Are these Bidri?

[harrywagner]

These are two Indian daggers that I think are vintage. They are different styles, and made at different times, but they share some common traits. E. Jaiwant Paul, in his book "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India" discusses a decoration technique named Bidri. I am wondering if that is what these two are?

Harry

[harrywagner]

This time with the photos. I hope!

[Battara]

First of all, these daggers both look like later work to me.

Secondly, I believe bidri work is a form of what is also called koftgari.

[Kubur]

Hi Harry,

Yes, they are very recent low Indian production. You have plenty on epray.
In the 1970ties they had big factories around Mombay, now they have some to the North too.

Bidri work is different from koftgari. What we can see here is a low quality koftgari: they apply silver decoration on cold metal. Mostly like a painting, normaly the koftgari should be stuck to etched metal.
In the bidri work, they cover the designs and parts that they want to let in silver. Normally covered with clay, then they put the piece in an oven. The non-protected parts will become black. The protected parts will be uncovered later and will stay bright shinny silver.
I hope that I'm understandable...


:o

[harrywagner]

Thanks guys. I have seen some of the "vintage" work coming from India, and neither of these fit into that category. The one with the cat's head pommel has been in the posession of a Polish collector who I have bought from several times before. The other was part of an estate sale on Cape Cod. Supposedly it's previous owner bought it on a trip there in the 1930s. I believe it.

Battara, the silver work is damascene, or koftgari, if you prefer. Bidri is a technique used to blacken steel.

Kubur, you may be right about that not being Bidri, but the steel has definately been blackened in some way. The koftgari is quite good. It stands slightly proud on the both pieces, except for the band around the neck of the one with the cat's head pommel, which is not proud, but flush with the steel.

Harry

[ALEX]

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

[harrywagner]

Kubur is correct on both age and technique observations. These are recent decorative, aka tourist items.

The "blackening" in Bidri work is not related to dark/black background on coftgari. These are different techniques and methods.

Harry,
These daggers are exactly like those you referred to as "vintage work coming from India", and quality of coftgari or technique has nothing to do with it.
Do you believe they're 1930's based on previous owner's words alone or do you have at least one reputable reference to a similar item being described as such?

Hi Alex,
Yes. I am asserting that these were both made first half 20th. I make this assertion based on having examined them, and quite a few of the more modern imitations.

Harry

[harrywagner]

Here is what the recent Idian daggers look like. It is a completely different animal.

[ALEX]

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

[harrywagner]

Yes they are different of course, but there was reason when I mentioned: "the quality or technique has nothing to do with it". They are still of the same time period, perhaps +/- 10-20 years but that is irrelevant.

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

[Sajen]

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

[harrywagner]

Hello Harrywagner,

I don't know much about Indian weapons nor I know about the technics but let me ask this question: Why you post it for discussion when you don't have an interest in arguing?

Regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

[RSWORD]

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

[harrywagner]

Do the scabbards have a wooden core or are they hollow? If they do have a wooden core would you mind taking a picture of it.

They have wood cores, with a small bit of felt on top. It would be great if you can help us with this. Thanks.

[Battara]

Thank you folks for correcting me.

It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work.......

And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you. :)

[RSWORD]

They have wood cores, with a small bit of felt on top. It would be great if you can help us with this. Thanks.

The reason I asked the question was to see the patina on the wood core, if there was a core, to help determine age. The wood looks fairly new. Take a smell of it. Does it smell like freshly cut wood or does it smell real musky? A blade that has been around since the 1930's that has been oiled regularly will deposit some of that oil in the wood along with dust, dirt, grime, etc. after a very long time it creates that musky smell. Old things have that smell. New things tend to have a newer smell. Disregarding the oral provenance from the auction and strictly looking at the knife in question my guess would be that it is 30-40 years old. The silver koftgari seems to be decent work and it is not as flamboyant as very recent more mass produced Indian work. If you enjoy and appreciate them don't worry too much if they are 1930's or 1970's. In another 30-40 years they will be antiques for the next generation. Imagine soldiers in the Philippines in the 1940's buying a sword from circa 1900-1910. It would have been 30-40 years old at that time. Now, collectors enjoy and cherish many pieces from that time period. Collect what you like. Take care of them and someone in the future will determine their collectibility at that time.

[harrywagner]

Thank you folks for correcting me.

It would seem that there are perhaps two different periods for the Indian modern work.......

And I agree......let's keep this civil - thank you. :)

Thank you. Please feel free to help us by saying what dates you think these were made. I won't be offended. This was never about how old these were to begin with. It was about their decoration technique. Somehow we have gotten side-tracked. However, now that we are here, I will say I believe these are not recent manufacture based on the blade. My two look like old Wootz. Everything I see on that auction site has what I would call 'pattern' steel.

My apologies if I have offended.

[harrywagner]

Thank you. Please feel free to help us by saying what dates you think these were made. I won't be offended. This was never about how old these were to begin with. It was about their decoration technique. Somehow we have gotten side-tracked. However, now that we are here, I will say I believe these are not recent manufacture based on the blade. My two look like old Wootz. Everything I see on that auction site has what I would call 'pattern' steel.

My apologies if I have offended.

Sorry, I think our posts must haven gotten crossed in the mail. I appreciate your help. Thank you.

[Gavin Nugent]

Harry,

Bidri work involves the carving/chiseling of surfaces as does Zar Buland.
My understanding is the Bidri applications are finished flush with the surface of the object and the Zar Buland is raised well above the surface.

Edit note, Koftgari is something again just so there is no confusion.

Indian Art in Delhi, 1903 by George Watt explains the many different varieties of each.

Gavin

[ALEX]

Thanks Alex. You are, of course, free to think that. I disagree, but have no interest in arguing about it.

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

[Gavin Nugent]

Without getting too involved in the age factor, I have specifically refrained from pointing anyone to any one commercial manufacturers site, but instead have provided the Google image search which outlines the type discussed if further delving wishes to be done.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=indian+damascus+manufacturer&espv=2&biw=1097&bih=559&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIiPqpn-TGyAIViDuICh1X9QVb&dpr=1.75

Gavin

[harrywagner]

Thanks Gavin (and others). That is helpful. For the record. I am the one that asserted these were first half 20th, not the sellers. So I have no hard feeling if they are more recent, as has been suggested. My Polish friend sold me the one with the cat pommel. He dates that one to the 1990s. I honestly don't care. The age of an item is not that important to me. I am mostly interested in Islamic and Oriental bladed weapons and the basic design of many of these weapons has not changed in eons. For insurance purposes I will date the cat pommel to the 1990s and the other to the 70s.

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

[Kubur]

I have to say that this entire discussion has left a sour taste in my mouth. This site is a great resource for collectors, but I will consider carefully before I post here again.

Sincerely,
Harry

Dear Harry,

I had the same problem in the past, with one or two objects.
Some comments were right, some were completely wrong.
It is a forum of connoisseurs, no more, but even specialists can be wrong.
Second point, why dissociate local users objects and travelers or tourists objects? Most of our objects are from the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th c. There were few tourists and travellers, not like now.
It's clear that the craftmen who did these objects were very skilled and with a deep knowledge. They probably worked for both wealthy local elite and rich travellers. Or even the objects were produced to satisfy both local and travellers. No one can say! I just know that nowadays the techniques are lost or almost and objects for tourists are of a very low quality if not made in China!! My comments can be applied to daggers as Qajar axes and other objets from the end of the 19th c. The most important is your own feeling. It's not important if these daggers are from the mid-20th c.

Kind regards,
Kubur

[harrywagner]

Hi Harry,
It seems your version of "civil discussion" is to hear the "opinions of experienced collectors" only if it agrees with yours. You're seeking to confirm production date, but switching to comparing quality to leverage your point. Comparing quality is fundamental mistake when determining the age. it goes beyond that, and this is my point. In this example, there is no need to look further than the shiny clean velvet at the scabbards' throat. I am not even going to comment on the blade "looking like" wootz. You need to study the books, not the auction site, and get enough practical experience to know the difference.

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

[ALEX]

Harry, I am sorry you feel this way, but it is you who made a decision, not me. You're missing the point and taking it personally and this is not good way to learn.

[Kubur]

Alex I agree with you about litterature and books.
I dont agree with you about the term "to learn".
Harry is not a student and you are not a specialist and even if you or me were specialists. I don't like members who patronise new members. To be new members doesnt mean that they are new collectors, and even if they were, i dont think that is a problem.
Harry I don't feel that i belong to a club, i just share objects and knowledge with some very nice guys on this forum.
You shouldnt leave this forum.

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,
If I wanted to fight I would join the military. I'm interested in civil discussion, and in the opinions of experienced collectors. That doesn't mean I will believe everything I am told. This is especially true for items I own, that I can pick up, turn over and examine with magnification.

Harry

Hello Harry,

I think you understand me wrong. I don't want to suggest a fight but a discussion. When you are certain with your opinion show why. I don't want to attack you with my post. But when I am positive about something I try to explain why.

Best regards,
Detlef

[ALEX]

Kubur, I agree. It is ok to just enjoy and discuss the items, not everyone needs to learn or study them. But specific question was posted about age and quality, and this is what I commented on. Are we here to please each other and become a Facebook community with only "Like" option, or provide true and constructive feedback? I see this Forum is becoming FB-ish, so this is what "ticked" me. I apologize for being harsh, and also think Harry should not leave.

[Sajen]

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner

Dear Harry,

I really think that is the wrong way, sorry. Please don't leave this forum. So far I can judge it is Alex a member with a good knowledge about Indian weapons and he has only given his opinion about your both daggers. Show him why you disagree with his opinion.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Miguel]

Thank you Alex for reminding me why I don't join clubs, fraternities, etc. I have been on the fence about being a member of this site and your kind words have decided the question for me perfectly.

Admins - please cancel my account on this site. I am finished here. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Harry Wagner
Hi Harry,
I have followed this thread with interest as I have a few pieces with similar decoration to yours and am amazed at how the discussion has ended. I really think that you have over reacted as there was nothing said by any of the participants, in my opinion, to provoke you into such a reaction. If it is not to late I would urge you to reconsider as I think by leaving the forum you will be the loser and for what?
Hoping that you will reconsider.
Miguel

[kahnjar1]

I have to agree with Miguel....nothing here to get uptight about...
Stu

[harrywagner]

I did not expect to be back here to write this, but what can I say. I love my wife. She's been away taking care of her Mother and returned today to find me in a funk. This thread has bothered me more than I thought possible and when I explained to her what was bothering me she reminded me that this was an opportunity to do some good. So I will try. I've not read what has elapsed since my last post. I'm done with that. I really only have one thing to say and that is this:

This is a hobby for me. It is supposed to be fun. I suspect that this site is more important to some members than just a hobby, and we should respect that. It seems to me that the continued success of this site, and any other public forum, is dependent upon attracting and retaining new members. We should try harder to play nice. It's important. Alex, I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone else here. Quite the opposite. I am in your debt.

Now I really am taking my ball and going home. Quitting is one of the few things I do really well and I would hate to screw that up.

Harry

[ALEX]

Harry, good to have you back! I look forward to more of your posts. This is a great place to exchange ideas and learn, as inevitably we all learn one way or another). There are many great people here, it is a hobby for most of us, and many share their joy, passion and knowledge. And arguing one’s point is a good part of it, as Detlef nicely mentioned earlier.
As RSword said, it is important to enjoy the items, and more so if you feel it belongs to your collection and fit your collecting taste. I must admit, I have similar daggers like yours, but miniatures. I got them 10+ years ago and I like them as decorations. It is great that you’re observing the details and comparing quality. you right these daggers are not made yesterday, but I do not think they are early 1900’s, although you see them being described as such on some commercial and auction sites. As RSword and Kubur mentioned, they are late 1900’s. and both made at the same time, perhaps a few years apart, but this is really insignificant in historical realm. The third example, the Jambiya, is a crude repro, it has surface application similar to applying paint via template, it is not coftgari. The blades cannot be wootz on such items, they are always simple manipulated (pattern weld, layered, etc) steel, with similar type of applied "cartouche". The scabbard decoration is never bidri. Bidri uses carved inlay to fill in silver. Coftgari is surface overlay. The technique is really the same since early ages, this is why you see “similar” coftgari in Paul’s book, but the forms have changed, that is important to notice! and these daggers hardly fit into “Islamic arms” category.
See you down the road...

[estcrh]

These are two Indian daggers that I think are vintage. They are different styles, and made at different times, but they share some common traits. E. Jaiwant Paul, in his book "Arms and Armour: Traditional Weapons of India" discusses a decoration technique named Bidri. I am wondering if that is what these two are?

Harry

This is a perfect example of how posting good, clear, detailed images in the initial post would be most helpful as well as saving a lot of guess work by forum members.