African knights - African armour collection thread

[LinusLinothorax]

Hey guys,

i am deeply intrugued by the idea that Africa was probably the last continent that used knight-ish like warriors in actual combat, with heavy cavalry facing modern machine guns in the late 19th and early 20th century.

What i know is that there are tons of paintings, photographies and archaeological finds out there, but yet no one made a big collection thread where everyone can posts his pictures with heavily armoured african warriors.
For me it doesnt matter of what material the armour is: It can be metal, quilted or just leather. Also the condition aswell as the dating doesnt matter: It can be an ancient fragment, a medieval painting or a recent photo.
The only thing that really counts is that atleast the torso is covered by the armour and that the armour is not entirely ceremonial but was actuall used in combat.

I will start with Sudan:

1) Scalearmour on the Meroitic king Tarekeniwal:
2) Post-Meroitic hidearmour from Qasr Ibrim:
3) Medieval Nubian warrior in quilted armour from Faras:
4) Chainmail fragment from Soba, the capital of the Nubian kingdom of Alodia:
5) A Nubian palace guard, early 20th century (Does anyone knows more about this picture? What kingdom was he part of? Cant be Sennar because the painting is from 1902):
6) Cavalrymen from the Nuba mountains, claid in chainmail armour (Early 20th century):

[Robert]

Hello LinusLinothorax and welcome to the forum. Unfortunately I have had to edit your first posting here. Please download your photos directly to the server as per forum rules.

Best,
Robert

[estcrh]

You can find a lot of armor images from both the Sudan and Khedival Egypt from the mid to late 1800s here.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/the-khedives-of-egypt/

Sudanese armor, European (English) in origin domed helmet with a spike finial, long camail terminating in three points, woven of heavy wound (split) links with original hand-quilted lining which protects the wearer’s chest, shoulders and back, hauberk probably 17th century Persian with rows of punched and riveted rings the original leather collar intact, a quality kaskara broadsword, 17th -19th century. Most likely worn by a follower of the Mahdi or his successor Abdullah Ibn-Mohammed during the late 1800s revolt against Khedival Egypt.

[Jim McDougall]

Linus, welcome to the forum, and thank you for bringing up an indeed intriguing topic!
It is true that many warrior groups in North Africa followed medieval warfare and weaponry remarkably in anachronistically surreal character. The use of mail, and various forms of armour, weapons and cavalry tactics had evolved over centuries in certain Sahelian kingdoms such as Bornu. These styles and weapons were likely brought into being through the Mamluk dynasties in Egypt and Syria, with weaponry and armour being diffused into Sudan then toward Chad and Nigeria. Certainly many of these kinds of items were carried through trade routes from European sources into Africa as well. With the volume of sword blades known to have come in, there must have been other equipment included as well.

By the time of the Mahdist period and the subsequent campaigns ending with Omdurman, there were indeed cavalry for the Egyptian Khedive he called his 'iron men'. Surprisingly, much of the mail worn by these warriors was actually produced in Birmingham, England. In time it was realized that this mail, when hit by bullets became shrapnel itself and maximized wounds.

Still, as far as ceremonially, mail was still very much 'parade oriented', just as in India and many other colonially occupied ethnographic regions.
I believe mail was still produced in Omdurman in times as late as the 1960s and think it was Arkell who wrote on this.
I can recall in one grouping of Sudanese armour, there was at least one helmet which incredibly was using a spoon from a silverware setting as a noseguard or decoration.

For the record though, the wearing of mail was not confined only to Africa in relatively modern times. In Caucasian Georgia, during the early years of WWI, Russian forces were astounded to see armoured horsemen ride into Tiflis, with helmets and mail as if right out of the Crusades. They were Khevsur warriors who were still wearing these armours into the 1930s.

There are many other instances as well of these incredibly out of time instances, and hope to see others brought in.
Great topic!!!

[LinusLinothorax]

Hello LinusLinothorax and welcome to the forum. Unfortunately I have had to edit your first posting here. Please download your photos directly to the server as per forum rules.

Best,
Robert
Ah, sorry about that. Now they should be properly attached :)

[estcrh]

Still, as far as ceremonially, mail was still very much 'parade oriented', just as in India and many other colonially occupied ethnographic regions.


Jim, what makes you say this? Riveted mail from Indian, Persia and the Ottoman Empire was some of the strongest mail ever made, and in hand to hand combat it would keep you from being cut to pieces by a sword, mail of any type was never meant to be a defense against firearms.

In Japan, when traditional armor had been stored away unused for generations, mail armor was still worn by samurai right up to the end.

Much of the fighting in the Sudan involved intense hand to hand combat, I am sure that good quality riveted mail was highly valued, even the locally produced Sudanese butted mail was a good defense against a sword.

Some very late Indo-Persian mail was butted instead of being riveted, but there was still plenty of the old riveted mail to go around.

[estcrh]

5) A Nubian palace guard, early 20th century (Does anyone knows more about this picture? What kingdom was he part of? Cant be Sennar because the painting is from 1902):


The Nubian Palace Guard by Ludwig Deutsch (Vienna, 1855 - Paris, 1935) is one of a series of similar paintings that are based in 1800s Khedival Egypt, usually Cairo, a popular destination for orientalist artists, Deutsch is said to have visited Cairo several times in the late 1800s. This painting is said to be dated 1892.

Here is another similar painting by Deutsch "Palace Guard".

[estcrh]

By the time of the Mahdist period and the subsequent campaigns ending with Omdurman, there were indeed cavalry for the Egyptian Khedive he called his 'iron men'. Surprisingly, much of the mail worn by these warriors was actually produced in Birmingham, England. In time it was realized that this mail, when hit by bullets became shrapnel itself and maximized wounds.



It is very hard to pin down exact dates as to when specific armor types were used in Khedival Egypt, there are a few images, but I do not know of any photographs showing Khedive soldiers wearing armor.

At some point in time certain mounted soldiers of the Khedives forces switched to French made, heavy steel helmets and cuirasses, they appear to have been worn between the mid to late 1800s. Since Khedival Egypt was still nominally Ottoman this armor could be called the last Ottoman armor.

[estcrh]

6) Cavalrymen from the Nuba mountains, claid in chainmail armour (Early 20th century):
I cleaned up your photo a bit.

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, what makes you say this? Riveted mail from Indian, Persia and the Ottoman Empire was some of the strongest mail ever made, and in hand to hand combat it would keep you from being cut to pieces by a sword, mail of any type was never meant to be a defense against firearms.

In Japan, when traditional armor had been stored away unused for generations, mail armor was still worn by samurai right up to the end.

Much of the fighting in the Sudan involved intense hand to hand combat, I am sure that good quality riveted mail was highly valued, even the locally produced Sudanese butted mail was a good defense against a sword.

Some very late Indo-Persian mail was butted instead of being riveted, but there was still plenty of the old riveted mail to go around.


I was referring more to the Sudanese instance, and even then of course it would defer a degree of impact from swords etc........so what I should have qualified was that while much of the mail was ceremonially oriented, of course there was substantial mail in the contexts you mention which could offer some protection. Of course whenever firearms came into the equation that was pretty much all bets off. Thanks for the correction.

[LinusLinothorax]

Great pics estcrh. This is what i would like to see here in this thread :)

[eftihis]

I bought these 2 mail shirts described as "PROBABLY OTTOMAN 18TH/19TH CENTURY, LATER ADAPTED FOR USE IN NORTH AFRICA", "....formed of alternating rows of welded and riveted rings of circular-section wire, with a centrally-divided neck-opening, a pair of short sleeves and a short skirt centrally divided at both its front and rear, the upper edge of the neck-opening extended upwards during working life with a strip of mail of of alternating rows of welded and riveted..."
I see they have a leather covered neck area as shown in the photo of the turban wearing horsemen.

[estcrh]

I bought these 2 mail shirts described as "PROBABLY OTTOMAN 18TH/19TH CENTURY, LATER ADAPTED FOR USE IN NORTH AFRICA", "...

Nice find, they look to be in good condition do you have a weight and length for them, can you post some close up images of the links, that would be the only way to determine who actually made them.

[eftihis]

Ι dont have the weight handy,i have some hopefully better pghotos, if they are not sufficient, i will make new ones

[LinusLinothorax]

Hm, i have no idea why the order of my images in my first post is suddenly mixed up. After the first picture the order of images should be the other way around.


Anyway, here are other ancient fragments of armour. All of them come from the Sudanic post-Meroitic period again, means the time after the kingdom of Meroe vanished (Around 350-370 AD) and are made of ox-hide (With one exception, which is probably made of crocodile leather). In that time the Nubians became the most dominant people in Sudan and founded own cultures/chiefdoms. The most well known is Nobadia, which stretched roughly from the first to the third Nile-cataract. The mass of found hide-armour fragments (It is assumed that all Nobadian chiefs/kings were burdied in such armours) seems to imply that hide-armour was the dominant armour of that era, allthough Cassius Dio mentions hide-armour already in the third century AD, when it was used by the nomadian Blemmyes living in the desert east of the Nle valley.
Personaly, i assume that these leather armours were the lightest and most archaic form of ancient Sudanese body armour.


1) Hide armour fragment from a royal Nobadian burial in Qustul
2) Nobadian hide armour from Gebel Adda, probably crocodile
3) Nobadian hide armour with lead studs, Qustul (I think)
4) Summary of a found hide armour in Karanog (Which sadly was never
photographed)
5) The supposed Nobadian graffito showing king Silko, very likely wearing
decorated hide armour

Edit: Hm, and again the pictures are depicted the other way around.

[estcrh]

Ι dont have the weight handy,i have some hopefully better pghotos, if they are not sufficient, i will make new onesIf you can get a clear image from the area below the neck that would be good, necks were sometimes added at a later date and the mail is not the same type as the body. A clear image as close as you can get would be needed, mail is deceptively hard to photograph and a clear view of the rivet area is helpful.

The common types of mail in a hauberk with that type of collar would be Indian and Ottoman, but recently European hauberks has been found with the same type of collar, they were exported to the Middle East and India etc. Auction houses are usually not knowledgable enough to know what mail is from what culture. Recently a riveted mail hauberk that came from India was sold by a very knowledgable dealer, it had the same type of collar, when examined it turned out to be a very old European hauberk with a very rare type of mail from around the 1400s.

Indian mail is usually quite identifiable as is Ottoman mail when you know what to look for, European mail as well, there are differences in manufacture that can usually be detected but the images must be good enough to see the details of the individual links.

The inside of the links are important as well, Indian and Ottoman mail have round rivets which were peened on the inside and outside of the link. European mail made after a certain time period used a rivet that was wedge shaped so the rivet looked round in the front of the link but at the back of the link the rivet was rectangle shaped.

I made the example below of clearly photographed mail. On the left is mail from an Indian riveted mail hauberk from around 1700, on the right is mail from an Ottoman mail and plate cuirass (krug) from around 1500. Both types are made from alternating rows of solid links and riveted links. The differences are quite clear, the Indian mail has solid links that are very well shaped with straight sides, the Ottoman mail has solid links that are more flat and they have a hexagon shape. Anyone with knowledge of riveted mail types would have no problem identifying these.

The last image is of newly made reproduction European wedge riveted mail. Notice that it has no solid links, these were eliminated from European riveted mail around the1400s. The front of the link looks round but as you can see, the back side has a rectangular shape, on antique European mail the back side of the links are often so worn they look completely smooth with no sign of the rivet showing.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Nubian Palace Guard by Ludwig Deutsch (Vienna, 1855 - Paris, 1935) is one of a series of similar paintings that are based in 1800s Khedival Egypt, usually Cairo, a popular destination for orientalist artists, Deutsch is said to have visited Cairo several times in the late 1800s. This painting is said to be dated 1892.

Here is another similar painting by Deutsch "Palace Guard".


There are many paintings of the subject......The figure of a palace guard in full costume was a very popular theme for the European public. - See more at: http://ludwigdeutsch.blogspot.com/2007/10/nubian-guard-1895.html#sthash.m55uWWeN.dpuf

and at https://www.google.com/search?q=Nubian+Palace+Guard&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAWoVChMI06qZhrKByAIVwdUaCh1BNwKk&biw=1366&bih=643

[estcrh]

2) Post-Meroitic hide armour from Qasr Ibrim:


I have never seen this armor before, any idea how old it is?

[LinusLinothorax]

I have never seen this armor before, any idea how old it is?
Something between 1650 and 1472 years.

[Jim McDougall]

Some very interesting material being shared and discussed here, and has prompted me to look back into this topic as it has been some time since last involved with it. The notes are from material which prompted my comments earlier, and after reviewing much of it supports most of the observations here in the thread so just wanted to add.

From H.Russell Robinson , "Oriental Armour" (1967):
Re: Sudanese armour during the Mahdiya,

P. 84: "...the better armed emirs wore rounded helmets, with an aventail of riveted mail and a heavy fixed nasal. "
"...over the body they wore a long quilted jibbah either with or without a mail shirt over it".
"...the mail shirts were all made on the same pattern; short sleeves, round neck opening, and long skirt split to the level of the fork at front and back,
all examples of these shirts show very considerable wear and much patching with crude links of wire or split rings of modern European manufacture.
I would suggest these are generally of old Arab make. All of the rings are riveted except in the case of later repairs, and many are so worn with use that they could be broken with the fingers without effort".

P.85:
Re: various materials brought back from the Mahdist campaigns by British forces.
Among the items was one of the helmets for the Khedives bodyguards which was made in Birmingham. This equipment apparently was completed with a mail shirt made of split rings, which when struck by 'Sudanese' bullets the brittle rings shattered and caused appalling wounds. It appears when the Sudanese captured these items they would only keep and use the helmets- preferring their old mail shirts to these 'new' ones so fraught with risk.

Here it is most interesting that although the old mail was severely worn and poorly repaired in many cases, it was still better than this disastrous type which seems to have been produced in England along with the helmets. I would note these English helmets are not like those pictured here in the thread with the arrow nasal and star in disc etc. Those as well as the cuirass are as noted apparently French. The French had been notably present in Khedival Egypt so this is not surprising.

It does seem these type helmets of the 'French' cuirassier type actually predate the c. 1844 date often assigned to them, and are noted in drawings slightly earlier. They are seen in illustrations of Khedival bodyguard cuirassiers in the Crimea in 1854.

Apparently by the 1880s there had been some deviation in degree or perhaps incidental license by an artist, as in the French " Le Drapeau" (July,1882) two members of the Khedives bodyguards are seen wearing mail rather than the cuirass.
Another case in Illustrated London News (1882) there are two Circassian irregulars listed as Khedival bodyguards.

I located the article "Making of Mail at Omdurman" by A.J.Arkell ("Kush" Vol. IV , p83-85, 1956) which was cited by Robinson in noting that apparently in the 1940s, mail was still readily produced in Sudan....however it was noted it was using butted rings only, not the riveted.
Arkell notes that mail from outside Sudan was imported considerably prior to 1885, and that virtually every melik (chief) had from 2 to 3 hundred suits of mail on hand in those times. It was discussed about where this volume of mail was obtained and Sir James Mann thought it had come from Syria or Arabia, however the renowned Lawrence of Arabia had been unable to find evidence to support that claim. Arkell indicates he thinks it came mostly from India.


Returning to Robinson (op.cit. p86) it is noted that in Nigerian regions, two groups are known for their medieval knight character in their warriors, those from Bornu and the Begharmi. In these instances Robinson suggests the mail shirts worn are of considerable quality and appear of Arab make. With that he suggests Mamluk possibility of origin.

It would appear that indeed there has remained in Africa, from the Saharan kingdoms of Nigeria to the Sudan, a considerable tradition of mail armour being worn. While in the times of the campaigns the armour extant had been brought in volume for some time, and had often become worn and field repaired, it does seem to have been viably worn in combat.

In later times of course, the traditional use of mail in parade or ceremonial instances seems well known (typically of the butted form), however earlier armour with some antiquity certainly may well have been used in varying instances far into the 20th century.

[Ian]

I was fascinated by the armor shown by LinusLinothorax and reproduced in this thread below. It struck a chord about a race of people in the Sudan who were described in antiquity by the Romans as "headless." This race was said to occupy the area during the Post-Meroitic Period (350–543 CE).

Here is some material from a Polish Museum web site (http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/en/exhibitions/permanent/archaeology-of-the-sudan/post-meroitic-period-and-x-group/):

The Post-Meroitic Period and X-Group (350 – 543 AD)

The fall of the Empire
Although the last Meroitic monarch known by name was Yesbokheamani (283 – 300 AD), 30 years later the dead rulers were still buried in the Northern cemetery of Meroe. On the other hand, an inscription of an Ethiopian king Aezana, discovered in the city of Axum and dated to c. 350 AD, reports a war with the Noba people and the conquest of Al-Butana. Probably at that time the kingdom of Meroe no longer existed. Whether the hegemony of Meroe collapsed due to an internal crisis, or whether its fall was partly brought about y raiding nomads from the desert, is a question that cannot be decisively answered…

The nomads build tumuli…
The next two centuries, the so-called Post-Meroitic period, is one of the most mysterious and least recognized periods in the history of the Sudan. Monumental architecture and knowledge of writing disappeared altogether, and in the belt between Sennar and the Fourth Cataract there appear earth burial tumuli of the Tanqasi culture, today the only legible remains of the Noba nomad tribes who arrived at this region from the territories of modern Kordofan. An especially large and richly equipped burial ground was discovered in el-Hobagi.

The Blemmyes – a wild headless race
The Meroitic inhabitants of Lower Nubia encountered arrivals using the Nubian language. These included the Nobatae who in 296 were apparently entrusted by Emperor Diocletian with the defense of the southern Egyptian frontier, and the Blemmyes from Eastern Desert, scornfully described by Pliny as "a wild headless race with eyes and ears rising directly from their shoulders." The latter were particularly devoted to the old Egyptian religion and each year would go on a mass pilgrimage to the sanctuary of Isis on the Island of Philae. The specific civilization that emerged from the fusion of these elements is named the X-Group or Ballana culture.

The nameless kings from Ballana and Qustul
It was in Ballana, and also at nearby Qustul, that the cemeteries of huge tumuli with burials of tribal rulers were found. The dead were equipped with immense splendor – the burial gifts included breathtaking crowns that used the symbolism of ancient Egyptian motifs, and highly precious silver vessels imported from territories of the Roman Empire. The political significance of those nameless kings is highly obscure. Probably we shall never know whether the two Nobatian rulers, Silko and Kharamazeye, mentioned in the inscriptions on the temple walls in Kalabsha, had also been buried in one of the Ballana tumulus graves…

So no less an authority than Pliny described the Blemmyes as "a wild headless race with eyes and ears rising directly from their shoulders," and later artists depicted them as very strange indivudals with their mouths and nose arising in their chest (see drawing below).

As far as I know, there have never been found any skeletal remains of such individuals. However, in the 3rd C the Blemmyes were a belligerent group who fought with everyone in the area, including the Romans, and likely wore their body armor in encounters with other groups. The picture shown by Linus Linothorax indicates a type of body armor that extended from "the eyes to the knees of the wearer." You can see that this is an accurate description by the positioning of the arm holes, which are quite low. Now if the Romans only saw these people in their armor, it would indeed appear that their eyes were at the level of their shoulders, and therefore their mouths and noses must be in their chests. The term Blemmyes comes from the Latin blemmyae meaning "headless" (cf. Greek akephaloi). The picture below shows a 15th C artist's idea what such a person looked like and is taken from a woodcut in Schedel's Nuremberg Chronicle (1493).

Over the years, a number of attempts have been made to explain what people thought they saw in ancient times when they described this headless race. Some have said that their heads were hidden between their shoulders by hoisting those up to an extravagant height. I think we have a simpler and more compelling explanation in the form of the armor they used. From the shape shown in the accompanying picture, it can be seen that the eyes of individuals wearing such armor would have appeared at the level of their shoulders (i.e. the upper level of the armor over their shoulders which was suspended above their actual shoulders to protect the neck and face).

This explanation for the race of Blemmyes does not appear anywhere in the historical literature that I have searched, and appears to be a new observation.

Ian.

[CharlesS]

These mounted warriors from Kanem Bornu have always fascinated me. The Kingdom of Kanem Bornu is one of the few times in history two separate kingdoms (Kanem and Bornu) put aside their differences to unite for a cause, in this case desert raiders harassing both kingdoms. These mounted warriors essentially saved the two kingdoms from extinction.

These are some photos and drawings of such mounted warriors. The color photo shows how they are celebrated today.

[estcrh]

Some very interesting material being shared and discussed here, and has prompted me to look back into this topic as it has been some time since last involved with it. The notes are from material which prompted my comments earlier, and after reviewing much of it supports most of the observations here in the thread so just wanted to add.

From H.Russell Robinson , "Oriental Armour" (1967):
Re: Sudanese armour during the Mahdiya,

P. 84: "...the better armed emirs wore rounded helmets, with an aventail of riveted mail and a heavy fixed nasal. "
"...over the body they wore a long quilted jibbah either with or without a mail shirt over it".
"...the mail shirts were all made on the same pattern; short sleeves, round neck opening, and long skirt split to the level of the fork at front and back,
all examples of these shirts show very considerable wear and much patching with crude links of wire or split rings of modern European manufacture.
I would suggest these are generally of old Arab make. All of the rings are riveted except in the case of later repairs, and many are so worn with use that they could be broken with the fingers without effort".

P.85:
Re: various materials brought back from the Mahdist campaigns by British forces.
Among the items was one of the helmets for the Khedives bodyguards which was made in Birmingham. This equipment apparently was completed with a mail shirt made of split rings, which when struck by 'Sudanese' bullets the brittle rings shattered and caused appalling wounds. It appears when the Sudanese captured these items they would only keep and use the helmets- preferring their old mail shirts to these 'new' ones so fraught with risk.

Jim, do to the limitations of this forum I will break up my reply.

On the use of mail armor, Robinsons book is good but he obviously did not know much about riveted mail. Almost all known examples of mail from the Middle East and Indian are made from alternating row of solid links and riveted links, with a few exceptions European riveted mail was the only mail with all riveted links.

The Sudanese did not manufacture riveted mail from what I have read, or they made it in very small amounts, what they made was butted mail. While riveted mail was stronger, the butted Sudanese mail absolutely was used during the fighting in that period and was quite capable of stopping a sword. I am surprised Robinson does not mention this as there are known examples that were captured during the fighting in Sudan during the late 1800s. Of course having the internet and computers makes researching so much easier and accurate than in Robinsons day.

The khedive mail was made from split link key chains, these were first made in England by machines around 1824 so they could not be older than that. Because these were actually key chains supposedly they had a high temper so they would not lose their shape, this explains reports of the links shattering when hit by a bullet. They were used at least until 1883 as there are accounts from the doomed William Hicks expedition of 100 cuirasssiers (horseman in chain mail). Up until the time that the Sudanese captured large amounts of high powered firearms the Egyptians did not have to really worry about being shot by the Sudanese, things changed after that.

Khedive Ismail's Army, John P. Dunn, 2005.
zirkhagi(iron men):Armed with sabres and pistols, these men wore chain-mail armour and metal helmets with nose-guards. While neither was proof against firearms, both offered considerable protection from cut and thrust weapons, like those used by the vast majority of Egypts African enemies. They were an elite formation, and often used both to bolster morale amoung regulars, and impress locals such as when a section was sent for duty in Harar during th early 1880s

From George stone referring to the use of armor by the Sudanese.
In the Sudan armor was used until the battle of Omdurman (1889) proved it to be useless when opposed to modern firearms.


I am posting some images, one is of Sudanese butted mail hauberk from the British Museum and its description. Also a cloth shirt with butted mail sleeves used by the Sudanese and an example of a Khedive hauberk made with split link key chain mail.

This is a horseman's long-sleeved chainmail tunic. It has a long skirt with a slit front and back to allow the wearer to sit on a horse. The scoop neck joins to a vertical slit on the front so it can be pulled over the head. The chainmail consists of butt-joined rings and there is no sign of any organic lining. The mail is in good condition with no dents visible. Chainmail and other armour was maintained so it could be in continuous use for long periods, particularly during the seventeenth to nineteenth centuries.

This chainmail tunic was first worn in around the time the Turkish rulers of Egypt conquered Sudan. It was later reused by the Mahdists, followers of Muhammad Ahmad, who overthrew the Turco-Egyptian administration in 1885 and remained in power until 1898.

[blue lander]

Did "African Knights" wear chain mail gloves? I saw a pair of what looked like chain mail mittens go up for auction awhile ago. The seller said they were from Africa but didn't offer much more information. They looked pretty old. I know I saved a few picture of them, I'll try to dig them up.

[estcrh]

Did "African Knights" wear chain mail gloves? I saw a pair of what looked like chain mail mittens go up for auction awhile ago. The seller said they were from Africa but didn't offer much more information. They looked pretty old. I know I saved a few picture of them, I'll try to dig them up.
The Khedival forces wore mail gloves or gauntlets, I have seen a picture of British soldiers in India wearing them as well. These were purchased from the same source as the split link, key chain hauberks in England. England supplied mail for countries that continued to have a need for mail in this latter time period. The gloves were supposed to have had more mail on one hand than the other. I think that was due to one hand being the sword hand and the other for a horses reins.

I have a sketch of a Khedive soldier wearing these gloves and a quote which mentions their use by Khedival forces as well, another quote mentions their use in India.

[Jim McDougall]

Estcrh, thank you so much for this wonderfully detailed and well explained response to my entries regarding excerpts from some of the well known published material concerning the Sudanese mail armour.

You clearly have remarkable knowledge and experience in these topics on the armour, and it is great to have this kind of insight into this rather esoteric topic. As can be seen by some of the material I entered, much of the generally held conceptions concerning these North African armours are quite misperceived and insufficiently represented.

I very much like that while you have noted these deficiencies with the Robinson material you avoided diminishing the author by your respectful reference to the advantages todays researchers have. Also, in rebuttal to my entries you have avoided making things 'personal' and have focused on soundly supporting your perspective and corrected the material noted.

What is of key importance here is that with the corpus of material and discussion here on this topic (again I thank Linus for opening this thread) that you guys have assembled, you have created a very informative archived block of material . This is an excellent status quo for those who will be studying these armours in the future here, and I know I have certainly learned a great deal on them.

Thank you both again, very nicely done!

All very best regards,
Jim

[estcrh]

These mounted warriors from Kanem Bornu have always fascinated me. The Kingdom of Kanem Bornu is one of the few times in history two separate kingdoms (Kanem and Bornu) put aside their differences to unite for a cause, in this case desert raiders harassing both kingdoms. These mounted warriors essentially saved the two kingdoms from extinction.

These are some photos and drawings of such mounted warriors. The color photo shows how they are celebrated today.
Your photo and this one of Sudanese cloth armor for horse and man are quite similar, as mentioned in the caption of your photo. I have to wonder of one of the museums which own these items has made a mistake in identification.

Quilted Sudanese armour (Jibbah), made from several pieces of brightly coloured cloth sewn together. They are stuffed with kapok, the wool-like strands that surround the seeds of the silk cotton tree, creating a heavy garment. In full battle the warhorse would also have worn mail or pieces of leather across the flanks, and headpiece of metal and cloth. These colourful horses were often used by the bodyguards for leaders. Probably used during the Battle of Omdurman, 1898. British Museum.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is an excellent thread adding weight and depth to Forum Library~ I add the following unusual armour for reference;

Scale coat
Indian, Rajasthan, early 19th century

This coat has been covered with the scales of the pangolin or scaly anteater (Manis crassicaudata). The scales have been decorated in gold, and the larger have been used where more protection is required. This is the only known example of this type of armour. It originally had a helmet, also made of pangolin scales, with three plumes.

The scale coat was presented to the King George III in 1820 by Francis Rawdon, 1st Marquis of Hastinges (1754-1826), who was the East India Company's Governor General in Bengal, 1812-22.

As is noted this is from a source in India thus I wondered if African armour had similar items ...sure enough my last two pictures are Egyptian crocodile armour from the Nile. (the other being a Pitt Rivers ~ small jacket piece)

From one http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/c/crocodile-skin_suit_of_armour.aspx exhibit I Quote''

Crocodile-skin suit of armour
Roman, 3rd century AD
From near Manfalut, Egypt

'In ancient Egypt the crocodile was seen as sacred and divine, and worshipped as a god, so this suit might have been worn by priests of the crocodile sect who by wearing such a garment would take on the spirit of the deity. In many parts of Africa the crocodile is seen as a fearsome and invincible creature and so I think that by wearing crocodile armour and a headpiece like this, a warrior might be transformed in some magical way and take on the attributes of the animal.' Fowokan George Kelly, of Jamaican origin

When the province of Egypt became part of the Roman Empire, it put Romans into direct contact with Egyptian culture and religion. In Egypt Roman garrisons were closely integrated into civic and religious life and participated in local cults. Around Manfalout, on the banks of the Nile in central Egypt, Roman soldiers were particularly attracted to the crocodile cult centred on the sacred grottoes of the region.

This imposing armour is made from the skin of a crocodile. It comprises a helmet and cuirass (body armour) and would have been used in military-style ceremonies of the regional crocodile cult. The skin has been radio-carbon dated to the third century AD. It was presented to the British Museum in 1846 by a Mrs Andrews, who was among a group of European travellers to Manfalut who found grottoes containing the mummified remains of humans and animals, including many crocodiles.

Although the cold, dry environment of the grotto preserved the suit well, the cuirass in particular was flattened and brittle. It has been painstakingly remoulded by the British Museum's Department of Conservation".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

I just ran into this fantastic photo, it shows a mounted Sudanese warrior wearing a heavy mail hauberk and carrying a rather nice kaskara. This alone is rare but one website claims this is actually a photo of the Madhi, if true this would be the only photo of him that I am aware of. I put a portrait of the Madhi next to this photo to compare, any opinions?

نشرت دار الوثائق البريطانية، لأول مرة الصورة الحقيقية للإمام محمد أحمد المهدي قائد الثورة المهدية في السودان وهو يرتدي الزي العسكري للثوار الأنصار، جدير بالذكر أن الثورة المهدية انطلقت في السودان بزعامة محمد احمد المهدي الذي ولد في عام 1843م في جزيرة لبب بمنطقة دنقلا شمالي السودان، وقامت الثورة المهدية كرد فعل غاضب على الحكم البريطاني المصري المعروف بفترة حكم الإنجليز الأولي في السودان.

Published Dar British documents, for the first time the true picture of Imam Muhammad Ahmad commander of the Mahdist War in Sudan, wearing a military uniform rebel supporters, worth mentioning that the Mahdist War started in Sudan, led by Muhammad Ahmad, who was born in 1843 in the door to the island region of Dongola in northern Sudan, The Mahdist War angry reaction on the Egyptian British rule known as the initial period of the British rule in Sudan.

[Jim McDougall]

I just ran into this fantastic photo, it shows a mounted Sudanese warrior wearing a heavy mail hauberk and carrying a rather nice kaskara. This alone is rare but one website claims this is actually a photo of the Madhi, if true this would be the only photo of him that I am aware of. I put a portrait of the Madhi next to this photo to compare, any opinions?


I have seen the photo at the right of the mounted warrior with a great example of kaskara in a number of publications, but I have never seen it suggested to be the Mahdi. It seems most of the time it was simply a general image of unspecified warrior. It is a fascinating suggestion to possibly be the Mahdi himself, and there is a free association similarity that is compelling but speculative.
Regardless, the image is an excellent one showing the sword and armour.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here is an interesting Abysinian picture portrayal......For the full script see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adal_Sultanate :shrug: Note the footsoldiers bottom right wearing the simple cloth around their heads...still worn today in Arabia...

It is interesting to note that Quote" In the 16th century, Adal organised an effective army led by Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi that invaded the Abyssinian empire. This campaign is historically known as the Conquest of Abyssinia or Futuh al Habash.

During the war, Ahmed pioneered the use of cannons supplied by the Ottoman Empire, which were deployed against Solomonic forces and their Portuguese allies led by Cristóvão da Gama.

Some scholars argue that this conflict proved, through their use on both sides, the value of firearms such as the matchlock musket, cannons and the arquebus over traditional weapons.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

and in and around The Battle of Omdurman~plus some addition to the shield style... :shrug:

[estcrh]

Here is an interesting Abysinian picture portrayal......

The Sultan of Adal (right) and his troops battling King Yagbea-Sion and his men. From Le Livre des Merveilles, 15th century.

The Adal Sultanate or Kingdom of Adal was a medieval Muslim Somali state located in the Horn of Africa. It flourished from around 1415 to 1577. At its height it controlled large parts of modern-day Somalia, Ethiopia, Djibouti and Eritrea.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

This is an astonishing picture displaying the Woven Armour of African cavalry :shrug: Please see http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bullet-Proof-Armour-Skirmish-Abyssinia-Goldsmith/dp/B004LS2ZGE where the actual newspaper report can be magnified on Ancient quilted armour... :shrug:

[nKante]

If you google Benin warrior you will get hundreds of medieval bronzes depicting warriors in all sorts of body armor.

[nKante]

these are some of the re-creations I did.

[estcrh]

I would note these English helmets are not like those pictured here in the thread with the arrow nasal and star in disc etc. Those as well as the cuirass are as noted apparently French. The French had been notably present in Khedival Egypt so this is not surprising.

It does seem these type helmets of the 'French' cuirassier type actually predate the c. 1844 date often assigned to them, and are noted in drawings slightly earlier. They are seen in illustrations of Khedival bodyguard cuirassiers in the Crimea in 1854.

Apparently by the 1880s there had been some deviation in degree or perhaps incidental license by an artist, as in the French " Le Drapeau" (July,1882) two members of the Khedives bodyguards are seen wearing mail rather than the cuirass.
Another case in Illustrated London News (1882) there are two Circassian irregulars listed as Khedival bodyguards.


Jim, there are still some unanswered mysteries concerning the use of armor in Khedival Egypt.

From what I can glean from mutiple conflicting sources, mail hauberks and steel French helmets with a cresent on top and a sliding nasel were used from sometime after 1824 to the late 1830s or 1840. It is unclear if the hauberks were produced using the split link key chain mail from England as were the later made mail hauberks but were else would they have purchased brand new matching mail armor at that time. Since the split link key chain was first made by machine in 1924 we can assume that the first Khedival mail hauberks were made sometime after 1824.

Sometime around the late 1830s to 1840 steel French cuirass were introduced, they were paired with a helmet that was either the same or very similar to the earlier steel French helmets with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel.

The mail hauberk was not retired, there is at least one instance reported of Khedival troops (Nubians) being seen parading in mail hauberks around 1854.

I have no firm information on when the steel French cuirass and steel French helmet with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel was last used. I have not seen any reports that they were used during the Sudanese war, but they are said to have been used during the Crimean war (1855 to 1856).

Sometime around 1880, several hundred (600 to 800) split link key chain mail hauberks and steel bowl shaped helmets with split link key chain mail neck guards and sliding nasel and mail gauntlets were ordered from England, some sources say that at least part of the order came from Wilkinson Sword. These armors were said to have been used by some Khedival troops during the doomed Hicks expedition, one report says that one hundred mounted troops wearing these mail hauberks were with the Hicks expedition.

There are apparently a few other types of armor used in Khedival Egypt, one print shows a very French looking helmet and steel cuirass being worn by two Egyptian mounted troops, these is one photo showing a few similar armors hanging on the wall of an Egyptian museum.

One other strange looking steel bowl helmet with no sliding nasel has turned up as well, there are a couple of photos of it.

I have posted a few photos, due to the forums lack of inline image attachments they will probably not be in order, you will have to figure them out.

I have put three figures together showing the stages of Khedival armor, on the left is the older mail hauberk with the French helmet, in the middle is the French helmet with the French cuirass, on the right is the later made English helmet and mail hauberk. Also shown is a photo of the unusual brass helmet and cuirass and a detail from the print showing similar armor. Two photos of the unusual bowl shaped helmet.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Jim, there are still some unanswered mysteries concerning the use of armor in Khedival Egypt.

From what I can glean from mutiple conflicting sources, mail hauberks and steel French helmets with a cresent on top and a sliding nasel were used from sometime after 1824 to the late 1830s or 1840. It is unclear if the hauberks were produced using the split link key chain mail from England as were the later made mail hauberks but were else would they have purchased brand new matching mail armor at that time. Since the split link key chain was first made by machine in 1924 we can assume that the first Khedival mail hauberks were made sometime after 1824.

Sometime around the late 1830s to 1840 steel French cuirass were introduced, they were paired with a helmet that was either the same or very similar to the earlier steel French helmets with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel.

The mail hauberk was not retired, there is at least one instance reported of Khedival troops (Nubians) being seen parading in mail hauberks around 1854.

I have no firm information on when the steel French cuirass and steel French helmet with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel was last used. I have not seen any reports that they were used during the Sudanese war, but they are said to have been used during the Crimean war (1855 to 1856).

Sometime around 1880, several hundred (600 to 800) split link key chain mail hauberks and steel bowl shaped helmets with split link key chain mail neck guards and sliding nasel and mail gauntlets were ordered from England, some sources say that at least part of the order came from Wilkinson Sword. These armors were said to have been used by some Khedival troops during the doomed Hicks expedition, one report says that one hundred mounted troops wearing these mail hauberks were with the Hicks expedition.

There are apparently a few other types of armor used in Khedival Egypt, one print shows a very French looking helmet and steel cuirass being worn by two Egyptian mounted troops, these is one photo showing a few similar armors hanging on the wall of an Egyptian museum.

One other strange looking steel bowl helmet with no sliding nasel has turned up as well, there are a couple of photos of it.

I have posted a few photos, due to the forums lack of inline image attachments they will probably not be in order, you will have to figure them out.

I have put three figures together showing the stages of Khedival armor, on the left is the older mail hauberk with the French helmet, in the middle is the French helmet with the French cuirass, on the right is the later made English helmet and mail hauberk. Also shown is a photo of the unusual brass helmet and cuirass and a detail from the print showing similar armor. Two photos of the unusual bowl shaped helmet.


Taking the question of English produced armour...It appears so...

From Wikipedia I Quote" During the late 19th and early 20th century mail was used as a material for bulletproof vests, most notably by the Wilkinson Sword Company. Results were unsatisfactory; Wilkinson mail worn by the Khedive of Egypt's regiment of "Iron Men" was manufactured from split rings which proved to be too brittle, and the rings would fragment when struck by bullets and aggravate the damage. The riveted mail armour worn by the opposing Sudanese Madhists did not have the same problem but also proved to be relatively useless against the firearms of British forces at the battle of Omdurman. During World War I Wilkinson Sword transitioned from mail to a lamellar design which was the precursor to the flak jacket.Unquote.

In effect this is what the Hicks Iron Men were equipped with and may be viewed at http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egypt-army-hicks-expedition-1883/ from which I have extracted the following ~Quote.
Hicks Expedition (1883): Khedive's Zirkhagi - the "Iron Men" or Cuirassiers
Pre-WW1 Wilkinson's chainmail vest.
1856-1882 Mounted Palace Guard.

Below - This 1882 illustration, shows a helmet used by the Khedive's Zirkhagi: Iron Men (Cuirassiers) much like the UK made ones :
Deeply-domed helmets (similar to one on display in the National Army Museum, UK pictured below) With separately-applied brow plate;
Adjustable nasal.
Only the small spike ball-finial is missing.

​Khedive's Zirkhagi, the "Iron Men" or Cuirassiers (they were now part of the Khedival Guard). Armed with sabres and pistols, these wore chain-mail armour and metal helmets with nose-guards” .

An illustration from The Graphic (c.1883) ‘Egyptian Cuirassier’. This particular illustration was extracted from a larger grouping of 1883 Hick's Expedition soldiers, seen in The Graphic (24 November, 1883): 516.
This 1883 illustration, shows three key parts to the "Iron Men" equipment:
Helmet much like the UK made ones.

Wilkinson Sword Company coat of mail .
In particular, his right rein-hand is protected by a mail gauntlet - 1860 Wilkinson Sword Co. "Gauntlets").
The right rein-hand gauntlet is completely covered in mail.
Whereas, the left (sword) hand gauntlet is only partially covered in mail, leaving the leather hand portion, which would be protected by the basket-hilt of his sword - which is a standard French Army heavy cavalry sword, dating from the Napoleonic period, as these were sold in large quantities to the Egyptian and Turkish Armies.
----------------------------------
According to 'Khedive Ismail's Army', by John P. Dunn (2013) - “One squadron maintained a different organisation.

(a) 1860 Wilkinson Sword Co. "Coats of Steel Chainmail".
These were the 'Split link mail hauberk', made in England for export.
These mail shirts used by the forces of the Khedive of Egypt in the 1800s until they were replaced with a French made steel cuirass around 1840.
In the 1880s, the Khedive Tewfik ordered from a Birmingham firm 600 hauberks made of split rings for the Egyptian army under Colonel Hicks, and are said to have 'proved worse than useless'.

(b) 1860 Wilkinson Sword Co. "Gauntlets".
As has been observed in the illustration from The Graphic (c.1883) ‘Egyptian Cuirassier’ (above), the Wilkinson Sword Company's gauntlets were designed as a distinctly left, and right handed pairs:
The right rein-hand gauntlet is completely covered in mail.
Whereas, the left (sword) hand gauntlet is only partially covered in mail, leaving the leather hand portion, which would be protected by the basket-hilt of his sword - which is a standard French Army heavy cavalry sword, dating from the Napoleonic period, as these were sold in large quantities to the Egyptian and Turkish Armies.

(c) "Iron Men" helmet (Wilkinson's Sword-Proof Helmet).
Birmingham, UK Helmets Supplied to the Khedive of Egypt’s Regiment of Iron Men. In 'Oriental Armour', by H. Russell Robinson (1967), it is stated:
“now in the Tower Collection (which would now be the ‘Royal Armouries’) – the helmet shown with which is one of many made in Birmingham for the Khedive of Egypt’s regiment of Iron Men."

Information from Auctions Imperial (2012), indicates that deeply-domed helmets (similar to one on display in the National Army Museum, UK pictured below), from the Sudan surmounted by a spike ball- finial, with separately-applied brow plate and adjustable nasal guard. And including a camail woven of heavy split rings. The description of this helmet included the note:

"Helmets of this type were made in Birmingham, originally for the bodyguard of the Khedive of Egypt, known as the "Iron Men" (Auctions Imperial, 2012).

-------------------------------------------
This helmet (now in the National Army Museum), was once part of the Tower Collection; and the original commentary was: “now in the Tower Collection – the helmet shown with which is one of many made in Birmingham for the Khedive of Egypt’s regiment of ‘Iron Men’. The equipment was completed with a mail shirt made of split rings-and when the mail was struck by Sudanese bullets the brittle rings shattered and caused appalling wounds. The Sudanese, it would appear, only used the helmets they captured from the Egyptians, preferring the old shirts they had to the new ones fraught with so much risk.”

It also notes that in their original form, these Sudanese helmets with their long chainmail neck curtains were “sewn to a thickly quilted lining which extends to the shoulders, across the lower face, and then down to form a cuirass which laces up under the left arm.”

Finally, it appears that Wilkinson Sword Co. catalogues, from the 1860's were selling, "coats of steel chainmail, gauntlets and sword-proof helmets." Unquote.

[LinusLinothorax]

This is an astonishing picture displaying the Woven Armour of African cavalry :shrug: Please see http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bullet-Proof-Armour-Skirmish-Abyssinia-Goldsmith/dp/B004LS2ZGE where the actual newspaper report can be magnified on Ancient quilted armour... :shrug:
Wow, great picture! Didnt knew that even the Beja people (Which are assumed to be the sucessors of the Blemmyes by the way) wore quilted armour for men and horse. Thanks for that rare photo. Personaly, i would be interested to know if quilted horsearmour was already in use in Christian Sudanese times, or maybe even in ancient times. Concerning that i can offer some grafittos, but the dating is not entirely certain (The author says "Medieval era", but he dont explains why he assumes that. Armoured horses are not known in Christian Nuiban iconographies).

These mounted warriors from Kanem Bornu have always fascinated me. The Kingdom of Kanem Bornu is one of the few times in history two separate kingdoms (Kanem and Bornu) put aside their differences to unite for a cause, in this case desert raiders harassing both kingdoms. These mounted warriors essentially saved the two kingdoms from extinction.
If i remember right the two kingdoms dont melted voluntary, but Bornu was conquered by Kanem in the early medieval ages, while later the political center shifted from Kanem to Bornu.

These are some photos and drawings of such mounted warriors. The color photo shows how they are celebrated today.
Keep in mind though that your second picture shows a knight of the kingdom of Baguirmi, not Kanem-Bornu. Baguirmi was a smaller kingdom south of Kanem-Bornu, which often was subdued to either Kanem-Bornu or Wadai, the other central Sudanese kingdom of major importance. See my other two paintings of Baguirmi knights.

Your second picture also dont shows Kanuri/Kanembu warriors, but rather Hausa ones, depicted in ceremonial armour on one of the traditional Hausa fastivals (You can scan Google for "Durbar/Hausa-festival" for many great photos).

[colin henshaw]

Interesting old image showing an interior view of the Governor's Palace in Khartoum. Some examples of armour and a helmet can be seen near the top.

[estcrh]

Taking the question of English produced armour...It appears so...

From Wikipedia I Quote".................................................. .................................................

Finally, it appears that Wilkinson Sword Co. catalogues, from the 1860's were selling, "coats of steel chainmail, gauntlets and sword-proof helmets." Unquote.

Ibrahiim, there is a difference between what people write and being able to prove it. The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not. As for the Wilkinson catelog from the 1860s, do you have a link to it? The only catelog from Wilkinson that I am aware of that describes what we are looking for is a 1851 exhibition catelog were they do describe mail hauberks and gauntlets, but they only mention their use in India, nothing about Egypt, no mention of split links either. It also mentions bridles, you can not control your horse if the bridle is cut. Ottoman-uniforms does not suppy any real proof in the way of verifiable sources that I can fins showing Wilkinson was involved in making either the hauberk or the helmets.

The book that mentions Wilkinson swords involvement in mail hauberk production has been misquoted, in this book "Khartoum campaign, 1898: or the re-conquest of the Soudan By Bennet Burleigh" 1899, the writer says that it is the helmets that were made by Wilkinson, not the mail hauberks. Please carefully read the quote from the book that I have provided below.
"Coats of chain-mail old and new, and steel helmets. Most of the latter are quite modern, being part of the 600 supplied by a London firm of sword makers-Wklkinson & Co. Pall Mall." Notice it reads latter, which would refer to the helmets I believe since the hauberks are mentioned before the the helmets.

All of the mentions in later books and web sites etc seem to be using the quote from this book to back up their claims that Wilkinson had anything to do with the mail hauberls purchased in England for the Khedives forces. If you or anyone else has any additional proof I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Below I have provided the quote directly from the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the book I mention and a photo of what I believe to be one of the later made 1880s split link key chain mail hauberks next to a drawing of Khedive soldiers, 1880s, wearing the same hauberks.

It seems funny that in the many years between the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the purchase by Egypt of 600 to 800 mail hauberks in the 1880s (30 years) there are no images from Wilkinson of these hauberks and no additional references to them (that I can find). Something else that I find amazing is that so far no photos of any of the Khedives forces wearing armor has surfaced, you would think with all of the drawings and descriptions someone would have taken a picture, I am still waiting for one to turn up.

[estcrh]

For anyone interested in Khedival Egypt and Sudanese mahdi period armor I have put together a Pinterest site with all of the armor images I have found so far, although I probably have a few still hidden on my hard drive that I will add if they turn up and I will add any I find at a later date. I also have a general Khedive of Egypt Pinterest site with some great photos etc.

Armor of Khedival Egypt and the Sudanese Mahdist state.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/armor-of-khedival-egypt-and-the-sudanese-mahdist-s/

The Khedive of Egypt.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/the-khedives-of-egypt/

[LinusLinothorax]

For anyone interested in Khedival Egypt and Sudanese mahdi period armor I have put together a Pinterest site with all of the armor images I have found so far, although I probably have a few still hidden on my hard drive that I will add if they turn up and I will add any I find at a later date. I also have a general Khedive of Egypt Pinterest site with some great photos etc.

Armor of Khedival Egypt and the Sudanese Mahdist state.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/armor-of-khedival-egypt-and-the-sudanese-mahdist-s/

The Khedive of Egypt.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/the-khedives-of-egypt/
Amazing! Maybe you or someone else here could do something similiar for the other armours which will come together in this thread?

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent responses and great detail and information everyone!
Linus has a great suggestion regarding the spectrum of body armours which have come into the discussion here, and while analogous to this discussion they all certainly have their own histories.

What is excellent here is the participation of so many in discovering more on the history of these armours and revising or reinforcing published data and generally held perceptions as required. It is our best hope that members and readers here continue research and share findings,
here we learn together!

Excellent notes pertaining to the helmet production Estcrh, and interesting to see that this material is misquoted, unfortunately not at all uncommon in early writings. However I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked. This is as far as I have known, pretty standard procedure for all published material, and just as with those resources, pertinent data must be rechecked. These are all benchmarks for further research.

Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else. It seems quite possible that some instances of material on these topics might have come from personal contact with him as he is quite active online and most helpful to peoples queries.

It is remarkable that a single 'chestnut' like the 1899 reference noted by Estrcrh can be the seed for numerous misquotes and notions in so much subsequent material. That is why what we do here is so important, and it is virtually incumbent on us to resolve these matters and preserve the corrected data.

Ian, what a fascinating aside on the 'Blemmyes'! and thank you for the interesting true story on this folklore. It is indeed intriguing to see how visual perceptions of armour in use, often somewhat outlandish to be sure, could lead to these bizarre notions and tall tales.

nKante, what a superb job of recreating this amazing armour and dress! This is excellent to see the key items used by these warriors in full dimension and preserving this wonderful heritage. Bravo!!!

[estcrh]

Amazing! Maybe you or someone else here could do something similiar for the other armours which will come together in this thread?

I have done just that for many types of armor, weapons, photos etc.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

You just need a data base of photos and correct information that can be merged together so that people can learn from what you have created. I often hear people talk about 'research", but if it is not readly and easily available to anyone then what good is the best reasearch, it may as well not exist. At one point I used Photobucket, Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia to store photos and information but Pinterest allows anyone to instantly create a searchable database for whatever they have an interest in, as you can see.

[estcrh]

I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked.

Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else.

Jim, I have actually created several articles on Wikipedia about Japanese armor, weapons and horse related equipment and edited many more, adding good images and verifiable references. I have also added, categorized and edited thousands of images on Wikimedia Commons. They are both usefull sites when the information is correct. Unfortunately in this case when I searched for the information supposedly contained in the Wikipedia references I could find nothing, that is what I meant by "useless". The references could be good but unless someone can trace the references back and see for themselves then they are not useful for research.

It is quite possible that some of the armor used by the Khedives forces did in fact come from Wilkinson, but until the smoking gun is found it is best to let people know that Wilkinson "may" have made some of the armor rather than say they absolutely did make some of the armor. Your suggestion about contacting Wilkinson directly is an excellent approach.

[LinusLinothorax]

I have done just that for many types of armor, weapons, photos etc.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

You just need a data base of photos and correct information that can be merged together so that people can learn from what you have created. I often hear people talk about 'research", but if it is not readly and easily available to anyone then what good is the best reasearch, it may as well not exist. At one point I used Photobucket, Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia to store photos and information but Pinterest allows anyone to instantly create a searchable database for whatever they have an interest in, as you can see.
These are some nice collections you made there, but if i see it right a collection called "African armours" is still missing. I guess if we have some more material posted in this thread you can create that very collection ;)

If you need any more informations about the things i posted just tell me and i will write you a pm will all the informations i have.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely, and as you can see as a reliable participant on Wikipedia, it is all very much relative, and many entries such as those you placed are entirely usable. As I noted, it is incumbent on the user to take caution in the use of the material and must serve as a benchmark, not a final citation.

With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect?
It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors.

Actually with the armor, it seems references I had seen noted the mail had come from Birmingham, of course the key industrial area known for arms and all manner of equipment. Wilkinson was of course not in Birmingham so perhaps it might have been a Wilkinson subcontractor. Of these there were a good number, especially for colonially intended products. It seems that Mole was one for swords for example in those headed for India.

After Omdurman and during the Condominium, there was such a demand for souveniers that when supplies of actual items from the Sudanese faltered, there were facsimile items such as spearheads etc made in Birmingham to supply the souks.

The equipage of the Mahdist forces was certainly a hodgepodge and gathered from all kinds of sources, so to see varying helmets, swords, etc. must have been amazing. The sound mail hauberks from Mamluk/Ottoman sources certainly would have been represented in considerable numbers.

The examples of British manufacture which were apparently in degree with the Khedival forces as I found, were left and only the helmets taken, along of course with rifles etc. In the early part of the Mahdiyya most tribesmen did not even have swords. In references I have seen, many of the rank and file had wooden swords, and retrieved the swords of the fallen during the combats.

It would be extremely difficult to assert the presence of or absence of certain types of arms and armor in these campaigns due to the remarkably ersatz nature of equipping these forces. It is still interesting to seek any examples which may have been used in degree however.

[estcrh]

With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect?
It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors.


Jim, Pinterest is currently the best way to store and share photos and information with other people, basically everyone can have/be their own mini Wikipedia, each Pinterest post is allowed a 500 character description, if this is not enough one can write as much as they want on a notepad on their computer, they can then turn what they have written into a .jpg image by doing a screen print etc and saving it on their computer using an editor such as Irfanview, and then by using an editor they can easily attach/combine what they wrote to the image they want to post. I find that 500 characters is usually enough to adequitely describe most photos. You can also insert links to websites, articles, pdf etc.

If you have not already done so, please take a look at my Pinterest page and take a few minutes to open some of the categories I have created and look at the photos I have posted, read some descriptions and see for yourself, let me know what you think.

A few short years ago you could find almost no online information or photos of Khedival armor, now try a simple google search such as "khedive armor", see what you find under "web", then look under "images", no doubt you will see the real power of Pinterest. Due to Googles powerful search engine the internet is full of information and images of "khedive armor" for anyone to easily find, taken directly from Pinterest, forums, auctions, books and dealers websites. Some of what you will find was just posted a day or two ago, to me it is really amazing.

My Pinterest page.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

[estcrh]

These are some nice collections you made there, but if i see it right a collection called "African armours" is still missing. I guess if we have some more material posted in this thread you can create that very collection ;)

If you need any more informations about the things i posted just tell me and i will write you a pm will all the informations i have.

Ok, I have created a Pinterest category for African armor, I will be adding images from my hard drive, forums and the internet, you can watch and hopefully add any additional information which may be missing or correct any image descriptions which you may find to be wrong. If this goes as planned it will eventually be the worlds largest African armor gallery/data base in the world. Images posted here will be added to my Pinterest category if they are relevant.

African armor.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/african-armor/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, there is a difference between what people write and being able to prove it. The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not. As for the Wilkinson catelog from the 1860s, do you have a link to it? The only catelog from Wilkinson that I am aware of that describes what we are looking for is a 1851 exhibition catelog were they do describe mail hauberks and gauntlets, but they only mention their use in India, nothing about Egypt, no mention of split links either. It also mentions bridles, you can not control your horse if the bridle is cut. Ottoman-uniforms does not suppy any real proof in the way of verifiable sources that I can fins showing Wilkinson was involved in making either the hauberk or the helmets.

The book that mentions Wilkinson swords involvement in mail hauberk production has been misquoted, in this book "Khartoum campaign, 1898: or the re-conquest of the Soudan By Bennet Burleigh" 1899, the writer says that it is the helmets that were made by Wilkinson, not the mail hauberks. Please carefully read the quote from the book that I have provided below.
"Coats of chain-mail old and new, and steel helmets. Most of the latter are quite modern, being part of the 600 supplied by a London firm of sword makers-Wklkinson & Co. Pall Mall." Notice it reads latter, which would refer to the helmets I believe since the hauberks are mentioned before the the helmets.

All of the mentions in later books and web sites etc seem to be using the quote from this book to back up their claims that Wilkinson had anything to do with the mail hauberls purchased in England for the Khedives forces. If you or anyone else has any additional proof I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Below I have provided the quote directly from the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the book I mention and a photo of what I believe to be one of the later made 1880s split link key chain mail hauberks next to a drawing of Khedive soldiers, 1880s, wearing the same hauberks.

It seems funny that in the many years between the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the purchase by Egypt of 600 to 800 mail hauberks in the 1880s (30 years) there are no images from Wilkinson of these hauberks and no additional references to them (that I can find). Something else that I find amazing is that so far no photos of any of the Khedives forces wearing armor has surfaced, you would think with all of the drawings and descriptions someone would have taken a picture, I am still waiting for one to turn up.

Salaams estcrh, You wrote.......Quote."The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not". Unquote. ....

I wrote "Taking the question of English produced armour..."It appears so..." and under that; the content carefully placed in quotation marks..

It may well be that a quotation is proven to be partially incorrect but it is not the fault of the author who exposes/refers to the information ...Note my carefully worded starter "It appears so" ...which is rather like saying ..."It is said that"......

Wikepedia information is however, not useless. It operates like a huge search engine and encyclopedia and as you know corrections are invited. Broadly speaking we take the information from such libraries and sift it ...model it...and present it so that it then passes before our very eyes and into Library...where it still may be scrutinized ...I think we avoid using such terminology as ..."It is completely useless"...etc. etc. whereas I am entirely in support of correcting such mistakes as have already appeared even in well accepted authors works down the ages.

It remains, however, important to follow and expose details as we discover them and it has always been my technique to present what I find in support of threads by looking into every possibility to hand... which includes Forum Library, books and the web...thus occasionally Wikepedia (which I find excellent) and even Pinterest.

I even noted privately when it began, that Pinterest makes an excellent addition to Forum content, however, it is not the be all and end all to web based research as it is generally all about pictures...and there are other areas to obtain details....It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format...

Here is a classic thread full of interest in an area otherwise hardly exposed before... but now with a bright Forum light shining on it !! :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

Salaams estcrh, You wrote.......Quote."The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not". Unquote. ....

I wrote "Taking the question of English produced armour..."It appears so..." and under that; the content carefully placed in quotation marks..

It may well be that a quotation is proven to be partially incorrect but it is not the fault of the author who exposes/refers to the information ...Note my carefully worded starter "It appears so" ...which is rather like saying ..."It is said that"......

Wikepedia information is however, not useless.
I even noted privately when it began, that Pinterest makes an excellent addition to Forum content, however, it is not the be all and end all to web based research as it is generally all about pictures...and there are other areas to obtain details....It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format...


Ibrahiim, I think I did not make myself clear enough, sorry about that, I meant that in THIS particular instance, the information on the origins of Khedival armor was (to me at least) completely useless....because when I tried to find the information in the references that were used in the article they led nowhere (at least for me), one reference did not show up at all when I searched for it and the other was a modern book that when searched did not show the information that the article said it contained. I was in no way saying that you believed the information to be true, you were just pointing it out, and I was just pointing out my thoughts on the usefullness of the references as research material.


As for Pinterest, I invite you to take some time and throughly look at my Pinterest site, it is certainly not "all about pictures" unless you want it to be. Besides pictures you can post books, articles and essays, pdfs, you can write your own research papers and convert them to a .jpg and post them on pinterest, you can post links to websites and articles. It is a complete storage system that allows you to categorize images and information in a way that no other system I am aware of allows you to do. People who shrug off Pinterest as only being about "pictures" have not taken a good look at its possibilities.

It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format.The lack of image uploading upgrades has left this forum in the past, the small images size and lack of inline attachments makes it very hard to post images and add appropriate matching text, this limits what people will post on the forum and I am sure many people just do not bother to post images here at all due to these limitations. So as a storage system for images the forum also has some its on problems.


Here is an example of what you can do with Pinterest besides posting pretty pictures.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/39/ca/d2/39cad2102ea0250f997aa821cfbb667c.png

[estcrh]

AFRICAN KNIGHTS:The Armies of Sokoto, Bornu and Bagirmi in the 19th Century by Conrad Cairns, 2006, covers the period that began with the Sokoto jihad in 1804 and ended with the extinction of the Savannah states by the European powers in the 20th c, provides a brief history of the three states and examines the arms, equipment and methods of warfare used by their armoured 'knights' and infantry, sections on horses, artillery, flags, fortifications, clothing, with photographs and engravings.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, I think I did not make myself clear enough, sorry about that, I meant that in THIS particular instance, the information on the origins of Khedival armor was (to me at least) completely useless....because when I tried to find the information in the references that were used in the article they led nowhere (at least for me), one reference did not show up at all when I searched for it and the other was a modern book that when searched did not show the information that the article said it contained. I was in no way saying that you believed the information to be true, you were just pointing it out, and I was just pointing out my thoughts on the usefullness of the references as research material.


As for Pinterest, I invite you to take some time and throughly look at my Pinterest site, it is certainly not "all about pictures" unless you want it to be. Besides pictures you can post books, articles and essays, pdfs, you can write your own research papers and convert them to a .jpg and post them on pinterest, you can post links to websites and articles. It is a complete storage system that allows you to categorize images and information in a way that no other system I am aware of allows you to do. People who shrug off Pinterest as only being about "pictures" have not taken a good look at its possibilities.

The lack of image uploading upgrades has left this forum in the past, the small images size and lack of inline attachments makes it very hard to post images and add appropriate matching text, this limits what people will post on the forum and I am sure many people just do not bother to post images here at all due to these limitations. So as a storage system for images the forum also has some its on problems.


Here is an example of what you can do with Pinterest besides posting pretty pictures.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/39/ca/d2/39cad2102ea0250f997aa821cfbb667c.png


Salaams estcrh, Regretably you mixed up two references...One from Wikepedia and the other with the actual quote was from my second reference http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ ...Therefor Wikepedia in this instance is vindicated.

It is interesting that there are actually few accounts of the Hicks expedition not least because there were few people left alive to recount the details because it was almost totally annihilated.

I use Pinterest occasionally as it can be seen that the images are excellent. Unfortunately their website insists that users join another media site to access and frankly it puts me off as I consider it an invasion of privacy...but certainly it is worth considering ..though as I say ...I am very happy using a broad range of research concepts and since books on the subject are quite difficult to get here the web fills in as second best....We are after all ...it should be remembered ...also a web based information retrieval cell...

I will certainly look in at your site. Meanwhile good luck with the African Armour details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[estcrh]

Salaams estcrh, Regretably you mixed up two references...One from Wikepedia and the other with the actual quote was from my second reference http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ ...Therefor Wikepedia in this instance is vindicated.



Ibrahiim, actually Wikipedia is NOT vindicated at all. I do not mind being wrong but in this case I know exactly what I am talking about. I have directly saved the Wikipedia text that mentions Wilkinson and mail, and the references indicated, #19. "Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886. #20. Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd. p. 41. #21. Google Books Iron Men

The first reference is a newspaper article, which according to Wikipedias standareds for valid references is not a valid reference. In most cases facts that come from websites, newspapers, self published books are not usable as reliable references.

Anyway try finding the article mentioned ("Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886.), I can not find a mention of it anywere except in reference to the Wikipedia article, if the reference can not be found what use is it? So an other useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The next reference is Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd., again I have looked for this catelog and I can not find it, so another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The third reference is a modern book, Google Books Iron Men, there is a link to a book called Khedive Ismail's Army, John P. Dunn, 2004. This book does not mention Wilkinson sword at all as far as I can tell, it mentions "zirhagi" (iron men) which is another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

As for the references go, ottoman-uniforms.com does a great job and I give a lot of credit to Dr Flaherty, but it is a work in progress, images and text change from time to time, information is added and removed, sometimes links die as well.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...:)

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A close up of the cloth armour; From Pinterest; Sudanese quilted armor. Armor for horse and rider displayed in the British Museum were captured from the army of Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad ibn ‘Abd Allah (Battle of Omdurman,1898), cotton stuffed with kapok, loosely quilted horizontally and firmly quilted vertically. L:134 cm, W:131 cm, suggesting the sleeves are probably 3/4 length. the long length and high central vent is consistent with a cavalryman’s armor.
The small picture showing how best to get out of ones armoured shirt... :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...:)

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Occasionally I have to write to myself !... I was reviewing the few publications on things about African Armour and discovered a book by Christopher Spring curator at the British Museum...see below.

One account from a reader indicates...Quote" AFRICAN ARMS AND ARMOUR not only talk about the weapons, but it also provides many excellent historical accounts of the weapons in use throughout history. It was fascinating to learn that African weapons were not restricted to just spears and hide shields like many may believe today, but they also had as wide a variety of weapons as could be found anywhere in the world, complete with swords, bows, cavalry, and even armor. This is a good book to read for not only weapons enthusiasts, but also history buffs". Unquote.

[estcrh]

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.

Left to right, Albanian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Kurd (Cavalry), Sudanese Regular, Bosnian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Syrian Bashi Bazouk, Egyptian Cuirssier, in Shirt of Mail, with Pot Helmet and LInked Hood Similar to that Worn by the Saracens of Saladia. Greek Bashi Bazouk from the Turkish Provences, Fella or Regular Egyptian Infantryman, Segir of the Dromedary (camel) Scouting Corps, and Segir or Arab from the Country between Shendy and Dongala.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.


Salaams estcrh, I have no problem with this at all... Occasionally different people use different techniques to open these Pandoras box problems... Most people have trouble following the rapid twists and turns of a web that is crashing along at exponential rates of knowledge/detail intake. The picture you show of the Hicks soldiers is remarkable and probably one of those sketches for the London Times...Probably by the time that report was printed ...most of that huge expedition were dead....!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

This continues to be s most fascinating thread, and I very much admire the gentlemanly exchange in discussing differences in opinion and perspective, case in point Wikipedia and the more recent web phenomenon, Pininterest.
Like most everything, these kinds of venues serve well for many, and of course in varying cases and degrees.
As always, they are only as effective as those who proactively contribute to them, and can be most useful if the material presented is accurately and effectively entered.

I must reiterate, to me online resources are usually quite valuable, but as even with published resources the best policy is to recheck and confirm sources and cites. As noted, many of these references in these online venues are dated, improperly quoted and poorly cited. While their 'benchmark' standing remains, it becomes even more essential to continue research and confirmation.

The book "African Knights" sounds fascinating and I have ordered it!
"African Arms and Armour" has been a keystone in my African references for nearly two decades! and has always served me well. In the concurrent thread on throwing knives, after searching through a good number of esoteric reference sources, I found most of what I sought in 'Spring' (which most of us use to term this now venerable source).

Excellent thread!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

More on African Armour...Mahdist undergarments etc used in the Hicks Massacre and at Omdurman ...

[eftihis]

Here are closer photos of the mail. I have seen one similar described as Ottoman.

[estcrh]

Here are closer photos of the mail. I have seen one similar described as Ottoman.Very nice images, it certainly is not Indian mail. I would say either Ottoman or Persian, either way you did good on these, I seem to remember they sold for a rather low price. Do you have a weight and or measurement.

[eftihis]

Dear estcrh, thanks for your input and let me congratulate you for the thousands of images that you have gathered in your boards! I was like lost there for some hours! The weight is 12,5 kg the 2 together, so i guess 6,250kg each (my scale couldnt work with just one on it!)

[estcrh]

Dear estcrh, thanks for your input and let me congratulate you for the thousands of images that you have gathered in your boards! I was like lost there for some hours! The weight is 12,5 kg the 2 together, so i guess 6,250kg each (my scale couldnt work with just one on it!)

Here is a comparison view of your mail and some 16th century Ottoman mail.

[blue lander]

These were sold as "African chain mail gloves" Do you think they're armor or something else? I didn't win the auction

[estcrh]

These were sold as "African chain mail gloves" Do you think they're armor or something else? I didn't win the auctionI have seen another single mail glove like the ones you posted, they must have had some purpose. I was thinking the single one could have been used in falcontry. They do not look like something you would hold a weapon with but you never know.

[Oliver Pinchot]

They're butcher's gloves.

[werdna]

Hello,this is the first post I have made,so if there are mistakes I apologise
I found the photo attached to this post on pinterest but I cannot find any information on the book it comes from.Can somebody please tell me which book this page is from
regards
Andrew Freeston

[Oliver Pinchot]

This was from our (Auctions Imperial) March 2012 sale, lot 244:

https://auctionsimperial.hibid.com/lot/8054612/a-rare-suit-of-sudanese-armor?q=sudanese+armor&cat=true

Oliver