Afghan Pulowar blade type?

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,
Recently got the Afghan Pulowar in the photos attached.
As I would like to learn more about it, any comments/opinions would be welcomed especially pertaining the blade.
Regards,
Marius

[kronckew]

poor thing, it needs TLC and feeding to recover from the trauma of it's past life. i recommend sending it to me immediately so i can hug her and squeeze her and fuss over her. i'd return her eventually, i promise. shouldn't take more than a few decades or so. i'd not even charge you for her room and board.

anyway, have to go get a towel to wipe the drool off my keyboard. she's gorgeous whatever her past.

[mariusgmioc]

poor thing, it needs TLC and feeding to recover from the trauma of it's past life. i recommend sending it to me immediately so i can hug her and squeeze her and fuss over her. i'd return her eventually, i promise. shouldn't take more than a few decades or so. i'd not even charge you for her room and board.

anyway, have to go get a towel to wipe the drool off my keyboard. she's gorgeous whatever her past.

I am sure your message would have made proud the swordsmith who made it!
:)

But what do you think: European or Indian blade?!

[ariel]

Indian.

[kronckew]

ditto. :)

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you! :)

[Jim McDougall]

While the brief responses are quite correct, I thought it might be helpful to offer a few extra words to explain why this blade is Indian for others who read here and future researchers.
If you note at the edge of the blade, the extended blocked section at the root which is blunt. This is inherently present in most cases on these blades to the point of being termed by Rawson, "the Indian ricasso'.

While the sword itself is known as a 'paluoar' typically attributed to Afghanistan, it must be noted that until the 20th century, these regions were known collectively in the British Raj as northern India. In Egerton (1884), these are depicted with other tulwars and classified 'Indian'. There are certain inherent characteristics which are sometimes found hybridized in regular form tulwars, which can often presumably offer potential classification of these to northern regions, perhaps Sind and Baluchistan. These would include the quartered guard with floral device or other fixture at center; the vertically fluted grip and the pierced openwork as instances.

As discussions through the years here have revealed, the term 'paluaor' is unknown in referring to these swords, which reflect the profound influence from the Deccan probably via ongoing diplomatic and cultural channels.

[mariusgmioc]

While the brief responses are quite correct, I thought it might be helpful to offer a few extra words to explain why this blade is Indian for others who read here and future researchers.

Thank you very much for the explanations!

At least for me, they are most welcomed. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much for the explanations!

At least for me, they are most welcomed. :)


As is your most courteous response :) and I appreciate your sharing this example here to present the opportunity .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Afghanistan. Against the light blue background and Enfield blade on a 'Paluoar'

[mariusgmioc]

double message deleted

[mariusgmioc]

Afghanistan. Against the light blue background and Enfield blade on a 'Paluoar'

Thanks for the photos!

The blade of the first one is absolutely stunning... and I mean WOW! :)

Any idea where might that blade come from?

[BANDOOK]

While the brief responses are quite correct, I thought it might be helpful to offer a few extra words to explain why this blade is Indian for others who read here and future researchers.
If you note at the edge of the blade, the extended blocked section at the root which is blunt. This is inherently present in most cases on these blades to the point of being termed by Rawson, "the Indian ricasso'.

While the sword itself is known as a 'paluoar' typically attributed to Afghanistan, it must be noted that until the 20th century, these regions were known collectively in the British Raj as northern India. In Egerton (1884), these are depicted with other tulwars and classified 'Indian'. There are certain inherent characteristics which are sometimes found hybridized in regular form tulwars, which can often presumably offer potential classification of these to northern regions, perhaps Sind and Baluchistan. These would include the quartered guard with floral device or other fixture at center; the vertically fluted grip and the pierced openwork as instances.

As discussions through the years here have revealed, the term 'paluaor' is unknown in referring to these swords, which reflect the profound influence from the Deccan probably via ongoing diplomatic and cultural channels.
GREAT INFORMATION JIM,MANY THANKS

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks for the photos!

The blade of the first one is absolutely stunning... and I mean WOW! :)

Any idea where might that blade come from?


This type of blade is quite unusual as the slots in the blade can carry pearls...which slide up and down... I think it is called the blade/tears of the afflicted or something like that. The Chinese incorporated this design but it is often also seen in Afghan/Persian/ Indian blades. See http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html for the Chinese link ....and as good as it gets this is discussed with excellent detail at Forum Library http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6912&highlight=tears+afflicted
Some observe the decorative nature and I agree with that..as well as the technology in engineering such a blade. The blade also seen in the second picture looks classy and since it has both a great cartouche and magic squares as well as having the appearance of wootz;...a nice weapon..

[mariusgmioc]

This type of blade is quite unusual as the slots in the blade can carry pearls...which slide up and down... I think it is called the blade/tears of the afflicted or something like that. The Chinese incorporated this design but it is often also seen in Afghan/Persian/ Indian blades. See http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html for the Chinese link ....and as good as it gets this is discussed with excellent detail at Forum Library http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6912&highlight=tears+afflicted
Some observe the decorative nature and I agree with that..as well as the technology in engineering such a blade. The blade also seen in the second picture looks classy and since it has both a great cartouche and magic squares as well as having the appearance of wootz;...a nice weapon..

Hello Ibrahiim and thank you for the explanations but I don't see any slots with the "tears of the wounded," only fullers.
:shrug:

I also think the appearance of wootz is given by very fine pattern welding since the streaks of patternig are much too long and run more or less paralel to eachother. :shrug:

[estcrh]

Hello Ibrahiim and thank you for the explanations but I don't see any slots with the "tears of the wounded," only fullers.
:shrug:

I also think the appearance of wootz is given by very fine pattern welding since the streaks of patternig are much too long and run more or less paralel to eachother. :shrug:
This is a confusing blade, it has a radical curve, the fullers look crudely done like they were gouged out, yet there are gold / brass inserts all along the back edge, fold lines run through it from one end to the other. I have been looking but have not seen another one quite like it, I was thinking Persian but that is just a guess.

By the way, yours is a very nice example, you are on a winning streak lately.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a confusing blade, it has a radical curve, the fullers look crudely done like they were gouged out, yet there are gold / brass inserts all along the back edge, fold lines run through it from one end to the other. I have been looking but have not seen another one quite like it, I was thinking Persian but that is just a guess.

By the way, yours is a very nice example, you are on a winning streak lately.

Eric, I would say this is a rather rough approximation of a Persian trade blade, the dots at the beginning of the grooves are seen on a number of Persian influenced blades in this manner. The cartouche and the talismanic bedough square also intended to recall such blades. As this is on an Afghan paluoar it is not surprising as frontier artisans in these regions were most creative.

[estcrh]

Eric, I would say this is a rather rough approximation of a Persian trade blade, the dots at the beginning of the grooves are seen on a number of Persian influenced blades in this manner. The cartouche and the talismanic bedough square also intended to recall such blades. As this is on an Afghan paluoar it is not surprising as frontier artisans in these regions were most creative.
Jim, thanks for your insight!!!

[mariusgmioc]

This is a confusing blade, it has a radical curve, the fullers look crudely done like they were gouged out, yet there are gold / brass inserts all along the back edge, fold lines run through it from one end to the other. I have been looking but have not seen another one quite like it, I was thinking Persian but that is just a guess.

By the way, yours is a very nice example, you are on a winning streak lately.

Winning streak... maybe, but definitely not for my bank account... ;-) And also recently got some duds... but I think that's part of the trade.

I'm very much impressed by the "confusing" blade as it is an exceptional example of genuine Afghan (I assume) craftmanship. Of course it isn't displaying the skill one can see in the Persian or Indian blades, but it definitely is the work of a quite skilled local swordsmith. Making such a pattern welded blade is no small acomplishment!

Regards,

Marius

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ibrahiim and thank you for the explanations but I don't see any slots with the "tears of the wounded," only fullers.
:shrug:

I also think the appearance of wootz is given by very fine pattern welding since the streaks of patternig are much too long and run more or less paralel to eachother. :shrug:


I confess to not knowing what style of wootz is the blade...maybe as you point out.

The pearl slots are empty...but the access holes into which the pearls are placed are visible... I assume the pearls fell out of this one...

[Jens Nordlunde]

I cant see where the steel bearings/perls/rubies should be added, and there they should have rolled.
If they had been there, it would have been very clear to see where the bearings once had rolled.
Mostly the bearings were added from the top of the blade, and the holes sealed, before the hilt was mounted. The bearings could also be added from the back of the blade, near the hilt. A small hole was drilled, the bearings added, and the hole closed with a screw or sealed.

[mariusgmioc]

I confess to not knowing what style of wootz is the blade...maybe as you point out.

The pearl slots are empty...but the access holes into which the pearls are placed are visible... I assume the pearls fell out of this one...

Hello Ibrahiim,

I think you are taking the round technological holes at the endings of the fullers as access holes. If you examine the photos more carefully, you may notice there is absolutely no space in the fullers to hold anything, and the round holes at the end of the fullers where made there simply to facilitate the chiseling of the fullers and give them a round, well defined and precise ending. When chiselling the fullers, it is very easy to precisely control the starting point as it is the point where you place the chisel and start applying the force. However, it is rather difficult to control the ending point since the application of force on the chisel cannot be stopped with sufficient precision. Therefore, the necessity to have some holes drilled where the fullers should end, in order to use them as "chisel stoppers." That's why the fullers have those holes at only one end. Of course the problem of giving the fuller a precise stop can also be handled by starting the chiselling from both ends.

Another explanation may be that the fullers were not chiseled at all but they were milled along the blade with a rotating power tool. In that case, the holes would mark the entry point of the milling cutter. If this is the case, then the whole blade is nothing but a modern reproduction...

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

Besides, the grooves for the "tears of the wounded" were normally chisseld through the whole thickness of the blade, so they were piercing the blade from side to side.

Regards,

Marius

[estcrh]

Tears of the wounded.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ibrahiim,

I think you are taking the round technological holes at the endings of the fullers as access holes. If you examine the photos more carefully, you may notice there is absolutely no space in the fullers to hold anything, and the round holes at the end of the fullers where made there simply to facilitate the chiseling of the fullers and give them a round, well defined and precise ending. When chiselling the fullers, it is very easy to precisely control the starting point as it is the point where you place the chisel and start applying the force. However, it is rather difficult to control the ending point since the application of force on the chisel cannot be stopped with sufficient precision. Therefore, the necessity to have some holes drilled where the fullers should end, in order to use them as "chisel stoppers." That's why the fullers have those holes at only one end. Of course the problem of giving the fuller a precise stop can also be handled by starting the chiselling from both ends.

Another explanation may be that the fullers were not chiseled at all but they were milled along the blade with a rotating power tool. In that case, the holes would mark the entry point of the milling cutter. If this is the case, then the whole blade is nothing but a modern reproduction...

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

Besides, the grooves for the "tears of the wounded" were normally chisseld through the whole thickness of the blade, so they were piercing the blade from side to side.

Regards,

Marius


I don't quite follow your theory on the fake nature of the blade...The slots are hand grouted thus not 100% aligned. I will place tears of the wounded ...blades ...below ... Thank you for the post...very interesting. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6912

[estcrh]

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.

[mariusgmioc]

I believe that the grooves were milled with a rotating mill mounted in a hand held power tool or the rotating mill was mounted in a fixed drilling/milling machine, and the blade was moved along the machine table.

That's why the inconsistecy in the depth of the grooves and that's why they are not straight. Last, not least, that's why you have the round entry points of the milling tool at the beginning of the grooves.

It is very easy to chisel straight grooves, and it is very easy to control their depth if you chisel them by hand. The natural movement of the chisel is in straight lines, and you can repeat the chiselling operation until you reach the desired depth.

Try doing the same with a small ball-point end-mill mounted in a hand held power tool and you will know what I mean!

I may not know much about antique weapons but I certainly know something about mechanical machining. ;)

[mariusgmioc]

No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

:shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Sometimes the slots were in the hilt... :shrug:

[mariusgmioc]

Sometimes the slots were in the hilt... :shrug:

Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!

:)

Do you have a photo of the whole thing?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!

:)

Do you have a photo of the whole thing?

YES A SERIES OF PICTURES IS AT http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/indian-ivory-hilted-khanjar-dagger-with-wootz-steel-blade-and-tears-of-the-wounded-balls-in-the-hilt

[mariusgmioc]

YES A SERIES OF PICTURES IS AT http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/indian-ivory-hilted-khanjar-dagger-with-wootz-steel-blade-and-tears-of-the-wounded-balls-in-the-hilt

Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!

I suspect that the main reason for this development was based on superstition / tradition and that it was rather more a parade decorative device than anything else...

[estcrh]

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

:shrug:
See anything that looks remotely new here?

[ariel]

It IS old :-)))))))

[mariusgmioc]

See anything that looks remotely new here?

I guess you are right. The scabbard looks old, but I assume leather can be easily aged. Just bake it a little.

The steel of the hilt also appears to be artificially aged with spots of very recent and active red rust.

I also stand by my conclusion that the blade is a dud. And I explained why.

Try chiseling a straight groove and a curved one and will see what I mean. You basically have to struggle a lot with the chisel if you purportedly want curved grooves like those on the blade. Straight grooves come out naturally.

Moreover, in order to mill the grooves the way they are, the steel of the blade has to be very soft to the point of being iron and that's why I think this blade couldn't stand a single blow without bending.

I would like to hear the opinion of a skilled bladesmith in this matter.

[mariusgmioc]

I suspect that the main reason for this development was based on superstition / tradition and that it was rather more a parade decorative device than anything else...

Of course they were not intended for fighting weapons. Think only how difficult would have been their maintenance once the blade gets soaked in blood.

[mariusgmioc]

It IS old :-)))))))

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!

[estcrh]

It IS old :-)))))))Yes, old, nothing new about it at all.

[estcrh]

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!
Much older, your letting your original suspicion (not a bad thing) keep you from seeing that there is no aspect of this sword and scabbard which shows anything other than extreme age, 19th century at least...in my opinion. The rust is localised to specific areas, not unusual at all. The rivets are worn, no sign of being removed, the resin is obviously old, the brass / gold inserts all along the spine are worn, not intact and new.

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you for the photos!

Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure!

Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool.

Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily?

:shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Unlike other regions India was slow into the business of faking age on weapons. Like all weapons it is far better to have the thing in your hands in assessing real or not. I have to say, however, that looking at the wear, rust and patina in these pictures that this looks like mid 19th century or earlier... It is naturally worn... I see no sharp edges and the overall smooth, even wear seems to me quite original. I can imagine that when it was newer the pearl or steel ball inserts would travel up and down the slots but that fair wear and tear has rendered the grooves unusable ... The Chinese were making this style in the 17thn C and it is suggested that it was something they copied from India and Persia. Certainly there are plenty of examples from those regions. Great discussion ...Thanks.

Please see http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html

I place a Mughal dagger from a finished auction below...Quote" A Mughal kard with the 'Tears of the Wounded'
18th century
The 11 1/2 inch single edged wootz blade of substantial weight and showing a fine ladder pattern; offset slots inlet on either side inserted with fresh water pearls, the Tears of the Wounded. Fluted spine chiseled with a scroll work panel at the base. Integral bolster inlaid in gold, the peony meander pattern reserved in steel. One-piece water buffalo horn grip with flat silver-plated pommel cap set with a grooved red coral cabochon in the Ottoman style.
Condition: Blade showing a strong watered pattern with series of scratches. Grip probably replaced during period of use". Unquote.

[mariusgmioc]

As Ibrahiim points out, all edges of the grooves appear rounded like after long wear... yet you have the inlays in pretty good condition...

Well... not really... so don't mind this last comment. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

As Ibrahiim points out, all edges of the grooves appear rounded like after long wear... yet you have the inlays in pretty good condition...

Well... not really... so don't mind this last comment. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

I don't see any problem disagreeing here ...so I do... The inlays are pretty ropy typically, after time ...and I see no dodgy aspect on this weapon at all... Its not easy spotting fakes as many museums have found out... but in my view this is a genuine article not played with and dating to at least the mid 19th C... probably earlier....and actually supported in its earlier potential provenance by the inlay which shows a lot of life... :shrug:

[ariel]

Marius,

Many old Afghan blades have grooves exactly like that.
I am at work now, but will check my collection.

Grooves like that were cut with very hard chisels all over the world. The round mark at the beginning of the groove is just a convenient starting point. I agree that the steadiness of hand was not exemplary, but we are not talking Assadullah here, this is a creation of a simple Afghani blacksmith making simple Afghani swords for simple Afghani slashing. Not exquisite, but perfectly sufficient for butchering a feringhi:-)) Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that Eric is absolutely correct: it is a genuinely old blade, 19 century at the latest.


Of course, leather might be newer: scabbards did not survive very long in the field, Russian army regulations specified exchange of scabbards every 3 years. Professional fakers from India and Georgia routinely present artificially-aged leather scabbards: they do not look 1% as convincing as this one. While it is possible to fake the mastique, I certainly would like to know how to do it: it looks awfully old.

My bottom line: 100% genuine, 100% old.

[mariusgmioc]

Your arguments appear to hold well, and I trust you guys are more experienced than me (it would be hard not to).

However, you have seen my arguments and explanations from the mechanical point of view. And unless I have another good explanation on how those grooves were made, I will still be convinced it is a recent fake. :cool:

The argument there are many blades with grooves like this is not very valid as
1. maybe there aren't that many
2. maybe all that are, are fakes.

Indians started faking weapons since 19th century.

Anyhow it would be quite boring if we all agree... right?! ;)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...The two swords at the top can be seen sold on https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/42954068_two-antique-polawar-afghan-swords


In respect of the lower pictures against a black backdrop ~The webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/

Quote" Pulouar Sword

Dated: circa 1676 - 1725
Culture: Indian/Afghan
Medium: steel, gold
Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm

The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge.

Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote.

[mariusgmioc]

I have a few pictures to compare with the #1 sword...the webpage says at http://honoomasamune.tumblr.com/

Quote" Pulouar Sword

Dated: circa 1676 - 1725
Culture: Indian/Afghan
Medium: steel, gold
Measurements: overall length 97 cm; blade length 83 cm

The Pulouar is an Afghan sword, also used in India, a variant of the Tulwar. It always displays a short guard, curved in the direction of the blade, and a hemispheric pommel without a counter guard. This piece displays a blade in watered steel, curved and with a slight wave in its double edge.

Near the hilt a golden cartouche is desplayed with the following inscription: “Akbar Sha al-Sultan Mirza”. The hilt, also in steel, displays a spherical pommel completely covered in an engraved web motif and geometrical patterns. The hand guard features a delicate swan head on the pommel, also engraved, an inscription with the “Ali”, followed by the sentence “nasr min Allah wa il-fath qrabi.”Unquote.

Thank you very much... again for the photos!
Mine is definitely much younger. Maybe 19th century...

[Bob A]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi, thank you for the link to the Caravana collection. I have yet to explore it in any depth, but even a cursory scan is enough to appreciate its value. Breathtaking stuff, the existence of which amazes and confounds.

Much appreciated.

[ariel]

Here is one of my pulouars.
The other one is wootz, but the blade is flat, with no grooves.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding comments and discussion!
On the 'tears of the wounded' and other descriptions of these blade channels holding bearings, it seems generally held that these were typically 'court or parade' weapons. I have seen references suggesting that these channels would likely compromise the blade in combat situations, though I am sure that might be contested.
The term 'pearls' is figurative as these are typically metal bearings.

It is great to see these examples of 'paluoar' in their original rugged condition, which to me truly holds the intrinsic frontier character of the regions from which they come.

While it is tempting to consider the often crude nature of some of the components and blades of many of these swords as 'fakery', it must be remembered that frontier armourers often used whatever items and skills however limited, to create arms for tribal use.

While it seems these were indeed originating from some time in the 18th century, the scabbard with the asymmetrical carry rings (one on scabbard front) is similar to the latter 19th century Anglo-Afghan military swords.
The parabolic Persian type shamshir blade on the example Ariel shows reflects the profound preference toward many Persian arms in these regions.

[ariel]

I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one

Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

[estcrh]

Here is one of my pulouars.
The other one is wootz, but the blade is flat, with no grooves.
Ariel, this is very close to the one I posted, the same type of radical curve and the cut grooves, thanks to posting it.

[mariusgmioc]

Ariel, this is very close to the one I posted, the same type of radical curve and the cut grooves, thanks to posting it.

Undoubtedly chiseled by hand.

They are straight (more or less) albeit irregular and crudely made. They definitely don't have the curves with very short curvature radius and the drilled holes at the beginning of the groove. Nor they display the obvious variation in depth.

Completely different stuff than the grooves in question. The grooves are not remotely close.

[Jim McDougall]

I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one

Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

Obviously I know the treatise. Actually I have one of these Anglo-Afghan military swords, which has the familiar Mazir I Sharif (Mashin Khana) stamp and is dated 1893. It seems the date range of examples of these are in 1890s, and these were used even later.

I recall finding the image of Mohammed Yakub Khan in the book "Northwest Frontier" by Swinson many years ago, and indeed he is wearing a sword with remarkably similar hilt.

The paper sought to discover, much as I had, to find the origin of these distinctly European military styled hilts, and that date seemed to place the earliest, though the Mashin Khana examples seem not to occur until later than the 1879 date. So where did that hilt which is in the 1879 photo come from? and why did it not appear in production until advent of that Kabul armoury?

It seems that tribal 'Khybers' (salwars) occurred in the interim between 1879 and the noted inception of the Mashin Khana factory with these hilts, but likely quite near it as many of them have the stamp known used by it. At this time, the heavy channeled military type blades began being placed on these. It is believed these 'military' hilted Khybers were probably for some of the tribal levy's in British service in these times.

An interesting aside to looking more into the equally and often misperceived paluoars . I guess we here are sort of Darwinian sword whisperers:)

[estcrh]

Undoubtedly chiseled by hand.

They are straight (more or less) albeit irregular and crudely made. They definitely don't have the curves with very short curvature radius and the drilled holes at the beginning of the groove. Nor they display the obvious variation in depth.

Completely different stuff than the grooves in question. The grooves are not remotely close.
Different sword smiths using different designs and techniques, both similar, you just do not see may pulwars that look like these ones, I am sure there are more out there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To magnify and examine The Ethnographic I saw some early photos; Illustrating Afghan swords...The sketch shows some Baluch and Afghan irregulars... armed.... with everything!

Below this the largest/longest photo stars Yakub Khan at the centre with the description below. (The smaller photo of one of his officers is included separately to view better the sword.) For interest The small black and white picture shows the camp at Safed Sang.


Quote from....https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yaqub_Khan_with_his_officers.jpg

Group. The Amir Yakub Khan & sirdars of Kabul [At Safed Sang].

Photograph featuring Yakub Khan, the Amir of Afghanistan, seated in the centre, and his officers, taken in May 1879 by John Burke at Safed Sang in Afghanistan. The six foot tall Daoud Shah, from the Ghilzai tribe, his commander-in-chief, sits at the Amir's right. To the Amir's left is Habibullah Khan, the moustafi or prime minister. Burke accompanied British forces into Afghanistan in 1878 and covered the events of the Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-80), becoming the first significant photographer of the country and its people in the process. The British, having defeated the Amir Sher Ali's forces, wintered in Jalalabad, waiting for the new Amir Yakub Khan to accept their terms and conditions. One of the key figures in the negotiations was the military administrator Pierre Louis Napoleon Cavagnari (1841-1879), a half-Irish, half-Italian aristocrat who was appointed as emissary by the Viceroy Lord Lytton.

In May 1879, Yakub Khan travelled to Gandamak, a village just outside Jalalabad and entered into negotiations with Cavagnari as a result of which the Treaty of Gandamak was signed whereby the Amir ceded territories to the British and accepted a British envoy in Kabul. Cavagnari took up the post of British Resident in Kabul in July 1879. He was known to be reckless and arrogant rather than discreet and his role as envoy was viewed as injudicious even by some of the British.

The situation in Kabul was tense and eventually some Afghan troops who had not been paid by the Amir rebelled and attacked the Residency, killing Cavagnari and his mission in September 1879. The war was far from over despite the treaty and British troops were recalled over the mountains to occupy Kabul, secure it and launch punitive action against the Afghans.

Yakub Khan abdicated, taking refuge in the British camp and was subsequently sent to India in December."Unquote.

[mahratt]

I remember a treatise on the origins of the Afghani " regulation khyber", where this and similar examples were presented as the very last step in the purported "evolution" and attributed to the very last years of the 19th century, the ultimate achievement of the Mashin Khana that was established in 1887. Ironically, the very same communication showed a photograph of a gentleman named Mohammed Yakub Khan dated 1879 carrying a similar sword. Thus, the supposedly final evolutionary step was in fact the earliest one

Darwin would have had a fit:-)))

I advise you to read the article again. Sword Yakub Khan - it's not "regulation Khyber knife".

[Jim McDougall]

My apologies, my notes on the photo I referred to were incorrect.
What I meant was the photo by John Burke at the signing if the Treaty of Gandamak, 26 May, 1879.
King Mohammed Yaqub Khan seated at center, on his left is Daoud Shah, his commander in chief......and my notation was to the distinct style of his hilt with the open parallel bar knuckleguard, recurved terminal at top.

It is thought that this hilt was possibly a prototype for the military style hilts which were to be produced at the Mashin Khana at Kabul in the early 1890s.
As seen in other photos, this style hilt is also to be found on the traditional Khyber blades, often with the 'Mazir I Sharif' stamp of Mashin Khana.
The heavily channeled European style blade (also pictured) became the more regularly produced model into turn of the century. Later many of the hilts were in brass, but with this distinctive 'bayonet style' hilt.

It seems that these Khyber bladed examples with military style hilts as pictured, may have been for some of the tribal levy's using traditional blades but with these Anglo-Afghan hilts.

The styling of the slotted knuckle guard seems to correspond to some styling on a number of paluoars as well as tulwars from these regions in the Northwest Frontier into Afghanistan.

The theme of the paper discussed the integration of the traditional blades and military style hilts as well as seeking the origins of the design, with the example of similar style in the sword of Daoud Shah in 1879 representing earliest known placement of its form. As I understood the title noting 'regulation Khyber' referred to the development of these military Afghan swords as well as their use with traditional Khyber blades in the tribal contingents .

[ariel]

This is true Jim: Afghanis were trying to mass produce their traditional Khybers at the Mashin Khana and to give them some European look( D guard). The upper one you have shown is an example. At the same time the mass-produced ones started using cheap materiel, - wood, - for the handles and got rid of any artistic elements present at the older handmade one. In a way, it was similar to what happened with Caucasian shashkas: the Russians appropriated it as their regulation weapon and modified it to the point of converting a beautiful native weapon into pretty ugly European-looking saber without the handguard ( the only homage to the original Caucasian inspiration in addition to the imitation of an eared pommel).

But the last one you have shown that was also carried by Yakub Khan has nothing to do with the Khyber: both the handle and the blade are European, and the blades on different examples were of a variety of patterns, none of which had anything to do with the original Khybers. The Yakub Khan's one was in existence well before the establishment of Mashin Khan. Those were just colonial models.

There was no evolution of Khybers : just a short-lived and unsuccessful attempt at mass production. And the purported "final step" of the presumed evolutionary process had nothing to do with the original model. As they say: true, true and unrelated.

[mahratt]

This is called - look but do not see.

I have to repeat again, Yakub Khan sword is different from the regulation Khyber knife. And I wrote about it in the article:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17522&highlight=regular+khyber

"Evolution" regulation Khyber knife is not only to acquire the shackle guard.

But numismatists - can not understand ...

[ariel]

Well, I just have to draw attention of any interested Forumite to :


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17522&highlight=regular+khyber

Posts ##11 and 12.


In the first one, the author shows 3 Afghani swords, from a mass-produced industrial copy of a real native khyber, with a typical blade and slightly modified handle down to the one with a typical British colonial handle and a European ( or, at the very least, Europe inspired) blade. The author then presents these models as " transitional steps in the evolution of the Khyber from Ethnic to the Regulation"

In the next post, the same author proposes to re-name " the Afghan Military Sword to Afghan Military (or Regulation) Khyber".

I think the message of the treatise was perfectly clear and unequivocal. The author was, indeed, within his rights to propose this classification. This does not mean that others have no right to question his conclusions.

I would submit that we are talking about 2 different items: attempted industrial modification of the native Afghani Khyber on the one hand and an unrelated short sword of a European pattern. The only thing that somehow may put them in the same box is the fact that all of them are short-bladed sidearms.


I am also slightly confused about the "numismatics" remark: does the author have any coins to bolster his conclusions? I'd love to see them.

[Jim McDougall]

Its always good to revisit old threads often even years later, as our knowledge base and ongoing research often offers new perspectives.
This is especially the case with knowledgeable and specialized writers such as Ariel and Mahratt, and I can only present my own understandings of the article and these weapons.

From what I learned, the sword worn by Daoud Shah in the 1879 photo was key in looking into the potential development of the Afghan 'regulation' short sword of the 1890s into around 1900+. Actually the only suggestion of regulation propriety was made by Oriental Arms at some point years ago and now notes misplaced.

What was significant was the appearance of the hilt on his sword which had slotted guard and rolled back terminal near pommel. Since this was 1879, and he certainly had the sword for a nominal period prior, we wonder if this suggested a larger presence of these type hilts pre Mashin Khana. While that state arsenal began in Kabul in 1887, tooling and production began in the early 1890s. My example of one of the 'regulation short swords' is dated 1893 if I recall.

The Dauod Shah sword seems to have a solid grip hilt, unlike the Mashin Khana examples which are admittedly workmanlike and austere. I would submit here that the primary arms production of the Mashin Khana was fireams, specifically current issue Enfields, and note the compelling appearance of these 'regulation' hilts to that of 'sword' bayonets.

The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife.
The text of the article addresses this comparatively, but does not mean to suggest that the tribal form of Khyber ('silawar') was 'regulation' BUT that it was contemporary to the production military type short swords which ostensibly were.

The example of the 'colonial' hilt worn by Daoud Shah was the key instance in the search for the development of this hilt form, which was indeed European IN FORM but clearly was produced in Afghan or local regions.

I could find no evidence of this kind of military hilt in either British production sources (including Enfield who indeed did import in degree from Solingen) nor the German sources.

I think the 'nusimatic' reference had to do with study on the Mazir i Sharif or Royal state stamp or device, which was keyed on the coins of the time. The presence of these stamps on both 'regulation' military form swords as well as on examples of the tribal Khybers with military hilts, was instrumental in establishing probable dates for examples in this study.

The term 'Khyber' was used mostly as an implied vernacular term for the military type short swords in tandem with the concurrently used tribal versions with the same hilt.

There is no known existing 'regulation ' for the military type Mashin Khana short sword, any more than any established for the use of the term 'Khyber' for the tribal swords which are actually known locally as 'siliwars'.
Further they are not KNIVES nor YATAGHANS!

Therefore the study aims to show more of a colloquially termed pairing of these edged weapons in their Afghan context of the times.

[ariel]

The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife.
.

Exactly my point. The article was carefully researched and the description of the actual objects was exemplary. However, it was based on a wrong premise, tried to forcibly prove an incorrect hypothesis and inevitably reached a wrong conclusion.
There was no evolution. It was not even parallel development ( if by that we mean independent creation of virtually identical constructions). We are talking about 2 different short sidearms present in Afghanistan at the same time period.

[ariel]

The variety of Afghani short sabers was very wide: the blades, the handles, the manner of carrying.
They were no more "regulation" than khybers of different varieties, and the name of those was legion:-)

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the additional images Ariel.

I would like to note that I personally feel responsible in the case of the titling and premise of this article. Actually I participated in editing and constructing the text of the original article which was written by Mahratt, at his request as he was concerned with semantics and language issues.
As I had researched these swords many years before, I should have been able to suggest revisions in the overall premise and text, but being impressed with the volume and character of his research and work inadvertently did not.

In all, as noted previously, the Khyber short swords were not regulation in the true sense, simply notable present in consistency in military context.
The traditional Khyber was interpolated in the mix, with the expected array of variations in all of these in a colonial setting.

The article in and of itself, still carries an impressive insight into the Anglicization of Afghan edged weapons of these times, and the use of the royal arsenal stamp and Mashin Khana factory.

Here, I would suggest we leave the Khyber sword and knife aspects and return to the paluoar as in the original post.
This deviation in the discussion does serve as interesting perspective with associations to the paluoar as these weapons were all contemporary and truly offers certain dimension to the times and place where these were used.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !! :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[ariel]

Jim,
I also feel in part responsible: at Mahratt's request I translated this essay into English. I also did not provide my comments about its fatal logical error. Sorry.
There is a lesson for both of us: if we are asked to assist in any way to a young and academically-inexperienced Forumite, we should not be shy to offer constructive critique. The same applies to all our comments: it is not productive just to applaud politely but insincerely: the whole purpose of intellectual exchange is in perfecting a worthy message and rejecting wrong conclusions.
Learning is possible only if a learner is willing to listen to critique and accept it. It would be nice to learn from somebody else's mistakes , but realistically it is our own ones that give us real knowledge and understanding. Some people do not take well to criticism ( no matter how polite and constructive it might be), and those, IMHO, are hopeless.

But back to the Pulouars ( dang, what is the right way to spell this word?:-))))

Here is my other one: brass-inlaid handle, groove-less blade with no Indian ricasso, but with wootz and unusual scabbard stitching: teeny-tiny nails.

[ariel]

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !! :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

I agree... I ought to add a caveat that the Afghan swords at #64 and the Pulouir style had knuckle guards of a similar type at the top near the Pommel finished in a sort of Goose Neck finial. The project swords have similar finials... It seems the Tulvar and Pulouir are very similar so it may not be surprising that they have similar finials also...This birdhead is certainly sophisticated and mirrors what we learn of Jehangir who personally designed many of these himself.

I should add this ... Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id=un4WcfEASZwC&pg=RA1-PA342&lpg=RA1-PA342&dq=Jehangir+designed+sword+hilts&source=bl&ots=K837V5W2pa&sig=3Qb3SfwWAFWs4Vj1fdMMWE8fpn0&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Jehangir%20designed%20sword%20hilts&f=false where it is clear that Ottoman hilts copied Mughal form on swords and daggers.

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel,
I was not aware of that, and thank you for acknowledging your part in this situation. I would agree that we indeed should be cautious in our involvement assistance with these kinds of matters, but I would not consider Mahratt inexperienced academically or otherwise. He compiled some impressive data and research to include in the article. It was more a matter of language and syntax in the construction of the article, and it seems these kinds of misalignments are often the crux of misunderstandings.
Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years.

I think it is good that we can clarify some of these aspects of these interesting edged weapons which are in the spectrum of Afghan arms.
I agree, let us continue.......and further, I have no idea of the correct spelling of paluoar(?) :) but ?

Ibrahiim, indeed astutely observed on the gooseneck style of the guard, which is tempting in qualifying certain Afghan weapons. This feature, is well known on paluoars, these 'military hilts' and other weapons of northern India. This recurved guard is well known on various Indian tulwar forms, but here I must note it is equally present on many into the Deccan and southern regions. These influences are much too reciprocally diffused throughout Central Asia to depend on them for regional classification, however they can be considered as compelling evidence where certain consistancies are found.

It is evident that this Central Asian feature with Ottoman influences well established is something that might be considered to be prevalent through Mughal channels.

[estcrh]

Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. Jim, I never would have guessed if you did not say it yourself!!

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, I never would have guessed if you did not say it yourself!!

Thank you so much Eric, that is a most kind thing to say !

[ariel]

Ariel,

Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years.



There are as many ways to skin a cat just as to become a true academic researcher:-)


Education in a particular discipline is important and necessary only in certain cases requiring certification . But Georg Mendel discovered laws of heredity without ever getting any formal biological education. And how many weapon historians and researchers had formal degree in that discipline? Stone was just a metallurgist dealing with non-ferrous alloys:-) Buttin? As a matter of fact, virtually all important contributions into that field were done by the individuals without any specific formal education in weaponry as such.

What you had, Jim, was your ability and willingness to learn, listen to opinions of experienced people, readiness to discard your own biases, honesty in admitting your errors, respect for books and people and honing your skills in asking the right questions and formulating supportable answers.

That's all what was needed to become "Google" Mc Dougall :-)

I would venture to say that any reasonably intelligent person can become a true "academic" researcher in our field that blissfully does not have formal education and curriculum requirements. We are all autodidacts.

On the other hand, absence of any condition stated above would be a fatal flaw, permanently disqualifying a person from becoming a true researcher.

[kronckew]

ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.

the prescription for ignorance is learning; education by teachers with open minds and the ability to accept ideas from others, testing them, and by your own research, self-education and experience. learning is also making mistakes and eventually not making the same ones. you are not ignorant if you have learned as much as you can and keep trying to exceed your limitations, no matter what your IQ. formal education can actually be a hindrance.

the prescription for stupidity is euthanasia; chlorinating the gene pool for the sake of the rest of us and the future. sadly too many of us, mostly politicians, seem incapable of even accepting that much change. they seem to revel in and enjoy their status quo. the occasional one gets a bit of enlightenment and resigns before the stuff hits the fan.

p.s. - there is a cure for all this off topic maudlin pedantry: it's called 'Beer', sadly not available to all. occasionally a good quinta port works well too, as fernando may be able to confirm.

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel, your most kind words are so welcomed, and only surpassed by the eloquence in the way you have expressed them. I hope others will be inspired to follow them as well, as they are so true.
I sincerely thank you.

What is most important is that all of us here have different styles, levels of learning, fields of study and pretty much an infinite spectrum of personalities. All we need is to put them all together and continue to learn together, and the possibilities to advance all our knowledge is endless.

Kronckew, very well said........lets all have a beer!!!
and get back to palouars (or whatever they are) etc. !!!!:)

You guys are all the best!

[ariel]

Well, boys, if you have a chance to get a bottle of "Two-hearted ale" from Bell's Brewery in Kalamazoo, you will get addicted to the best IPA you will ever taste....

Sorry, just had to spread the good word. All non-Michiganders need to get educated about the best things in life.

Back to the sharpies!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

All in the name of education... :)

[kronckew]

:)

education, of course. i'm still occasionally researching for a paper on comparative beer tasteology rankings. there are some local craft micro-breweries here. i prefer the stouts and porters now, more flavour.

one of the best beers i recall was a locally brewed heiniken i had at amman airport waiting to change planes. 1st real beer after my first year in saudi. also stopped in munich, had some admittedly better beers there, but...that 1st one was special.

what has this to do with sharp pointies? nothing...everything.

win one glorious golden 'attaboy' if you can guess who said those last two words, where and when.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:)

education, of course. i'm still occasionally researching for a paper on comparative beer tasteology rankings. there are some local craft micro-breweries here. i prefer the stouts and porters now, more flavour.

one of the best beers i recall was a locally brewed heiniken i had at amman airport waiting to change planes. 1st real beer after my first year in saudi. also stopped in munich, had some admittedly better beers there, but...that 1st one was special.

what has this to do with sharp pointies? nothing...everything.

win one glorious golden 'attaboy' if you can guess who said those last two words, where and when.

Plato.

[kronckew]

nope, a man playing a well known kurdish military leader in a recent epic.

a further hint: he had just been asked 'what is jerusalem worth?'.

[Rick]

K.O.H.
Saladin, standing before the walls of Jerusalem.
I loved how he clenched his fist when he said 'everything'.

[kronckew]

K.O.H.
Saladin, standing before the walls of Jerusalem.
I loved how he clenched his fist when he said 'everything'.

give the man a seegar! you are awarded one golden attaboy, which when presented at any pub, bar, or tavern may be exchanged for the right to purchase a pint of your favourite tipple at the establishment's normal price. subject to terms and conditions. acceptability may vary. subject to local, state, and national taxes as governed by the applicable laws. no smoking allowed in public places. you must be over the age of 18.

ghassan massoud in a fine depiction of saladin in KOH as he walks away from belial after the surrender.

a favourite movie with realistic costumes and equipment - for hollywoodland at least. they even used riveted mail in the closeups. (cue arguement as to whether or not it was round or wedge rivets :)) shame someone shot him in the head from underneath with a white arrow in his moment of glory. :shrug: seems to survive tho.

[Jim McDougall]

OK ya lot of suds sodden characters!!! :)
and right Rick, in Knights of Heaven.....excellent !

So back to the pointed things......

Here is a great tulwar which Gav had,believed of northern regions in India, this determined by a number of paluoar characteristics such as striations in the pommel etc .Note the slotted knuckleguard, not only found on a good number of paluoars but on the Afghan military hilt in discussion.

With that recurved gooseneck, swan neck (often I have seen the term 'water bird') feature at the terminal at pommel, it seems Pant attributed tulwars with this feature to Banswara in Rajasthan. However that may of course be equally diffused to many other instances as specific regional classifications are usually speculative at best without exact provenance.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

OK ya lot of suds sodden characters!!! :)
and right Rick, in Knights of Heaven.....excellent !

So back to the pointed things......

Here is a great tulwar which Gav had,believed of northern regions in India, this determined by a number of paluoar characteristics such as striations in the pommel etc .Note the slotted knuckleguard, not only found on a good number of paluoars but on the Afghan military hilt in discussion.

With that recurved gooseneck, swan neck (often I have seen the term 'water bird') feature at the terminal at pommel, it seems Pant attributed tulwars with this feature to Banswara in Rajasthan. However that may of course be equally diffused to many other instances as specific regional classifications are usually speculative at best without exact provenance.

Salaams Jim, This is a great subject and in viewing the various swan neck types I noted a great variety on both dagger and sword hilts in both Indian and Afghan weapons not surprising from the geographical viewpoint and their close history. Some weapons have elaborate finials but some also seen below have none. Naturally a great number enter the realms of high class bling because of the Jehangir and his association with his own personal designs and those of his many Royal Mughul workshops...in what is almost a fashion statement in Jade and Neophrite etc. Note also the variation where the swan neck can evolve from teardrop or bud through swan neck to serpent like finial. Well noted is the swan neck as seen at #64. above. :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.


Thank you for the post Jim; The industrial make of the Afghan weapon certainly ruled out any traditional fashion statement although it can be seen as a reflection in the goosehead style of finial as a tiny vestige of what went before..I completely support the bud...probably as you say a lotus bud ~ and it may be related to the name Tulvar or Pulvar as Pul and Tul mean flower... though it is an outside shot. I actually considered the dish pommel as a floral form and had considered that as indicative of the name...

One system I have held back in joining the flux is the Sri Lankan form where dragons abound but they are probably related...and seen below as examples.

[ariel]

OK, just as an afterthought: re. " Afghani regulation khybers".
By definition, " regulation weapon" is a highly standardized one, manufactured in bulk, according to a design approved by a central authority and ( very often) at the same factory.
In short, a large mass of identical twins.
Here are two allegedly " regulation khybers"

One has two grooves, another has one. One blade has a stamp on the ricasso and is numbered another does not. One has a shield-like languet, another does not.The D-guards are of a different contours.

The conclusion is inescapable: there is nothing " regulation" here. Just a similar idea expressed in different " languages" with different parts including imported blades, with or without governmental stamps at a defined position.

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

[DaveS]

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

[mariusgmioc]

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

Hello Dave,

You are right... providing that you don't use a hand-held drilling machine fit with a milling cutter, or providing that you use a milling machine with good, not worn, vertical positioning control.

:shrug:

[estcrh]

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)I see nothing in common, perhaps they were a progression from the khyber knife but that does not make them related at all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The whole thing with these bayonet like hilted short swords is that they are primarily the product of a military arsenal at Machin Khana in Kabul, and the only connection to the tribal 'salawar' sword is that a good number of these tribal swords were mounted with these military style hilts. The fact that the well known state seal with Mosque at Mazir I Sharif is seen on these in many cases, suggests that these may have been furbished in this manner for some of the tribal levys which served in auxiliary capacity with British Army in these regions.

This does not mean these were TRANSITIONAL, simply variations for such use.

It may be remembered that the great clue to the stamp on these weapons was due to someone spotting the stamp on Afghanistans coins being identical...and that the mistake in thinking they were done in an actual fictional other location.

Thus other than carrying a strike mark done at Kabul there is no link with these two weapons. :shrug:

[ariel]

Ibrahiim,
Please note that on of the two swords shown by me has an arsenal stamp and another does not ( it's other side is also blank, I was just saving space). Also look at post #64: there is such a bewildering variety of these swords that any idea of them being "regulation" or even made at the same place becomes improbable. Also note the absense of a langet on one of them. And, BTW, do we really know that ANY of them were made at Mashin Khana? Any documentary evidence of an approved design, manufacturing order or other written confirmation?



In any research endeavor assembly and verification of facts go first. Only if the facts are strong enough can one summarize them into a plausible idea. In this case it was done in reverse with fully predictable results. Reminds me of an old story about a renown sniper: each and every bullet hole was right in the center of a target. Only he shot first, and drew the " bullseye" around the hole later:-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
Please note that on of the two swords shown by me has an arsenal stamp and another does not ( it's other side is also blank, I was just saving space). Also look at post #64: there is such a bewildering variety of these swords that any idea of them being "regulation" or even made at the same place becomes improbable. Also note the absense of a langet on one of them. And, BTW, do we really know that ANY of them were made at Mashin Khana? Any documentary evidence of an approved design, manufacturing order or other written confirmation?



In any research endeavor assembly and verification of facts go first. Only if the facts are strong enough can one summarize them into a plausible idea. In this case it was done in reverse with fully predictable results. Reminds me of an old story about a renown sniper: each and every bullet hole was right in the center of a target. Only he shot first, and drew the " bullseye" around the hole later:-)

From http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afghanistan/mashin-khana/ I Quote"
Mashin Khana

The state arsenal and factory in Kabul had a narrow gauge “portable railway” supplied by Leeds company John Fowler & Co.1 Fowler produced 60 cm gauge portable light railway equipment, initially under an agreement with French engineer Paul Decauville.

The Kabul factory known as the Mashin Khana (machine house) was established by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, with Englishman Thomas Salter Pyne as his engineering advisor. Pyne had previously been an overseas representative of Fowler, and later received British and Afghan honours for diplomatic work.

Books could probably be written both about the factory, which was the amir’s attempt to buy-in an industrial revolution, and about Salter Pyne himself. As it is, little has turned up about the railway so far."Unquote.

You describe well in your second paragraph the situation in and around the farcical accounting (corruption) in the Mashin Khana which having been imposed on the Kabul and Afghanistan population as a sort of social experiment actually destroyed almost entirely the Bazaar and hand made processes built up after generations of development ... On reflection and having been in Kabul I recall being completely puzzled at the expectation of seeing masses of hand made items of artisans down the ages and being confronted with the skeletal remains of what was left... On closer inspection what was left was virtually nothing...some hand made carpets from distant regions ...the odd carving...antiques that were 99% junk...and on researching why it became clear that to a huge degree it was all gone..and the state factories had done their job long ago...and of course decades of strife in a war torn country. The Mashin Khana destroyed much of the hand made objects entirely.

I would agree there is probably no trace of any records...The Mashin Khana itself has gone...but in its day I can well see how daggers and anything else that could be sucked into the whirlpool of state Factory stamping or production was in fact done... even those employed in hand made wares were absorbed into the Grand State Enterprize so even if they could it was too late and those capable of passing on the expertise were prevented from doing so ...and soon it would be lost.

This happened to weapons first since the initial objective was weapons of war...then all things that could be made by machines fell under the hammer so to speak...Minting of coinage was among the first to be absorbed and daggers and swords were very much targets of mechanised tools ...That however, did not mean some sort of link between the daggers you mention and the newer swords which looked like modern bayonet style of the day...The factory was however well capable of rejigging with modern machine made hilts and issuing stamps on anything which could be stamped!! That's what happened and no development or design sprang from one dagger to the next.... Only the common stamp; The dreaded Mashin Khana !

See https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjOypy8pPjOAhXIWRoKHXOjDw4QjxwIAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phototheca-afghanica.ch%2Findex.php%3Fid%3D112%26no_cache%3D1 %26tx_browser_pi1%255BshowUid%255D%3D327%26cHash%3 D17c3b4755e&psig=AFQjCNHjxU2cZu1peeU1ovxOrp5EXr74MA&ust=1473164377843799&cad=rjt

and http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afghanistan/mashin-khana/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Cannons and even Martini Henry rifles, ammo and bayonets were all copied ..There was a huge factory at Jangalak...and that is what is stamped on the MH below which employed over 8,000 men next to Ayub Khan Mena and it is said that this was the M.H. production centre...anyway it was part of the National Factories Industrial Revolution under the flag Mashin Khana.
See http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/HTNL%20DOCUMNETS/1888%20and%201903.htm for more evidence of bayonet production in Afghanistan...about 1888.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In an attempt to iron out what was and what was not reproduced at Mashin Khana or subsidiary factories in Kabul I extract and Quote the following from http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/13614#.V-UAdnqrGxF
Quote"

1880: Abdur Rahman officially recognized as Amir
1885: - “When Lord Dufferin assumed the Viceroyalty one of his first acts was to invite the Amir to India in order to cement the relations between Afghanistan and Great Britain. Abdur Rahman agreed, and afterwards met the Viceroy at Rawul Pindi.”

The Amir engaged M. Jerome, a French Electrical Engineer to establish the manufacture of arms and ammunition at Kabul.

While visiting Lord Dufferin, “A portable engine with, a dynamo and flashlight attached caught the Ameer's eye and gave him the idea of introducing machinery into Afghanstan. A Frenchman in charge of this machinery accepted the Ameer's invitation to go to Kabul”…..

“Shortly after his arrival at Kabul he looked out of his window one morning and saw two men hanging on the gallows and two women having their throats cut.

The spectacle proved too much for the chivalrous Frenchman. On being sent to Europe to buy machinery he determined not to risk his skin, again. The machinery was forthcoming, but not the Frenchman.''

“Some months passed by and the Ameer wrote to the Indian Government asking them to send an engineer. To this they replied that they could not officially comply with this request, but if the Ameer specified an individual, permission would be given for him to cross the frontier. In the result I [Salter Pyne] was allowed to go to Afghanistan, and on March 12th, 1885, I left Peshawar for Cabul.” Pyne was 25 years old at the time.

“Pyne was approached and contracted in 1887 through Abd al-Rahman's Envoy in Calcutta”

Mr. Salter Pyne, English Mechanical Engineer entered service of Amir with permission of the Government of India in 1887.

[COMMENT: Note the disparity in dates in the preceding three passages – based on Pyne’s birth year of 1860, his age of 25 upon departure, and his own testimony of departure in the year 1885, 1887 probably reflects when the appointment was officially documented in Indian records.]

“Born in 1860 at Broseley, he commenced life as a lad in the Birmingham machinery works of Tangye and Co. He soon worked up to the position of manager of foundry and engineering works, and at the age of 22 went out to Calcutta for an engineering firm. He was still in Calcutta when the Ameer paid a visit to Lord Dufferin at Rawal Pindi.”

ca.1886 - 1889: “Sir Walter Pyne, a Yorkshireman, first arrived in Kabul in 1886 and started a workshop…” ." “At the end of three months 'the buildings were finished, and Mr Pyne was dispatched to Europe to procure machinery.” Eighteen months were spent in getting machinery and plant specially made in England, and a similar period elapsed after his return before the machinery arrived at Cabul.” These eventually grew to workshops, sawmills, steam hammers, lathes, and machines for making a variety of articles, from breech-loading cannon to soap and candles. Particular attention was given to the fashioning of arms and the supply of munitions of war.”

1891: Rifles, cannons, ammunition, and boots were being produced at the mashin khana.

1893: In 1893 fifty muzzle and breech-loading field guns were cast and drilled, and a large number of Martini-Henry Rifles were turned out. Cartridges were being filled at the rate of three thousand daily.”

“Mr. Pyne was at one time engaged in an arms factory in England. At Kabul they turn out a rifle of the Martini-Henry Pattern. The barrel is made by machinery, but the stock mechanism and sighting is done by hand. About 3,000 Martini-Henri cartridges are manufactured daily. There is also plant for manufacturing Snider cartridges, but it has not yet been set up.”

1894: “By 1894 Sir Salter was turning out 7000 Martini and 900 Snider cartridges a day. He next turned his attention and that of his Afghans to the manufacture of Martini- Henry gun barrels and set up a steam hammer and a forge. Muzzle and breechloading field guns then made their appearance.

“In 1898 They turned out two Gardiners and two Maxims every month, and 120 Nordenfeldts a year, also 120 quick-firing field pieces, ranging from six to 14 pounders, every year. The daily output of rifles was 25 and every 24 hours 10,000 Snider and 10,000 Martin cartridges were produced.”

1898: “In 1898, after 13 years faithful service to the Ameer, Sir Salter left Afghanistan.”

LOCATION OF THE WORKSHOP

“Workshop situate on the banks of the Kabul River where it emerges from the gorge between the Asmai and Sher Derwaza mountains into the Kabul valley. There is a small steam-hammer, a stationary engine, lathes, cartridge plant, and a minting-machine operating under the direction of Mr. Pyne and his European assistants.”

“In 1898 the foundries and workshops —second to none in the world. In their elaborate equipment and up-to-date fittings— covered an area of a third of a mile long by 200 yards wide. Three thousand three hundred Afghans were employed, a large percentage of the whole population of Kabul.”

NOTE: ON THE TERM “mashin khana”

It has been speculated that there may be a Russian connection to this term used to reference the work shop complex. Given the Amir’s eleven year exile in Russian Turkestan prior to his return to Afghanistan this could be very probable.

SOURCES AND CREDITS: All references cited are readily available on the internet and use of quote marks above indicate direct quotes from the original source and full attribute to the original author.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur_Rahman_Khan (Accessed 7 Jan 12)
[2] THE DEVELOPMENT OF AFGHANISTAN Timaru Herald, Volume LVII, Issue 5917, 16 March 1894, Page 3
[3] Wheeler, Stephen. The Ameer Abdur Rahman; Bliss, Sands and Foster (London 1895); page 218-219
[4] FROM ARTISAN TO AMBASSADOR. AFGHANISTAN'S CIVILISER. EN ROUTE FOR AUSTRALASIA. Auckland Star, Volume XXXII, Issue 34, 9 February 1901, Page 3
[5] The Ameer. His Armaments. Government Cruelties. Auckland Star, Volume XXVII, Issue 68, 21 March 1896, Page 4
[6] Hanifi, Shah Mahmoud. CONNECTING HISTORIES IN AFGHANISTAN, Market Relations and State Formation on a Colonial Frontier; Columbia University Press, (Online 2008). Note 63
[7] The Annual register of world events: a review of the year, Volume 133 (1891). Longmans, Green, and Co. (London, 1892). Edited by Edmund Burke. Page 365 and 366
Same passage found in:
Design Council. Engineering, Volume 51 (July 17, 1891) Page 161
[8] Wheeler, Stephen. The Ameer Abdur Rahman; Bliss, Sands and Foster (London 1895); page 221
[9] The Ameer’s Soap Factory in Afghanistan published in the American soap journal and manufacturing chemist, Volumes 3-5; Henry Gathmann Publisher (Chicago, April 1, 1893 Vol. IV, No 1). Page 198
[10] Journal of the Society of Arts, Volume 42. Society of Arts (Great Britain, from November 17, 1893 to November 16, 1894. Page 264

[[edited to correct variants to 7 distinct types]] "Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I refocus on the title Afghan Pulowar Blade Type below..and Quote"
A North Indian Or Afghan Pulouar
18th/19th Century
With earlier curved single-edged blade of finely watered wootz steel with narrow fuller along the back for most of its length on each side (expertly joined at the forte, some light pitting), russet steel hilt of characteristic form with brass-inlaid decoration and borders, comprising shaped pointed langets, downbent stylised makara-head quillons, hollow cup-shaped pommel pierced with small holes between raised spiral lines, originally filled with jingles and retained by a disc-shaped cap with engraved border between brass lines and surmounted by a domed finial with small pierced terminal, and swelling grip, in its wooden scabbard covered in blackened leather over cord lines and scrollwork, russet suspension mounts (chape missing), and two rings for suspension. 76 cm. blade.
Footnotes Literature: Pinchot, p.64, fig.4-13
For a related example see Hales, p.374, fig.931." Unquote.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Staying with the main theme The Afghan Pulwar/ Pulouar; See below the 1880 item held up in the centre of the picture of Afghan Police with weapons...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This Pulouar has an interesting dot configuration using the figure 5 geometry. Talismanic figure 5's decorate the blade in several places in 3/5 shared multiples. There is a triple dot protecting the point region. The blade has a signature stamped at the throat. :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ibrahiim,
This is quite interesting, as I dont remember to have seen these dot markings in the middle of fullers.
I too have these dot markings, but at the beginning and at the end of the fullers. It is almost as if tthe dot marks 'closes' the fullers, but so far I dont know what they indicate.
Jens

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim,
This is quite interesting, as I dont remember to have seen these dot markings in the middle of fullers.
I too have these dot markings, but at the beginning and at the end of the fullers. It is almost as if the dot marks 'closes' the fullers, but so far I dont know what they indicate.
Jens


Often they "appear" to protect the point of the blade or the throat. In actual fact they are thus protecting the wielder of the weapon. They occur in one, three, or in this case a combination of a three and a five geometry.


Atkinson Swords notes at http://atkinson-swords.com/sword-making-and-decoration/special-interest-features/brass-dots.html

Quote" Brass Dots ~Inset brass dots are found on blades from many regions. Note that holes in blades may be an intended part of the design, or may once have been plugged with a particular metal such as brass, gold or copper.

The size, configuration or relative arrangement of dots on blades may or may not have special meaning. A modern interpretation of the brass is a matter of inquiry. Theories include inset brass dots as esthetic aspects of an overal design, maker’s marks, signifiers of quality, symbolic significance,
imparting talismanic, or magical properties to a weapon.

The placing dots of brass (or other metals) evolved from an ancient practice in early Frankish blades. In some cases, these ancient dots were arranged to form specific symbols. Sometimes a dot was simply a gold nail. The practice spread to numerous other areas, perhaps as a result of the influence on local designs brought by trade. It is important to remember that the placing of brass dots, application of marks, use of design motifs and so on is particular to the smith and individual ordering the weapon in a particular time, place and cultural context.

Brass dots may appear on both sides of the blade (possibly as a plug for a hole) or on one side only.

INDIA

It has been proposed that inset brass dots in India were placed strategically to add apotropaic (anti-magical) properties to the iron in the blade. in some cases there are many dots, arranged in patterns of threes. These may represent the trimurti (trinity of three), an important attribute in many faiths. The trimurti configuration on Indian blades often appears on strategic locations on blades, such as at terminus of fullers and blade root.

Indian steel and weapons, such as jambiyas, often made their way to Africa as important trade items. Both Arab and Persian smiths and other communities were present in India and may have learned the practice there.

NORTH AFRICA, ARABIA AND THE MIDDLE EAST

In the Arabian Penninsula the practice of inset brass dots is very rare. A local contact in Yemen of one collector reported that dots appearing on jambiya in the “poison” area of the blade are supposed to signify the number of kills by the blade. This explanation appears in other regions as well, and also in reference to holes in the blade (which may or may not have held a brass inset at one time). The theory should be regarded as highly speculative, even a myth invented long after the fact by locals and collectors.

The religious belief that iron and steel of a blade causes death is well known in North Africa (e.g., Tuareg) and led to the use of brass to protect a person’s hand from touching the metal.

INDONESIA AND PHILIPPINES

The mandau of the inland Dayak tribes (Penan and Kayan) on Borneo may feature "lantak paku”, ten small inlaid circles of brass, two next to each other in five groups aligned near the edge of the blade.

CHINA

Chinese Jian swords often have inset brass dots. A configuration of seven dots represents the celestial “big dipper” in the great Bear constellation. Celestial features are very important in Chinese faiths and traditions. This practice is reported related to martial arts and an ancient historic warrior who carried a sword with that pattern. Chinese smiths traveled for work in various southeast Asian regions and the practice of inset brass dots likely spread as a result of their influence. The feature of seven brass dots may also refer to a fabled blade-making area in Chine known as the “seven wells.” Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[S.Al-Anizi]

NORTH AFRICA, ARABIA AND THE MIDDLE EAST

In the Arabian Penninsula the practice of inset brass dots is very rare. A local contact in Yemen of one collector reported that dots appearing on jambiya in the “poison” area of the blade are supposed to signify the number of kills by the blade. This explanation appears in other regions as well, and also in reference to holes in the blade (which may or may not have held a brass inset at one time). The theory should be regarded as highly speculative, even a myth invented long after the fact by locals and collectors.

The religious belief that iron and steel of a blade causes death is well known in North Africa (e.g., Tuareg) and led to the use of brass to protect a person’s hand from touching the metal.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Hello,

In Arab tradition (this practice dates to pre-islam) brass as a metal is used to ward off the "evil eye" and also repel the jinn. This belief is still prevalent in many societies in Arabia still.

Regards,

Sager