European blades in India

[Mercenary]

I found out a notable description of English traveller in India in 1750. About Marathas's sword:
"They are so curious in the blades, that they hold the European broad swords in great contempte, especially the common-sale ones, that are sent out by our ship. When the Derby, captain Anfell, was so scandalously taken by a few of Angria's grabs (Angria was admiral of Marathas's navy), whose marines are exactly the same as the Morattoes, and often some of their subjects; there fell into Angria's hands, among a great quantity of other valuable military stores, some chests of sword blades, on examing of wich Angria said, that the English swords were onli sit to cut butter with".
From "Voyage to the East India" by J.H.Grose.

I know that some European blades were used on the cane-swords. You can see a lot of such items on the court pictures (in profile, shield, tulwar and a cane-sword in the hand). Also when a lot of old European blades were delivered to India it was more easily to use for the common swords the old cheap blades. And such situation there was until second part of 19th (IMHO).

[mahratt]

I know that some European blades were used on the cane-swords. You can see a lot of such items on the court pictures (in profile, shield, tulwar and a cane-sword in the hand). Also when a lot of old European blades were delivered to India it was more easily to use for the common swords the old cheap blades. And such situation there was until second part of 19th (IMHO).

Hi, Mercenary!

What do you think about European blade Indian pata sword? I remember that they are often found.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Mercenary.. Nice example ...This is a Portuguese blade.(Del) Rey inscribed on blade at 4th picture. It is noted that the three primary reasons why they were in the Indian Ocean region was because they sought Gold and Silver, Spices and Mercenaries. In addition, they took a lot of their Mercenaries from India...as well as the likelihood of a blade transition through trade.

Interesting; what look like Dukari Moons locally applied.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Ibrahim,

You are correct 100%. But Angria's snide remark is the only known reference to the "inferiority" of European blades. In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals and there were multitudes of them on Indian weapons to the point of creation of specific classes such as "firangi" and "alemani". North Sumatran Piso Podang ( heavily influenced by Indians) got its name from the Portugese espadao. European officers bought Indian and Persian blades because of their wootz-y beauty but the natives hunted for European blades because of their quality.

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahim,

You are correct 100%. But Angria's snide remark is the only known reference to the "inferiority" of European blades. In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals and there were multitudes of them on Indian weapons to the point of creation of specific classes such as "firangi" and "alemani". North Sumatran Piso Podang ( heavily influenced by Indians) got its name from the Portugese espadao. European officers bought Indian and Persian blades because of their wootz-y beauty but the natives hunted for European blades because of their quality.

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)


Salaams Ariel... History is full of odd remarks and India by its very size must be teeming with them... Well noted on the Piso Podang. It rather underlines the importance of India as an Ethnographic hub and clearly it is a candidate to be treated in its own right as an Ethnographic Region. The difficulty I suppose is that many other countries weapons are reflected in and by Indian styles.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Mercenary]

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)
All as always )))
Someone is searching through the primary sources, trying to let other people to know some new things, while someone is just looking at the old coins and get understanding of the truth immediately ))
Could you post some citations about In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals Not of the color albums, but of travellers' descriptions. Be so kind.

[Mercenary]

Hi, Mercenary!

What do you think about European blade Indian pata sword? I remember that they are often found.
I think, and I have practised with pata-sword a lot, that for such weapon (and may be for broadswords in general, I am not sure) it is no difference what kind of blade there is. But not for tulwars (sabres).

P.S. I know about 1796 for irregular cavalry ))

[ariel]

Ibrahim,
You are correct again.

I am fascinated by Indian swords and collect them avidly. Their imagination and ethno-religious undertones are unsurpassing. I do not collect European weapons: IMHO, they are technologically so thoughtful and goal-oriented, that to me they are boring:-)

But my perspective is that of a collector, not a user.

If I had to choose a sword for a battle, my absolute preference would be for a European one rather than Indian. Interestingly, the Indians thought the same: they mass -produced blades with fake European markings as a sign of the highest quality. How many British swords with fake Indian markings were manufactured in England? :-)))))

[sirupate]

From Swordsman in the British Empire
1.Maj. Waller Ashe (King’s Dragoon Guards) observed that most sowars or Indian cavalrymen were “far better swordsmen than our own troopers, whose cumbersome sabres, that won’t cut and cannot point, with their heavy steel scabbards, are not to be compared with the native tulwar, whose keen razor-like edge enables its owner to lop off a head or a limb as easily as cutting a cabbage. Our English regulation scabbards are heavy, difficult to clean, blunt the sword, and make such a rattle that a secret reconnaissance with them is impossible. These sowars have scabbards of solid brown leather, lined thinly with wood.” (Personal Records of the Kandahar Campaign, 1881.)
2. Col. Richard Bayly, 12th Foot: “To give an idea of the temper, sharpness, and weight of the swords of all these [Mysorean] men, I have only to mention that the barrel of one of the men’s muskets was completely cut in two by one stroke.” (Diary of Colonel Bayly, 1896.)
3. “Major Hunter, 41st Native Infantry, advanced a few paces in front of his men [during the storming of Bhurtpore in 1826] and offered him [Khoosial Singh, a Jat chief] quarter; when, with warlike fury, Khoosial Singh replied to the speaker by a terrific blow. Major Hunter put up his scabbard as a guard; but such was the stoutness of arm of the gallant Jat, so great the sharpness of his sword, that the scabbard was cut through as if it had been paper, and Major Hunter’s left arm nearly severed. Our men then rushed on Khoosial Singh, who fell pierced with innumerable bayonet wounds.” (Viscountess Combermere & Capt. W. W. Knollys, Memoirs and Correspondence of Field Marshal Viscount Combermere, 1866.)
4. Regarding a mutiny of sowars or troopers of the Hyderabad Contingent Cavalry in 1827: “Lieut. Stirling, whilst making a thrust at one of the mutineers, had his sword arm cut to the bone, just above the wrist; and his arm would probably have been taken off had not Lieut. Harrington’s sword, which was cut half through by the same blow, received a great part of the weight of it; whilst he, at the same instant, ran the desperado through the body.” (Asiatic Journal, 1827.)
5. Regarding Lt. & Adjt. C. D. La Touche of the Southern Mahratta Horse: “He had a narrow escape; a matchlock was leveled directly at his face, when a ressaldar [captain] made a cut at it with his sword, severing the barrel at a blow.” (Telegraph and Courier, Dec. 9, 1857.)
6. Maj. Gen. Osborn Wilkinson, Indian Army: “One day, during the siege of Lucknow, I met my old friend [Lt. M. M.] Prendergast who unsheathed his weapon [a Wilkinson] and laughingly showed me the remains of it. It had just been cut clean in two by a slash from a native tulwar, and [Lt. T. C.] Graham’s sword [a Prosser] was broken in an encounter he had with a Pandy [mutineer]—the sword having been smashed in his hand.” (Memoirs, 1896.) 7. Among others, Ensign Augustus H. Alexander (a cavalry brigadier’s a.d.c.) noted that in the 1st Sikh War “we are no match for them in hand-to- hand work. They use their swords and manage their horses a great deal better than we do.” (New Zealand Spectator, Sept. 26, 1846.)
8. “The enemy exhibited frightful ferocity, and with their sharp tulwars (or native swords) hewed off heads and hands and arms by a single blow.” And regarding “the deficiency of our cavalry in proper weapons”, “the weight, badness of balance, and the wretched steel
of which their swords were made gave the enemy a vast superiority over them at close quarters. Like most Asiatics, the Sikhs kept their short handy swords as keen as razors— swords that sliced at every stroke; and we are told that ‘our poor fellows laboured in vain with their long, awkward, and blunt sabres to draw blood’.” (James Grant, British Battles on Land and Sea, 1889.)
9. Lt. E. J. Thackwell, 3rd Dragoons: “The tulwar has a broader back, thicker blade, and keener edge [than the British regulation sword]; and the enemy are in the habit of delivering the drawing cut, a most cutting kind of blow. That flimsy piece of steel called the regulation sword the powerful tulwar of the Sikh shivered to atoms with a blow.
10. Whilst [the leading squadron of the 3rd Dragoons under Captain] Unett was charging [at Chillianwallah in 1849], a Sikh cut at him from behind. A private dragoon, close behind his gallant leader, interposed his sword; the Sikh’s tulwar not only shivered it to pieces, but penetrating Unett’s pouch, entered his back. On several occasions, the English steel was found inferior. Moreover, the enemy were almost invulnerable from the shields, armour, and wadded clothes they wore. The men of the 9th Lancers often failed to pierce them [with their lances].” (Narrative of the Second Sikh War, 1851.) 11. “Single combats were of no unfrequent occurrence [during the battle of Chillianwallah], and in these the Sikh soldier not unfrequently had the advantage. The weapon with which he is armed has a broader back, a thicker blade, as well as a keener edge than ours, and affords him a signal advantage. The gashes inflicted by the tulwar, beneath the stroke of which our steel was shivered to splinters, were frightful.” (E. J. Thackwell, “Confessions of an Old Dragoon,” Colburn’s United Service Magazine, 1854.)
12. John Ship fighting a Gorkha Sobar
With this I was obliged to act on the defensive, till I could catch my formidable opponent off his guard. He cut, I guarded; he thrust, I parried; until he became aggravated and set to work with that impetuosity and determination pretty generally understood by the phrase ‘hammer and tongs’; in the course of which he nearly cut my poor twenty-fourther in pieces.

[Mercenary]

From Swordsman in the British Empire

Million thanks! And it is only the small part of citations from this excellent book.
But I still believe in the decency of some participants and look forward to seeing some citations:
Ariel, could you post some citations about
In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals

[mahratt]

Mercenary, Ariel just did not see your post.

I can not believe that Ariel has no citations in support of what he says in this thread ...

[Jim McDougall]

One of the reasons we initiated the European forum in 2008 is because of the very fact that so many European blades are found mounted in ethnographic context, and India was profoundly one of these.
We opened that forum in order not only to discuss European arms and armor themselves but to become a cross reference to the many weapons cross diffused.

As far as I know, that quote noted from 1750 by Grose (it seems it was in Pant where it is cited) is indeed the only detrimental reference to the European or particularly English blades. Elgood notes the profusion of blades from Europe which flowed in India in the 17th and 18th c. (Hindu Arms and Ritual). The Mahrattas were pronounced traders who brought in European blades in propensity, hence the development of the basket hilt on the traditional khanda and the noted term 'firangi' loosely used in variation in a number of languages to refer to foreign blades.

While the English blades may have been less than favored in the Deccan southward and in the Malabar and Mahratta regions, in the northwest there was a distinct favor for the M1796 light cavalry blade. In the many narratives noting the horrific results of attacks with native tulwars (in Sirupates post inclusive) I recall comments from Capt. Lewis Nolan ('Charge of the Light Brigade fame who had served in India) who stated the same comments about the dreadful effectiveness of the native warriors' and their use of their tulwars.
He then described how horrified the British were when they discovered that the blades in these very tulwars were their own discarded M1796 cavalry sabre blades!
Apparantly the secret was that these warriors constantly sharpened their blades to razor sharpness then carried them constantly oiled and cared for in wooden scabbards (contrary to the dulling iron of British regulation patterns).

The British M1796 light cavalry blades remained in favor of many of the native cavalry units into the 1930s (I have seen and handled a number of these) and versions of these were produced into the 1880s and later specifically in England for these units.

I have seen many Indian tulwars with British blades of Osborn and other M1796 makers, and have an Indian tulwar with a M1788 blade (an exception to the 1796s). The later British blades were not as favored, however many of the M1853 pattern swords found use in Indian units.

Getting back to the western regions and Mahrattas as well as Malabar trade. Many blades from the 'Red Sea' trade carrying mostly German blades but naturally others which became mingled from Italy and others certainly entered these regions. That they were much favored is combined with the fact the the 'Alemani' (=German) swords were much present with the mercenary forces of Europe in the Deccan. Hyder Ali and his son Tipu Sahib used these forces constantly as well as their weapons.
Tipu had an 'ANDREA FERARA' bladed sword which he much favored.

The pata shown at the top in post #2 does indeed have a Sudanese kaskara blade (I have had with similar blade for many years) and have not yet found evidence that these 'dukari' (moons) are ever placed on European blades in this parallel fashion. Therefore it seems curious to see movement of these blades OUT of the North African sphere.

Indian makers who produced blades directly in imitation of European blades often applied copying of the inscriptions and markings to represent the quality of the European blades imbued into their own.

I have never been focused on one field of study and have always followed ethnographic as well as European , and the profound connections and mystery in all combined has been constant fascination in all counts!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sirupate,
Thank you very much for your quotes - they are very interesting.
They are very interesting, and shows that even quite late in history the Indian blades could fully compare to the European blades.
Quite early the English writers started to tell that the Indian blades could not compare to the European blades, and it may have been so in some cases, but far from in all cases.
European marks were used a lot on Indian weapons, but this does not mean that the Indian blades were of a lesser quality.
I too have a number of Indian blades with European markings, but as far as I can judge of a very high quality.

Jim, You have seen pictures of some of my swords, and know that they have European markings, although they are TrueIndian, and of a very high quality as well.
I think good and bad quality of blades were made in most countries. Many exporting countries saw no reason why they should export high quality blades, when other blades sold, till they did not sell any more, so I find it wrong to say, that the European blades were of a higher quality than the Indian ones. True that the metal scabbards did not help the Euorpeans.
Jens

[Mercenary]

Jim, many thanks!
But I prefer links:
Pattern 1821 Indian Army Officer's Sword used by Brigadier-General Sir Henry Lawrence, 1855 (c).

Like many officers who served in India, Lawrence preferred an Indian blade for his sword. These blades, which were more curved than the British pattern, were better suited to the kind of combat encountered in India. This particular sword has a typical Indian blade similar to those used on the native tulwars, while retaining the regulation three-bar hilt.
http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collection/detail.php?acc=1988-08-29-1

[Mercenary]

This sword belonged to General Sir John Hearsey (1793-1865). He carried it as a junior officer in 1817 while capturing a Pindari battery at Seetabuldee near Nagpur during the 3rd Maratha War (1816-1819). Hearsey later commanded the Dinapore Division and was in that post in March 1857 when the 34th Bengal Native Infantry revolted at Barrackpore at the start of the Indian Mutiny (1857-1859).
http://victoriansword.tumblr.com/post/136576687906/tulwar-sword-1817-this-sword-belonged-to

[Jim McDougall]

Actually what I was trying to say was not that the British blades were superior to Indian blades, but that many of these M1796 blades found their way into Indian hands. The rest of the story had nothing to do with the quality of the British blades....but the care in maintaining them. In a further quote it was stated, the British troops learned the importance of SHARP swords.

Ironically, the British swords throughout the 19th century were constantly maligned for their poor quality and complaints from troops using them. In the latter 18th into the 19th this was the reason for the so called sword scandals in England with makers like John Gill, Henry Osborn, and others contesting the favor shown to German blades.

Actually I have never known of any such complaints against Indian blades, quite the contrary. While the Indians copied many foreign blade styles it does seem curious that they often used spurious European marks which have always been thought of as quality symbols. These blades were significantly of quality on their own merit.

The use of high quality wootz and other Indian blades were of course confined to officers who had carte blanche on their weapons, while rank and file accepted issued arms of regulation form.

I think what I was trying to address here was the mistaken notion that European blades were regarded derisively by Indians, and that actually European blades were often dispersed considerably among those in many regions in India. In my opinion, it had nothing to do with quality as much as pure availability. In the case of an abundance of blades coming in from abroad it does seem they would be used if others were not readily available or not yet produced.

In the situation with native military units in the British Raj, the units were each permitted to choose the weapons (within regulation parameters) which were of British pattern swords. In many cases the Indian troopers preferred their traditional tulwars, and I have seen a number produced, in Indian fashion, by Mole of Birmingham. Again, nothing to do with quality, it had to do with regulation and military control.

There is also the perspective of novelty or simple emulation between cultures. The British officers adopted Indian fashions in their uniforms, so the adoption of native weapons is quite understood. With Indian warriors, blades taken as trophies were certainly among those remounted, and this was quite possibly the case I referred to in remarks by Nolan.

There are far too many variables and situations to categorically specify that Indians disliked European blades, it is stated too broadly. What I wanted to point out is that instances regarding these blades need to be considered based on the merits of the circumstances at hand.

[ariel]

As regard to the relative quality of Indian vs. British swords, one needs to remember that Indian swords were very heterogeneous: from superb quality to a very poor one. Even now we regularly see native blades of poor temper, haphazardous fullers, forging flaws and patches of burnt steel. Those were the weapons of the rank and file, whereas the high stratum enjoyed superb wootz, elegant decorations and tons of rubies on the handle (BTW, making holding them rather uncomfortable). Those were stored in special rooms and never were bared in anger. This is why we see quantities of them in the museums.
In contrast, industrial production of British swords was aimed at (and actually achieved) complete uniformity, solid quality and reliability. They were used without modifications by everybody.

Perhaps, this was why Indians wanted to have European blades and put fake markings on locally-made ones: the owner might not have an Assadulla, but would certainly have gotten ( or hoped to get) no lemon:-)

In might be amusing to know whether horrifying damages inflicted by the Indians on the Brits ( see references by Sirupate) were not in fact made by the old and retired 1796 blades, sharpened properly and struck hard, as conveyed by poor Lew Nolan :-)

[Jim McDougall]

"...Nolan was particularly interested in Nizams Irregular Horse. He had recently read a medical report of an engagement in which these troops had defeated a superior force of Rohillas and had been astonished by the havoc created by their swords.: heads and arm completely severed, hands cut off at a single blow, and legs above the knee. Was this the work of giants? or of some peculiar quality of the sword blade or its use? The answer surprised him. THE SWORDS TURNED OUT TO BE MERELY OLD BLADES, DISCARDED BY BRITISH DRAGOONS, cut to a razor edge and worn in wooden scabbards from which they were never drawn except in action. But Nolan may have given insufficient credit to these broad, curved spear point * blades the light cavalry sword of 1796. He inquired to the secret of the cavalrymans skill and was struck by the simplicity of the reply.
We never teach them any way sir, a sharp sword will cut in anyone's hand, said one of Nizams seasoned troopers, The lesson of a sharp sword was one that Nolan never forgot".

"Nolan Of Balaclava"
H. Moyse-Bartlett, London 1971 , p.121

* naturally the author is in error re: spear points.....these were referred to as 'hatchet points'.

[mahratt]

In might be amusing to know whether horrifying damages inflicted by the Indians on the Brits ( see references by Sirupate) were not in fact made by the old and retired 1796 blades, sharpened properly and struck hard, as conveyed by poor Lew Nolan :-)

Ariel, your own thinking - it's great! But perhaps you have other than your words have evidence? For example, citations from the books?
Because those who saw how the Indians used Talwar wrote the following:
«An effective thrust is much more easier learnt that drawing cut which makes the tulwar such a terribly effective weapon in the hand of the expert swordsman». The Earl of Cardigan The Cavalry of the Territorial Army, The Nineteenth Century and After, 1908.

And there are no words about the sabers of the model 1796 ;)

I'm sorry my bad english

[Helleri]

I thought Indian Crucible steel was tougher then many Euro Steels? wasn't that why it was being sent to England around 1795 for metallurgical analysis?

[sirupate]

An interesting point Mahratt, but in the case of John Ship he was using a 1796 Light Cavalry sabre which according to Ship the Gorkha Chieftain with his Tulwar; 'he nearly cut my poor twenty-fourther in pieces'

[Pukka Bundook]

I think Jim has it summed up pretty well.

The English swords were consistent, not as good as the best tulwar maybe, but much better than the worst! Therefore an object of desire for the lower Indian ranks who would otherwise be possibly stuck with one of the latter.
The exception was the 1796, as mentioned above, and a great favourite everywhere.

The key was the blade being Sharp though, as mentioned numerous times above, And the fact that a blade with more curve will slice better, particularly if the 'target' is festooned in multiple layers of cloth.

Much first -hand material could be added to Sirupate' interesting list, if we referenced the book "Sahib".
Time after time we see references to the native tulwar chopping off arms and legs at a blow, as well as slicing clean through a torso at one stroke.
These blows were sometimes described as delivered "with a hissing sound" ......in other words, the sword wielder was giving it all he had.(And That will also make a difference in how effective a cut is!!)

One more point re. how effective a sword may be, is the amount of training or use the individual has had. A person who has grown up wielding one will be more comfortable (and better) with it than a man trained in later years.

We know how the steel scabbard dulls the blade, but sometimes even tulwars in their wooden sheathes were worn "sharp side up" so as to keep the cutting edge as keen as possible.

It may be that though the English blades in the O.P. "would not cut butter", this problem could have been rectified easily with a good sharpening.
My own pocket knife can get dull at times. :-)

[ariel]

Yes. That's why I mentioned hard strike together with sharp blade. With these two conditions one can get lucky even if the sword is garage-made:-)

1796 was heavy, not as fast as shashka, but the steel quality was excellent and in the hands of a burly English lad it beat the hell out of every other sharp and pointy thing. This is why it was adopted ( with minor cosmetic modifications) by so many other armies. Kind of AK-47 of the 19th century:-)

[Jim McDougall]

I think Jim has it summed up pretty well.

The English swords were consistent, not as good as the best tulwar maybe, but much better than the worst! Therefore an object of desire for the lower Indian ranks who would otherwise be possibly stuck with one of the latter.
The exception was the 1796, as mentioned above, and a great favourite everywhere.

The key was the blade being Sharp though, as mentioned numerous times above, And the fact that a blade with more curve will slice better, particularly if the 'target' is festooned in multiple layers of cloth.

Much first -hand material could be added to Sirupate' interesting list, if we referenced the book "Sahib".
Time after time we see references to the native tulwar chopping off arms and legs at a blow, as well as slicing clean through a torso at one stroke.
These blows were sometimes described as delivered "with a hissing sound" ......in other words, the sword wielder was giving it all he had.(And That will also make a difference in how effective a cut is!!)

One more point re. how effective a sword may be, is the amount of training or use the individual has had. A person who has grown up wielding one will be more comfortable (and better) with it than a man trained in later years.

We know how the steel scabbard dulls the blade, but sometimes even tulwars in their wooden sheathes were worn "sharp side up" so as to keep the cutting edge as keen as possible.

It may be that though the English blades in the O.P. "would not cut butter", this problem could have been rectified easily with a good sharpening.
My own pocket knife can get dull at times. :-)


Richard, thank you so much for the kind note....and especially for reading my post!!! which indeed cites from a book. Your supportive comments are spot on!

[Mercenary]

I just wanted to know were there any mentions of the fact that the Indians valued European blades in general . As I understand it now, we do not have any references at all.
The links that prove the opposite opinion I posted above.

[Jim McDougall]

I just wanted to know were there any mentions of the fact that the Indians valued European blades in general . As I understand it now, we do not have any references at all.
The links that prove the opposite opinion I posted above.

I am unclear on this. You are looking for specific quotations which state that the Indians favored European blades?

With the General's sword of 1821 ('Gothic' hilt or three bar)you posted with the Indian blade.....it is quite understandable that he would prefer an Indian blade as this particular pattern was quite plagued with complaints. In Brian Robson's "Swords of the British Army" (1975) this dilemma is summed up describing their use in the Crimean war where blades bent or broke, and were generally inadequate. This was partly why the '1821' patterns' production was interrupted by around 1823 and did not resume until 1829.

With this reputation, and the fact that officers had more leeway in their choice of weapons, the General no doubt favored the Indian made blades over the questionable British ones...the rank and file had no choice.

As far as Indians 'favoring' or extolling the virtues of 'European' blades, I feel sure we can probably find a quote somewhere where this expressed verbatim, however the evidence of constant use of European blades would seem to suggest that they used them considerably..like them or not.

I think in Pant ("Indian Arms and Armor') it decribes Tipu Sahib as being quite fond of his 'ANDREA FERARA' sword, and with the German blades used these were termed 'Alemani' and again quite favored in Deccani context.
With the Mahratta, the adoption of the basket hilt form from Europeans to their traditional khanda and the use of European blades seem to have virtually cemented the term 'firangi' in place with the preponderance of these swords extant. So the swords known as 'alemani' and 'firangi', both representing foreign or European bladed swords seems prevalent......thus implying that the Indian's probably were 'OK' with European blades.

As for an exact quote to support this demonstrative evidence, it may take some time but perhaps can be found somewhere.......maybe in an ad in Indian media of the time merchandizing European blades :)

[ariel]

Jim,
Not to forget that Henry Lawrence was born in Ceylon, spent virtually all his life in India ( with the exception of a short stint in England) and even died at the siege of Lucknow.

His allegiance was impeccably British, but a sentiment toward all things Indian was very strong.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim,
Not to forget that Henry Lawrence was born in Ceylon, spent virtually all his life in India ( with the exception of a short stint in England) and even died at the siege of Lucknow.

His allegiance was impeccably British, but a sentiment toward all things Indian was very strong.


Good point! Still interesting that he used a British hilt when officers had a choice. In some cases I have seen British blades with Hindu basket hilts
It is hard to use these personal preferences to support broader sentiments, but as always, most interesting.

[Mercenary]

Dear Jim

Many thanks for so many information and your opinion.
But there is a bit difference between "using" European blades and "preference" ones.
My car is "Honda" but I prefer "Bentley". The fact that I am using "Honda" can tell us about what? I have not enough money, and only ))))))

[Jim McDougall]

Well made point Mercenary, and very good analogy.
I'd like to have a Ferrari but I drive an older jeep:)

As you say, the Indians certainly used European blades significantly, but probably did so out of convenience in most cases. I most cases trade blades were conveniently available but probably they preferred their own blades as a rule as they knew well what quality they put into them. It still does seem interesting that they used European markings to their own blades though.
Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

[mahratt]

With the Mahratta, the adoption of the basket hilt form from Europeans to their traditional khanda and the use of European blades seem to have virtually cemented the term 'firangi' in place with the preponderance of these swords extant. So the swords known as 'alemani' and 'firangi', both representing foreign or European bladed swords seems prevalent......thus implying that the Indian's probably were 'OK' with European blades.


Hi, Jim!

And how do you feel about the opinion of Rawson, who believes that the basket hilt form is of Indian origin?

"The Hindu Basket hilt was developed in the West Deccan round about 1500 AD. It is a formal development from the Old Indian, in that the fundamental pattern of grip, guard, seating process and pommel is preserved "

[Mercenary]

Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?
My "Honda" again - cheap but reliable.
It is not the watered blade. But not the "village" one. It is a normal quality and inexpensive European blade (counterfeit of cause).

[Pukka Bundook]

While I can't add anything off the top of my head about Indian Preferring foreign blades, I can say from a little experience that some of the lower quality (but old) Native blades are a bit shaky in quality, with the 'hot shuts' and the forging flaws and such, and I think I would like at least three at my disposal if going in to battle.

If I had time to re-read "Sahib", I am sure I would find reference to some Indian units preferring English blades.
It is hazy, but believe that they liked very much the Mole (British) blades, but re-hilted them in their native fashion, even though Mole supplied them with a 'tulwar' type hilt.

Please do not quote me on this, I will try and find it.

If we take the Pata sword, they are very often fitted with European blades.
This, as Jim has mentioned, does not mean they Did prefer such blades, but the evidence is powerful that such was the case, and for two reasons;
1,
These weapons are very often of high quality, so a Good blade would be chosen, Price would not dictate an inferior blade in such cases,
and 2,
The Pata was issued to the most skillful swordsmen, most highly trained.
One would not imagine training men to such high standards then giving them poor quality arms with which to go into battle, Especially as the rulers body-guard often carried these!
"Cheaping out" on bodyguard equipment never seems to have caught on, for some reason!

Jim, if involved in a thread, I always read all the posts, inc yours!!! :-)

Best ,

Richard.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thinking about it, is it not so, that when we look in the back mirror, we remember the European writings that the Indians wanted/prefered the European blades, and not the Indian writings about these blades?
European blades were at a time no doubt in fashion, so everyone would like to have a blade with an European inscription - fake or not. But this does not mean that the Indians did not/could not make high quality blades.

[Pukka Bundook]

Jens,

You are correct.
I meant in no way to infer that Indians could not make good blades.
The evidence is everywhere that they did make some Very fine blades indeed.

Richard.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi, Jim!

And how do you feel about the opinion of Rawson, who believes that the basket hilt form is of Indian origin?

"The Hindu Basket hilt was developed in the West Deccan round about 1500 AD. It is a formal development from the Old Indian, in that the fundamental pattern of grip, guard, seating process and pommel is preserved "

Actually, your note, as I highly respect your skills at research, made me think to reconfirm what I said. So I spent several hours with Pant, Rawson and Elgood:)
In Pant (p.49) he notes that Rawson indeed did state the basket hilt was of Indian origin.
"..it is probable that this development took place in the western Deccan about 1600AD and was promoted by contacts with European basket hilted swords".
I then went to Rawson, who indeed did discuss the pata and khanda (p.45) where he notes both of these straight blade swords were invented in the west Deccan and diffused into other regions by the Marathas.
Further, "...the Hindu basket hilt, a development of the old Indian, was foreshadowed in the hilts of the sukhelas illustrated in the miniatures of the Deccan sultanates".
Then on p,44 re:sukhelas
"...the hilts of the sukhelas shown in the miniatures from the sultanates are of varied forms and have the traditional circular Indian pommel with dome as the old Indian and Indo-Muslim hilts have, but they have a broad knuckle guard , NO DOUBT IMITATED FROM EUROPEAN EXAMPLES". (my caps).

Elgood ("Hindu Arms & Ritual", 2004, p.39) notes, "...the 'Nujum al Ulum' illustrates a Spanish or Portuguese sword of about 1570 with its distinctive European hilt, and describing it as 'A GOOD SWORD'. "

Elgood (op.cit. p.39) notes, ",,,giving arms as diplomatic gifts was commonplace and it seems a reasonable assumption *that European blades were reaching Vijayanagara via the Portuguese on the coast from the beginning of the 16th c. and judging from the number mounted on the best worked hilts in the kingdom, THEY WERE MUCH APPRECIATED AT COURT".

* this assumption is indeed reasonable with the number of European blades found in the Tanjore katars.

Pant (1980, p.61),
"...Rawson calls dhup, sukhela as the same weapon and says that if the blade is of foreign origin the term phirangi is applied to such a sword. The blades of this type were continuously imported throughout the late 16th c into the 17th by the European factories on the west coast .
It is probable that the European blades were FAVORED first because their form was long familiar in the Deccan and because there was little good iron and steel working in this part of India (ref. Rawson p85)".

Pant (op.cit. p.42) re: firangi,
"..literally it means 'the Portuguese' since it was first introduced by them in India but later on it was successfully adopted by the Marathas".

So apparently, the khanda/firangi basket hilt did in fact ORIGINATE in India..but the point was that it was developed from the old Indian sword, but INFLUENCED by the European styles.

Thank you Mahratt for prompting this recheck on this detail !

[Jim McDougall]

Richard, I know you do, that is one thing I appreciate most about you!!!!:)

Concerning the quality of Indian blades, as always there are varying aspects which derive from period, region and many other factors . In my last post I tried to include some published notations on the favor of European blades, but also found these comments:

I had noted the so called alemani swords as representing the powerful number of German blades in the Deccan with the mercenary forces there.
In Rawson (p.48) it states that "...Hyder and Tipu seem not to have relied much on the import of foreign blades , though some were in use in their armies",
It does note further that, "..the quality, particularly the aesthetic quality of swords of this period are not high". Indicating that the locally produced swords were as he describes, clumsy and of variable proportion.

Also, I had presumed that the term 'alemani' in the manner of 'firangi' meant this was a German bladed sword. Stone (1934, p.6) describes as :...an Indian sabre LIKE the old German hussar sword".
Here it seems the term refers to a sabre of like form, not necessarily with German blade.

Turning to the derogatory comment from Grose in the original post here which includes British blades and I checked the reference in Pant (p43).
Re: dhup sukhela and firangi blades.
"...There is no doubt that the English blades were bought by the Marathas, the factory correspondence shows they were highly unsatisfactory and were progressively in less demand" (Rawson p.87).

This is somewhat curious as Elgood (p.202) notes:
"...Terry describes in 1612 how the Indian swords are very sharp, but far for want of skill in those who temper them, will break rather than bend".
"..DeLaet comments that local shamshirs were often badly tempered and that therefore was a demand for European swords".

* this seems to apply further north as shamshirs are mentioned

Further p202 (Elgood)
"Bronson has argued that Indian blades were brittle and unstatisfactory, finding confirmation in the numerous European blades sold in India and fitted to India hilts".
"..long firangi blades became a STATUS SYMBOL in the 17th century and ENGLISH swords would bow an become straight again. In 1660s Thevenot remarks that Indian blades are too brittle and the good ones come from England".

Interesting perspective revealing the many points of view held by historians and contemporaries and recounted by the most known writers on the topic .

[Helleri]

Could it be that the high quality Indian blades were superior to the British ones specifically. But that in general (excepting the instance of a British blade) Euro blades were largely preferred?

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for all the leg-work in looking up these references Jim!

I see no problem with these differing views of foreign and 'home grown' swords.
It could well be that a country supplying India with good blades in the 17th C. may not be doing so in the 19th century, and visa -versa.

Also, India throughout several centuries has produced excellent blades, But! not maybe Everywhere at the same time, and not always for all ranks.

These things happen in most countries, European or not. :-)

RE bending;
I had a painful lesson in this some time ago;

Had purchased what had been a lovely N. Indian sword, but had been 'cleaned' in an acid bath. (not good)
It had a bend in the blade, and I straightened it over my knee. To my surprise, it straightened out very easily, Too easily as it happened, and had a slight bend the Other way.
I think you know what's coming.
Yes, I nudged it back a little and it fell in two pieces!
The steel looked crystalized and of a very fine grain.
I still remember how I felt at the time. (!)
Anyhow, I contacted a very clever chap in the Czech republic, (who wished to remain anonymous) and he re-joined the blade so one could not tell it was ever broken.
He said the hardness on the Rockwell scale was about 56.

Richard.

[estcrh]

* this assumption is indeed reasonable with the number of European blades found in the Tanjore katars.


The Met has some very nice katar that are described as having European blades, several others appear to have them as well but it is not mentioned in the description.

[ariel]

We need to be precise in our definition of the question: are we asking whether European bladed were USED of PREFERRED?

The USE is indisputable. The PREFERENCE is unprovable: it depended on personal circumstances of the owner ( individual or his sovereign). We cannot get into heads of people dead for 200-300 years. Limited number of individual opinions or testimonies cannot reflect prevailing attitude of the entire society. Moreover, such individual snippets are reasonably evenly divided between pros and cons. This is a dead end.

Were European blades POPULAR in India? But of course. Wre Indian blades popular among the Europeans? Not very. Was it because of their quality or simply because EIC or (later) The Crown supplied their British soldiers with regulation, British-made, weapons? Probably both.

The reference to Rawson re. Basket Hilt misses the point: it is a mix of a modified Old Indian hilt and a European D-guard. It is the latter that largely transformed the older version into a new pattern. Elgood discussed ~ 12th century ( have no book nearby) temple depiction of warriors wielding swords with D-guards ( i.e. well before the contact with the Portugese), but doubts them because there are no ancient actual examples. I am a bit uneasy with that, but can't argue with the fact: no similar feature prior to 16th century is known. In general, I would hesitate using Rawson as the final evidence: his book is full of statements that are no longer considered valid by the contemporary body of knowledge. Suffice it to say that he did not know the difference between wootz and mechanical damascus. He should get full credit as the author of the first systematic book on Indian swords, but his materials and conclusions are significantly outdated and cannot be viewed as 100% reliable without further confirmation. Well, this is the fate of almost every book :-)

[Jim McDougall]

You are most welcome Richard! It was as always very much my pleasure.:)

Actually I think Ariel has summed this up perfectly in his last post.
The differences between use and preference as well as the diversity of one of the most complex subcontinents in so many aspects. Indeed we cannot know what was in the minds people in this hugely broad spectrum over considerable time and vast regions.
I know the question was directed at finding written evidence in the literature but again , it will vary considerably depending on circumstances as shown.

[Mercenary]

Indeed we cannot know what was in the minds people in this hugely broad spectrum over considerable time and vast regions.
I can not agree. As for me, I know what was in the mind of admiral Angria in Maharashtra in the beginning of 18th :-)

[Jens Nordlunde]

I think Ariel is right.
Someone told me years ago, that my European logic way of thinking was wrong. The Indians did not think in the same way. It took me very long time to understand this, and although I am far from sure that I have understood it fully, I think that I have understood part of it.
The logic we use in the western part of the world to day, can not be compared to the logic the Indians would have used centuries ago.
Their religious tiers were strong, and the supersticion was very strong.
We sit in our sofas in front of the TV, and try to decide what the Indians thought centuries ago - do you think that is research?

[Jim McDougall]

I can not agree. As for me, I know what was in the mind of admiral Angria in Maharashtra in the beginning of 18th :-)

That is wonderful! I very much admire your confidence in the narrative by Mr. Grose, and it seems quite apparent that Admiral Angria did not like English blades, or that was what was perceived by the narrator or perhaps whatever source he used (Im not sure if Grose was there when he said this).

I think Jens explained 'perception' from culture to culture if not in different times alone extremely well. I have personally always been most impressed by Jens' profoundly restrained approach to research and fact finding and realizing the boundaries we must often recognize as we proceed .

[Mercenary]

I think Ariel is right.
Someone told me years ago, that my European logic way of thinking was wrong. The Indians did not think in the same way. It took me very long time to understand this, and although I am far from sure that I have understood it fully, I think that I have understood part of it.
The logic we use in the western part of the world to day, can not be compared to the logic the Indians would have used centuries ago.
Their religious tiers were strong, and the supersticion was very strong.
We sit in our sofas in front of the TV, and try to decide what the Indians thought centuries ago - do you think that is research?
That is why I prefer the descriptions of eyewitnesses. Preferably the cross descriptions.

[ariel]

I think we have flogged this horse enough. The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.

[Mercenary]

That is wonderful! I very much admire your confidence in the narrative by Mr. Grose, and it seems quite apparent that Admiral Angria did not like English blades, or that was what was perceived by the narrator or perhaps whatever source he used (Im not sure if Grose was there when he said this).

I think Jens explained 'perception' from culture to culture if not in different times alone extremely well. I have personally always been most impressed by Jens' profoundly restrained approach to research and fact finding and realizing the boundaries we must often recognize as we proceed .
I am very appreciate for your excellent search through the secondary sources and good generalization of all known information. I agree with Jens too.
But I only wanted to know if some of the travelers or authors of the court chronicles right mentioned that Indians prefered the European blades. I haven't been able to find it.

[Mercenary]

I think we have flogged this horse enough. The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.
We will "flog the horse" after publication one more questionable article based on the wretched sources. In some cases it is not enough to write simply "in fact" sagely.

[Lee]

From our rarely read rules page:Be nice and respect your fellow members ... If you disagree with another member's point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. Civility and respect towards other participants are unconditionally expected.We appear to have recently accumulated several threads with persistent arguments. Members need to be able to state their on-topic opinions and observations without being subjected to undue sarcasm or riposte. If you disagree with opinions and observations of another member, state such and your reasons in a non-personal manner. Ask for 'references' and further proofs of others if you must, but once only in a very polite manner.

[Mercenary]

flogged this horse enough
the satisfaction of every reasonable person

Many thanks, Lee. I have understood. But I will hope that moderators will react not only to my posts with answers.

[Roland_M]

Why, if they had such high regard for their own blades, would they add spurious European marks and inscriptions to imply 'quality' ?

A good question and i think, that an european blade has an exotic flair for an Indian warrior.
What i can say from my own collection is, that a well made pattern welded Indian sword easily reaches european quality in toughness and flexibility but with a higher sharpness.
Many of the famous Indian wootz-blades (woodgrain wootz) are trash from the technical point of view compared to european blades or well made Indian pattern welded steel.

Roland

[Jens Nordlunde]

I find that Roland comes with an interesting view on the subject.
The excotic interest for foreign blades.
The foreign armies did win a lot of battles in India, so their blades must have been better.
Only later the Indians found out, that it was not only the blades - but the battle decipline/orginasitation that mattered.

[Mercenary]

If not good with the references, let's get statistically. How many Indian sabres and swords with European blades do we know? I think 20-30 percent of the total. And what the Indians preferred?

[Iain]

If not good with the references, let's get statistically. How many Indian sabres and swords with European blades do we know? I think 20-30 percent of the total. And what the Indians preferred?

Percentage and preference cannot necessarily be correlated when availability is a factor.

In any case, given that references have been something of a theme in this thread, I think a somewhat more empirical evaluation is required than a guesstimate of 20-30%. 20% of how many examples?

[Mercenary]

Percentage and preference cannot necessarily be correlated when availability is a factor.

In any case, given that references have been something of a theme in this thread, I think a somewhat more empirical evaluation is required than a guesstimate of 20-30%. 20% of how many examples?
I don't know. Everyone is speculating and I began the same. :shrug:

[Iain]

I don't know. Everyone is speculating and I began the same. :shrug:

Taking an approach grounded in extant examples is never a bad thing and worth pursuing. I hope you can take the time to put some numbers together. I for one always enjoy reading primary research.

However, beyond the pure figures of European and none European blades it is necessary to consider factors such as:

a) region

b) the European trade links in place within that region

c) Blade production in the region which could influence the potential market for European imports

d) Political relationships with European trade partners within that region

And of course a host of other factors. I really dislike the sort of generalization such as "what the Indians preferred" given the size of the India not just in population but diversity. A question of the type proposed at the start of this thread requires a certain level of nuance.

Certainly I and I would hope the majority of readers and participants of this thread, advocate a grounded study of extant examples over the single, anecdote that started this thread. Although certainly using period accounts as supportive material.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Very good Iain, but there is another thing which should be taken up as well, and that is, that many blades were used for generations due to family threads - very important to them.

[ariel]

Iain and Jens,

You put your collective finger right on the proverbial button: work of that sort requires solid acquaintance with principles of methodology of scientific analysis. Without it people can describe material objects, but are incapable of formulating answerable questions, interpreting existing information , analyzing their own data and reaching defensible conclusions.

[estcrh]

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled "Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687" By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.

Between the 14th and the 17th century, the Deccan plateau of south-central India was home to a series of important and highly cultured Muslim courts. Subtly blending elements from Iran, West Asia, southern India, and northern India, the arts produced under these sultanates are markedly different from those of the rest of India and especially from those produced under Mughal patronage. This publication, a result of a 2008 symposium held at The Metropolitan Museum of Art, investigates the arts of Deccan and the unique output in the fields of painting, literature, architecture, arms, textiles, and carpet.

"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iWNHYID4WqAC&pg=PA218#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Mercenary]

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled "Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687" By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.



"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iWNHYID4WqAC&pg=PA218#v=onepage&q&f=false
Estcrh, many thanks! Very good article. The real research. I admit everything that was said there :-)

[estcrh]

Estcrh, many thanks! Very good article. The real research. I admit everything that was said there :-)

Yes, many interesting facts and quotes, how about this one.

[fernando]

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled "Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687" By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.



"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iWNHYID4WqAC&pg=PA218#v=onepage&q&f=false
Great link, great info. Thank you so much for sharing.

[ariel]

Estcrh:

Many thanks for the article. Finally, we have a well-researched review for our information and education. No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk. This article neatly resolves all issues raised in this discussion.


I was unaware of this article and wish to express my gratitude to you.

[Mercenary]

No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk.
Dear Ariel
I totally agree with you. This was enough:
If I had to choose a sword for a battle, my absolute preference would be for a European one rather than Indian. Interestingly, the Indians thought the same: they mass -produced blades with fake European markings as a sign of the highest quality.
In contrast, industrial production of British swords was aimed at (and actually achieved) complete uniformity, solid quality and reliability
The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.

[Jim McDougall]

Well done Estcrh!!!:)

Those lines perfectly respond to the original theme here. The rest of the discussion neatly describes the variables surrounding it, but this is an excellent on topic resolution.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

I also vote for the permanent placement of this article in the Forum Library.




Good initiative, Ibrahim!!!

[estcrh]

Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Ibrahiim, agreed and a good idea!!!

[ariel]

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

[Helleri]

Wow...this really digs into it. What I like about it the most is it puts it in the context of free market competition. A lot of discussion on this tends to put forward the idea that every one at a certain time felt a certain way for a very specific reason. But these were people. They were just as dynamic in their thoughts and sentiments as us.

It reminds me of this one time at the flea when I sold someone a purse I made. They said what they really appreciate about it is that it's American made. And the only response I had for her was "yeah, but my tools are made in China". And we were both sort of like 'it can't be helped'. And we both just kind of smiled and shrugged. It is what it is....Point being I think that it's easy to put these peoples lives and culture into a narrative and forget that our situation with imports vs. domestic and how we might treat it or feel about it is nothing new.

But beyond the outlying thrust of this article. There are a lot of small interesting and helpful things in this article. Looks like we could get as lot of good terminology from this. for instance the possibility of referring to imported blades into India as "Jahaji". Much like we already refer to the ornate gilding on some pieces as "Koftgari".

I am sure this is going to be one of those reads where every time you go through it again you find another layer of value to it.

[fernando]

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!
Ariel, you have PM.

[dralin23]

hi guys,( and girls..Tatyana)
here are one of my latest purchases. it is one of the swords form the wagner collection. an very beautifull katar sword with an phantastic solingen blade. it was an very old dream from me to own some time such an sword. the blade was marked at the one side with " in solingen" and at the other side with the name
" knegt" i asked in the solingen sword museum for more informations about these smith. they answerd me that these sword comes from an old solingen swordmakerfamily. one member of these familiy was Peter Knecht who worked in the middle of the 17th. ct. and the signature and the pattern form these sword show all features that it comes from these date and also maybe from these important smith.
for me it is unbelievable that these blades find in these time the way to india. it would be intrested to know how much was the price for such an blade in germany in these time and what was the value for the same blade in india.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Congratulations :-)
I am glad that you got it - and I am only a wee bit envious - but only a bit :-).

It is a great piece, and as katars are close to my heart, I do understand why you bought it :-).

Very good pictures btw.

Jens

[ariel]

Beautiful! Do not know how much you paid for it, but it is worth every penny.
Enjoy it!!!

[fernando]

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!
Chapter finally extracted from a large PDF book. As it contains vital information for sword collectors in general, it is already included in the European section 'Classics'. Ian will see that it will also be held in the Ethno 'Classics'.

A new thread for the purpose was started:


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=197808#post197808

[CharlesS]

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687 By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.



"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iWNHYID4WqAC&pg=PA218#v=onepage&q&f=false

I was lucky enough to see that exhibit when it was at the Met. I would highly recommend that book on a number of different levels above and beyond just the topic at hand here. I know museum books can be expensive years after the exhibit, and I have no idea about the availability of this one, but if you have any interest in Indian arms, especially South Indian, it will be a terrific reference.

[Jim McDougall]

hi guys,( and girls..Tatyana)
here are one of my latest purchases. it is one of the swords form the wagner collection. an very beautifull katar sword with an phantastic solingen blade. it was an very old dream from me to own some time such an sword. the blade was marked at the one side with " in solingen" and at the other side with the name
" knegt" i asked in the solingen sword museum for more informations about these smith. they answerd me that these sword comes from an old solingen swordmakerfamily. one member of these familiy was Peter Knecht who worked in the middle of the 17th. ct. and the signature and the pattern form these sword show all features that it comes from these date and also maybe from these important smith.
for me it is unbelievable that these blades find in these time the way to india. it would be intrested to know how much was the price for such an blade in germany in these time and what was the value for the same blade in india.


Dralin, this is one of the most enticing examples I have seen in some time of these Indian katar/swords with this example seeming to correspond to Deccani forms (naturally I would defer to Jens for more accurate details) .
It seems to be most unusual for these to be open with arm bands rather than with the gauntlet typical of pata.

I am most curious about the information from Solingen on the Knecht attribution to 17th century. All the resources I have (Gardner, Boeheim, Demmin, Kinman, Wallace Coll, Bezdek et al) indicate the earliest Knecht was c. 1770 in Solingen, and Wallace Coll. shows (p. 268) that the family were trading in swords rather than mfg them.
However, in my opinion the name stamp and accompanying marks including the anchor and others including IN SOLINGEN, look very much 17th century .
Therefore perhaps this blade is to an unrecorded (at least in the sources I note) example of this maker.

It is known that in the early 17th century the Indian market was profoundly inundated with European blades, with other Solingen examples such as the well known ANDREA FERARA represented at confirmed dates c. 1620s so this may be a most important blade, the magnificent example it is mounted in not withstanding!!

Very well done Dralin, congratulations, and thank you for a most valuable entry and sharing it here with us!

All best regards
Jim

[estcrh]

Dralin, this is one of the most enticing examples I have seen in some time of these Indian katar/swords with this example seeming to correspond to Deccani forms (naturally I would defer to Jens for more accurate details) .
It seems to be most unusual for these to be open with arm bands rather than with the gauntlet typical of pata.

Jim, I was wondering if the "arm bands" may have been added at a later date? The hilt as well could be older than the blade as in this type of katar existing blades could be easily removed and a new one inserted as the blade is just riveted in place. A very nice example though.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, I was wondering of the "arm bands" may have been added at a later date? The hilt as well could be older than the blade as in this type of katar existing blades could be easily removed and a new one inserted as the blade is just riveted in place. A very nice example though.


Well observed !! and absolutely that may be the case, and I remain perplexed at this inscription .
Even looking at the Wallace Collection catalog, there are many very old hilts paired with later blades, lending to the idea of either heirloom hilts being refurbished with newer blades or any number of ersatz possibilities.

[estcrh]

How long is your katar?

[Jens Nordlunde]

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.
The 'arm bands' could very well be added later, and would have added a lot to the stability when the sword was used.

What would interest me to know is, if the seller told from where in India the sword came, and why he thinks so?

Jens

[fernando]

... it was an very old dream from me to own some time such an sword...
I have never dreamed of this rather spetacular example, but i wouldn't mind being awake while having it with me :cool: .

[Ian]

Thanks to Fernando, a PDF file of Robert Elgood's article that was mentioned earlier in this thread is now available via the Classics Thread at the top of the Ethnographic Arms and Armor Home Page. Click on Classics, scroll down to the bottom of the list, click on the link and you will find the PDF file in the first post.

Or just click here if you want to go to Fernando's post directly http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=197808#post197808

Ian.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks to Fernando, a PDF file of Robert Elgood's article that was mentioned earlier in this thread is now available via the Classics Thread at the top of the Ethnographic Arms and Armor Home Page. Click on Classics, scroll down to the bottom of the list, click on the link and you will find the PDF file in the first post.

Or just click here if you want to go to Fernando's post directly http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=197808#post197808

Ian.


Fernando, thank you very much for placement of this most valuable article and the cross references. It is great to see these kinds of details being situated in a research oriented system here, and know that these resources and our archived threads may be relied upon in future researches.

[Jim McDougall]

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.
The 'arm bands' could very well be added later, and would have added a lot to the stability when the sword was used.

What would interest me to know is, if the seller told from where in India the sword came, and why he thinks so?

Jens

Well noted Jens, and as you say, it makes good sense that if this katar hilt was to have a full length sword blade, then the arm bands would be essential. In the pata, these same kinds of bands are riveted at the top of the hilt to secure the forearm, while the hand holds the transverse grip.

[estcrh]

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.
You would have a better idea about this than I do. I was just assuming that the hilt was not originally made for this blade which may have been added at a later date. As you say, the blade may actually be older than the hilt.

[dralin23]

hi there,
sorry tho the late raplay, but i was the last some days to busy to visit the threads in the forum.
yes, i think also that these armbands are an later aditional feature. these bands was made from silver and i think also that they should give the upperarm more stiffnes when these katar was used in the fight.
the length of these blade is 80cm , and the wide of the blade before the hilt is 34 mm.
i was also searching for more informations about the knecht family.
i found very different informations about the time of their working.
the name "knegt" is an older example of the name "Knecht" . the name "Knecht"
is more modern.
as i wrote, i was looking in the www. and also in the book from stafan Kinman about european makers of edged weapons and their marks. i found no one exampel from an blade with the name "Knegt".
i was asking directly in the "Solingen Swordmuseum" as i hope that i found something more informations about the maker from these blade there.
the answer was that these kind of solingen stamp with the anchor was made untill the 17.th.ct. and the name knegt is an indicate that it was made from one member of the knecht family.
i hope i will find sometime an other exampel with an identic mark.
i´m happy about it!! it is now one of my hairloms in the collection.

[Jim McDougall]

hi there,
sorry tho the late raplay, but i was the last some days to busy to visit the threads in the forum.
yes, i think also that these armbands are an later aditional feature. these bands was made from silver and i think also that they should give the upperarm more stiffnes when these katar was used in the fight.
the length of these blade is 80cm , and the wide of the blade before the hilt is 34 mm.
i was also searching for more informations about the knecht family.
i found very different informations about the time of their working.
the name "knegt" is an older example of the name "Knecht" . the name "Knecht"
is more modern.
as i wrote, i was looking in the www. and also in the book from stafan Kinman about european makers of edged weapons and their marks. i found no one exampel from an blade with the name "Knegt".
i was asking directly in the "Solingen Swordmuseum" as i hope that i found something more informations about the maker from these blade there.
the answer was that these kind of solingen stamp with the anchor was made untill the 17.th.ct. and the name knegt is an indicate that it was made from one member of the knecht family.
i hope i will find sometime an other exampel with an identic mark.
i´m happy about it!! it is now one of my hairloms in the collection.

As indicated in my earlier post, the spelling of Knegt is in my view the more archaic form of the name which became much better known as the family of purveyors of swords much later.
The style of lettering, the anchor and other accompanying marks suggest this is indeed a very old blade, and which was joined with this katar hilt with the arm bands added as noted to add support.

It is good to see the Kinman reference being noted, as this is one of the most useful references to come into the literature on blade markings for many years. I was pretty sure if the KNEGT was not listed there it would not be among all the other now long venerated sources, which cross checked proved true.

This sword certainly would seem to me to be a Deccani example, as this katar style most closely resembles those forms, and this weapon would have been used in sweeping, slashing type attacks, thus the bracing of the arm bands.

[Miguel]

I doubt that the hilt is older than the blade, to my opinion it is rather the opposite.
The 'arm bands' could very well be added later, and would have added a lot to the stability when the sword was used.

What would interest me to know is, if the seller told from where in India the sword came, and why he thinks so?

Jens

Having looked at various designs of Katar hilts I think that this hilt may well be a 17th C one and that the forearm support bands rather than being an add on are a replacement for the original bands which would have been of a finer quality than the ones shown fitted now. Just a thought.
Miguel