Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

[Pusaka]

How difficult is it to work meteorite pamor? I have been told that it is much harder to work meteorite pamor to achieve a desired pamor then it would be to make it with pure nickel material. Has anyone got any photos to explain the posibilitys/dificultys? Is it difficult to produce a good controlled pamor with meteorite material?

[Andrew]

What type of meteorite are you referring to?

I would suggest a search of the archives for discussions about meteorites. Here's an interesting thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=269&highlight=meteor

[Rick]

Read this .

Gentlemen:
I am honored to present to you the comments of Dr. James Hrisoulas on meteoric material, its components, and words about the forging process.

Part 1

Iron meteorites are characterized by the presence of two nickel-iron
substances: kamacite and taenite. These, combined with minor amounts of
nonmetallic and sulfide minerals, form the three basic types of Fe/Ni
meteorites. Depending upon the percentage of nickel/iron, these are:
hexahedrites (4-6% Ni) octahedrites (6-12% Ni) ataxites (12+% Ni) .

Now the most common of these would be the Octahedrites, and these, when
properly etched exhibit the well known Widmanstatten pattern* (that everyone
goes gaw-gaw over...).
http://www.meteorlab.com/METEORLAB2001dev/widpatrn.htm
This unique crystal structure/pattern is the result of
the combination of the two nickel-iron minerals kamacite and taenite being
present in approximately equal amounts.

Now that we have the bare bones basics out of the way I can get into the nuts
and bolts. There was no way that any "ancient" smith/empu or anyone could
know just from looking at any given fragment of Fe/Ni material exactly what
they got ahold of. Now one must realize that the majority of Fe production at
this time was more or less hit or miss when it came to "quality" and even
then, that was speculative at best. Grading bloom iron was done by eye,
experience and sometime "voo-doo metallurgy"..otherwise known as a blind
guess, Now with experience and consistent methods in smelting a smith could
get pretty good at separating the good from the not so great and go from
there. I am NOT saying that the material was "bad," but it all depended upon
the abilities and the skill of the smith involved, This is where the
legendary smiths got started...Ones that had the "eye" and the "feel" to make
decent iron, to make decent steel and to make the best whatever. Anyway,
back on track.

So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it
hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out
of 10 this way. You need top "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a
good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron
bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as
getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself
without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called).
Now it is not unusual to have to add additional native Fe during this
refinement as you loose to scale, oxidation and weld material loss between 3
to 7% of the volume every time a weld is made. The amount of loss varies with
the skill and the working habits of the smith.

Note: the following is for a "one piece laminate blade", not one with a
centre core of higher C content steel:

So you have the stuff "refined" and then you go onto the lamination... Now,
since there is very little C content, this will have to be welded to a higher
C content material, and from what I could find from doing examinations of
blade shards, it must of been between 0.80 and 1.25% C material. as the C
content in the laminate was at the norm, between 0.40/45% and 0.60/70% C..
(Usually 0.40%+ C is required to harden...this does vary a bit...)

Now Ni does not form carbides, but the Ni content is not high enough to form
a C barrier to C migration, so by the time the Fe/Ni material is refined,
whatever C content was in the native Fe would be more or less homogenous
throughout that material, and depending upon where the piece was positioned
in the fire, additional C may have been introduced to the material or removed
from it...


For a three piece (Two laminate with one high carbon center section) blade
the following was usually the way it was done:

When the Fe/Ni is welded and laminated back unto itself, whatever C content
that was in the native steel that was introduced into the mix would now be
well distributed into the blade... This is why a lot of the traditionally
made Keris have a higher C content center steel section within the laminate,
as by the time the blade's outer "skin" (the patterned section) had a
somewhat lower C content than would be optimal for hardening.

Now this is all in very general terms here, and there are exceptions....
-
First, there has been a lot of rumor surrounding the composition of Fe/Ni meteorites, and most of this mentions Ti... Now in all the Fe/Ni material I have examined, and from all the material I have seen analyzed, Ti simply is NOT present. Period.

"Typical" content of various elements are:

C: 0.05 to 0.20% Co: 0.50 to 0.72% Cu: 0.03 to 0.09% Cr: 0.04 to 0.10%

Fe: 87.3 to 92.9% Ni: 4.1 to 12.9%+ P: 0.10 to 0.30% S: 0.08 to 0.20%

Now realize that the above are average ranges for the material that I have seen doc's on and that has been otherwise examined. Ti has, as far as I know never been mentioned as far as being in a Fe/Ni material. Now in stony material, yes, but in only trace amounts.

So what causes the pamor effect? Well, the C content isn't high enough so it is the Ni content mainly. Interesting point, one of the most "common" materials nowadays for pattern welding is L-6 steel which has a Ni content of only 1.75% (AISI spec's) and that material is favoured for its contrast with simple carbon steels (like a 10XX series), and the L-6 has less than 25% of the Ni than most Fe/Ni meteorites. It is the higher Ni content, along with the grain structure that can cause welding difficulties.

Now since this material has such an elevated Ni content, a very "clean' fire must be used. Charcoal would be excellent for this purpose, as would a properly "tuned" gas furnace or a very well coked and CLEAN burning coal fire. The Ni does have a tendency to "pick up" all sorts of nasties in the atmosphere at such a high temperature, and this can (and usually is) very detrimental to the welding processes. So clean burning fuels are a requirement ... but be that as it may.

How to tell? You really can't. Well, you can't without destructive testing. Some folks believe that meteoric pamor has a "greasy" feel, some say it has a "rough" feel and some say it even feels "prickly." Outside of actually watching the smith/empu work from the raw materials, the only way is metallurgical testing for alloy composition and that is a destructive test. And even then, if you don't know what to look for, you may not be able to tell.

Now if you have a bone-fide "pre western world" contact Keris, and it shows a high contrast pamor, I would venture to say that it is probably extraterrestrial material. Simply due to the fact that Ni is present in such "large amounts."

What does this mean? Actually, nothing in terms of a weapon/tool.. As far as the extraterrestrial stuff goes, it is a "raw material"....nothing more really. It does make for a good story though (I will refrain from getting into the esoteric). BUT,,,,no matter what the "olde tyme" smith/empu used, it is still some damn fine work considering that the "art" at the time where they practiced was little more than early Iron Age technology. I have literally 100s and 100s of Keris in my collections, along with kamplian, tambok, mandao and other pieces from that part of the world and it is truly amazing when one considers that these pieces were done with little more than a fire and a couple of rocks.

All in all, there really isn't a reliable way (other than destructive testing) to say that any given piece is extraterrestrial. Not unless you actually watch the maker from start to finish.

Now there was a heated discussion amongst several metallurgists that I comverse with a while back about the extraterrestrial material in Keris and other items from that part of the world, saying that the use of Fe/Ni meteorite resulted in the ever so rough surface after several etchings. Well, these folks should know better than to say that, given the nature of hand making iron and then turning the bloom into steel. The repeated welding/forging/welding processes, coupled with the cementation of C into the iron top form blister steel, and the further stacking and then welding of the blister material into shear steel would result in a "rough" surface appearance when etched for a considerable length of time. Sometimes folks "forget" the obvious for looking at the not to obvious.

So anyway, that's all I can tell you about extraterrestrial materials as far as Pamor goes, I know it's not what you really wanted to hear but there is no "fool proof" way to tell if there is extraterrestrial material in any given piece, outside of destructive testing. And this is especially true if the smith/empu of any given piece was "worth his salt" and properly refined the meteorite before he incorporated it into the native iron. I have done literally 100s of pieces of pattern welded material with Fe/Ni meteorite in them and they all "worked differently" and well, I think that they turned out rather well, but the amount of time involved in just working the meteorite down to a usable material is considerable, and this is employing "modern" equipment such as gas furnaces and power hammers, and even then, the first few welding/drawing coursed must be done by hand or else you will have meteorite fragments flying all over at 2100 degrees F! Just being able to refine this material is amazing to me given the level of tooling and technology that these smiths/empu were working with. Well, it's just like I have said in the past, it isn't the tool that makes the art, it is the ARTIST.

Jim Hrisoulas

[Andrew]

That's outstanding! Thank you Jim. :)


Rick, did you get this from Jim specifically in response to this thread?

[Jeff Pringle]

I have been told that it is much harder to work meteorite pamor to achieve a desired pamor then it would be to make it with pure nickel material...Is it difficult to produce a good controlled pamor with meteorite material?
The main difference/difficulty between meteoric material and pure nickel or hi-N steel is that, as Dr. Hrisoulas says, you have to turn the meteorite into workable metal before you can use it in a laminate. Commercial sources of nickel and steel give you ready-made strips of material that is uniform in size and thickness, very easy to weld together into predictable patterns. With meteorites, you have the not-so-easy process of refining the metal and turning it into uniform strips to mix with low-nickel metal before you can start making it into pamor.
Once you have gone through the effort of turning the meteorite into useable metal, it's not all that different from using commercial metal, but that first step is a considerable one.
Jeff

[nechesh]

Thanks Jim, and thanks Rick for passing that on. A very informative post, but it is my suspicion that Pusaka is more interested in how difficult the process would be today than in the past. I could be wrong, but from past postings i got the impression that he was looking for someone to forge a new keris with meteoric pamor for himself. Still, your post shows how difficult (though certainly do-able) the process is.
I would disagree with Jim on one passage:

Now if you have a bone-fide "pre western world" contact Keris, and it shows a high contrast pamor, I would venture to say that it is probably extraterrestrial material. Simply due to the fact that Ni is present in such "large amounts."

It seems probable that much of the nickelous pamor material used was pamor luwu from Sulawesi. Though Groneman's studies show Ni content of that material at only 0.4%, Bronson, in his paper "Terrestial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Kris" shows that there are deposits of ore on that island with at least 2.2% nickel content. I could be mistaken, but i believe that this level of Ni content would be sufficient to produce fairly high contrast patterns in pamor. Contrasting pamor, though not always nickelous in nature, where reported as early as 1433 in the descriptions of the knives carried by all Javanese men written by the Ma Haun. It is doubtful, IMO, that these early pamors were the product of meteoric Ni.

[Pusaka]

Thanks for all the info guys

I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else :D so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. Once the pamor is made is it more difficult to control then pure nickel, because that is what I was told.

[Rick]

That's outstanding! Thank you Jim. :)


Rick, did you get this from Jim specifically in response to this thread?

Hi Andrew , no ; this was on the old forum where a similar question came up .
I contacted Dr. Hrisoulas and asked him if he would be kind enough to comment on the subject .

Since this subject has come up before I thought I'd just 'cut to the chase' and present this again for ease of access .

[Rick]

Thanks for all the info guys

I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else :D so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. Once the pamor is made is it more difficult to control then pure nickel, because that is what I was told.

Pusaka , please ........
Do you really think these guys are actually buying meteorite on ebay to make keris with ?

Especially when the only way you could tell if it was real would be through destructive testing !?!

Please pardon my skepticism . :rolleyes:

[Jeff Pringle]

Believe it or not, Ebay is one of the main meteorite market places nowadays, the place to go in between mineral shows or if you don't have a dealer lined up. And yes, there are a few fake meteorites up for sale on any given day, but most of the stuff is real, and the meteorite dealers discuss the fakes on their discussion lists. The hard part of getting meteorites on ebay is knowing when you got a deal, and of course not getting sniped when you do get a deal. But the market for meteorites is such that some irons are generally cheap, some amazingly expensive, so with a little caution you can pick up forgeable extra-terrestrial iron for pennies a gram - which in itself is amazing.
Better to get a good relationship with a dealer, if you can find one who will give you wholesale prices, but ebay will do in a pinch.
Once the pamor is made is it more difficult to control then pure nickel, because that is what I was told.
Pure Nickel is more predictable, but also more prone to shearing when you are manipulating the metal and more of a pain (difficult to get a flawless weld) in secondary welding operations, or at least that's been my experience. A little more control in patterning, but a little more annoying too :rolleyes:

[Pusaka]

Pusaka , please ........
Do you really think these guys are actually buying meteorite on ebay to make keris with ?

Especially when the only way you could tell if it was real would be through destructive testing !?!

Please pardon my skepticism . :rolleyes:

O thanks for your skepticism, I find it most refreshing :D

[Rick]

O thanks for your skepticism, I find it most refreshing :D

Unfortunately I cannot say the same for your naivete . :rolleyes:

You have a long road of learning (about keris culture and Indonesia) ahead of you young man ; and unless you can be present for the forging of your 'meteorite' keris and actually see the meteorite incorporated into the wilah I fear very much that you will be duped . :(

[Pusaka]

My comment was more to the manner in which you said it then what you said, Where I come from this >>> (:rolleyes: )is an insult so why use it? Is there any need to be rude??

[BluErf]

Ok, its time to take a deep breath, everyone... :)

[nechesh]

Well Pusaka, i wouldn't get too hung up on emoticons. I have never personally seen ( :rolleyes: ) as a direct insult, just simply sarcasm. Don't lose sight of the content because of it. I say this because whether or nor you like the way Rick said it, i would agree with him that the likelihood of your commissioned meteorite keris not having any actual meteorite in it could be pretty high and it would be nearly impossible to tell one way or the other once the keris is forged.
So a huge caveat emptor here, my friend. :)

[Rick]

< Deep breath taken ; thank you Kai Wee > :)

Pusaka , if you read post #3 I think you would have seen the following passage :

" So you give a smith a chunk of meteorite, they think it is iron, they get it
hot, smash it with a hammer and it crumbles to bits. It'll happen 9 times out
of 10 this way. You need to "flatten it gently" and then sheath it in a
good quality iron and weld it back, very similar to refining wrought iron
bloom. This will help drive out all the "crud" and impurities as well as
getting the grain structure refined and allowing it to weld back to itself
without the red short effect (this is what the crumbling is commonly called). "

The Pandai Keris forges of Jawa and Madura are not flush with Yoder power hammers and all sorts of modern equipment to do their work . They would doubtless still use the old method by hand as described in the above passage by Dr. Hrisoulas .

So when you say :

" I’m guessing that modern Indonesian keris makers would get their meteorites from ebay like anyone else so nickel content and therefore pamor contrast would vary greatly depending what meteorite you selected. I am more interested in the difficulty’s a modern keris maker would face. "

My eyes roll ; why would an Indonesian Pandai keris (not Empu) waste his money (what little he has) bidding for meteor pieces on ebay for inclusion into the pamor of a keris which when finished cannot be proven to have meteoritic pamor without destructive testing when it would be so much easier just to claim meteoritic origin ?

So I guess that it would be *possible* for your scenario to happen but IMO it's very unlikely .

[Pusaka]

I was told of a different method of making the meteorite pamor. It is true that when you heat a meteorite it will crumble into bits. I was told that iron filings are mixed with the meteorite and then pounded together to form a usable pamor material.

[Pusaka]

According to Ki Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo: http://www.joglosemar.co.id/whos/djeno.html

“Physically, the materials for manufacturing must be prepared such as, 12 Kg of Iron; 0.5 Kg of Nickel, 100 grams of meteorite”

This means that a typical meteorite pamor keris consists of 95% Iron, 4% Nickel and only 1% meteorite material.

It would indeed be impossible to detect that 1% meteorite content without chemical analysis.

I’m guessing that he adds the extra nickel to obtain a bright pamor as the meteorite if used without adding nickel would probably produce a dull pamor.

[purwacarita]

And it is still called meteorite though it is already technically engineered on earth ? I thought meteorite is extra terrestrial metal. Darn. :)

Traditional methods usually have empirical approaches and tends to stray the constructiev progress to superstitions. Modern methods usually have technical scientific engineering approaches and tends to deny the real magic of the old world with logic.

This thread will not be complete if the metal tempering area has not been covered. Like I was told that keris is tempered by dipping the whole blade into water without any temperature and timing standard but only by the smith's feeling. And still it could produce a variation blade texture like the pamor materials go out of the surface or dive into the blade, making a beautiful pamor of Ron Genduro or Bulu Ayam. Is that the same meteorite, just temper play (e.g partial tempering) or because different hardness of different metal which harder metal squeezes softer one during tempering? :)

Is it scientificly possible that combined mixture of metals in pamor could naturally produce electro-voltaic energy like a electro-static capacitor?

Hmm., I don't see any use of the answers for myself :rolleyes: but it could be useful to others who might need it to improve keris smith in Indonesia. Thank you in advance for your gentle answers, you know, I do try to ask the question gently. :)


~Hing ngarson sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani :)

[nechesh]

Gee Purwacarita, you asked the question so gently that i'm not even sure exactly what it is you are asking.....or trying to say. :)
And would you mind translating that last line for this ignorant American? :)

[purwacarita]

Hi nechesh. It's good to read your gentle sarcasm once again. Last time you charged this innocent :rolleyes: young man with accusation of disrespect. :o

I recall that I've described the meaning in my last post several months ago, and now you ask me to describe it once again while you ignore it ? Please,.... give me a break! :rolleyes: Many others can do the job much better than me. :)

It is a philosophycal principle of idealism of life by Ki Hajar Dewantara. He is reknown as the father of education of Indonesia. The meaning of the principle is that people have three positions, in front, in the middle, and in the rear. Where people in front position should give good examples, while people in the middle shall share spirit with their surrounding neighbor to constructiveness. At last where people in the rear position must stimulate others with contructive motivation. It is felt that the difference between these three position is that people in front is somehow entitled leaders, in the middle - the workers, in the rear - wives. :rolleyes: Though in the beginning this saying is the principle mostly refers to teachers in education field, nowadays only a few is willing to explore to its deeper meaning. It is an Indonesia national saying rarely spoken again, I hate it when you're right, but more or less it's because of capitalism like you quoted earlier.

We have a national symbol too which has a saying in the ribbon banner, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika. It means Diversity in Unity. So easy to say but very hard to implement specially in new communities where everyone else is different. I guess that what causes the 2 blasts and Jagadnata bombing, some people cannot accept that we are different from them.



~Hing ngarso sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut Wuri Handayani. :) Gitu Loh! :)

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Pusaka, I believe joglosemar wrongfully quote Empu Djeno. If we use meteorite as a pamor material, we needs roughly twice times than the pure nickel amount. So, it should be : "0.5 Kg. Meteorite, 100 grams (pure) Nickel". We should put "or" between meteorite and nickel, since when you have 0.5Kg good meteorite at hand, it should be sufficient to make a good pamor without the additions of nickel, and if we have 100 gram nickel it should also sufficient, and any additions of meteorite should be considered as "magical purpose". 0.5 kg nickel would be too much. (IMHO, the correct entry should be: 12 Kg iron, 0.5 Kg Steel, 100 gr. Nickel or 200 gr meteorite). Please remember, I'm talking about a very good pamor material, as good as Prambanan Meteorite. Having opportunity of handling personally this pamor, I must say, it resembles a pieces of iron than a piece of stone. It shows metallic-grey when you scratch it, and it is very likely that you don't need to wrap it with a stripe of wrought iron to prepare it, as long as you hammer it carefully. Empu Jeno, I believe, was only working succesfully on this very good meteorite pamor material, when Sultan HB IX commisioned a keris, and didn't add any nickel since he had sufficient amount. Empu Jeno told me that he needs to put the big chunk on forge for 3 days just to cut a small pieces of material needed. He also told me that once a Belgian came to commision a keris and also brought meteorite as the pamor material. But Jeno said that it was "unproper type" meteorite, and thus, he could not use it. I have never heard that Empu Jeno works on meteorite pamor material other than Prambanans. This meteorite, and kerises, will be exhibited in Sekaten Festival of Kraton Jogjakarta, which will be held this year on 1 - 11 April 2006.

Best Regards,


Boedhi Adhitya

[purwacarita]

What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit?


~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. :)

[Pusaka]

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for that information. What is the maximum quantity of meteorite material you could successfully forge a keris with?
I remember being told that meteorite material used to be sold in the market in Solo, Jawa. If so what was that meteorite used for and where did it come from, it is doubtful that it was from the prambanan meteor IMO.

Purwacarita, interesting question. I have often wondered the same. The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.
It is possible that you may get a primitive voltaic pile effect which would produce a miniscule surface current. In that case some pamor types would be better then others at producing it but it would have no practical use.

[nechesh]

Thank you Pusaka for making clearer the "gentle" question Purwacarita was attempting to ask. I was more curious about that than the translation, but i do appreciate Purwa going into the explanation of it's meaning again.
Purwacarita, that was some time ago. Indonesian is not my language and though it did look somewhat familar i couldn't really place it. So your "Please......give me a break! :rolleyes: " was really un-called for. I meant no sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. This is an English speaking forum and i believe that it has been asked many times in the past that translations be provided.
I would also ask that you don't enter into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder. If you have a problem with anything i said to you in the past i ask that you either keep it there or work it out with me in PM. I try to treat everyone here fairly based upon the dialog of the PRESENT. Dregging up past disputes in unrelated debates is both counterproductive and distructive to the current discussion, don't you think? :)
Pusaka, if you read carefully through the thread that Andrew linked in the beginning of this thread i think you will find a post that references a book which makes mention of the fact that empus were often given quite a bit more Prambanan meteorite than was necessary to make the commissioned keris. Perhaps this could explain at least some of the meteorite that used to be found on sale in Javanese marketplaces. :)

[Montino Bourbon]

In very early times meteoritic material was incorporated into blades because it was an available form of relatively refined iron. Later on, it was incorporated more for the 'Power' aspect, as it "came from the sky".

I have heard of keris that were made with various irons and steels, including one made from eight different types of steel, all of which were stolen.

This points to a desire to make a keris with more than just 'Normal' properties, and since keris is so charged with 'spiritual' energy the meteorite would be included in the mix to strengthen those qualities, rather than improving the quality of the steel to make a better weapon.

In ancient Mexico, weapons were left where a 'spirit' could touch them and make them more powerful.Chaka Zulu's first Assegai, a weapon that was instrumental in his view of military strategy, in that it was for tactically advanced hand-to-hand combat rather that the relatively formalized throwing spear used in "Throw and dodge" formalized fighting, was tempered with hyena and lion intestines by Isangoma, his spiritual advisor. There are many ways that weapons can be 'charged' in various parts of the world, and because a weapon is concerned with life and death it's often respected as more than a 'tool'. Weapons have been personalized ("Ol' Betsy", Ironsides") and rightly. If a weapon preserved your life, or took another's life in the process, it became more than 'just a friend'.

Gosh, I hope that I didn't step on anyone's toes!

[MABAGANI]

Ah...written words are like double edged swords, we are communicating and gathering minds but it won't replace face to face interaction where we'd less likely misinterpret each other if we took the time to talk. In a forum or learning session someone has to ask the questions whether they be innocent or not or there wouldn't be a forum...in a tapestry of all knowledge we'd all each possess less then a shred of a thread of a fiber of dust...lolz humor, patience and humility my friends
On that note...I like this thread, yet another one on the volatile keris. I would think on a spiritual level knowing even just a shard or speck of metorite dust used in a personal keris would be sufficient enough for some, without getting too scientific into the exact content, although the analysis is interesting.

[nechesh]

I would think on a spiritual level knowing even just a shard or speck of metorite dust used in a personal keris would be sufficient enough for some, without getting too scientific into the exact content, although the analysis is interesting.

Indeed, i would agree, sort of a homeopathic dose, yet KNOWING that for sure is near impossible. BELIEVING it on the other hand is just a matter of faith, and it is in BELIEF, not necessarily REALITY, that magick works (and i do mean works ;) ). All real magick takes place within and is manifested without, the material object we use are merely tools for focus, so whether that meteorite is "really" in that keris matters little in the end. :)
On that note, i believe perhaps ALL of my keris might have just a little bit of metorite in them.... ;) :D

[Pusaka]

There are those in the Silat community who would argue that it’s more than just belief but that there is a quality a meteorite pamor keris has which others don’t have. Perhaps there are some Silat practitioners here that would like to talk about this, or not :)

[purwacarita]

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me? :) It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

[purwacarita]

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri Handayani :)

[nechesh]

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me? :) It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.


No Purwacarita, i am afraid that i have not recieved any PMs from you. Please try again. :)

[Pusaka]

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

Carbon is not an electrical insulator; actually it’s a very good electrical conductor. If you put two metal plates with a piece of carbon between them you will find that it wont make a capacitor but that the whole thing will just short the circuit. I know a little about Electronics and Engineering :D

[Pusaka]

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

[nechesh]

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.


In a word Pusaka, NO, i don't think that is possible. :)
Sellers will tell you many stories in order to sell their wares. Caveat Emptor! ;)

[Jeff Pringle]

I have made knives with 50% meteorite, and 100% is certainly doable, but the blade would not hold a very good edge. 70% should look very silver when freshly etched.
Sellers will tell you many stories in order to sell their wares. Caveat Emptor!

Very true! 70% bandsaw blade (or other hi-N steel) would look the same as 70% meteorite.

On the meta-meteorite side of things, the Earth is made up of recycled meteorites, i.e. the entire solar system is made up of the same original dust cloud.
But the parts of the dust cloud that have been in cold storage for 4.56 billion years (meteorites) are pretty cool.

[Pusaka]

I have made knives with 50% meteorite, and 100% is certainly doable, but the blade would not hold a very good edge. 70% should look very silver when freshly etched.

Yes it did, the pamor was very silvery/white

[nechesh]

I believe pure nickel as a pamor will also look very silvery and white.
Jeff, correct me if i am wrong, but you seem to be speaking from a modern custom knife making perspective. I certainly do believe that higher percentage meteoric blades are possible to construct, but do you really think this is happening in the keris world?

[Mark]

Purwacarita, Necesh, will you drop it, please? Consider yourselves warned.

Feel free to continue the substance of the discussion, and feel free to continue your personal discussions via PM and e-mail. However, leave out the side comments in your forum posts.

[Jeff Pringle]

Jeff, correct me if i am wrong, but you seem to be speaking from a modern custom knife making perspective. I certainly do believe that higher percentage meteoric blades are possible to construct, but do you really think this is happening in the keris world?
You are correct, I am speaking from a 'custom knife' perspective. However, my methods are rather primitive/'historically informed' shall we say - I'm not using alot of modern improvements to help me. So all I'm saying is, it is possible to get quite a bit of meteorite into a blade, and it's doable with traditional forging methods.
I am definitely NOT well enough informed to say if this is happening in the keris world.
The difficulty of working the material and the romance/coolness factor of meteoric material would lead me to believe that meteorite content would tend to get exagerated and/or invented in most cases, but it also leads me to hope that there are a few traditionally-minded smiths out there working it, too.

[Rick]

I know of at least one . ;)
His work is usually never for sale . :(

[purwacarita]

Hi Pusaka, I appreciate your reason back up your statement. Whether C is a good eletrical conductor or not... :):) ( deep breath taken ) depends on its instrinsic impedance character towards applied voltage which before the avalanche voltage, the current will be very small and thus considered electrical resistor, but it will be a conductor after avalanche voltage. I saw an interesting scientific show that C was cooled downto 4 deg. Celcius by liquid Nitrogen, it becomed superconductor and resisted surrounding electromagnetic field. It was explained by the expo participants while I saw a floating black Carbon pill rotating above a magnet full of white mist from the Nitrogen. Electrical engineering is not my area and I don't know whether the floating C is pure or not, but above is my back up reason to stay put to say C in keris is insulator because of room temperature ( deep breath taken again ) until more convicing explanations :rolleyes: fit my logic. Yet it is hard to connect the mysterious yoni energy with scientific logics. :)

Hi nechesh, I have nothing against you & didn't send you any PMs. I would have if I had chips on my shoulders. When I bring forth weaknesses in my own community, I never mean to discredit nor to humiliate my own people, but it is the fact which should be admitted before it can be dealt. You know how it feels yourself when people choose to comment about your self rather than your quote. Please understand to comment on my quote rather than my self before count reach 10, you heard the modre ogre. :)

I can say idealism and I want to consistently live by it, and thus because of that I need to say I'm sorry I've stepped on your toes. :)

Hi Rick. When really it reaches 10, please feel free to delete this post or omit passage you deem necessary. I'll understand that you'd do what you have to do, and so do I. I hope this post clear up the fog.


~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri handayani. :)

[Andrew]

Hi Pusaka, I appreciate your reason back up your statement. Whether C is a good eletrical conductor or not... :):) ( deep breath taken ) depends on its instrinsic impedance character towards applied voltage which before the avalanche voltage, the current will be very small and thus considered electrical resistor, but it will be a conductor after avalanche voltage. I saw an interesting scientific show that C was cooled downto 4 deg. Celcius by liquid Nitrogen, it becomed superconductor and resisted surrounding electromagnetic field. It was explained by the expo participants while I saw a floating black Carbon pill rotating above a magnet full of white mist from the Nitrogen. Electrical engineering is not my area and I don't know whether the floating C is pure or not, but above is my back up reason to stay put to say C in keris is insulator because of room temperature ( deep breath taken again ) until more convicing explanations :rolleyes: fit my logic. Yet it is hard to connect the mysterious yoni energy with scientific logics. :)

Hi nechesh, I have nothing against you & didn't send you any PMs. I would have if I had chips on my shoulders. When I bring forth weaknesses in my own community, I never mean to discredit nor to humiliate my own people, but it is the fact which should be admitted before it can be dealt. You know how it feels yourself when people choose to comment about your self rather than your quote. Please understand to comment on my quote rather than my self before count reach 10, you heard the modre ogre. :)

I can say idealism and I want to consistently live by it, and thus because of that I need to say I'm sorry I've stepped on your toes. :)

Hi Rick. When really it reaches 10, please feel free to delete this post or omit passage you deem necessary. I'll understand that you'd do what you have to do, and so do I. I hope this post clear up the fog.


~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri handayani. :)

Here's the thing: I honestly have no idea what's going on here. It appears there is some sub-text or another, private conversation going on which casual observers like myself are not privy to.

If so, that's fine. Please keep it private. In other words, stop making cryptic comments on this public board. That goes for everyone, not just Purwacarita.

[Rick]

Well said Andrew .

I had no problems with Purwa's first paragraph ; but the second , personal part does not fit Mark's demand to "drop it" .

Everyone ; speak plainly , in English with no innuendo please .

[Jeff Pringle]

One more thought on e.t. vs. terrestrial material; Meteorites contain more Iridium than earth materials, and you could probably do a spectrographic analysis to detect that material without doing any more damage to the blade than a restoration cleaning.
These days, of course, store-bought Iridium could be incorporated into a blade, but it would probably be as much expense & trouble as using real meteorite and not give you the right trace amount, so I don't see deliberate fakers going down that road.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

Hi Pusaka,
Please remember, the 12 kg. I said are considered as "raw iron". After 'refining process', (wasuh, 'to wash'), that is, to weld iron bar onto itself back and forth, the 'cleaned' iron amount would only as many as 5 kg. or so. The 12 kg are the raw iron materials needed to make what traditionally called 'Tangguh Sedayu', which is believed to have approx. 4096 pamor layers, which is by many experts here in Java, considered as the most-layered keris ever made in Java. Other tangguh may need iron less. Please also remember, all of this information, as I recall, came from Empu Djeno, which may have done some 'research' or experiment on this subject. I believe his father, Supowinangun, did not leave any note, because unfortunatelly, according to Empu Jeno himself, his father was illiterate. There is no exact amount on the materials used in keris making here in Java, everything judged by experience.

I have not read any old and 'credible' traditional notes/script/book about keris which explain the keris making process, and thus, we may only rely on the works of Westerner likes Gronnemen, Jasper&Pirngadie or Garret Solyom. In fact, traditional book likes Serat Centhini, as I recall, didn't write about meteorite as pamor material, while it warn about the 'danger' of 'unproper' pamor pattern. But other traditional books write a lot about the iron and it's 'Tuah' ('magic power'). It also said 'The Steel gives strenght, The Iron gives 'Powers', and The Pamor gives lusters/radiance'. Pamor also called 'Sekaring Braja' (sekar=bunga=flower, braja=weapon/blade). Thus, a keris blade without pamor, which also called 'Pamor Wulung' (wulung=black), exists, but I have never seen a 100% keris blade made of pamor materials. (while never seen is not necessarily didn't exist, I may confidently enough to say, there is no 100% meteorite-made keris blade in Jogjakarta Court's Pusaka Inventories). The reasons behind this 'fact' may be as many as we could imagine, but as Eskimos/Inuit http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col168.html and our friend Jeff Pringle shown us, it is possible to make a blade with 100% meteorite materials. If it is condidered as 'very powerful' by Javanese, some King/Sunan/Sultan in Java may commisioned one too ;) But I didn't said that it has no 'power' at all :D

Yes, pamor material were used to sold in market. Not only the meteorite, but also the 'Luwu' or 'Bugis' pamor. The meteorite ones were said to be more expensive than gold. The Prambanan wasn't an exclusion. While the biggest part was brought to Surakarta court, the small pieces left from it was 'mined' and traded for years. And also, when the Sunan of Surakarta commisioned keris(es), the empus may took the small pieces which was fallen when they cut the meteorite. This practices called 'Ngalap Berkah', and still practised today on virtually any events/ceremonies in both Courts (Surakarta and Jogjakarta).

About 70% meteorite content, well, have the seller do the scientific analysis on the blade? Or was he watching when the empu forged it? :D Personally, I would very happy to pay more on a good keris with 'pamor wulung' (that is, without pamor) than to buy 'roughtly made' keris with meteoric pamor. I suggest, we should 'make sure' about what we really looking for/expecting from a keris, before we have one (or two, or hundreds :D) If we have made our intentions clear, with the help of knowledges, we may found the blade we wish, and may avoid unnecessary disappointment. Just be careful when 'keris fever' come :)

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

[nechesh]

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding everyone that terrestial iron is considered very magickal in keris making, probably as much if not more so than meteorite. In fact, iron is a material that has been considered very powerful and magickal by cultures all around the world for a very long time.
Thanks also for the link to the article on Innuit meteorite blades. Isn't it nice that when Perry discovered the source of their iron that he set out to steal it all. :rolleyes:
I did not mean to imply in my earlier response to Pusaka that 70% or even pure meteoric blades were not possible to forge, just that i doubted deeply that you would find such a make-up in a keris. I have seen such blades before, including this marvelous blade below. It is apparently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, an Alaskan native American. He states that it was one of 2 blades made from a fall near Klukwan many generations ago by a man names Khu ch'eesh. It is 27" long.

[VANDOO]

THE PERCENTAGE OF METEORITE IN A BLADE SHOULD NOT HAVE A LARGE EFFECT ON THE MAGICAL POWER OF THE WEAPON. THE SOURCE OF THE METEORITE WOULD , FOR INSTANCE IN INDONESIA A BLADE WITH SOME OF THE SAME METEORITE USED BY THE ROYAL COURT IN THE OLD DAYS WOULD BE CONSIDERED MORE POWERFUL AND DESIRABLE THAN SPECIMINS FROM AFRICA OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY. A MAGICAL TAILSMAN NEED NOT BE LARGE TO HAVE POWER AS THE POWER IS IN THE BELIEF, FAITH AND RESPECT OF THE OWNER. MAGIC IS NOT LIKE MAKEING 10000 GALLONS OF CHICKEN SOUP WITH ONLY ONE SMALL CHICKEN AND WATER ,MAGIC ISN'T DILUTED AND DOSEN'T LOSE ITS STRENGTH AS LONG IS THE BELIEF IS STILL THERE.

IF I WERE WANTING TO MAKE A LOT OF MAGICAL KERIS I WOULD GATHER UP SOME SCRAP OF OLD KERIS, SEVERAL METEORS AND A LOT OF IRON. I WOULD THEN PICK A TIME OF THE YEAR CONSIDERED TO BE STEEPED IN MAGIC PERHAPS THE SOLSTICE. THEN TAKE THIS TO A SPOT OF POWER ON THE EARTH THE NEAREST ONE I KNOW OF TO ME IS ENCHANTED ROCK IN TEXAS. IT IS THE THIRD LARGEST MONOLITH ON EARTH, AYERS ROCK IS LARGEST, STONE MOUNTAIN NEAR ATLANTA IS SECOND. I WOULD WATCH THE WEATHER FOR A FORECAST OF A GOOD STRONG STORM AND THEN TAKE THE MATERIALS TO THE TOP AND PUT UP A LIGHTNING ROD IN THE CENTER OF IT AND WHEN A BIG STORM CAME THRU IT WOULD RECEIVE MULTIPLE STRIKES. THAT SHOULD CHARGE UP THE METALS IF ANYTHING COULD, AND THEN TAKE IT COMBINE IT AND MAKE AS MANY KERIS BLADES AS POSSIBLE FROM IT OR PERHAPS HAVE A NOTED PANDAY MAKE THEM WITH THE PROPER RITUALS. TO GET LIGHTENING CHARGED IRON WITHOUT THE TROUBBLE USE OLD LIGHTNING RODS IN THE MIX, SOME OFF THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WOULD BE COOL IF THEY ARE EVER REPLACED.

A CHEAP EASY WAY TO MAKE ALL YOUR EDGED WEAPONS METEORITE POWERED, TAKE A METEORITE AND RUB IT GENTLY ALONG THE BLADE TRANSFERING A LITTLE CHARGE AND A FEW MOLECULES TO THE BLADE. :D

I DON'T PERSONALLY BELIEVE IN MYSTICISM OR MAGIC BUT DO UNDERSTAND WHY SOME DO. THERE ARE MANY FORCES AND THINGS HERE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE SENSES TO DETECT AND MUCH MORE THAT WE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND SO I GUESS I AM STILL A BIT TRIBAL. :cool:

[BSMStar]

Gee, have I been asleep at the wheel...

It is possible to determine if there is a meteoritic content with a minimally destructive test. The issue is finding an Electron Microprobe... :D The surface must have a very small area polished (that is the destructiveness of the test). The Electron Microprobe will determine what elements are available. Earth surface rocks do not have the same availability of trace elements as meteorites. The trace elements are the fingerprint used to identify cosmic materials. Therefore, even if there is only one percent meteoritic material in the metal, it is still possible to tell if meteoritic material is present or not.

If there is only a small percentage of meteoritic material in a Keris, then looking at Ni content alone will not be an indicator of cosmic origin since the majority of Ni is not from the meteorite itself. Therefore, short of testing, there really is no way to know if a Keris has meteoritic material in it.

Great article Rick!

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE 3 EXAMPLES OF KNIVES WHERE THE BLADES ARE MADE FROM A SLAB OF NATURAL UNFORGED METEORITE. THEY ARE JUST SHAPED AND POLISHED MECHANICALY. TWO ARE FROM THE GIBEON METEORITE AND PART OF THE OUTER SURFACE OF THE METEORITE WAS LAFT NATURAL UNWORKED OR POLISHED. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS TYPE OF BLADE WOULD HOLD UP, BRITTLE, NOT TAKEING OR HOLDING A GOOD EDGE :shrug:
AT ANY RATE THIS DOES SHOW METEORITES COULD HAVE BEEN WORKED USING PRIMATIVE METHODS SO A OLD UNFORGED METEORITE BLADE IS NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION.

[VANDOO]

I JUST RAN ACROSS A CURRENT ARTICLE ON ONE OF THE DAGGERS FOUND IN KING TUTS TOMB. THEY ARE SAYING THE IRON BLADE IS LIKELY MADE FROM A IRON NICKEL METEORITE. A PICTURE OF THE DAGGER.

[Bob A]

I JUST RAN ACROSS A CURRENT ARTICLE ON ONE OF THE DAGGERS FOUND IN KING TUTS TOMB. THEY ARE SAYING THE IRON BLADE IS LIKELY MADE FROM A IRON NICKEL METEORITE. A PICTURE OF THE DAGGER.


A link to above:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/maps.12664/full

I was surprised that the authors of the paper seemed unaware of the use of meteoric iron in the Indonesian culture.

[David]

A link to above:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/maps.12664/full

I was surprised that the authors of the paper seemed unaware of the use of meteoric iron in the Indonesian culture.
I don't think it is so much a matter of being unaware of meteoric use in Indonesia as much as that their focus is more on the use of that material by ancient peoples.
The remarkable thing about this dagger is that it was created at least a century before the acknowledged start of the Iron Age and many centuries before edged weapons were commonly made of iron.

[Battara]

Just a note: most of the "meteorite" blades claimed by dealers are not meteorite but laminated local steels.