Saudi Saifs

[Lee]

Persian shamshir with Syrian silver work replacements made to Arab taste (or at least that is what a reliable dealer suggested). The older and more worn chape seems to be clearly Persian en suite with the blade:

[A.alnakkas]

Persian shamshir with Syrian silver work replacements made to Arab taste (or at least that is what a reliable dealer suggested). The older and more worn chape seems to be clearly Persian en suite with the blade:


Hey Lee,

This is not a Syrian made saif. Rather its Saudi, likely made in Hayel. A nice early example. Syrians did not make this style, rather it is a more Saudi variation which timeline is part of my current research. I can probably identify who even made the dress :-)

[Lee]

Thank you for the enlightenment! I have always liked the aesthetic of this saif and felt that the workmanship was most admirable. In addition to the decoration, the whole blade and hilt feel very well balanced. Am I correct that the blade would have originated in Persia along with the chape? I looked to see if there is a maker's mark on the mounts, but recognized none. I would appreciate any further enlightenment you may be able to provide.

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Lee,

The blade is Persian yep. Thats not uncommon on these. The mounts are all Saudi (pre-Saudi state actually, an early 20th century piece as mentioned, likely made in Hail)

The maker is likely from Al-bani family. I have swords with similar patterns.

[estcrh]

Hey Lee,

This is not a Syrian made saif. Rather its Saudi, likely made in Hayel. A nice early example. Syrians did not make this style, rather it is a more Saudi variation which timeline is part of my current research. I can probably identify who even made the dress :-)
Beautiful saif, are there any characteristics in particular which could be used to identify a Saudi saif or a Syrian saif. This saif is supposed to be Syrian, does anything about it potentially identify its origin?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Lee,
I cant comment on the sword, as I know too little about this area - but I do love your pictures :-).
Jens

[A.alnakkas]

Beautiful saif, are there any characteristics in particular which could be used to identify a Saudi saif or a Syrian saif. This saif is supposed to be Syrian, does anything about it potentially identify its origin?

Basically, the Syrian saif and the 'saudi' saif are identical except for finer details.

The Saudi saif (I call it Saudi out of convenience, its not Saudi... it predates the Saudi state) can be basically identified by having an Agrab, the chape having a diamond like decoration all over its length and it ends with a loop and a triangle shape. The carrying rings have swollen shaped fittings, these are constructed in a shape different from Syrian swords which often follow the Ottoman design. The hilt on Saudi saifs usually have a hilt pointing away from the quillons, though this is not 100% as some point straight and some point towards the quillons. This all depends on the maker but most makers I located use the pointing away design.

Basically, to sum up my research and not give much details before publishing... I'll state the obvious, the Saudis learnt to make these from the Syrians, my research will show how and who adopted and developed this Saudi design. And through what period. Anyways, as of yet, most Saudi saif design dates at best to the early 20th century. There is a type I call a proto saif which has elements of both Syrian and Saudi designs... But am not sure I want to speak much about this before I am done :-)))

[A.alnakkas]

Thank you for the enlightenment! I have always liked the aesthetic of this saif and felt that the workmanship was most admirable. In addition to the decoration, the whole blade and hilt feel very well balanced. Am I correct that the blade would have originated in Persia along with the chape? I looked to see if there is a maker's mark on the mounts, but recognized none. I would appreciate any further enlightenment you may be able to provide.


Lee,

Can you look at the spine of the scabbard? look at the chape and the locket.

[A.alnakkas]

The Syrian saif if made using Silver or bronze, then the scabbard design is usually in Ottoman style. Iron fitted ones seem to date to the 20th century and modern days. Though made traditionally so its authentic.

[estcrh]

Basically, the Syrian saif and the 'saudi' saif are identical except for finer details...................Basically, to sum up my research and not give much details before publishing... Thanks for what you are able to reveal, hope to see your published work.

[estcrh]

Would I be right in thinking that this saif has a Persian blade with Saudi mounts?

[A.alnakkas]

Would I be right in thinking that this saif has a Persian blade with Saudi mounts?

Saudi mounts yes. But I do not think the blade is Persian. Looks to be Indian. Indian blades are probably the most common.

[estcrh]

Saudi mounts yes. But I do not think the blade is Persian. Looks to be Indian. Indian blades are probably the most common.Very interesting, thanks for the lesson!!

[AJ1356]

Saudi mounts yes. But I do not think the blade is Persian. Looks to be Indian. Indian blades are probably the most common.

I was thinking the same, the blade looks Indian, the style of the inscription is Indian Islamic not Persian.

[Lee]

Here are some additional images ... more to come...

[Lee]

with still more to come...

[A.alnakkas]

with still more to come...

A very decent early piece (early 20th century, which is old for these)

[Lee]

The last group of additional views; the chape has taken quite a beating over the years...

[A.alnakkas]

Nice photography, Lee.

One observation I have collecting these, is that the ones with the bone hilts almost all have the same identical damage. Its always the bone breaking near the pommel cap, and the repairing is done by gluing (traditional) but when they open the pommel cap for repair, when they return it, they do not put the pin back.. or simply the pin is stuck in the tang and putting a new one is probably a hassle.

[A.alnakkas]

This is the damage I am speaking about. Note the cracks on the bone near the pommel caps.

[Lee]

I am most grateful to A.alnakkas for having answered my questions about the mountings of this saif beyond my expectations and I look forward to his publishing his discoveries about the evolution of the saif.

Perhaps someone could help with interpretation of the blade inscription?

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Lee,

it says Nasrun min Allah wa fat'hun qareeb. (Victory from Allah and close conquest)

The inscription is odd. Likely added later... Also, gulf 'saudi' swords are always with a high polish, even the wootz ones. Only collectors etch them, so likely this one was etched and the inscription added.

[Lee]

Thank you again!

I agree entirely that the gold koftari inscription is more recent than the blade itself. It appears to lie in a very shallow depression with a hatched surface to allow the gold to adhere. It does not appear to be new, however; would it be likely it is early 20th century en suite with the Arabian mountings or is it more likely some fakery added well after the swords 'working life?'

I also agree that this blade has been etched since its departure from Arabia, presumably to enhance visibility of the wootz pattern (but not by me). The main blade surface remains quite smooth and fine dark pigmented material is liberated upon each oiling. Very unfortunately, residues of the etchant likely remained on the blade (very important to neutralize and remove this) and then got transferred to the scabbard, leading to some later rusting. Nothing deep and not correctable by a (culturally appropriate, per above) restoration to a bright polish, though I'll just try to keep it oiled and otherwise leave it alone.

[Miguel]

Thank you again!

I agree entirely that the gold koftari inscription is more recent than the blade itself. It appears to lie in a very shallow depression with a hatched surface to allow the gold to adhere. It does not appear to be new, however; would it be likely it is early 20th century en suite with the Arabian mountings or is it more likely some fakery added well after the swords 'working life?'

I also agree that this blade has been etched since its departure from Arabia, presumably to enhance visibility of the wootz pattern (but not by me). The main blade surface remains quite smooth and fine dark pigmented material is liberated upon each oiling. Very unfortunately, residues of the etchant likely remained on the blade (very important to neutralize and remove this) and then got transferred to the scabbard, leading to some later rusting. Nothing deep and not correctable by a (culturally appropriate, per above) restoration to a bright polish, though I'll just try to keep it oiled and otherwise leave it alone.
Hi Lee
Nice thing and great thread, one that I will refer to when I unearth a similar weapon I have in my collection. Thanks for sharing. Miguel

[estcrh]

Lee, thanks for sharing your sword, great photography, I learned some things from your post, the details of the fittings are amazing, someone put a lot of time into it. Any photography tips would be appreciated.

[Lee]

A. alnakkas, Jens, estcrh - thank you for your kind comments on my evolving photographic technique.

The greatest step forward came a few years ago when I invested in a Canon 5D which gave me a fairly fast sensor and a finely detailed image.

For the first couple of years I would take pictures on overcast days in my driveway - this gave a nice diffuse light, but usually the sessions would be cut short by the raindrops.

The driveway operation became untenable as I needed to photograph Lew's collection during winter and so I cobbled together the below studio around an old copy stand:

[Jens Nordlunde]

Lee,
You not only have a beatiful home, you also have a very good photostudio.
Thank you for posting the picture, and please add it to the thread - How to photograph - or whatever it is called. It may give others good ideas of how to make a studio.
Thank you very much
Jens

[Miguel]

Hi Lee
Nice thing and great thread, one that I will refer to when I unearth a similar weapon I have in my collection. Thanks for sharing. Miguel
Finally unearthed my Saif which until this thread I thought was a Persian Shamshir but from the info contained in the thread I now think that it is in the Saudi style having an Ottoman style scabbard with silver fittings Unfortunately the decoration is worn and the end of the chape is missing otherwise it is in pretty good shape for its age which I think is 19thC. You will notice that there is a ring on one Quillon and one should have been on the end of the pommel but has obviously broken off. I think that silver chains may have once been attached but are now lost, I have seen these in in photos of Saifs and wonder why some have them and others don't also why are the hilts always bound with wire between the Qillons and the bone grips which makes it look like they have been repaired?
Miguel

[A.alnakkas]

Hey Miguel, Can you take close ups of the chape?

This is a 20th century piece, early 20th century to be exact and likely made by Sulaiman ibn Bani... Though let me look at the chape and see how its like.

The 19th century saif looked different with a hilt similar to Syrian design.

Lotfy

[A.alnakkas]

With regards to the quillon ring and the one usually find on the pommel, sometimes it can be mismatched, with quillons having a ring and the pommel without. This is due to quillons made from casting silver that is then polished into shape. Also, the reuse of old parts is possible, although the only living maker I contacted did not mention any of that and his creations are all consistent.

[Miguel]

With regards to the quillon ring and the one usually find on the pommel, sometimes it can be mismatched, with quillons having a ring and the pommel without. This is due to quillons made from casting silver that is then polished into shape. Also, the reuse of old parts is possible, although the only living maker I contacted did not mention any of that and his creations are all consistent.
Hi A.alnakkas, Thank you for your informative reply. You can see on the pommel end the remains of a stub which I think was where the ring was but I do get your point. With regard to the photos of the chape I apologise for their quality which is mainly due to me and my camera.
Regards Miguel

[Miguel]

Hi A.alnakkas, Thank you for your informative reply. You can see on the pommel end the remains of a stub which I think was where the ring was but I do get your point. With regard to the photos of the chape I apologise for their quality which is mainly due to me and my camera.
Regards Miguel
Hi, me again. Since posting I've noticed what may be an inscription on one edge of the scabbard throat piece and attached a photo for your infoRegards Miguel

[A.alnakkas]

Looks like the name of the owner. Nayef ibn AbdulAziz.. a common name in the region so hard to know who.

As for the stub on the pommel, that actually not the place for the ring, that usually holds a stone.

[A.alnakkas]

Its made by the same guy who made this one :-)

[Lee]

So many very nice old saifs. I am really enjoying this thread.

[A.alnakkas]

So many very nice old saifs. I am really enjoying this thread.

The maker of those supposedly died either in the 60's or the 70's I am not sure. And not sure if he died of old age.

[Miguel]

The maker of those supposedly died either in the 60's or the 70's I am not sure. And not sure if he died of old age.
Hi A. ainakkas,
Thank you for taking the time and for your info on my Saif. Is the maker the person you thought it may have been i.e. Sulaiman ibn Bani or is it someone else? I would love to Know.
Regards Miguel

[A.alnakkas]

Hi A. ainakkas,
Thank you for taking the time and for your info on my Saif. Is the maker the person you thought it may have been i.e. Sulaiman ibn Bani or is it someone else? I would love to Know.
Regards Miguel

I think so, the craftsmanship is near identical to Sulaiman's work but without an inscription declaring it as his work, one cant be certain.

These are all hand crafted, unlike some later work shops that use some printing/pressed silver methods when making certain parts. Hopefully my research once published it will pinpoint the work of all identifiable swordmaker.

[Miguel]

I think so, the craftsmanship is near identical to Sulaiman's work but without an inscription declaring it as his work, one cant be certain.

These are all hand crafted, unlike some later work shops that use some printing/pressed silver methods when making certain parts. Hopefully my research once published it will pinpoint the work of all identifiable swordmaker.
Thanks once again for the information, your knowledge on this subject has made this thread so very interesting and for me personally very satisfying, I hope your research will be published pretty soon.
Best regards
Miguel

[Richard G]

Hello Mr Alnakkas,
Is the name Mohammed bin Bani, in the 1920's, familiar to you? I think I have it on one of these saifs.
Regards
Richard

[A.alnakkas]

Hello Mr Alnakkas,
Is the name Mohammed bin Bani, in the 1920's, familiar to you? I think I have it on one of these saifs.
Regards
Richard

Yes, Mohammed bin Bani is a sword maker and related to Sulaiman and AbdulAziz bin Bani. They all descend from one of the earliest maker in the area.

Do you have any item with his name and a date?

[Richard G]

Yes, I have a saif of this type signed on the back of the scabbard (but this is my translation) Amal Mohammed bin Bani and dated, elsewhere on the scabbard AH 1341. Do I surmise from earlier comments that this was probably made in Hail?
Regards
Richard

[A.alnakkas]

Yes, I have a saif of this type signed on the back of the scabbard (but this is my translation) Amal Mohammed bin Bani and dated, elsewhere on the scabbard AH 1341. Do I surmise from earlier comments that this was probably made in Hail?
Regards
Richard

Not necessarily. Can I see the saif? Mohammed and Sulaiman may have moved outside Hail after the fall of Al-Rashid. To add more info; one supposedly moved to Makkah and the other in Riyadh, where they continued to make swords.

[Richard G]

OK, thanks for the info. I will give it a bit of a rub over and try and take some photo's. Don't expect too much too soon tho!, altho' the saif is a very nice one.
Richard

[Richard G]

OK, Mr Alnakkas,
Eventually, if I can master the technology,

[A.alnakkas]

OK, Mr Alnakkas,
Eventually, if I can master the technology,

Thanks for sharing, thats one of the most beautiful saifs I have ever seen :-)

[A.alnakkas]

here is a sword in my collection with a rather illusive maker. This is the only sword I saw with his name and no one seems to know him. Sword dates to 1936 and was in a rough condition but was restored by a professional.

There are a few oddities about this piece compared to other saifs, that includes thicker silver dress and the use of deer horn. The original was in a very rough shape, basically crumbles when held so the maker got a new horn and made it in exact dimensions. Everything was perfect except for a simple discolouration that I thought is acceptable since its natural.

[A.alnakkas]

This is the last sword I have posted, showing close ups of the craftsmanship. One of the best I know of, the engraving on the silver is very high quality.

The silver seems bright, that because this sword was recently restored as it was in horrid condition, to say the least.

[estcrh]

Thanks for sharing, thats one of the most beautiful saifs I have ever seen :-)
That is quite a compliment.

[Richard G]

Hello,
I have another one. This has an unmarked and unfullered watered blade. I am hoping Lotfy or Ibrahim will be again generous enough to give me a translation. On the bottom of the locket, beneath the bands of script and just above the mount for the ring is, I think, the makers name.
Many thanks for any help received.
Regards
Richard

[estcrh]

Lotfy, another one with a short chape.

[A.alnakkas]

Nice earlier saif, Richard. I am very interested in seeing better images of the maker's name. As this is slightly earlier it will be immensely appreciated if the maker's name is shown.

As for the script in the locket, these generally have generic script although sometimes the owner's name too.

Your's say's "For its owner a long life and good health" which is very common on this variation.

This type I date as earlier due to photographic evidence. And have tracked some makers.

[Richard G]

Thank you Lotfy,
Sorry for the delay, I have had problems with the last update on the PC.
Anyway here they are:-
Nos 1 & 2 are on the front of the scabbard.
Nos 3 & 4 which should be reversed, if you see what I mean, are on the reverse (seamed) side of the scabbard.

[A.alnakkas]

Thank you Lotfy,
Sorry for the delay, I have had problems wiy the last update on the PC.
Anyway here they are

Hey Richard,

Can you email the photos, I need high definition ones to zoom in.

[Richard G]

Wow! that was quick. I'll try.
Richard
PS. Have sent a PM

[A.alnakkas]

Saif made in the city of Ha'il. Blade is European? there is latin script on it that I cannot read.

[LeonymusBosch]

Dear friends,

Would someone be willing to confirm the determination of this saif saber?

227370

It seems to be a 20th century production. An Arab friend helped me translate the inscription on the blade:

،،، السيف عزة مجد أنت قابضها ،،،


،،، وعزة المجد لا تأتيك بالوهن ،،،


،،، ففي السيوف دفاع العرب والوطن ،،،

The sword is the height of glory, O bearer, and in the height of glory you shall not be wearied; as the sword is the pride [defender] of all the Arabs, and the sword is the defender of the Arabs and the homeland.

227367
227368
227369

What is curious is that it has the number 4 stamped on the crossguard and the sheath which could indicate a more industrial production? The grip seems to be plated with a sort of plastic, which the author says smells like pinewood when burnt? :confused:

227365
227366

What do you guys think. Also do you have any indication on the worth of such sabers?

Thanks!

[A.alnakkas]

Hello,

Mounts are very recent, made in Syria. Those were mostly made for decoration and sometimes as state gifts. The koftgari looks new.

But the blade looks genuine and old, which is a common practice to refit old blades. Have an expert test it for wootz.

[LeonymusBosch]

Thank you very much!