PARANG PANDIT

[Dajak]

According to Stone A Seadyak sword

[VVV]

Very nice Pandat Dajak!

I think Stone attributed a bit to much to Sea Dayaks.
As you know he also thought that the Kampilan originally was a Sea Dayak weapon.
Have you noticed that most of Stone's Indonesian sword and dagger pictures are copied directly from the Leiden catalogues (f.i. Fischer's on Sumatra)?

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael this is true but don t forget that this one is from north west Sarawak those people lived very close to the Iban .

The Design on the scabbard is Iban no land dyak

[VVV]

Hi Dajak,

I must admit I haven't studied Iban design overall enough to analyse your scabbard motives.
But I think I can find a similar scabbard pattern on one of my Pandat below.
According to Shelford's classification both of our Pandat are Sidin Land Dayak
(please correct me if I am mistaken on this?).
Could it be that the Land Dayaks were either inspired by the Iban patterns or that they share resembling motives?
This based on your argument that some of the Iban are neighbours to the Land Dayaks?

Michael

[Dajak]

Hi Michael the problem with these things is that who did have first the pandit
the Ibans or the land dayaks .

If You have the book basic Iban design you can find it in there the design that is on the scabbard

The problem with these things is that the pandats mostly very old and difficult trace back off the origin off the sword but it is more likely that this type off pandat has the origin by the Ibans .

They where the mostly headhunters off al the dayaks are from borneo ,
It was never used as an tool only for head hunting.

If anyone have pics from people with pandats like them to see.

By the way very nice pandat

[VVV]

Hi Dajak,

Yes, I have that book as well as the new Iban Art book.
I had a look in them both, as well as couple of other general Dayak design books, but the only Iban resembling pattern on your scabbard I could find was variations of the general leaf pattern.
This is a pattern variation that also is found among several other tribes.
I specifically looked for the "fish" symbol on your scabbard but couldn't find it anywhere as Iban.
I also tried to find the diagonal checkered pattern in the Iban design books.
Please give me some hints on where to look?
I haven't seen any proof that the Pandat has been used by the Ibans after late 19th C. Do you agree?
If Pandat originally was an Iban Parang, why did they then stop using it and why did the Land Dayaks take over it?
And why did the old field researchers only attribute it to the Land Dayaks?
But I guess that Stone got it from some old source that I missed?
Do you know which?

Michael

[RhysMichael]

Dominique Buttin attibuted them to the land dyaks on his site
http://old.blades.free.fr/
I beleive most of his information comes from ""Catalogue de la Collection d'Armes Anciennes, Européennes et Orientales" " by Chales Buttin

[Dajak]

Hi he did that after I send him the shelford publication and pics off the
pandat because that is the same as the one pictured overhere



Micheal he might got some imformation from

Ling Roth The natives off Sarawak and British Borneo 1869

I have an sword that was an bringback by an British officer in 1820

So english where very early there before shelford make the publication more than 100 years ago before he makes the publication

[VVV]

Hi Ben,

I have read Ling Roth's book but I think it's very cryptic regarding his description of Dayak swords. Sometimes I suspect that he mixes up names of the swords (Nabur vs Niabor) and a lot seems to come from hearsay. So if Ling Roth is the main source I fully understand why Stone also had problems with classifying some weapons.
Another example is his description of the Dukn. A van Zonneveld obviously chooses only to quote it in his excellent book, maybe because it's hard to figure out what it really is? My guess (!) is that it's the Iban Pedang that resembles the Batak Piso Podang.
Enclosed is a page from Ling Roth on the Parang Pandit (I think?).
If that's the page then he attributes it to the Hill tribes instead of the Sea Dayaks.
I also have enclosed a nice illustration from the same book of a Pandat that resembles yours. Also note that Ling Roth attributes the Kampilan in the same illustration to the Lanun tribe.

This thread more and more looks like a discussion only between us so unless somebody else would like to participate maybe we should continue it off forum?

And I am sure that we all would like to see the 1820 bring back sword.

Michael

PS RhysMichael, Charles Buttin's Catalogue is a catalogue of his collection. I don't have it with me at the moment but I think there is only one plate in it of Indonesian weapons. I find the D Buttin site very well researched and you can find a separate reference list on the site with several good books and articles.

[Dajak]

I show you the sword when you visit me other wise I have nothing news for you to see. :D :D :D

[VVV]

I am reviving this old thread to share two pandat I have acquired since then.
I also hope other forumites could share there variations so we could have a nice reference thread.
The first one with unusually nice scabbard carvings.

Michael

PS I have cleaned the blade after I took the pictures...

[VVV]

The second one is a hybride between the long (Sidin) and short (Bennah) variation.
Also the pin on the grip is unusally long.

Michael

[CharlesS]

Both magnificent examples VVV. I am drooling.

What is the approximate age of each?

[VVV]

...What is the approximate age of each?

I have no idea on how to estimate the age of a pandat by features and styles.
So by looking on patina and work details my guess is mid to late 19th C (in order).
I have been told from a local source that the Pandat wasn't manufactured after the 1930's.

Michael

[migueldiaz]

Hi Michael and Dajak,

Thanks for the pics and the info!

What would be the theory or speculation behind the bifurcated end of the sword? Am very much interested in knowing what the hypotheses are!

Thanks in advance ...

:)

[Maurice]

Hi Michael,


Great examples. I especially like the carvings on the scabbard of pandat 3.
But why do you think the scabbard is made so long (according to the blade) and "kinked" at the end?
Or do you think it was just a "fashion" thing at that time or characteristic by the carver, just like te protrusion the pandat scabbard you depicted earlier in this same thread could be?

I think your advantage by having this larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings....:)

Kind regards,
Maurice

[Sajen]

Hello Michael,

great finds. Unfortunately I don't have a Pandat to show! :D :eek:
sajen

[VVV]

Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.
It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip.
I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours... :rolleyes:

Michael

[asomotif]

Hello Michael,

Nice examples.
I like the theory by Maurice :larger scabbard is that you have more of those nice carvings
But could there be Taiwan/Paiwan influences on the scabbard shape / length ?
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1223&highlight=paiwan

Best regards,
Willem

[fearn]

Hi Willem,

When you compare the baiwan and the dayak blades, I think you might be seeing echoes of a shared ancestral culture.

The archeologists and linguisted showed that the ancestral Indonesian/Polynesian culture originated in Taiwan, spread south through Indonesia, then west along the coasts into Polynesia.

These cultures share motifs of canoes, headhunting, and similar. One can see the canoe prow both in the scabbards and in the tips of some of the swords. I suspect it's supposed to be the silhouette of a war canoe in all of these blades, although I'm not sure exactly why.

As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure.

Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet, and I'd love to know what it's like to hit something with it. All that square-edged metal in the handle might be painful.

F

[migueldiaz]

Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.
It clearly is a no-thrusting-chopping-only-weapon so I don't think that there ever was a functional tip.
I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours... :rolleyes: MichaelThanks Michael for the comments.

For a while, I thought we have here a possible lead on the origin of the similarly bifurcated blade tip of the kampilan.

Thanks just the same for the response! :)

[migueldiaz]

As for the bifurcated tip, I'd guess it's supposed to be something like a crocodile mouth, but I'm not sure.Hi Fearn. If they like the Moros and other Phil. ethnic groups venerated also the croc, then that must be it! :)

Still, the pandit's definitely one of the 10 weirdest blades on the planet ...And what would be the other nine? :D

[Maurice]

I double-checked the scabbard length and measured it inside. It fits perfectly.
So I assume it's a prestige thing?
Like mine is longer than yours... :rolleyes:

MichaelSo it is just as my purse.
I have a very large purse (like the mine is bigger as yours thing), but don't look into it.
By the way it is made by onionleather. Every time when I look in it I have to cry...:D

[Gavin Nugent]

Gents, this is one thread I am finding very interesting.

Would this image I have presented fall into the same area of discussion or is it a totally different animal?

Gav

[VVV]

Gav,

Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon.
However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe.
Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread.

Michael

[kai]

Congrats, Michael, those are great examples!

Regards,
Kai

[Gavin Nugent]

Gav,

Yours is neither a Pandat nor a Land Dayak weapon.
However it's a gorgeous example of a Sadap of the neighbouring Melanau tribe.
Please share more pictures of it, maybe in a separate thread.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I'd love to share more of it for all to see but it is for sale and I believe it is a breach of forum protocols to openly discuss items for sale. I will be more than happy to engage in private correspondence about this wonderful piece and supply images to all interested parties. I knew it was quite unusual and what I consider very rare but I honestly thought it was just a gorgeous version of the Land Dayak weapon and I thought to offer it up as comparison.

thanks

Gav

[VVV]

Hi Gav,

Maybe you can share more pictures after it has been sold?

Michael

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you Michael, I would be more than happy to do so. Perhaps you can PM me with all the information that you would like to see posted and I can compile it before it goes.

regards

Gav

[Mytribalworld]

I have no idea on how to estimate the age of a pandat by features and styles.
So by looking on patina and work details my guess is mid to late 19th C (in order).
I have been told from a local source that the Pandat wasn't manufactured after the 1930's.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Nice examples again ! I have a old book that where the writer ( 1865) describes the use of the parang latok, In my opinion close related to the pandat. At first he mentioned that the sword was a Malay influence and was already in disuse for warlike purpose course blades from europe where imported which where cheaper.

Interesting is that he explaines the use ( parang latok) as beiing used at two different ways. The one for small jobs like chopping wood,where they hold the sword in the nick of the blade for a better grip.
The other way is for an very effective blow where you use the blade in his full length and first slash the blade into the wound and then pull the entire length trough the wound which maybe explain why the handle is that simple.
The sword has to be taken between the fingers when pulling trough the wound. I can also imagine that a head can be chopped off with one blow that way.

Your pandat with the holes drilled in it can be very old I think and I see some similarity with designs of the malay Anak Wali ( see spirit of wood) so maybe closer to the source? ( just a guess)

Arjan.

[Mytribalworld]

[QUOTE=VVV]Unfortunately I don't have any answers to your questions and Dajak has left the forum.

( but is sometimes still watching, isn't it Ben?) :D :D :D

[VVV]

(snip) Your pandat with the holes drilled in it can be very old I think and I see some similarity with designs of the malay Anak Wali ( see spirit of wood) so maybe closer to the source? ( just a guess)

Arjan.

Hi Arjan,

Thanks for the description on the use of the Land Dayak swords.
I don't get the resemblence with an Anak Wali however?
Please develop this idea when you find time.

Michael

[asomotif]

ca. 1875 picture/drawing. studio made

[tom hyle]

OMG what a cool sword!!!!! I have so much to say I'm liable to forget 1/2 of it plus I'm in a room with friends to distract me.
OMG OMG OMG
OK
OK calm down, Tom!
Beautiful swords!
I find a resemblance to the wierd big Naga sword with the iron handle and integral crossguard; no? Are these super-rare and perhaps ceremonial, like those?
What relation of Nagas and Dyaks, ethno-historically? Other than the handle, seems to be a pretty straitforward parang latok in concept, and so in use? But note how it's dangling "backwards" from the man's hand; is this a method of use or is this how it's carried?
Are the crossguards used for control like the "finger" on a pinegas?
OMG!!!!!!!

When cutting with parang latok/parang lading, as with other swords that curve, bend, or lean back (kilij is particularly similar, while this is often spoken/written of in N America in reference to Japanese swords) the back-wards angle to the blade causes it to pull thru the target with a slashlike action, even when the hand action is a simple "hack".

[Battara]

Wonderful pieces! :)

STill don't understand how they were used however. :confused:

[asomotif]

!
I find a resemblance to the wierd big Naga sword with the iron handle and integral crossguard; no? Are these super-rare and perhaps ceremonial, like those?
What relation of Nagas and Dyaks, ethno-historically? Other than the handle, seems to be a pretty straitforward parang latok in concept, and so in use? But note how it's dangling "backwards" from the man's hand; is this a method of use or is this how it's carried?
Are the crossguards used for control like the "finger" on a pinegas?
.

Yes they indeed do resemble the naga swords, after I found a (rare) example on Oriental arms. But I do'nt know if there is a connection between these regions. :shrug:

[tom hyle]

In both cases there is a certain resemblance to swords from the same nations with more ordinary hilts (ie. Parang latok/lading and Naga Dao). In both cases, not only is the handle made of iron/steel, and integral to the blade, but there is the addition of the crossguard, and also in both cases there is an altered step-down or offset to the transition from blade to grip.
I think something is going on here; are these all high status/ritual swords? They seem it?.......



Coming in from the side, appropos of nothin; the sharply rectangular cross-section of the grip is reminiscent of that on "machete Phillipiana" (spelling?)
But is the grip on the Naga one rectangular, too? It looks more comfortably rounded?

[Mytribalworld]

OMG what a cool sword!!!!! I have so much to say I'm liable to forget 1/2 of it plus I'm in a room with friends to distract me.
OMG OMG OMG
OK
OK calm down, Tom!
Beautiful swords!
I find a resemblance to the wierd big Naga sword with the iron handle and integral crossguard; no? Are these super-rare and perhaps ceremonial, like those?
What relation of Nagas and Dyaks, ethno-historically? Other than the handle, seems to be a pretty straitforward parang latok in concept, and so in use? But note how it's dangling "backwards" from the man's hand; is this a method of use or is this how it's carried?
Are the crossguards used for control like the "finger" on a pinegas?
OMG!!!!!!!

When cutting with parang latok/parang lading, as with other swords that curve, bend, or lean back (kilij is particularly similar, while this is often spoken/written of in N America in reference to Japanese swords) the back-wards angle to the blade causes it to pull thru the target with a slashlike action, even when the hand action is a simple "hack".





In overall shape there's seems to be a relation between the Naga sword and the Borneo pandat.
In use the Nagasword is for me,( I just exercised with it) the most ergonomic type. It wouldn't suprise me if the bone or antler top at the pandat handle was actually once of iron( for both hand use) but developped later to smaller proportions.
There seems relation between the Naga and Indonesian tribes and there are comparables in their culture like headhunting, feast of merit,megaliths,Y-posts,tattooing etc

Arjan

[tom hyle]

I found out that pandit is a Hindoo priest or religious instructor of some kind.

[VVV]

Here is another pandat I have found.
It has resembling motifs on the scabbard as the others but the end piece on this is ivory, which I haven't seen before.

Michael

[Maurice]

Here is another pandat I have found.
It has resembling motifs on the scabbard as the others but the end piece on this is ivory, which I haven't seen before.

Michael
Hi Michael,

Thank you for sharing images of this wonderfull piece!
So rare and you have so many of them.
Besides the ones I've seen in museumcollections, I've only held three in my hands.....and the best one of those three is in your collection for a while now (the one with hair).

Regards,
Maurice

[VVV]

I don't have the one with hair, it used to be Ben's.
I know a couple of other forumites also have pandat.
Please also post them here so we can have them as references.

Michael

[Maurice]

I don't have the one with hair, it used to be Ben's.
I know a couple of other forumites also have pandat.
Please also post them here so we can have them as references.

Michael

Sorry for the mix-up...

Good idea...I can't post one here, because I don't have one.
Ofcourse I would love to see the pandats other forumites have in their collection.

Maurice

[Maurice]

I can't post one here, because I don't have one.


I'm really proud that I'm able now to post my first pandat in my collection!
Finally I was able to add such very rare Borneo piece....


I've also posted a drawing of a pandat with a very similar scabbard, depicted in Henry Ling Roth's book (2nd part).

Maurice

[VVV]

A great piece!
And the first one in this thread of the other main category of Pandat.

Michael

[Battara]

Congratulations! A very nice example.

[Maurice]

And the first one in this thread of the other main category of Pandat.


Were the different pandats used by different landdayak tribes?
I never studied the pandats before, but now I have to... :o
But is it me or could I be right that the "little" ones look older and are made less developed as the ones you for instance have?

PS I've found a very nice one of my category in the Tropenmuseum Amsterdam, also with similar scabbard, but than partly filled with tin.

Maurice

[VVV]

I don't think that age and style necessarily have to go together in this case because were used simultaneously.
Shelford is the only source I have found describing the difference between pandats used by different tribes. As usual, you have to be careful with his statements based on that he did not examine that many parang when he wrote his article.

Michael

PS Probably there were much more adornments on the pandits, like tin and feathers, when they were in actual use.

[Maurice]

I don't think that age and style necessarily have to go together in this case because were used simultaneously.
Shelford is the only source I have found describing the difference between pandats used by different tribes. As usual, you have to be careful with his statements based on that he did not examine that many parang when he wrote his article.

Michael

PS Probably there were much more adornments on the pandits, like tin and feathers, when they were in actual use.

I agree with you about Shelford fully, as we discussed recently.
But if Shelford would be right, it should mean that mine "has to be" a Bennah land-dayak pandat.
It's amazing how the quality of the forged blades differ between the better forged Sidin land-dayak pandats, in contrast with the Bennah's.
The Sidin's look much more evolved.


About the feathers and tin adornments: Yes they must had a lot more adornments. When looking at the museumpieces for instance, which still have been preserved better as in most private collections.
Don't forget the "pitfalls" and big hook we discussed earlier :) .
I added an image of a interesting one in the Bronbeek museum.

Maurice

[Cakszz]

I've just acquired new unique pandat blade, with silver decorative. Any Idea?