Turkish Shamshir

[Miguel]

Hi Everyone,
I think that I may have what I believe to be a 19thC Turkish Shamshir and would welcome your confirmation or other wise and any comments you may have.
Thanking you in advance
Miguel

[Miguel]

Forgot to include Armourers stamp.
Miguel

[TVV]

You are correct: definitely Ottoman and 19th century. I do believe this is one of the early military regulation patterns in the Ottoman army. It would appear that officers were allowed to keep heirloom blades and re-hilt them, as I have seen all kinds of blades with this hilt pattern.

Sincerely,
Teodor

[Kubur]

Yes, it's a beautiful Turkish officer sword, called also Turkish military sword.
I have one too that I'll post later.
But yours is better, with the stamp...
This kind of sword is from 1890-1910...Maybe yours is slightly early from 1870-1890...
I like the old and funny try to fix the guard.
Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

[ALEX]

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).

... Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

[estcrh]

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.
Irrespective of what the different terms mean/meant in different times, countries and cultures "saif" and "kilij" now refers to two different types of swords. Kilij refering to the strictly Ottoman sword with a distintive grip, while saif refers to the sword with the type of grip pictured below, of course people can use whatever term they choose but why use any other term besides kilij for the Ottoman sword with the distinctive kilij grip? If it has a "karabela" grip it is a karabela, if it has a "kilij" grip it is a kilij, if it has a "saif" grip it is a saif.

[estcrh]

Hi Everyone,
I think that I may have what I believe to be a 19thC Turkish Shamshir and would welcome your confirmation or other wise and any comments you may have.
Thanking you in advance
Miguel
Miguel, nice example, thanks for posting, its hard to tell from the photos but do the fittings have a gold tint?

[ALEX]

Irrespective of what the different terms mean/meant in different times, countries and cultures "saif" and "kilij" now refers to two different types of swords. Kilij refering to the strictly Ottoman sword with a distintive grip, while saif refers to the sword with the type of grip pictured below, of course people can use whatever term they choose but why use any other term besides kilij for the Ottoman sword with the distinctive kilij grip? If it has a "karabela" grip it is a karabela, if it has a "kilij" grip it is a kilij, if it has a "saif" grip it is a saif.

Right, that was exactly my point about the Kilij)
Also, the grip alone does not define the type of sword. it's a whole sword that does, and primarily the blade. The grip (and the sword on it) that you pictured above is not saif. Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.

[estcrh]

The grip (and the sword on it) that you pictured above is not saif. Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.I and many other people would consider it to be a saif, maybe an Indian saif but still a saif, you certainly would not call it a tulwar. As I said, it does not matter what the origin of the term is, how it is used in our times can and does differ from its original meaning. The term "saif" for many people in our times has come to describe swords from many different cultures with this distinctive hilt. As I said people can use terms whatever way they want but when I hear the word "saif" this is what I see in my mind, just like when I hear "kilij" I picture the distinctive Ottoman hilt, while the blades may differ the hilt is a very static item.

[Kubur]

Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.

Hi Alex,
I agree, but to complete your post
Kilij is a sword in Turkish, no more.
"Pronounced curve and yelman", I guess you describe a pala
Best,
Kubur

[estcrh]

Kilij is a sword in Turkish, no more.

Maybe in Turkey but not for many English speaking people with an interest in Ottomans swords, the term "kilij" in our times has come to refer to a specific type of hilt on an Ottoman sword.

[Kubur]

Right, that was exactly my point about the Kilij)
Also, the grip alone does not define the type of sword. it's a whole sword that does, and primarily the blade. The grip (and the sword on it) that you pictured above is not saif. Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.


I don't agree at ALL.
It's the GRIP who defines the sword.
The blades are traded, captured or whatever.
A kattara or a Kaskara with German blades, are they German swords?
No they are Omani and Sudanese...
To be more precise, the DNA of the sword are the GRIP and the SCABBARD.

Best,
Kubur

[Kubur]

I and many other people would consider it to be a saif, maybe an Indian saif but still a saif, you certainly would not call it a tulwar. As I said, it does not matter what the origin of the term is, how it is used in our times can and does differ from its original meaning. The term "saif" for many people in our times has come to describe swords from many different cultures with this distinctive hilt. As I said people can use terms whatever way they want but when I hear the word "saif" this is what I see in my mind, just like when I hear "kilij" I picture the distinctive Ottoman hilt, while the blades may differ the hilt is a very static item.

Hi Strech,

I agree for the end of what you wrote.

I think that the blade is Caucasian or Persian. But some members will tell.

Anyway it's a pure Turkish / Ottoman sword.

Best,

[Kubur]

I don't agree at ALL.
It's the GRIP who defines the sword.
The blades are traded, captured or whatever.
A kattara or a Kaskara with German blades, are they German swords?
No they are Omani and Sudanese...
To be more precise, the DNA of the sword are the GRIP and the SCABBARD.

Best,
Kubur

I mean the HILT not the grip!
:D

[ALEX]

Hi Alex,
I agree, but to complete your post
Kilij is a sword in Turkish, no more.
"Pronounced curve and yelman", I guess you describe a pala
Best,
Kubur

I already mentioned that Kilij is Turkish word for sword (just as Saif is Arabic word for sword). Pala is a shorter and later version of Kilij.

[ALEX]

I don't agree at ALL.
It's the GRIP who defines the sword.
The blades are traded, captured or whatever.
A kattara or a Kaskara with German blades, are they German swords?
No they are Omani and Sudanese...
To be more precise, the DNA of the sword are the GRIP and the SCABBARD.
Best,
Kubur


It really depends. There's no single rule. However, the blade is usually gets re-hilted, not the hilt gets re-bladed :) Ideally, the blade would match the hilt at least ethnographically. If not, that is of no argument. if an Indian tulwar blade gets Ottoman handle, it would not become Ottoman sword! it'll remain indian tulwar blade with Ottoman handle. granted, some people will be quick to call it Ottoman, but that's another story)

[ALEX]

I and many other people would consider it to be a saif, maybe an Indian saif but still a saif, you certainly would not call it a tulwar. As I said, it does not matter what the origin of the term is, how it is used in our times can and does differ from its original meaning. The term "saif" for many people in our times has come to describe swords from many different cultures with this distinctive hilt. As I said people can use terms whatever way they want but when I hear the word "saif" this is what I see in my mind, just like when I hear "kilij" I picture the distinctive Ottoman hilt, while the blades may differ the hilt is a very static item.

and many people call it wrong! Saif is an Arabic word for Arabian sword type. Calling an Indian tulwar Saif because it has non-tulwar hilt is like calling indian sword Kilij because it has yelman. The "Origin of the term" does matter! and dismissing it in favor of how it is used in "our time" is simply not correct as it defies history)

[estcrh]

The "Origin of the term" does matter! and dismissing it in favor of how it is used in "our time" is simply not correct as it defies history)Just like "katar" and many other terms, its good to know the origins, history and the original meanings but you also have to adjust with the times, armor and weapons terms are fluid and they do change over time.

[ALEX]

Just like "katar" and many other terms, its good to know the origins, history and the original meanings but you also have to adjust with the times, armor and weapons terms are fluid and they do change over time.

..sorry, I do not understand what this means.
Katar is katar and will remain katar over time. why would any term change for the same type of weapon? Why all of the sudden some call an Indian sword Saif? the term is used inadvertently by many but it is not good reason to "adjust". Also, where did you see this handle type being associated with or called Saif?

[Kubur]

It really depends. There's no single rule. However, the blade is usually gets re-hilted, not the hilt gets re-bladed :) Ideally, the blade would match the hilt at least ethnographically. If not, that is of no argument. if an Indian tulwar blade gets Ottoman handle, it would not become Ottoman sword! it'll remain indian tulwar blade with Ottoman handle. granted, some people will be quick to call it Ottoman, but that's another story)

I see your point and I respect your opinion.
But I don't agree at all.
Let me give you another example:
- a pistol or a long gun made in the Balkans during the Ottoman rule with an Italian barrel and a French lock. What is it for you?
For me, it's an Ottoman pistol or a pistol from the Balkans.
It's the same for the swords, if your tulwar is reused and re-hilted by the Ottomans, it's an Ottoman sword. :cool:

[ALEX]

I see your point and I respect your opinion.
But I don't agree at all.
Let me give you another example:
- a pistol or a long gun made in the Balkans during the Ottoman rule with an Italian barrel and a French lock. What is it for you?
For me, it's an Ottoman pistol or a pistol from the Balkans.
It's the same for the swords, if your tulwar is reused and re-hilted by the Ottomans, it's an Ottoman sword. :cool:

this is why I said it all depends. I agree, the pistol is Ottoman because it was made in the Balkans during Ottoman rule, I assume by a common/known design.
The tulwar blade on Ottoman sword would not be as such.... but Persian blade would. Ottomans used Persian blades on some of their swords by design. This is why there are general terms such as trade blade, as well as Indo-Persian, Indo-Arab, multi-cultural, etc. it was a mix, but the blade would (generally) come or considered first, by design! As I said, the blades were re-hilted, not hilts re-bladed. and this was my point :)
If tulwar is occasionally rehilted by the Ottomans, i.e. with Ottoman hilt (which would be quite uncommon, and I think does not even exist), that would be a composite, Indo-Ottoman piece, not by design but by accident :)

[estcrh]

Katar is katar and will remain katar over time. why would any term change for the same type of weapon?

Are you sure, not everyone agrees with you.
The katar originated in South India where its original name was kattari before being altered to katara (romanized as "katar" by the British)

[ALEX]

Are you sure, not everyone agrees with you.

this is semantics, really. it is essentially the same term and I am not arguing about the spelling, dialect or pronunciation of the same weapon type.
But my point is: it's wrong to call Indo-Persian sword an Arabian sword, don't you disagree? :) :)

[estcrh]

this is semantics, really. it is essentially the same term and I am not arguing about the spelling. But my point is: it's wrong to call Indo-Persian sword an Arab sword, don't you disagree? :) :)Alex, I personally do not think there is anything wrong with calling an Indian sword with a saif hilt a "saif hilted Indian sword"....if someone told me over the phone that they just purchased an Indian sword I would have no idea what it looked like, on the other hand if it was described as a "saif hilted Indian sword" I would have a good idea what the sword looked like.

[A.alnakkas]

Irrespective of what the different terms mean/meant in different times, countries and cultures "saif" and "kilij" now refers to two different types of swords. Kilij refering to the strictly Ottoman sword with a distintive grip, while saif refers to the sword with the type of grip pictured below, of course people can use whatever term they choose but why use any other term besides kilij for the Ottoman sword with the distinctive kilij grip? If it has a "karabela" grip it is a karabela, if it has a "kilij" grip it is a kilij, if it has a "saif" grip it is a saif.

Why is an Indian hilt design is identified with the Arab word for sword?

[A.alnakkas]

The word saif predates this hilt design by well, quite alot of time. The Arabs called swords "saif" (I emphasize that saif simply means sword) even when sword hilts are of a different design. So how come this type of hilt became 'saif' ?

[ALEX]

exactly my point, Lotfy. I also did not understand how something would become something else all of the sudden) thank you for making it so clear.

[Miguel]

You are correct: definitely Ottoman and 19th century. I do believe this is one of the early military regulation patterns in the Ottoman army. It would appear that officers were allowed to keep heirloom blades and re-hilt them, as I have seen all kinds of blades with this hilt pattern.

Sincerely,
Teodor
Thanks for your comments Teodor I had a feeling that it may be military but was not aware of officers being able to keep their heirloom blades and re-hilt them which means that there must be a good variety of this sword with different blades, most interesting.
Regards
Miguel

[eftihis]

I think the sword discussed in the link bellow http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7519&highlight=pala+european+blade fits in the discusion! It has a european blade with a pala hilt.

[Miguel]

Yes, it's a beautiful Turkish officer sword, called also Turkish military sword.
I have one too that I'll post later.
But yours is better, with the stamp...
This kind of sword is from 1890-1910...Maybe yours is slightly early from 1870-1890...
I like the old and funny try to fix the guard.
Last point, it's not a shamshir, but a kilij in Turkish or a saif in Arabic.
Best,
Kubur
Hi Kubur, I'm just going on what I have seen types of this sword called, I certainly would not call it a Kilij or Saif as these names conjure up totally different types of sword to me even if your comments are correct, if anything the blade seems more sabre like.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).



Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.
Hi Alex, Thanks for your comments, I am not sure where the blade was made I have been trying to match the stamp but without success so far.
Regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Agree with Teodor, many of these have all kinds of blades, European and/or earlier blades. I saw a few with early wootz blades.

Do you think this blade is Persian, Caucasian, or could be Armenian(?).



Kubur, as you know Kilij and Saif mean "sword" or "saber" in their respective languages. in a conventional sense, "Kilij" has more pronounced curve and yelman, and generally wider blade. Miguel's sword is variation of both, but is a shamshir nevertheless.
Hi Alex, Thanks for your comments, I do not know where the blade was made and have been trying to match the stamp without success so far.
Regards
Miguel

[Kubur]

I have seen some stamps like that on Persian qaddara.
One member said that these Persian blades are from Caucasus, but he's a not a reliable source on Persian weapons. But I come back to your blade, the question stays open, it could be from Persia or Caucasus (because of the groves similar to some shashqa).

[Miguel]

Miguel, nice example, thanks for posting, its hard to tell from the photos but do the fittings have a gold tint?
Hi Estcrh, Thanks for your comments, much clearer pics than mine I am afraid that I am no very good at taking photos due to vision problems. The tint you can see is brass which must have been originally silvered.
Regards
Miguel

[estcrh]

A few different saif/sayf references. The top left image is from George Stones book, he shows an Indian sword and a sword from Java as being saif, Stone mentions saif as having a "hooked pommel". The top right image from the "Official Report of the Calcutta International Exhibition, 1883-84" mentions two types of Indian swords as being "saif-i-janubi" and "saif-i-halbi". The third image is from "Oriental Armour" by H. Russell Robinson, he calls Mamluk swords "saif". The bottom two images are from Artzi, they show two completely different types of swords being called "saif".

[ALEX]

All these swords are Arabian saifs. What is your point?

[estcrh]

All these swords are Arabian saifs. What is your point?

Saif is an Arabic word for "sword", and represents Arabian/Bedouin sword type with (usually) straight blade. The one pictured above is Indian.

The point is that saif can be curved as well as straight and they can be Indian in origin.

[ALEX]

The point is that saif can be curved as well as straight and they can be Indian in origin.

You're trying to prove a point without completely understanding it. Noone said saif cannot be curved, although it is usually straight(ish). But saif is not Indian in origin, period. the descriptions in Stone's book are inaccurate and you're repeating them without considering other reliable sources). These are Arabian swords, not Indian or Javan!

[estcrh]

You're trying to prove a point without completely understanding it. Noone said saif cannot be curved, although it is usually straight(ish). But saif is not Indian in origin, period. the descriptions in Stone's book are inaccurate and you're repeating them without considering other reliable sources). These are Arabian swords, not Indian or Javan!

Alex, maybe your the one who is not understanding, where did I say that the saif was Indian in origin....no were. I am not "proving" any point, I am explaining why some collectors and dealers etc may consider swords to be saif that you may not. Were are your "reliable sources", I have posted some maybe you can show some references that back up your statements. If a sword was made in India (or Java) in the manner of a saif then it can be called a saif. What is your proof that Stone (and Artzi) are wrong?? Where is your proof that a saif is usually straight(ish)? Lets see some references or is this all from our personal knowledge.

[ALEX]

Estcrh, you may call every sword a Saif... and you'll be right. But please do not manipulate and misrepresent my words! I did not say that Artzi was wrong, and I did not say that Saif is always straight. I said it is (usually) straight. look, out of all Saifs pictured only a few have curved shamshir-like blades, most are almost straight, very slightly curved, this is what I meant by straigh(ish), and this may be wrong term. and also that there's a mistake in Stone's description, even though he stated that Saif is an Arab sword (not Indian), the mistake is in Indian and Javan description of 2 Arab swords. Based on it, you concluded that Saif: "can be Indian in origin" (I quote your own words). I am afraid I cannot help if you need more proof and evidences of said.

[Kubur]

Estcrh, you may call every sword a Saif... and you'll be right. But please do not manipulate and misrepresent my words! I did not say that Artzi was wrong, and I did not say that Saif is always straight. I said it is (usually) straight. look, out of all Saifs pictured only a few have curved shamshir-like blades, most are almost straight, very slightly curved, this is what I meant by straigh(ish), and this may be wrong term. and also that there's a mistake in Stone's description, even though he stated that Saif is an Arab sword (not Indian), the mistake is in Indian and Javan description of 2 Arab swords. Based on it, you concluded that Saif: "can be Indian in origin" (I quote your own words). I am afraid I cannot help if you need more proof and evidences of said.

Let me enter in the "dance", I vote for Alex! But I would like to add something:
Saif is the Arabic word for sword, no more. It can be - and not should be - apply to Arabic swords.
Another point a kilij has not necessary a yelman. It's a sword in Turkish, point.
I have a kilij with no yelman.
I never saw a tulwar with an Ottoman hilt. But I'm sure that's exist somewhere, true or fake... I have seen a lot of strange combinations since the lats years...
And again the origin of the blade doesn't define a sword.
An Arabian sword with a Persian blade is an Arabian sword, called sometimes saif sometimes Arabian shamshir by collectors...
Kubur

[A.alnakkas]

Alex, maybe your the one who is not understanding, where did I say that the saif was Indian in origin....no were. I am not "proving" any point, I am explaining why some collectors and dealers etc may consider swords to be saif that you may not. Were are your "reliable sources", I have posted some maybe you can show some references that back up your statements. If a sword was made in India (or Java) in the manner of a saif then it can be called a saif. What is your proof that Stone (and Artzi) are wrong?? Where is your proof that a saif is usually straight(ish)? Lets see some references or is this all from our personal knowledge.


Every sword can be called a saif if you are using Arabic. Just like how every sword can be called sword if you are using English.

The swords you have posted are all Arabic, so naturally an Arab who probably used that sword would still call it 'saif'

As for saifs being straight or straight-ish there are elements of truth in it but I do not know any reference that mentions Arabs using only straight or straight-ish examples. All was used, but mildly curved swords were favoured.

[estcrh]

Estcrh, you may call every sword a Saif... and you'll be right. But please do not manipulate and misrepresent my words! I did not say that Artzi was wrong, and I did not say that Saif is always straight. I said it is (usually) straight. look, out of all Saifs pictured only a few have curved shamshir-like blades, most are almost straight, very slightly curved, this is what I meant by straigh(ish), and this may be wrong term. and also that there's a mistake in Stone's description, even though he stated that Saif is an Arab sword (not Indian), the mistake is in Indian and Javan description of 2 Arab swords. Based on it, you concluded that Saif: "can be Indian in origin" (I quote your own words). I am afraid I cannot help if you need more proof and evidences of said.

Here are Artzi's words, sounds to me like you are saying he is wrong if you insist that saif are usually straight, and while you are complaining about me "misrepresenting" your words maybe you can stop misrepresenting mine. I always love it when someone says that they can not provide any references to back up what they are saying but you just have to believe that they are right and you are wrong...humm.


The word Saif in Arabic is a general name for a curved sword

[A.alnakkas]

While you are replying to Alex here I must say that I find Artzi's description of saif meaning curved sword is incorrect.

Saif does not translate to curved sword. Nor were curved swords the only swords called 'saif'

Every sword, be it curved or not, is called saif in Arabic.

[A.alnakkas]

Btw Eric,

Usamah ibn Almunkidh is an Arab, not 'saracenic' whatever that means.

[ALEX]

Here are Artzi's words, sounds to me like you are saying he is wrong if you insist that saif are usually straight, and while you are complaining about me "misrepresenting" your words maybe you can stop misrepresenting mine. I always love it when someone says that they can not provide any references to back up what they are saying but you just have to believe that they are right and you are wrong...humm.

Estcrh, it is meaningless to play the game of words and discuss nuances of "usually" and "straight-ish", while failing to see the big picture - the differences between Arabian and Indian swords! I am out of this "discussion".

going back to original topic, anyone can translate this:

[estcrh]

While you are replying to Alex here I must say that I find Artzi's description of saif meaning curved sword is incorrect.

Saif does not translate to curved sword. Nor were curved swords the only swords called 'saif'

Every sword, be it curved or not, is called saif in Arabic.

Since no one here can seem to find any references to back up what they are saying I will provide a few more.

I was sent this quote supposedly from "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries", Robert Elgood, 1994. Since I do not have the book I can not verify it this is correct, if anyone does have it maybe they can check and see if it is.

The curved sword or sabre, known as a saif was usually locally made and derived from Persia from where it was imported or from Egypt, Iraq and Syria. These countries imitated the Persian blade form and adopted the technology.

The Army of the Indian Moghuls: Its Organization and Administration, William Irvine, 1903.

[A.alnakkas]

Since no one here can seem to find any references to back up what they are saying I will provide a few more.

I was sent this quote supposedly from "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries", Robert Elgood, 1994. Since I do not have the book I can not verify it this is correct, if anyone does have it maybe they can check and see if it is.



The Army of the Indian Moghuls: Its Organization and Administration, William Irvine, 1903.

Do I need to reference using my own language? Saif is a word much older than the 18th, 19th and 20th century and Elgood here is referring to saifs with Persian blades. And saifs could have curved, straight, shallow curved blades from Europe to India, it will still be called a saif.

Also, he mentioned the term 'sabre' which is the key term here, rather than curved which can be confusing. The arab swords with a shallow curve are still considered sabres.

As for the word 'Tegh' being Arabic, I believe thats completely wrong. Its a Persian word.

It has nothing to do with a hilt type, I am afraid. It has to do with the object as a whole.

Yes, the tulwar hilted sword will be called a saif, by an Arab using the Arabic language. So is the many other types of swords.

[Kubur]

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

[A.alnakkas]

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

Hey Kubur, Eric, and everyone else,

Apologies to anyone I may have offended. Kubur, we are basically on the same line, thus I did not see a necessity to respond to you. Would it count if I nodded as I read your comment?

Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items.

[estcrh]

Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items.I agree completely, this is what I have been saying in my posts. I personally am not making anything up, I am just showing references that may have influenced past uses of the word, whether they are accurate or not. Local armor and weapons terms and use have always been subject to the whims of visitors, not just in Arab countries.

[ALEX]

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!

I don't agree with you about the term "to learn"... these are your words from previous post, Kubur :) But seriously, the problem here is that people arguing about terminology and picking minor differences in descriptions and words based on what they saw or read somewhere. It is meaningless to argue what sword to call a sword, and to not know the difference between them:) I think you know the difference, but getting drugged into semantic.

[estcrh]

Hi Estcrh, Thanks for your comments, much clearer pics than mine I am afraid that I am no very good at taking photos due to vision problems. The tint you can see is brass which must have been originally silvered.
Regards
Miguel
Thanks for your answer Miguel. Your photos are good, I just used an editor to crop them and to make a panoramic image which makes it easer to see all of the photos at one time.

[estcrh]

It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!


Kuber, do you have any references to back up your views?
Let me enter in the "dance", I vote for Alex! But I would like to add something:
Saif is the Arabic word for sword, no more. It can be - and not should be - apply to Arabic swords.

And again the origin of the blade doesn't define a sword.
An Arabian sword with a Persian blade is an Arabian sword, called sometimes saif sometimes Arabian shamshir by collectors...
Kubur

[Kubur]

Kuber, do you have any references to back up your views?

By references, do you mean:

- catalogues like Pinchot or Hales?

- or scientific references like Elgood?

Yes I have "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries".

;)

[estcrh]

Btw Eric,

Usamah ibn Almunkidh is an Arab, not 'saracenic' whatever that means.



Robinson was relaying a quote from Usamah's memoirs, he was describing the equipment of an Emir in Ayyubid times

Saracen
[sar-uh-suh n]
Spell Syllables
Word Origin
noun
1.
History/Historical. a member of any of the nomadic tribes on the Syrian borders of the Roman Empire.
2.
(in later use) an Arab.
3.
a Muslim, especially in the period of the Crusades.
adjective
4.
Also, Saracenic [sar-uh-sen-ik] (Show IPA), Saracenical. of or relating to the Saracens.

From Wikipedia.
Majd ad-Dīn Usāma ibn Murshid ibn ʿAlī ibn Munqidh al-Kināni al-Kalbi[1] (also Usamah, Ousama, etc.; Arabic: أسامة بن منقذ‎) (July 4, 1095 – November 17, 1188[2]) was a medieval Muslim poet, author, faris (knight), and diplomat from the Banu Munqidh dynasty of Shaizar in northern Syria. His life coincided with the rise of several medieval Muslim dynasties, the arrival of the First Crusade, and the establishment of the crusader states.

During and immediately after his life he was most famous as a poet and adib (a "man of letters"). In modern times he is remembered for his Kitab al-I'tibar ("Book of Learning by Example" or "Book of Contemplation"), which contains lengthy descriptions of the crusaders, whom he interacted with on many occasions, and some of whom he considered friends, although he generally saw them as ignorant foreigners. He died in Damascus in 1188, at the age of 93.

[estcrh]

By references, do you mean:

- catalogues like Pinchot or Hales?

- or scientific references like Elgood?

Yes I have "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries".

;)
Any written/printed reference (right or wrong) that helps explain why somone may have certain views on the topic of saif.

Since you have Elgoods book can you verify the quote I posted, does he have anything else to say on the subject ?

[A.alnakkas]

Robinson was relaying a quote from Usamah's memoirs, he was describing the equipment of an Emir in Ayyubid times



From Wikipedia.


Yep, but the key point is that Usamah ibn almunkidh is an Arab from the Banu Munkidh tribe.

[Kubur]

Any written/printed reference (right or wrong) that helps explain why somone may have certain views on the topic of saif.

Since you have Elgoods book can you verify the quote I posted, does he have anything else to say on the subject ?

I will, do you have the page number? Or I have to look at the whole chapter?
I suggest to read also Alexander and Zaki.

[Kubur]

Hey Kubur, Eric, and everyone else,

Apologies to anyone I may have offended. Kubur, we are basically on the same line, thus I did not see a necessity to respond to you. Would it count if I nodded as I read your comment?

Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items.

Ralass Ustaz, the case is closed!
:D

[O. Baskurt]

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt

[estcrh]

I will, do you have the page number? Or I have to look at the whole chapter?
I suggest to read also Alexander and Zaki.I am told that particular quote on the saif may be around page 10.

[Miguel]

WOW, When I posted this thread I never dreamed it would develop as it has. I am only a simple collector who wished confirmation of the sword which was answered in the first couple of replies, amazing how the subject changes but very interesting if not somewhat confusing for someone with only a little knowledge like me. This is what I like about this forum I learn something every time I log on.
I googled all the sword type names i.e. Kilij, Saif and Shamshir etc. to seek clarification but I can tell you that every thing contained in the thread could be found. I think that. for myself, I am better sticking to the name the sword conjures up in my mind otherwise it becomes to confusing.
Thank you everyone for your comments and time.
Regards
Miguel
ps Can anyone translate the blade stamp.

[Kubur]

Hi Miguel,

One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery.
have a look at the beautiful Persian blade!

Best,
Kubur

[Miguel]

Hello Miguel very nice protected piece you have here belongs to time Sultan 2nd Abdülhamid times there was a cavalary unit called Ertuğrul Alayı and this sword we call in Turkey as Ertuğrul Alayı Kılıcı ( Sword of Ertuğrul Alayı) has a definitive crossguard is speacially made for this cavalary unit and hilt is slighly different ( but very smiliar ) than usual pear shaped pommel and blade is different than late period kilij and also used in another regions of Ottoman too. as i see the blade is as well original staying in your piece

with Best regards
O. Baskurt
Hello Mr Baskurt and thank you for your very interesting and informative comments regarding my sword. I would ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Turkish history and would be grateful if you would be kind enough to advise me of the date that Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ruled, also do you know what the blade stamp reads.
Best regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

Hi Miguel,

One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery.
have a look at the beautiful Persian blade!

Best,
Kubur
Hi Kubur, Thanks for sharing this sword it is a beauty. I always have a problem with the patterns different techniques produce on the blade surface, impaired vision problems, and would be grateful if you would tell me if the pattern on your blade is Damascus or Wootz or other.
Best regards
Miguel

[O. Baskurt]

Hello Mr Baskurt and thank you for your very interesting and informative comments regarding my sword. I would ask you to forgive my lack of knowledge of Turkish history and would be grateful if you would be kind enough to advise me of the date that Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ruled, also do you know what the blade stamp reads.
Best regards
Miguel

Well i can not read the stamp because we are not using the same alphabet anymore it might be Arabic writings but i will download picture and will show my historician friends some of them know Ottoman language ( well it is basically nowadays turkish with mixture of persian and arabian but alphabet is Arabic ) about the date end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century it is not very long ago as Kubur showed i think his blade is more older than yours and kubur's sword maybe dressed in that fashion later on because this type used in Ottoman provinces except that unit and as well as some pashas ( lord of Ottoman ) of that time has this type of sword with gold and silver inlays and your blade is really significant type of that unit it has a slightly yelman (false edge) and 2 grooves 1 small 1 big so i can say all examples till nowadays from that unit shows the same exactly the same type with your sword

with my best regards
O. Baskurt

[estcrh]

Hi Miguel,

One very similar, I would say 1850ties, probably from an officer in the artillery.
have a look at the beautiful Persian blade!

Best,
Kubur
I was thinking of the same sword, here are a couple different images that may show the damascus blade a little better.

[Miguel]

Well i can not read the stamp because we are not using the same alphabet anymore it might be Arabic writings but i will download picture and will show my historician friends some of them know Ottoman language ( well it is basically nowadays turkish with mixture of persian and arabian but alphabet is Arabic ) about the date end of 19th century and beginning of 20th century it is not very long ago as Kubur showed i think his blade is more older than yours and kubur's sword maybe dressed in that fashion later on because this type used in Ottoman provinces except that unit and as well as some pashas ( lord of Ottoman ) of that time has this type of sword with gold and silver inlays and your blade is really significant type of that unit it has a slightly yelman (false edge) and 2 grooves 1 small 1 big so i can say all examples till nowadays from that unit shows the same exactly the same type with your sword

with my best regards
O. Baskurt

Hello Mr Baskurt, Thank you very much for your reply. The information you have provided has been most informative, all I need now to put "the icing on the cake" is a translation of the stamp. Thank you once again.
Best regards
Miguel

[Miguel]

I was thinking of the same sword, here are a couple different images that may show the damascus blade a little better.

Absolutely Wonderful sword, what a beautiful blade.
Regards
Miguel

[O. Baskurt]

about the stamp it is maker's insignia i guess one answer i get is it is written "Muhammed or Mehmet" in the middle of stamp but of course they said it is hard to read can you maybe provide a better photo with 90 degree angle to it ?

[estcrh]

I will, do you have the page number? Or I have to look at the whole chapter?
I suggest to read also Alexander and Zaki.
Kuber, any luck finding that quote in Elgoods book? It should be on or near page 10 from what I was told.

[Kubur]

Kuber, any luck finding that quote in Elgoods book? It should be on or near page 10 from what I was told.

Hi,
yes the chapter on the swords starts page 10.
But there are a lot of things. What are you looking for exactly??
Best,

[estcrh]

Hi,
yes the chapter on the swords starts page 10.
But there are a lot of things. What are you looking for exactly??
Best,
Can you verify if this quote was correctly copied and are there any other brief mentions of saif? Thanks!

The curved sword or sabre, known as a saif was usually locally made and derived from Persia from where it was imported or from Egypt, Iraq and Syria. These countries imitated the Persian blade form and adopted the technology.

[Kubur]

Can you verify if this quote was correctly copied and are there any other brief mentions of saif? Thanks!

Hi,
Sorry for the dealy that's correct and its page 10.
Then he talks about the nimcha. But this story of saif and shamshir is much more complicated. For me the sabre is something from the East, coming to Middle East with the Moghols at the end of the 13th c.
best,
Kubur

[Kubur]

Hi Miguel,
Here is mine, less sexy than yours but still Ottoman end of 19th or very early 20th c.
Best Kubur

[estcrh]

Hi,
Sorry for the dealy that's correct and its page 10.
Then he talks about the nimcha. But this story of saif and shamshir is much more complicated. For me the sabre is something from the East, coming to Middle East with the Moghols at the end of the 13th c.
best,
Kubur
Thanks Kuber, there is a lot of conflicting references on saif, hard to tell which is correct. As for the introduction of curved swords here is a reference.

Mamluk Costume: A Survey, Leo Ary Mayer, 1952.

[estcrh]

Hi Miguel,
Here is mine, less sexy than yours but still Ottoman end of 19th or very early 20th c.
Best Kubur
Kuber, a nice and rare example, the end of an era, yours must be close to the time period of the transition to a more European military sword.

[Miguel]

about the stamp it is maker's insignia i guess one answer i get is it is written "Muhammed or Mehmet" in the middle of stamp but of course they said it is hard to read can you maybe provide a better photo with 90 degree angle to it ?

Hello Mr Baskurt,

I have only just noticed that I have missed your last reply and would like to apologise for this oversight, I hope you did not think that I ignored it deliberately.
I can only put it down to getting old and forgetful and trust you will accept my apology. Thank you for the information re the blade stamp and I will try and provide a clearer photo of it once I have received my PC from the repairers and it is up and running.
Best regards
Miguel

[O. Baskurt]

Hello Mr Baskurt,

I have only just noticed that I have missed your last reply and would like to apologise for this oversight, I hope you did not think that I ignored it deliberately.
I can only put it down to getting old and forgetful and trust you will accept my apology. Thank you for the information re the blade stamp and I will try and provide a clearer photo of it once I have received my PC from the repairers and it is up and running.
Best regards
Miguel

Hi Miguel nope don't worry at all that i didn't offend :)
by the way i am waiting for a clearer photo to see i will check the forum time by time
with my respects
O. Baskurt

[Miguel]

Hello Mr Baskurt,

I have only just noticed that I have missed your last reply and would like to apologise for this oversight, I hope you did not think that I ignored it deliberately.
I can only put it down to getting old and forgetful and trust you will accept my apology. Thank you for the information re the blade stamp and I will try and provide a clearer photo of it once I have received my PC from the repairers and it is up and running.
Best regards
Miguel
Hello Mr Baskurt,
I have now had my PC returned but regret that I cannot obtain a clearer image of the stamp, probably due to my ineptitude with a camera, sorry but it looks like the stamp we've got will have to suffice.
Regards
Miguel

[Sylektis]

What about this one?

[Kubur]

What about this one?

Hi Sylektis,
I would say the same family, second part of 19th c.
Completely Turkish ottoman, even if it belongs to your Greek ancestors.
;)
PS: Your photos in the other thread on belts are amazing. Thanks.
Kubur

[Sylektis]

In Greece, we make no weapons,we prefer to decorate them.
(Make art, no war!)
:D

[Miguel]

What a beautiful Kalij, thank you for sharing.
Miguel

[O. Baskurt]

Hello Mr Baskurt,
I have now had my PC returned but regret that I cannot obtain a clearer image of the stamp, probably due to my ineptitude with a camera, sorry but it looks like the stamp we've got will have to suffice.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Miguel that's alright whenever you are suitable we can return onto it to make deep research
with my respects
O. Baskurt

[eftihis]

Scabbard parts from 3 swords of this type, found in Greece.