Pata sword with European blade [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Jim McDougall

29th July 2016, 07:31 PM

S.

I am inclined to think this blade is 'European' as well. I would note here that while Portuguese colonization was predominant early, there are not that many surviving blades from those early sources in India (that I know of). Naturally there are some examples but the more profound entries seem to have been primarily German or Styrian made blades, which became well known by 17th century.

The earliest Portuguese blades were likely some of the rapier blades which were fitted to khandas with basket hilts (firangi) , in fact it is said that the word firangi actually specified Portuguese. Actually it was far more generic, as in variation it occurs in other languages meaning 'foreign or Frankish(?)'.

The British blades were mostly scorned by Indian merchants, and they were not prevalent anyway, as the relatively limited numbers of British makers were not inclined to export. Most blades were actually German, filtered through English commerce.

Here I would note this blade, which by fullering and general blade character does (to me) seem European, and the squared cartouche triptych with four leaf devices reminds me of such patterns seen in North African hilt motif but occasionally on blades. It seems they are seen on Saharan (Tuareg) hilts as well as possibly on some kaskara.
While it is tempting to see these squares as 'Maltese crosses', they also are seen as four leaf patterns. Most such devices seem to represent the four cardinal directions in native symbolism.

There was an apparent degree of cross pollination of African blades to India, and less often some European blades from India into Africa. The Red Sea trade machine accounts for this in my opinion.
I have seen tulwar hilts with blades having profuse thuluth obviously from Mahdist period kaskara .....and I had a pata which had a kaskara blade with the cosmologic motif and central triple fullers.

Conversely, I have seen kaskara with single edged Italian blades with old markings suggesting probably from firangi sources in India.

Just my thoughts.

Jim McDougall

29th July 2016, 07:36 PM

mariusgmioc

29th July 2016, 08:18 PM

Just saw Marius' post. In my view this is likely a kaskara blade as well, the center fuller resembles many European blades (mostly schiavona types) which found their way into North African entrepots.
It is hard to tell as the upper part of the fuller is obscured by the blade bolster. Most 'firangi' in khanda or pata it seems did not have these single central fullers.

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

:shrug:

Kubur

29th July 2016, 09:47 PM

Very interesting thoughts. Thank you!

However, I doubt that my blade is European because it is more flexible/elastic than any European blades I have seen. It also appears to be somehow thinner. Yet it keeps shape extremely well like it is a big leaf spring.

I wonder how flexible is Kubur's blade?!

:shrug:

Kubur's blade is not very flexible (like Kubur in general)
:-)
Like Jim I can see some Maltese crosses... but guys you have to give me something...I can't believe that no one on this fabulous forum can trace the origin of this blade...
Thanks to all past and future

mariusgmioc

29th July 2016, 11:00 PM

Sorry for not being able to say something more constructive, but those are definitely not Maltese crosses (not even very abstract ones).

I wonder why cannot the blade be plainly Indian?

Maybe we should duplicate this discussion on the Ethnographic Weapons forum.

:shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

30th July 2016, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by estcrh
If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.

"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=i...epage&q&f=false

Jim McDougall

30th July 2016, 02:53 AM

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan. These devices in repeated square cartouches are not a motif I have ever seen on European blades, but do seem like they are from Africa, again emphasizing the four leaf flower.

I described that African blades are known to appear in instances in Indian swords, and these are likely to have transmitted via Red Sea trade.

As far as I have ever seen, these blades with central fuller were indeed a form sometimes made in Sudanese regions in the latter 19th century, and these were copied from Solingen blades of this form by Clauberg and Peres for two examples.

They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

mariusgmioc

30th July 2016, 09:30 AM

Another thought would be to post also in the European section since you are asking about the European blade.

That's where it was originally posted.
:)

Kubur

30th July 2016, 10:42 AM

Kubur, I am sorry I cannot adequately word my posts better. I thought I had described these devices occurring in African swords both in the Sahara and Sudan.
They did not made in India, which is why khanda and pata often are more inclined to have imported (including African) blades .

Oh I see, thank you Jim. I was thinking that you was talking only about the one posted by Marius. And i have to admit that this blade has some strong similarities with kaskara. Maybe my photos are not good enough, but my blade has nothing to do with local African blades. Plus I never saw any good/ outstanding localy manufactured African blades... Do you really think that Indians were desperate enough to import bad African blades, I have some serious doubt... I take on board the possibility that europeans blades came to India via Africa, by Red sea trade or most likely by Indian ocean trade. I still hope to have other comments...

mariusgmioc

30th July 2016, 12:40 PM

Oh I see, thank you Jim. I was thinking that you was talking only about the one posted by Marius. And i have to admit that this blade has some strong similarities with kaskara. Maybe my photos are not good enough, but my blade has nothing to do with local African blades. Plus I never saw any good/ outstanding localy manufactured African blades... Do you really think that Indians were desperate enough to import bad African blades, I have some serious doubt... I take on board the possibility that europeans blades came to India via Africa, by Red sea trade or most likely by Indian ocean trade. I still hope to have other comments...

I agree with you here. I don't think your blade is of African origin because it is too big and too well made... BUT...
... it is quite possible that the engravings were of African origin, later added (although I am not so sure they cannot be of Indian origin).

Also with regards to my blade, it definitely is not plausible that a blade with such excellent mechanical properties (equivalent to modern highly alloyed spring steel) could have been forged anywhere in Africa.

Jens Nordlunde

30th July 2016, 01:41 PM

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Maybe the blade is European, but I am not convinced, as I think there are pointers towards India. It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Jim McDougall

30th July 2016, 06:48 PM

EXACTLY!!!
I must point out that I did not mean to suggest that Indians were in any way desperate for blades. They were of course fully capable and skilled in producing excellent blades. The reason blades were brought in was due to the colonial circumstances, trade and innovative merchants. Blades which were imported from Europe sometimes including a few British ones here and there, were then used by local artisans in India in remounting local hilts.

These devices of the four petal flower type I have been desperately trying to convey are on African hilts and it seems blades, but I have to find the examples. Please disregard my suggestions on the cross pollination of European/African blades into India as that suggestion does not seem to meet the criteria here. Despite the fact that known African blades are known to have been found on Indian hilts, one cannot discount the possibility that creative arms dealers might have fashioned these. I have had the pata with kaskara type blade for over 40 years. Also in that time period as per Mr. Oakeshott, many kaskara blades were taken from their hilts in England (brought in from Sudanese campaigns) and put in sometimes authentic medieval guards.
I cannot imagine how some of these blades in England might have found their way to India! :)
Indeed hopefully someone with more knowledge will respond.

I would point out however that the bladesmiths in Africa should not be underestimated. In the latter 19th century and well into 20th, Sudanese artisans used steel from lorry springs and other stock in industrial lots in making blades and other arms components.

Jim McDougall

30th July 2016, 07:22 PM

Hello Fernando,

May I know why are you asking?

I also have a similar Patah but with a different blade that is quite flexible (much more flexible than any of the other blades I have).

While I am by no means very knowledgeable on this subject, I agree with you that the decorations on the ricasso don't look European.

Just to be more specific Marius.
This pata, as I noted, has a central fuller which is very much like European blades, most notably schiavona, which often were Solingen made. These central fuller blades were sometimes known to be of African production, however most often imported into Sudan in 1870s-80s (Suakin was one Red Sea entrepot). Peres and Clauberg were noted makers that come to mind. If this blade is not so marked it might be a blank from Solingen.

It is not Indian made .....question, why would the langet/bolster be riveted into the fuller? I am under the impression this might compromise the blade if drilled through. Perhaps that is why these central fuller blades might not be chosen by Indian armourer? or ?

Just asking for your valued opinion, and trying to offer helpful suggestions pending more useful responses.

Kubur

30th July 2016, 11:25 PM

Search for "Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries" on Google, go to the MET's homepage, and you can download the book (I think) as a PDF file.

Thank you all for the reference! and the link!

It could also be European and decorated later in India - it is not easy to tell from a picture.

Why not, but the decoration is going right under the rivets and the pata.

Kubur

30th July 2016, 11:33 PM

These devices of the four petal flower type I have been desperately trying to convey are on African hilts and it seems blades, but I have to find the examples.

I see what you mean, like the motives on the Tabouka cross hilts / guards for example...
Please, see also the recent book of Kinman page 90, there is a blade with the same crosses/flowers and crenellations...Solingen end of 16th c.

Also in that time period as per Mr. Oakeshott, many kaskara blades were taken from their hilts in England (brought in from Sudanese campaigns) and put in sometimes authentic medieval guards.
I cannot imagine how some of these blades in England might have found their way to India! :)

Ah this is something logic, the British have all what they need to do fakes with original pieces from their colonial empires... and it will explain perfectly the pata guards with kaskara blades...

mariusgmioc

31st July 2016, 10:47 AM

Just to be more specific Marius.
This pata, as I noted, has a central fuller which is very much like European blades, most notably schiavona, which often were Solingen made. These central fuller blades were sometimes known to be of African production, however most often imported into Sudan in 1870s-80s (Suakin was one Red Sea entrepot). Peres and Clauberg were noted makers that come to mind. If this blade is not so marked it might be a blank from Solingen.

It is not Indian made .....question, why would the langet/bolster be riveted into the fuller? I am under the impression this might compromise the blade if drilled through. Perhaps that is why these central fuller blades might not be chosen by Indian armourer? or ?

Just asking for your valued opinion, and trying to offer helpful suggestions pending more useful responses.

Thank you Jim for your thoughts!

My blade can definitely be of European origin as European bladesmiths definitely had the knowledge to produce blades with such properties.

But then, if the blade was made in Europe, for what type of sword was it made because it would be too thin and elastic for any type of European sword I know?! It would only be suitable for an Indian Pata, that employs a very particular fighting style where a very elastic blade is required.
:shrug:

PS: Here is a link to an older thread about a Pata with a blade very similar to mine, and apparently equally elastic:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

fernando

31st July 2016, 12:15 PM

We can see that the decoration of Kubur's blade goes well into the bolsters. Could it be that the blade was dismounted to have the decoration made or was already decorated before mounting ?
The pronounced central fuller was alredy there from the beginning ... no doubt. Could it be that the side grooves were only made together with the ricasso decoration ?
Is it my impression or the Indian blades in patas are the ones that are flexible and not the European ones; starting by considering that European blades were made for 'normal' swords and not necessarily a product expressly developed for patas.
We hear in the grape vines that blades in patas are largely of European origin; couldn't this be a matter of fashion or acquired culture rather than a matter of necessity ... or quality ?

mariusgmioc

31st July 2016, 12:25 PM

Is it my impression or the Indian blades in patas are the ones that are flexible and not the European ones; starting by considering that European blades were made for 'normal' swords and not necessarily a product expressly developed for patas.
We hear in the grape vines that blades in patas are largely of European origin; couldn't this be a matter of fashion or acquired culture rather than a matter of necessity ... or quality ?

Exactly my point!

In the photo below, you can see how thin the blade is, which is very unlike any European blade I know.

The same goes for the Pata in the link I provided above. Thin, very elastic blade, most likely unsuitable for any other sword but specifically suited for the fighting style with the Pata, where ample circular blows are delivered, and where you don't want the blade to be stopped abruptly even when hitting a shield, as such an abrupt stop may throw you off-guard and even break your arm.

mariusgmioc

31st July 2016, 12:56 PM

My speculation is that many Pata were indeed fitted with European blades, but even more so were fitted with locally made Indian blades that sometimes imitated the European design.

The fighting style with the Pata involves ample circular movements (of the whole arm and body) that require particularly flexible blades. A Pata swordsman will practically spin around waving the blade in circular moves and create a wide perimeter around him where any opponent would be at risk of being struck. If the blade is not flexible enough, a shield or even a stick can not only block the blow, but can easily throw the wielder off-balance or even break his arm. Therefore, the blade must necessarily be very elastic so it can bounce off any rigid parrying device and dissipate the shock of the parry.

While some European blades may be elastic just about enough to provide some functionality to the Pata, most of them were way too rigid to be of practical use in a Pata mount.

And I particularly doubt that any European swordsmith would bother to produce dedicated Pata blades for export to India, since even in India Pata wasn't very widely used, and since India itself didn't see such a dramatic shortage of native capable swordsmiths.

I am attaching some photos of a Pata I have, where one can easily see how thin the blade is (last photo).

Also at the link below, you can see a Pata with a very similar, very thin and elastic blade.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=92078

Jens Nordlunde

31st July 2016, 01:50 PM

mariusgmioc

31st July 2016, 02:40 PM

I have two pata's and both have very flexible blades. The chiselled one is from south India 16th to arely 17th century, and the other one has a gauntlet of wootz and is from north India 17th to early 18th century.

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

fernando

31st July 2016, 03:23 PM

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.

Jens Nordlunde

31st July 2016, 03:26 PM

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?

.In which way do you mean?

fernando

31st July 2016, 03:37 PM

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

fernando

31st July 2016, 03:40 PM

In which way do you mean?
I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

Kubur

31st July 2016, 03:54 PM

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?
.

Look in Kinman page 28, orb and cross, Germany middle of 16th c. could be used later...

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

Yes you are right to merge the threads. Thanks

Jens Nordlunde

31st July 2016, 03:54 PM

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

Jens Nordlunde

31st July 2016, 04:19 PM

Kubur,
One of the things which makes me say that the blade could be Indian is, that in one of the squares the four petal flower looks like the way they are shown in India, and it could be a Ixora coccinea (Elgood 2004).

mariusgmioc

31st July 2016, 05:32 PM

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

Pattern welded...
very flexible (namely suited exclusively for a Pata)...

I am convinced this would be a classic example of an Indian made blade attempting to imitate the European ones.
:cool:

Jens Nordlunde

31st July 2016, 09:22 PM

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

Jim McDougall

1st August 2016, 01:38 AM

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

I would retract my note earlier that these central fuller blades did not often appear on pata, as it would appear that they did, in the multitude of variations and possibilities with imported blades over such a long time.

The cross and orb mark is of course not a makers mark, but a device used in general motif of European blades, usually enclosing words or phrases etc. but later simply used singly on occasion in symbolic or quality sense.
On Jens' sword, it appears to terminate such an inscriptive panel now covered by the bolster. This corresponds to the period he describes and European.

While widely copied, usually by native artisans, the cross and orb was primarily German and N. European . It was used from 16th-18th c.

Kubur, good note from Staffan's excellent book!!!on the cross and orb, profusely used in many cases of wide range.
Also, excellent observation on p90 of Kinman, this Wirsberg blade has an inscribed panel which has what may be construed as such a floral device, however this 8 leaf example is what is often regarded as a 'paternoster' associated symbol in N. Europe (Netherlands) and on German blades for those markets. The 'crennelations' are compelling, and further suggestion of the kinds of motif from such blades being imitated by native artisans.

In Egerton (1884), numerous examples, mostly pata or other 'long' swords, (#57, 61,62,63) with the blades elaborated as 'very flexible' and European; elastic steel of European workmanship; and European with flexible steel.

Elgood (2004) describes on p,202
" Tory describes in 1612 how the India swords are very sharp but for want of skill in those that temper them, will break rather than bend . "
He notes the demand for European swords, and Shah Jehan preferring 'Alemaine' (German) blades, but these in the north was referring to shamshirs or sabres,

"...long 'FIRANGI' blades became a status symbol in the 17th c. and English swords which bow and become straight again sold at high prices. In the 1660s Thevenot remarks that the swords made by the Indians are very brittle and that good ones are brought from England'.

Here I would note that in a number of these cases, the blades described are notably curved and may refer to wootz shamshir blades, which if not properly produced with the key ore from sources in India containing the mineral impurities required for the nanostructure will indeed be brittle.
British impairment of the wootz industry in the 19th c. case in point.

The demand for imported blades seems quite well supported through the 16t through 19th century, and the 'English' provided blades were more often than not acquired by British merchants from Solingen sources and 'Alemain' not English.

Jim McDougall

1st August 2016, 05:22 AM

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.

Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

mariusgmioc

1st August 2016, 06:51 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

Thank you for the very interesting information! So it may be that the blade is European. It appears the more you dig, the more complex the problem becomes. :

Jim McDougall

1st August 2016, 07:42 AM

Well said Marius.
I have been studying these weapons for far more years (decades) than I can really say, and still feel like a novice. I learn more each day, and it seems for every answer there are so many more questions.

Complex is a good word for this fascinating field of conundrums!
The only thing with reasonable consistency is hilts, which generally will hold in some degree to local regions or cultural spheres. Blades however, were transmitted far and wide as a trade commodity, and their movements could be interrupted or entirely rerouted in accord with the constant flux of geopolitical events, warfare, changes in trade agreements etc.

I know I have seen this four petal in square design in other cases in North African weapons, and so far only found notes suggesting the design as far as Tunisia and into Saharan regions. It is hard to say whether it corresponds to something European, but we know that various European marks were duplicated by native workers in Africa often in multiple or repeated forms and other configurations. The familiar 'dukari' (paired crescent moons) are examples of such variations of European marks.

As for these 'floral squares' being placed on an imported European blade in India, it is of course possible, but as far as I have seen, unlikely. As I have said though, that is only my thought at present and quite frankly I hope someone comes up with an example of these exact kind of squares on a European blade, or on another Indian blade, which will confirm otherwise.
For me it is never being right or wrong......just learning!

Jim McDougall

1st August 2016, 07:46 AM

ariel

1st August 2016, 09:42 AM

After a bottle of Drambuie I will find the peacocks on a bottle of Heads n' Shoulders!

Kubur

1st August 2016, 09:45 AM

Addendum:
This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.
Thank you.

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

Jens Nordlunde

1st August 2016, 10:32 AM

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

mariusgmioc

1st August 2016, 02:46 PM

mariusgmioc

1st August 2016, 02:47 PM

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.

Very interesting "out of the box" perspective! Thank you! Your drawings are quite self-explanatory. :)

However, I can still see the "flower" symbol and no Maltese cross. :cool:

Jens Nordlunde

1st August 2016, 10:01 PM

Sorry I dont know where I 'hid' the flower.

kronckew

1st August 2016, 10:11 PM

reminds me of the 'flowers' on choora.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14910&highlight=choora

including mine :)

Jim McDougall

2nd August 2016, 12:36 AM

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

LOL!!! Kubur, when you first posted your pata, I spent some hours going through notes and trying to formulate a useful assessment on your sword (my post #6). It is unusual as I personally have not seen such a motif, in triple cartouches, on an Indian sword blade.

In your post #9, you note that 'like Jim, I see Maltese crosses', further noting you had trouble believing that 'nobody on this forum could establish origin of this blade!
It seems my observations were not of notable value, and you suggested (your post #14)that African makers certainly were not capable of making good blades.....and that you were hoping for 'other comments'.

I admit that my research on both African and Indian swords only spans several decades, and the last time I researched this particular floral motif was probably 5 or more years ago. I do remember that there were certain occasions when African and Indian influences did appear compellingly connected.

Today you disparagingly have overlooked my insufficient comments and observations from the noted posts, and have 'promoted' (?) me to 'guru?
It is funny that you claim that I am a 'victim of my knowledge' , must admit I have not heard that one before :)!!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?

So apparently since the earlier posts, I have gone from astute observer with irrelevant observations, to a guru blinded by my experience and knowledge ?

Please understand, this is an interesting discussion on a most interesting sword you have, and my efforts have not been to 'be a guru' or any such nonsense, but trying to help when you insisted on better suggestions than those I offered.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

Jim McDougall

2nd August 2016, 12:48 AM

Jens,
Thank you so much for the data on the four petal flower Ixora Coccinea which indeed does have remarkable similarity, and very well might suggest Indian application.
The interesting footnote in Elgood is I think #7, which suggests that the 'X' is often used in place of the 'sh' in pronouncing Shiva. The red flower 'vetchi' is sacred to Shiva.
Combined with Wayne's interesting note on flowers on choora, that crenellated design characteristic on these and Khyber knives is a compelling comparison to the inscribed design on this blade within the squares.

This seems strong potential for Indian origin for the blade, as you have suggested, and I would note that contrary to the many references to inferior Indian blades, it seems mostly toward the wootz having infractions. With regularly forged blades, they were of much desired quality and sought after in Arabia, thus probably often entering those trade spheres.

This seems contradictory, but it seems there are many variables, and often European blades were favored, but clearly Indian blades were equally satisfactory.

I hope these further notes might be useful in assisting Kubur with the pata in the OP. It does help to expand the discussion to note these variables.

Jim McDougall

2nd August 2016, 04:29 AM

Found an example of pata with African blade:
This is just one I found, but as I mentioned I have owned one much like this for any years, and I have seen numbers of them.
The blade is a North African blade known in Saharan regions as 'masri' which according to Rodd (1928) has triple channels in the center of the broadsword blade. The two outside channels each at the terminus has a small crescent moon termed 'dukari'.
These blades are exclusive to North Africa, and are typically regarded as of Hausa production and found in Saharan (takouba) and many kaskara (Sudanese) swords (Briggs, 1965).

The fact that many of these are thus found in Indian swords, usually pata, suggests that somehow, most likely the result of post Omdurman situations, a considerable number of African blades ended up in Southern India.

Cathey

2nd August 2016, 06:03 AM

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords. All of these have the large straight flat blades often seen on Pata's and Ferangi's, however uncommon on typical eastern blades.

Previous Pata post http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10945

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

PATA Circa 1700 (18th Century)
Nationality: Southern India Marathas
Overall Length: 129 cm 50 ¾ “
Blade length: 94 cm 37 “
Blade widest point: 4 cm 1 ½ ”
Hilt widest point: Gauntlet 34.6 cm 13 10/16” long 11.5 cm 4 ½ ”wide

This Pata consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. A pair of plain metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The Iron gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap attached by hinges that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The outside of the dark brown gauntlet is decorated with brass and copper metal-work featuring floral and geometric designs.

General Remarks
The pata is a single-handed Indian gauntlet sword. This sword was predominantly found in the southern regions of India. The Marathas invented the Pata, and it was their most favoured weapon. The patta consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. The blade is usually European, Italian or Spanish. A pair of metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap hinged to the upper end that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade.

The inside of the gauntlet is often padded to reinforce the grip and to reduce the shock of blows. The outside of the gauntlet is often covered with metal-worked decorations or embossed. A few were even studded with jewels. Some of the decorations depicted battle scenes. Others had prayers, or pictures of gods or large animals on them.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

References:
Pant, G.N. Indian Arms and Armour Volume II. New Delhi, S. Attar Singh Army Educational Stores. 1980. Pgs. 61-68
Rawson, P. S. The Indian Sword. London: Herbert Jenkins 1968. Pgs. 44-47
STONE, George Cameron, A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR IN ALL COUNTRIES AND IN ALL TIMES Pp 484-486

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Kubur

2nd August 2016, 09:21 AM

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I looked at your references, but I can't see any pictures, photos or drawings, that can support your interpretation for the Pata #1.
Please, it doesn't mean that I don't agree with you "in general". I agree, this decoration is common on Indian weapons. And the blade of the Pata #1 can be Indian, I have no problem with that too. I just need material evidences, not a note or an opinion.
:)

Kubur

2nd August 2016, 09:24 AM

The blade is a North African blade known in Saharan regions as 'masri' ..

This is extremely interesting, it could mean that these European blades came from Egypt, maybe via Alexandria...

The fact that many of these are thus found in Indian swords, usually pata, suggests that somehow, most likely the result of post Omdurman situations, a considerable number of African blades ended up in Southern India.

I think that one of your first post was correct: a lot of fakes were made from the relics of the British colonial empire: Sudan & India... Then of course, Indians imported European trade blades.

Kubur

2nd August 2016, 09:33 AM

LOL!!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

First, it's good to laugh, a lot of people take it too seriously. I don't.
In fact, I don't care if it's a flower or a cross. I just wrote and drawn that the motive is different from the one that you described. Apparently you didn't notice my comments and drawings (1 point each).
:) It's about what you see. And i don't agree about your African connexions. But I like your idea of the British colonial links between Sudan and India. In general, Jim, you stay my main source of inspiration on this forum!
:) Indian or European blade, I'll take it, but I need evidences...

mariusgmioc

2nd August 2016, 10:19 AM

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords.

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hello Cathey and Rex,

Thank you very much for the photos and info you provided!

I found rather confusing you mentioning that 17 century or earlier European sword were very flexible. :shrug:

From all that I know European swords were exactly the contrary. They were very stiff and heavy as they were designed to deliver powerful blows against heavily armoured oponents. Powerful blows that were not necessarily supposed to cause any cuts but to shatter bones and throw opponents out of balance. Practically none of the European swords I know (and I handled quite a few) had blades flexible enough to be suitable for Patas.

Second, the citation you give from Rawson is very misleading at least.

Patas may have been effective weapons in certain circumstances but they are extremely ineffective in others. For example, Patas are effective fighting multiple enemies wearing no armour in relatively wide open spaces but are very ineffective in crammed battles or against armoured opponents. Moreover, Patas are effective at delivering slashing/whipping blows, but are definitely not effective at thrusting/stabbing as their greater flexibility and length will make them easily bend if they encounter the slightest resistance like chainmail or even bone. Also the whole arm grip, makes the Pata very unsuitable for close combat in crammed spaces because of difficulties in handling the blade.

So, I believe Rawson got his information from anecdotal sources that cannot stand thorough scrutiny, and this would be a good example where flawed information has become to be considered as reference.

It would be interesting to see what others have to say about this subject.

Regards,

Marius

Jens Nordlunde

2nd August 2016, 01:48 PM

Marius,
I am with you. In another thread long ago it was suggested that the pata could be used as a lance. No it cant. The blade is far too flexible, and should you stab a man with a pata, you are likely to break your arm/shoulder or get the arm ripped off, as you can not let go of a pata as easily as you can with a tulwar.

Jim,
In the article Robert writes in Sultans of the South (pp. 218-233), he discusses the Indian and the European blades, and he ends the article by writing: "The Nomerous weapons of the Deccan reflect this diversity, and it remains difficult at attribute arms to a spacific court or to determine with certainty the origin of many of the firangi blades that are mounted on Indian gilts."
Francois Bernier who stayed in India from 1656 to 1668 writes: "...some Indian craftsmen can imitate European blades that the difference between the original and the copy can hardly be discerned." This quote is also from Robert's article.

Kubur.
You are right that Robert does not show the flower, so I did Google the name, here it is.

fernando

2nd August 2016, 03:22 PM

I bet you guys are familiar with Elgood's work "Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Cenmturies: Their Manufacture and Influence of European Imports."
I know this is a recurrent approach, but ... :o
Among the various interesting passages, i would venture this one to be of some opportunity here:

.

Jens Nordlunde

2nd August 2016, 04:16 PM

Hi Fernando :-),
Your quote is, of course, from Sultans of the South - goes without saying :-).
Did you also read where it says, that the swords from EAC can not be sold in India, as the quality is too low????
You can find quotes matching most arguments - so why argue, as non of us lived then, and our knowledge comes from books written by someone living, and travelling in India at the time.
We do know, however, from several collections that Indian sword smiths did make both genuine Indian, as well as copies of European blade, of a very high quality.
We now discuss the high quality of the European blades, but I am sure that you will be able to find blades made in Germany of a lower/low quality than the ones from Solingen, and the same goes for the other blade exporting countries.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

2nd August 2016, 05:17 PM

mariusgmioc

2nd August 2016, 05:18 PM

Hello Jens and Fernando,

My issue is not so much related to the quality of the blades as high quality blades were manufactured both in Europe and in India, but more with the TYPE of blades manufactured.

My point is that the Pata requires a very specific type of blade, long, wide and very, very elastic that is incompatible with any type of European or otherwise sword I know.

Now Jim has mentioned the Kattara (sounds like a type of Katar :shrug: ), but I am not familiar with this type of sword and I am planning to research more about it. However, there might be the possibility those swords use imported Indian blades, rather than the other way around.

In my line of logic, I believe that since the Pata blades were that peculiar and specific, it would be most logical they were manufactured locally, even if some of them were adorned with European-like decorations and markings. In other words, I find hard to concieve that European swordsmiths were producing this type of very special blades specifically for export to India.

Yes, there are some, maybe many, examples with Patas fitted with European rigid blades, but those Patas would have been extremely difficult, impractical and ineffective as weapons.

Jim McDougall

2nd August 2016, 06:09 PM

This is extremely interesting, it could mean that these European blades came from Egypt, maybe via Alexandria...

I think that one of your first post was correct: a lot of fakes were made from the relics of the British colonial empire: Sudan & India... Then of course, Indians imported European trade blades.

Well observed Kubur, actually the Arabic term 'masri' means loosely 'Egyptian' as found with many instances of the Mamluk swords in the outstanding reference by Yucel .
What was meant by post Omdurman refers to the British and French condominium occupying Egypt and Sudan after 1898. Certainly these Saharan and Sudanese swords which had moved into those regions could well have transmitted to India just as they arrived in England. Oakeshott in his "Records of the Medieval Sword" describes how many instances of contrived 'medieval' swords actually were mounted with blades from these cannibalized swords of Africa that had been brought back by the thousands.

fernando

2nd August 2016, 06:23 PM

Hi Marius,
I will not contest your knowledge of how patas were used in combat, in such way that they had to have extremily flexible blades, otherwise becoming impractical. I do not possess or have read any literature on that specific field, other than a written work mentioning that they required an intense school training.
But i make a point in questioning that the majority of pata blades were manufactured locally, as what i heard is the contrary.
In HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES by Rainer Daehnhardt he pretends that the majority pata blades were European, deliberately imported for such purpose, being brought by Portuguese and Venetian traders ... notwithstanding that the earlier examples of pata the author knows are from the end XV century and, in such cases, blades may have been repurposed from captured swords. Interesting to notice that, from the nine examples from the author's collection that illustrate the quoted book, only two are of Indian manufacture.
Of course this is worth what is worth.

Jim McDougall

2nd August 2016, 06:52 PM

First, it's good to laugh, a lot of people take it too seriously. I don't.
In fact, I don't care if it's a flower or a cross. I just wrote and drawn that the motive is different from the one that you described. Apparently you didn't notice my comments and drawings (1 point each).
:) It's about what you see. And i don't agree about your African connexions. But I like your idea of the British colonial links between Sudan and India. In general, Jim, you stay my main source of inspiration on this forum!
:) Indian or European blade, I'll take it, but I need evidences...

Thank you Kubur, clearly I did misunderstand, and absolutely right, it is good to maintain a good perspective through humor and patience as these complicated matters are difficult enough to sort through.
Having noted that, thank you for the compliment as well, though quite honestly I am no guru :) and my 'knowledge' is simply the cumulation of the hours I spend sorting through notes and references before I write.

You are exactly right to expect evidence, the mark of a sound researcher. Also, it is important to often alter opinions and views on subjects as that becomes available, that is if what is presented is viable or compelling, if not positively resounding.
That is the reason for our forums, to discuss and share information and work together in finding resolutions. As Marius has well noted, the absolute answers may not be found....YET....but we never stop trying! :)

As seen with the excellent entries by Jens with views of this important four petal flower, now that is compelling!!!
There are most certainly NO flowers like that growing in the Sahara!
Therefore, it would seem likely such a design would have diffused FROM Indian to the African sphere, which as earlier noted, is profoundly recognized with weapon forms as well as instances of blades etc.

As Jens also notes, he is yet unconvinced of this blade being European, and I also must note that my theory on that is surely not yet firm. The only thing on the blade which leads me toward European origin is the notable outlining of the sides of the blade, which if I recall was occasioned on certain blades of Spanish and Italian origin. This would be in line with the notes on 'firangi' (Elgood, 2004, p.245), which notes the volume of blades in India on katars in Tanjore (usually cut down of course) bearing the names from Italy, Portugal, German and England. Obviously Spanish would also be present but blades were often of the markets for other countries.

There are numbers of other references concerning the use of 'foreign' blades in India, even before the opening of Portuguese sea routes in the early 16th century (narratives dating pre 1507) (Elgood, 2004, p39).

On p.12, Elgood notes the volume of foreign goods sought and the enthusiastic adoption of European steel blades by Hindus, then mounted in local hilts. In fact, it is noted that in these early times arms were included in the volumes of goods from Venice to India. The numbers of 16th and 17th century blades present in a wide scope of decorated hilts varying in style suggest according to Elgood, that they had clearly been in use in India for some time and cannot be from a single shipment or victory.
Here, I would suggest that the option of surplus or worn blades from Europe might well have been exported, much as with the post crusades swords out of Malta into North Africa.

Which brings me to the flower/cross dilemma.
Actually when I first saw these floral designs on takouba hilts, I actually first saw the Maltese cross!!!! That was years ago, and I recall thinking that perhaps these were a native allusion to the cross pattee known to have been used by the crusaders. One of the longest lived notions of European writers was that the swords of the natives WERE the swords of the crusaders!
Actually the earliest volume of broadswords coming into Africa via the ports and entrepots of the littoral from Tunisia to Algeria was from Malta, which was an interim port carrying surplus goods from Europe and trade ports in those networks.

Later I saw the figure as a four petal flower, and regarded this symbol as another means of conveying the key device in Saharan, and much of these native folk traditions and religions as representing the four cardinal directions in an ecumenical sense.

Admittedly, at that point the possibility of connection to India had not yet been considered.
So Kubur, thank you for the drawings and perspective, and as always, Jens for your ever keen insights into the mysteries of Indian arms.

I wanted to write on some of the other aspects, but this treatise has turned into another Indian epic already!!! So many talking points and had to write to get them together, so thank you for those of you with the endurance to read this.

mariusgmioc

2nd August 2016, 07:41 PM

Hi Marius,

But i make a point in questioning that the majority of pata blades were manufactured locally, as what i heard is the contrary.
In HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES by Rainer Daehnhardt he pretends that the majority pata blades were European, deliberately imported for such purpose, being brought by Portuguese and Venetian traders ... notwithstanding that the earlier examples of pata the author knows are from the end XV century and, in such cases, blades may have been repurposed from captured swords. Interesting to notice that, from the nine examples from the author's collection that illustrate the quoted book, only two are of Indian manufacture.
Of course this is worth what is worth.

Well Fernando and Jim it is precisely this common established knowledge, that I am challenging based on logic and common practical sense.

It is precisely this common knowledge that very often can be fundamentally flawed as it was based on flawed original information.

Now what if Rainer Daehnhardt is wrong about this information (I don't say that he is)?! You get one piece of information like this from here, one from there and have a well founded and accepted opinion that may be considered by some as irrefutable truth... yet, be fundamentally wrong.

I do not challenge that many Tulwars or Pulwars have European blades, as they were common blades that could be used with diferent mounts, and thus it would be normal to be widely traded as a much demanded commodity. Moreover, at the time this trade occurred, much of Indian local production was shut down by the deliberate colonial policy.

However, with the Pata is something particular: it requires a particular type of blade, and a blade that isn't useful in any other mount and fighting style. So I find highly improbable the Indians invented the Pata and the fighting style associated to it while having to rely on imports from Europe of precisely that type of blades, made to order...
... all while they had at hand, capable bladesmiths and know-how to produce those blades themselves.

And I believe that here is a mistake in over generalizing. If many European blades were imported in India and mounted in local mounts, does this automatically imply that this is true for the Patas as well?! Based on what since Elgood seems to refer to blades in general?! And there is a long way between a generic sabre blade and Pata.

Dubito, ergo cogito. :)

mariusgmioc

2nd August 2016, 08:48 PM

Pata sword with European blade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7niTpIW7dEk

Pata sword with Indian blade:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QHTBq2DzSM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTwVfHkLtK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkakKuGuI3s

With the Pata with stiff European blade the parry of a full blow will result in a dislodged elbow or shoulder or, in best case scenario with the wielder seriously out of balance and vulnerable.

With a Pata with flexible Indian blade the parry of a full blow would have almost no impact on the wielder as the blade will elastically bend and absorb the shock, allowing the wielder to continue his movement and deliver a second and third blow, while continuously moving so not to be vulnerable to a quick approach attack.

Jens Nordlunde

2nd August 2016, 09:42 PM

Ok Marius, I agree with you when you say 'local' - if it can be meant in a broader sence in India.
I do also believe that there must have been a number of firangi pata blades, although I do not have any idea how widely they were spread.

Jim McDougall

3rd August 2016, 01:48 AM

Well Fernando and Jim it is precisely this common established knowledge, that I am challenging based on logic and common practical sense.

It is precisely this common knowledge that very often can be fundamentally flawed as it was based on flawed original information.

Now what if Rainer Daehnhardt is wrong about this information (I don't say that he is)?! You get one piece of information like this from here, one from there and have a well founded and accepted opinion that may be considered by some as irrefutable truth... yet, be fundamentally wrong.

I do not challenge that many Tulwars or Pulwars have European blades, as they were common blades that could be used with diferent mounts, and thus it would be normal to be widely traded as a much demanded commodity. Moreover, at the time this trade occurred, much of Indian local production was shut down by the deliberate colonial policy.

However, with the Pata is something particular: it requires a particular type of blade, and a blade that isn't useful in any other mount and fighting style. So I find highly improbable the Indians invented the Pata and the fighting style associated to it while having to rely on imports from Europe of precisely that type of blades, made to order...
... all while they had at hand, capable bladesmiths and know-how to produce those blades themselves.

And I believe that here is a mistake in over generalizing. If many European blades were imported in India and mounted in local mounts, does this automatically imply that this is true for the Patas as well?! Based on what since Elgood seems to refer to blades in general?! And there is a long way between a generic sabre blade and Pata.

Dubito, ergo cogito. :)

I would note here that this is a great discussion, and fantastic to have this traffic and interest in Indian arms. Typically through the years, it seems many collectors and historians have avoided this field probably due to the exact complexities we are tenaciously challenging.

I will also note that Dr. Robert Elgood is probably one of the most thorough and aggressive researchers in his chosen subjects that I have known (besides Jens of course!). I do not know Mr. Daehnhardt as Fernando does, but over many years, his observations and opinions have always proven sound. I note this as we have all been connected variably in these studies on these arms for well over 15+ years, and of course Robert Elgood's book "Hindu Arms and Ritual" has served as a landmark study since its release in 2004.

In trying address these points, first I would say that while both the pata and khanda had distinct southern origins, they typically would not necessarily have been appointed with the same type 'firangi' blades. The khanda, which was a purely Indian sword which developed the 'Hindu basket hilt' with the progression of European swords into India at the beginning of the 16th century, evolved characteristically by the 17thc into a backsword.
These moved northward into the Rajput sphere with their victory at Adoni in 1689, when huge volumes of arms etc were taken to Bikaner in Rajasthan.
Here the Hindu basket hilt became a well known Rajput weapon along with their familiar tulwars.

The pata was a quite different sword, though its areas of use were throughout the south. These evolved from the katars of Vijayanagara and Tanjore in around 16th century (with earlier cases still somewhat unresolved but pending, though recorded) which were essentially long bladed daggers using volumes of cut down European blades (Elgood p.145). These early katars were hooded and also used Indian made blades, but were notably slashing weapons.
These transverse grip slashing daggers by the early 17th c. evolved into what Deraniyagala termed 'equestrian swords' but were these 'gauntlet' swords using full length sword blades. This was the 'pata' and despite the bizarre notion these were used as a lance, this was not possible for rational reasons.
Therefore, the transverse grip dictated mostly the same slashing use as the katar, its dagger length predecessor.

As such, these pata required broadsword blades as the alternating slashing cuts would be more suitably effected with double edges.

The pata however, was not as widely diffused in number as the khanda (firangi basket hilt) and while remaining primarily in the Deccan and Southern regions, moved northward in degree via Mughal courts.

I think one of the most salient points regarding estimating the use of these weapons is to remember that parrying, and European style swordsmanship was not in Indian form. Parrying was the work of the shield, not the sword.
This is not to say it could never happen (to disclaim the inevitable exceptions), but that in general, it was not in place.
It is interesting to note that the ancestor or counterpart of the pata, the katar, did move northward with use by Mughals, Rajputs and others but gained the notable feature of reinforced blade tips for armor piercing.
These continued as well to be mounted with European blades cut down just as in the earliest beginnings, however it is doubtful that these blades could have succeeded in that capacity, while the Indian made ones would.

Returning to the pata, it seems Elgood notes in the article on the Deccan linked by Fernando, that the preponderance of pata blades were indeed European, and in fact only a few were known to have had Indian blades.

I think it is important to agree that these kinds of observations must be relegated to their context and the period in which they are discussed. There were clearly large numbers of European blades arriving in India 16th and 17th century, probably well into 18th. The British campaigns in the latter 18th certainly impacted trade and normal commerce, and the resumption of blade traffic probably resumed in degree in various areas in the 19th.
The British intervention was in wootz production and that was in the 19th century.

In the south, the preference of Mahrattas and other regional instances were straight blades. The larger volume of sabre blades was situated more in the entrepots on the west and north. As mentioned in the 17th century long firangi blades were a status symbol as at the time Indian swords were brittle, so the flexible blades brought by the English (probably German) went for high prices. Most of these issues with Indian blades had I think mostly to do with ill forged wootz, and it is noted that Jahangir as well as followed by Shah Jahan favored 'Almaine' (German) swords. These would have been probably sabre blades of course in Mughal tulwars.

BTW, on the worn motif on Kuburs blade (OP), the cartouches are likely worn away from the constant burnishing of the blade, apparently a key affectation of Indian blades to be of high polish. The upper one is still discernible nearest and under the langet.

Cogito ergo sum

mariusgmioc

3rd August 2016, 07:33 AM

Jim McDougall

3rd August 2016, 06:05 PM

Hello Jim and thank you for your very interesting comment! :)

I guess that in the end, we will end up with an open-ended conclusion as it would be probably impossible to establish certainly how many Pata swords had European and how many had Indian blades.

What is certain is they had both types of blades, and they evolved over time. It is quite possible that the earlier Patas had more rigid imported blades but then they evolved and so did the fighting style towards more flexible ones. If you are looking at the modern day Patas, they have a blade that is so flexible that it has become completely ineffective for a real battle, as it cannot deliver neither a thrusting nor a slashing blow strong enough to incapacitate an opponent.

However, I don't think that is really that important to reach a clear cut conclusion, as such a conclusion will carry little if any practical value. :shrug:

I think the process by which we are trying to reach a conclusion is much more important than the conclusion itself, as this process helps us learn and understand more about this subject. :)

PS: Now, while I still think that Jens' blade and mine are Indian, I believe that Kubur's blade is European, but has been decorated with some North Indian symbols.

Well noted Marius, and thank you.
It seems I recall a very sage comment once read, which said something to the effect, 'the thing I love most about history...is how it's always changing!!!'.
Naturally we cannot paint these kinds of topics with too broad a brush, as there are so many variables and distortions in narratives, records and other forms of evidence.

In Oman, the straight blade sword commonly known as the 'kattara' which has an open cylindrical hilt, developed in that form in the early 19th century, possibly earlier, has become a sword used ceremonially in exhibitions of martial prowess and celebration known as the Funun.
While these spectacular events show amazing skill and dexterity, it is important to note that blades which are deliberately thin and adapted to showcase the movements are used.
These particular versions of these swords mounted with unusually flexible blades for this purpose have in recent years become interpolated with other versions of the same style hilts, which were in earlier times mounted with genuine European blades and worn as status symbols by merchants and figures of key standing.

I know that in Kerala and in Southern India there are martial performances using certain traditional Indian weapons in similar circumstance, and often I have wondered just how connected these kinds of displays are to each other. Even Burton (1885) noted such performances using various weapons in Arab context and others, but as a fencing master of the sword, groused over such performances.

It does seem that one sword used in India in such performances of swordsmanship skill is the pata, and they are used in pairs, creating a spectacular windmill type effect.

I am not saying this is the case with any of the swords we are discussing, but offering the possibility of some explanation for extremely flexible blades which were probably more for effect than combat.

fernando

3rd August 2016, 07:25 PM

Obviously the blades of those patas Marcus linked to youtube are meant for show business; you would not call them flexible but undulating … or floppy … or whips, a great challenge for cutting apples and lemons, good for tribal rituals but unreal for battle. Certainly the sense of flexible as opposing to stiff was something that period warriors were certainly used to deal with. When we hear that the use of patas required intense training, we may assume that one of the purposes was to prevent users from muscular stress. In paging Elgood’s HINDU ARMS AND RITUAL we see a pata in page 97, quoted as (quote) arguably the earliest example known, in which the (Indian) blade has a pronounced central rib reaching to the point and obviously intended to stiffen the blade.
Certainly patas were not invented to deliberately use import blades but these surely played a substantial role. Obviously Rainer Daehnhardt opinion is worth what is worth (as i cared to mention) but evidence is strong enough to assume that European blades having been largely mounted in patas is not only an association of ideas built from such blades abounding in katars, pulwars and talwars.

mariusgmioc

3rd August 2016, 07:27 PM

I know that in Kerala and in Southern India there are martial performances using certain traditional Indian weapons in similar circumstance, and often I have wondered just how connected these kinds of displays are to each other. Even Burton (1885) noted such performances using various weapons in Arab context and others, but as a fencing master of the sword, groused over such performances.

It does seem that one sword used in India in such performances of swordsmanship skill is the pata, and they are used in pairs, creating a spectacular windmill type effect.

Exactly! One of the links provided in a previous mail is to a video of such a performance. However the Patas used there are so flexible that they are completely useless in a real combat.

:)

Jim McDougall

3rd August 2016, 09:29 PM

Exactly, and as I noted, the Omani performances called Funun, are actually based on many such tribal rituals before battle, where warriors brandished their swords and built up adrenalin and energy to build up their stamina for combat. This is not confined just to Arabs, Omanis, Baluch and others but seems almost a standard activity in warfare as such preparations are made to face the enemy.

Obviously, as swords became secondary weapons, it is well known that their traditions have remained firmly in place, and there are many 'sword dances' and performances which transcend cultures.

In the Omani Funun, one of the key elements of the performance, is the brandishing and quivering of the blade to produce a resounding whir with many simultaneous blades, and the flash of shining metal.

It is not surprising that such activities with swords, derived from training and practice exercises evolved into startling performances.

In the Elgood reference, it is noted that this katar has a stiffened central rib which clearly would suggest thrust or stab. This of course is keenly the case with this example proposing it as the earliest known example (c 1570).
While this use of the katar may have existed in this time (the deeper origins of the katar form itself may date centuries earlier) it does seem by the time it evolved into even longer versions (up to the pata) it became more a slashing weapon. I believe I earlier mentioned that large numbers of European blades were coming into India by 17th and many were cut down for katars.
The extremely limiting condition of the transversely held grip of the katar and enclosed pata did not lend well to combative action in established swordsmanship techniques, but in the sweeping slashing motions could be quite deadly.

Jens Nordlunde

3rd August 2016, 09:42 PM

Jim, do not forget to mention that a lot, if not all, of the troops were drugged before figthing.
Few mention it, but some does, and it was no different than with the Vikings and a lot of other fighting nations - but it is not so well know.

Jerseyman

3rd August 2016, 10:49 PM

Hi Marius - I'd like to comment briefly on the tangential discussion regarding stiff versus flexible blades. I think I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Whether the blade is stiff or flexible you will still cut with the edge. If the blow is blocked then the contact presumably will be made with the edge. I'm not an engineer so don't have the terminology to describe this well I'm afraid, but the energy of the impact will be transmitted edge-to-edge through the blade - not flat to flat.

No matter how flexible a blade is, it is completely rigid in the edge-to-edge plane. So logically there should be little difference in the energy of the impact and its transmission into the attacker's arm, other than that caused by the blade being lighter.

Indeed, if the flexible blade had the effect you describe it would actually minimise the percussive power of the blow reducing its effect as a weapon.

If you were describing an angled deflection strike rather than a completely perpendicular one I could see some of what you're describing - but then you'd be minimising the effectiveness of the blow it seems to me as the blade would want to flex away from the target greatly reducing the power of the impact. Would that logically be a choice one would make?

Bear in mind also that the fixed grip on the forearm would dictate a different positional use of the body in creating the strikes - so the impact of a blocked blow would be absorbed in the body slightly differently, and I would suggest, more efficiently - less likely to create the potential damage you describe.

Having worked with flexible blades a couple of times I can tell you that the energetic rebound through the weapon is as strong as a stiff blade but transmits with what I can only describe as an odd 'wobble' effect which can momentarily adjust your balance more strongly than the impact of a stiff blade. Primarily because of the randomness of the effect, so it can't be completely planned for.

Another thought regarding flexibility - in my experience, very often the longer the blade the more flexible it appears (or perhaps is) as its own weight causes it to bend. Outside my field of knowledge, but perhaps there's a correlation between flexibility-length-poorer quality steel? Which might be pertinent to the local v. imported blade debate perhaps?

In all of this I am of course talking about period weaponry, not the modern items produced for demonstration/performance.

Hi Jim - maybe one might draw parallels in the sweeping slashing actions to the Germanic doppelhander fighting styles?

Happy to have any of my assertions proved wrong or point out if I've misunderstood anything - just my tuppence...

Jim McDougall

3rd August 2016, 11:56 PM

Hi Jens,
Very well noted on the 'priming' of warriors before battle, and this seems always to have been the case where sometimes simply adrenalin is not enough, at least at the outset.

Jerseyman, thank you so much for your most interesting and well explained dynamics concerning these blades. It certainly adds perspective to the kind of circumstances which might have brought certain types of blades into favor over others, and the ultimate outcome in their use.

Indeed, the tandem use of two swords, daggers etc. does bring to mind the early fight studies of medieval Europe. It is always interesting to consider the aspects of cross cultural influences as the post exploration period led to colonization of so many continents.

In India, we know that the development of the Hindu basket hilt from the incorporation of the concept of developed hilts of Europe with the already established khanda certainly reflected a physical change in the weapon.
However it does not seem that the styles of swordsmanship changed to adopt European forms.
The longer 'firangi' blades became more of a status symbol and though these carried rapier blades, it does not seem sword to sword fencing became known to the Indians.

ariel

4th August 2016, 01:18 AM

AFAIK, Pata was a predominantly Mahratta weapon ( even Shivaji was portrayed carrying one).

Mahratta cavalry was irregular, and poorly disciplined. Their tactics was a rapid attack, one or two uncoordinated slashes and speedy withdrawal. For that , Pata was a very appropriate weapon: far-reaching, with wide area of potential damage, powerful strokes ( driven by the entire arm rather than just elbow or wrist) and a built-in arm protection. No fancy fencing here :-)))
The elasticity of the Pata blade was a very Southern feature, reaching its apogee in Urumi, also not designed for any precise cuts, but for rapid and unpredictable slashing.

mariusgmioc

4th August 2016, 07:58 AM

Hi Marius - I'd like to comment briefly on the tangential discussion regarding stiff versus flexible blades. I think I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Whether the blade is stiff or flexible you will still cut with the edge. If the blow is blocked then the contact presumably will be made with the edge. I'm not an engineer so don't have the terminology to describe this well I'm afraid, but the energy of the impact will be transmitted edge-to-edge through the blade - not flat to flat.

No matter how flexible a blade is, it is completely rigid in the edge-to-edge plane. So logically there should be little difference in the energy of the impact and its transmission into the attacker's arm, other than that caused by the blade being lighter.

Indeed, if the flexible blade had the effect you describe it would actually minimise the percussive power of the blow reducing its effect as a weapon.

If you were describing an angled deflection strike rather than a completely perpendicular one I could see some of what you're describing - but then you'd be minimising the effectiveness of the blow it seems to me as the blade would want to flex away from the target greatly reducing the power of the impact. Would that logically be a choice one would make?

Thank you very much for your observation!

You are right that for a perfectly straight blow the impact forces will be transmitted through the width of the blade, but how many blows are PERFECTLY perpendicular to the target surface in a real battle?! Even the slightest minute inclination would generate a transverse force that will tend to bend the blade. And even for a perfectly straight blow, at the moment of the impact the wielding arm will continue movement and necessarily have to change the angle, and then the blade will bend allowing the arm to continue the movement.

Regarding the relationship between elasticity and length, there is none. Elasticity is an intrinsic property of the material and is independent of the size or shape of the object. However, deformation is dependent on size an shape. So a coin will not bend even if you apply a huge force, but a long stripe made of exactly the same material will bend easily with the lightest force.

kronckew

4th August 2016, 08:37 AM

more opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7niTpIW7dEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1uo8Y1Mz2c

he discusses flexible blades used in the dancing demos and fruit cuttings. reminds me of shinese dao, the fighting ones have stiff thick blades and the ones used in wushu 'dancing' have very flexible ones, especially near the tips, because they make a cool sound as they wobble & thus enhance the dance.

i have examples of both & yes, if sharpened the wushu one will cut, but i'd rather have the thicker dao if i were in serious need.

fernando

4th August 2016, 12:56 PM

...In the Elgood reference, it is noted that this katar has a stiffened central rib which clearly would suggest thrust or stab. This of course is keenly the case with this example proposing it as the earliest known example (c 1570).
While this use of the katar may have existed in this time (the deeper origins of the katar form itself may date centuries earlier) ...
The example in fig. 8.58 would be a Pata Jim, not a Katar (Met Museum, 36.25.1534); reason why i thought this was worthy of note.
I wonder on what basis did Elgood quote this example as 'arguably' been the earliest pata known but, for the case, if fits well in Rainer Daehnhardt's assumption (presumption ?) that the earliest known example is in his collection, and should date from the first quarter XVI century; a battle specimen naked of all luxury, with a gauntlet of turned/carved wood, reinforced with iron straps ... again with an European blade, probably from a navigator's sword, from the transiction XV-XVI centuries.

.

fernando

4th August 2016, 03:05 PM

AFAIK, Pata was a predominantly Mahratta weapon ( even Shivaji was portrayed carrying one)...
Well noted 'predominantely', if i may; Sikhs and Rajputs also gave it a little hand. And, confirming that the exception makes the rule, there is a XVIII century beautiful Pata at the Met, doubtlessly made for a Muslim, inscribed with Qur'anic verse and a reference to Dhu'l faqar ... and with an XVI century European blade, for a change.

Mahratta cavalry was irregular, and poorly disciplined. Their tactics was a rapid attack, one or two uncoordinated slashes and speedy withdrawal.
Interesting approach ! A different version may also be concluded from written stuff and historical evidence.
Shivaji is said to have built a disciplined military force. He innovated military tactics, pioneering the guerrilla warfare methods, which leveraged strategic factors like geography, speed, and surprise and focused pinpoint attacks to defeat his larger and more powerful enemies.
If not, history tells us that, at the beginning of the XVIII century, the Marathas led by Chimaji Appa fought several battles against the Portuguese, by then a weakened adversary, managing to drive them out of Western India.

.

Jim McDougall

4th August 2016, 05:58 PM

The example in fig. 8.58 would be a Pata Jim, not a Katar (Met Museum, 36.25.1534); reason why i thought this was worthy of note.
I wonder on what basis did Elgood quote this example as 'arguably' been the earliest pata known but, for the case, if fits well in Rainer Daehnhardt's assumption (presumption ?) that the earliest known example is in his collection, and should date from the first quarter XVI century; a battle specimen naked of all luxury, with a gauntlet of turned/carved wood, reinforced with iron straps ... again with an European blade, probably from a navigator's sword, from the transiction XV-XVI centuries.

.

Thank you Fernando for adding this! With Mr. Daehnhardt's knowledge and acumen with arms esoterica, it is fascinating to know of this example. At the early date of this blade it does seem to compellingly be presumed a Portuguese blade. While some degree of European blades apparently were coming into India in this early period, the notable volume was more into the beginning of the 17th.
It does seem that the pata itself was primarily a 17th century innovation, and you are right, the image in Elgood 8.58 only shows the hilt and no mention is made of the blade length.
Obviously the hooded katars were already in place by the c. 1570 date placed on this example, and thus it may be a katar, but curious why the 'pata' term was noted.

I know that Jens' extensive research on the katar has projected start dates centuries earlier based on iconographic and other sources still being reviewed. These seem to center on Orissa, and I am wondering when and where the sword length (pata) began (17th century noted).
It is always confusing when we are trying to establish what is a long dagger vs. a short sword.
We know that early katars were using what is noted (Elgood p.245) as volumes of 'cut down' European blades in Vijayanagara and Tanjore in the 17th century, having begun with latter 16th blades.

It would seem as noted by Ariel, the Marathas (Mahratta apparently the archaic spelling used in most western narratives) in fact were likely the innovators of using the entire gauntlet weapon on full length blades . They were as I understand key in trade and maritime activity, thus the European blades were as noted, plentiful by the 17th well through18th .
The pata clearly transmitted into use by Rajputs, as well established, but to lesser degree with Mughals and Sikhs.

With the renowned use of the pata by the Marathas and of course their leader Shivaji, the use as a cavalry weapon is we established. The descriptions of them as a military force of course will vary. It seems that such views were filtered through English narratives often from Rajput perspective, thus probably somewhat biased. In any case, they were it seems a quite formidable force and as noted by Fernando, quite successful in their campaigns.

Clearly the 'gauntlet' emplacement onto a blade must have simply been an innovation of the amalgamation of the vambrace (bazu band) on the forearm with a blade in combined function. In past research on the evolution of a transverse grip weapon, there have been considerations on the concept of that manner in holding the buckler or shield where the boss incorporated a spike or blade, effectively becoming a stabbing arm with opportunity .

Attached are the images of Shivaji and page from Stone (1934).

ariel

4th August 2016, 06:38 PM

Actually, it is well recorded that Shivaji was of a very short stature.
His depiction as a giant on a giant horse, surrounded by dwarfish companions, might serve as an illustration of a "napoleonic complex" for a psychology class:-)))

ariel

4th August 2016, 06:40 PM

Interesting approach ! A different version may also be concluded from written stuff and historical evidence.
Shivaji .... innovated military tactics, pioneering the guerrilla warfare methods, which leveraged strategic factors like geography, speed, and surprise and focused pinpoint attacks to defeat his larger and more powerful enemies.

.

That was exactly what I was talking about :-))

fernando

4th August 2016, 06:51 PM

That was exactly what I was talking about :-))
I know you were, Ariel; i was more focusing on that part of the Mahratta cavalry being irregular, and poorly disciplined. Apparently Shivaji has inovated military tactics of the period, being the pioneer of guerilla tactics "Shiva sutra" or Ganimi Kava.

fernando

4th August 2016, 07:11 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th August 2016, 02:21 PM

I remembered taking these pictures ...Early forms if I remember rightly...and exploring something of the Ethnographic as one seems to be a training stick version whilst the other looks to be wood carved in the hand/arm-guard. It could be argued that the older or more animalistic shaped the arm and handguard ...The more Zoomorphic ~ the older the weapon...and the more geometric the design the less old the weapon.
Looking at the baseline..for the basics... I illustrate what Wikipedia says viz
Quote"History
Created during the Mughal period, the pata's use in warfare appears to be mostly restricted to the 17th century when the Marathas came into prominence. Ranging in length from 10 to 44 inches, it was considered to be a highly effective weapon for infantrymen against heavily armoured cavalry. Folklore has it that a Maratha soldier would use the dandpatta when encircled, so as to maximize the casualties on the opposition, before he fell. The founder of the Maratha Empire, Emperor Shivaji, was reputedly trained in the art of fighting with pata. One of his generals, Tanaji Malusare, wielded the weapon with both hands during the Battle of Sinhagad, before one of his hands was cut off by the Rajput Udaybhan Singh Rathod".Unquote.

Once again refering to the basic note... From The Caravana collection I Quote"The Patta Sword;
The pata, patta, dand patta or dandpatta is an Indian sword with a gauntlet integrated as a handguard. Basically the sword has a wide and long hilt where the blade is integrated. The use of the term Patta or Patá is possibly linked to Portuguese terminology regarding what the sword resembles – a paw (pata in Portuguese) or a quadruped member.
This is a notable example of a Patta the most characteristic Maratha weapon and exclusively used in the Indian subcontinent. It has a double edged blade, made of steel originating in Europe, which is quite common in high quality Pattas.

The Patta was the most used weapon by Hindu fighting monks. These made battle on foot and could easily decapitate a horseman who attacked them. There were, however, many Mughal noblemen who used them when horse riding, as is possible to observe in miniatures from the 1700s.

Portuguese armies did not get to use the Patta, but they were used by many of the auxiliary Hindu forces which fought as allies to the Portuguese viceroys of India. Although it is the edged weapon with the largest action radius ever made, it is also a hard to handle weapon, which demanded not only physical strength but also prolonged training".Unquote.

From http://www.runjeetsingh.com/cat-2015-winter/14 I note an interesting potential mixture perhaps pointing toward a relationship between the Kattar dagger and the Pata or Dandpata...here...

Jim McDougall

6th August 2016, 07:39 PM

Interesting image of 'SIVAJI ON THE MARCH', Jim. Note the few infantry men also armed with a pata, suggesting that this weapon was not exclusive of Cavalry.
Here is a portrait of the man alone, holding a pata; surely the image previously mentioned by Ariel.

.\

Thank you Fernando, what a fantastic portrait!!
It is interesting, as Ariel has noted, how many of these powerful historic figures were indeed diminutive in size, and notably 'embellished' accordingly larger in artwork of the times.
Also, it does seem that of course, the length of these 'extended katars' would have been well used by infantry. In this regard, I wonder about Rajput use, as it seems that their standard of combat was geared toward dismounting to fight.
As in the detail added by Ibrahiim notes, these longer swords could easily reach horsemen. I would imagine in a melee, that would be possible if the rider were maneuvering and in downward posture for any reason.
Hard to imagine all the probabilities.

Jens Nordlunde

7th August 2016, 09:00 PM

In The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. Rajendralala Mitra on page 198 writes something I find quite interesting.

"The Marhattas had a large steel gauntlet, but it has no ancient name."

We must remember that Mitra wrote about ancient Orissa temple statue decorations, and not about such 'modern' weapons as the ones from the 16th or 17 th century:-).

This leads me to think that the gauntles sword/dagger maybe could be from the 16th century, and not much earlier - if earlier at all.

mahratt

7th August 2016, 09:24 PM

One more image SIVAJI

Jens Nordlunde

7th August 2016, 09:39 PM

Interesting pictures. From where are they?

mahratt

7th August 2016, 10:07 PM

Interesting pictures. From where are they?

This miniaturepaintings my friend bought in London by the well-known collector of miniatures - Piter.

Jens Nordlunde

8th August 2016, 09:05 AM

Do you know how old the miniature is?

mahratt

8th August 2016, 09:12 AM

Do you know how old the miniature is?

This is the end of the 18th century, if my memory serves me. When my friend come from vacation, I'll ask him for sure. This miniature was at an exhibition in Brussels:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21035&highlight=Brussels

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

8th August 2016, 12:17 PM

First an interesting look at the choreography of fighting with two Dandpata at the same time; please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV25-ORDeUg and imagine being in the arena trying to fight this technique.

Secondly a look at http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMuseumPlus?service=ExternalInterface&module=collection&objectId=62061&viewType=detailView Abraham Stamm blade on a PATA; By the way PATA means paw in Portuguese) ; The blade clearly marked with Stamm on one blade surface and Solingen on the reverse. Stamm was active between 1700 and 1729.

Finally, Please note ; Another Stamm appears at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=8&pp=30&highlight=stamm . Quite usually his blade stamp is two; STAMM STAMM. That may also be the case at the bolster at the throat concealing the full inscription at para 2 above..

mariusgmioc

8th August 2016, 03:10 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim very much, for this magnificent example and for the link to the clip with the fighting style.
:)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

9th August 2016, 02:56 AM

Thank you Ibrahiim very much, for this magnificent example and for the link to the clip with the fighting style.
:)

Thank you... I hope it was helpful...I just noticed that Stamm is preceeded by a letter M...The blade maker usually placed his name as STAMM STAMM thus, this is the case here. :) Ibrahiim.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

17th August 2016, 11:57 PM

I have never seen birds on these weapons before.. :shrug:

Jerseyman

19th August 2016, 09:35 PM

Hi Marius,

Sorry for taking so long to respond - you're absolutely right in your observation, very few strikes will be absolutely perpendicular to the target. Consequently there will always be some flex in the blade - my doubt resides in the assertion that blades were deliberately made very flexible as a positive asset.

It seems to me that a certain amount of flex is to be desired, but too much flex would be extremely detrimental to the power and accuracy of the attack or its follow-up. And I assume that historically, various armourers must have made a study of the compromise between stiffness/flexibility, hardness/strength, edge-holding capability etc.

Quite a few antique blades I've handled of generic 'european' sword length seem to be tempered to a moderate flex where the top half of the blade will bend to roughly 30º then snap back to true. Certainly not all - and I suspect that might be a reflection of function - some blades are obviously designed to be stiffer. Taking the various British cavalry sabres of the 19C as an example - to my very untutored eyes they seem to get stiffer through the century - perhaps adjusting to the changing role of cavalry? Or simply the gradual straightening of the design? I acknowledge that I am speculating about something of which I know little. I have both a parang nabur and a shotel with moderately stiff blades and a full-length flyssa with a blade that I couldn't bend if I tried. Is stiffness v. flex down to function or choice?

I seem to recall seeing a tv series on weapons by Mike Loades in which there was a demonstration of cavalrymen cutting cabbages/melons. The cuts were then shown in extreme slow-motion and the amount of cavitation/flex in what seemed to be very stiff blades was extraordinary. Which seemed to suggest that no matter how stiff the blade the impact of a strike will have a massive impact on it - at a speed too fast for the eye to follow. I cannot now recollect which blades they were using. Unfortunately I can't find that footage anywhere - if anyone else can find it please do post it as it's fascinating.

I'm about to post a single-edged pata on a new thread with a well-tempered blade that bends as I describe above and snaps back to straight.

I guess to finish up, I just don't buy that a very flexible blade is more effective in attack.

Happy to be shown the error of my ways....

kronckew

20th August 2016, 07:18 AM

one of my swords came with a copy of it's british proof test passing. blade was clamped and tip moved to either side 30 degrees and had to spring back to zero each time.

a certain amount of flex is good, for shock absorption, but too much can prevent a thrust or ruin a cut, especially if the opponent has any kind of armour or padding. a wobbly blade is not designed to do either, it's designed that way in a few indian and chinese weapons to enhance the wobble and flutter to make cool noises as it is danced with. some blades, like the pata and wushu dao are degenerate designes based on the older and stiffer weapons actually designed to be used in battle. if ypu see videos of 'stiff' katana cutting stuff, tatami & bamboo, you can be surprised at how much they do wobble during the cut, longitudinally and transverse.

there are still two schools of thought on straight vs. curved blades. straight blades are better for thrusting, curved for cutting. the debate was strong during the latter half of the 19c. people thrust thru tend to die (with certain notable exceptions, like jim bowie in the sandbank via a sword-stick blade), people cut tend to have ghastly disabling wounds, but many with care recover nicely, tho they may remain disabled. modern medicine of course can now save many who would have died, thru techniques learned from past wars. it does take up resources tho.

thus many countries decided to go for straighter blades & emphasized the killing thust. the last cavalry sword design in the USA and the UK were essentially thrusting weapons and were used as short lances, and no emphasis was placed on training to do anything else but poke it into the enemy's body and avoid breaking your wrist as you rode past. cutting emphasizes the exchange of blows and parries in defence, requiring a more static tho fluid movements that need a fair amount of training or experience. in the age of the machine gun, the conscripts had little formal training before they were needed to become cannon fodder in the senseless charges into the spandaus and vickers MGs.

they brutal, facts are tho, that you should try to disable your enemy with a nice gory wound and tie up your enemy with casualties that need manpower to care for, transport and housing, and need precious resources, food and medicines.

a dead man takes no one and needs nothing past his grave digger, while an injured man can take up the precious time of on average 5 people who need food and housing, transport etc. till he is well enough to be sent home to shock his countrymen with his wound scars or missing lopped off limbs.

mariusgmioc

20th August 2016, 07:41 AM

Hello and thank you Jerseyman and Kronckew for your very interesting postings!

Yes, flexibility of a blade should be optimised.

Too little of it and the blade or arm may break or in the best case throw you out of balance and too much of it would render the blade useless as it won't be able to cut/stab anything because of bending.

Yet, I believe that most of standard European broadsword blades were too stiff for the Pata fighting style.

However, It is possible there were different styles or techniques of fighting adapted to diferent types of blades, but nowdays only the more spectacular swirling style involving extremely flexible (and useless for real combat) blades survived. :shrug:

Jens Nordlunde

29th October 2018, 04:34 PM

Jim McDougall

29th October 2018, 08:40 PM

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens

While this question was from some time back, isnt this pata Fernando is referring to looks like a dramatically cut down European blade and the 'L' is likely the last letter of the name on the blade. The cross and orb device was usually used in a motif fashion to close a phrase or wording or in cases a name. Looks 17th c.

fernando

29th October 2018, 10:23 PM

Fernando,
I am really not sure, as it looks as if on the blade, just under the langet, there is an 'L' - see your detail picture of the blade, post 27. So maybe there is an inscrpition under the langet.
Jens
Jens, if i was an imaginative person, and based on the blade being European, i would venture that the "L" is the last letter of Portugal. And this should take me to ask you if there isn't also a letter emerging from the langet on the other side :o.

Jens Nordlunde

29th October 2018, 10:24 PM

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - thempting, but no.

Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.

Jim McDougall

30th October 2018, 12:06 AM

Thank you Jens for the great image on this. In seeing these up close it appears these lines, the cross and orb and whatever those letters are have been drawn or inscribed into a kind of simulated fuller. That last letter looks like a lazy 'Y'.
To me this suggests probably an Indian made blade estimating the markings often seen on European ones. The character of the globe and cross is very artistic compared to the European ones, and it seems usually not used as a terminus like this, but appears on its own. I do know of some cases where it does occur like this but usually it is an anchor in this place.

Helleri

30th October 2018, 12:31 AM

Just as a matter of curiosity would it be possible to get a picture of the inside of the sleeve?

fernando

30th October 2018, 01:15 PM

... Ok Fernando, I have hakan a pictire of the other side, here it is. It looks as if there is an 'E' just under the langet.
VIVA EL REY
DE PORTUGAL

Jens Nordlunde

30th October 2018, 04:07 PM

Helleri, I dont know how to do this, does anyone have an idea?
Would X-ray show anything? If it is possible, there will, no doubt, be so much dirt under the langet, so it will be impossible to see anything.

Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting.
Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade?
How old would you estimate the blade to be?

fernando

30th October 2018, 05:29 PM

... Fernando, maybe you are right. If you are it would be most interesting. Do you have a picture showing the text from another blade?
How old would you estimate the blade to be ?...
As you put it Jens, this is a maybe :shrug:.
Here is a 'bad' example of sword for the case, just to show you the clear text.This sword is from the XVIII century, whereas this type of inscription must have started to appear by the second half XVII century (or post-1640), as a patriotic acclaim during the restoration of the independence.
The inscription 'good' format is in the second set of pictures, where in a cup hilted sword/rapier of my little collection you may (hardly) discern the faded inscription divided one half in each side of the blade.

.

Jens Nordlunde

31st October 2018, 05:02 PM

Fernando,

Thank you for the pictures.
Do you have any pictures showing what the inscription on my blade might have looked like?

Edward F

31st October 2018, 08:28 PM

im not sure you have enough space ,I used white paper with carbon paper and got impression of number 2 under langet

fernando

1st November 2018, 11:32 AM

Fernando,

Thank you for the pictures.
Do you have any pictures showing what the inscription on my blade might have looked like?
No, idon't !
I even admit that this inscription has been written in different font styles, depending on the smith source and time line. Very often they were not engraved deeply enough to resist time and partly faded way. Here is one in a XVIII century small sword, a so called Quitó.

Jens Nordlunde

1st November 2018, 04:50 PM

Jim McDougall

1st November 2018, 05:10 PM

Thank you for the pictures Fernando.
Having looked at the blade once more, I still think it is an Indian copy of a blade from Portugal
It is interesting to notice that a lot of the blades looking European were in fact made in India.

I very much agree with Jens. The 'globus cruciger" (globe and cross) seems 'artistically' applied in a rendering of that typically seen on German made blades, and probably what can be seen of a notable inscription theme on Portuguese swords. As the Portuguese were key in the post contact trade in India from 16th c. the numbers of blades extant must have been significant and ready subject matter to be copied by skilled Indian smiths. In later situations many of the blades were Solingen made though with the same themes.

fernando

1st November 2018, 05:23 PM

Thank you for the pictures Fernando.
Having looked at the blade once more, I still think it is an Indian copy of a blade from Portugal
It is interesting to notice that a lot of the blades looking European were in fact made in India.
I would not mind subscribing your thoughts, Jens. That "Y" looks like a bit of a fantasy ... not to speak of that sort of "cross and orb" symbol approach.

.

kronckew

1st November 2018, 07:49 PM

"... to notice that a lot of the blades looking European were in fact made in India"

or

"... to notice that a lot of the European blades were in fact made in India"

much like

"... to notice that a lot of the European blades were in fact made in Solingen"

:shrug:

Kubur

2nd November 2018, 09:50 AM

VIVA EL REY
DE PORTUGAL

Mmmm the problem with Portugueses, everything has to be Portuguese...
And what about the Spanish??
:)

fernando

2nd November 2018, 02:59 PM

Mmmm the problem with Portugueses, everything has to be Portuguese...
And what about the Spanish??
:)
Would:
VIVA EL REY
DE ESPAÑA
... make you happy ? :cool:

By the way, the inscription on your blade most probably wasn't made by a Spaniard, but by a German (Solingen ?); i wouldn't know of España being written with a double NN ;) .

.

Lee

2nd November 2018, 04:30 PM

Yes Jim, a name could be hidden behind the langet - but we will never find out, as I am not going to take it apart - tempting, but no.I suppose if one had the contacts and resources, X-rays using modern digital detectors to generate images that can then be manipulated on a computer to apply false contrasts or color could disclose what the blade inscription actually says in an entirely non-destructive fashion. Of course, I have a European sword with an earlier medieval blade with what has been assumed in over a hundred years of literature to be the end of a medieval inscription, but I personally suspect it is only initials from the time of remounting and I do not have the contacts to lay that matter to rest. Similarly a couple of unproven possible Ulfberhts also remain in uncertainty. In any case, back on topic, that is one really nice pata!

Jim McDougall

2nd November 2018, 05:44 PM

Actually the concerns over whether this blade is European...….and by the presumed inscription being Portuguese or Spanish seem entirely moot at this point, as has been well pointed out......the blades of both were typically by this period made in Solingen.

The apparent consensus is that the presumed inscription (artfully applied) is most likely on a blade made in India and that it is probably in imitation of something seen often on earlier European blades. As Portugal had presence in India primarily in western littoral in many locations since early 16th c. (known collectively as Goa)….it seems most probable that a Portuguese inscription might be the model for such inscription.

While the cross and orb is most commonly known on German made blades, we can presume that the model being copied is from a German blade.
While possible of course that a Spanish blade might have been at hand....the Spanish had no presence in India directly ….the Portuguese did ….in Southern India …...the regions where the pata prevailed.

As far as radiological examination of the inscription, one of the only enactors of that process that comes to mind is Dr. Cyril Mazansky (author of " British Basket Hilt Swords") who wrote an article on the x-ray examination of a basket hilt sword off a shipwreck in the Caribbean. Other than that the most usual application has been studying the metallurgical properties of blades in the study of wootz by Dr. Ann Fuerbach et al as far as I recall.

As noted , this requires profound connection to those with the very expensive equipment in use, and would be very expensive. As the dismantling of an historic and valuable sword would compromise its integrity in degree, this might be an alternative but with risk, expense and less than guaranteed results not worth it.

As we know the inscription is spurious, and that the blade is almost certainly not European.....I think it best to accept it for what it is....

a beautiful pata with Indian blade and artistically applied European inscription and motif.