Curious Moro blade

[Ian]

This one just finished. Odd blade. Perhaps the winner can enlighten us as to what it is called.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6612011401

[themorningstar]

it's a sundang.....

[Ian]

Of course, how could I not have remembered that? :D Thanks morningstar.

[Alam Shah]

Hmm...I don't think it's a sundang.
Sundang looks like a Moro (Maguindanao/Maranao) kris. ;)
This hilt is a barong hilt, but the blade, not the typical leaf-shaped profile. :confused:

[Rick]

Agreed Alam Shah , but it's still a sundang .... ;) :D

[ariel]

What is the definition of sundang, then?

[Rick]

Sorry Ariel , I'm on a long overdue vacation ; I'll be serious when I get home . :D :D

[Bill]

Yakan, wish I had noticed it.

[Spunjer]

What is the definition of sundang, then?

sundang: widely accepted term for sword in the philippines from aparri to sulu...

[Buwaya]

Yakan, wish I had noticed it.
What makes you think Yakan?

[BSMStar]

Maybe Jim Bowie was in the area and lost it... then it got rehilted. :D :D :D

Its one for the books. :confused:

[LabanTayo]

i'm curious too.....:):)

[nechesh]

i'm curious too.....:):)

Then it must be a sundang! :D

[zelbone]

Yakan, wish I had noticed it.

hmmm....been to Basilan lately, and know something we don't know ;) ?

[themorningstar]

it's yakan???

yakan junggayan sundang???
junggayan yakan sundang???
sundang yakan junggayan???


NEW CATERGORY!!!!!


hehehe...

[Battara]

I still think it is a floor wax. (SNL :D )

[VANDOO]

IT WOULD BE A GOOD PHILIPPINE ENTRY FOR THE STEAK KNIVES OF THE WORLD CATAGORY :D THE HANDLE IS NICE AND TRADITIONAL BUT THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING HOMEMADE BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN A PROFESHINAL SWORD OR KNIFE MAKER. OF COURSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL THE QUALITY OF THE WORKMANSHIP OF THE BLADE FROM THE PICTURES BUT I SUSPECT IT WAS MOSTLY MADE BY STOCK REMOVAL WITH LITTLE OR NO FORGEING WW2 OR LATER. JUST A GUESS FROM THE GUT :rolleyes:

[LabanTayo]

vandoo,
i havent received the barong yet, so i cant say much yet, but you can see strong lamenation lines throughout the blade in the pictures.

[VANDOO]

I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE BLADE, EITHER WAY IT IS A UNIQUE VARIATION OF FORM WORTHY OF ADDING TO THE MIX OF PHILIPPINO/ MORO WEAPONS IN A COLLECTION. PERHAPS MORE SIMULAR EXAMPLES MAY SHOW UP LATER AND MORE INFORMATION ON THE FORM CAN BE GATHERED. CONGRADULATIONS ON THE MYSTERY KNIFE :D I WILL LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR OPINION OF IT WHEN IT IS RECEIVED.

[LabanTayo]

well,
i received the weird barong. i cleaned and etched it. it has a swirly pattern, definetely forged. the spine is 3/8" thick.

my uneducated conclusion:

its a yakan jungayyan sundang. :D

[themorningstar]

woohoo!!!
told ya so....

yakan junggayan sundang......

[zelbone]

Well....

....after handling this particular sword all I can say is that whoever forged this weapon, knew what he was doing and knew what he was making. It moves like a murderous beast....and that's a good thing ;)

There's no need to classify this one....it speaks for itself.

[Mark]

I still think it is a floor wax. (SNL :D )

::snort!!:: :D

[BSMStar]

I do not speak the language, but... yakan junggayan sundang must mean, “old Moro head whacker.” It's a beast indeed!

I do not know about it being a floor wax, more like a floor wax remover.. but you got to crack that sucker just right or you'll lose more floor than wax. :D :D :D

[Ian]

The blade below has the same curious "neck" at the ricasso as the original subject of this post. The pictures attached here are an example from the island of Sumbawa in the Indoensian archipelago -- Sumbawa lies between Lombok and Flores, just to the north of Sumba.

This is a heavy large knife/short sword that has seen some use. Primarily a chopper that could serve as a general purpose tool and a defensive arm. The blade is laminated and has a prominent hardened edge that appears to have been heat treated. Nicely made blade with a razor-shape edge. I've included a couple of pictures to show the blade and its temper line.

OAL = 20 1/4 in.
Blade = 14 3/4 in.
Hilt = 6 in.
Blade thickness just in front of hilt = 9/32 in.
Blade thickness at maximum width = 1/8 in.
Maximum width of blade = 1 5/8 in.

It seems that the original subject of this post is related to the style shown here, and is perhaps a blade from Sumbawa that was remounted in Moroland. As such, it is probably not a true Moro weapon, but an interesting hybrid.

Ian.

[VVV]

Ian,

I am a bit sceptical to that the featured neck is a sign of Sumbawa?
I have 3 different variations of Parang Sumbawa and none of them have that neck.
In van Z p. 135 you can see two examples of a more regular kind of Parang Sumbawa blade that also resembles the blades of mine.

Michael

PS But your Parang definetely looks like Sumbawa with that hilt and scabbard. It's just the neck on your Parang that's unusual IMHO.

[Ian]

Michael:

I agree. The Sumbawa examples in van Zonnefeld's book do have different blades. But scanning his book, I cannot find an example of a similar blade attributed elsewhere, yet I have seen several of these same blade styles attributed to "Indonesia" over the years that I've collected blades from SE Asia. Never traced down a more precise geographic origin until this one.

The "Sumbawa" attribution came from the seller who seems to know a bit about SE Asia. As you say, the hilt and scabbard resemble Sumbawa work, but the blade could have been made elsewhere in Indonesia -- perhaps Sumba or even Lombok. The quality of forging of the blade is very good, but the finish is rough and shows grind marks. Above average "village" quality, I would say, so not likely to have come far from Sumbawa.

Ian.

[Ian]

One other thing I would add in relation to the original subject of this thread and the Sumbawa (?) blade I show is the apparent similarity of the edges. The pictured item on eBay shows evidence of a hardened edge, which may have been inserted (as many Moro weapons show, perhaps in imitation of Chinese methods) or heat-treated (which is less commonly seen on Moro weapons).

I'm fairly confident that the edge on my sword/knife has been heat-treated differentially because there is evidence of lamination within the hardened area, and there is an obvious narrow transition line between the hardened edge and the body of the blade.

If the new owner of the eBay item were to clean and etch that blade, I think he would find evidence of differential heat-treatment also. IMO this is an unusual finding on Moro pieces and would tend to confirm the use of a blade made elsewhere.

Ian.

[Ian]

On looking through van Zonneveld again, there are three illustrations of knives from Sumbawa on p. 74 (figures 281-283) that each show the narrow neck feature. These are the only examples of this feature that I can find in van Z. after looking through the book several times.

Another reference source by Donn F. Draeger, The Weapons & Fighting Arts of Indonesia, offers some further possibilities for this style of blade. In Figure 60, Basic types of Javanese knife and sword blades (p. 100), he has a drawing of a larbango which has a long narrow neck and upswept blade. This is the closest example I've seen so far to the odd Moro blade at the top of this post.

Elsewhere in his book, Draeger shows several knives from the Celebes that also feature a narrow neck: the Bajau parang (Fig. 166, p. 213) which resembles the blade of my Sumbawa knife; and several examples from the Toradja people, including the labo topang, piso, and piso lampakan (Fig. 168, p. 215) and an ublakas or parang upatjara (Fig. 169, p.216).

None of the these knives mentioned in Draeger are included in van Zonneveld's book.

[zelbone]

I have to disagree with you, Ian. I've handled this sword and I seriously doubt that the blade was manufactured outside the Philippines. There are other Moro swords besides the kampilan, kris, barung, panabas, pira, bangkung, janap, and gayang. Most swords were made on a custom basis and the original owner probably had this particular one made to fit his fighting style. In fact, to me it handles better than your typical barung.

I see where your coming from of the similarities to swords from Sumbawa with the narrow neck feature. It may be a rarity on a Moro sword, but isn't unheard of among other Filipino swords. There are several narrow necked swords found all across the Philippine archipeligo. Some of these include the plamanko, certain sansibars, binakokos, a few Batangas espadas, a type of bolo from Bicol, and those ubiquitous "talibons" from Leyte and Samar. Here are a few narrow necked sundang from the Philippines to compare to.

[Ian]

Good to hear from you. Rare Moro blade forms are always going to be hard to pin down as to their origins I guess.

Of the examples you posted, I think only the top one is of a truly similar style, with the clear "cut out" segment and the parallel edges of the blade near the hilt. Interesting that it is found on a Visayan knife. In fact, that particular blade looks very similar to a Sulawesi badek pictured in van Zonneveld (p. 27, no. 24) but that one has a Bugis hilt that is obviously different from your example.

Perhaps this "cut out" blade style arose elsewhere (Java, Sulawesi, the Lesser Sundas) but was incorporated into the Moro and Visayan armamentaria as a rare form. You might like to check whether larbango (Java) is a term used for a Moro weapon -- just as bangkung (Bugis), jimpul (Kenyah, Sea Dyak) have been borrowed from other ethnic groups to describe weapons used by the Moro.

One last question and I'll let this one rest. Since you have handled this particular item, is the hardened edge inserted (in the usual Moro way) or differentially heat treated?

A picture of the etched blade and edge would be nice to see. ;)

Ian.

[Ian]

Just finished on eBay. This is a sword length Sumbawa example, again with the cut out ricasso feature.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7407963143

Ian.

[VVV]

I also noticed it when we were discussing.
Isn't that the same seller as for the one you posted?

Michael

[Ian]

Yes, it is the same seller Michael.

I also noticed it when we were discussing.
Isn't that the same seller as for the one you posted?

Michael

[VVV]

That's what I thought.
Below are my three Sumbawa sword variations.
Also I have enclosed a Sumbawa knife next to a well known Sumatran knife (the top one is Sumbawa).
I have of course seen more Sumbawa swords than those but none before with that kind of pronounced, sharp cut, parallell neck as those recently sold by that specific seller.
Maybe it's a local village variation or made by the same person considering they come from the same source?
On Indonesian knives however that kind of sharp cut neck could be found in different regions.

Michael