Indian Swords with downward curving blades

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone,
I would welcome your comments and if possible the correct Indian names for these weapons. It is possible that they may be Nepalese but I think that they are Indian swords with a blade style adopted from the Gurkhas, I find it strange that the Indians who have given names to all their weapons have not given these weapons a particular name which leads me to think that they also used the name Kukri. I think that the decorated item was made for Religious or Ceremonial occasions or for the Tourist trade. The plain item is a fighting weapon and has a blade stamp which I am also hoping someone may be able to translate. The overall length of the plain one is 22 ins with a blade length of 16.5 ins and width of 1.5 ins, the dimensions of the decorated one are overall length 20.25 ins, blade length 16 ins and width 3.5 ins. Thanking you in advance.
Miguel

[Emanuel]

Here is some information on this type of khukri:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9718

Your top one is indeed for the tourist trade, albeit the early-20th century variety, so it's still old.

The bottom one looks more like the fighting kind.

Emanuel

[ariel]

Isn't the lower one a Sossun Pata?

[Emanuel]

Semantics, but no.
It has a cho/kaudi, so it's a khukri :)

Here are more:
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=81936&postcount=9

[Jim McDougall]

Well put Emanuel, and as noted, the choil (a distinct kukri feature) as well as the wider (kopis type) profile place this more in the kukri range.
The sosun pattah is characterized by the recurve and inside cutting edge, but not with this type blade. As always, these classifications become quite vague as these variations occur in diffusion of forms.

It seems to me that in the Bengal regions nearer to Nepal, such variations occur with kora hilted with the Indo-Persian hilt (as here) and much stouter, heavier blade more like a ram dao. These often have the eye or decoration near blade tip, and I have understood these to have been used as a sacrificial weapon with doves. The one I had still had vestiges of the red paint apparently applied to augment symbolic details of the blade.

I would consider that this kukri like version may have perhaps also been used in that manner but not necessarily for doves as in Bengal.
I am curious on the deep stamp at blade center, and what script or language might be in it. It resembles the deep stamps often seen on early tulwar blades in the Northwest regions of India, such as with trisula or stamps in Urdu.

The first example with the brass pavilion theme decoration does seem like it was in a discussion years ago (besides the thread you linked) and the production of souvenier items for British forces was noted. It seems to me that this cottage industry pretty much evolved after Omdurman in the Anglo Egyptian Sudan occupation, at least in notable subsidized production of these 'souveniers'.

[Battara]

.....and besides the sossoun pata is a lot longer, the blade basically being not just sword length, but also usually the size and shape of the Ottoman yataghan.

Another thought is that some of the early kukris were much larger than most of the ones we see today.

[ariel]

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

[ariel]

Just an example: 3 Sosun Patas.
The upper one has an 18th century real Ottoman blade ( the mastique is old and crumbling, so it is not a recent remounting)
The middle one is also yataghan-like, but not quite.
The lower one is a totally different animal:-)

[ariel]

And another one: size of a Kukri, but no Cho. There was an opinion that it might be a reshaped Kora. Perhaps. But it has a perfectly fitting very old scabbard, so the owner of even the reworked weapon saw nothing unusual in its new incarnation.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting discussion veering off to the infamous "name game" :-)

Yes, it has a Cho, which is a feature of Nepalese origin.
But it also has an Indo-Persian Mughal handle, which is seen on Sosun Patas .

Yes. There were longer Kukris , but what prevents SP to be shorter than the average?

Yes, Moghul SP often had yataghan-resembling, or even pure yataghan, blades. But the Indian ones had very different configuration of blades, often similar to the presented one.

What I am driving at, Nepalese armory had a mixture of indigenous and Rajput weapons, and hybrid forms were inavoidable.

Perhaps, I just forgot to add a smiley face after my mention of SP to just acknowledge that weapons do mutate, do enter "holy matrimony" :-) with examples from other cultures , and the final results are unpredictable, difficult to pigeonhole and ... beautiful!

Please see Artzi's description of:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2129
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2052
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3487

Well supported rebuttal, and excellently stated perspective .

[Ian]

Ariel:

I agree that there could easily be some mingling of styles between the kukri and sossun patta. Both are recurved blades, and I could see a Rajput warrior saying something like, "I want a sossun patta that is a bit shorter than usual for close quarter work, but heavier in the belly--a bit like that one from Nepal you showed me the other day, only longer." These types of discussion must have gone on for centuries among men-at-arms of all races and nations. The search for a perfect weapon for a particular task must have been never ending, borrowing from here and there trying to get it right.

The Mongols, of course, unhesitatingly adopted whatever they thought was useful, simply absorbing (and being absorbed by) all they conquered. Since we are dealing with a Mughal (Mongol) influenced weapon in the sossun patta, I'm sure their instincts would have been to modify and improve it any way that seemed useful.

Ian

[Jens Nordlunde]

As can be seen in many stone reliefs and hero stones, it is known that forward curves 'knives' in earlier times were used in Deccan/south India.
It is hard to say how long they were, but it seems as if they were shorter than the swords used at the time.
Why they 'moved' to the north is hard to say, but it could be, as I read somewhere, that a population was driven away, and went to the north, bringing their weapos and culture with them.

[Miguel]

Hi, I would like to thank yu all for participating in this thread which has proved most interesting todate.
Emanuel I thoroughly enjoyed the links but the conflicts of opinion between the reference works and "experts" can be somewhat confusing.

Jim, Thanks for your comments although I don't agree with your thoughts on the plain weapon being for sacrificial purposes, if it was I believe it would have some decoration or inscription. I believe it to be a purely fighting weapon due to its robust no nonsense construction and well forged blade. I just hope that someone will translate or identify the stamp so that a region in either India or Nepal can be identified.

Ariel, Thanks for your comments, images and links which show very clearly that the plain weapon is a hybrid Kukri / Sosson Pattah which I am pleased about because it is what I thought but did not mention it as I did not wish to lead anybody.

Ian, Thanks that is a more than likely possible scenario.

Jens, Thanks for your interesting comments which sooner or later will be confirmed researchers in this field.

I am still surprised that this hybrid weapon does not appear to have definitive name. The Kora which was also copied by the Indians and fitted with a Talwar hilt has two Indian names being known as a Jamadhar Teg or a Kharga.
Miguel

[Emanuel]

That's why I said semantics Ariel :)

If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri.
If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata.
A Rajput might call it...and so on.

The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics :)

Confusing indeed Miguel.

[Jim McDougall]

Good point Miguel, and quite true, this very well have been a combat weapon. It does seem that the sacrificial examples would have had more symbolic decoration, though not always. It would be interesting if we could know more on that deep stamp.

[Miguel]

That's why I said semantics Ariel :)

If this sword came from a Nepalese armoury, a Nepalese would probably call it a khukri.
If it came from a Mughal armoury a Mughal might call it a sossoun pata.
A Rajput might call it...and so on.

The cho is generally characteristic of khukri. The rest is semantics :)

Confusing indeed Miguel.
Hi Emanuel, I have reached the conclusion that you are correct in this case it is semantics.
Regards. Miguel

[Miguel]

Good point Miguel, and quite true, this very well have been a combat weapon. It does seem that the sacrificial examples would have had more symbolic decoration, though not always. It would be interesting if we could know more on that deep stamp.
Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know. :confused:
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Try to have a look at post 12.
I write that the people moved to the north.
I am sorry that I can not help you any more, but I read it very long time ago, so I dont yet remember where I read it, and I have no notes about it.
My guess would be, that you should make a search of a whole population moving from Deccan to the north, after a big battle in the 10th to the 13th century.
I may be wrong, but this is as I remember it, and it was many years ago I read it.
Jens

[russel]

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know. :confused:
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

Lovely Kora, stunning quillwork on the scabbard.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jim, Thanks for your reply. I must admit that since posting this thread I have learned a lot more information about Nepalese weapons making me realize how little I new before. It has made me look at them in a different light and do more research. From old threads and websites the information gleaned can be most confusing. You would think that as Nepal has only two principle weapons the origins would be clear, particularly the Kukri being such an iconic weapon but no one knows r sure although there are plenty of theories most of which seem plausible but none which can be conclusively proved. I must admit to subscribing to the Kopis theory and adopted from the the downward curving weapons of the Rajputs, but since seeing images of the earliest known Kukri against an old Kora (Kouda) my thinking has changed to it being derived from these weapons, but I guess we may never know. :confused:
Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.
Regards. Miguel

Miguel, thank you for posting this outstanding kora! You are right, every time we think we have things pretty much cornered on the arms of certain cultures, regions and classifications .....more is revealed and we find that all we have done is added more questions:)
After decades of study I can consider myself a somewhat advanced novice.
Excellent posts and discussion, nicely done.

Jens, with the mountains of obscure and esoteric material you have plowed through for these many years, I think it quite acceptable that your source might me out of reach at the moment!

[Miguel]

[QUOTE=russel]Lovely Kora, stunning quillwork on the scabbard.[/QUOTE

Hi Russel, Glad you liked it.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Try to have a look at post 12.
I write that the people moved to the north.
I am sorry that I can not help you any more, but I read it very long time ago, so I dont yet remember where I read it, and I have no notes about it.
My guess would be, that you should make a search of a whole population moving from Deccan to the north, after a big battle in the 10th to the 13th century.
I may be wrong, but this is as I remember it, and it was many years ago I read it.
Jens
Hi Jens,
Thanks for the pointer, as you know India was pretty much in turmoil during the period you quote what with the Muslim invasion, Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni, the Tamil king Chola invasion and last but not least the Mongol invasion which must of caused mass emigration of people escaping death, slavery and religious persecution but where they bended up settling at this time I have not yet discovered, thank you for inspiring me to carry out this research it is proving most interesting but I do have a problem with identifying the locations from the old names. Some years ago I purchased a book entitled, "The Oxford History of India," from my local library book sale for 50p the best 50p I have spent as this book is proving most helpful in this research.
Kind regards. Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I will see if I can find somthing else. It is in one of my books - but I have a lot, and in which of them is it?
It is a very interesting subject, so I will give it a try:).
Jens

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Print from 1820 showing quite clearly some weapons.
Regards,
Norman.


This coloured aquatint was made by Robert Havell and Son from plate 13 of JB Fraser's 'Views in the Himala Mountains'.
Fraser's brother William was a political agent to Major-General Martindell during the Nepal campaigns of 1814-15, when the Gurkha Empire was about the size of Great Britain and was unified for the first time in its history. James Fraser accompanied him at that time, commenting that the men of the Nepalese army "had much of the true and high spirit of a soldier", admiring the Gurkhas' sturdiness, strength and courage. As the war progressed, Gurkhas who capitulated were received into British service, joining William's detachment, which became known as Fraser's Irregulars. At the end of the war Gurkha regiments were incorporated into both the Indian and British armies and William was considered one of the founders of these regiments.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Baillie_Fraser

[Miguel]

Hi Norman,

Thank you for a most interesting image showing the Himalayas as the backdrop to the assembled warriors and for the link which proved fascinating reading. What I found interesting about the pile of weapons and on the assembled warriors was the lack of Kukris but there were plenty of what I think were Koras, most interesting.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Hi Norman,

Thank you for a most interesting image showing the Himalayas as the backdrop to the assembled warriors and for the link which proved fascinating reading. What I found interesting about the pile of weapons and on the assembled warriors was the lack of Kukris but there were plenty of what I think were Koras, most interesting.
Miguel

Sorry Norman, Please ignore my comment about lack of Kukris, I have just noticed piles of them underneath the Koras, I am afraid that my vision is not what it used to be.
My apologies.
Miguel

[mrcjgscott]

Dear Miguel,

Firstly my apologies for coming to this thread so late, it obviously slipped under my radar!

Thank you for sharing your kukri's with us. The top one has been correctly identified, infact I saw one last month in quite a famous art collection, with the rest of the suite of arms which accompanied it dispersed around the villa housing the collection. The labels stated acquired in 1904.

Such stands of arms were a very fashionable accessory in well to do households of the time, and as well as the catalogue in Berkley's post, I have seen a similar advertisements in the UK.

The second example certainly means business, almost certainly for fighting rather than sacrifice, although it could accomplish that if required. I am most intrigued by the armoury stamp.

I have seen a few with similar markings, but they are not often found. Would it be possible to see a clearer image? I'll see if I can find any comparable examples.


Thought you might like to see some pics of a Kora I have.

Many thanks for showing us the Kora, probably one of the finest I have seen, and stunning when accompanied by that beautiful silver and quill work sheath.

I am yet to acquire a kora, despite having quite a few kukris, and you have certainly given me something to aspire to-thank you!

Kind regards,

Chris

[Miguel]

Dear Miguel,

Firstly my apologies for coming to this thread so late, it obviously slipped under my radar!

Thank you for sharing your kukri's with us. The top one has been correctly identified, infact I saw one last month in quite a famous art collection, with the rest of the suite of arms which accompanied it dispersed around the villa housing the collection. The labels stated acquired in 1904.

Such stands of arms were a very fashionable accessory in well to do households of the time, and as well as the catalogue in Berkley's post, I have seen a similar advertisements in the UK.

The second example certainly means business, almost certainly for fighting rather than sacrifice, although it could accomplish that if required. I am most intrigued by the armoury stamp.

I have seen a few with similar markings, but they are not often found. Would it be possible to see a clearer image? I'll see if I can find any comparable examples.



Many thanks for showing us the Kora, probably one of the finest I have seen, and stunning when accompanied by that beautiful silver and quill work sheath.

I am yet to acquire a kora, despite having quite a few kukris, and you have certainly given me something to aspire to-thank you!

Kind regards,

Chris
Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never. :) I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible. :shrug: Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

[mrcjgscott]

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never. :) I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible. :shrug: Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel

Thanks for getting back to me Miguel,

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune with your PC, I hope you can rectify the problem quickly and with the minimum of hassle and financial outlay!

Afghanistan is certainly a possibility for the plainer of your two kukris, although I wouldn't rule it out as being Indian in origin also. I would also revise the age estimate given by your son's friend to mid to late 19th century.

I will start a hunt for the stamp as soon as I return home later this week, and shall let you know if I find any further information.

With kind regards,

Chris

[ariel]

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

[estcrh]

Miguel, nice examples, thanks for sharing your pictures.

[Miguel]

Thanks for getting back to me Miguel,

I am sorry to hear of your misfortune with your PC, I hope you can rectify the problem quickly and with the minimum of hassle and financial outlay!

Afghanistan is certainly a possibility for the plainer of your two kukris, although I wouldn't rule it out as being Indian in origin also. I would also revise the age estimate given by your son's friend to mid to late 19th century.

I will start a hunt for the stamp as soon as I return home later this week, and shall let you know if I find any further information.

With kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,

I tend to agree wit you regarding the age. My original thoughts were that the origin was Indian I never gave Afghanistan a thought but it seems that there may be a likely hood that it could have been made there so at the moment the jury is still out on this one but I am hoping that you may confirm it one way or the other. I very much appreciate your input.

My PC is with the repairers and I am not expecting to have it returned for at least another week. All the signs indicate that the main processor has failed, just hope the hard drive is OK.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.
Hi Ariel,
Thanks for the info, I never gave Afghanistan a thought with regard to this type of weapon. I am learning something new all the time on this forum.
Regards
Miguel

[mrcjgscott]

Yes, there are kukris clearly marked with what we conveniently call " Mazar-i-Sharif" stamp. Likely, just a stamp of government property. They are from the very end of the 19th century, perhaps even beginning of the 20th.

Hello Ariel,

Here is one of my examples of such a stamp. All the ones I have seen on kukris date from the early to mind 1890's.

Kind regards,

Chris

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2513/stories/20080704251306500.htm

[mrcjgscott]

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2513/stories/20080704251306500.htm

Very interesting Jens, thank you!

[Miguel]

Miguel, nice examples, thanks for sharing your pictures.

My pleasure and thanks for grouping them together, it makes it easier to compare both sides at the same time.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Hello Ariel,

Here is one of my examples of such a stamp. All the ones I have seen on kukris date from the early to mind 1890's.

Kind regards,

Chris

Hello Chris,

Interesting stamp but nothing like mine which, if all such stamps are similar to yours,makes me lean more towards India than Afghanistan.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Miguel,
I promissed to show you the kukri formed daggers/swords from the south, and here they are.
http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2513/stories/20080704251306500.htm

Hi Jens,

Thank you for such an interesting article it certainly makes you think. The history of India is fascinating and extremely complex and just as you think that you have found an answer you discover something else which takes you off on a different track.

I am fairly sure in my own mind that the Kukri form originated from India.
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Miguel,

You are welcome. When it comes to the size of the daggers/swords, it is hard to say how long they were, and the men looks like dwarfs, but maybe that was the artistic style of the time.

The way I remember the text I once read, it went like this. 'About the 12th century the people of southeast India was beaten in a big battle, and as a consequence they moved to the north, and some to the Himmalaya area.'
The problem is, that I read this long ago, and I am not sure in which book I read it, but should I find the book and the sentence I will try to remember to let you know.

Yes the history of India is fascinating, but complicated, like you say. But you must not forget that India is a huge country, and not only that, it is a very huge country. To this comes that it was very rich, so other people found it most interesting to pay them a visit.

In an article I have read about some of the different forts in India from the 16th and 17th century, the author gives the awarage hight if the soldiers to about 170 cm. I am, however, not sure that the same measure can be used here.

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Miguel,

Hindu Arms and Ritual. Eburon Achademic Publishers, 2015. Page 83. Robert Elgood shows the attached and writes.

"Gana holding a sword. Mahishamardini cave Temple. Mamallapuram Pallava. Mid-seventh century.
Ganas were diminitive gods or attendants who served as arms bearers for the great gods. The square 'cussion' pommel, invariable made of wood in later examples, is already evident as is the forward curved blade which continues in use for centuries, the late form being the sosan pattah."

So not only does he show a very early example, but he also tells why the man is so small.

[Miguel]

Hi Miguel,

Hindu Arms and Ritual. Eburon Achademic Publishers, 2015. Page 83. Robert Elgood shows the attached and writes.

"Gana holding a sword. Mahishamardini cave Temple. Mamallapuram Pallava. Mid-seventh century.
Ganas were diminitive gods or attendants who served as arms bearers for the great gods. The square 'cussion' pommel, invariable made of wood in later examples, is already evident as is the forward curved blade which continues in use for centuries, the late form being the sosan pattah."

So not only does he show a very early example, but he also tells why the man is so small.

Hi Jens,

Fascinating, if that doesn't look like a Khukri nothing does, it convinces me even more that that the Khukri form originated from India. The image also reminded me of the Ayda Katti the weapon of the Coorgs (Kodava people) who, as you know, are in South West India. Apparently this weapon did not appear until the 17thC a century later than the oldest known Khukri which means that up to 10 centuries passed from the weapon shown on the carving to the finding of the Khukri. Thank you once again for sharing this information, it is most appreciated and keeps my appetite whetted.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are welcome.
About the size of the weapon we can only guess, but if the man is a dwarf like Elgood says, and if the proportions are correct, and if we (guessing) say the man was 130 cm tall the sword must have been about 75 cm long. This is all guessing, but it is likely to have been quite big.

It is possible that the Adya Katti developed from such a sword/dagger, but from which kind of weapon did the weapon Elgood shows develop?

I do hope you will take up the challange and start to research it, and tell us to which conclusion you come.

Jens

[Miguel]

You are welcome.
About the size of the weapon we can only guess, but if the man is a dwarf like Elgood says, and if the proportions are correct, and if we (guessing) say the man was 130 cm tall the sword must have been about 75 cm long. This is all guessing, but it is likely to have been quite big.

It is possible that the Adya Katti developed from such a sword/dagger, but from which kind of weapon did the weapon Elgood shows develop?

I do hope you will take up the challange and start to research it, and tell us to which conclusion you come.

Jens
Hi Jens,

I will do my best but before that I need to scratch an itch which started when I saw the image from Elgood and that is to discover where the Coorgs originated from before they settled in the mountain area of south west India.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Hello Chris,
Thank you for your interesting comments on the Kukris. Apology accepted, better late than never. :) I have now obtained more than three quotes which fix the time period and use for the wide decorated Kukri and am well satisfied. Not quite so with the plain one although I pretty certain that it's name is a Kukri with a Talwar hilt as obvious as that. A friend of my youngest son owns a business in Katmandu and researching Nepali weapons is one of the services he offers. This person has advised that the blade stamp is 99 per cent Afghanistan and that a number of these blades were produced in the late 18th early 19thC. He pointed out that the Gurkhas were in the North West Frontier for well over 100 years and also in Afghanistan. A contingent apparently as guards for the British installed Sultan. It will be very interesting if your enquiries could confirm this. There is a problem
, however, as my PC decided to stop working yesterday so it will be a while before I will be able to provide you with a clearer image of the blade stamp as I will have to have it repaired or worse purchase a new one. I am sending this reply from my iPad but I can't send photos as systems are not compatible. :shrug: Your comments on my Kora were most appreciated.
Regards
Miguel
Hi Chris,
I now have my repaired PC back thank goodness. I have tried to get a better photo of the blade mark but without success, probably due to my ineptitude with the camera, sorry we will have to make do with the one weve already got.
Regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I have read about it not so long ago, so I may be able to find out where I read it. Maybe one of my books will help me. When I find out I will let you know.
Jens

[mrcjgscott]

This has developed into a very interesting thread, thank you all!!

Hi Chris,
I now have my repaired PC back thank goodness. I have tried to get a better photo of the blade mark but without success, probably due to my ineptitude with the camera, sorry we will have to make do with the one weve already got.
Regards
Miguel

Not to worry Miguel,

Pleased to hear your PC has made a full recovery.

I will try to enhance the image we already have and work from that. My search continues, when time allows!

Best wishes,

Chris

[Jens Nordlunde]

The Mahishamardini cave Temple it at the east coast of India - but you no doubt know that. Coorg is, as you know, on the west coast of India, so the two places are very far apart.
The weapon shown by Elgood could be related to the adya katti, but it seems to be closer related at the kukri. How?
I think the answer will found be in studying the early Indian history of this area.

[Miguel]

Hi Jens, Thank you for the information. I agree that the weapon on the carving looks more like the Khukri than the Ayda Katti but to me there is some resemblance between the two, anyway I take your point and will carry on with my research.

Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply and hope you can discover more about the stamp.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
I dont know if you have Elgood's book Hindu Arms and Ritual, but on page 234 under Ayudha katti he writes. " Used all over Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka where they continue to have an agricultural use."
It is the first time I have seen this, and unfortunately Elgood doesn't write when that was.
The mentioning of Sri Lanka is interresting, as the dwarf with the 'kukri' is from the east coast of India and 7th century - and this leads me to recommend the following book.
Majumdar, R. C.: Suvarnadvipa – Hindu Colonies of the Far East. Vol. I-II. 1937. Cosmo Publications, reprint 2004.
It is the story about how the Indian Hindu princes colonised the countries to the east of India between the 8th and 11th century.

I wish you good luck with your reseach

[blue lander]

The auction for this one recently ended, nobody bid on it. It was described as a "Ayda Katti" from the Malabar Coast. I *think* the blade is downward curving? It's hard to tell which edge is sharpened. From the orientation of the hilt I'd imagine it'd be hard to wield if it was upward curving.

[Jens Nordlunde]

blue lander,
I wonder why no one bought it?
The edge is on the straight underside. This is a Hindu adya katti, but the Muhamedans also had a weapon like it called moplah knife.
According to Stone, Egerton called the Muhamedan knife for an adya katti, so that may be why there is some confusion about the names.

[Miguel]

I also wonder why no one bid for it as it seems in quite good condition. You are right about the names, the weapon of the Malabar coast is called a Moplah and the war sword of the Coorgs is the Ayda Katti. I read something the other week on what the name Ayda Katti meant but I don't remember what it said but I will try and find the article again and let you know.
Thank you again Jens for taking the time out to share with me some of your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,
It is sometimes referred to as War Knife.
Jens

[Miguel]

Miguel,
It is sometimes referred to as War Knife.
Jens
Hi Jens/

I was mistaken when I said that I had read something about the meaning of Ayda Katti, it was the anglicised name for the Kavada people , i.e. Coorg, I was getting mixed up with so apologies for that. I seem to have become hooked on the Kavada people at the moment and am looking into their early origins as these may possibly throw a bit more light on the weapon in the sculpture.

I almost forgot, I understood the Pichangetti to be the knife and the Ayda Katti the sword?
Kind regards
Miguel :confused:

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Migiel,

Yes the Pichangetti is a Coorg utility knife, and can be found if many varities.

I find your interest in the early Coorgs is very/most interesting, and I do hope that you will go on with your research, as very much rsearch still need to be done.

All the best

Jens

[Ian]

Hi Miguel:

You have chosen a very interesting topic with the Kodava (Coorg) people. They are quite distinct from the majority of Indians in their ethnicity and culture, and have a long martial history. They have featured prominently in the Indian military establishment, and I think the C-in-C of the Indian Army was a Coorg not long back. They are known for their martial skills.

Good luck with your research on the origins of these people. There have been many, many theories and several books written on the subject. Perhaps the most colorful notion is that they are descended from some of the troops who fought for Alexander the Great and stayed on in India.

I look forward to reading what you find out.

Regards,

Ian.

[Miguel]

Hi Migiel,

Yes the Pichangetti is a Coorg utility knife, and can be found if many varities.

I find your interest in the early Coorgs is very/most interesting, and I do hope that you will go on with your research, as very much rsearch still need to be done.

All the best

Jens

Thanks Jens it is a most interesting subject which will probably take forever and still not be conclusive.
Kind regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Hi Miguel:

You have chosen a very interesting topic with the Kodava (Coorg) people. They are quite distinct from the majority of Indians in their ethnicity and culture, and have a long martial history. They have featured prominently in the Indian military establishment, and I think the C-in-C of the Indian Army was a Coorg not long back. They are known for their martial skills.

Good luck with your research on the origins of these people. There have been many, many theories and several books written on the subject. Perhaps the most colorful notion is that they are descended from some of the troops who fought for Alexander the Great and stayed on in India.

I look forward to reading what you find out.

Regards,

Ian.
Hi Ian it's a bit like a drug the more you delve the more you want to delve further.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,

I think I have something for you.
Robert Elgood: Hindu Arms and Ritual, page 86, illustrations 8.21, 8.22 and 8.23.
Elgood writes that the pictures are from the Vitthala temple, Hampi early 16th century, and he adds 'it is clear that this kind of sword was in common use over a large part of southern India untill at least the mid-sixteenth century'.
Unfortunately he does not explain why these blades went out of use in the south.

Jens

[Miguel]

Miguel,

I think I have something for you.
Robert Elgood: Hindu Arms and Ritual, page 86, illustrations 8.21, 8.22 and 8.23.
Elgood writes that the pictures are from the Vitthala temple, Hampi early 16th century, and he adds 'it is clear that this kind of sword was in common use over a large part of southern India untill at least the mid-sixteenth century'.
Unfortunately he does not explain why these blades went out of use in the south.

Jens

Hi Jens,
Thank you very much for the info, unfortunately I do not have that particular book by Elgood but it seems I must get one for the info it contains. In the meantime I will see what I can find on the net re the pictures from the Vitthala temple. I cant thank you enough for taking the time out to provide me with useful info.

Wishing you a Happy New Year
Kind Regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,

I have found something more, which I find interesting for your research.
In Four Centuries of Rajput Painting. Mewar, Marwar and Dhundhar. Skira 2009. Its from a very big private collection of Indian miniatures.
The author, Vicky Ducrot, and one of the owners og the collection, explains who the Rajputs are/were and from where they came, and on page 17 it says.

"In the twelfth century the Rajputs were defeated by the armies of Muslim invaders, first Arabs, later Turks and Afghans, and retreated from the Hindusthan plains, taking refuge in wilder regions: the deserts and steppes of Rajasthan, the jungles of Bundelkand (Central India), and the mountain ranges of northern Punjab."

[Miguel]

Miguel,

I have found something more, which I find interesting for your research.
In Four Centuries of Rajput Painting. Mewar, Marwar and Dhundhar. Skira 2009. Its from a very big private collection of Indian miniatures.
The author, Vicky Ducrot, and one of the owners og the collection, explains who the Rajputs are/were and from where they came, and on page 17 it says.

"In the twelfth century the Rajputs were defeated by the armies of Muslim invaders, first Arabs, later Turks and Afghans, and retreated from the Hindusthan plains, taking refuge in wilder regions: the deserts and steppes of Rajasthan, the jungles of Bundelkand (Central India), and the mountain ranges of northern Punjab."

Hi Jens,

Much obliged for the info. I am still struggling with the origin of the Coorgs but have discovered an interesting paragraph in my Oxford history of India of which I will let you know after I have compared it with other information on this subject. I received my copy of Elgoods Hindu Arms and and Ritual together with a copy of his study of the weapons in the Jaipur armoury today so am in for much enjoyable and interesting reading.
Kind regards
Miguel

[ariel]

Buddy, you are for a wild ride! :-)))

These books are indispensable sources of info for anybody interested in Indian weapons. Take a month-long vacation to read them and enjoy!

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,

Ariel is right, but maybe you wont need a month.
Somewhere I have something about the origin of the Corgs - I will have to think - althought I know that I will have a head ache afterwards :-).

This link should give you a late backgroung knowledge http://muralirvarma.blogspot.ch/2010/05/princely-coorg-and-chikka-veera.html

[Miguel]

Buddy, you are for a wild ride! :-)))

These books are indispensable sources of info for anybody interested in Indian weapons. Take a month-long vacation to read them and enjoy!
Thanks Ariel. I wish.

[Miguel]

Miguel,

Ariel is right, but maybe you wont need a month.
Somewhere I have something about the origin of the Corgs - I will have to think - althought I know that I will have a head ache afterwards :-).

This link should give you a late backgroung knowledge http://muralirvarma.blogspot.ch/2010/05/princely-coorg-and-chikka-veera.html

Hi Jens, My apologies for the delay of this reply but I have been pretty busy with the family, I tried on two occasions, yesterday, from my iPad and managed to send a short reply to ariel but the system would not send my reply to you and kept telling me that I was not logged in so after logging in twice and getting nowhere I left it until now so I could reply from my laptop.

Thank you very much for the link all info helps, I hope you can turn something up on the origin as I am struggling and like you am sure that I will also suffer a headache, probably more than one. There seems to be information about them from around the 18th C but not a lot in earlier times. I am looking, at the moment, at the period embracing the 1st to the 7th C to see if I can turn up a clue as to where the down curved swords originated. It has been confirmed that a thriving trade between the peninsular and Rome and the West was established by The 1st C ad so I am wondering if weapons of this type could have been introduced by this route which means investigating which countries were trading with the South at this time etc so an awful lot of work to be done just on this one area. There seems to be quite a lot of theories and hypotheses about the origin of the Coorgs but no actual proof but I am not giving up as I am finding it most interesting. Incidentally during my searching I have come across both Kora and Ayda Katti with Khandar hilts which may point to their use, in later times, by either the Rajput or the Marathas or both?
Best regards
Miguel

[ariel]

Miguel,

Downcurved sword were plentiful among the Central Asian nomads.
Rawson ( and then Pant and Elgood) show similar forms in India even B.C.
Adya Katti was supposed to reflect Arab influence from Omani immigrants.


Thus, it could have been purely indigenous form of Indian weaponry with some contribution from Northern invaders at different times. Figuring out what is what in each particular case might be impossible. Was, for example, Mughal Sosun Patta in any way related to the Indian one? Or was it a "copy" of the Ottoman Yataghan? Or a happy marriage of both?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,

Tod, James:Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, vol. I-II.Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2001 reprint.

In the first volume Tod writes about several, very early, Scytic invasions, and they seem to have been all over India.

Ariel is of course right. It may be impossible to prove anything - but it is worth a try :-).
It is always nice to winn, but should you lose you must remember, that you have learned a lot walking this stony path :-) - and learning is what it is all about. So which way it goes, you will always come out as a winner.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,

Maybe this link will help you further
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Catalogue_of_the_Persian_Manuscripts_in_the_Britis h_Museum_v1_1000689927/337

[Miguel]

Miguel,

Downcurved sword were plentiful among the Central Asian nomads.
Rawson ( and then Pant and Elgood) show similar forms in India even B.C.
Adya Katti was supposed to reflect Arab influence from Omani immigrants.


Thus, it could have been purely indigenous form of Indian weaponry with some contribution from Northern invaders at different times. Figuring out what is what in each particular case might be impossible. Was, for example, Mughal Sosun Patta in any way related to the Indian one? Or was it a "copy" of the Ottoman Yataghan? Or a happy marriage of both?

Hi Ariel, Thanks for your reply. I think you are probably right and that it may be impossible, I had reached this conclusion myself but at the same time you never know and as I am enjoying learning things I never knew about the history of India I will keep searching for a while longer. Thank you for your tip re Arab influence which again I did not know. Learning all the time, I am really glad that I was able to join this forum.
Thanks again.
Miguel

[Miguel]

Miguel,

Tod, James:Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, vol. I-II.Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2001 reprint.

In the first volume Tod writes about several, very early, Scytic invasions, and they seem to have been all over India.

Ariel is of course right. It may be impossible to prove anything - but it is worth a try :-).
It is always nice to winn, but should you lose you must remember, that you have learned a lot walking this stony path :-) - and learning is what it is all about. So which way it goes, you will always come out as a winner.

Hi Jens,

You are quite correct and I really appreciate the information, help and encouragement you have given me, also I would like to thank you for starting me down this path as it is proving very interesting to me.
Best regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel,

This link may be of interest to you http://indiaopines.com/coorg-history/

If I remember correctly there were three or four clans ruling Coorg before the Sesodia clan (the last ruling clan) came to power.
The Sesodia clan did not always have this name, as they ad changed name four or five time over the centuries, so you will need to find their roots and follow them. Another thing you will need is to chase the other ruling clans, to see from where they origin.
If you drop the Sunday afternoon tea, you should have plenty of time :-). No, quite honestly, this kind of search does take a very long time, and it is sometims quite stony, but it pays off with all the things you learn on the way.

I too am researching the Coorg history, but something quite different from what you are doing, so now and again I find thngs which may be of interest to you.

[Miguel]

Hi Jens,

Thanks again, a most interesting link. I am beginning to think that there may be something in the Greek connection and also the Caucasian connection although some scholars advise that these connections should be discounted. I wish you luck with your reseach and perhaps I may turn something up with mine.
Best regards
Miguel