Anglo-Indian army swords

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ok, I admit it at once; I dont know anything about these swords, but on another thread it seems as if Chris, Simon and Jim knows a lot, so this thread is for them and others who want to join.

In the picture you see Major-General (I dont think he had that title then) Richard Hilton (b. 1894 d. 1981 at the age of 87 years) together with a few Indian officers - one seems to be sleeping.
Hilton was an artillry officer and did service for 15 years in India. During WWII he was moved to Europe(?) where he participated in several of the important battels.
He wrote several books, one of them about the Mutiny in 1857.

[sirupate]

I confess to knowing very little Jens, and what little I do know I have gleaned from other esteemed writers and collectors such as yourselves and Robert Wilkinson-Latham.
And also from books like 'Swordsman of the British Empire' and 'Through The Indian Mutiny' etc
I started to collect Indian sabres influenced by the 1796 LCS, but family life put an end to that!
I am in the hope that this thread gets going so I can learn more, all the best Simon
PS great photo Jens

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Jens!
I am looking forward to what we can develop on this thread which will attend to these interesting regimental and hybrid forms, which of course were concurrent to the traditional form discussed on your other thread

I think one instance (which I need to retrieve the source) where British soldiers were amazed at the incredible (though ghastly) effectiveness of the Indian swordsmen with their tulwars. To their astonishment, they soon discovered that these tulwars were often mounted with British blades, mostly from their now obsolete M1796 light cavalry sabres, but honed razor sharp.
I have seen a good number of these, one with an Osborne & Gunby blade, another, actually a M1788 blade in a 'Persian shamshir' style hilt, and of course others.
When British swords contractors began supplying swords to the native cavalry regiments, it is interesting to note that some of these, notably Bourne & Son, continued making the M1796 stirrup hilt type into the late 19th century due to their extreme favor by the Indian troopers .

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.
A good number of these were made by MOLE, Robert Mole * Co. of Birmingham, in around the 1880s and were subcontractors to Wilkinson.
I have seen cast brass hilt of traditional tulwar form also produced by Mole.

In one of the books written by Wilkinson, there are listings of the type or pattern swords preferred by various units, and as mentioned. I need to find it!

Some of the units chose the M1853 pattern cavalry sword, and in a most interesting case, a number of these were produce by a private firm, the Rodwell Co. for one of the railways! Many of the large firms and organizations maintained their own security forces, such as with this case .


These are just opening thoughts recollected to get things going, and I really look forward to additions and observations. Meanwhile, to see if I can find those notes!!!

[mrcjgscott]

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.


Just to get the ball rolling, here is one such catalogue advertisement, dating to 1912. Some of these patterns had very long service lives.

[Tim Simmons]

Something like this.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2955&highlight=Indian+art

[A.alnakkas]

Hello,

I have a sabre with a European influenced hilt but an Indian blade. The hilt has Urdu script on it so could be from Afghanistan or modern day Pakistan. Will share photos soonish :-)))

[sirupate]

Great link Ted,
Scott I think Robert Wilkinson-Latham put similar pictures up on SFI with details if I remember correctly

[Shakethetrees]

Back to a reply I posted a week or so back under the Afghan Pistols thread...

Anyone with sabers or swords attributed to the Poonah Irregular Horse?

I posted a pistol from c. 1850 marked to this unit and would love to see the blades they carried, specifically during the Persia campaign mid 1850's.

Thanks in advance!

[mrcjgscott]

Something like this.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2955&highlight=Indian+art

That's an interesting sword Tim,

I had one of those in my collection. The hilt is certainly based on the 1853 type, and I had a whole subsection of swords with various styles of hilt and blades which looked like they had been chopped together from various pattern designs!

Back to you're sword, I shall have to check my notes to see if a unit attribution was ever made for it. I can't remember if mine was marked or not.

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here is a comparison shot between an early 1796 pattern light cavalry troopers sword (produced 1798) and an Indian Cavalry sword with three bar hilt.

Note the similarity in blade shape. Some of these early 1796 patterns were used in India in there own right by East India Company units, as were old stocks of the 1788 LC sword.
I have also seen original 1796 blades rehilted with the three bar hilt for Indian use.

However, the design proved so popular that 1796 style blades were reproduced under various guises right up until at least the First World War.

Robert Wilkinson Latham and I have shared various correspondence and images over the years. I shall ask him if he will give me permission to share some images from Wilkinson circa 1914, showing these 1796 style blades being finished.

There also similar British made blades, known as "Paget" pattern, which are not as beefy as the 1796 style, but do feature on many Indian cavalry swords with distinctive broad curved cutting blades which remained popular in Indian service, long after the much straighter and only slightly curved cut & thrust type sword became prevalent in UK service.

[sirupate]

Two very nice swords there Scott, that would be great if you can get permission from Robert, he was incredibly helpful to me on the Mk4 kukri, top chap.
PS There is quite a bit about the Indian Cavalry refusing to use the straighter English pattern and holding out for the 1796 LCS type blade in 'Swordsman of the British Empire'

[mrcjgscott]

Two very nice swords there Scott'

Thanks Simon. Given our recent discussions over various fora, I thought you might recall that my name is infact, Chris. I'll happily respond to Mr Scott or mrcjgscott also if you prefer.

PS There is quite a bit about the Indian Cavalry refusing to use the straighter English pattern and holding out for the 1796 LCS type blade in 'Swordsman of the British Empire'

That sounds relevant to our current discussion, perhaps you would transcribe it for us?

[sirupate]

Sorry Chris, you can download a PDF version (which I have on one of my memory sticks), if that doesn't appeal I'll see if I can find it for you, all the best Simon

[CharlesS]

Thank you so much Jens!
I am looking forward to what we can develop on this thread which will attend to these interesting regimental and hybrid forms, which of course were concurrent to the traditional form discussed on your other thread

I think one instance (which I need to retrieve the source) where British soldiers were amazed at the incredible (though ghastly) effectiveness of the Indian swordsmen with their tulwars. To their astonishment, they soon discovered that these tulwars were often mounted with British blades, mostly from their now obsolete M1796 light cavalry sabres, but honed razor sharp.
I have seen a good number of these, one with an Osborne & Gunby blade, another, actually a M1788 blade in a 'Persian shamshir' style hilt, and of course others.
When British swords contractors began supplying swords to the native cavalry regiments, it is interesting to note that some of these, notably Bourne & Son, continued making the M1796 stirrup hilt type into the late 19th century due to their extreme favor by the Indian troopers .

The famed Wilkinson Sword Co. produced many swords for the Indian units, and if I recall they came in varied blade lengths, according to preferences in Bengal and Madras. These were also of another supplanted pattern, the M1822 light cavalry sabre, and in the Wilkinson catalogs known as the 'colonial style', with the three bar 'gothic ' style hilt.
A good number of these were made by MOLE, Robert Mole * Co. of Birmingham, in around the 1880s and were subcontractors to Wilkinson.
I have seen cast brass hilt of traditional tulwar form also produced by Mole.

In one of the books written by Wilkinson, there are listings of the type or pattern swords preferred by various units, and as mentioned. I need to find it!

Some of the units chose the M1853 pattern cavalry sword, and in a most interesting case, a number of these were produce by a private firm, the Rodwell Co. for one of the railways! Many of the large firms and organizations maintained their own security forces, such as with this case .


These are just opening thoughts recollected to get things going, and I really look forward to additions and observations. Meanwhile, to see if I can find those notes!!!


Jim mentioned in this thread a variety of British influences on Indian blades. Below are some examples of Indian blades and one Afghan one that borrow both from British characteristics/styles/makes that blade smiths sought to mimic, combined with hundreds of years old native influences.

[CharlesS]

More pics of the poulowar....note also the military style steel chape.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Charles,
Interesting pictures - I have ligthened the Afghan one so you see the details better.
The Afghan hilt is quite unusual, and the hand guard added later - a very nice one.

[Jim McDougall]

OMG!!! THIS THREAD IS PHENOMENAL!!!
Thank you so much everybody for these amazing entries, and now that I catch my breath, Charles, that is the most amazing example of these British Raj hybrids I have ever seen! the paluoar!!! and then there is the tulwar with British 'gothic' folding guard!!

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

I think this is a textbook example of how to split an interesting item or topic from one thread to another so that the comingling does not defeat discussion on either. Jens, thank you for starting this thread, and everyone for participating with such great entries .

Chris, note on Charles 'paluaor' the fluting and the quadranted cross guard. This is what I was mentioning on the tulwars Jens and I were talking about on the tulwars from these Northwest regions. I would point out that Afghanistan in these times was distinctly considered part of India. Also that these 'paluoars' are actually a form of tulwar, notably associated with Afghan regions and reflecting Deccani and Mughal influences.

Charles, it is fascinating to see this blade, especially designated to MOLE!
It looks like watered steel, and with my incredibly poor understanding of the metallurgy of these blades, how is that possible ? I have seen plain tulwars attributed to MOLE, but nothing like this.

Its great that you guys have been in touch with Mr Wilkinson-Latham, who is probably one of the most phenomenal knowledge bases on these swords and Indian army weaponry. I do hope we might see some of the material mentioned here.

Chris, well noted on those 'Paget' pattern sabres, which indeed were M1822 hilts, and as mentioned, using the distinct heavier M1796 type blades.
I have only one of these (by MOLE) designated to 21C, 21st cavalry (Dalys Horse if I recall) which was in the Frontier Field Force.

Shake the Trees , still looking for data on Poona Horse, and also would like to see a sword of thiers!
I have seen Bombay Cavalry examples, but those are only ones so far that I can recall.

Thank you everyone, this is a great discussion.
and Charles, thank you again so much for that 'centerfold' !!! :) paluoar and the tulwar with British guard.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This old thread should be of interest. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10356&highlight=british+made+tulwars


Regards,
Norman.

[mrcjgscott]

Jim mentioned in this thread a variety of British influences on Indian blades. Below are some examples of Indian blades and one Afghan one that borrow both from British characteristics/styles/makes that blade smiths sought to mimic, combined with hundreds of years old native influences.

Charles, those are some truly jaw dropping pieces! Thank you so much for posting them up here. Simply stunning!


Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

The pleasure is all mine. It is refreshing to be part of a forum which is so willing to freely share information for the greater benefit of all members.

Many thanks for pointing out the subtle stylistic differences on these tulwars. It is so important to note such clues, especially when dipping ones toe in an unfamiliar collecting area.

I have been in touch with Robert, and he has very graciously given me permission to reproduce his photographs and information here, which I shall do in due course. Robert is the very epitome of a true researcher, and his generous approach of freely sharing his discoveries and information is an inspiration to all.

Kind regards,

Chris

[CharlesS]

Jim,

Thanks for all the kind remarks. The MOLE blade is homogenous steel.

[A.alnakkas]

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

[sirupate]

Some fabulous swords and information arising through this fabulous thread

[A.alnakkas]

another one.

[mrcjgscott]

Jonathan Hopkins over on SFI once posted the following image and statement, which shows one of these curved 1796 style blades in use in 1911:

"The sword pictured in the 1911 Cavalry Training Indian Supplement looks remarkably like the P1796, but the blade appears to be narrower and without a hatchet point."

[Jim McDougall]

Back to a reply I posted a week or so back under the Afghan Pistols thread...

Anyone with sabers or swords attributed to the Poonah Irregular Horse?

I posted a pistol from c. 1850 marked to this unit and would love to see the blades they carried, specifically during the Persia campaign mid 1850's.

Thanks in advance!


I spent some time with a few more references.
Staying with the pistol you originally posted on the 'Afghan pistol' thread, the example you have with the lionhead butt cap has an example illustrated in "British Military Pistols 1603-1888", 1978, Robert Brooker, plate 124.
On the lock, the same POONAH IRREGULAR HORSE in same location, in lieu of the EIC rampant lion which is on earlier EIC pistols.
Apparantly Garden & Son, Piccadilly, were one of the largest outfitters to these 'irregular cavalry units' through the 1850s.
In the Brooker reference, there are pistols to the IRREGULAR 2ND CAVALRY and SCINDE IRREGULAR HORSE, both stamped in this same manner and most notably with the same lionhead butt cap.

As the designation POONAH IRREGULAR HORSE was used from 1847 until 1861, it is likely the pistol is of this period, and of course may well have been used during the Persian campaign of 1856-7, in which this unit participated in the charge at Kooshab. As you noted, your pistol was made by Harrington & Scott of Birmingham (who became partners in 1849).

The illustration of a Ratore Rajput of 34th Prince Albert Victors Own POONA HORSE was a watercolor by Maj. A C Lovett, CBE, in 1910 and appears in "The Armies of India" by Lt. Gen. Sir George MacMunn, 1911 (repr1984).
These illustrations are held by the National Army Museum.

The book "The Indian Army" by Boris Mollo, 1981, has an illustration of Col. Charles Swanston, Poona Irregular Horse c.1818 (p.42) by an unknown artist. The figure is standing next to a horse, and has a pistol in sash and apparently a mameluke type officers sabre There is no other detail in text as far as I could find.

As far as swords used by this regiment in the Persian campaigns, since the Paget pattern swords were not around until 1860s, it might be presumed that East India Company swords or outfitted officers type swords might have been in use. The 'Company' had ordered as many as 10,000 of the 1796 type light cavalry sabres in the 1790s. According to David Harding, no EIC markings were ever on swords (I do know earlier they were on bayonets).

Though after the 1857 mutiny, the EIC was effectively ceased, it seems possible some regular British military patterns might have been in use, but I have not yet found more on that.

At this point it is far more likely to find examples or data on the weapons for officers of this unit than the troopers. It is interesting that the Garden & Co. lionhead butt caps seem peculiar to that firm, and supplying these 'irregular' units. The term is with regard to the fact they these units were usually 'sillidar' (troopers supply own horses) and usually had just a few officers controlling the unit. The squadrons (risallahs) were as many as ten with up about 500 men in each.

[VANDOO]

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING AND A FIELD I KNOW VERY LITTLE OF SO LOTS TO LEARN. :) I SEE LOTS OF METALS ON THE INDIA TROOPS SO THEY MUST BE WARRIORS OF NOTE AS METALS WERE NOT LIGHTLY GIVEN IN THOSE TIMES. PERHAPS IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO LEARN ACTIONS WHERE EARNED AS WELL AS THEIR IDENTITY'S FROM A CLOSE UP PICTURE BY ONE FAMILIAR WITH INDIA AND METALS.

[mrcjgscott]

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Hello A.alnakkas,

Many thanks for posting these examples. The first one you show looks very similar to some Imperial Russian swords I have seen. Does it carry and markings to the blade?

I have two similar to the second sword you show, but both with different crests to the grip. I presume they are for different Indian states. I shall take some photographs of my examples for comparison.

[mrcjgscott]

The following images are reproduced here by the kind permission of Robert Wilkinson Latham. Naturally all copyright belongs to Robert, and they are not to be reproduced without his permission.

The first images shows India Office "tulwar" blades and 1907 pattern bayonets being finished at Wilkinson's factory in Acton in 1915.

The second shows an Apprentice handing three bar hilts to a fitter, working on the bending and shaping machine in 1916.

The third shows a pattern photograph of the hilt of a P08 Indian cavalry troopers sword.

The fourth images shows pattern drawings for a three bar cavalry sword circa 1914.
Robert notes "I am sure that the so called Bengal, Paget etc patterns referred to blade type and hilts were different depending on the regiment, there being a variety of known but mainly unidentified hilt types. The most common is of course the 3 bar version. (When it comes to the maharaja's forces, this three bar hilt was often fitted with a medallion on the hilt for whatever state and there are of course regular cavalry variations.!!!!

Eventually the 3 bar hilt dominated circa 1914 when the India Store Depot produced a full size drawings (Ref 9470) and specification for the 3 bar hilted sword (Pattern 6480) which was designated Sword Tulwar Cavalry."

The final image shows a hilt detail of an Indian Cavalry sword. This type of walnut grip is peculiar to swords made for Indian service and others of the type have been associated with private purchase officers swords of the period.

Kind regards,

Chris

[A.alnakkas]

Hello A.alnakkas,

Many thanks for posting these examples. The first one you show looks very similar to some Imperial Russian swords I have seen. Does it carry and markings to the blade?

I have two similar to the second sword you show, but both with different crests to the grip. I presume they are for different Indian states. I shall take some photographs of my examples for comparison.

hmmm, although the design is Russian I think its Persian. Qajar used Russian designed sabres as far as I know. It also had the Qajar crown on the hilt. Will annoy my friend and ask him to snap photos of it :-)

[mrcjgscott]

hmmm, although the design is Russian I think its Persian. Qajar used Russian designed sabres as far as I know. It also had the Qajar crown on the hilt. Will annoy my friend and ask him to snap photos of it :-)

Ahhh I see, that is certainly a new one on me, every day is a school day!

Further images would certainly be most enlightening, thank you!

[mrcjgscott]

Here are some images of the 1796 style officers sword I mentioned to Jim on the tulwar thread. This is one of my personal favourites, and it survived the cull of my collection, and several tempting offers from fellow enthusiasts!

Apologies for the photo quality, these are around 10 years old!

[Shakethetrees]

Great looking saber!

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

[sirupate]

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

[mrcjgscott]

It appears to have a bone grip, right?

I believe so Shakethetrees, although I could not tell you from which animal it came.

[mrcjgscott]

Lovely sword Chris, but would this be classified as a 1796 type? I'd be very interested to hear what the other experts opinions are.

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Simon.

I actually said "1796 style" (not that it really matters)

The hilt is certainly based on that design, possibly for an officer of the East India Company.

I am always happy to hear other opinions.



Chris, this is a beautiful sword, and what appears to be a Solingen blade, probably end of 18th to c. 1815. The M1796 light cavalry stirrup hilts were among the most widely varied of the British 'regulation' patterns. This was due to this of course being the first 'officially' recognized pattern date, and at this time there were a good number of makers all responding to orders from officers, often with their own design and innovations.

I recall when I first collected British cavalry patterns many years ago, one challenging field was variations of the M1796 lt cavalry sabre for officers. The troopers swords were pretty standard, but officers had many nuanced differences in the backstrap, langets, and clearly the grips....often there were variations in blades as well.

It seems I have seen this langet style somewhere, and it very well may have bee an EIC selection. If I can find some of the data I will add it here, there was some very obscure and brief articles back in the 70s it seems.
It is unfortunate that EIC swords were never marked, nor it seems usually inscribed (none I have seen personally at least).

I agree the grip does seem bone but hard to say, these officers had access to good ivory work in the EIC regions so that must be considered.

[mrcjgscott]

Hello Jim,

Many thanks indeed for chiming in on this one.

I have always suspected, as have most of the people who have handled this particular sword, that the blade was of Indian manufacture.

Whilst the blade itself is sound and still holding a wicked edge, the finish, especially around the fullers, isn't really up to the standard I have come to expect from a Solingen product of that era.

Is there any particular indication that makes you think it is Solingen rather than Indian? Obviously their output during this period was prodigious (one only has to consider the amount of "J.J. Runkell" examples encountered) but I had no idea that they might be importing blades into India also.

It is always good to revaluate things from time to time, especially those things which you have had so long that you have rather written them off as "knowing it all"! So I thank you for making me think twice about this old friend of mine.

As you say, the dearth of markings on early EIC blades is something of a handicap, and does leave interpretation up to combinations of other features. But perhaps that is also part of the fun?

I shall take some better images of the hilt, then perhaps, we might be able to tie that down slightly better!

All the best,

Chris

[sirupate]

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

[sirupate]

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

[kronckew]

ref: post 31 above.

now i know what my affy short sword with the solingen trade blade looked like before it was captured and turned into a shorty. :)

[mrcjgscott]

That kind of fullering/groves reminded me of one of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559

That is a very impressive piece. I presume that it is held in Nepal?

This is quite a good little PDF on Officers 1796 LCS

Although I cannot see the name of the articles author, it would appear to be written by Richard Dellar?

Richard is probably the leading scholar working on British cavalry swords at the moment. I can thoroughly recommend his latest book:

“The British Cavalry Sword 1788 – 1912, Some New Perspectives”

Kind regards,

Chris

[sirupate]

Hi Chris, it is in the National Museum, the curator (Bhess) took me around, thanks for the heads up on the book, I'll definitely give it a shout, all the best Simon

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Chris,
My note of that blade being Solingen was very much 'off the cuff' as these triple fuller type types are characteristic of the 'trade' blades that were produced there from 18th century and well through the 19th (much like the one Kronckew has shown in the example he entered here). However, you are quite right, the blade could well be an Indian copy.
It does not seem to me that the Indian smiths were making these kinds of copied blades quite as early as this type sword as suggested by the hilt.

Actually Solingen blades were quite regularly into India, particularly in the western regions via Malabar and Mahrattas, and of course via many of the EIC key regions and presidencies via the flow of these into England. In England, the constant influx of German blades remained a bit of a standard.

Thank you for noting the superb work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912", in my opinion one of the most significant works on regulation cavalry swords to date. It delves into the history of many of these well known forms through research and study including those who actually used them, rather the exact way I deeply enjoy studying these weapons whenever possible.

Simon thank you for adding the PDF and example of the tulwar with profoundly heavy blade, one we often regard as the much debated 'tegha'.

Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!!
Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me.
We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms.

I still have not found the examples of these type langets, nor the general look of that M1796 light cav stirrup hilt. I feel pretty confident that its form corresponds to those which might have been selected by EIC officers though. It seems to resemble some of those I recall which were to particular cavalry regiments, remembering that officers swords were private purchase just as were EIC types.

All best,
Jim

[sirupate]

Thanks for the added info Jim, what does 'tegha' mean and refer to? all the best Simon

[sirupate]

Here is the rest of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559, the Tulwar is on the top left

[Jim McDougall]

The word 'tegha' seems to be another of the dialectic Indian terms used for a sword type, in this case, I believe (by recollection) to refer to a very heavy blade and slightly curved sword. I think it is noted in "The Indian Sword" (Rawson, 1967) as well as Pant (Lahore, 1980, "Indian Arms andArmour")
Thank you for the images of this grouping, impressive!
Refresh my memory please on Drabya Shah, where was he situated?

[sirupate]

Hi Jim, thanks for the info on Tegha, Drabya Shah was the first of the Shah's of Gorkha in Nepal, when Drabya Shah killed Khadka Raja in personnel combat, there is a nick in the beam of ceiling from Drabya Shah's killing cut on Khadka Raja's head which split it in two in the Palace in Gorkha, which Lt. Col. Cross was able to see, as he was mistaken for a Brahmin and allowed in.
It is quite a climb just over 3000 feet, which I did in 2000, but worth it for the view alone, and good prep for the trekking!

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Simon, I thought the name was familiar from some of the info John Powell used to share, seems like eons ago.

[Sancar]

This is a very interesting and informative topic. Thank you all :)

While reading earlier posts, this picture from 1912 Wilkinson catalogue, posted by mrcjgscott, cought my attention. The second saber from the left is very different from all the rest, with an unusual hilt for a British-made and western influenced military sword; yet it does not look like a tulwar either. It looks almost like an Ethiopian gurade. My question is simply what is this, why is it different and are there any surviving examples? Is it a British attempt to (poorly)imitate a tulwar hilt or something else? :confused:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=139819&stc=1

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent observation Sancar!
Actually that is indeed an Ethiopian shotel with the European type blade, if I am correct on terminology. I have understood the 'gurade' as typically the stirrup hilt military style sabres for Ethiopia (usually German made).
In the early 20th century, Wilkinson Sword Co. had been supplying then Abyssinia with swords for a time, and these catalogs listed their wares.

Other similar pages illustrate Ethiopian blade variations for the traditional rhino horn 'shotel' which included both the deeply curved sickle type as well as the shallow curve military style. Both were used into the 1930s.

It is curious how this became mixed in with the Indian grouping, but in these times it does not seem uncommon for such interpolation in many references and in this case catalogs.

I once had a pair of British made tulwars (by Mole, contracted to Wilkinson) which had cast brass Indo-Persian hilts. These were quite true to form, and the British were quite attuned to such details. Native cavalry during the Raj were permitted to choose their favored weapons it would seem, as there are variations by regiment and some had traditional tulwars. Since the term tulwar was of course a general term for sword, and equally used to refer to the European style sabres in these regiments, it is unclear exactly what the actual form was.

[Jens Nordlunde]

In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[sirupate]

Great observation Sancar, and thanks for the clarification Jim, I didn't realise Mole was contracted to Wilkinson for some swords.

[sirupate]

What a beauty Jens
In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur".
A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached).
In the text to the plate Hendley writes.
"1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs.
Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh."

[mrcjgscott]

Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!!
Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me.
We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms.

All best,
Jim


Thank you for the clarification on the importation of German blades into India Jim. It seems NOTHING should be taken for granted with arms and armour!

As you say, it is always refreshing when an old piece in your collection can yield new information, even when you think all the threads have been unravelled...

I know researchers who do occasionally make grandiose statements about new discoveries, only to find, when digging a little deeper, that such proclamations are not all they are cracked up to be.

The field of study doesn't matter, I am sure such things happen across the spectrum when undertaking research. We must stick to the facts, and judge each case on its own merits. As you say, there is always more information to be gleaned.


I didn't realise Mole was contracted to Wilkinson for some swords.

Wilkinson and Mole had a long history of cooperation, Mole running a very close second to Wilkinson until Wilkinson finally bought them out in 1920.

[mrcjgscott]

Many thanks for posting that example Jens. I am very much looking forward to Elgood's forthcoming work.

Here are two more Indian Infantry swords with British influenced hilts, similar to the one posted by A.alnakkas earlier in the thread.

Both have subtle differences, but both carry an European style coat of arms in the central guard cartouche. I presume typical of the many Indian states, although I have no idea to which these swords belonged.

Note the horn grip and tulwar style scabbard on the bottom example.

[RSWORD]

this one was in my collection. Blade and scabbard are wootz but dont think its Indian?

Lofty,

Yours is Persian and early 20th century.

[Silver John]

Hi Chris,

I don't know if it'll be any help identifying where the sword came from, but I believe the six characters on the guard in the top picture are; Ri Ya S Ta Ha Ta(long a).

I'm not sure on the fifth character 'Ha', as it's a little blurred, but the others are a pretty good match to my eye.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Chris,
I think I see two numbers on your hilt, the number '1' in the middle of the text, and '8' at the end of the text, but what the text inbetween says I don't know.

[mrcjgscott]

Chris,
I think I see two numbers on your hilt, the number '1' in the middle of the text, and '8' at the end of the text, but what the text inbetween says I don't know.

Thank you Jens,

That is certainly more than I knew when I woke up this morning! I would imagine they are either a unit designation or possibly a rack number (perhaps both)

Kind regards,

Chris

[Silver John]

Hi Chris & Jens,

I thought I'd posted up a crude translation last night, but it's either still waiting for a Mods approval or it's been lost in the ether, so I'll try again.

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

[sirupate]

Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson

[Silver John]

You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens

Very sorry if my last post came across as rude Jens, re-reading it I should have phrased it differently and started the post with "I think..." I am very new to these translations and still have a great deal to learn!

I also thought thought another possible translation of the 5th character (from the first pic) could be Dhaa?

[mrcjgscott]

I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa.

Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred.

On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise)

Hi Silver John,

Many thanks for posting these up, most interesting.I shall give some thought to what your translation might signify.

One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck.

I envy your ability with deciphering the characters, I have tried many times to get my head around it, but to no avail. Your efforts are much appreciated!

Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson

Thank you Simon,

Some of them took a long time to track down.

RWL wrote a history of Wilkinson a few years back, I can try and find the details if it might be of interest?

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here are examples of the sword carried by the 33rd Cavalry.

The officers sword utilizes the 1821 "Honeysuckle" style guard, and the lower sword, for troopers, is based upon the 1908 cavalry sword.

If memory serves, the troopers sword was produced by B. Boota Singh and Son, of Rawalpindi. They obviously held several Indian Government contracts, as they also produced high quality kukri during WW1.

[mrcjgscott]

Another shot, alongside a standard British 1908.

[sirupate]

If you could dig up the details Chris, that would be great

[Silver John]

One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck.

That would be interesting to see.

I do not have enough knowledge on the topic to say with any confidence, but I believe the inscription is Marathi.

When I'm attempting these translations, I write down what I think it says and then type that into a program that converts roman alphabet into a range of Indian sub continent scripts. If I get a match, I know I'm getting better! The first character, Ri, only looks like that when I select the Marathi option. It is different in Hindi, still devanagari script, just a different way of putting it together. All the other characters remain the same however.

Perhaps this is a hint that it came from Maharashtra state? Or somewhere nearby?

[mrcjgscott]

"Mr Wilkinson of Pall Mall", by Robert Wilkinson Latham. Volume One 1772-1899, and Volume Two 1900-1972.

[Silver John]

Sorry to keep clogging this thread with more waffle, if I wasn't still in modded status I'd have tried to edit it all into one post.

Just discovered that Riyasata means something like Principality. So the last two characters are the key. If you can get a clearer pic it might be possible to establish which Principality it came from.

[mrcjgscott]

Silver John that is brilliant work, many thanks indeed!

I will give the thing a good once over to clean the gunk out, and get back to you with better images.

Kind regards,

Chris

[Jens Nordlunde]

Silver John,
No problem at all - I am glad you corrected me, that is what the forum is for - or am I mistaken :-).
Jens

[mrcjgscott]

Hi Silver John,

I owe you an apology I think: I keep forgetting to check up the thread for your moderated posts to appear, therefore I have missed some of your posts. I apologise if it seemed as though I was ignoring your contribution, it is indeed much appreciated!

Attached are some additional images of the crest. The quality is slightly dubious, due mostly to the rollercoaster which is British summertime!

I am happy to try again if they are not up to snuff!

Kind regards,

Chris

[Silver John]

Hi Silver John,

I owe you an apology I think

Not at all Chris! I just hope I'm not boring everyone to tears, or enraging those whose language I'm butchering.

Thanks for the clearer pictures. To me it looks like the fifth character is Tha + either I or O. Because of the way the bar at the top is squashed it's very hard for me to tell which it's supposed to be. It could be something else entirely though. The character for the aspirated retroflex Dha looks roughly similar, could be a poor version of that?

My best guess is Ri Ya Sa Ta Thi/Tho Ta. No Idea what that last bit could mean though!

I've attached some images, so you can decide for yourself.

[mrcjgscott]

This example was carried by Jacobs Horse.

It was manufactured by Wilkinson sword. One side was signed with their name in English, the other in Hindi. (Advertising is advertising!)

Note the similarities to the hilt of the British 1853 pattern.

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

This sword was part of an India Office order placed with Robert Mole for 500 swords and 500 scabbards of Bengal Native Cavalry pattern dated 3rd August 1886. Sword priced at 10/6d each and scabbards at 8/3d.

The specification quotes: "The Hilt to be best cast malleable iron. the medallion to be stamped and pierced and neatly fitted to the hilt."

Almost certainly produced for Viceroy Commissioned Officers with the crown and Imperial cypher.

[mrcjgscott]

Not at all Chris! I just hope I'm not boring everyone to tears, or enraging those whose language I'm butchering.

Thanks for the clearer pictures. To me it looks like the fifth character is Tha + either I or O. Because of the way the bar at the top is squashed it's very hard for me to tell which it's supposed to be. It could be something else entirely though. The character for the aspirated retroflex Dha looks roughly similar, could be a poor version of that?

My best guess is Ri Ya Sa Ta Thi/Tho Ta. No Idea what that last bit could mean though!

I've attached some images, so you can decide for yourself.

Further apologies SilverJohn,

Once again I completely missed this post of yours!

Many thanks indeed for taking the time to look into this conundrum. I don't have any gut reaction as to what it might mean, but I shall certainly give it some more thought.

Once again, your research is much appreciated!

Kind regards,

Chris

[mrcjgscott]

Here are a few pictures of an Indian Cavalry Sword made by Wilkinson, one of the few pieces I was not able to nail down a solid provenance for.

No orders seemed to remain extant for such pieces in the Wilkinson archive, and it was proposed that the sword may have indeed been a one off or trial piece.

It now resides with the Royal Armouries in Leeds.

[mrcjgscott]

Here are a few more shots, showing the typical double ring top mount found on these 1821 hilted, 1796 blades pieces.

Interestingly the scabbard has been "tarted up" post service with the addition of a bright velvet cover, so these blades may have been carried a long time after official service ended.

Do let me know if you are getting bored of these images, and I will stop!!

[scinde]

OMG!!! THIS THREAD IS PHENOMENAL!!!
Thank you so much everybody for these amazing entries, and now that I catch my breath, Charles, that is the most amazing example of these British Raj hybrids I have ever seen! the paluoar!!! and then there is the tulwar with British 'gothic' folding guard!!

Chris, I cannot thank you enough for being the motivator in creating this thread as you have well initiated more activity in the study of the Indian tulwar concurrently on its own thread.

I think this is a textbook example of how to split an interesting item or topic from one thread to another so that the comingling does not defeat discussion on either. Jens, thank you for starting this thread, and everyone for participating with such great entries .

Chris, note on Charles 'paluaor' the fluting and the quadranted cross guard. This is what I was mentioning on the tulwars Jens and I were talking about on the tulwars from these Northwest regions. I would point out that Afghanistan in these times was distinctly considered part of India. Also that these 'paluoars' are actually a form of tulwar, notably associated with Afghan regions and reflecting Deccani and Mughal influences.

Charles, it is fascinating to see this blade, especially designated to MOLE!
It looks like watered steel, and with my incredibly poor understanding of the metallurgy of these blades, how is that possible ? I have seen plain tulwars attributed to MOLE, but nothing like this.

Its great that you guys have been in touch with Mr Wilkinson-Latham, who is probably one of the most phenomenal knowledge bases on these swords and Indian army weaponry. I do hope we might see some of the material mentioned here.

Chris, well noted on those 'Paget' pattern sabres, which indeed were M1822 hilts, and as mentioned, using the distinct heavier M1796 type blades.
I have only one of these (by MOLE) designated to 21C, 21st cavalry (Dalys Horse if I recall) which was in the Frontier Field Force.

Shake the Trees , still looking for data on Poona Horse, and also would like to see a sword of thiers!
I have seen Bombay Cavalry examples, but those are only ones so far that I can recall.

Thank you everyone, this is a great discussion.
and Charles, thank you again so much for that 'centerfold' !!! :) paluoar and the tulwar with British guard.

Hi Jim,

Just new to this forum and mainly interested in EIC and Indian Army, and wonder if I can ask specifically how your 21st Cavalry sword is identified. Would it be with the numerals 21 encircled with a large capital "C"?; and could you also mention the length of the blade, width at ricasso, and whether or not the blade is swamped and broadens before the point.

Gordon

[ariel]

OK, here is mine: 1796 handle, Indian Muslim blade with " No brave like Ali ..etc", pattern welded, dated 1165 ( 1751-2 Gregorian)

[Helleri]

What's up with the hinged guard on post #14 ?

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

[drac2k]

Here are what I believe to be 2 more Indian swords; the one with the modified guard, I think was with the Indian Mountain division.That sword is also marked on the guard " O.F.A. 20," and on top of the scabbard R.11.00 & 42 R A .

[Rumpel]

drac2k,

That looks like the coat of arms for Bharatpur State. See: http://www.flagheritagefoundation.org/pdfs/emblems-of-the-indian-states.pdf

[drac2k]

Thank you for the information and that very informative link !

[scinde]

Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!!
Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj.

The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point .
If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine.
The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy.

The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte.

The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in
"Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8).

The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size.

The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more.

Welcome to our forum!!!


Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade.


All best regards
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for response and welcome. The marking on back edge of blade near hilt is fairly typical for Mole and others, some Wilkinson blades marked on ricasso; whereas from my observations, regimental markings are generally found on the hilt, but sometimes on the blade. I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of your blade when convenient and if possible.

I've held a developing interest in EIC and Indian Army for something close to forty years, which primarily included the subjects of uniform, accoutrements, associated bits & pieces and of course swords, now primarily swords.

In relation to European Officers swords, my collection covers mainly cavalry, but also touching on Artillery, Engineers and Infantry. Alongside this I've also maintained a fairly serious interest in troopers swords, and find that (unless point broken and re-ground, which I very much doubt), the blades circa 1860-1900 across Bengal, Madras and Bombay can vary from nominally 30" inches up to 33" as you say, with considerable variation in hilt type.

Interests to do with Cavalry & Irregular Cavalry etc., one regiment in particular the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, as I have the sword that was carried by Captain Forbes when he lead the charge of the 3rd Bombay Cavalry at Kooshab (Persia) in 1857.

Core areas of study which have developed are Scinde Camel Corps, Poona Horse, Scinde Horse and Corps of Guides, Punjab Cavalry, their swords and others.

Regards,

Gordon

[G. Mansfield]

Adding another example that recently came my way. 1796 pattern style blade with 1821 pattern three-bar guard. Unfortunately, no maker markings or dates on the hilt or blade. Looks to have some age and quite robust and heavy. Certainly, a fighter!
Blade Length: 33” (83,9cm)
Hilt & Blade Length: 38 ¾” (98,4cm)

-Geoffrey

[Jim McDougall]

Geoffrey! Thank you for reviving this thread, and so glad you're still at it with the 'swords of the Raj' :) It seems we are a limited bunch as this area of collecting and study is not widely brought up.

What a great example of these 'colonial' sabers (as Wagner, "Cut & Thrust Weapons", 1967 calls them).
It seems that these 'Paget Pattern" #6480 (Wilkinson, but Mole produced many for them) were in 31 1/2" blades for Madras and Bombay forces; while the 33" were deemed for Bengal.

By those facts, very possible this might have been for a Bengal cavalry regiment, thus a good chance for lancers.

My example (by Mole) is marked to 21C, from 1904 called "Daly's Horse" but a unit of Frontier Force. Pretty exciting history of all these cavalry regiments of the Raj.

No idea what the numbers below 21C mean, there were so any number combinations with administrative coding.

[G. Mansfield]

Hi Jim, thank you for the information! I did not know of the designations for differentiating blade lengths and the possible associated with the Bengal forces with the 33” size. Your example is very similar and you’re lucky to have stampings attributed to the 21st calvary, a nice slice of history provenance. I will provide a few links that I have found if anybody is interested in some more information. The first: the Imperial War Museum, second: Australian War Memorial, and third: a brief Youtube video of the history and description of the type.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30001638
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C226996
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=k92PstHFQRM

-Geoffrey