Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2

[nechesh]

Well, i think it's time to start transferring some favorite and on going threads to the new system. Here's the old thread for reference: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002285-2.html
One of our Filippino friends mentioned that he would like to see a rousing epic of the Moros battle with the Spanish. I must agree that this would make a great film, given the right script and direction.
I would personally like to see someone do something about the Balinese Puputans. This could be a glorious period piece filled with deep meaning and purpose, colonial exploitation, exotic color, great battles, tragedy and best of all.....beautiful keris! Can't image what they've been waiting for with this one. :)

[Rick]

Who knows anything about the new Beowulf movie that is in the works ?

[Radu Transylvanicus]

:cool: thanks for ,,zee kredit,, Nechesh ... :rolleyes:

[Rick]

Well, i think it's time to start transferring some favorite and on going threads to the new system. Here's the old thread for reference: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002285-2.html
One of our Filippino friends mentioned that he would like to see a rousing epic of the Moros battle with the Spanish. I must agree that this would make a great film, given the right script and direction.
I would personally like to see someone do something about the Balinese Puputans. This could be a glorious period piece filled with deep meaning and purpose, colonial exploitation, exotic color, great battles, tragedy and best of all.....beautiful keris! Can't image what they've been waiting for with this one. :)

I'd vote for a really well done film of Jos. Conrad's THE RESCUE !
Have any read this story ?
Would make an amazing film .

[Adni Aljunied]

Since my chilhood days, I've watched many of the late P.Ramlee's Malay movies with admiration and he is considered by many here as a true legend as an actor, director, singer, composer etc.
After growing up with more indepth knowledge of the kerises and more observant about them, I have noticed many of P.Ramlee's movies using the keris with some "sad" circumstances. Nothing at all bad about his movies, which are all evergreen and very well done, whether it's a traditional comedy or historically or folklore inclined. It's just that I feel a little "tingy" when I see a Malay warrior or even a king with his traditional Malay attire of the "tanjak" and "samping", but having a Javanese Ladrangan keris stuck to his waist. It can also go the other way too when the story is about a Javanese.

Times have changed, but sadly the movie makers are still making the same mistakes. One very recent moive called "Putri Gunung Ledang" which was quite hyped up while in the making cause it was the most expensive movie ever made in Malaysia to the tune of RM20 million! The cast was "extravagant" and the director has had experiences in Holywood, and I was made to "dream" of the movie to be one that will put right many previous lackluster productions. BUT, so sadly, it was'nt much of an inspiring movie at all. The title is Princess Mount Ophir, a princess who played a big role in the entire story of the more famous Malay warriors, Hang Tuah, Hang Jebat etc.with a very "bad" king at the time of the Malacca Sultanate. Hang Tuah's keris, and arguably the most famous Malay keris of all time, the Taming Sari, is so sadly depicted more like a cross between a Balinese and a Sumatran keris, although there are no records of how it looks like, any keris enthusiast would have laughed at it instantly!! A few of the story line are questionable, and most of the fighting scenes are relying more on mystical powers rather than the art of Silat self defense. All in all, it was a huge letdown, esp. with the 20 million tag.
The late P.Ramlee's movie about Hang Tuah and the same legendary stories have more concrete story lines and stronger impact on viewers, me inlcuded. This 20 million movie is more of a love story that is more in line with Bollywood story lines, and the only compliment i can give is the attire, which just like Bollywood is "imaculous".
Worst part is that i hear this movie will be involved in, or is already a candidate for an award in the comming Cannes film festival.
For those of you curious enough, the link below has a very accurate story and pictures from P.Ramlee's films of the good old days.
http://sg.wrs.yahoo.com/SIG=120srqcqu;_ylt=Aj1xfLd7M9MHFQwybLh4ODUj4gt.;_y lu=X3oDMTA2bTQ0OXZjBHNlYwNzcg--/**http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabrizain.demon.co.uk%2Fmalaya% 2Fmelaka3.htm
And the picutre attached is the 20 million movie, which is on sale, easily available and very cheap!

[Kamil]

A thing wortrh of seeing - "The Pharaoh" - one of the best movies on Ancient Egypt ever done (and I know what I say, as Egyptology is my job). It is Polish movie from 1965 (Oscar nominee of 1967), available on DVD and VHS. A lot of Egyptian weapons, battle scenes etc. The action is fictitious, but the scenography has been prepared by Egyptologists.

[Battara]

And don't forget "The Legend of Suriyothai" with lots and lots of dha! :D (mentioned in an earlier thread).

[zamboanga]

check out the temple scene. brutal showdown of bladed weapons vs. firearms.

[Naga Basuki]

And don't forget "The Legend of Suriyothai" with lots and lots of dha! :D (mentioned in an earlier thread).

Just saw this movie. It has become one of my all-time favorites. For those who have not seen it, I highly recommend. Press relaease below.

Chatrichalerm Yukol's The Legend of Suriyothai (2001), produced by Francis Ford Coppola.

When a movie is clearly intended as its country's national epic, it carries interest for more than its entertainment value or artistry. The Legend of Suriyothai, the highest-grossing film in the history of Thailand, was directed and co-written by a prince of the royal Thai family (Chatri Chalerm Yukol). It was also lavishly funded by the queen of Thailand, based on a famous historical tale of intrigue, romance and war among Thai royals in the 16th century. And it was shot on the original locations with a cast that included dozens of speaking parts, 3,500 extras and 160 elephants. It's the equivalent of our Gone With the Wind, Russia's War and Peace or, to take a more modest example, South Korea's Chunhyang. Sheer ambition and grandiose make the film interesting.

Beautifully designed and photographed, Legend of Suriyothai centers on brave Suriyothai, Thai's national royal heroine (played by M.L. Piyapas Bhirombhakdi). In the course of the film's tale, Suriyothai sacrifices herself again and again for her beloved Thailand. First, in youth, she abandons her passionate lifelong love for handsome soldier Pirenthorathep, or "Piren" for short (played by Chatchai Plengpanich), and instead marries the monkish Prince Thienracha, or "Tien" (Sarunyoo Wongkrchang). Tien and Suriyothai lead a sumptuous but unexciting life, raising children and posing before royal gardens, as Thailand is plunged into both civil and external war - often with its incredibly obstreperous neighbor, Burma.

Then, however, the country falls into the scheming hands of beautiful but evil ex-courtesan Srisudachan (Mai Charoenpura), who poisons her lover, King Chairacha (Pongpat Wachirabunjong), and installs yet another lover, perfidious Lord Warawongsa (Johnny Anfone) from the House of U-Thong, in his place - temporarily ending the reign of the Phra Ruang dynasty, to which Suriyothai, Tien and Piren all belong. Fearlessly, Suriyothai and gallant warrior Piren strike back, settling Srisudachan's hash, retiring the U-Thong gang and bringing back Tien from the monastery. But just as the heroes try to calm things down a little, the pugnacious king of Burma comes roaring across the border again with his army and his elephants, setting the stage for one last incredible Suriyothai sacrifice.

Obviously, they love this stuff in Thailand. And you can see why. Suriyothai is Scarlett O'Hara, Queen Elizabeth, Jackie Kennedy and Wonder Woman rolled up in one.

As it is, the movie's luscious design and rich cinematography make it worth watching - though you'd be well advised to study a synopsis (like this one) carefully before trying to watch it. It is possible to have a good time seeing Suriyothai's legend, even if you can't spell her name. ? Michael Wilmington, CHICAGO TRIBUNE"

And a big thanks for Jose "The DHA" for bringing it to my attention!

[Battara]

You're quite welcome Naga Basuki. It has become one of my favorite movies and the main character is in the royal court herself, never acted before and did a superb job. Glad someone else has had a chance to appreciate it.

Also congratulations on your recent PI eBay acquistions (envy, envy, grumble, grumble.....).

[moose]

Got to see this movie the other day. I highly recommend it. Thanks to those who pointed it out as I would have whoosed right by it channel surfing. Saved it to the hard drive. :D

Lot's of Dha!! A couple of questions?

Has anybody seen in person one of those big ones wielded from the back of an elephant? Ever got to hold one? :eek:

I was suprised to see all the smaller dha used in a two-handed chopper / slasher style.
Where was the krabi-krabong two swords two hands supposedly of the royal guards? :mad:

I realize as a student of the Philipine martial arts and bladed weapons in general that in the heat of the battle all drills can go right out the window.

I still thought we would have seen at least someone like the scar-faced dude wielding two if in fact it's supposed to be decended from thai royalty guardsmen.

Just asking,

moose

[Federico]

Watched the Legend of Suriothai a while back as well, was wondering if anyone knew where they got their sword props. Alot of them looked nice, and not egrigious touristy junk. Amazing assortment of lavishly decotrated dha. Very well done visually, the interview with director (a royal prince himself) was real cool, and would be interesting to see his other movies (well non-weapon related, still sounds like interesting stuff). Would have been amazing to see what could have been done with better trained actors (as has been stated the lead is not an actress but a courtier). Though the deleted scenes are awesome as well, a shame that they were cut.

[Rick]

Suriyothai , yes !
I've got that DVD , a wonderful film .

Speaking of films , has anyone seen The Ring of Fire a documentary series on Indonesia that was made in the '70's by the Blair brothers ?

I first saw it on PBS and loved it .

It is now available on DVD ; my lovely Wife bought it for me at Christmas (five hours long). :D

[Battara]

I'm so pleased that everyone is enjoying "Legend of Suriothai". :) Here is another movie by one of my all time favorite directors, Kurosawa: "Ran". It takes place in medieval Japan and the story line itself is an adaptation of Shakespear's "King Lear". Actually I recommend all of his films like "Kogamusha", "Seven Samurai", and "Sanguro", etc. :) More recently I like the action and true sword play in the "Kill Bill" series. :cool:

Rick, yes I saw the Ring of Fire series and I thought it wonderfully done.

[Rick]

God help me , but I do dearly love Branagh's production of Henry V . :)

[Andrew]

Has anybody seen in person one of those big ones wielded from the back of an elephant? Ever got to hold one? :eek:


Hi Moose,

I've not seen the end of the movie yet ( :o ), but I have seen some very large dha. One in my collection measures 58", and could easily be late Ayutthaya/early Ratanakosin period.

[Rick]

Possibly it may look similar to this piece Artzi sold recently ?

This sword being seemingly socketed in construction could be configured as a short pole arm , no ?

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1461

[Naga Basuki]

Suriyothai , yes !
I've got that DVD , a wonderful film .

Speaking of films , has anyone seen The Ring of Fire a documentary series on Indonesia that was made in the '70's by the Blair brothers ?

I first saw it on PBS and loved it .

It is now available on DVD ; my lovely Wife bought it for me at Christmas (five hours long). :D

Was this the one that featured John Chang, "The Magus of Java?" Personally did not really like the book, but I do know a guy who claims to know Chang personally. Lives in Surabaya, Java. Chang does seem to have some real power.

Would love to see the DVD

[Rick]

The person in the film is referred to in the titles as dynamo Jack , could be him .
If I recall he was referred to as an acupuncturist, doctor/healer .
He did do some demonstrations , one included making a piece of crumpled paper catch fire .

That is in the East of Krakatoa chapter .

Anyway, a great cultural mind trip of a series .

www.mysticfire.com

[moose]

Andrew,
I don't want to give away the ending. ;) But the swords wielded from the back of the elephants are truly gargantuan.

Maybe I'm off base hear and they are not considered in the Dha family??

Looked like they were at first glance.

moose

[Battara]

God help me , but I do dearly love Branagh's production of Henry V . :)

Rick that is my favorite rendition of Henry V as well. :D

BTW - on the backs of those elephants, I too thought those were considered dha. And "dha" fighting on the back of the elephants!

[nechesh]

OK, i HIGHLY recommend you all go see the new Ridley Scott film "Kingdom of Heaven". The repros in it are absolutely amazing, especially some of the Muslim armor. Beautiful swords, great battle scenes, but ultimately a film more about peace than war. The acting is great, the cinematography sumptuous and Oscar-worthy. Actually worth the $8.50 and a must-see on the big screen. :)

[BluErf]

It was a nice movie with laudable messages of courage, honour, love, peace, humanity, faith and very importantly, an attempt (not perfect, I agree) at unbiased portrayal of both Christian and Muslim sides. And Ghassan Moussad (portraying Salahuddin) has a laser-beam stare that will burn right through you :) .

But too bad, many people who saw it were bickering over historical technicalities.

Now back to the arms and armour -- I like the part when Balian duelled with the Muslim cavalier for possession of the black horse. The sword (forgive me, but I do not know the name of it) used by the Muslim cavalier looked like a very efficient slasher with a mean chop.

Now, the close-up of Salahuddin's helm was a bit of a disappointment to my novice eyes. Having seen some of the more ornate helms put on auction before, I thought it could have been finer. But then again, functional armour may not be as ornate as parade fineries.

[M.carter]

It was a nice movie with laudable messages of courage, honour, love, peace, humanity, faith and very importantly, an attempt (not perfect, I agree) at unbiased portrayal of both Christian and Muslim sides. And Ghassan Moussad (portraying Salahuddin) has a laser-beam stare that will burn right through you :) .

But too bad, many people who saw it were bickering over historical technicalities.

Now back to the arms and armour -- I like the part when Balian duelled with the Muslim cavalier for possession of the black horse. The sword (forgive me, but I do not know the name of it) used by the Muslim cavalier looked like a very efficient slasher with a mean chop.

Now, the close-up of Salahuddin's helm was a bit of a disappointment to my novice eyes. Having seen some of the more ornate helms put on auction before, I thought it could have been finer. But then again, functional armour may not be as ornate as parade fineries.

Yeah, Ghassan Massoud was an excellent actor for this character I liked his stare when they were bombarding Jerusalem at night.

About that Duel in the beginning, that seemed so real! I felt that in any moment one of the actors might hit the other by mistake. I also noticed how 'wickedly' curved and pointed that saif was! It seems like an excellent slasher. I also noticed a very important thing, when that cavalier dismounted and started fighting balian on foot, before he started attacking, he had his forearm raised and his sword's spin over it, with the tip pointing down. Is that some sort of arabian swordsmanship?!

[nechesh]

Well, i certainly can't speak from any point of expertise, but it is my understanding that the makers went to great lengths to make the film as historically accurate as possible. While promoting the film at the Ritz Carlton in Pasadena recently they even put on a morning seminar on the Crusades presented by Donald Spoto (The Hidden Jesus; A New Life), Hamid Dabashi (Islamic history scholar and Prof. at Columbia University) and Nancy Caciola (Midieval history Prof. at the University of California). I assume these folks were also consultants on the film along with many others. In the end though, it is just a movie and sometimes exact accuracy must be sacrificed to move the plot along. Seems silly to argue though since it is obviously meant as a fictionalized account.

[tom hyle]

Haven't seen the movie; haven't seen the duel, but it sounds like a posture seen with both European and Japanese swordfighting; it wouldn't surprise me if it's seen in between; the sword hand on high, the blade tip facing forward and down with the main cutting edge facing forward and up; a position good for the deadly downward behind the shield thrust into the chest/throat (especially with a curved blade), and from which a cut can be deployed more quickly than from the high-and-back position that guards your sword (as seen in earlier medieval European art, for instance), and also allows/implies the protective use of the blade. The sheild, or lacking one, left arm, deployed for parries, grappling, etc..........On the other hand, it's fairly typical for newer "Hollywood" type movies that the martial arts are flavor of the month of what's on the N American scene, regardless of relevance to the historical milieu depicted; thus we've had the 3 musketeers using rapiers as if they were daito, and the opposite ridiculousness in old historical dramas with the sheild held to the rear, and sword in front; MacBeth using his spatha like a smallsword......sounds like this movie promulgates the ignorant popular idea of curved Islamic swords, and the glimpses of the commercials I've had may bear that out? Nice to hear it's not an antiMuslim hatefest, though.

[Rivkin]

Is that some sort of arabian swordsmanship?!

Sorry for interrupting, but I always thought that Salahadin's army was as unarabic as possible. Kurd commanding kipchaqs, circassians and some turks (after purging the army of africans).

It was also my understanding that the responsibility for training lied mostly on kipchaqs.

[M.carter]

Sorry for interrupting, but I always thought that Salahadin's army was as unarabic as possible. Kurd commanding kipchaqs, circassians and some turks (after purging the army of africans).

It was also my understanding that the responsibility for training lied mostly on kipchaqs.

Nope, the Ayyubid family was kurdish, but the ayyubid armies were mainly Syrian and egyptian garrisons, no kipchaqs. The Kipchaqs and circassians came much later, during the mamluk period.

[tom hyle]

Who has commentary to distinguish Kurdish weaponry from Arab at the time? (I have no idea; heck, I don't know anything constructive about modern Kurdish edged weapons :( )
Even if Rivkin is incorrect about the more Northern peoples, it's certainly possible the curved swords are ethnically correct for some portion of the army, nor would it surprise me if there were some sabre type swords all along, as there more or less were in Europe, but if they are depicted as the dominant type, that seems incorrect to me. What of jambiya and its curvature? Some old swords we've discussed recently have rather jamiyesque handles, but straight blades..........How old is the (Eastern?) Afrasian simply curved two-edged dagger/sword? I don't seem to recall it from "classical antiquity?" (among Afrasians around the Mediterranean, though curved double-edgers are occasionally seen out of BCE Europe, and mainly I don't know what with nonmediterranean Afrasians; the more southern protoBerbers; Africa remains a dark continent in the same sense as the premedieval period was Europe's dark age; it has been hidden from us....archaeology has been making inroads in both.....)........random thoughts; seeem relevant somehow.....

[Rivkin]

Nope, the Ayyubid family was kurdish, but the ayyubid armies were mainly Syrian and egyptian garrisons, no kipchaqs. The Kipchaqs and circassians came much later, during the mamluk period.

First of all I apologize if my statements are going to be incorrect, and I truly hope to be corrected.

My understanding was that Saladin died in 1193, and by 1250-1260 Ayyubids were mostly outed by rebelling mameluks (which does not seem to be much later than Salahadin's reign) - who formed the next dynasty, Bahri (which was a kipchaq dynasty). During the reign of Saladin he, and his commanders were very often of kurdish origin, but the army was already predominantly mamluk, the practise which started basically in 10th century with black mamluks (Nubians etc.). I think 1169, the battle of Cairo is considered the foundation of mameluks as a cast - the black mameluks were slaughtered by the order of Salahadin, and replaced by "white" mameluks - Kipchaqs from northern Caucasus and surrounding steppes, Circassians and other northern tribes. Since then, "blacks" were barred from being mameluks.

[M.carter]

First of all I apologize if my statements are going to be incorrect, and I truly hope to be corrected.

My understanding was that Saladin died in 1193, and by 1250-1260 Ayyubids were mostly outed by rebelling mameluks (which does not seem to be much later than Salahadin's reign) - who formed the next dynasty, Bahri (which was a kipchaq dynasty). During the reign of Saladin he, and his commanders were very often of kurdish origin, but the army was already predominantly mamluk, the practise which started basically in 10th century with black mamluks (Nubians etc.). I think 1169, the battle of Cairo is considered the foundation of mameluks as a cast - the black mameluks were slaughtered by the order of Salahadin, and replaced by "white" mameluks - Kipchaqs from northern Caucasus and surrounding steppes, Circassians and other northern tribes. Since then, "blacks" were barred from being mameluks.

In a translated Turkish book, edited by egyptian historians I have, Ive read that the purchase of mamluks didnt start by the Ayyubids until the reign of Al-Salih ibn Al-Kamil ibn Al-Adil ibn Salahuddin, Saladins great grandson, who widely introduced mamluks into military service and Khwarazmian cavalry after the defeat of the Khwarazmian Sultan by Gengiz Khan.

[Mark]

A few observations:

1) Saladin's helmet: Saladin was renouned and greatly respected for his humility and the simple life he lead. It therefore would be appropriate that his personal arms were simple and functional rather than austentatious.

2) Curved swords: in that period the swords used by the Muslim army were straight. Turkish curved swords came later (see below).

3) Mamluks: in Saladin's time the Muslim army was mainly composed of "Arabic" peoples, loosely defined -- Berbers, Arabs, probably Persians. The later Mamluks were Turkish slaves trained exclusively to fight, some say in emulation of the military monastic orders (never heard of the Nubian mamluks -- that is very interesting). Baibers, who finally drove the Europeans out of the Levant, was a Turk, but not a Kwarisman. The Kwarismanian turks were invited in to fight the Mongols, but got out of control and attacked Egypt and the Crusader states and were with difficulty defeated.

Errors and omissions are categorically denied, and if pointed out will be re-written to conform to the most recent with currrent official history, which itself will be rewritten or simply expunged to the extent that it varies from the canon noted above. Oink. :D

[M.carter]

A few observations:

1) Saladin's helmet: Saladin was renouned and greatly respected for his humility and the simple life he lead. It therefore would be appropriate that his personal arms were simple and functional rather than austentatious.

2) Curved swords: in that period the swords used by the Muslim army were straight. Turkish curved swords came later (see below).

3) Mamluks: in Saladin's time the Muslim army was mainly composed of "Arabic" peoples, loosely defined -- Berbers, Arabs, probably Persians. The later Mamluks were Turkish slaves trained exclusively to fight, some say in emulation of the military monastic orders (never heard of the Nubian mamluks -- that is very interesting). Baibers, who finally drove the Europeans out of the Levant, was a Turk, but not a Kwarisman. The Kwarismanian turks were invited in to fight the Mongols, but got out of control and attacked Egypt and the Crusader states and were with difficulty defeated.

Errors and omissions are categorically denied, and if pointed out will be re-written to conform to the most recent with currrent official history, which itself will be rewritten or simply expunged to the extent that it varies from the canon noted above. Oink. :D

1. Humility?? I dont get it, what do you mean Mark?

2. Thats exactly what I was talking about on SFI, if you have the book "Islamic Swords and swordsmiths" see portraits 80,81,82,83. These are the swords of that time in Syria, but if you look closely at the swords in the movie (I watched it three times now :D ) some swords are straight, and some are curved sabers. Perhaps Ridley or his historical dept. wanted to show the transition from straight to curved swords during that period?? Anyway, I believe the swords in the movie were fine, at least none of those Sinbad scimitars!

3. You are absolutely correct, same thing in my book, during Baibar's time, the Khwarazmians he invited to stay in cairo and syria got out of control and started pillaging and burning the countryside, thus he had to send his personal Mamluk guards to stop the rebellion, they cut noses, tongues, ears and popped the eyes of the Khwarazmians to scare them into submission. I also never heard of Nubian Mamluks myself. The only Mamluks I heard of were Kipchaq Turks and then replaced by Circassians.

[Mark]

1. Humility?? I dont get it, what do you mean Mark?

I meant that Saladin was respected not only because he kicked infidel butt, but also because he lead a simple life and did not create a cult of personality around himself as so many powerful rulers did (and still do). No harem, no huge ornate palace, no wild parties, no booze. I remember reading somewhere that he drank only water, and slept on a small cot or mat. Whether it was a put-on or not, it gave him a more spiritual air that was welcomed after the debauchery so common among the Egyptian (and probably other) Sultans. Hence he was seen not only as the restorer of Muslim power in the area, but of Islamic faith and culture in general.

[M.carter]

I meant that Saladin was respected not only because he kicked infidel butt, but also because he lead a simple life and did not create a cult of personality around himself as so many powerful rulers did (and still do). No harem, no huge ornate palace, no wild parties, no booze. I remember reading somewhere that he drank only water, and slept on a small cot or mat. Whether it was a put-on or not, it gave him a more spiritual air that was welcomed after the debauchery so common among the Egyptian (and probably other) Sultans. Hence he was seen not only as the restorer of Muslim power in the area, but of Islamic faith and culture in general.

Well yeah, he has no palaces in either Syria or Egyot that are attributed to him. Only a fortress in Northern Syria, and one in Egypt.

[Aqtai]

I've just seen Kingdom of Heaven as well. I enjoyed it. I agree there were errors, but I give Ridley Scott points for trying to be more accurate than his predecessors.

My understanding of Salahuddin's Armies is that the core would have been a mixture of Kurds, Turkish mamluks, Turcoman tribesmen, professional Turkish soldiers and Bedouin tribesmen. Something that didn't really come across in the film, where the 'Saracens' were represented as a fairly homogenous mass. However I feel that trying to explain the ethnic complexity of a Medieval Muslim Army to a modern multiplex audience would have been an instant 'turn-off'.

With regards to the use of Arabic by Salaheddin and his commanders, I believe that Salaheddin was a multilingual man: he would have spoken in Kurdish to his Kurdish troops, Turkish to his Turkish Emirs and Arabic to his Arab Imams and civil servants (who would have all been Syrian and Egyptian). But since the film was made in Arab country i think that is why he had to show Salaheddin speaking Arabic. To have him him speaking in Turkish or Kurdish, while more accurate, would have probably lead to effigies of Ridley Scott being burned on the streets of Cairo and Baghdad!

As for the armour and weapons, while some of it is anachronistic (the mail and plate armour worn by Alexander Siddiq looks 15th century rather than 12th) I give him credit for at least including genuine Islamic armour. In addition there is very little Islamic armour surviving from the 12th century anyway, so RS is entitled some artistic license. I also give him credit for having some of the Muslims wearing lamellar armour.

Overall I liked this film, it tried to stick to the main historical facts, although it did take liberties with the details, but that is unavoidable in a film.

[Rick]

I just got back from viewing this film and the details that we notice will , of course go unnoticed by the uniniated .
I thought it was a terriffic film on the whole and despite the overabundance of Orlando Bloom these days , he did a workmanlike job in his role .

I thought the subject matter was handled quite well and equably ; I find Scott's films to be among the best cinematic offerings around these days .

I actually left the theater tired out by being swept up in the experience .

Can't wait for the DVD < rubs hands in anticipation > :D

[M.carter]

I've just seen Kingdom of Heaven as well. I enjoyed it. I agree there were errors, but I give Ridley Scott points for trying to be more accurate than his predecessors.

My understanding of Salahuddin's Armies is that the core would have been a mixture of Kurds, Turkish mamluks, Turcoman tribesmen, professional Turkish soldiers and Bedouin tribesmen. Something that didn't really come across in the film, where the 'Saracens' were represented as a fairly homogenous mass. However I feel that trying to explain the ethnic complexity of a Medieval Muslim Army to a modern multiplex audience would have been an instant 'turn-off'.

With regards to the use of Arabic by Salaheddin and his commanders, I believe that Salaheddin was a multilingual man: he would have spoken in Kurdish to his Kurdish troops, Turkish to his Turkish Emirs and Arabic to his Arab Imams and civil servants (who would have all been Syrian and Egyptian). But since the film was made in Arab country i think that is why he had to show Salaheddin speaking Arabic. To have him him speaking in Turkish or Kurdish, while more accurate, would have probably lead to effigies of Ridley Scott being burned on the streets of Cairo and Baghdad!

As for the armour and weapons, while some of it is anachronistic (the mail and plate armour worn by Alexander Siddiq looks 15th century rather than 12th) I give him credit for at least including genuine Islamic armour. In addition there is very little Islamic armour surviving from the 12th century anyway, so RS is entitled some artistic license. I also give him credit for having some of the Muslims wearing lamellar armour.

Overall I liked this film, it tried to stick to the main historical facts, although it did take liberties with the details, but that is unavoidable in a film.

I do not think that Saladin could speak Kurdish (although he was a kurd). His father died when he was in an early age, and he was sent from childhood to a Sunni Islamic religious school in Damascus. He lived all his life in Damascus, and died there. When I visited his tomb, I got goosebumps all along my spine, with a tingling feeling (unexplainable). He probably knew arabic and a little turkish (as turkish troops were gaining more attention rapidly in the region).

[M.carter]

I just got back from viewing this film and the details that we notice will , of course go unnoticed by the uniniated .
I thought it was a terriffic film on the whole and despite the overabundance of Orlando Bloom these days , he did a workmanlike job in his role .

I thought the subject matter was handled quite well and equably ; I find Scott's films to be among the best cinematic offerings around these days .

I actually left the theater tired out by being swept up in the experience .

Can't wait for the DVD < rubs hands in anticipation > :D

Actually, they say that the DVD will be 195 minutes long. Thats 50 minutes extra! I also had a feeling that there would be an extended DVD version since I got out of the cinema, because in the trailer, there were many scenes that werent shown in the movie.

[Rick]

Fifty more minutes ?!
Oboy !
< Rubs hands even harder>

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the first DVD of this film released will not be the extended version . :rolleyes:

I have been fooled a couple of times by this Hollywood distribution trick . :mad:

[M.carter]

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the first DVD of this film released will not be the extended version . :rolleyes:


As usual :mad:

[Aqtai]

I do not think that Saladin could speak Kurdish (although he was a kurd). His father died when he was in an early age, and he was sent from childhood to a Sunni Islamic religious school in Damascus. He lived all his life in Damascus, and died there. When I visited his tomb, I got goosebumps all along my spine, with a tingling feeling (unexplainable). He probably knew arabic and a little turkish (as turkish troops were gaining more attention rapidly in the region).

While it has been a long time since I read 'Saladin in His Time' by P.H. Newby, note to self, must re-read it :), i'm pretty sure Salaheddin was in his 20ies when his father died. Add to that he was from a large and clannish family, when his uncle Assad-ed-din Shirkuh was sent to Egypt by Nur-ed-din Mahmud the Emir of Damascus, Salaheddin accompanied him. I'm pretty sure he spoke to his uncle in Kurdish. he also had his brother and Nephews all appointed to prominant positions.

I agree with you about the Turkish though, Nur-ed-din Mahmud, Salaheddin's original sovereign and mentor was himself a Turk and most of the emirs in his armies and Saladin's own armies would have been Turks. I think knowing Turkish would have essential for a 12th century Muslim military commander.

[Rick]

You know you spoke of the feeling you got at Saladin's tomb .
Although I have never been to the Middle East . I have felt that same thing at St. Basil's in Moscow for some reason .

Gettysburg battlefield is like walking into a Van de Graff generator .
Even though we were not there when history was made the energy still lingers ,for me, in a palpable way .

[Rivkin]

Unfortunately, I can't find my books (so I have to apologize for not oftering references _yet_), so I have to rely on memory and Britannica:

Salahadin (himself a kurd) was from the family of atabegs - Turk-seljuk warlords, who were supposedly "protecting" Baghdad Caliphat. With time this family and its seljuk's was becoming more and more powerful.

In 1169 Salahadin marched into Cairo, slaughtered around 40,000 black mamluks (Nubians etc.), their families, disbanded other parts of Cairo garrison and replaced it with his seljuks.

Concerning Salahadin's "white" mamluks he was the first one to introduce them into Egypt. Till that time only seljuks used to purchase slave boys from Caucasus and Kipchak territories (eventually stretching from Khorezm to Hungary), and put them into service as "guard" units. With Salahadin this practise was greatly expanded, mostly through buying kipchaks from Cuman Kipchak regions (Modern Crimea and Ukraine) and northern caucasus kipchaks.

Concerning the languages he spoke - it's certain he did speak arabic, I did not see the movie, but it seems natural for him to use arabic as a diplomatic language.

Now concerning languages that were used by mamluks among themselves in general it was always their own language - turks spoke turkish dialects (kipchak), mongols I think spoke kipchak too,
georgians spoke kartli, adighas- adighe, other caucasians (armenians, chechens etc.) spoke usually adighe or kartli, depending on which one was dominant.

Concerning that only kipchaks and circassians were mamluks - Ali-Bey, Mehmed Beg and most of post XVII century mamluks were georgians (megrel tribe, western georgia), some of prominent mamluk leaders before were Mongol or Seljuk. It's important that in arabic literature word "cherkes" can mean anything from around Caucasus.

It's interesting that mamluks were so isolated in their national community that very often they did not develop any islamic identity (great example is Rustam's memoirs and to some extent famous correspendence of XIX century mamluks with russian tzar and georgian kings).

[rahman]

Empu Gandreng tempering (nyepuhan) with his lips on the red hot blade for the infamous keris of Ken Aroek. Sorry guys, can't show you Empu Nyi sombro doing nyepuhan with her lips. I'll get banned from this forum! :D
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albun11/PDVD_019.sized.jpg

STOP! STOP! Can someone please tell this Malay prince that a keris is NOT a stabbing weapon but a holy talisman?
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/albun11/PDVD_062.sized.jpg

These are screenshots of some of the best Malay movies produced in Singapore in the 1960s. You can see the keris in its (Malay) cultural context. Check out others at www.kampungnet.com.sg (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg)

More to come...

[nechesh]

Thanks for the pics Rahman. Interesting the completely wrong (to my understanding at least) grip and thrust used in the second pic. Feel free to send me that pic of empu Sombro in a private e-mail. ;)

[rahman]

No, there was no pic... just pulling your 'leg' :D

That grip in the second pic is not unusual, but you can also see the normal grip in other pics in our gallery.

The interesting thing is, I've been playing with the Jogja and Solo keris and I can easily pivot the hilt from a normal to a reverse grip as in the photo. But I can never do that with a Malay hilt. Guess there's still a lot more to learn... :)

[Rivkin]

On mamluks:
Here is the article of Bernard Lewis (very distinguished western scholar of Islam):
http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/Slavery_in_the_Middle_East.html

See Chapter 9 for mamluks. Some quotes:
"Ahmad b. Tulun (d. 884), the first independent ruler of Muslim Egypt, relied very heavily on black slaves, probably Nubians, for his armed forces; at his death he is said to have left, among other possessions, twenty-four thousand white mamluks and forty-five thousand blacks."

"In 1169 Saladin learned of a plot by the caliph's chief black eunuch to remove him, allegedly in collusion with the Crusaders in Palestine. Saladin acted swiftly; the offender was seized and decapitated and replaced in his office by a white eunuch. The other black eunuchs of the caliph's palace were also dismissed. The black troops in Cairo were infuriated by this summary execution of one whom they regarded as their spokesman and defender. Moved, according to a chronicler, by "racial solidarity" (jinsiyya), they prepared for battle. In two hot August days, an estimated fifty thousand blacks fought against Saladin's army in the area between the two palaces, of the caliph and the vizier."

P.S. I really doubt that there were any significant numbers of arabs in Salahadin's forces.

[M.carter]

P.S. I really doubt that there were any significant numbers of arabs in Salahadin's forces.

But most of Saladins armies came from Cairo and Damascus, and Turkish troops werent that common in Saladins time. The only mamluks in Saladins army were his personal bodyguards. The rest of the army mainly came from barracks in Damascus, Aleppo and Cairo, all arab cities.

[Rivkin]

But most of Saladins armies came from Cairo and Damascus, and Turkish troops werent that common in Saladins time. The only mamluks in Saladins army were his personal bodyguards. The rest of the army mainly came from barracks in Damascus, Aleppo and Cairo, all arab cities.

Arab cities does not mean arab armies (the cities always remained arab, even under mamluk sultanate).

Most of the western sources seem to refer to him as "seljuk" leader, de-facto conquering Egypt from local rulers. While there can be some misunderstanding of this on my part, and to be honest - I've never seen an exact and detailed description of Salahadin's army (and among people I asked - no one seems to be able to quote one), so I personally believe that one should rely on indirect things, like the quote above - 50,000 Nubian slave (mamluk) soldiers of Cairo garrison seem to contradict "The only mamluks in Saladins army were his personal bodyguards. The rest of the army mainly came from barracks in Damascus, Aleppo and Cairo, all arab cities".

[M.carter]

Arab cities does not mean arab armies (the cities always remained arab, even under mamluk sultanate).

Most of the western sources seem to refer to him as "seljuk" leader, de-facto conquering Egypt from local rulers. While there can be some misunderstanding of this on my part, and to be honest - I've never seen an exact and detailed description of Salahadin's army (and among people I asked - no one seems to be able to quote one), so I personally believe that one should rely on indirect things, like the quote above - 50,000 Nubian slave (mamluk) soldiers of Cairo garrison seem to contradict "The only mamluks in Saladins army were his personal bodyguards. The rest of the army mainly came from barracks in Damascus, Aleppo and Cairo, all arab cities".

Nowhere have I read that the Seljuks were ever the de-facto rulers of those cities, they were only the De-facto rulers of Baghdad. The Nubian slave guards were not called mamluks. These were simply called guards, mainly used for garrisons and were mostly infantry, the real mamluks were the turkish slave horsemen. There is an excellent book entitled "Mamluks" by Al-Baz Al Areeni, I believe translated into arabic from turkish, contains info from more that 20 arab sources (even primary) and more than 30 european sources. It contains info from the beginning of the mamluks, until their end in 1517, covers everything, from daily life, to food, to the barracks they lived in, to the time when the mamluks graduate from the tibaq as professional 'fursan'. No where does he include nubian guards as mamluks, yes they are mentioned, and mentioned alot, along with khwarazmians, but not as mamluks.

[Aqtai]

But most of Saladins armies came from Cairo and Damascus, and Turkish troops werent that common in Saladins time. The only mamluks in Saladins army were his personal bodyguards. The rest of the army mainly came from barracks in Damascus, Aleppo and Cairo, all arab cities.

Many Islamic states used slave warriors or mamluks from very early on. The 'Abbassid Khalifas were using Turkish mamluks in the 9th century, Ahmad ibn Tulun was himself the son of a Turkish mamluk. Nur-ed-din Mahmud's father Emad-ed-din zenki was originally a mamluk in the Seljuq army. However these mamluks were usually relatively few in number and acted as a body guard to the ruler. The exception was the Fatimids who had large numbers of Nubian slave infantrymen and the later Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt. Salaheddin had a bodyguard of several hundred mamluks called the halaqa, i.e. ring.

The rest of Salaheddin's army was a mixture. he disbanded most of the old Fatimid army after he seized power in Egypt because their loyalty to him was suspect. His light cavalry would have been made of up Turcoman horse-archers who had settled in Syria and Northern Iraq. His heavy cavalry was made up of Kurds, free Turks who had settled in the cities of syria and Northern Iraq for one or two generations, sons of mamluks and a small number of Arabs from the bedouin tribes of Syria, Palestine and Egypt. he would have had some Arab heavy infantry from the Syrian cities as well as bedouin infantry.

With regards to weapons, both straight swords and curved sabres were used. The Arabs and Kurds fought in the traditional way with sword and lance, they used straight swords. Troops of Turkish origin prefered curved sabres. there is a straight sword in the Topqapi Museum in Istanbul which is attributed to Salaheddin Yusef ibn Ayyub. The Topqapi Museum also has several Mamluk swords from the 14th and 15th centuries which are also straight. Arab miniature paintings and Coptic bibles from the 12th and 13th centuries invariably show straight swords with downcurved quillons and spherical pommels.

The film interestingly shows Salaheddin using a sword with a divided point. One of the Prophet's Muhammad's swords was also said to have had a bifurcated point. Salaheddin was undoubtedly a very pious Muslim (of the old-fashioned tolerant kind, not like a modern wahabi), but I have no idea if he would have gone as far as using a sword modelled on the Prophet's. Finally Salaheddin is often described as wearing a mail-lined kazaghand and a mail coif over which he wore a yellow skullcap and a white head cloth. But he may have worn more elaborate armour on certain occasions.

[M.carter]

With regards to weapons, both straight swords and curved sabres were used. The Arabs and Kurds fought in the traditional way with sword and lance, they used straight swords. Troops of Turkish origin prefered curved sabres. there is a straight sword in the Topqapi Museum in Istanbul which is attributed to Salaheddin Yusef ibn Ayyub. The Topqapi Museum also has several Mamluk swords from the 14th and 15th centuries which are also straight. Arab miniature paintings and Coptic bibles from the 12th and 13th centuries invariably show straight swords with downcurved quillons and spherical pommels.



Saladins sword! Ive never heard of such thing, in Dr.Uncal Yuncel's book, there is a sword in Topkapi attributed to Najmadeen Ayyub, Saladins father, but he clearly states that there is no sword attributed to saladin is in the sarai.

In this pic, posted I believe by eftihis some months ago, the middle saber is typical turkish, while the rest of the swords are arab syrian.

[Aqtai]

I stand corrected. please excuse my rusty memory. In my defense I will say that it has been a long time since I read up on this stuff! I also don't have Dr Yuncel's book. :)

[Aqtai]

In his 'Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era, 1050-1350: Islam, Eastern Europe and Asia Vol 2', David Nicolle refers to a sword from the Army Museum in Istanbul which is attributed to Salaheddin. Nicolle himself however has doubts about this saying he believes it is actually 13th or 14th century. It is a straight sword by the way.

I knew I had read something somewhere about a 'Sword of Saladin' in Istanbul! :D

BTW I don't really recommend the book, it was a disappointment. No photos at all, just line drawings.

[ariel]

I just saw Kingdom of Heaven together with a friend of mine who is a maven of all things European medieval (clothings, material artefacts etc).
He loved this movie because the Crusader stuff looked quite authentic.
I found the swords being more or less in accord with what I know about Islamic armies of the time.
Otherwise, this movie is a pure and unadulterated junk. There is no plausible story that binds the plot together (there is no plot as such ...), the characters are unexplainable and do not develop at all and the entire 2 h 25 min enterprise plods thru with as much excitement as one can get driving slowly over a speed bump.
If you, guys, want to see a lot of Islamic-looking weapon props, - plunk $8.50 and buy a ticket.
If you are expecting a semblance of an intelligent and fascinating story of the Crusade era, rent yourself "Robin Hood" ( either the Kevin Costner's one or the cartoon version from Disney). Compared to the Kingdom of Heaven, these two are truly Shakesperean.....

[Aqtai]

I just saw Kingdom of Heaven together with a friend of mine who is a maven of all things European medieval (clothings, material artefacts etc).
He loved this movie because the Crusader stuff looked quite authentic.
I found the swords being more or less in accord with what I know about Islamic armies of the time.
Otherwise, this movie is a pure and unadulterated junk. There is no plausible story that binds the plot together (there is no plot as such ...), the characters are unexplainable and do not develop at all and the entire 2 h 25 min enterprise plods thru with as much excitement as one can get driving slowly over a speed bump.
If you, guys, want to see a lot of Islamic-looking weapon props, - plunk $8.50 and buy a ticket.
If you are expecting a semblance of an intelligent and fascinating story of the Crusade era, rent yourself "Robin Hood" ( either the Kevin Costner's one or the cartoon version from Disney). Compared to the Kingdom of Heaven, these two are truly Shakesperean.....


Ooh, thats a bit harsh.

Mind you, I've had few weeks to think think things over and look some things up, mainly in 'Saladin in his Time' by PH Newby and Hattin 1187 by david Nicolle, the only 2 books I have to hand at the moment.

Ridley Scott has taken bigger liberties with history than I thought. Salaheddin's Army at Hattin and Jerusalem was about 45,000 men, not 200,000. For some reason Count Raymond of Tripoli has become 'Tiberias' in the film (although he did have a castle at lake Tiberias), and Balian of Ibelin, who was a real person BTW, was at the battle of Hattin and was captured by Salaheddin. he was released after promising never to take up arms against Salaheddin again. A promise he broke by commanding the defenders at Jerusalem.

The other thing that irritated me is that Salaheddin's generals don't have names, you just have 'the hardliner' acted by Khaled En-Nabawy and 'the moderate' acted by Alexander Siddiq. I think these are meant to represent Salaheddin's 2 main commanders at Hattin. His nephew Taqi-ed-Din and Muzaffar-ed-Din Goqbori. The scenes showing Muslims praying are also wrong as they are all spaced out. Finally when Salaheddin is reciting the 'Fatiha' over the Muslim dead, it was edited in a way that most pious muslims would find rather blasphmemous.

Saying all that, I still liked this film. :D

[M.carter]

Ooh, thats a bit harsh.

Mind you, I've had few weeks to think think things over and look some things up, mainly in 'Saladin in his Time' by PH Newby and Hattin 1187 by david Nicolle, the only 2 books I have to hand at the moment.

Ridley Scott has taken bigger liberties with history than I thought. Salaheddin's Army at Hattin and Jerusalem was about45,000 men, not 200,000. For some reason Count Raymond of Tripoli has become 'Tiberias' in the film (although he did have a castle at lake Tiberias), and Balian of Ibelin, who was a real person BTW, was at the battle of Hattin and was captured by Salaheddin. he was released after promising never to take up arms against Salaheddin again. A promise he broke by commanding the defenders at Jerusalem.



Yeah, the army was probably no more than 45,000 men. Some sources say that balian was captured and released on the condition of never carrying arms against muslims again, but when he reached Jerusalem, the people begged him to defend them, and he wrote to saladin about that, and to Saladins chivalry, he allowed him to break his promise. Other sources say that he escaped from the field (fled in reality :D ) and ran away to Jerusalem.

But then, this movie isnt supposed to be a documentary, just a good movie.

[Rick]

" But then, this movie isnt supposed to be a documentary, just a good movie. "

And Scott makes some of the best Eye Candy ; The Duellists is like a animated oil painting .

[Aqtai]

Yeah, the army was probably no more than 45,000 men. Some sources say that balian was captured and released on the condition of never carrying arms against muslims again, but when he reached Jerusalem, the people begged him to defend them, and he wrote to saladin about that, and to Saladins chivalry, he allowed him to break his promise. Other sources say that he escaped from the field (fled in reality :D ) and ran away to Jerusalem.

But then, this movie isnt supposed to be a documentary, just a good movie.

david Nicolle was bit confusing. he mentioned at one point that Balian was captured and at another that he managed to escape near the end of the battle, without ever mentioning that there were two versions. I need the rest of my books!

Nicolle did say that Balian was absolved of his oath to Salaheddin by the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Although, to be fair to Scott, he did portray the patriarch as a treacherous b*st*rd.

Going back to the subject of weapons and armour for a bit, I've just remembered that the film showed some knights wearing closed helms (The scene when they try to kill Balian at his estate). I was wondering, considering that this film takes place around the year 1187, what is the earliest that great helms show up in European art?

[nechesh]

Well, everyone's a critic. aren't they? :)
Really though, when i read a history book i expect accurate history, when i go to the movies i hope for good cinema. This movie has some brillant cinematography, fairly good acting and sticks to a general outline of history that in many ways is fairly accurate. No, Balian and Sybilla do not run off together in real history, but where's your sense of romance , man! :) In fact, she pretty much conspired with Guy all the way through the true history, convincing her brother Baldwin IV to step down and allow her son by a previous marriage to become Baldwin V with Guy as his Regent. Others conspired for the throne as well, including her half-sister whose name escapes me. So many characters and a king are left out. The character of Raynald is fairly accurate and AFAIK he was indeed executed as he was in that scene where he drinks from the goblet. It is also my understanding that Balian WAS instrumental in negotiating the surrender and safe passage for those in Jerusalem (though he was no bastard blacksmith and apparently was always aware of his nobility). But the bottom line is that real history is just too complex to put down in a 2 1/2 hr. film in any cohesive manner that has any kind of dramatic flow and sense. No, this is not history, it's Hollywood. But more than that, it is also a film that has taken an age old sensless struggle for control of the holy land and created a message for OUR time that is both moving and perhaps even essential to our survival in the decade to come. As the film points out, this stuggle has raged off and on for a millineum. Isn't time it came to an end? That's a message i can tolerate a little fudged and finaggled history over. Especially when it looks so visually appealling. :)
And Rick, ditto on the Duelist. :cool:

[Aqtai]

Since this thread is about edged weapons in films, I think I had better stick in here some pics of Islamic swords. The first is (Allegedly) the Sword of Negm-ed-Din Ayyub, the father of Sultan El-Malik En-Nasser Salah-ed-Din Yusuf (i.e. Saladin). If it is we have a 12th century Islamic sword of the type which the 'Saracens' in Kingdom of Heaven should have been using. The second sword is 13th-14th century but very Similar to Ayyub's sword.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/ISAS_pl.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/80_ISAS_pl.jpg

[M.carter]

Yes! thats the one. Thats the sword I was talking about. Saladin's father's Sword. The Syrian mamluk sword you posted is what probably most of the Ayyubid troops carried. There three others in the book too. I do not understand why on the earth these swords in the the Askeri museum, along with several arab sabk jambiyas are listed as "Turkish"

[Aqtai]

Yes! thats the one. Thats the sword I was talking about. Saladin's father's Sword. The Syrian mamluk sword you posted is what probably most of the Ayyubid troops carried. There three others in the book too. I do not understand why on the earth these swords in the the Askeri museum, along with several arab sabk jambiyas are listed as "Turkish"

I have no idea why they are listed as Turkish, but i suppose it is because the book does mention that they are 'unusual' and their hilts are very different to other Mamluk sword hilts. But it is equally possible that 13th-14th century Mamluk swords had a different style of hilt to 15th-16th century swords.

What puzzles me a bit is why Negm-ed-Din Ayyub's sword should look like a 14th century sword. I suppose one reason could be that styles of weapons and armour changed more slowly in the Islamic world. early 16th century Kilijs and Kulah Khuds look very similar to early 19th century examples for instance.

Unfortunately I have never seen the original sword and the inscription in the photo is illegible, but another possible explanation also springs to my mind. The penultimate Ayyubid sultan of Egypt was also called Negm-ed-Din Ayyub. He reigned from from 1240 to 1249 and died during the battle of Mansurah. I can't help but wonder if this sword belonged to the second Negm-ed-Din Ayyub. A more prosaic explanation could just be that the sword did belong to the 1st Negm-ed-Din, but was given a new hilt around 1300 AD.


On the subject of Edged weapons in the movies, here is a Islamic Axe from KoH:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/therionarms_c650.jpg

And here is a late 15th century Mamluk axe:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/MamlukAxe1495-98.jpg

Full credit to Ridley Scott for such an accurate replica of a real Islamic axe, its just a pity he got the time wrong by about 3 centuries... :D

[M.carter]

david Nicolle was bit confusing. he mentioned at one point that Balian was captured and at another that he managed to escape near the end of the battle, without ever mentioning that there were two versions. I need the rest of my books!

Nicolle did say that Balian was absolved of his oath to Salaheddin by the Patriarch of Jerusalem. Although, to be fair to Scott, he did portray the patriarch as a treacherous b*st*rd.

Going back to the subject of weapons and armour for a bit, I've just remembered that the film showed some knights wearing closed helms (The scene when they try to kill Balian at his estate). I was wondering, considering that this film takes place around the year 1187, what is the earliest that great helms show up in European art?

Im not quoting about David Nicolle's book, I dont even own that :D . Im talking about articles Ive read on the internet and in some old magazines I got my hands on. I read both versions of the story repeatedly.

[Rivkin]

Here are two (unfortunately somewhat overly nationalistic in message) video clips with lots of weaponry (supposedly georgian weapons)
http://www.hangebi.com/hangebi/kviclo.zip
and
http://www.hangebi.com/hangebi/rivergeo.zip

I had a lot of fun watching them.

[Bill]

a couple for those that are interested in Indonesia/Philippines. 1. Ring of Fire, an Indonesian Odyssey; www.mysticfire.com - You can buy all 5 films on a 2 dvd set, Nechesh will enjoy this if he hasn't already seen it. About the Blair brothers adventures through the Islands in the 70's, excellent. 2. Imelda, Power. Myth. Illusion. by Ramona S. Diaz. best documentry I have ever seen. Certainly not pro Imelda, but if you love her or hate her, you will enjoy this on many levels, & I do mean many levels. Only a born & raised Filipino can start to understand the PI, but this will give you a glimpse of some of the complexities, + it goes in & out of bizarro world. has a 90 second clip of the assassination attempt with a bolo, that almost killed her.

[nechesh]

Thanks Bill, I have seen some of this series, but not all of the films. Thanks for the reminder, i must add it to my Kerismas list. :D

[M.carter]

Hi,

I would like to revive this thread to ask a question, does anyone know when the Kingdom of Heaven DVD is gonna be released? Ive been hearing september, can someone here officially confirm this?

[wolviex]

other rumors claimed 11 october

http://videoeta.com/movie.html?via=form&id=62561

[Rick]

I have no information about this but I think you guys are overly optimistic .
I'm figuring it for the Holiday season Nov.-Dec. :D

[Aurangzeb]

Hello All!

When I saw the movie 'Sahara' I was shocked to see a Yemeni Jambiya wielded by one of the arabs. The dagger was a almost exact twin to my jambiya even down to approx. length and hilt materials and shape including the orange color hilt with two silver studs!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=560&highlight=jambiya

Mark...

[Spunjer]

...just got done watching "Ong Bak Thai Warrior" and had some dhas on the side...

[Aurangzeb]

Hello All!

Another great movie is 'Khartoum', it is about the Mahdist revolt at the end of the 19th. century. There are a lot of kaskaras. Even a scene with a few koummyas and one Yemeni Jambiya. One of the best movies I have seen.

Mark...

[nechesh]

other rumors claimed 11 october

http://videoeta.com/movie.html?via=form&id=62561


It would seem Wolviex's rumor was right on target. Kingdom of Heaven will be released on DVD October 11th. :)

[Tim Simmons]

The four feathers, followed by the array of SE Asian weapons at Kurtz's camp in "Apocalypse Now" especially the Philippine spear that gets the black chap in charge of the boat. Tim

[Renegade Conquistador]

Well, i think it's time to start transferring some favorite and on going threads to the new system. Here's the old thread for reference: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002285-2.html
One of our Filippino friends mentioned that he would like to see a rousing epic of the Moros battle with the Spanish. I must agree that this would make a great film, given the right script and direction.

Indeed, the fierce struggle between the Spanish general Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera (with his combined force of Spanish regulars and Visayan mercs), and the Moros under Sultan Kudarat, could make a great story.

[Spunjer]

now, THAT would be epic...

[Battara]

Spunjer I agree, and it would be legendary too. :D

[Rick]

Ahhh , if wishes were fishes ......... <sigh> :o

I'm still waiting for the Hollywood clowns to release Farewell To The King on DVD . :mad:

[nechesh]

Well Rick, if only you were a Brit. Seems Farwell to the King is available in PAL format DVD. There is a claim at this amazon link that the U.S. version will be available soon, but there must be some error because they claim the date will be sometime in 1969, 20 yrs. before the movie was even made. :confused:

Sorry, that link didn't seem to work so i took it out. Just go to amazon.com and go to the DVD section and enter the title. :)

[Rick]

For them to mess with the head of a Woodstock attendee ...... :eek:

Or is it still 1969 ???? :confused: :D

Musta been that brown acid . ;)

[zamboanga]

just for fun. :) :)

[nechesh]

just for fun. :) :)

Well, maybe that would have made it a better movie! :D

[Renegade Conquistador]

just for fun. :) :)

LOL--nice photoshop.

BTW, is your avatar a model of a karakoa?

[Mark]

For them to mess with the head of a Woodstock attendee ...... :eek:

Or is it still 1969 ???? :confused: :D

Musta been that brown acid . ;)

You should have listened to Chip Monk. :D

[Rick]

Wavy Gravy man . ;)
Uh oh , I'm waaay off topic here .
Please s'cuse . :o

[Brucetroy]

OK, i HIGHLY recommend you all go see the new Ridley Scott film "Kingdom of Heaven". The repros in it are absolutely amazing, especially some of the Muslim armor. Beautiful swords, great battle scenes, but ultimately a film more about peace than war. The acting is great, the cinematography sumptuous and Oscar-worthy. Actually worth the $8.50 and a must-see on the big screen. :)
I agree .I loved Kingdom of heaven.
How acurate was it historically and what years did the events supposedly cover ?
Thanks for a reply .
Cheers
Bruce

[nechesh]

Hi Brucetroy. You probably responded to my post before moving on through the thread, but i think you will find the answers to you questions in the discussion that followed. :)

[Spunjer]

add to the list, Bang-Rajan, an epic thai movie depicting the legendary villge of bang-rajan during the siam burmese war... lots and lots of sword fights and dhas...

[nechesh]

Funny you should pull this thread back up Spunjer because i was about to do it myself.
I will admit to knowing little to nothing about Chinese weapons so i cannot attest to the accuracy of what is depicted, but i just watched House of Flying Daggers from the same folks who brought us Hero and it is just fantastic. Beautiful, poetic and tragic with a whole lotta cold steel. :)

[Spunjer]

nechesh,

hero's a classic! haven't seen house of flying dagger yet, tho...

[Andrew]

Hero was outstanding. A beautiful film. :)

[Aqtai]

Has anyone seen Asif Kapadia's The Warrior?

It was on telly in the UK last week,I videotaped it, but haven't got around to watching it yet. Was it any good?

More info about the film: http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0295682/

[MABAGANI]

add to the list, Bang-Rajan, an epic thai movie depicting the legendary villge of bang-rajan during the siam burmese war... lots and lots of sword fights and dhas...

Good film, questions for dha collectors, did it look like the blades were intentionally made over sized for screen effect? are they often found in matching pairs? ever try to test throw them like javelin, as seen in the movie?

[MABAGANI]

on the dvd of the movie "kingdom of heaven" there is a version you can watch with historical references...
interesting info on muslim and crusader swordsmiths about thrusting the heated blade through flesh or animal skins and then cold water...

[Rick]

on the dvd of the movie "kingdom of heaven" there is a version you can watch with historical references...
interesting info on muslim and crusader swordsmiths about thrusting the heated blade through flesh or animal skins and then cold water...

Hi Mabagani , is that in the new director's cut 4 disc set ?
I haven't finished exploring the whole thing yet .
At least with the uncut version the movie finally makes sense . :rolleyes:

I was watching The Man Who Would Be King last night ; what a fine movie that is !

[MABAGANI]

Hi Mabagani , is that in the new director's cut 4 disc set ?
I haven't finished exploring the whole thing yet .
At least with the uncut version the movie finally makes sense . :rolleyes:

I was watching The Man Who Would Be King last night ; what a fine movie that is !

that was in a 2 disc set, but probably in the directors cut...i'll have to watch the uncut version now too
i only caught the beginning with historical subtitles, nice extra feature

[Rick]

The Director's cut is a whole different movie ; about an hour of very important (to the story) material was left on the editing room floor .

This new version is how Scott wanted us to see the film .

I feel stupid saying this but I never really checked the second disc in the first DVD release . :o

[MABAGANI]

i usually load all discs before watching, not sure if that helps catch all the extras on the menu, i think the multi disc thing is a gimic...sure they can cram everything in multi dimensionally on a single dvd? lolz

[nechesh]

Well that's awesome news Rick, considering that i am a big fan of the original release i am sure i will love this. Glad i didn't run out and buy the first issue. It can be remarkable how much the studios can ruin a film by not permitting the director to follow his vision. My prime example, from a different genre, is the Abyss by Cameron. The original release made absolutely no sense. They cut the whole reason the aliens were even there to begin with. The director's cut is one of the best sci-fi movies ever made (except that there are no swords in it :D ). I look forward to see what Scott's true vision was for this film. Think i'll order it today. :)

[Rick]

You won't believe the extra plot lines ; they explain everything . ;)

[nechesh]

You won't believe the extra plot lines ; they explain everything . ;)

Beautiful! I actually just ordered it on Amazon for only $20. I love Amazon, but don't tell my bookseller wife i said so. ;)

[PUFF]

For Dah/Dahb guys... :D

http://www.kingnaresuanmovie.com/ (soon)

Its historical accuracy 's not as high as reference books, but they did the best. There 's some degree of producer 's interpretation, though. :p

[Yannis]

I am far of dhafia :D , but I will see the movie for sure. It looks epic.

[Andrew]

For Dah/Dahb guys... :D

http://www.kingnaresuanmovie.com/ (soon)

Its historical accuracy 's not as high as reference books, but they did the best. There 's some degree of producer 's interpretation, though. :p

Cool! :cool: Looks epic. Any word of a subtitled release?

[Bill M]

"The Road to Bali" has a few guys wearing Javanese keris.

Two of the character's names are amusing.

Ramayana --- actually the name for a Hindu epic. 500 to 100 BCE

Ken Arok --- a fascinating character in ealry Javanese history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Arok

The latter is a wonderful story about a famous Javanese keris and Mpu Gandring. Certainly read the part about the woman (Ken Dedes) Ken Arok went for and where she kept a shining light. :eek:

However these characters in the movie have absolutely nothing to do with their famous names. I just think it is very funny that someone decided to name two people in a Bob Hope / Bing Crosby / Dorothy Lamour movie. :confused:

[Emanuel]

Just saw this movie today, and I do recommend it. There's quite a bit of flying around, as Chinese movies are famous for, but the story is quite good and it features a lot of fighting...The story is akin to some Shakespearean dramas, and does a good job of showing the wielding of true power.

There is a particular cycle knife/sword a lot like a large bank, or maybe like some versions of the falx. Of course it's used in very weird ways, thrown around and caught back like a boomerang, but nice anyway. I have many many misgivings about the types of warfare depicted but I'll put that down to artistic license :D
There's also some interesting pole-arm fights, but somehow I doubt these were ever used in close quarter combat. Magnificent demonstration of armour, but again, I somehow doubt these were 10th century styles.

Emanuel

[tom hyle]

Cemetery man; a light hearted zombie romp from France or Itally (I don't remember which). Most super-bad-ass shovels ever. They make the thing Tuco was considering eviscerating blondie with in The Good The Bad and The Ugly look like a garden trowel. :eek:

[David]

Just saw this movie today, and I do recommend it. There's quite a bit of flying around, as Chinese movies are famous for, but the story is quite good and it features a lot of fighting...The story is akin to some Shakespearean dramas, and does a good job of showing the wielding of true power.

There is a particular cycle knife/sword a lot like a large bank, or maybe like some versions of the falx. Of course it's used in very weird ways, thrown around and caught back like a boomerang, but nice anyway. I have many many misgivings about the types of warfare depicted but I'll put that down to artistic license :D
There's also some interesting pole-arm fights, but somehow I doubt these were ever used in close quarter combat. Magnificent demonstration of armour, but again, I somehow doubt these were 10th century styles.

Emanuel

Haven't seen this one yet, but from the same director at House of Flying Daggers and Hero i believe. Both were brilliantly stylized martial arts films which elevate the genre to a high art...but i do not suppose they are meant to be historically accurate. Somehow i don't think the breast popping bodice fashions i saw in the trailer are exactly period either. :rolleyes: This is purely art for art's sake and beautifully done at that. Love the directors use of color! :)

[Emanuel]

haha yeah, they look more like French courtesans at the courts of Louis 14-16.

[FenrisWolf]

Not to detract from all things Middle Eastern and SE Asian, but what are some of the better films as far as the European Dark Ages? I was just watching "The 13th Warrior" again, which is one of those that makes me crazy. It's one of the best made as far as capturing Norse attitudes and beliefs ("Your sword is too heavy? Grow stronger!") which is why I love the film, but the arms and armor are a complete nightmare. The viking swords have been given a growth hormone, turning them into two-handed swords, and the armor is a blend of everything from a Roman Gladiator's helm to a 16th century back-and-breastplate, complete with Milanese engraving. Oh, and you have to love Antonio Banderas grinding one of those oversized, double-edged viking broadswords down into a passable single-edged scimitar (that is now sharp enough to cut through a three inch branch with one blow!)

So, examples of reasonably accurate films set in and around the Norman conquest of England or the earlier Viking raids of the same? The only one that jumps to mind for me is 'The Warlord' starring Charlton Heston.... :confused:

[Emanuel]

How about "Beowul and Grendel" with Gerard Butler? It's decent fun, but I don't know how accurate arms and armour are.
I think Danish, Swedish and Norwegian cinema has quite a lot of Norse epics that never see the light of day in the English-speaking world. Give IMDB a search and see what comes up.
I would love to see cinematic adaptations of some of the Icelandic Sagas. They make wicked story-telling.

[Andrew]

Not to detract from all things Middle Eastern and SE Asian, but what are some of the better films as far as the European Dark Ages? I was just watching "The 13th Warrior" again, which is one of those that makes me crazy. It's one of the best made as far as capturing Norse attitudes and beliefs ("Your sword is too heavy? Grow stronger!") which is why I love the film, but the arms and armor are a complete nightmare. The viking swords have been given a growth hormone, turning them into two-handed swords, and the armor is a blend of everything from a Roman Gladiator's helm to a 16th century back-and-breastplate, complete with Milanese engraving. Oh, and you have to love Antonio Banderas grinding one of those oversized, double-edged viking broadswords down into a passable single-edged scimitar (that is now sharp enough to cut through a three inch branch with one blow!)

So, examples of reasonably accurate films set in and around the Norman conquest of England or the earlier Viking raids of the same? The only one that jumps to mind for me is 'The Warlord' starring Charlton Heston.... :confused:

Fenris, I fear you'll be dissappointed if you insist on weapon/armour accuracy in your movies. :(

For fun, check out the recent "King Arthur" with Kyra Knightly. A new movie is coming out soon about viking visitors to North America. Can't recall the name right now, but in the trailer it was taking the standard liberties.

[Emanuel]

A new movie is coming out soon about viking visitors to North America. Can't recall the name right now, but in the trailer it was taking the standard liberties.

It's called Pathfinder. You'll laugh...or cry...most likely both.

[David]

Fenris, I fear you'll be dissappointed if you insist on weapon/armour accuracy in your movies. :(

For fun, check out the recent "King Arthur" with Kyra Knightly. A new movie is coming out soon about viking visitors to North America. Can't recall the name right now, but in the trailer it was taking the standard liberties.

The new flick you are referring to Andrew is called Pathfinder. It is based on a graphic novel so you can bet that it will be visually beautiful and dreadfully inaccurate much as the terribly over-hyped 300 was. Hpoefully it will be better scripted and directed than that travesty and not insulting an entire ancient culture that was the foundation of modern civilization along the way. :rolleyes:
But a quick viewing through the films picture gallery doesn't leave much room for accuracy. Looks pretty though. :)
http://www.pathfinderthemovie.com/

[Rick]

Looks like a great sword and shield movie; I saw the poster when I went to see 300.
Throw accuracy out the window and just enjoy the action. :D :D

The Wampanoag were just recently recognised by the US gov't; they are our local tribe here on Cabo Bacalau . :cool:

[micas]

Pathfinder looks like the Norte Americano version of Tarzan. And the Vikings are straight out of Frank Frazetta.

Check out Alatriste with Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn from LOTR). Spanish sword and dagger stuff in there. Interesting pike fighting at the end. "Looks" realistic.

[Emanuel]

Check out Alatriste with Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn from LOTR). Spanish sword and dagger stuff in there. Interesting pike fighting at the end. "Looks" realistic.

The book by Arturo Perez Reverte was good, and I heard the movie was all right.

[ariel]

I have only one word for you:
"300"

[Marc]

The book by Arturo Perez Reverte was good, and I heard the movie was all right.

It kind of depends on who you ask... :)

The sword and dagger duels were fairly OK, though, given the circumstances.
The final battle... well, let's not go into that. :)

[ariel]

The only superb Perez Reverte's book was " The Club Dumas" and it was mangled cinematographically into something beyond awful.
"Flanders Panel" was good. " The Fencing Master" was very good.
But the Alatriste series.... very disappointing. Did not see the movies; are they "straight on DVD" releases?

[David]

I have only one word for you:
"300"

When i think of 300 i can only remember corny, wooden dialog, tedious narration, obnoxious characters that are more stupid than heroric, bad CGI effects that looked just plain "fake" instead of the graphic novel "stylization" they were hoping for, extremely bad history that maligns an entire culture of people and portrays them as monsters and enslavers, really bad pacing that breaks the action up with long boring segments that make a pretense at trying to be an actual story and lots of dumb talk about the glory of dying a "good" death in the heat of sensless battle. The fight sequences (the only real reason to watch this flick) became kinda tedious after the first couple with it's repetetive start/stop/start action. I couldn't find a single character in the entire movie that i could care enough for to worry about their impending death (in fact i couldn't wait until they were all dead). I could go on and delve into the not so subliminal political propaganda and comparisions to our (the west) battle with the "Persian" empire today, but i will leave it at that.
My only hope, since i have no real knowledge of the weapons of the time, would be that they might have got the arms and armor right, but somehow i have my doubts. :rolleyes:

[Emanuel]

My only hope, since i have no real knowledge of the weapons of the time, would be that they might have got the arms and armor right, but somehow i have my doubts. :rolleyes:

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

[David]

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

But how else would we get to see their fabulous (and CGI identical) six-pack abs? :D

[ariel]

Perhaps, an opinion from the American pre-eminent military historian, Victor Davis Hanson, could be of help.
http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20070323-085421-8261r.htm

[David]

From the above mentioned article:
True, 2,500 years ago, almost every society in the ancient Mediterranean world had slaves. And all relegated women to a relatively inferior position. Sparta turned the entire region of Messenia into a dependent serf state.
But in the Greek polis alone, there were elected governments, ranging from the constitutional oligarchy at Sparta to much broader-based voting in states like Athens and Thespiae.
Most importantly, only in Greece was there a constant tradition of unfettered expression and self-criticism. Aristophanes, Sophocles and Plato questioned the subordinate position of women. Alcidamas lamented the notion of slavery.


And yet is is my understanding that at that time Persia had already banned slavery and gave far more rights to their women than the Greeks or any other Western culture did at the time, much to the distain of the Greeks.
Pederasty was also the norm in ancient Greece. I didn't see any of that depicted in the film though. :rolleyes:
Hey, it's a comic book. I wouldn't argue with anyone about many of the more detail oriented inaccuracies in the film. Exact numbers are unimportant here. 300, 600, 1500, who cares. And yes, the story line was basically taken from the writings of the greeks themselves. Of course the Greeks would depict their attackers as being lesser beings then themselves. This is the way of all war, to depict ones enemy as less than human. But i also see using that skewed Greek viewpoint as dangerous propaganda for our modern times.
But politics and accuracy aside, this film still sucked!
BTW, i didn't find the line, "Then we shall fight in the shade." in reference to the Persian arrows blotting out the sun to be among the corny ones as the author suggests. Rather it was probably the best line in the whole film.
:)

[S.Al-Anizi]

But how else would we get to see their fabulous (and CGI identical) six-pack abs? :D

Hey, how do you suppose they got all those actors packed with those abs? Or was it just CGI? Most even had 8-packs, let alone the few unlucky with 6 :shrug:

[FenrisWolf]

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).
Oddly enough, given all its numerous other flaws, in this area it's relatively accurate, although a loincloth and mantle counts as overdressed. Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.

The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

[katana]

The 300 spartans were Hoplites, heavily armed infantry.
"Hoplites wore tunics under other armor that included breastplates, helmets, and greaves. They carried spears and swords to use in their close style of fighting. Spartan hoplites also wore a short red cloak and long hair."


http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/greekweapons/g/Hoplite.htm

Without the shields or armour the greeks would never have survived the initial onslought of arrows. Not widely known is the fact that the 300 spartans were aided by 1000 Thespians (no not actors :D ) and Thebans who elected to stay and fight...although the Thebans surrendered just before the final slaughter.
The Greek armour/shield and military skill with the spear easily kept the 'Immortals' back as they were lightly armoured and had 'wicker' shields.

The spartans were true warriors....their 7-8 year old sons would be taken away from their families and trained in millitary schools, severe injury and death during training was not uncommon. One test on the young boys was to be publicly flogged until they uttered a sound.....the last boy to cry out was the winner :eek: Even the women were taught how to fight ....with or without weapons :eek: One of the tasks to prove their manhood was to sneak out of the military school ...unseen ...and strangle (to death) a male slave (being a military state much manual labour was done by captured soldiers whom were enslaved) and return...undetected. If caught they were severely punished.

[David]

...Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.
The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat. As stated in Ariel's source:

The warriors of "300" look like comic-book heroes because they are based on Frank Miller's drawings that emphasized bare torsos, futuristic swords and staged fight scenes. In other words, director Zack Snyder tells the story not in a realistic fashion -- like the mostly failed attempts to recapture the ancient world in recent films such as "Troy" or "Alexander" -- but in the surreal manner of a comic book or video game.
The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body.

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".
Likewise, nudity in sports was an extention of that artistic sense into the actual world. And then, the ancient Greeks also found the male body attractive for completely different reasons outside of it's prowess on the battle or sports field. ;) :D

[Emanuel]

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat.

The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body. [/B]

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".


yup

[ariel]

David,
You seem to be implying very heavily ( twice already) that the homosexual practices of ancient Greecs somehow were peculiar to them and cast doubt on their fighting ability and masculinity. Homosexuality was with us for ages, and was widespread. Persians, from antique times to Abbas-ian era and to now were equally involved: they always had brisk market in pretty boys ("surker") and castrated their young captives to preserve their "youthful" appearance.
Even in modern Saudi Arabia, the bastion of consevative Islam, it is so widespread, that the country is regarded as "gay heaven"
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200705/gay-saudi-arabia
It is not what one does in bed, but what one does on the battlefield that determines military prowess: bisexual Alexander's Macedonians utterly destroyed equally bisexual Darius' Persian army despite numerical inferiority.
Let me assure you: there is "sin" even in Cincinnati :D

[David]

Sorry Ariel, but you greatly misinterpret the intention of my remarks. This was not at all a commentary on the lifestyle having anything to do with the fighting abilities of the Greeks or anyone else for that matter. I was merely mocking the story for being so homophobic as to leave out this very well know aspect of that culture. Likewise with the film Alexander strongly down played this side of his life. My point is that if you are going to do historic films, even in comic book form, why leave out these aspects of the culture. They might have actually added some depths to the otherwise 2 dimensional characters of 300.
In my second remark i was merely stating the obvious to help support why i felt nudity was common in sports, though not in warfare. Again there was no slight of masculinity implied. I see nothing unmasculine about homosexuality. In fact, i would think that it would have to be quite the opposite, masculinity pushed to it's extreme. :)
As for "sin" in Sinsinnati....you don't know the half of it my friend. ;) :D

[Emanuel]

I recently saw the Russian movie "Day Watch" - sequel to "Night Watch". The story happens in the present, more or less, but there is a scene involving Timur-i-Leng (Tamerlane) attacking a fort. He bears what looks like a well-depicted shamshir with a very nice crossguard. This doesn't agree with Timur's 14th century does it?
Could anyone post some pics of Timurid sabres?

Emanuel

[Rick]

Is now out on DVD in US format .
Accurate or not; I just loved this film .. :D

[josh stout]

I love the swords in Ashok a Bollywood (Mumballywood :confused: ) movie with many extras who seem to have brought their own swords. The only really bad one is the one held by Ashok himself.
Josh

[Bill M]

How about "Real Glory?"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031842/

Moro, kampilan, Barong, Kris, Krag.

[Yannis]

I saw "300" just few days ago and as a Greek allow me to say few things

1. It is not the first time, and I suppose it is not the last, that Hollywood makes its own "version" of history and mythology. I am glad that, at least this one, it had no "happy end" as usual, against the known facts.

2. There are plus and minus in the film accuracy. For example, there was no pro Persian conspiracy and traitors for gold inside the city. Spartan culture had no value for gold, even their coins were very heavy iron ones.

3. There are a lot of mistakes on battle. Spartans superiority was not the kung fu style of the movie, but the strong chain of heavy armored warriors (phalanx), unusual or unknown at the time, were one covers with his shield the next in the chain. This tactic with "othismos" (push against the enemy) could break big armies of lone wolfs. This tactic was used and developed further later by Alexander and Romans.

4. Of course they were not naked on battle, but... Generally in Greek armies they were some naked soldiers named "psili" or "gymnites" (same root with word Gymnasium, were athletes were naked).

5. Spartans were naked only before the battle, to wash themselves and fix their hair. They wanted to fight in a celebration

6. Spartan women, against the belief, were possibly the most free women of the era. They had their own property, they had speech on public matters and they had a lot of sports, like javelin and wrestling. If they had too, they could fight in battles and actually they had win, without their men, Pyros, the mighty king of Epirus, who came to conquer Sparta a time where men where in other war!

7. The phrase "Then we shall fight in the shade" is not Hollywood script. It is supposed said by Diinekis as Herodotus wrote.

Etc. etc. We were not there, the history was written by Greeks (but not all of them loved Spartans) etc etc

The real thing is that this battle, and few more after that, gave to this world something important: The chance to Athenians to build their culture (theatre, drama, history etc) and Democracy so, at least, we have a name for our modern political systems :D

I have a sympathy for Persians, who also gave too much to the world, but I dont personally like pyramid style empires. And of course Xerxes (the great) was not this kind of freak that the movie shows.

more about the battle in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

[Rick]

How about "Real Glory?"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031842/

Moro, kampilan, Barong, Kris, Krag.

Love this movie . ;)
Of course the U.S. imperialistic slant to everything is obvious; still it is the only movie that I am aware of thar covers any aspect of the Moro Wars.

Lots of Hollywood legends in this flick.

I believe it may still be found in VHS format.

[CharlesS]

Great old movie, and is still on VHS.

Surprising attention to detail in Moro weapons, though not 100% of the time....so much so that I think many real kampillan and barong may actually be props.

[Rick]

Oh God, :eek:
Let's not go there; if that's the case just think about the leftover props from Zulu . :rolleyes:

[Bill M]

The barongs, kris and kampilans did look authentic. There was one VERY shiny kris.

But the "Datu" was a Russian actor and carried a Balinese keris. The leader of the Moro was a Japanese actor. He did have a big honking kampilan.

But I think they pulled it off rather well. Really liked the movie.

[Bill M]

Maybe a few of those Zulu spears found their way up to the Sudan? :confused:

Grand scale of a movie with Charlton Heston playing General "Chinese" Gordon and -- no kidding -- Sir Lawrence Olivier as the "Mahdi" aka the "Expected One."

Quite a few kaskaras and some really good spears.

1966 -- cast of thousands that were not digital! Real guys on camels and horses. Remington rifles.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060588/

"In this epic tale of the British Army's travails in North Africa, two acting giants appear together for the first and only time: Charlton Heston portrays General Charles "Chinese" Gordon, who in 1883 led the defense of the Sudanese garrison against a Muslim rebellion. And Laurence Olivier plays the instigator of that uprising -- Mahdi, the "spiritual leader" of the Sudan. Robert Ardrey received an Oscar nomination for his screenplay."

[Rick]

Got that one on DVD, also the early version of The Four Feathers; the recent version is junk.

[ariel]

The barongs, kris and kampilans did look authentic. There was one VERY shiny kris.

But the "Datu" was a Russian actor and carried a Balinese keris. The leader of the Moro was a Japanese actor. He did have a big honking kampilan.

But I think they pulled it off rather well. Really liked the movie.
Vladimir Sokoloff specialized in "exotic" roles: he was the wise elderly Mexican in the " Magnificient Seven"
Sometimes, it is good to have an unidentifiable accent :)

[Bill M]

OMG! Could not stop watching! Gripping, intense deep, disturbing images. Anne and I LOVED it.

Wonderful weapons, knives, spears, bone armor on several warriors. Shoulder armor/decorations made from human jawbones But, historically maybe not great (better than 300, historically speaking).

The people are supposed to be Mayan. My subtitles all show "Speaking Mayan" and the an English translation. Turn on the subtitles!

However it is my understanding that the Mayans were not so bloodthirsty. The Toltec were worse and as Barry said in another thread, it was the Aztecs who met the Spaniards, not the Mayans or Toltec's.

Artistic Movie License, possibly. Also I guess it could have been some later spanish guys.

Whatever, the movie is immensely worth watching! I would be careful with children and otherwise faint of heart. Not only is it violent and bloody, but as fast-paced as any episode of "24."

A continual out-of-the-frying-pan-and-into-the-fire pace. Just when you think "Jaguar Paw" (the movie's Jack Bauer in a loin cloth) has gotten away, here come the bad guys ---- again.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3919&highlight=Apocalypto

[Bill M]

Just finished Rashomon again. Anyone want to comment on the Chinese jian Toshiro Mifune wielded? Could it have been a ken?

Nice Tanto the woman had.

GREAT MOVIE! Surprised no-one has mentioned it here before. I did a search, but could not find any references that it has been mentioned here.

[ariel]

It is a Ken.
I last saw it many years ago and read Akutagawa's stories at about the same time, but somehow I recall that the bandit lures the samurai deep into the forest to show and sell him Korean-style weapons from a tomb. Well, the Hyunday was a lemon :rolleyes:
If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is :)
How about the "Samurai" trilogy, also with Mifune?
And, of course, the Polish trilogy: Deluge, By Fire and Sword and Pan Volodyewsky?
And, again, if you want to see swords, yataghans and kilijes galore, find an old Russian movie " The Sword and the Dragon" ( Real title was "Ilya Muromets"). Kievan Rus against the Tatars.

[Emanuel]

Just saw a trailer for this Hindi epic http://www.jodhaaakbar.com/ a big period production about Akbar. Seems to have loads of tulwar action, fights between Rajputs and Mughals, along with the ubiquitous love story.
I'm looking forward to it.

[ariel]

I guess this is the first movie of the "marital bliss" for the leading couple.
Must be visually impressive; I just hope neither of them starts belting a song and a dance in the middle of a fighting sequence.
I guess that is what Indian audience demands, but if Bollywood wants to go international, they will have to get rid of this annoyance. Can you imagine Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton taking a break from slaughtering the Nazis in the middle of "Where Eagles Landed" and doing a love duet?

[Emanuel]

Check out the trailer on the website. I heard choruses in the background but those were probably just the trailer's score. I got the impression that the movie was pretty serious.

[ariel]

Hope you are right: I'll be the first one to Netflick it!
Say whatever you want, but, quoting Roger Ebers, Aishwariya Rai is not only the most beautiful woman in the world, but the second most beautiful as well.

[Jeff D]

Can you imagine Clint Eastwood and Richard Burton taking a break from slaughtering the Nazis in the middle of "Where Eagles Landed" and doing a love duet?

I thought they were just good friends!!! :eek:

Jeff

[Emanuel]

I guess this is the first movie of the "marital bliss" for the leading couple. Must be visually impressive; I just hope neither of them starts belting a song and a dance in the middle of a fighting sequence.


I...er...saw the movie....yup they do the love duet. At least it's not in the fight sequences, which are quite weak. The fighting is poorly choreographed, lots of edge on edge sparing and western fencing, nothing remotely similar to gatka. The tulwars SUCK, they've got huge handles fit for the Governator, no other kinds of weapons - with the exception of one very quick shot of a jamadhar.
Basically it's one big love story, with lots of time spent in character development. Big dance and song sequences, although to be fair they're integrated in court festivities, not just popping out of the blue, and the tunes are energetic and catchy.
Pretty movie with a nice picture of Mughal and Rajput culture and art, and yes, a very beautiful Rai. Bad movie for weapons and battles.

[HangPC2]

The Queen Of Langkasuka (2008)




http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/998/thequeenoflangkasuka200in7.jpg


http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/925/thequeenoflangkasukaigoue3.png

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9092/thequeenoflangkasukathejc0.jpg

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1617/thequeenoflangkasukatheqq4.jpg

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7353/thequeenoflangkasukathezy3.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9960/thequeenoflangkasukamtheq4.jpg



http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/8716/thequeenoflangkasukamakvs5.jpg

[David]

Here's a trailer :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ujKr-Y0Wz8
Says at the end that there will be a "worldwide release" so i hope that there will be an English subtitled version. Looks interesting and fun. :)

[ariel]

Very agricultural: 75 dead bodies per acre.
Looks good! Keep us informed about its availability.

[VANDOO]

JET LEE'S FEARLESS IS SUPPOSIDLY ABOUT CHINAS GREATEST WUSHU MASTER. I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH IS BASED ON HISTORY AND FACT BUT I DID LIKE THE MOVIE AND THERE WERE SOME GOOD FIGHT SECQENCES SOME WITH WEAPONS. THE FIGHT SCENES ARE SUPERHUMAN AS USUAL BUT NO FLYING OVER HOUSES, RUNNING ON WATER AND FIGHTING ON BAMBOO FRONDS. :)

[Bill M]

The Queen Of Langkasuka (2008)


Looks Malay.

[David]

Looks Malay.
I believe it is Bill. Langkasuka was a kingdom which later became Pattani.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langkasuka

[blacklacrau]

Do u remenber Sandokan "The tiger of Mompracen" from Emilio Salgari ??
A story in borneo...

Lots of kris, parangs, daos...dayaks!

[HangPC2]

Tjoet Nja' Dhien (1988)



Weapon : Peudeueng Peusangan (Hulu Meu Apet) , Peudeueng Peusangan (Hulu Tumpang Beunteung) , Rencong , Dutch Klewang



http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5872/tjoetnjadhienposterrc9.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6965/tjoetnjadhiencast01qv3.jpg

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6470/tjoetnjadhiencast02zl9.jpg




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzAUMzPU0FU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc9zvFObC2E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc9zvFObC2E



http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/67/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_1_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/68/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_2_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/69/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_3_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/70/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_4_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/71/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_5_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/72/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_6_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/73/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_7_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/74/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_8_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/75/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_9_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/76/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_10_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/78/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_11_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/79/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_12_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/80/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_13_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/81/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_14_of_15

http://putraaceh.multiply.com/video/item/82/Tjoet_Nja_Dhien_15_of_15

[VANDOO]

I JUST WATCHED AN INDIA FILM (THE TIGER AND THE FLAME) IT IS SAID TO HAVE BEEN INDIAS FIRST CINIMASCOPE FILM AND IS ONE OF THE EPICS WITH A CAST OF THOUSANDS. VERY COLORFUL WITH PALACES,ELEPHANTS, DANCING GIRLS, CANNONS AND BATTLES, IT IS AVAILABLE ON DVD. THE STORY IS OF A QUEEN WHO TRYS TO FREE HER COUNTRY FROM THE BRITISH EAST INDIA COMPANY.

A STRANGE BLACK AND WHITE FILM THAT IS ALMOST OPERATIC IS (ALEXANDER NEVSKY)MADE IN RUSSIA IN 1938 IT DEALS WITH THE RUSSIANS FIGHTING THE GERMANS DURING THE DAYS OF SWORDS AND ARMOR.

THE MOVIE (PATHFINDER) WAS MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY , THE RECENT VERSION WAS BASED ON A PREVIOUS (PATHFINDER). THE ORIGINAL IS MUCH CLOSER TO FACTS AND A MUCH BETTER STORY AS WELL. IT IS ALSO OLDER AND IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY IN BLACK AND WHITE. I AM NOT SURE WHERE THE STORY COMES FROM ORIGINALLY BUT THE TRIBAL PEOPLE REMINDED ME OF LAPPS AND THEY DID HAVE REINDEER.

[Rick]

Hahahaha !!!
Back from the dead .... :D

Warner Herzog's

Aguirre (Wrath of God) .
Klaus Kinski stars .

Seriously good IMHO . :)


Now back to watching the DVD . :D

Rick

[David]

Hahahaha !!!
Back from the dead .... :D

Warner Herzog's

Aguirre (Wrath of God) .
Klaus Kinski stars .

Seriously good IMHO . :)


Now back to watching the DVD . :D

Rick
Ah Yes, Werner Herzog's Aguirre, The Wrath of God has been on my top 10 list for many years. Klaus is just terrific in that role...and i believe that's his actually daughter, Nastasha, playing his daughter in the film. This is really a must see, not so much for the weapons, but just because it is great film making. The ending will haunt you forever. :)

[Rick]

Ah Yes, Werner Herzog's Aguirre, The Wrath of God has been on my top 10 list for many years. Klaus is just terrific in that role...and i believe that's his actually daughter, Nastasha, playing his daughter in the film. This is really a must see, not so much for the weapons, but just because it is great film making. The ending will haunt you forever. :)

So will the beginning .......... :cool:

That film had to be a logistical nightmare to make 30 odd years ago .

[Spunjer]

here an interesting one coming up:


http://www.filmstalker.co.uk/archives/2008/06/ong_bak_2_trailer.html


Ong Bak 2. freakin tony jaa is the fo'shizzle!!!

can't wait for this one

[Andrew]

here an interesting one coming up:


http://www.filmstalker.co.uk/archives/2008/06/ong_bak_2_trailer.html


Ong Bak 2. freakin tony jaa is the fo'shizzle!!!

can't wait for this one

Nice! :cool:

[migueldiaz]

has braveheart been mentioned already?

earlier, bill posted an article (http://216.219.192.186/vb/showthread.php?t=538) on wallace's 6-pound and 5-foot sword leaving scotland for the first time.

[migueldiaz]

I'd also highly recommend "Hero", an epic Chinese story.

The cinematography is superb, the sword fights are excellent, and the story that is full of twists and turns is very engaging.

[kronckew]

having been reading the kampilan thread ala bill marsh with interest, i happened to see Hollywood's 'thief of Baghdad' with Sabu, over the weekend.

there is a point where he opens a bottle, gets the traditional genie & three wishes, he then gets flown to the top of the tallest peak in the top of the world to steal the 'all-seeing eye' from a temple idol.

after arrival, he liberates a sword from a long dead skeleton, all covered in cob-webs ('conan' plagiarism?) as he cleaned off the web, it becomes obvious it's a kampilan, complete with traditional hilt wound in rattan, sinuous metal staple on one side, crocodile beak blade, etc. he then climbs the idol, and a giant spiders web with the kampilan between his teeth, kills the giant spider & unfortunately drops the sword never to be seen again....

there of course were the more common shamshir and daggers throughout.

not bad for a sixty-odd year old movie.

[migueldiaz]

... having been reading the kampilan thread ala bill marsh with interest, i happened to see Hollywood's 'thief of Baghdad' with Sabu, over the weekend ... after arrival, he liberates a sword from a long dead skeleton, all covered in cob-webs ('conan' plagiarism?) as he cleaned off the web, it becomes obvious it's a kampilan, complete with traditional hilt wound in rattan, sinuous metal staple on one side, crocodile beak blade, etc.
Thanks Kronckew.

Being a Filipino that is struck with kampilan-philia, I need to see that movie! :)

Also, the kampilan's appearance in that movie was mentioned earlier (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002285.html) --

ruel
Senior Member posted 06-25-2004 04:48

Thief of Bagdad (1949): Kampilan, tachi, firangi, yataghan. Don't believe me? Go ahead, watch it...

---

tom hyle
Senior Member posted 06-25-2004 09:10

... Theif of Baghdad seems to feature some "real" weapons ... "Theif" contains one of the instances of holding a kampilan backward, which seems like it'd be obvious with a real sword ...

Thanks again Kronckew :)

[kronckew]

i shall assume they got the date wrong then and they referred to the sabu version, as the sabu version was apparently 1940. , ruel's 1949 date of their post (and tom's spelling of thief) threw me off - there have been a number of versions ;)

while sabu carried the kampilan upside down for a while (edge up), when he was actually using it, cutting at the spider, and later when he cut it's suspension thread, he held it correctly, striking with the edge, not the back of the blade, i looked carefully :) he also carried it in his mouth edge out as he apparently didn't want to cut himself :rolleyes:

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/_uimages/kampilan.jpg

the kampilan in the movie was similar to the above, which is edge down, and the angled fork of the grip up when held, tho some kampilans in modern repos have the angled fork also down, as below.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/stuff/377e25cf.jpg

(images from google image search)

[migueldiaz]

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/_uimages/kampilan.jpg
the kampilan in the movie was similar to the above, which is edge down, and the angled fork of the grip up when held, tho some kampilans in modern repos have the angled fork also down, as below.

thanks kronckew!

in the meantime that i haven't seen the movie yet, i was wondering what type it was they used. so thanks for posting the above image.

regards.

[Bill M]

Mongol (2007)

WOW! Swords, spears, shields. Wonderful movie!

[David]

I'd also highly recommend "Hero", an epic Chinese story.

The cinematography is superb, the sword fights are excellent, and the story that is full of twists and turns is very engaging.
Miguel. this was has been mentioned before as well, but thanks for posting all the photos.
I absolute LOVE this film, own it and have watched it many times. :)
Also mentioned before (but if you like Hero), by the same director Zhang Yimou, see House of Flying Daggers. I like this one even better. :)

[ThePepperSkull]

The Queen Of Langkasuka (2008)


One thing that came to mind immediately when I saw the trailer for this was how there were a lot of malay/indonesian Keris daggers in the beginning of the trailer, and at the end we see stuntman-turned-leading actor Dan Chupong wielding a Moro or Bruneian-type kris sword.

was that just me or was he just holding a big keris as opposed to a kris?

Here is a pic featuring Dan Chupong in the centre, holding the weapon in question with his outstretched arm:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AIe1UCH6zp0/SgF9ZXdxh8I/AAAAAAAAANU/vV2zD1eA07c/s400/AMH%3B+Queen+of+Langkasuka.jpg

[kronckew]

was intrigued by the movie trailer, so i found a copy of the dvd with english subtitles, just finished watching it. not only were there lots of keris, but there were in fact many moro kris, complete with kakatua grips, horses hoof grips, baca-baca and all. the blade the head army guy used had an ivory kakatua grip, and a distinct central ridge. there were also quite a number of dyak swords amoungst the pirates, and even one interesting axe. looked like copper breastplates, some bronze spears and quite a few flintlocks. they even worked in leonardo style hang gliders, a neat form of chain shot and even some ninjas. japanese armour, plate suits, and a few more items of interest here. even the dragon mouthed cannon... most of the edged weapons looked like the real thing, at least in the quick glimpses. i think they must have had acess to a museum or an old armoury somewhere.

all in all a quite good film. you do need to get it with your languages subtitles if you do not speak the language.

[KuKulzA28]

Definitely adding "The Queens of Lang-Kasuka" to my TO SEE list! :D

anyone heard of Seediq Bale? It is a Taiwanese film supposed to come out this fall - last I heard. It is about the Wushe Rebellion, the Atayal Seediq's last attempt to free themselves of Japanese rule... though the warriors carrying out the mgaga with their laraw must have know the futility of facing thousands of modern soldiers, planes, and artillery with their spears, guns, bows, and swords.

youtube trailer of Seediq Bale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS8Ojljcy7A&feature=related)

[ariel]

Two recent Russian movies
"Taras Bulba", after Gogol's novel (kozaks vs the Poles)
"1612", Polish invasion of Russia.
Both have plenty of kilijes, shamshirs, karabelas and fights galore.
Russian jingoism double galore.
But both utterly enjoyable and supervbly made.

[Gavin Nugent]

Two recent Russian movies
"Taras Bulba", after Gogol's novel (kozaks vs the Poles)
"1612", Polish invasion of Russia.
Both have plenty of kilijes, shamshirs, karabelas and fights galore.
Russian jingoism double galore.
But both utterly enjoyable and supervbly made.

I look forward to viewing them Ariel, are they easily found?

I hope subtitled too...

Gav

[ThePepperSkull]

was intrigued by the movie trailer, so i found a copy of the dvd with english subtitles, just finished watching it. not only were there lots of keris, but there were in fact many moro kris, complete with kakatua grips, horses hoof grips, baca-baca and all. the blade the head army guy used had an ivory kakatua grip, and a distinct central ridge. there were also quite a number of dyak swords amoungst the pirates, and even one interesting axe. looked like copper breastplates, some bronze spears and quite a few flintlocks. they even worked in leonardo style hang gliders, a neat form of chain shot and even some ninjas. japanese armour, plate suits, and a few more items of interest here. even the dragon mouthed cannon... most of the edged weapons looked like the real thing, at least in the quick glimpses. i think they must have had acess to a museum or an old armoury somewhere.

all in all a quite good film. you do need to get it with your languages subtitles if you do not speak the language.

I've actually found a DVDrip torrent of the film and am watching it now with some english subtitles I found separately. Dan Chupong and Tony Jaa (the latter is not in the movie) are great stuntmen.

And his kris with the kakatua pommel is very nice. It's great to see the detail of research they put into the costuming for this semi-fantasy film. The kakatua pommel DOES look a little off to me though. Again, this could be any number of reasons, but it is a thai production and a lot of cultures' weapons from neighboring regions have been borrowed for aesthetic purposes.

In any case, it's great to see a swashbuckling movie taking place somewhere that's not commonly shown in films. And being that I'm filipino with some Indonesian and moro ancrestry, it's great to see a fantasy film inspired by malay folklore for a change.

PLUS, you can never go wrong with pirate ninjas.

[ariel]

I look forward to viewing them Ariel, are they easily found?

I hope subtitled too...

Gav

http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=51117&genreid=&genresubid=

http://www.ruskniga.com/sell.asp/ItemId/59999/initcode/newsearch/category/DVD/sc/194

I do not know what system do you have down under, but they can be played on the computer. You will have to learn Russian, though..... :-)

[ThePepperSkull]

A closer look at Dan Chupong's Lord Jarang Character with his Kris Sundang:

http://i45.tinypic.com/33lc7pg.jpg

Very interesting. The sheath is lovely, and to me has a very Keris Sundang Melayu (as opposed to Mindanao/Moro kris) feel to it. The handle is nice, however the pommel seems little off. Is there any historical precedence for this specific kind of kakatua-like pommel, or should this just be chalked up to movie reproduction being a little less than historically accurate (which in this context wouldn't be a problem as this is a fantasy film anyhow. :shrug: )

I'm also trying to get a good screenshot of the blade, which from what I can tell has three waves.

[Lee]

Yesterday I stumbled on to Valley of the Kings (1954) on TCM. Oddly (and the script writer clearly knew it, as a character questioned same being so far east), there was a 'Tuareg' band camped close to the Nile. Captured and challenged as a liar, the lead had to prove himself with takouba and shield: the shields actually looked convincingly genuine and a decent effort had been made on the sword props. Largely filmed on location, the movie is still enjoyable as a travelogue and the fight choreography was, at least, interesting.

[kronckew]

a segment of the film with the aforementioned fight scene:
Linky to video (http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=QkFnamJycWuRpNUZ0TDA&robert-taylor-films-valley-of-the-kings-1954-i-2=)
not bad...

[KuKulzA28]

a segment of the film with the aforementioned fight scene:
Linky to video (http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=QkFnamJycWuRpNUZ0TDA&robert-taylor-films-valley-of-the-kings-1954-i-2=)
not bad...
you're right, not bad at all... I was expecting cheesy and inaccurate... but you know what, the fight scene was enjoyable... not overly clean and not overly gory... it was somewhat realistic, though I got the impression that neither was a skilled fighter but that the local at least had some sword&shield experience (I know its a movie)... :shrug: I like how there was shield bashing, shield parrying, sword disarms... and cleverness on the archeologist's part, though pulling off the face-covering was kinda low... the local lost his will after that. But hey, the archeologist coulda thrown some elbows and knees...

[Nathaniel]

If you liked Suriyothai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeD3MhlUL-E

...this one is even better...Thai Trilogy about the great King Naresuan.

Part one...that came out in 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVbAKJ_N6Fo

Part two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwn3k_Zy5mk&feature=related

Background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Naresuan_%28film%29

Part III to come out this spring....can't wait to see it :)

[Nathaniel]

Plus, another movie I haven't heard anyone mention yet is the John Woo Film, Red Cliff...they have English subtitles for it now and it's in some theaters...they condensed from two parts into one from the Chinese version...it's a very good movie...here is the trailer :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_W7HPCX8x8

[migueldiaz]

Plus, another movie I haven't heard anyone mention yet is the John Woo Film, Red Cliff...they have English subtitles for it now and it's in some theaters...they condensed from two parts into one from the Chinese version...it's a very good movie...here is the trailer :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_W7HPCX8x8Nathaniel, thanks for the links! Nice :)

As for Red Cliff, just saw a flying white dove in the trailer. It's a John Woo movie all right. He's one of my favorite directors, too.

[migueldiaz]

Robert Rodriguez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Rodriguez) has a new film, Machete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machete_(film)). The trailer is here (http://www.mtv.com/videos/movie-trailers/537111/machete.jhtml). The cast includes Robert De Niro, Steven Seagal, Michelle Rodriguez, Cheech Marin, Jessica Alba, et al.

If Quentin Tarentino is your cup of tea, then this movie is for you :)

[Rick]

WoW !! :eek:

Talk about Wet Work ...! :eek: :eek:

[ariel]

It premiers in..... Kazakhstan, of all places!!!
On August 19, 2010.
Borat must have exerted his influence in Hollywood.

[Rick]

How the devil did you find that out, Ariel ? :D




Mondo Cane ....... :cool:

[VANDOO]

THIS MOVIE JOGED MY MEMORY OF A MACHETE THERION HAD. HE MADE TWO POSTS ON IT WHICH CAN BE FOUND IN THE ARCHIVES. POST #1 HUGE HORN HANDLED MACHETE THE SECOND POST WAS "MEXICAN MONSTER MACHETE" POST 1/30/2004. IN THAT POST HE SAID THE MACHETE HAD BEEN BOUGHT BY PRETTY DANGEROUS FILM CO. AND IT WAS TO BE USED IN A MOVIE CALLED "EL CHARRO" I WONDER IF THE FILM WAS EVER MADE?
HERE IS A PIC. OF THE WEAPON IT IS 34IN. LONG WITH A 27.5 IN. BLADE AND IS 4 AND A QUARTER INCH WIDE.

[kronckew]

a bit more decorative version, bit more movie compatible:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Mexican/Mexican003.jpg

26" blade, acapulco style like the therion, made in oxaca

[migueldiaz]

THIS MOVIE JOGED MY MEMORY OF A MACHETE THERION HAD. HE MADE TWO POSTS ON IT WHICH CAN BE FOUND IN THE ARCHIVES. POST #1 HUGE HORN HANDLED MACHETE THE SECOND POST WAS "MEXICAN MONSTER MACHETE" POST 1/30/2004. IN THAT POST HE SAID THE MACHETE HAD BEEN BOUGHT BY PRETTY DANGEROUS FILM CO. AND IT WAS TO BE USED IN A MOVIE CALLED "EL CHARRO" I WONDER IF THE FILM WAS EVER MADE?
HERE IS A PIC. OF THE WEAPON IT IS 34IN. LONG WITH A 27.5 IN. BLADE AND IS 4 AND A QUARTER INCH WIDE.vandoo, apparently a "charro" movie was made all right :)

[David]

Ahhh , if wishes were fishes ......... <sigh> :o

I'm still waiting for the Hollywood clowns to release Farewell To The King on DVD . :mad:
Hey Rick, i'm watching this right now on the THIS movie network on regular TV. Great flick with lots of mandaus. :)
Apparently a region 1 edition is available on amazon for about 12 bucks. :shrug:

[ariel]

How the devil did you find that out, Ariel ? :D




Mondo Cane ....... :cool:



Look here, just under the screen:
http://www.mixx.com/videos/13947358/youtube_machete_illegal_trailer_2010

[Lew]

Just got through watching Hidalgo thought it was funny to see all these Saudis wearing Moroccan Koummya and the dagger that Omar Sharif had tucked in his belt was something really strange?

http://www.allmoviephoto.com/photo/2004_hidalgo_005.html

[kronckew]

this one from the same film has a nimcha for a saif. after a bit of searching thru the internet i found that the film was made 'on location' in the USA and, wait for it....Morocco. would have never guessed. :D

that nimcha reminds me of a photo of one someone posted here recently from an antique store in morocco, silver grip and scabbard....

[VANDOO]

THE LATEST REMAKE OF "THE THREE MUSKETEERS" WAS FUN IT WAS CAST WELL AND THE CINIMA AND EFFECTS WERE ON A PAR WITH THE PIRATES OF THE CARABEEN MOVIES EVEN SOME OF THE SAME CAST. LOTS OF ACTION AND SWORD FIGHTING PRETTY MUCH ENTIRELY THEATRICAL BUT A FUN MOVIE THAT KEEPS MOVING. :D CURRENTLY OUT 2011 NOT SURE IF AVAILABLE ON DVD YET.

[Bill M]

Just saw an interesting movie regarding the Ottoman Turks attempted invasion of Vienna, and got their tushes kicked by the Winged Hussars. As you all may know I am fascinated by the Winged Hussars heavy cavalry.

The Turks decided to attack Vienna and turn the churches into Mosques. If this was successful, they were going to press on to Rome and turn every Cathloic church into a mosque. With 300,000 soldiers against Vienna's 60,000 it looked like a slam dunk until the Winged Hussars charged and in three hours dramatically changed the battle from a rout of the Viennese to a massive retreat of the Turks.

The Turks left in such a hurry, running for their lives, that they left behind EVERYTHING! Weapons, tents, even their coffee beans (not in the movie). The Viennese grabbed up the beans, even opened coffee roasting plant where the Turks dropped them. Vienna is now know for great coffe, and here is where it started.

The battle took place on 9/11 1683.

Well worth a look.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1899285/

[Shakethetrees]

Everyone seems to have forgotten the 1930's version of the Four Feathers, by the Korda brothers.

I think four versions have been made since the 1920's. I haven't seen the earlier version, but don't waste your time on the 1970's or the 1990's/2000's versions.

The one I recommend was filmed on original locations with either participants or the sons of participants. The technical consultants were accredited participants. The British side used all original uniforms and kit, and the Sudanese were shown as the were, original weapons and colorful clothing and no "costumes" designed by a costume designer. There was no artistic license taken by the director.

It shows the Sudan Campaign of the 1890's. In interviews with the cast, the battle scenes were so ferocious that the Western actors in some cases thought they were going to get torn apart.

In the last five or ten years it's become readily available again.

Lush photography, accuracy in the depiction of large scale attacks pre CG, cast of thousands, literally, and weapons galore!

[CharlesS]

I have seen the movie Bill is referring to and it is quite fun...though I was pulling for the Turks, even already knowing the outcome!...BUT I did not know the movie by that name, The Day of the Siege. The version I saw was from the UK and was titled Siege Lord II. They are the same movie.

Not many movies done on military...or any other...subjects of this period, so it's a good one to watch. The costumes are a little hokey, especially for the Turks, but don't let that turn you off to an otherwise fun movie!

[Norman McCormick]

The Turks left in such a hurry, running for their lives, that they left behind EVERYTHING! Weapons, tents, even their coffee beans (not in the movie). The Viennese grabbed up the beans, even opened coffee roasting plant where the Turks dropped them. Vienna is now know for great coffe, and here is where it started.

The battle took place on 9/11 1683.



Hi,
This sword of mine has an earlier Ottoman blade mounted with a later 1850 pattern Austrian hilt. I contacted the Army Museum in Vienna and they told me that this was a popular configuration amongst the officer class. Many of these trophy blades are regarded as heirlooms and were handed down through the generations and mounted with the regulation hilt of the day. I like to think that there is the chance that this blade was captured at the Siege of Vienna but of course I have no means to prove the possibility either way. Hope this is of some interest.
Regards,
Norman.

[drac2k]

Great movies with great weapons :
Seven Samurai
The Samurai Trilogy...Musashi Miyamoto, The Duel at Ichijaji Temple, and finally The Duel at Ganuzyu Island
Legend of the Tsunami Warrior
Apocalypto
Warriors of the Rainbow
Best movie that I have never seen and should be made(if it has, someone please tell me), the defense of the Island of Malta by the Hospitallers in 1565 against the full might of the Ottoman Empire !