Proposed German Cultural Property Protection Law: likely problem for ethnographic arms and armor collectors

[castellum aquilonis]

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fkultur%2Fkunst-und-architektur%2Farticle143806716%2FDenn-die-Gesetzgeber-wissen-nicht-was-sie-tun.html&edit-text=&act=url

"The stipulations of the amendment of the law on the Protection of Cultural Heritage threaten the collecting of cultural objects by private individuals. This law will effect everybody specialized in traditional collecting fields, such as books, stamps, furniture, ceramics, coins, classic cars and paintings. Retroactively, this new law will impose due diligence guidelines that are impossible to follow even for the most meticulous collector. When it comes to a dispute, the law will require, by reversing the burden of proof, the owner of a “cultural good” with a value of at least 2,500 euros to provide proof as to the item’s provenance for the previous 20 years; this affects “archaeological cultural goods” with a value as low as 100 euros.
This is an unrealistic demand which misrepresents most of the objects that are currently traded on the domestic and the international art market in full accordance with the law as being illegal, and will result in a considerable decline in value of the objects in question.“

Those with an interest in this issue are encouraged to visit the above web site to learn more about it.

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fkultur%2Fkunst-und-architektur%2Farticle143806716%2FDenn-die-Gesetzgeber-wissen-nicht-was-sie-tun.html&edit-text=&act=url

www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns (http://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/fuer-den-erhalt-des-privaten-sammelns)

[Ian]

Castellum aquilonis:

Thank you for bringing this issue to the attention of forum members and others visiting this site.

Ian.

[spiral]

Often with such approaches in the EEC its Germany tomorrow... the rest of Europe next year...

Thanks for the heads up castellum aquilonis!

spiral

[Rick]

An outrage .
"Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men
Some will rob you with a six-gun
And some with a fountain pen ."

Woody Guthrie

[A. G. Maisey]

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.

[castellum aquilonis]

I assume that this is about the total control of personal property, and a few people who had the feeling not having enough attention in their area of politics wanted to get more attention.
Very interesting article above.
I hope they will change or totally drop this insane law.

We have all the laws we need or do not need already.

Most collectors treat their items much better as any museum could do, we also have to remember that.

[spiral]

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

[trenchwarfare]

If one sees a steamroller coming down the street, one does not stand in front of it, but finds a way around it.


Unfortunately, the average citizen (of any country) is like a cartoon character, and will run in front of it, till he trips and falls. Or just lay down, and accept the inevitable.

[Ian]

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.

A fellow kukri collector currently has legal trouble in Europe for importing a few kukris from Australia, including a very old ivory handled kukri,{amogst others.} without the correct cities paperwork...

He bought it assuming it was a bone hilt,.....From bad photos...

The prosecutor's have found a photo over 15 years old & 3 owners apart {All members of this forum...} which described it as ivory on an American forum.

There using that old post as evidence against him...

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Ian, Europe can be very difficult in more ways than, when it comes to sale into Europe of edged weapons.

[Rick]

Items of ivory have disappeared from our local auction house's Japanese, Asian and other auctions .
Before this Spring such items were always listed with the notation that they could not be shipped to California .

[Tim Simmons]

Could this be rather muddled reaction to the criminal trade in artefacts by a somewhat disturbing group that follow a deranged view of a middle Eastern faith.

[spiral]

Fortunately, there are scientific tests that can distinguish bone from ivory, so if it is bone he should have no problem. If it is ivory, can he reasonably be held accountable for an opinion expressed in a remote source that he failed to detect? It would seem that the burden of proof in Europe is that one has to take into account every conceivable source of information, otherwise you are liable.

For this reason I am very reluctant to sell items to folks living in EU.

Ian.


Sadly in this case it is ivory. There are testing a horn handled piece to determine its species though.

After all with Cites the law is broken even it is due to ignorance of the law .{No legal paperwork}

I suspect the kukris, {They seized all 4 of them as in the same parcel.} will not be returned.

There all {IMHO} early 20th century. One has a 22ct. gold scabbard fittings. 2 are silver fittings.

spiral

[drac2k]

Unfortunately these items will probably be incinerated with other cultural treasures.The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?
To our German friends, if you are told by a government official that "to know what is in the law, you have to pass it first," duck and Run !!!!

[Tim Simmons]

The Taliban and Isis destroy historical artifacts as do our "Western," governments;what is the difference in these cases ?

Interesting point of view. However the "Western" judicial vandalism only happens when you export the items. The vandalism is carried out in the attempt to save for the worlds future generations, endangered flora and fauna. I do not think it comperes to the destruction of art to deny the worlds people of their past. I fear this is bit of mission creep from the original topic. :eek:

[ariel]

Under this law, a work of art looted by the Nazis and residing in German hands ( private or public) can no longer be returned to the legal heirs. Having spent 70+ years on the German soil, it will obviously acquire a mystical aura of a German "cultural object" :-(((

Not long ago a similar logic was used to deny claims of legal heirs against a "collection" of a former Nazi, officially responsible for actual confiscation of art objects from the Jews sent to Auschwitz.

Now it will no longer be a "logical legal argument"; it will be an official German law.

[castellum aquilonis]

Interesting article:
http://www.muenzenwoche.de/de/News/4?&id=3566
F. Schlusswort
Den wahren Gesetzeszweck hat Frau Grütters ehrlich geäußert: „in Deutschland den Ankauf des Staates für Antiken und Münzen sowie sonstige Kunstwerke durch Marktbeschränkungen so billig als möglich zu machen.“ Ist dies: „Freiheit statt Sozialismus“?

Closing Remarks
The true purpose of the law Grütters expressed honestly : " To make the purchase of the state for antiquities and coins and other works of art by market restrictions as cheaply as possible in Germany" is this: " Freedom instead of socialism " ?

[silberschatzimsee]

yes its purposely done to get their hands onto the "Volkseigentum" (citizen-belongings)

sooner or later also our governemenr will follow. :mad: