Long yatagan

[estcrh]

I was wondering if this yatagan was a typical type that I have not seen before or just an an anomaly. It is really a sword and not a short sword, the cutting edge is 34 inches and the total length is 40 inches, it has a very concave, Turkish ribbon blade with a T handle. For size comparison I have shown it next to another yatagan with a 24 inch cutting edge and a total length of 31 inches. Has anyone seen another yatagan of the same shape and size.

[mahratt]

This is a fairly well-known type of yataghan.

[Emanuel]

Hi Eric,

These big ones are associated with the Zeybeks. Have a look at this thread:
3 large yataghan (T-spine, T-pommel, Turkish Ribbon) (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18304)

and this one

Zeibek Yataghan with T-shaped pommel (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17790)I love the Turkish ribbon pattern on these.

Emanuel

[TVV]

Nice yataghan. I have noticed that yataghans from Asia Minor tend to be longer in general.

[Kubur]

They are also called Bashi Bouzouk or Bashi Bouzouk.
Mercenaries and warriors
It,s also the favourite insult of captain Haddock in Tintin...

[estcrh]

Thanks for the replies, while I have seen most of the old photos posted and a few similar T handled examples, what I was really looking for was to see one with a similar measurement. In the old photos you get an idea of length but no real details and the T handled one from Artzi has the same shape but it is obviously smaller.

I think a 40 inch/106.6cm sword is very long especially when not meant for mounted use. I am 6ft+ and have a long reach, this sword still seems unwieldy. The Zeybeck/Zeibek or Bashi Bouzouk/Bashi Bouzouk in the photos do not look very tall, what I was really interested in is the upper limit to the size of yatagan, I would like to verify that there are others of this size or was this just made extra long for a very tall Turk.

Below are various types of swords showing the size differences.

[Emanuel]

The threads I linked asked the same question regarding size. Longest ones posted were in the 90+ cm so your example 100+ seems the longest yet. Turkish ribbon also points to older manufacture. Any date on the blade?

[drac2k]

Great swords, wonderful pictures and I really like the long katar or is that a pata ?

[estcrh]

The threads I linked asked the same question regarding size. Longest ones posted were in the 90+ cm so your example 100+ seems the longest yet. Turkish ribbon also points to older manufacture. Any date on the blade?Emanuel, there are two gold marking on one side of the blade.
I have posted your T handled yatagan here and another long one.

The bottom one is 35 inches or 89cm total length, blade length is 29 inches or 74 cm.

The middle one according to your measurements has a 28" (71cm) long blade and the top one of yours has a 29" (74cm) blade that is 1.3cm thick at the base.

[Emanuel]

Thank you.
This thread was also linked Any larger yataghan? (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4448)

That thread showed 3 long yataghan
- 71cm blade
- 92cm overall
- 73cm blade
The last one you posted looks like an old one with the twist core and gold inlay cartouche. Oldest date I came across on mine was 1826 I believe. I can't make out anything in your cartouche.

Emanuel

[estcrh]

Thank you.
This thread was also linked Any larger yataghan? (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4448)

That thread showed 3 long yataghan
- 71cm blade
- 92cm overall
- 73cm blade
The last one you posted looks like an old one with the twist core and gold inlay cartouche. Oldest date I came across on mine was 1826 I believe. I can't make out anything in your cartouche.

EmanuelHere is your yatagan with integral bolster and no T handle that is dated 1239/1826, Turkish ribbon construction, brass inlay, 24"(60cm) long blade and 1cm thick.

[estcrh]

Overall length 92 cm.

[estcrh]

73 CM BLADE.

[ariel]

Your 1826 yataghan sports a "usual" blade.

What is interesting about Zeibek yataghans is their length, almost complete lack of decoration and the form and proportions of the blade. They do not have this elegant double-curve and the widening of the blade in the distal third, but are rather simply curved down, of relatively uniform width, often have a T-section and look relatively skinny vs. their exaggerated length. Also, similar to Bulgarian Karakulaks they have an integral bolster.Also, the triangular plates by the handle are very simple, unlike almost any other example.

This makes me believe that by and large Zeibeks did not use mass-produced blades from the Balkans and other large centers, but have created their own separate pattern of the entire weapon that was produced locally from the beginning to the end.

And you are right: the length must have made Zeibek yataghan clumsier than the classic one for a non-mounted warrior.

Did they use them on horseback? Like Caucasian shashkas? :-)

Very interesting......

Thanks for starting this discussion.

[estcrh]

the length must have made Zeibek yataghan clumsier than the classic one for a non-mounted warrior.

Did they use them on horseback? Like Caucasian shashkas? :-)

Very interesting......

Thanks for starting this discussion.I have been wondering what the purpose of this type of blade was, I can not recall seing a Zeybek on a horse, but it seems to me that Causasian/Circassian were not usually pictured on horses either, also would a concave blade be useful on a horse? Here is a comparison with a 600+ yr old Japanese tachi which had about the same amount of curve, just in the opposite direction. Tachi were used by mounted samurai and they were also longer and more curved than the later katana.

[ariel]

"Smiley face" in my post:-)))

No, of course, Yataghan is not a cavalry weapon. But when we talk about yataghans as "long knives" we may well remember the Zeibek example: ain't no knife.

[Emanuel]

Ariel, if by "usual" you mean usual Zeibek, then I agree. The blade has the same narrow profile and fat T-section, twist-core and substantial integral bolster.

This construction still makes me wonder as no Balkan-produced yataghan have integral bolsters. I agree with your long knife comment. The Balkan yataghan may indeed be long knives with thin blades, but these thick Ioanian ones are all sword.

[estcrh]

Great swords, wonderful pictures and I really like the long katar or is that a pata ?

That is a good question which relates to the yatagan swords being discussed here. Just as the yatagan sword is related to the yatagan short sord/knife, the katar gauntlet sword is obviously related to the kater push dagger. The kater gauntlet sword is not as closely related to the pata as the kater in my opinion even if they are similar looking.

Here are three discriptions of these long gauntlet katar swords by three different dealers.

Very Good Very Long 18C. Hooded Kattar

A very old version of the famous Kattar (Katar). A development stage between the Pata, the long gauntlet sword and the Kattar, the short push dagger. Very long and narrow blade 38 inches long. The cross bars are shaped like small balls. The handle is protected with a steel hood terminating in a styled monster head shaped tip. 44 inches total length. Very good condition to age. Well patinated .

Deccan South Indian Hindu rapier type katar

A scarce long 'rapier' bladed katar from South India, Vijayanagar. The hilt fully protected by steel guards, and bars, the uppermost decorated with a monsters head finial. There are faint designs of chiselled engraving visible beneath the patination. The long mounts supporting a thick stout tapering blade, possibly of wootz steel. Dark original uncleaned patina overall. 16th/17th century.

A fine & rare Tanjore Pata
Late 16th or early 17th century
A very rare sword
Southern India

An exceptional and very rare Tanjore Pata sword.

This fine example measures 106cms long and has a blade length of 90cms from the tip to the guard.
The hooded guard is approx 18cms long when measures at the side bars and it stands 10cms tall from the base to the top of the demons nose.
There are large ball grips within the hood, secured to the side bars but spin freely on their inner pins.
Supporting the hood is a four bar arrangement being centrally secured to the hood by a spiral domed final and decorative bars running down to the side bars.
Atop of the hood is demon like face bearing its teeth.
The long blade has well defined beveled cutting edges and a strong medial ridge and hollow forged fullers running through to the 12cms long thickened armour piercing tip. It is supported at the hilt with a 24cms long decorative languet pinned in three places with the two upper pins mounted through brass spiral rosettes that resemble eyes.

A very fine, large and rare fighting sword from the Southern Indian states, dating from the 16th -17th centuries and in exceptional condition for its age.

[estcrh]

"Smiley face" in my post:-)))

No, of course, Yataghan is not a cavalry weapon. But when we talk about yataghans as "long knives" we may well remember the Zeibek example: ain't no knife.

Ariel, if by "usual" you mean usual Zeibek, then I agree. The blade has the same narrow profile and fat T-section, twist-core and substantial integral bolster.

This construction still makes me wonder as no Balkan-produced yataghan have integral bolsters. I agree with your long knife comment. The Balkan yataghan may indeed be long knives with thin blades, but these thick Ioanian ones are all sword.

These very long yatagan were swords, while certainly not "cavalry" weapons they would have been useful to someone who rode horses and just how did the zeybek get around, did they walk everywere or did they ride horses. There must have been a reason that they were developed and used, just as the katar gauntlet sword was developed for a reason.

[ariel]

We have a tendency to believe that every peculiar construction of an Oriental weapon is a very well-thought feature cleverly invented by the locals to adapt to their unique circumstances and to fulfill a specific function.

There are, however, many examples of Oriental weapons that were just clumsy from an ergonomic or engineering point of view. While Europe always aimed for maximal functionality, the Orient gave much more emphasis to metaphysical, sacral, artistic or just exaggerated forms. Examples from India are abound, but the same tendency was seen elsewhere. Usually such examples were a dead-end model and tended to disappear quickly or to persist as ceremonial implements. Think Indian Bank with extremely curved ( almost 180 degrees ) blade, or Laz Bichaq, or Dhu-l-Fakar with two blades, or just a Shamshir with exaggerated curve.

Is it possible that the clumsy construction of the Zeibek Yataghan is just yet another example: too long and unwieldy for the infantry and too mechanically unsound for cavalry slashing?

After all, Zeibeks were quite an isolated and closed group with pretty unique appearance and clothing; why not their idiosyncratic weapon?

Kind of Ford Edsel or AMC Gremlin, or BMW Isetta of their day: a failed attempt:-)

[Sancar]

I hope you allow me put some historical context to the discussion: zeybeks were mostly active at the end of 19th century-early 20th century in Western Anatolia as irregular rural militia at best, but in reality mostly as cutthroat bandits. They can be likened to "cowboys" in American wild west. So as you can see, they mostly lived in a time period where importance of a bladed weapon faded quite fastly.

In that era, zeybek or town folk gentry, most people carried those so-called "zeybek yatağan"s as part of their costume,and as a sign of prestige(like court swords-smallswords) so the blades got longer and longer, well in to the 20th century. ;)

[ariel]

Fully agree.
This just strengthens my belief that this peculiar yataghan had very limited fighting ability and was neither a "long knife" nor a "sword".
Neither fish nor fowl:-)

There was very little need to improve it from the engineering point of view. Its clumsiness was of no relevance to an owner. Just " mine is longer than yours":-)

[estcrh]

I hope you allow me put some historical context to the discussion: zeybeks were mostly active at the end of 19th century-early 20th century in Western Anatolia as irregular rural militia at best, but in reality mostly as cutthroat bandits. They can be likened to "cowboys" in American wild west. So as you can see, they mostly lived in a time period where importance of a bladed weapon faded quite fastly.

In that era, zeybek or town folk gentry, most people carried those so-called "zeybek yatağan"s as part of their costume,and as a sign of prestige(like court swords-smallswords) so the blades got longer and longer, well in to the 20th century. ;)

Fully agree.
This just strengthens my belief that this peculiar yataghan had very limited fighting ability and was neither a "long knife" nor a "sword".
Neither fish nor fowl:-)

There was very little need to improve it from the engineering point of view. Its clumsiness was of no relevance to an owner. Just " mine is longer than yours":-)

I think that some research will prove that your beliefs are just not accurate. Both modern and period accounts relate that zeibeks (zeibeck, ziebek, zeybek) were much more than what you are mentioning. Evidence shows that they were in fact employed during certain military conflicts as irregular troops.

The brutality and atrocities committed by these irregular troops (including the zeibek) is well documented. I have no doubt that the yatagan swords being discussed are weapons and not "part of their costume, and as a sign of prestige", at least during the periods of military conflicts between Turkey and its neighbors during the 1800s.

After their job as defacto soldiers came to an end they most probably assumed the role being mentioned but they were previously most certainly fighters with a vicious reputation. There is no reason to assume that zeibek weapons from their period of military employment were anything other real weapons and not some kind of prop or "sign of prestige". The long scythe type blade would work perfectly for mowing people down.


References.

The War Correspondence of the "Daily News," 1877-8, Continued from the Fall of Kars to the Signature of the Preliminaries of Peace: With a Connecting Narrative Forming a Continuous History of the War Between Russia and Turkey, Volume 1, Archibald Forbes, Januarius Aloysius MacGahan Macmillan and Company, 1878.

The Liberation of Bulgaria: War Notes in 1877, Bliss, Sands and Foster, 1894.

The Armenian Crisis in Turkey: The Massacre of 1894, Its Antecedents and Significance, with a Consideration of Some of the Factors which Enter Into the Solution of this Phase of the Eastern Question, Frederick Davis Greene G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1895 - (Armenian massacres, 1894-1896).

War in Bulgaria: A Narrative of Personal Experiences, Volume 1, Valentine Baker Low, Marston, Searle, & Rivington, 1879 - (Russo-Turkish War, 1877-1878)

Crisis of the Ottoman Empire: Prelude to Collapse 1839-1878, James J. Reid Franz Steiner Verlag, 2000.

The Making of a Novelist: An Experiment in Autobiography, David Christie, Murray Chatto & Windus, 1894.

Accounts and Papers of the House of Commons, Volume 83, Great Britain. Parliament. House of Commons Ordered to be printed, 1878.

[ariel]

They must have been great "irregulars", but as weapon engineers they got " gentleman's C-"

And, true: they dressed funny:-)

And what about their habit of holding their heavy yataghans in their teeth? Their dentists must have been busy 24/7.

[Timo Nieminen]

I think a 40 inch/106.6cm sword is very long especially when not meant for mounted use. I am 6ft+ and have a long reach, this sword still seems unwieldy.

How heavy is it?

[estcrh]

How heavy is it?
Timo, it weighs about 1.5lb / .68kg

[Timo Nieminen]

I haven't yet met a sword of less than 700g that I felt was unwieldy. Not an unusual length for an infantry sword.

That said, a very light-hilted sword (which some would say "blade-heavy" instead) will feel different. Differently-wieldy, at least. (I feel this with my shorter (27" blade) and lighter (400g) yatagan.)

I wonder exactly what role the ears play when you're moving it around at speed (note to self: swing my yatagan around at speed and see).

[estcrh]

I haven't yet met a sword of less than 700g that I felt was unwieldy. Not an unusual length for an infantry sword.

That said, a very light-hilted sword (which some would say "blade-heavy" instead) will feel different. Differently-wieldy, at least. (I feel this with my shorter (27" blade) and lighter (400g) yatagan.)

I wonder exactly what role the ears play when you're moving it around at speed (note to self: swing my yatagan around at speed and see).I am just used to shorter swords, this particular yatagan when held with my arm fully extended has a reach of around 5 ft, I am sure there was a technique behind its use. Maybe European infantry swords had a similar length but it is unusual for most 19th century Indo-Persian and Japanese swords to be this long I think. Seeing that the zeybek were an experienced military force I can not believe that they would choose to use a sword that was not suitable for fighting and was just for looks/intimidation etc.

[Timo Nieminen]

I am just used to shorter swords, this particular yatagan when held with my arm fully extended has reach of around 5 ft, I am sure there was a technique behind its use. Maybe European infantry swords had a similar length but it is unusual for most 19th century Indo-Persian and Japanese swords to be this long I think. Seeing that the zeybek were an experienced military force I can not believe that they would choose to use a sword that was not suitable for fighting and was just for looks/intimidation etc.

32-33" of blade is common for British infantry swords, and some other countries issued similar. At the same time, 35-36" might be seen on cavalry swords.

Moving away from military swords, you can find rapiers where the blade alone exceeds the total length of your yatagan. Now those would be unwieldy in the cut (but would also weight twice as much as your yatagan, as well as being longer).

About 95cm total length looks typical for Persian shamshirs, so not that different. Also not too hard to find Indian swords of similar length (e.g., khandas and tulwars) but these are perhaps longer than usual for the types (but some types were often quite a bit longer, e.g., firangi, pata). You might not call those infantry swords, but they were used on foot.

As for technique, try this:

Start with the hilt back, near your shoulder. Hold the sword with a fairly relaxed grip. Elbow downwards, forearm approximately vertical. Then push the sword forwards. Don't make a big effort to swing the sword. Put a little effort into swinging it, and a lot of effort into just moving it forwards. As your arm approached full extension, your hand will slow down, and the hilt will slow down. Let the sword pivot about where the ears are against your hand, and its forward speed will convert into a fast rotation into the target. Maybe as the blade is about to hit the target, you should tighten your grip on the hilt and help push the blade into the target. After hitting the target, pull down on the ears, draw-cutting across the target.

[Emanuel]

Timo,

I have similarly-sized tulwar and kirach with relatively heavy blades compared to the handle. I could see these used with the same technique leading with the hilt and letting the sword pivot into a draw-cut.

[Emanuel]

On another note, the lithograph below is attributed to Prince Grigory Grigorievich Gagarin and supposedly dated 1839.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1107123/zeibeck-zeybek-lithograph-gagarin/

I've tried tracking down the original publication by the French publisher Roger & Cie. but no luck. This would make it the earliest dated illustration of Zeibek costume and gear and would push much further back the dates of these yataghan. Gagarin dies in 1893 so that would make a more plausible date :shrug:

[estcrh]

On another note, the lithograph below is attributed to Prince Grigory Grigorievich Gagarin and supposedly dated 1839.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1107123/zeibeck-zeybek-lithograph-gagarin/

I've tried tracking down the original publication by the French publisher Roger & Cie. but no luck. This would make it the earliest dated illustration of Zeibek costume and gear and would push much further back the dates of these yataghan. Gagarin dies in 1893 so that would make a more plausible date :shrug:

Emanual I have been looking for earlier dated info on Zeybek as well, this painting by Charles Gleyre (1808-1874) is supposedly dated 1834,
"Zeibeck of Smyrna". Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.

[ariel]

Interesting.... The pommel is not a typical Zeybek. The pants are not right..

Either Zeybeks changed their appearance and weapons, or .... can we trust iconography?

[Sancar]

Ariel, it is not a strict uniform, just the local costume. ;) And not specific to zeybeks either. This is mostly similar to most town folk wore in Ottoman Anatolia and Balkans in 19th century.

And that so-called "Zeybek" yatagan with T shaped ears. That is not specific to zeybeks either. It is just easier to make than a real ear shaped handle. And in late 19th century-early 20th century small town blacksmiths were not expert swordsmiths like in earlier times, so most made those ears T shaped because it was easier to make. Some yatagans that were made earlier also got those T shaped pommels when their original fancy handles got fallen apart and their owners or the local knifesmith made these simple handles for them.

Zeybek yatagan is just a name given by contemporary antique dealers, just to make it easier to classify and make it sound more important.

[ariel]

True enough. But all photographs ( not paintings) of Zeybeks show typical T-formed ears. Can you show a photograph of Zeybek with the yataghan handle of the pattern shown in the pic by Gleyre?

I have a healthy ( or pathological :-) doubt about paintings. Just my personal IMHO. Ready to change my mind, though.

[Sancar]

I understand that. As an art historian I know especially orientalist paintings have a great notoriety for being unreliable; it is to such a degree, it became one of the definitive aspects of orientalist european art. It seems artists that travelled "east" for insipration, did not find "east" as "oriental" or "exotic" enough, so they took the artistic licence to a whole new level, like using objects together that had nothing to do with each other, changing architecture, flora and fauna(basically putting Magribi horseshoe arches, palm trees and camels everywhere) as they wished.

But I wouldn't be so quick to trust photographs either. Especially the kinds of photos taken in studios. Let me give you some context: Photography came really early to Ottoman empire, earlier than even most European countries and it spread like wild fire. There were photo studios in almost every city, even some towns. studio of Abdullah Brothers(Frers Abdullah) of Istanbul being the most famous.

And almost all studios had a very large costume department. Customers, usually Western tourists, used to come to these studios to be photographed with those local exotic "oriental" clothes and props in front of painted fake background, making their visits immortalized. Also postcards were made for purchase in these studios, and again, local people were paid to wear different costumes and their photos were taken, being sold under titles like "an oriental harem woman" or "a notorious zeibek" something fancy and exotic like that.

And as you can imagine, those costumes and props were designed to be fancy, colourful, exotic,intesersting. And many were mismatched, from different eras/places were worn together: a circassian overcoat with a Moroccan fez, or a Bosnian jacket with a Turkistani fur hat and a black sea yatagan etc.

So most people in those Zeybek photos are likely either tourists or just amateur models, instead of the real deal. ;)

[estcrh]

So most people in those Zeybek photos are likely either tourists or just amateur models, instead of the real deal. ;)Do you have any proof of that..."most people"...is a very vague term, can you show some examples of what you consider to be "tourists / amateur models? What about first hand descriptions from travelers to the region during the 1800s to eatly 1900s, are they unreliable as well?

People make the exact same statement about photos taken in Japan of samurai during the late 1800s, they say that they are studio models but that is not accurate as many photos are authentic, as with anything you have to use some judgement.

[ariel]

Sancar,

I never thought of that.
Thanks.
Come to think of that, you might be partially correct: there are plenty of pre-WWI Russian studio photographs from the Caucasus with similarly incoherent exotic portraits, such as plump Slavic women dressed in Cossack garb and armed to the teeth etc.
Still, I would believe that most pictures from everywhere were authentic in regard to accoutrements. Posing is another cup of tea:-)

[Sancar]

Well, I can refer to several books that I read about history of photography in the Ottoman Empire, but all are in Turkish I'm afraid. Even if they were in English, I doubt you would be satisfied until every person in every photo is proven beyond reasonable doubt to not to be a zeybek; confirmation bias is tricky like that. :)

I can't disprove those were not zeybeks, but keep in mind, those zeybeks were outlaws who could not easily walk to a big city photo studio with all their weapons for their photos to be taken. Not to mention, since the usual way to become a zeybek was either running from the law for murdering someone in their "civilian" life, or deserting from the army(both crimes punishable by hanging) those people wouldn't prefer to let their faces to be known by authorities. Actually most of them lived in mountains and rarely even go down to rural villages because they would be risking their lives, (being ambushed by soldiers or rival gangs, or even villagers themselves) every time they leave those mountains. There are some photos of famous zeybek leaders(Efe) but those were taken either after they were arrested, or pardoned(for volunteering to join Ottoman army with all of their forces for war).

So, as you say, using our judgement, which possibility is more likely?

[Sancar]

Sancar,

I never thought of that.
Thanks.

You're most welcome, Ariel :)

[estcrh]

Well, I can refer to several books that I read about history of photography in the Ottoman Empire, but all are in Turkish I'm afraid. Even if they were in English, I doubt you would be satisfied until every person in every photo is proven beyond reasonable doubt to not to be a zeybek; confirmation bias is tricky like that. :)

How about posting some examples of these supposed zeybek, you must know of some that you personally think are not authentic, do not worry about whether or not I would be "satisfied", it is your belief so support it.

[Emanuel]

Eric,

I recall that some of the zeibek pictures you added to your Pinterest thread had captions like "western man in zeibek costume with harem woman" or something like that. The photos by Pascal Sebah and his sons for example, they had a studio in Istanbul and produced some of the Zeibek postcards from 1857. Actually a lot of these shots come from Pascal's "Les Costumes Populaires de la Turquie en 1873" published for the Vienna Expo 1873.

http://www.luminous-lint.com/app/contents/fra/_photographer_pascal_sebah_les_costumes_populaires _de_la_turquie_en_1873_01/

Sancar it makes sense to me that the simple T-pommels are later replacements of broken ears, however I am surprised that it became so standardized. These must have been produced in a very localized geographic area. As for the sizes of the blades, some of these are clearly early 19th, not late. Contemporary with other Balkan yataghan at a time when they were used, not just as a symbol.

Emanuel

[estcrh]

Sancar, you make these types of statements and then you do not supply ANY references to back up anything you say. You dispute photos, drawings and first hand accounts, why is this, who can take anything you say seriously when you make statements and then just disappear without ever making an attempt to back up what you say???

In my opinion you are wrong on ALL accounts here, zeybeck were not simply bandits and irregular rural militia, there is a lot of evidence that they actively worked with the Ottoman goverment and the later Turkish government on many military fronts right up to the 1920s. Zeybeck were a recognised group and you did not just become a zeybek by murdering someome etc. They did not dress in the same way as everyone, that is pointed out by multiple first hand descriptions from many sources and they were not just hiding away afraid to be seen as many first hand accounts show. I do not know were you are getting your information from but it does not mesh with what people who lived in that period of time say.

As for the yatagan grips, many other ethnic groups such as Samurai, Albanians and Circassians etc were known for wearing specific types of clothing and carrying certain types of weapons, they did this on purpose, it was a UNIFORM that allowed people to recognise them as a specific group. Not all of members of these groups dressed exactly the same but enough did so that there clothing and weapons became a trademark. The zeybek were no different, they for the most part wore distinctive clothing and weapons so they could be identified.

The photos and drawings and first hand discriptions over and over show a distinct way of dress, just like Samurai, Albanians Circassians etc and this can simply be ignored just because you say so, please come up with some proof or stop posting unsubstantiated beliefs as though they were known facts. While some photos are certainly not authentic there are enough known authentic photos and descriptions to show that Zeybek did dress in the way shown photos and drawings, at what point in time they started doing this may be questioned.

You have not mentioned the fact that first hand accounts show that in some military fronts thousands of Zeybek are said to have fought, this is not just a gang of men who joined the military to keep out of trouble. Zeybeck were part of a planned force of men who were openly allowed to murder, pillage, rape and assist the regular Ottoman / Turkish military on many occasions, why are you ignoring this???


I hope you allow me put some historical context to the discussion: zeybeks were mostly active at the end of 19th century-early 20th century in Western Anatolia as irregular rural militia at best, but in reality mostly as cutthroat bandits. They can be likened to "cowboys" in American wild west. So as you can see, they mostly lived in a time period where importance of a bladed weapon faded quite fastly.

In that era, zeybek or town folk gentry, most people carried those so-called "zeybek yatağan"s as part of their costume,and as a sign of prestige(like court swords-smallswords) so the blades got longer and longer, well in to the 20th century. ;)

Ariel, it is not a strict uniform, just the local costume. ;) And not specific to zeybeks either. This is mostly similar to most town folk wore in Ottoman Anatolia and Balkans in 19th century.

And that so-called "Zeybek" yatagan with T shaped ears. That is not specific to zeybeks either. It is just easier to make than a real ear shaped handle. And in late 19th century-early 20th century small town blacksmiths were not expert swordsmiths like in earlier times, so most made those ears T shaped because it was easier to make. Some yatagans that were made earlier also got those T shaped pommels when their original fancy handles got fallen apart and their owners or the local knifesmith made these simple handles for them.

Zeybek yatagan is just a name given by contemporary antique dealers, just to make it easier to classify and make it sound more important.

keep in mind, those zeybeks were outlaws who could not easily walk to a big city photo studio with all their weapons for their photos to be taken. Not to mention, since the usual way to become a zeybek was either running from the law for murdering someone in their "civilian" life, or deserting from the army(both crimes punishable by hanging) those people wouldn't prefer to let their faces to be known by authorities. Actually most of them lived in mountains and rarely even go down to rural villages because they would be risking their lives, (being ambushed by soldiers or rival gangs, or even villagers themselves) every time they leave those mountains.



So most people in those Zeybek photos are likely either tourists or just amateur models, instead of the real deal. ;)

[Sancar]

estrch, there are many mixtures of truth and misinformation, and tons of orientalist bias in those quotes you post (even that "Zeibek, the name of a Turkish tribe in the region of Smyrna" quote make me want to choke myself to death, to be honest). I can try to explain and correct them one by one.There is a great deal of historical and socio-cultural context to this subject that can help to correct some misconceptions, and I can try to write for hours to try to give a brief summary of it, but I won't.

Because it feels really really really frustrating to try to explain something that is such a common knowledge, to a foreigner. And whatever I'll do, I feel it will turn personal and unpleasent. Because I feel like I'm trying to prove the sky is blue or water is wet, and even though you have every right to ask for sources, I feel no answer will satisfy you and even though if I can dig up some sources that are half-correct and non-biased, I can't just explain the whole socio-cultural and historical context to you without writing a whole book about it. There is just soo much confusion, misconception and bias already I wouldn't even know where to start even if I wanted to.

And that is exactly why I always have a tendency to refrain from commenting to threads that involve my own culture. It feels like I'm giving directions to my home and you're asking for proof.

So, why don't you feel free to disbelieve the information that I wrote and we just agree to disagree? Let's just say I'm just b.s.ing from the top of my head and let's not further this discussion in any way. If you agree let's move on and don't even feel the need to answer this post. :)

[ariel]

Estcrh,
Having read the references you cited, I can't help but notice that they seem to support every point mentioned by Sancar and are contradicting your conclusions.
I think Sancar is right: let's drop it and keep our own interpretations of facts and events.

[Ian]

Guys:

If this continues, the personal comments and attacks here are going to get this thread closed and significant restrictions handed out to the offenders. I have edited the more egregious exchanges. Knock it off or face the consequences!

Ian.

[estcrh]

About 95cm total length looks typical for Persian shamshirs, so not that different. Also not too hard to find Indian swords of similar length (e.g., khandas and tulwars) but these are perhaps longer than usual for the types (but some types were often quite a bit longer, e.g., firangi, pata). You might not call those infantry swords, but they were used on foot.

As for technique, try this:

Start with the hilt back, near your shoulder. Hold the sword with a fairly relaxed grip. Elbow downwards, forearm approximately vertical. Then push the sword forwards. Don't make a big effort to swing the sword. Put a little effort into swinging it, and a lot of effort into just moving it forwards. As your arm approached full extension, your hand will slow down, and the hilt will slow down. Let the sword pivot about where the ears are against your hand, and its forward speed will convert into a fast rotation into the target. Maybe as the blade is about to hit the target, you should tighten your grip on the hilt and help push the blade into the target. After hitting the target, pull down on the ears, draw-cutting across the target.

Timo, I tried variations of your method and eventually I found that by facing a target sideways and holding the sword blade parellel with the ground it was very easy to pivot with a thrusting motion into the target. Using this method on a large box it seemed much easier than trying to thrust with a straight sword without feeling off balance, over a certain amount of curve makes it hard to do the same thing with a convex bladed sword.

Below is a comparison view, while some are very near the yatagan in size many are not. You have to look at what types of sword the Zeybek may have encountered when in Turkey and in the military conflicts they participated in against Bulgarians, Armenians, Greeks etc, most if not all would have been convex bladed swords.

[estcrh]

Eric,

I recall that some of the zeibek pictures you added to your Pinterest thread had captions like "western man in zeibek costume with harem woman" or something like that. The photos by Pascal Sebah and his sons for example, they had a studio in Istanbul and produced some of the Zeibek postcards from 1857. Actually a lot of these shots come from Pascal's "Les Costumes Populaires de la Turquie en 1873" published for the Vienna Expo 1873.

http://www.luminous-lint.com/app/contents/fra/_photographer_pascal_sebah_les_costumes_populaires _de_la_turquie_en_1873_01/

Emanual, this may interest you, it is an essay on Zeybek postcards, mostly in Turkish.

Kartpostallarda Zeybek ve Başıbozuk İmgesi
The Zeibek and Başıbozuk Image in the Postcads

Abstract
Zeybeks became an interest to the West, this was part of a general interest for the East. This article shows postcards of zeybeks who are sometimes named as başibozuk. These postcards mostly concentrate on the clothing of zeybeks and are often photographed in studios.
Keywords: Efe, zeybek, başibozuk, postcard, drawing, painting.

http://actaturcica.com/_media/2014-07/vi_ii_27.pdf

[Emanuel]

Thank you Eric.
The majority of these seem to be mid-late-19th century though.
We don't have much to go on for earlier accoutrements and weaponry.

[estcrh]

Thank you Eric.
The majority of these seem to be mid-late-19th century though.
We don't have much to go on for earlier accoutrements and weaponry.
Emanuel, actually I was hoping that someone could translate what was written about these zeybek postcards, maybe there is some additional info as to their authenticity etc. As for early info, that seems to be rather scarce, there is some reference to a Zeybek revolt in 1829 but other than some short remarks it seems that they did not get much early written attention until they started to be used as an irregular armed suppliment to the Ottoman/Turkish military. Their involvement in certain regional military conflicts has been noted but as far as any detailed examination of their origins and weapons etc I have not seen that.

Another problem is that there are many different versions of their name, you have Zeybek, Zeibek, Ziebek, Zeybeck, Zeibeck, Ziebeck, in addition they have been lumped into the term "bashi bazouk" and while some Zeybek were bashi bazouk, there were many other groups and segments of Ottoman society who were also bashi bazouk. Unless a discussion of bashi bazouk specifically mentioned Zeybek or included an image or costume description it is impossible to know exactly who was being called a bashi bazouk.

[Emanuel]

Eric, let's see if Sancar can assist :)
Hopefully there's something relevant in there. Agreed that an understanding of who was identified as Zeibek at different times and places is tricky.

[werecow]

I actually meant to put this 113 cm yataghan (http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=286167&postcount=16) here, so making a cross link for posterity.