Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

[blue lander]

Just won the auction for this but it won't arrive for awhile. The blade supposedly says "Zacona Toscania". Zacona is a town in Tuscany, I presume that's where it was made. Does that town have a history of making swords?

[TVV]

Pity about the blade damage from rust, but otherwise a very nice and interesting takouba. Iain has similar Italian backsword blade mounted ones and I am sure he will chime in.

Teodor

[Iain]

An intriguing one! I'll hold off on detailed comments until I can see better images, but this has some interesting features like the brass at the base of the blade.

A pity about the condition of the blade, somewhat relic condition, but I still see a lot of appeal to the piece. :) I think you will find that the blade has been modified to be two edged.

I'll be interested to see details when you have it in hand. I am jealous that I didn't see it first!

[blue lander]

Thanks! I was a little surprised you didn't snap it up, I figured it was too ratty for your collection. At least the "interesting" part of the blade is intact.

[Iain]

Thanks! I was a little surprised you didn't snap it up, I figured it was too ratty for your collection. At least the "interesting" part of the blade is intact.

I simply didn't see it! :) needless to say if you tire of it.... :)

[Jim McDougall]

Now this is very interesting, especially as it is well established that the single edge blade is rather an anomaly among North African swords, as the broadsword is obviously favored. However, we know that with the brisk trade in blades through various entrepots there were occasions where these became mingled in the volume in whatever small degree.

We know that many blades, despite the more dominant input from Solingen, actually likely came from Italian sources which confluenced with the other trade networks inbound on occasion.

I would suspect this to be possibly a schiavona blade and of latter quarter 18th c. I will here go out on a limb with the inscription on the blade,
'ZACONA TOSCIANA'.
Clearly the Tosciana refers to Tuscany, but I would offer the speculation that the 'zacona' may relate to the Croatian/Slovenian word 'zakona' which loosely refers to 'law'.
We know that in Venice, the famed bodyguards of the Doge consisted largely of Dalmatian (Croatian) forces, and that the schiavona (indeed termed for this nationality) was quite well known in their use.
Perhaps this inscription might relate to some force or unit in Tuscany with some legal or enforcement capacity?

Whatever the case, this blade's terrible condition may be testament to its having been in this hilt for a very long time, thus, one of the much sought after early takouba with European blade. I would rely here on Iain's view on the character and likely age of the hilt.

My question would be otherwise, why would someone mount a virtual relic condition blade in a takouba? The tribesmen in these regions take great pride in their takouba, and would deem such a sword very poorly.

[blue lander]

Another possible scenario is that some African merchant mounted a rusty old blade in a new hilt purely to sell to tourists, but the hilt seems just as corroded as the blade. Seems they've been togeather since before all the damage happened. Here's two more pictures of the hilt from the auction.

[Jim McDougall]

That is of course always possible, but that is a thing collectors have pretty much always contended with . As far as I have known however, these types would avoid using what is clearly regarded a rather pitiful blade as its marketability would be compromised.
As I mentioned, the hilt seems quite old as well, and Iain would have the final say on that as he knows these swords better than anyone .

[Iain]

The hilt is old, although not the oldest style I think we can identify. I think it has been with the blade since it was first mounted.

It is very hard to put a date to the hilt styles other than old, older, oldest type classification.

You have what I tend to think of as the second oldest style. The pommel is large but more of a lozenge shape than rounded. A medial ridge is defined. The guard is not boxy, but rather a wing shape, swelling where it meets the grip. The grip tube is round, not multi faceted.

Zacona I think will refer to the town, the phrase would be odd in Serbian or Croatian and in any case would require a K not a C. The blade is of a type that was widely exported including the well known firangi swords of India.I own one similar, see attached. I think the blade can be older than the 18th century, but I am not the best for dating this blade style. Better images will help when it arrives. :)

I am including images of what I would consider to be older hilt styles as well, hopefully what I am describing is visible from these images. In any case I think the blade and hilt are an authentic and original marriage and the sword is an excellent example of a hilt that has been with the blade for a very long time.

[Roland_M]

Just won the auction for this but it won't arrive for awhile.


Congratulation, a fine sword.

I also saw it, but i bought a Piso Gading (which was not really cheap) one day before the end of this auction.

I think, it is an early Renaissance blade and one possibility could be, that this blade was found in a warrior tomb and was combined with a takouba hilt.

I wonder what can cause such massive nicks? Was he a guy like Bud Spencer?

It would be very nice, if you make a new thread after the blade is arrived.


Roland

[colin henshaw]

Those extensive and quite regular indentations to the blade on both sides seem very odd...

I kind of doubt if they were caused only by rust.

[blue lander]

If it's from rust I wonder if the pattern is due to the way the blade was forged? Or did somebody beat on the blade? You'd think that level of abuse would have snapped the blade.

[Iain]

Congratulation, a fine sword.

I also saw it, but i bought a Piso Gading (which was not really cheap) one day before the end of this auction.

I think, it is an early Renaissance blade and one possibility could be, that this blade was found in a warrior tomb and was combined with a takouba hilt.

I wonder what can cause such massive nicks? Was he a guy like Bud Spencer?

It would be very nice, if you make a new thread after the blade is arrived.


Roland

These blades were widely exported, including to North Africa and then into the Sahel region. So not unusual at all really to see early blades in takouba mounts. If you look at the ones I posted you'll see even 14th and 15th century blades. ;)

[Iain]

If it's from rust I wonder if the pattern is due to the way the blade was forged? Or did somebody beat on the blade? You'd think that level of abuse would have snapped the blade.

A combination I think. I have seen other takouba blades with abuse to the edge that looks more than just coincidental...

[blue lander]

When you say "exported", do you mean that they were made for export, or that they were used in Europe and then exported after their were no longer useful? If they were made for export it seems odd to put "Zacona Toscania" on the blade as nobody would be able to read it wherever it ended up. A symbol like a moon or lion or whatever would make it more identifiable I'd think.

[Iain]

When you say "exported", do you mean that they were made for export, or that they were used in Europe and then exported after their were no longer useful? If they were made for export it seems odd to put "Zacona Toscania" on the blade as nobody would be able to read it wherever it ended up. A symbol like a moon or lion or whatever would make it more identifiable I'd think.

By exported I mean they were made in Europe, some were mounted in Europe, some were exported as bare blades.

As an example one of the swords I posted above next to a schiavonesca. The blades are marked the same, the form is the same, one spent its life in Europe, the other blade quite a ways away.

With a little time this summer I'll hopefully finish a longish article on this topic. There are interesting records in terms of shipments from Italy to Ottoman and Mamluk areas including blades and you find European blades being mounted in Mamluk mounts as well.

Note: for clarity the schiavonesca and the mamluk sword in the comparison images are not mine, but sourced from past auctions and used here simply to illustrate elements of the takouba form.

In terms of your blade and the examples I have given we are looking at earlier blades than the stereotypical patterns of the 18th and 19th century marked with elements like the ubiquitous half moons, made specifically for export long after those styles had past their popularity in Europe.

[Iain]

Did you get the sword yet blue lander? :) Interested to seem more pictures.

[blue lander]

I emailed the guy on sunday, he said he was going to send it out on Tuesday (yesterday). I paid him awhile ago, hopefully he isn't pulling shenanigans...

[kronckew]

this takouba just ended on epray. single edged, desc. 1930-ish.
24in. blade 7g8 grams.

i went to bid but my browser messed up, so it is not coming home to me. :(

[Iain]

this takouba just ended on epray. single edged, desc. 1930-ish.
24in. blade 7g8 grams.

i went to bid but my browser messed up, so it is not coming home to me. :(

I noticed it as well, an interesting little piece. Relatively modern with a blade which appears to be sourced from sheet steel. But the dimensions I find rather attractive, almost machete like.

[kronckew]

the blade did appear to be distal tapered in one photo.

[Iain]

the blade did appear to be distal tapered in one photo.

Can be ground to be more narrow at the tip as it wouldn't surprise me if it was double edged at the tip.

[kronckew]

ah, well, hope it went to a good home.

[blue lander]

So this thing still hasn't arrived. I contacted the seller and he sent me the shipping number and a picture of the shipping label (to prove he wrote the right address ). When I looked the number up at colissimo it said it had made it to the US but couldn't be delivered and was being returned. The address he wrote was correct, I have no idea why it wasn't delivered. Any advice on how to fix this?

[Iain]

So this thing still hasn't arrived. I contacted the seller and he sent me the shipping number and a picture of the shipping label (to prove he wrote the right address ). When I looked the number up at colissimo it said it had made it to the US but couldn't be delivered and was being returned. The address he wrote was correct, I have no idea why it wasn't delivered. Any advice on how to fix this?

Colissimo is delivered by USPS usually I believe. Did you contact them to see what the explanation was?

[blue lander]

I tried to contact Colissimo via email but they never responded. I'll try to contact USPS now.

[Iain]

Yep, best to contact the carrier stateside, did you try the tracking number in the USPS site?

[blue lander]

Yeah, I tried entering the tracking on the usps site but it doesn't have any records. I contacted usps and they basically said they have no record of the package and no idea where it is. I'm asking the seller to contact colissimo but I'm not sure if he will...

[Kubur]

Yeah, I tried entering the tracking on the usps site but it doesn't have any records. I contacted usps and they basically said they have no record of the package and no idea where it is. I'm asking the seller to contact colissimo but I'm not sure if he will...

Hi
I'm really sorry for you.
I know the site where you got your sword.
There are a lot of cheaters.
The guy should provide you the original tracking number.
Remember also the customs, maybe your stuff is blocked somewhere...

Good luck
Kubur

[blue lander]

Well, it took longer than I expected but it finally arrived! I'll take better pictures tomorrow but I've attached a photo of the only writing I see on the blade. I don't see Toscania anywhere, just the below word. If you look at it upside down (with the edge facing upward) it sort of looks like it says ZANCONA but with the N's backwards.

[kronckew]

glad you finally got it. interesting sword. i have a kaskara coming from france to the UK, shipped 5 days ago via colissimo. tracking says it' in switzerland.hope i do better with it's delivery.

here's a cyrillic alphabet from bulgaria - note the nackwards Ns are western Is

the 'Z' apears to be an earlier form of the modern cyrillic 'З', ='Ze'. not sure what that last letter would be. could be an early version of whatever. i'm not versed in ancient non western alphabets, of which there are a zillion.

i flipped the sword to make it easier to see

[blue lander]

Hopefully someone can make heads or tails of it.

I can't find my good camera but here are two more pictures I took from my phone.

Assuming it is Cyrillic, and the backwards N's are I's and the C's are S's, maybe it says Zmissia or Zaissia? That second character could be an A, an M, or maybe a Yus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yus

[blue lander]

Hi,

I posted this on the ethnographic side, but as the blade appears to be European I've started a thread on this end.

The blade only has two markings on it. One is the writing, apparently in cyrillic or a related alphabet. The other is two clusters of three dots. There was probably something in between the dots, but corrosion removed it.

Any thoughts on what the blade says or where it came from?

[Jim McDougall]

Good call to cross post this here Blue Lander! I honestly don't think a lot of the guys on the Ethnographic side read or post over here as they do not see the connection between these fields. The very reason we did start this forum is because of the profound connections between European weapons/blades and ethnographic.
Ironically, one obvious reason for Briggs' outstanding work on European blade markings (JAAS, 1965) is because of their presence in Saharan takouba.

First inclinations on this blade is probably Italian, 18th century schiavona blade, in any case certainly European and of that vintage. This is a most interesting marriage of backsword blade to takouba, as obviously the standard was broadsword blades. However, many takouba were mounted in later incarnations with very old blades, which sometimes were military backswords etc.
I have seen 19th century blades even by Mole in some, which is uncommon to see English blades in takouba.

It seems also that native artisans have sometimes tried to duplicate European lettering in blades acquired, one with awkwardly applied letters seemed to attempt approximating ANDREA (Ferrara) but it is hard to tell as the 'A's are all really discernible.
This inscription seems to have a '2' then some letters which could be 'A's (?) and the backwards 'N's are temptingly like Cyrillic letter. However that seems wildly out of context.

It seems I have seen a mix of numeral and disconnected letters on a blade in Arabian context seemingly replicating European marks, and numbers of these Italian blades may have entered North African trade routes during their colonial activities in Sudan and Ethiopia end of 19th into pre WWII.

I hope someone out there can either recognize this or place a more tangible explanation beyond these speculations :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note the appearance in this line of capitals of two Majescule A which may be compared with The Odd Sword ,,,marks... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20052&page=4&pp=30&highlight=sword
:shrug:

As far as I could deduce the letters were A 5 I IJ IJ A with two Majescule A one at each end of the string of letters.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Good call to cross post this here Blue Lander! I honestly don't think a lot of the guys on the Ethnographic side read or post over here as they do not see the connection between these fields. The very reason we did start this forum is because of the profound connections between European weapons/blades and ethnographic.
Ironically, one obvious reason for Briggs' outstanding work on European blade markings (JAAS, 1965) is because of their presence in Saharan takouba.

First inclinations on this blade is probably Italian, 18th century schiavona blade, in any case certainly European and of that vintage. This is a most interesting marriage of backsword blade to takouba, as obviously the standard was broadsword blades. However, many takouba were mounted in later incarnations with very old blades, which sometimes were military backswords etc.
I have seen 19th century blades even by Mole in some, which is uncommon to see English blades in takouba.

It seems also that native artisans have sometimes tried to duplicate European lettering in blades acquired, one with awkwardly applied letters seemed to attempt approximating ANDREA (Ferrara) but it is hard to tell as the 'A's are all really discernible.
This inscription seems to have a '2' then some letters which could be 'A's (?) and the backwards 'N's are temptingly like Cyrillic letter. However that seems wildly out of context.

It seems I have seen a mix of numeral and disconnected letters on a blade in Arabian context seemingly replicating European marks, and numbers of these Italian blades may have entered North African trade routes during their colonial activities in Sudan and Ethiopia end of 19th into pre WWII.

I hope someone out there can either recognize this or place a more tangible explanation beyond these speculations :)


Jim there appear to be two A in Majescule gothic style..with a few letters between them and an unusual 2 at the front. This coincides roughly with the sword letters format at Odd Sword which makes me think they could be from the same region/related.

I have to say that an awful lot of stuff has been left somewhat stranded on the other forum including very important posts from members ...I don't disagree with posting on European ...quite the reverse... but would it not be better having the whole thread please?

[fernando]

An unsupported theory would be that, there is no cyrillic involved here. The mirror atitude of the N could just be the smith's fantasy ... or illiteracy.
Reading the lettering straight forward, we would have ANCONA which is the name, for one, of a city and province in center Italy, somehow related with Roman era history, ancient weapon archeology and the like.
Would there be swordmaking over there during the age of the blade in discussion ?
... Notwithstanding this is a silly approach :o .

[Jim McDougall]

An unsupported theory would be that, there is no cyrillic involved here. The mirror atitude of the N could just be the smith's fantasy ... or illiteracy.
Reading the lettering straight forward, we would have ANCONA which is the name, for one, of a city and province in center Italy, somehow related with Roman era history, ancient weapon archeology and the like.
Would there be swordmaking over there during the age of the blade in discussion ?
... Notwithstanding this is a silly approach :o .


Silly?
Silly is the editorial page on artwork now reaching classic proportion on the other forum!
There are a number of approaches to analysis of markings, and while your observation using Occams Razor is quite viable, sometimes things are not what they seem.

[kronckew]

re: my earlier worry about colissimo. my short takouba sword shipped this last friday p.m. from the paris area, went to switzerland. got a note from the service delivering it last night that they'd deliver sometime today. here bright and early just before 8a.m. so it took about4+ days. colissimo shows it as being at the local delivery co.'s warehouse. guess they've not got the word yet. ;)

[blue lander]

This is the only other marking on the blade. Two triangles of three dots. If there was anything written between them it was already eaten by corrosion. They're right after the ricasso and right before the writing.

[fernando]

It looks like the symbol interpreted by some as a "2" could be a "Z", which would make the inscription be ZANCONA, another city in Tuscana Italy.
Surprizingly (or not) blue lander was aware of the "Z" letter assumption, although he has quoted the seller description in the Ethno forum thread as being ZACONA, whereas this (seller) has described it as ZANCONA.
Things getting a bit mixed up :shrug: .

[blue lander]

The seller's description of the blade was "ZACONA TOSCANIA" but I don't see toscania written anywhere on the blade. I don't know where he got that from.

[fernando]

No mistery; he has certainly seen in the web, or already knew it himself, that ZANCONA is in Toscania. Joining both names in the announcement was merely a seller trick, i would say :o .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There is some notion suggested that the Zancona attribution may be an effort in waffle added by the seller... Notwithstanding that~ I see the interesting design decoration to the cuff at the throat which seems to be a snake style decor... The three dots appear to one side of the blade possibly a Talisman or...?? :shrug:

[blue lander]

I assume those carvings were added when this was converted to a Takouba, but I suppose there's no proof they weren't original...

[Jim McDougall]

It seems to me that this well patinated blade is certainly European and in my view of 18th c. That it is a straight backsword with these numerous fullers suggests to me it is Italian. While cavalry blades of the time were straight backsword type, and often Solingen, these triple fullers were usually on sabre blades at the back of the blade, but not that I recall on British or German.
The schiavona was used as a cavalry sword much more widely than often realized, using back sword blades well into the 19th century.

The letters used in this inscription seem too disassembled to have been an originally applied marking, and the letters 'N' are backwards, in Italy other inscriptions show the 'N' marked correctly. The triple dots are of course a well known component on European swords in groupings such as the well known 'sickle' marks.

The 'snake' with dots is also a known motif on European blades, but usually on the blade only.
This area of the blade to me looks like an 'adabal', a metal plate sandwiched at the ricasso of takoubas in many cases, and the application of these European markings along with the letters etc. seem more convincingly a pastiche by a native artisan.

While the matching of known Italian names of cities etc, is of course tempting to the unusually formed lettering, it is important to note that there was a long standing penchant with some Italian makers in earlier times to use groupings of incongruent letters in marking blades. In these cases, makers such as Caino and Picinino placed these in arranged sequences,
but seemed to make no sense.
While these may have been acrostics, as often done with invocations, some have never been interpreted.

[blue lander]

between the regular ricasso and the sandwiched bit, the original ricasso on this blade would have been about 5 inches long!

[TVV]

I doubt the letters are Cyrillic.

Sincerely,
Teodor

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Lopoking across the broad variety of alphabets I see that the Majescule A occurs in Coptic. The reverse N in Tuareg and the 3 dots in ...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Lopoking across the broad variety of alphabets I see that the Majescule A occurs in Coptic. The reverse N in Tuareg \tifinaghe and the 3 dots. I seem to get the impression that any sequence of capitals will suffice and letters and numerals from a mixture of countries across the broad sweep of Tuareg domains was possible...

[Jim McDougall]

WOW!
Good catch Ibrahiim!!
There is that curious N in Tifinagh, and the others. That would explain these lettering anomalies which are found on numerous 'nimcha' blades as well as others in Saharan context.
The squiggled lines and dots are found on Sudanese blades in various cases as the snake (python) is key in certain symbolisms.

Well done......excellent research, thank you :)

[blue lander]

Very interesting angle on the alphabet it might be in.

I cleaned the blade up a bit - it's starting to look like that second character is just an M with a bit of corrosion.

Also, I've uncovered two half circles between the clusters of dots. I think they're eyelashes but I suppose the could be half moons. There isn't much left of them.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I doubt the letters are Cyrillic.

Sincerely,
Teodor

I think you are correct ... not Cyrillic probably a Tuareg dialect ... They used the inside out N and the Majiscule A as well as the three dots.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is excellent news showing Latten style inlaid hogsbacks which would usually be European crafted ? .... I'm not sure about the M as it appears to be the Majescule A. Naturally a sword could arrive with marks already completed and then added to by African smiths... :)
For sure the ADABAL is decorated in snake forms ...commonly seen in these West African decorations...i think in Ashanti design...although it can be imagines that a line up of snakes in front of the crossguard would afford some mystical Talismanic protection to the sword hand...
The three dot accompanied in the eyelash or hogs back also happens to be an Hausa letter k .

In conclusion it appears that some parallel exists between North African design and the influx of European blades and that Tuareg and others seeing the similarity in design have been inspired to copy in their well known counterparts including some of their decorative alphabet capitals... I illustrate the last point with a chart showing a very similar letter to the European Fly mark...Third row second from the end and the cross and orb on line two...

[blue lander]

Hmm.. the writing on the blade may be latten inlaid too. From a distance it looks like the letters are just rusty, but under magnification they look more yellow. I'll try to get a non-blurry closeup.

[Jim McDougall]

I think these letters may have been latten filled, and it seems a good possibility this is a late 17th century cavalry (probably schiavona) blade .
The fact that the latten filled crescent arcs are there suggests more that this blade was inscribed in Europe.
These letters are too deeply stamped to have been done in the native perameters, and while the apparently poorly struck letters bear some resemblance to native alphabets, I am inclined more to European origin.

Still, this entire assemblage gives us great perspective to the kinds of influences which native armourers experienced, and it is hard sometimes to discern where European style ends and native takes over.
Frankly, this places this blade in 'jackpot' category!!! :)
It has become ever harder to find early blades in these contexts.

Ibrahiim, your notes and observations continue to perfectly illustrate the close parallels between European influence and these native interpretations. The undulating lines which are known in European context as serpents on blades in Italy and I think Spain in degree surely must have been seen by armourers in the Sahara. In their native folk religion it seems I have seen references suggesting the snake and magic of holy men were synonymous.

Blue Lander, again, thank you for sharing this amazing sword here!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think these letters may have been latten filled, and it seems a good possibility this is a late 17th century cavalry (probably schiavona) blade .
The fact that the latten filled crescent arcs are there suggests more that this blade was inscribed in Europe.
These letters are too deeply stamped to have been done in the native perameters, and while the apparently poorly struck letters bear some resemblance to native alphabets, I am inclined more to European origin.

Still, this entire assemblage gives us great perspective to the kinds of influences which native armourers experienced, and it is hard sometimes to discern where European style ends and native takes over.
Frankly, this places this blade in 'jackpot' category!!! :)
It has become ever harder to find early blades in these contexts.

Ibrahiim, your notes and observations continue to perfectly illustrate the close parallels between European influence and these native interpretations. The undulating lines which are known in European context as serpents on blades in Italy and I think Spain in degree surely must have been seen by armourers in the Sahara. In their native folk religion it seems I have seen references suggesting the snake and magic of holy men were synonymous.

Kronckew, again, thank you for sharing this amazing sword here!

I place here the incredible treatise on North African style transition and flow on Jewellery across the entire Ethiopian Tuareg and Hause regions

http://www.academia.edu/7634962/The_Magic_Symbol_Repertoire_of_Talismanic_Rings_fr om_East_and_West_Africa...


Hello Jim, This is certainly jackpot country ... Insignias, capitals and marks on blades across North Africa have a huge pedigree and I can only note firstly that the snakes of which there are 5...are absolutely in the Islamic tradition...Fortunately this falls into the style of work both in Hausa, Tuareg and Ethiopian form since they also drew on Arabic decorations... So the 5 snakes were done in North Africa but what about the rest?

3 dots are straight off the alphabet form ... More difficult to argue since we see 3 dots in blades Latten filled but not on the side of the blade ...Apparently it is the small letter k.

The letter string is hugely difficult but if it does indeed say ZANCONA it may well have been done in Europe...

However, in terms of the North Africa Smiths (and there is vast evidence to support the import of European trade blades through hubs like Kano see reference below ) the Hausa, Tuareg and Ethiopian artisans were about as close to magicians as possible in peoples eyes as were the folk who wandered the country giving potents for medicinal purposes and magic signs to be placed on jewellery and swords. These weird folk who were apparently Jewish in days of old look the same now as they did then and it is quite startling when you encounter one today ...often in a Moroccan souk...they appear in all their traditional regalia and look 200 years old and instantly ready to whip up a spell !!.....

No doubt the art of the alchemist in Europe also knew these dark symbols ... though because the North African palette was so large hundreds of symbols could be called upon from Roman, Arabic through all the local dialects and mixed and muddled... It is quite interesting that some of the inscriptions had some meaning but often they had none... I think to drive us all mad !!

See the following link for an idea of the blade trade entering North Africa and flushing across the regions and imagine the trading stations they crossed Africa by... Here then is the hand of Trade stepping across Saharan regions as far as the Red Sea and the link in style on blades by local smiths setting down puzzles that in some cases cannot be answered fully.

https://books.google.com.om/books?id=VVvwGRnn91QC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=kano+sword+imports&source=bl&ots=h_rEVGlGtJ&sig=BMYpnZnk16XexJnm6exxW_OFNyM&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kano%20sword%20imports&f=false

[fernando]

... Kronckew, again ---

:confused: ;)

[Jim McDougall]

:confused: ;)

Thanks, wrong thread

[Iain]

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

[fernando]

Yes ... Sir :cool:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

Iain, these are superb pictures and the provenance looks sound etc.To my eye the locally done marks appear to be scratched on... whilst European strike marks are deeper indicating "done when hot". Clearly the other parts including the often large wrap or Adabel, African hilt and scabbard are tribally decorated ...with exceptions; where massive, often whole blade European design has been done by the supplier such as on Ethiopian swords commissioned often in Solingen...probably complete with hilts...

There are a lot of similarities with these East West African weapons...My problem is that on the first page typically we have about six Ethiopian, Hausa Tuareg variants...

For Forum Panel consideration...Would it be better ...do you think... to have all these Atlantic to Red Sea swords on the same big thread so that cross referencing can be simple and since much of the detail is interrelated through all the different alphabet and hieroglyph additions, local blade smith marks and origins of European species etc ? ... There are such similarities that are so easily missed when the subject is fractured all over the different pages on Ethnographic ...One mega thread would solve this in an instant... and research, study and informed detail would be transformed ...

Another way to do it would be a new thread ...A comparison of Red Sea to Atlantic weapons ...Ethiopian, Tuareg, Berber, Hausa Ashanti....( I leave it to Forum how this may be worded )

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[blue lander]

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

[Iain]

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

I think it's an M but the stamp wasn't fully flat. Could be wrong. :)

[blue lander]

I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above

[Iain]

I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above

Yes, its a very standard design and one I think of as solidly 19th century to best of what we know.

It's defined by the peaked mid ridge, often the use of a small bronze cap and engraved lateral plate.

A transition from the oldest rounded pommels.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Are there any examples of the type of stamp used by European and African Smiths? ....It occurred to me that the Europeans used stamps but the African style looks like one chisel and mallet combination only...not stamps...and or...that African work was often scratched on. not stamped. It also looks like European letters had the small tails at the ends of uprights but African capitals did not. Am I right in thinking that European work was stamped whilst the blade was hot...and not a method used by African smiths...resulting in mis strikes and less depth to the strike??

[Tordenskiold1721]

The blade could also be from a Dussack Ca 1570/80.

[blue lander]

I should mention the upper half of this sword is double edged. This might be an alteration made in Africa but it seems to me it was made this way.

Another unusual feature is the fuller at the bottom of the ricosso. I don't recall seeing any other backswords with a fuller there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The best way to understand the swords in the Sahel and environs is to see http://iainnorman.com/

[Jim McDougall]

The best way to understand the swords in the Sahel and environs is to see http://iainnorman.com/


Well done Ibrahiim!! Perfect link to Iain's site, and the terrific insight into the weapons and culture of the Tuareg's and surrounding tribal groups.
Anyone collecting or interested in these arms definitely needs to read these detailed and observant essays and notes.

[Iain]

I should mention the upper half of this sword is double edged. This might be an alteration made in Africa but it seems to me it was made this way.

Another unusual feature is the fuller at the bottom of the ricosso. I don't recall seeing any other backswords with a fuller there.

I would be pretty confident the second edge was done locally. I've seen this on other backsword blades in takouba mounts.

[Iain]

Are there any examples of the type of stamp used by European and African Smiths? ....It occurred to me that the Europeans used stamps but the African style looks like one chisel and mallet combination only...not stamps...and or...that African work was often scratched on. not stamped. It also looks like European letters had the small tails at the ends of uprights but African capitals did not. Am I right in thinking that European work was stamped whilst the blade was hot...and not a method used by African smiths...resulting in mis strikes and less depth to the strike??

The style of letters in use in European stamps depends entirely on region, date, etc. There's no standard rule about "tails".

Missed strikes and depth are down to how much care, attention and force is being used. Keep in mind the sort of blade we are looking at here is of a munitions standard, widely produced and exported for a range of types as nicely illustrated by Tordenskiold1721. These were made in bulk in forges using water powered trip hammers, grinding wheels etc. and it was very much an industry turning out a very high volume of product.

While it is my understanding that certain European proof marks were stamped cold, usually blade stamps of the age we are looking at were applied hot.

Personally I think that some stamps were used in an African context due to the appearance of certain marks on blades that are of inferior quality and likely to be locally made. If you want to browse http://takouba.org/catalog/index.php/blade-marks/half-moon-stamps/24 you'll find plenty of material in terms of comparing many swords with the same motif but some are obviously done in Europe and others in an African context.

I haven't done an exhaustive comparison of the details myself as my interests have generally been on other aspects. But to put it simply, I think some stamps, perhaps even sourced from Europe were around in local blade making centers in Africa like Sokoto, Kano etc. Outside of that engraving is more common and you will see this (again if we use the half moons as an example) quite often being used to imitate actual stamps.

[Iain]

Well done Ibrahiim!! Perfect link to Iain's site, and the terrific insight into the weapons and culture of the Tuareg's and surrounding tribal groups.
Anyone collecting or interested in these arms definitely needs to read these detailed and observant essays and notes.

I'm flattered folks, but please keep in my what you find on that link are only one person's opinion. :o

[blue lander]

I would be pretty confident the second edge was done locally. I've seen this on other backsword blades in takouba mounts.


In your experience, with other converted backswords are they reshaped all the way down to the ricasso or have you seen others that are double edge for just the top half of the blade?

The reason I'm curious is that the double edge part of the blade has a nice symmetrical oval cross section. If it was a conversion I'd expect the shape to still look like a backsword someone filed the spine off of rather than a properly shaped double edged sword.

Also, I've seen a couple schiavona backswords that are double sided for the upper 1/4th of the blade. I haven't seen one 1/2 double sided, though.

For instance,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=135378&postcount=9

[Iain]

In your experience, with other converted backswords are they reshaped all the way down to the ricasso or have you seen others that are double edge for just the top half of the blade?

The reason I'm curious is that the double edge part of the blade has a nice symmetrical oval cross section. If it was a conversion I'd expect the shape to still look like a backsword someone filed the spine off of rather than a properly shaped double edged sword.

Also, I've seen a couple schiavona backswords that are double sided for the upper 1/4th of the blade. I haven't seen one 1/2 double sided, though.

For instance,

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=135378&postcount=9

There's always a chance of a European blade having been made this way. The one's I've handled typically have the last 1/2 to 1/3 sharpened on the upper side.

[TVV]

I'm flattered folks, but please keep in my what you find on that link are only one person's opinion. :o

True, but your essays happen to be well supported, with observations based on a good amount of actual items, and referencing period sources like Barth. There is so little information out there that I have printed the takouba.org database and together with your articles consider these print outs the best "book" on the subject of Sahel weapons thus far.

Thank you,
Teodor

[Iain]

True, but your essays happen to be well supported, with observations based on a good amount of actual items, and referencing period sources like Barth. There is so little information out there that I have printed the takouba.org database and together with your articles consider these print outs the best "book" on the subject of Sahel weapons thus far.

Thank you,
Teodor

Thanks Teodor,

There are times I struggle to write due to a lack of inspiration and ideas. This thread is a bright spot in what is often a figurative desert with most extant examples being modern. It's really due to members like blue lander being willing to share their examples that I've written anything at all. For me the heart of weapons study will always be seeing as many examples as possible. Very little attention was devoted by previous researchers to the overall story of the takouba and its form, with more concern being paid to the European blade aspect or more ethnographic interests in leather work, current usage etc. All very valid and helpful areas of study but my passion has always been and still is the early moments of the takouba, where it came from, what the relation to other sword forms is, how it came to be an isolated and relatively preserved over time. Without folks like yourself to encourage me, I'd be tempted at times to give up and figure there's not much left to uncover. Thankfully this forum is a major aid in stimulating discussion and driving my passion forward. I'm truly grateful my attempts to shine a light on this obscure topic have been helpful.

[fernando]

... I have to say that an awful lot of stuff has been left somewhat stranded on the other forum including very important posts from members ...I don't disagree with posting on European ...quite the reverse... but would it not be better having the whole thread please?
Merging threads is an easy thing when both were started in the same forum; not so linear when each one is located in different forum sections, as one will vanish to the eyes of members who posted there. As eventually the item in discussion has both Ethno and European roots, there is the option to chose in which forum merged threads will be placed.
Perhaps is best that the threads author agrees with this merging. What do you say, blue lander ?

... and by the way, this merging exercises are not so often done; i hope this one works properly :cool:

[blue lander]

Yup, I agree one thread makes more sense

[fernando]

Done.