Please help with translation from Farsi.

[mahratt]

Please help with translation from Farsi.

[kronckew]

looks like a powder measure...

[mahratt]

looks like a powder measure...


I know that it is - a powder measure. The question is how to translate the inscription on it ...

[BANDOOK]

Hi mahratt, my wife is Persian and says its not FARSI script but its written in Arabic which translates as 'For God but God and MOHAMMED is the Messenger of God.
sounds like this in English: la ilaha ela allah mohmmadan rasoul allah[part of the script is bit obscured]
hope this helps regards
Rajesh

[mahratt]

Hi mahratt, my wife is Persian and says its not FARSI script but its written in Arabic which translates as 'For God but God and MOHAMMED is the Messenger of God.
sounds like this in English: la ilaha ela allah mohmmadan rasoul allah[part of the script is bit obscured]
hope this helps regards
Rajesh


Dear Rajesh!

Many thanks!

Dmitriy

[kronckew]

I know that it is - a powder measure. The question is how to translate the inscription on it ...

i know you probably knew and only wanted a translation, but others might not know, as you did not provide any detail other than a photo.

as this forum is a repository for research, it is nice to provide information for posterity. at least now it will show up in a forum search by others looking for powder measures.

little details on our big boy's toys like a description, provenance, size, composition, weight etc. add so much more richness to those admiring your stuff. and aid in others replying with information YOU may want to hear.

one must give as well as take. a famous philosopher who once greatly influenced a rather large country that i know you are familiar with, said 'from each according to their ability' before 'to each according to their needs' for a reason. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

i know you probably knew and only wanted a translation, but others might not know, as you did not provide any detail other than a photo.

as this forum is a repository for research, it is nice to provide information for posterity. at least now it will show up in a forum search by others looking for powder measures.

little details on our big boy's toys like a description, provenance, size, composition, weight etc. add so much more richness to those admiring your stuff. and aid in others replying with information YOU may want to hear.

one must give as well as take. a famous philosopher who once greatly influenced a rather large country that i know you are familiar with, said 'from each according to their ability' before 'to each according to their needs' for a reason. :shrug:

Salaams Kronckew and All, I think the words spoken here are absolutely fine and honourable so it would be a huge shame and dis service if Forum were to degenerate into simply pictures...Especially where such an item has good historical detail available to research.

We have a number of similar powder load devices likely to have come from Ottoman sources in Oman...and they make excellent artifacts for study. Actually a friend and client recently gave his entire collection largely purchased from me to Durham University UK.... for their students to study...in an archaeology / history related program.

The importance of research cannot be over stressed on such items at a time when so much stuff is being destroyed or stolen. Notwithstanding that it is only courteous and proper to add what you can, however little, or even in the case of knowing nothing to admit that and call for assistance...

In essence ..(though I make room here for a certain degree of fun and joviality in the collecting world) we have supporting the Forum what is in fact a grand Library record of all our notes so that perhaps in the future someone can carry on the quest for the knowledge I am rattling on about here... and not simply to become a drop box for pictures.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[mahratt]

little details on our big boy's toys like a description, provenance, size, composition, weight etc.

This powder measure was purchased in the United Arab Emirates. Seller - an Afghan, who brought it from Afghanistan. Dimensions: length - 16cm, diameter - 2 cm. Material - iron.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Mahratt ~This is a fine item and in particular with its multi sided shape and script this is a rare piece.
Please See; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Powder_Measure_Ottoman_17_century.jpg for a similar 17th Century Ottoman powder measure.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kronckew]

yes, thanks for fleshing this out. it's a nice piece and deserves it's place in our histories. if only they could talk to us....

[mahratt]

Salaams Mahratt ~This is a fine item and in particular with its multi sided shape and script this is a rare piece.
Please See; https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Powder_Measure_Ottoman_17_century.jpg for a similar 17th Century Ottoman powder measure.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Thank you, Ibrahiim.

I've seen this picture before. I think that not Ottoman and Persian powder measure.

Although, of course, I could be wrong. But detail, which is a red circle - not typical of Ottoman items. But often found in Persian and Afghan items.

Regards,
Dmitriy.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you, Ibrahiim.

I've seen this picture before. I think that not Ottoman and Persian powder measure.

Although, of course, I could be wrong. But detail, which is a red circle - not typical of Ottoman items. But often found in Persian and Afghan items.

Regards,
Dmitriy.


Salaams...The provenance shown seems right ...and the source is respectable I think... See http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O71956/powder-measure-unknown/ for other examples where there is a crown shaped circle on top of the two top flasks...I see no reason why Ottoman loading items would not end up in Persian Afghan hands ... or if copies were made?

However, having said that...I think you are correct... Persian. Heres another reference on a sold Safavid item https://auctionata.com/intl/o/41627/safavid-steel-powder-measure-persia-17th18th-c?cat=shop/islamic-art


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

... one must give as well as take. a famous philosopher who once greatly influenced a rather large country that i know you are familiar with, said 'from each according to their ability' before 'to each according to their needs' for a reason. :shrug:...

... Notwithstanding that it is only courteous and proper to add what you can, however little, or even in the case of knowing nothing to admit that and call for assistance...
Come on guys; the forum appreciates your zeal but, no need to tie Dmitriy to the wipping post ;) .
I would recall that these devices were once or twice discussed in the Ethno section and so are registered in the forum archives (which Ibrahiim enjoys calling library :D ). Looks like their Persian name is WAZNA-I-BARUT (Stones glossary).

[BANDOOK]

HERE IS MY POWDER MEASURE WHICH FORUM MEMBERS TOLD ME THAT IT WAS FROM OTTOMON EMPIRE,REPOSTING IT,CHEERS

[fernando]

And here is mine. I assume that, being made in brass, is not so old :shrug: .


,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

See Forum Library ... at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6310&highlight=accessories for a comparison...
:shrug:

A nice comparison appears at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/194147433908822536/


In my opinion these are European or from the European ...Here is a description of a very similar item ...

A FINE & RARE 17TH CENTURY GERMAN/DUTCH MATCHLOCK MUSKETEER’S ALL-STEEL ADJUSTABLE POWDER-MEASURE/CHARGER, ca. 1600: In overall fine untouched condition with smooth, deeply oxidized and dark, chiseled, steel surfaces. Retains its original, pull-out, adjustable powder-measure with a graduated and rectangular arm, its circular powder-plunger and a finely chiseled, rivet-fastened, suspension-loop with pierced decorations, at its base--- for a cord/attachment to a Bandolier. The wrought-forged and finely sculpted, cylindrical form, steel body, en suite with generally smooth, untouched, richly patinated surfaces and some forge/hammer-marks, a brazed medial seam, some scattered light abrasions and expected signs of use. The integrally forged, scoop-type pouring mouth with matching wrought-forged steel surfaces and its sides are adorned with pierced and chiseled accents. Very good, rust-patinated interior surfaces with patches of pitting and oxidation. A very early and rare 17th Matchlock Musketeer’s Powder Charger/Measure, ca. 1600. Of typical German/Dutch design with finely crafted and untouched surfaces. The interior, en suite with evident rust-stains. Overall length, 5 1/2” or 7 ½” fully extended. For similar examples, please see H. L. Peterson’s: Treasury of the Gun” and M. L. Brown’s: “Firearms in Colonial America…”. A Very Scarce 17th Century Piece of Military/Soldier’s Equiptment.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Come on guys; the forum appreciates your zeal but, no need to tie Dmitriy to the wipping post ;) .
I would recall that these devices were once or twice discussed in the Ethno section and so are registered in the forum archives (which Ibrahiim enjoys calling library :D ). Looks like their Persian name is WAZNA-I-BARUT (Stones glossary).


Ola Fernando ! Yes you are right about the terminology Wazna I Barut or Wazna Y Barut and I recall the late Anthony North illustration and detail in his "Introduction to Islamic Arms".
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AJ1356]

Hi mahratt, my wife is Persian and says its not FARSI script but its written in Arabic which translates as 'For God but God and MOHAMMED is the Messenger of God.
sounds like this in English: la ilaha ela allah mohmmadan rasoul allah[part of the script is bit obscured]
hope this helps regards
Rajesh

This translation of the Shahada is wrong, (There is no other god but God and Mohammad is the Messenger of God)

Dmitriy,
The text on this item is not Farsi, my guess is it is Turkish or maybe Uzbek, both languages are similar, I would lean towards Turkish. You have to keep in mind that Afghanistan and the Ottoman Empire had close military relationships, so it is not unlikely to find something Turkish in Afghanistan.

[mahratt]

This translation of the Shahada is wrong, (There is no other god but God and Mohammad is the Messenger of God)

Dmitriy,
The text on this item is not Farsi, my guess is it is Turkish or maybe Uzbek, both languages are similar, I would lean towards Turkish. You have to keep in mind that Afghanistan and the Ottoman Empire had close military relationships, so it is not unlikely to find something Turkish in Afghanistan.

Dear AJ

Thank you for your opinion.

I can not agree with you that it is the subject of the Turkish or Turkish inscription. The Ottoman Empire began its relationship with Afghanistan before World War I (early 20th century). It comes to Afghanistan military advisers and modern firearms. It would be strange if the emissaries of the Ottoman Empire instead of modern rifles were brought into Afghanistan to powder measures for for old guns.

Dima

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thats funny... I thought we had agreed it was Arabic as at #4 ? :shrug: