it is as if the author observing the examples considers that the characteristically nuanced or subtle depictions of flowers or plants are not relevant to the character or theme of the weapon.

Robert Elgood and Stephen Markel have offered us the most insight and best foothold into this esoteric topic, but it will take remarkable tenacity and serious study to advance. This has been the reason for this thread and others related, and hopefully others reading who have background in the study of Indian art and culture might join with their thoughts and observations.
Meanwhile other collectors may bring in examples for examination and discussion, just as Jens has always done with his amazing collection items.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, the thing about floral decoration is not only about the floral decoration about the time of Dara Shiko (1615-1659). THe floral decoration was used centuries before and after.
Some years ago I had a PM discussion with a member on this forum. The thing was, that he was a botanic, and he did not recognise the different flowers, but being a scientist, he would, of course, want more prof than shown on most weapons, and I respect him for this.
More artistic writers/scholars are freer in their judgement which flowers are shown on the weapons, but they also warn that the number of petals should not always be taken too serious.
So this leaves the rest of us guessing, but it is sure that the poppy flower was very popular, and so was the sun flower in the south.


Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I pause deliberately on the scope of time spanned by the Dareo Shikoh period since it offers the study of a certain spike in floral artwork and has an intriguing air to it surrounded by treachery and subterfuge so typical in the Machiavellian discourse inside the Mughal ruling family which would eventually end in disaster for the young prince who came very close to fusing together two great religions through his ideas on floral artwork/talsimanic expression etc.

In terms of the style we recognise as floral Indian work it is clear that the fashion ebbed and flowed across the period and according to various documents viz;

Quote''The floral and plant motifs predominate in the decorative repertoire of Mughal India. The combination of the naturalistic yet subtly stylized treatment of Mughal flowers, together with their balanced and symmetrical arrangement, is emblematic of Mughal taste in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, when the floral motif became a leitmotiv that permeated all the arts of the court (textiles and decorative arts, arts of the book) and even architecture. This fascination with the floral motif can be traced back to the reign of the Emperor Jahangir. It originated during a journey made by Jahangir in 1620 to Kashmir, a country where the emperor was enchanted by the variety and profusion of the flowers which grew there, and which he was subsequently wont to describe as “a garden where spring reigns eternally”. During this trip the monarch was accompanied by one of the great masters of the imperial atelier of painting, the animal painter Ustâd Mansûr Nâdir al’Asr, who, at the request of the sovereign, executed more than a hundred flower studies, of which only three precious examples still survive.

This poetic delight in the exuberant blossoming flowers of Kashmir was reinforced by the discovery of European herbals brought to the Mughal court by Jesuit missionaries and agents of the East India Company''.Unquote.

For interest I added the final paragraph above to encompass botanical detail fed into the arena by The EIC...

It would therefor seem that although Indian work may have contained a broad spectrum of floral content down the ages that in fact these floral peaks and troughs included concentrated periods where the fashion was exaggerated no more so perhaps than in the Daro Shikoh time frame. I point to the 1630s as a key time frame when such influence blossomed viz;

Quote"Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/ '' Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim, what we have discussed so far are the decorations inlaid or in koftgari, but there are others - the steel cut ones, and they go back far longer.
At the same time I am not so sure, that the disc decoration and the hilt decoration are connected, they could be, but I have my doubt, as to me the disc decoration seems not to change in the same way as the hilt decoration does - after fashion.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, what we have discussed so far are the decorations inlaid or in koftgari, but there are others - the steel cut ones, and they go back far longer.
At the same time I am not so sure, that the disc decoration and the hilt decoration are connected, they could be, but I have my doubt, as to me the disc decoration seems not to change in the same way as the hilt decoration does - after fashion.


I have done a comparison on this thread looking at both hilt and disc pommels and find that most are of the same decorative form whereas a few are not of the same style. I conclude therefor that the two areas of decoration must be linked with a few exceptions.. Page 1 of this thread has many that are clearly linked. The pommel however does lend itself to a cyclic style simply because it is round thus sunburst form is common. I wondered if the general form of the pommel was related to the name Tulvar meaning flower and suggest that it looks similar to a poppy.

[kronckew]

somewhat more mundane mughal style bronze grip on one of my swords with cast in floral decor.

[Jim McDougall]

Mundane?? Very nice entry Wayne!
This looks very much Mysori, with the tiger head.

[Mercenary]

Some pictures:

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for the pictures.
I think the research should include other decorated things, than weapons only, as many of these things have been studied and researched far more than the weapons have.
I do realise that many collectors collect weapons, buy weapon books and study then, and that is that. For the ones who wants to go farther, studying other art items can be of a very big help.

[Jim McDougall]

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendencies of a period".
Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber
"Jahrbuch des Kunsthistorischen"
Museums in Wien 1937-1955
As cited in p.73, "Imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor
from the State of Styria"
Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992

Q.E.D.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I thought I had dug up an excellent reference when I stumbled upon the book by Amina Okada ~ "Imperial Mughal Painters" however it contained only half a dozen lightweight references somewhat unrelated to the central theme I have worked into this thread relating to Daro Shikoh...I did however rumble into one fact that Daro's son was captured by the forces of Aurangazeb and imprisoned whereupon he was slowly poisoned to death by poppies being soaked in water with which he had to drink...
Another powerful flower pictorially was the Lilly shown below with Shah Jehan along with a Firangi straight sword .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Perhaps a glance at similar decorative style to floral may indicate a sister to floral technique ~ That of sunburst ...Please see http://shastardhari.com/blog/ for an excellent rendition of the intricate sunburst design to certain tribal sword pommels. Quote" Sunburst symbology is often seen on Indian swords, shields and battle standards, it represents the ‘Sooraj Bansi’ or the Sun Dynasty of the Vedic warrior god Rama Avtar, the embodiment of the Kshatriya warrior." Unquote.

Shown below; Sunburst pommel designs.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention.
It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so.
I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it?
As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention.
It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so.
I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it?
As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.


I have to agree ..I was a bit despondent having ploughed through the entire works but the support work on Shah Jehan and on the painter fraternity of the Mughals was interesting.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim, researching means reading a lot, and a lot is of no 'interest', but all the same one learns something, and remembers most of it - hopefully:-).
The suns shown on the discs look quite different, and have a different number of rays, but I have not yet started to look into this part.

[Jim McDougall]

Research indeed is reading a lot for many, or for some, like myself, a great deal of 'browsing', and many findings are through pure serendipity. While using systematic approach in a networking type manner in order to reach key areas where context might hold clues or important data, sometimes those details are found in completely unrelated searches.

In some of the decoration and motif in Indian arms there do seem to be variations in the number of elements in images portrayed such as petals, or rays in the case of solar representation. However as far as I know, there has not been proof found that numeric instance is significant as far as certain symbolism etc. It is tempting to consider that there is such significance imbued, but aesthetics become a strong possibility as well. Some such things we may never know as the work changed in imitation over generations and what the original artisan intended is unknown.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There is of course another part to the equation; In respect of the attempted fusion in artwork and Islamic script and in the general subject of the Mystic involvement Daro Sikoh was attempting in bringing together the two religions of Hinduism and Islam there is plenty to be concerned about. Aurangzeb set out to annihilate the entire family of Daro Shikoh but not content with that destruction he ordered his artists to seek out and obliterate the records...Paintings were removed and destroyed; entire or huge parts of complete portfolios vanished. Where Islamic script was included it was painted out in gold paint. The records were smudged and history was given another spin contorting all that had transpired. What we are left with are remnants of the true story and it is for this reason that authors have so little to report...because it has been changed stolen and destroyed. That is the real reason why it is so difficult to fathom...

On a lighter note simple artwork of the Hindu style can be found in geometric subject matter in many Indian households for example in the cyclic form below...

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim, what I dont quite understand, is why you all the time write about Dara Sikoh and not about Jahangir - who was the one who started the interest about the flowers?

[Jim McDougall]

If I am understanding correctly, there was concern about the author of the linked article on teghas and examples of pommel discs bearing solar themes, in that his comments and observations were not supported by references and cites. It seems to me that in many writings on Indian arms, particularly those written from more of a traditional and theological posture by someone indoctrinated in the religion(s) being described, and as far as toward the sword, such academically oriented references are often not observed.

The original theme of this thread has been toward the study of the use of floral motif in tulwar motif, and whether certain symbolism might be present accordingly. The digression to certain astral themes in pommel discs has entered the discussion as some might instead have floral themes en suite with the hilt overall , and the variations are observed as such. We were looking for symbolic convention with such astral themes much in the same manner as floral motif.

While the floral interest used in motif and decoration may have begun early in the Mughal dynasties, it seems that the potential for closer examination into symbolism within these artistic creations was prevalently noted in the album of Dara Shikoh. Though he was not the first Mughal to lean toward syncretic relations between other religions and Islam, he more openly highlighted European influences in art and botanicals. His deep beliefs in mysticism in Sufi as well as perhaps degree of adaption of European occult beliefs filtered through their herbals, volumes of these ideologies, led to his ultimate demise as a heretic.

Those dynamic conditions are perhaps a leading situation as offering some clues toward the use of floral motif in Mughal art and weapons motif, at least in that particular period. The other circumstances with Jahangir it seems were more aligned with dynastic leitmotif and a less dimensional content, while the Dara Shikoh period offers other more intriguing possibilities.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, what I dont quite understand, is why you all the time write about Dara Sikoh and not about Jahangir - who was the one who started the interest about the flowers?



Salaams Jenns, Thank you for your post. As I see it Jehangir and for that matter Shah Jehan have fairly flat, concise and well recorded histories on the subject, however, virtually the entire record of Dara-Shikoh has been manipulated and changed beyond recognition even down to almost entire portfolios of art works that have mysteriously vanished and others that have been erased even to the extent of having been painted out with gold paint (in the case of those artworks containing Islamic script).

Dara Shikoh and Aurangzeb went to war over this clash which ended disastrously when Aurangzeb won and had Dara-Shikoh tried tortured and executed for heresy... and many of the rest of his family persecuted and murdered. Is it therefor any wonder that this aspect grabs attention?

Dara was engaged much of the time with mystics and for a time he became fascinated in merging Islam and Hinduism together...It is the critical period in the mid 1600 s that inspires my attention at exactly the pivotal point that he fell foul of the Machiavellian tactics of his brother Aurangzeb. It can only be left to the imagination what may have transpired had he won against Aurangzeb and how the whole face of decoration not to mention The Mughal Empire and India would have altered...would it not?

Compared to the earthquake in geo-political terms that this event may have precipitated the other actors have a bland uneventful place in history, thus, it is this aspect that I focus in on.. I hope this does not deter anyone examining Shah Jehan or Jehangir's input into aspects of floral design in this era.

In studying The Mughals, Dara Shikoh is essential reading and although the subterfuge planned by Aurangzeb was almost entirely successful I think the more interesting account has yet to be penned...It was he who tried in fuse together floral Hindu art with the geometry of Islamic script. He was trying to unite the two concepts together and with the Mystics he almost did it...and would have performed the incredible feat of uniting two languages to boot...

It is for these reasons that I place into the discussion the Dara-Shikoh dilemma and posit that this contains the real sense in the debate over floral design which shrouds the more important Machiavellian business of The Mughal Empire.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.