Odd Sword

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Any ideas on this weapon?... Looks like an Ethiopian style. (Readers are pointed to the fact that that the picture of 3 in a group shows the pommel and tang at photo top left. The tang has been lengthened.)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ian]

Ibrahiim:

Could you please provide the full Latin inscription. It is hard to make out the word. Is it "MOIDUM"? That does not make sense to me. Perhaps another letter in front?

Do you think the blade is Western European in origin?

Ian.

[Iain]

I am slightly unsure what is considered 'odd' about this sword. Its a European blade of likely Solingen make.

It is not Ethiopian in anyway.

The hilt appears to be typical for Omani remounts. But I am surprised Ibrahiim hasn't pointed that out? :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I am slightly unsure what is considered 'odd' about this sword. Its a European blade of likely Solingen make.

It is not Ethiopian in anyway.

The hilt appears to be typical for Omani remounts. But I am surprised Ibrahiim hasn't pointed that out? :)


Salaams Iain ..Yes you are partly right since I thought I would let people have a go at this without too much prompting from me.

Its odd because the blade marks are as you say undecipherable with a peculiar W and weird looking D and another D then a 1 then a very odd looking S or 5 .... So it looks like W D D 1 5 or rather 5 1 D D M

The hilt is an extended job. It looks like an Omanified sword particularly with the pommel of a type I am not familiar with in terms of the 6 pointed star decoration.. Thus, odd, from that standpoint.

I would say this was a European export blade which has had the Omani hilt extension and therefor likely to have journeyed along the Africa(Ethiopia) to Sanaa to Muttrah route (though oddly this came in as a photo only so I cant give it the bend test) ...and having ended up in a large private collection.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim:

Could you please provide the full Latin inscription. It is hard to make out the word. Is it "MOIDUM"? That does not make sense to me. Perhaps another letter in front?

Do you think the blade is Western European in origin?

Ian.


Salaams Ian, Latin not my strongpoint however ...It could be a number sequence in Latin? I dont recognise the inscription at all thus my tag that it was odd...in addition to a Pommel decoration I have never seen before.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Kubur]

Salaam,
I think at something like that:
http://www.davidmus.dk/en/collections/islamic/dynasties/mamluks/art/1-1998
Ibrahim & Iain, have a look at this link.
Is it possible to have an European blade, reused by Mamluks then by Omani?
Best,
Kubur

[Iain]

Salaam,
I think at something like that:
http://www.davidmus.dk/en/collections/islamic/dynasties/mamluks/art/1-1998
Ibrahim & Iain, have a look at this link.
Is it possible to have an European blade, reused by Mamluks then by Omani?
Best,
Kubur

The sword you linked to is part of a specific set. That is much earlier than the blade in the sword Ibrahiim presented.

The swords in your link were donated in a number of series to the arsenal in Alexandria. I recommend back issues of the Park Lane Fair publication which feature a number of highly insightful articles on the subject by Clive Thomas and David Oliver.

The blade shown by Ibrahiim has the look more of a 16th or 17th century blade perhaps found on a walloon hilt originally. Those more versed in European blades can hopefully elaborate or correct this impression.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ..Yes you are partly right since I thought I would let people have a go at this without too much prompting from me.

Its odd because the blade marks are as you say undecipherable with a peculiar W and weird looking D and another D then a 1 then a very odd looking S or 5 .... So it looks like W D D 1 5 or rather 5 1 D D M

The hilt is an extended job. It looks like an Omanified sword particularly with the pommel of a type I am not familiar with in terms of the 6 pointed star decoration.. Thus, odd, from that standpoint.

I would say this was a European export blade which has had the Omani hilt extension and therefor likely to have journeyed along the Africa(Ethiopia) to Sanaa to Muttrah route (though oddly this came in as a photo only so I cant give it the bend test) ...and having ended up in a large private collection.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Right, well hopefully Jim or one of the other more European oriented members will have a go at the inscription. There are myriad versions of these, often spelled differently and making it a bit of a challenge at times. In any case the format and the anchor at the top of the inscription correspond to a number of blades I've see in the past that fall into the 16th century. So certainly a nice old blade I think.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
It would appear that someone has at some point attempted to imitate the interlocking triangles and proof slug found on 19thC British blades, presumably to increase the perceived value of the blade.
Regards,
Norman.

[TVV]

Hi,
It would appear that someone has at some point attempted to imitate the interlocking triangles and proof slug found on 19thC British blades, presumably to increase the perceived value of the blade.
Regards,
Norman.

To me it looks like the six-pointed star is on the pommel, and it is a pretty common symbol used throughout the Islamic World.

Regards,
Teodor

[Norman McCormick]

To me it looks like the six-pointed star is on the pommel, and it is a pretty common symbol used throughout the Islamic World.

Regards,
Teodor


Hi Teodor,
My mistake. :o Used to seeing ricasso at the bottom of a photo, jumped in with both feet. :( :)
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Teodor,
My mistake. :o Used to seeing ricasso at the bottom of a photo, jumped in with both feet. :( :)
My Regards,
Norman.


Salaams Norman McCormick ~ I thought the same when I received the pictures ! It took me a while to figure it out as decoration on a pommel... I can't decide how this was achieved as it looks like a Wilkinson which has been hacked about... as I was saying it is quite an odd thing..

I have just posted a note to Early Makers Blade Marks By Jim McDougall on the subject Signs, Ornaments and inscriptions on Swords which is interesting.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Without going through resources in usual lengthy foray, I'd say Iain is pretty much spot on suggesting a European arming sword, probably Walloon or Pappenheimer and probably 17th century.
The shouldered forte and panel with these letters correspond to similar arrangements in Spanish/Italian blades and their Solingen counterparts.

The letters are probably acrostic, and often occur representing various slogans, invocations or mottos so are typically indecipherable. This practice seems to have originated in Italy and was soon copied widely, however there are far earlier blades with such mysterious inscribed letters.

It does seem unusual for one of these blades to end up in this particular Omani context, they are more often likely to turn up in kaskara in the rather limited cases that they do appear. It would be anyone's guess as to how this blade came into what appears to be a 'Mutrah' setting, but I think Ibrahiims suggestion of entry into the 'Red Sea' network probable. The Bedouin across Yemeni regions often stockpiled numbers of blades from these sources.

The curious application of the 'Star of Solomon' on the pommel does seem decorative and might well be inspired by any number of sources, with this device often appearing on Ethiopian blades from England which came into Yemen from there. The primary interest in the blades out of Ethiopia was the rhino hilts, and the blades were either hilted in San'aa in various forms or went to trade sources eastward.

[spiral]

Fascinating one... Im interested t see the deductions!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Without going through resources in usual lengthy foray, I'd say Iain is pretty much spot on suggesting a European arming sword, probably Walloon or Pappenheimer and probably 17th century.
The shouldered forte and panel with these letters correspond to similar arrangements in Spanish/Italian blades and their Solingen counterparts.

The letters are probably acrostic, and often occur representing various slogans, invocations or mottos so are typically indecipherable. This practice seems to have originated in Italy and was soon copied widely, however there are far earlier blades with such mysterious inscribed letters.

It does seem unusual for one of these blades to end up in this particular Omani context, they are more often likely to turn up in kaskara in the rather limited cases that they do appear. It would be anyone's guess as to how this blade came into what appears to be a 'Mutrah' setting, but I think Ibrahiims suggestion of entry into the 'Red Sea' network probable. The Bedouin across Yemeni regions often stockpiled numbers of blades from these sources.

The curious application of the 'Star of Solomon' on the pommel does seem decorative and might well be inspired by any number of sources, with this device often appearing on Ethiopian blades from England which came into Yemen from there. The primary interest in the blades out of Ethiopia was the rhino hilts, and the blades were either hilted in San'aa in various forms or went to trade sources eastward.

Salaams Jim, Thank you and Iain and everyone who have applied "constructive input" so far and for your excellent deductions and observations.

It is always a danger that in the last 5 decades since Muttrah has been heavily involved in switching hilts n' blades that some local collections may have been infected. I fear that this may be the case in this sword though it is interesting with a puzzling pommel and blade inscription.

The Red Sea is indeed a complex case as blades that enter the area can funnel down and across it from many regions..and do so even today.

I seldom get the chance to inspect the collection from which this one came ...nor do I get much chance to speak to the owner ...but he says Yemen...(NOT WITHSTANDING the bladewhich looks European) and to me that seems about right and later perhaps Oman for a tang extension and pommel.

There are even more strange blades to come out from this and other sources and I shall endeavor to flash these to Forum as and when.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Gavin Nugent]

Whilst considering the outer shape of the star on the sword only, not the inter crossing lines forming the seal of Solomon, a quick Google search found this link below.
From Al Liwa, Sultanate of Oman.

http://star-of-david.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/solomon-seal-in-oman-joradan.html

A quick flick through The Craft Heritage of Oman by Richardson and Dorr notes that the 6 sectioned floral motif is featured in Oman decoration and jewellery and other craft aspects....But again without the inter crossing lines that make the seal.

Scroll down 2/3rs of the page here for a glimpse of Oman silver work in the star pattern and the Jewish reference;

https://shereenshafi.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/ibrahim-project-4b/

When considering the long established sea trade and similar cultural aspects it does not seem out of place on this sword at all.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Whilst considering the outer shape of the star on the sword only, not the inter crossing lines forming the seal of Solomon, a quick Google search found this link below.
From Al Liwa, Sultanate of Oman.

http://star-of-david.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/solomon-seal-in-oman-joradan.html

A quick flick through The Craft Heritage of Oman by Richardson and Dorr notes that the 6 sectioned floral motif is featured in Oman decoration and jewellery and other craft aspects....But again without the inter crossing lines that make the seal.

Scroll down 2/3rs of the page here for a glimpse of Oman silver work in the star pattern and the Jewish reference;

https://shereenshafi.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/ibrahim-project-4b/

When considering the long established sea trade and similar cultural aspects it does not seem out of place on this sword at all.

Gavin


Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your references are interesting and I would add that as well as the obscure window freeze at Liwa (must be one of the few remaining pieces of architecture with the 6 pointed star if infact that is what it illustrates..#see note below.) that Sohar was full of Jewish people but they were decimated by the Portuguese in the early 16th C...though remnants of an ancient Jewish temple are nearby. I know that Jewish traders and craftsmen were at Muscat and certainly in Muttrah in the mid 20th and back through the ages. Thus though I am aware of the history regarding these great traders I am not linking this sword to them (but I may be wrong).

I do, however, point you to the 6 pointed star and slug at the centre of the Wilkinson sword ...see http://mys.yoursearch.me/images?q=wilkinson+sword+star+of+david In that case the 6 pointed star is at the Ricasso but here on the project sword it is on the Pommel?.. Are we looking at a Wilkinson that has been cut up....and having the pommel decorated on a different sword... and as part of the tang and pommel extension?... I suspect this is the case.

The circular Jewellery you show at the other reference is not silver nor is it Omani since the form is wrong and it is decorated in Lapiz Lazuli ..not an Omani decorative technique. I think likely to be Pakistani or Afghan.

Islamic geometry may occasionally throw up a 6 pointer and sometimes these may be traceable as links to Jewish craftsmanship...In the Yemen for example where Jewish silver and goldsmiths did work for both Islamic and Jewish clients. Of course being a simple geometrical star is not unusual in Islamic art and shapes like it will therefor appear in Richardson and Doprr...but not on Pommels....In fact it has never so far popped up on an Omani pommel and particularly with an hole in it neither in any Omani Museum or in the document you mention.

This sword is in my view not anywhere near normal...thus my description of it as "odd"... It most certainly is not a common style in Oman, however, I challenge anyone to show me a similar sword...with that sort of blade and the very peculiar pommel decoration the like of which I have never seen.

#Note.
Please note ...from http://star-of-david.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Solomon%E2%80%99s%20seal

Quote"Star of David researchers generally indicate the Non-Jewish Star of David by the name Hexagram. Hexagram is a name invented only in recent centuries; I mean, it is not known for thousands of years how the non-Jewish Stars of David were named. "Hex" is the Greek word that represents the number six, "gram" means form. Even the Christian name for the Shield of David "the Star of David" was invented only in recent centuries. Muslims called the Star of David always the Seal of Solomon, but Seal of Solomon was used both in Judaism and in Islam also as the name of a pentagram. The Indian Star of David is commonly named Yantra".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thinking aloud ... I have to say that I think...on reflection... that the design work is added to the pommel as opposed to it having been grafted on from another sword ...See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8997 for an indicator of that and a possible link as perhaps a trade blade from Europe into Ethiopia. I will try to ascertain what its recent history was and should it have the aroma upon it having been anywhere near Muscat (which I very much suspect) I shall report that to thread. My view points to a Muttrah rehilt.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Gav! Nicely spotted and observed info regarding the familiar 'Star of David' device, which of course existed in form far earlier as the Star of Solomon, and was indeed often used in many aspects of Islamic art and material culture and in others as well . It truly is amazing how much material can be found these days on the internet! and I am always grateful for those who take the time to find such things and add them to discussions here.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the always valuable input and kind comments. It is always interesting to have your insight regarding Omani items and culture as you are quite literally centered there and offer perspective most of us would not otherwise have access to.

As you note, this particular sword is indeed 'unusual' or 'odd' as one might chose, and presents certain challenges in 'deducing' the probable inspirations and sources for its collective elements and features. That is why these threads are so important as a venue for collective discussion and sharing of material, we can all continue learning together.

I must admit I have never personally seen this star device on one of these distinctive Omani pommels, or for that matter, any form of decoration or device on them. As earlier mentioned, these six point stars are quite notably seen on many Ethiopian blades, it would seem quite likely derived from the English blades proof slug surround associated with Wilkinson Sword Co. ad their imported blades. These blades often entered the Arabian markets as also mentioned.
It is also seems the doubled lines constructing the intersected triangles is something seen in other cases, and seems to suggest an almost more decorative theme than symbolic.

While the 'Star' is certainly a key element in observing this particular sword, the clearly European blade, which is of a form not commonly seen in Omani context, is certainly a case for further 'deduction' and discussion.

I think the situation with commercial activity with Omani swords in Mutrah and others is of course one of the mitigating factors in evaluating these weapons. Despite the diffusion of blades and influences through normal trade and colonial activity, these circumstances always remain present.

In that perspective, rather than focusing on the compromising of actual historical status, I always chose to recognize the cultural and traditional aspects which are carried forth in the weapons ethnographically .

All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks Gav! Nicely spotted and observed info regarding the familiar 'Star of David' device, which of course existed in form far earlier as the Star of Solomon, and was indeed often used in many aspects of Islamic art and material culture and in others as well . It truly is amazing how much material can be found these days on the internet! and I am always grateful for those who take the time to find such things and add them to discussions here.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the always valuable input and kind comments. It is always interesting to have your insight regarding Omani items and culture as you are quite literally centered there and offer perspective most of us would not otherwise have access to.

As you note, this particular sword is indeed 'unusual' or 'odd' as one might chose, and presents certain challenges in 'deducing' the probable inspirations and sources for its collective elements and features. That is why these threads are so important as a venue for collective discussion and sharing of material, we can all continue learning together.

I must admit I have never personally seen this star device on one of these distinctive Omani pommels, or for that matter, any form of decoration or device on them. As earlier mentioned, these six point stars are quite notably seen on many Ethiopian blades, it would seem quite likely derived from the English blades proof slug surround associated with Wilkinson Sword Co. ad their imported blades. These blades often entered the Arabian markets as also mentioned.
It is also seems the doubled lines constructing the intersected triangles is something seen in other cases, and seems to suggest an almost more decorative theme than symbolic.

While the 'Star' is certainly a key element in observing this particular sword, the clearly European blade, which is of a form not commonly seen in Omani context, is certainly a case for further 'deduction' and discussion.

I think the situation with commercial activity with Omani swords in Mutrah and others is of course one of the mitigating factors in evaluating these weapons. Despite the diffusion of blades and influences through normal trade and colonial activity, these circumstances always remain present.

In that perspective, rather than focusing on the compromising of actual historical status, I always chose to recognize the cultural and traditional aspects which are carried forth in the weapons ethnographically .

All best regards,
Jim


Salaams Jim, Your summary so far as the project sword is concerned is accurate and excellent. I have noted how Muslims called the Star of David always the Seal of Solomon, but the Seal of Solomon was used both in Judaism and in Islam also as the name of a pentagram. The Indian Star of David is commonly named Yantra"

I have also observed certain Islamic Omani silver Jewellery devices which have both the 5 pointed star and the two triangle Hex style that many readers will (wrongly but understandably ) identify as Jewish in nature.

I note that Wilkinson stars were not originally placed with any religious concept in mind...It was simply an attractive design.

Applying a logical thought to what we see on the Project sword. We see a European blade with as yet unknown capitals (I thought these were either Cyrilic or Amharic) Either way this is not an Arabian blade form...Then there is the obviously extended tang and pommel with this extraordinary decoration not seen by me or anyone else on any Omani blade in this category...

It begins ...does it not? to wander into the area rehilted blades ...and especially because of that pommel distinctly into the area of Omani Sayf Dancing Sword form.

It is my opinion that having seen thousands of Omani Sayf Dancing Swords and because none have been decorated at the pommel like this... on an extended tang... that this is a rehilt...and came about through association with the Muttrah workshops....thus its Omani long hilt preparation; What we are looking at is a Muttrah Rehilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
The design on the ricasso of British swords is of two interlocking triangles signifying strength, it has nothing to do with the Star of David, the Seal of Solomon or any other six pointed device esoteric, artistic or otherwise. Hope this clears up the misconceptions re this symbol on British blades.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi,
The design on the ricasso of British swords is of two interlocking triangles signifying strength, it has nothing to do with the Star of David, the Seal of Solomon or any other six pointed device esoteric, artistic or otherwise. Hope this clears up the misconceptions re this symbol on British blades.
Regards,
Norman.

Well noted Norman!
We got that from Wilkinson during research when it was suggested that the 'star' surround with the proof slug may have been associated to Masonic symbolism. As with many forms of symbol, they often have many connotations and possible meaning in many contexts.

All the best,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I place again the detail important in considering the nature of the star geometry on this added to sword at Project... The tang is extended and the pommel is added ...therefor, the star design should be seen in that context...

Quote"Star of David researchers generally indicate the Non-Jewish Star of David by the name Hexagram. Hexagram is a name invented only in recent centuries; I mean, it is not known for thousands of years how the non-Jewish Stars of David were named. "Hex" is the Greek word that represents the number six, "gram" means form. Even the Christian name for the Shield of David "the Star of David" was invented only in recent centuries.

Muslims called the Star of David always the Seal of Solomon, but Seal of Solomon was used both in Judaism and in Islam also as the name of a pentagram. The Indian Star of David is commonly named Yantra".Unquote.

Star and Hexagram appear in Islamic tradition and can be seen on Islamic Silver ..from Oman on items I have researched on ladies head dress and broches as part of an in depth appreciation of Omani Silver generally...Both the star and Hex are common in this regard. However, no hex designs are recorded or seen on Omani Swords in the ceremonial style or other Omani Swords as Pommel decoration thus this decoration appears as a one off and unrelated issue.

Below I place pictures relevant to tang and Pommel extension and an idea of the type of design on Pommels (which usually don't have any design at all) See also the form of Omani Silver showing stars and the pentagon or Hex design but in the Islamic meaning unrelated to the Jewish style..See the Hexagon decoration on what I recall was a Red Sea variant applied probably in the Yemen to the throat of the blade... For interest.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Or .... are we looking at a Portuguese blade ?... see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369&highlight=portuguese+swords It occurred to me that the tang looks very old....and compare the Ricasso ... It looks Portuguese. Is it possible that this is originally a Portuguese weapon and a left over after they left Oman in 1650?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Am i missing a couple points here ... or are my eyes tricking me ? :o::confused:

Isn't there one more letter (figure) before the five ones that have been mentioned, close from the tang ... as also a sign that the blade has been longer ?
Isn't the particularity of the blade being riveted to the tang also an oddity ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The letters appear to read...or are inscribed similar to M 5 1 D D M

The rivets are indeed odd. See another rivet application at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=10&pp=30&highlight=blade+rivets post #271.

Salaams Ibrahiim al Balooshi... :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...

Then again if we look at Cyrillic capitals turning this line upside down M 5 1 D D M and discarding for now the two outer M looking letters ... stay with me and no cheating by standing on your head!!

The 4 letters remaining, in Cyrillic,
read W el, el, polochka, koppa. W

The two identical outer letters put as W ? I have no idea.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

... The rivets are indeed odd. See another rivet application at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=10&pp=30&highlight=blade+rivets post #271...
But to my eyes the rivets in that one have the purpose to attach that rectangular adornment to the blade, whereas in the present one they seem to be the actual fixation of the tang to the blade. But i don't know :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ Please note the more accurate letters represented as A 5 1 U U A


I puzzle as to the language. Is it an unrelated fact that this weapon is said to have been purchased in Yemen ...is the star shape a red herring since it seems to be part of an elongated tang...or...?

We have a series of letters that look like A 5 1 U U A Not English but Latin or Greek or.... ?

Taking each letter one by one;

A ...Perhaps Not an A but possibly since there is one at each end of the letters some sort of brackets in which the saying is placed possibly a holy incantation thus what appears to be crown shaped A at each end...I pencil in Crown A Shapes..

5 ...not a full 5...the top is missing. Is this a figure 3(Gimmel) in Hebrew ... ? Or is it the much more interesting Zayin in Hebrew...In its cursive form? Which means a number of different concepts/things including the number 7. It also stands for Jesus combined with the Holy Spirit...and interestingly enough a weapon or sword.

I ...see below. As a number its a 6

U U ..each looks like an inside out u As a number it is 9....so we have 9 9

It appears to read from the left A 7 6 9 9 A where the A are crowns? and where there is also a possibility that the fig 7 could be something entirely different !

Note. see http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Zayin/zayin.html

see https://www.pinterest.com/pin/167759154844035074/ for more numerical/letter clues.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further!
While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well.

I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.:)

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further!
While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well.

I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.:)

[Andreas]

My Latin is a bit rusty (to say the least :) ), but the letters U and V being interchangeable, the inscription could be read as A DIVUM, which can be translated as FROM GOD
Regards

[fernando]

What about ABIDUM ? a Latin term that in portuguese translates as: vai-te pois; in french translates as: va-t’en donc. In english would be: Go, then ... or: hence go. As if inciting the sword to go through :o

[Andreas]

What about ABIDUM ? a Latin term that in portuguese translates as: vai-te pois; in french translates as: va-t’en donc. In english would be: Go, then ... or: hence go. As if inciting the sword to go through :o

Or telling the potential foe to make himself scarce! But the third and fourth letters do seem identical.
Regards
Andreas

[fernando]

Or telling the potential foe to make himself scarce!...
Good point!


...But the third and fourth letters do seem identical.

Yes and no ... as also each of the other letters seems to belong to a different style.
Pity that the pictures quality is so limited :o .

[Andreas]

Good point!



Pity that the pictures quality is so limited :o .

Agreed!

[A.alnakkas]

I know the owner of this sword, he have sent me photos before and not much was found in the inscription by people whom I asked to examine. Will ask him again for clearer photos if he still owns it. Although there is nothing unusual about it, its part of a well established sword type that mainly has trade blades and Omani mounts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I know the owner of this sword, he have sent me photos before and not much was found in the inscription by people whom I asked to examine. Will ask him again for clearer photos if he still owns it. Although there is nothing unusual about it, its part of a well established sword type that mainly has trade blades and Omani mounts.

Nothing unusual about it? I think it is extremely unusual. The tang extension, the blade, the pommel decoration, the blade marks. In fact it is the most unusual sword I have ever seen. I doubt you know the owner but... my suspicion is that this has been sourced out of the situation in Mutrah. The claim was that this was purchased in Yemen. It may well have been and in addition it may have been altered in Mutrah. It looks Portuguese.

There are trade blades from 1970 in the world sword system which were instigated through Mutrah from Ethiopia via Sanaa...til today ~ This could be from the same source.

The straight Omani dancing bladed sword or Sayf(Saif) (not to be confused with the Old Omani Battle Sword we are discussing here) which was inspired by Said the Great in the early part of the 19th Century is essentially hugely flexible and homegrown so far as I can see; purely in Oman. It is a dancing sword/and to hail the ruler/pageantry item/sword only. Many thousand straight blades have been through the hands of the Mutrah workshops in the past 45 years and have totally confused and conned most of the international sword collectors serious and incidental... Said the Great of old would probably be laughing about that...as we do here in Oman now. :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Nothing unusual about it? I think it is extremely unusual. The tang extension, the blade, the pommel decoration, the blade marks. In fact it is the most unusual sword I have ever seen. I doubt you know the owner but... my suspicion is that this has been sourced out of the situation in Mutrah. The claim was that this was purchased in Yemen. It may well have been and in addition it may have been altered in Mutrah. It looks Portuguese.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The tang extension is an existing method for rehilting blades. The inscriptions exist on European blades which also exist in the region which part of is Oman. The sword is in the UAE as far as I know, it belongs to a prominent collection and you posted before the screenshots from the owner's instagram account. Unless sold to Oman recently. :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The tang extension is an existing method for rehilting blades. The inscriptions exist on European blades which also exist in the region which part of is Oman. The sword is in the UAE as far as I know, it belongs to a prominent collection and you posted before the screenshots from the owner's instagram account. Unless sold to Oman recently. :-)

Correct about the rehilting proceedure in the specific part of Mutrah I am indicating...but you miss an important issue...These swords only began to enter the market in 1970. Before that there was no such trade. ...These Ethiopian blades have been filtered into the Mutrah SOUK/purchased from Sanaa ...rehilted to look Omani...though some have been sold on as is...and banged out to unsuspecting tourists and collectors alike.

I have one which has a very flexible blade ...equally as bendy as an Omani blade but its inscribed from hilt to tip in Ethiopian script...You are well aware that Mutrah is playing this game ... so is Forum ... Here Maude "Theres a sword ere he says is his uncles and its 1000 years old...Yes Dear he takes Visa !!... :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thanks to those who have had a go at the script so far....For anyone looking at the script it appears as A 5 1 U U A The initial and final letters are the same and seem to be in A form or rather as crown shapes. The inverted G or 5 without its top...has a meaning and a number in Hebrew ...see previous post # 29...As has the 1 and the U U and finally another A.

I suspect Hebrew as the Latin and Cyrillic do not correspond....anyone understand Hebrew please?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Correct about the rehilting proceedure in the specific part of Mutrah I am indicating...but you miss an important issue...These swords only began to enter the market in 1970. Before that there was no such trade. ...These Ethiopian blades have been filtered into the Mutrah SOUK/purchased from Sanaa ...rehilted to look Omani...though some have been sold on as is...and banged out to unsuspecting tourists and collectors alike.

I have one which has a very flexible blade ...equally as bendy as an Omani blade but its inscribed from hilt to tip in Ethiopian script...You are well aware that Mutrah is playing this game ... so is Forum ... Here Maude "Theres a sword ere he says is his uncles and its 1000 years old...Yes Dear he takes Visa !!... :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well aware of your hypothesis. Sadly you provided zero conclusive proof to make it even half believable.

And this is not an Ethiopian blade as Ethiopia mainly imported blades. The Ethiopians do not round the tip, but I guess you'll claim that is a Mutrah edition? makes no sense but if you insist, keep on believing that :-) anyways, will post some clearer photos from the owner's page. Atleast some reference is due.

[A.alnakkas]

Hope these are clear enough.

[A.alnakkas]

Also belonging to the same owner. He sent me these photos in February where I and Iain tried along with others to decipher the script.

Although this iron hilted sword has new dress (silver hilt covering) the iron hilt is still shown especially the quillons and the dome shaped pommel. Also since this is a 'battle' sword (also worn in ceremonial purposes by the Omani sultan himself - not this particular example but a famous photo of young Sultan Qaboos shows him wielding a similar sword gold fitted) has a European blade similar in some ways to the sword published before. Proving how well the practice of using European blades dates far in time. But I suppose this is also a Mutrah fake made in the surprisingly precise date of 1970.

(I await how the iron hilt will be ignored and the obviously modern edition used as some 'evidence' that this sword is new)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you for the excellent pictures ... I had not seen these before...nor do I have permission to show the owner details so ...You may have but he otherwise may not like it...Consider removing his photo please. Oh and I am aware of the way blades entered and exited the Ethiopian region..yes! from Europe thence to Sanaa in Yemen and since 1970 to Muscat/Mutrah and Salalah. Mutrah are quite capable of making round square or any other shapes at the swords tip...They have a workshops expert at that sort of engineering.

On a point of order ...did I ever say that Omani Battle Swords never had other blades?...I certainly believe Omani dancing sword blades were all home grown...but the Sayf Yamaani...? I dont think I have insisted upon that accreditation ...I will check my thread...and having done so No I have never said that because firstly; I have never before seen a European blade fitted to the Sayf Yamaani hilt . Secondly; I have still not pinpointed the origin of manufacture if in fact there is one place.. Perhaps it is in the Yemen? Hadramaut? Thus Sayf Yamaani...or is that just the name? It may have been made in a number of places some of which may be in Oman like Nizwa?? Certainly the original wing shaped cross section style appears to be its birthright...and copied therafter. There is supposed to be a Portuguese bladed weapon on a Sayf Yamaani rig in a museum in Muscat but Mutrah sold them that...they say... so.... I have never seen a European blade on a Sayf Yamaani until today though that is hugely suspect since that one you show, I believe, is from Mutrah in the early days around 1970.

You show a most interesting blade face with the letters SVARES on it... I dont have any idea what that is but clearly it appears to be of European make...Solingen? at a guess. It is not an Arabian weapon but looks Portuguese? thus its origin / where it was obtained I know not... perhaps you can fill in the blanks?

What is interesting is the peculiar play on the other face of the pommel which implies in my view a talismanic aspect ...Have you any idea what that may be?

The other inscription ...Is that on the reverse of the SVARES blade? ... It looks Latin.

The other sword is an Omani Old Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani with a strange hilt made in an attempt to qualify it as a Royal Omani Hilt but with an unusual silver woven overgrip and a non Omani blade. This also looks European possibly German/Portuguese as well.

The origin of species of the Sayf Yamaani sword goes back 1000 years and more... I may be guilty of over defending that form though as I say there is no proof that other blades somehow became inserted except as I have indicated since 1970...by the Mutrah people.

The one you show is a complete rejigged hilt, hilt cover, blade and all including fine work in the scabbard etc ...Its a pity really since the blade is exceptional, old and European. Its a Mutrah Special!!

The Sayf Yamaani sword you mention belonging to the Ruler indeed has gold mounts and may be seen at my thread on this weapon http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482&page=3&pp=30&highlight=sayf+yamaani at #69.


Conclusion ~ It may now be shown that in conclusion;

1. The destination/rejigging of the sword at #1 was probably to be as a lookalike Omani dancing sword with extended tang on an European blade however purchased before that work was completed..Pure Mutrah done recently~ Fake.

2. By reverse engineering the sword that looks like an Omani Battle Sword; it can be seen as a European blade refitted with a spare Omani Battle Sword Hilt and Pommel, Grip in Woven Silver and accompanying Scabbard in the Omani Style. Pure Mutrah. 1970 or later ~ Fake.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, thank you so much for your tenacity in pursuing this curious inscription further!
While all of this is indeed complex, and very much could be red herring matter, it is fascinating to analyze. The complexities of the Hebrew language and the gemetria, as well as those of the Kabbala are factors often deeply involved in sword blade inscriptions of Europe and certainly may well have been involved in the Middle East and Arabia as well.

I do hope others will join in with the intriguing mystery this blade presents, as clearly this elusive inscription is almost a taunting conundrum.:)


Salaams Jim and thank you for the encouraging words. I have examined these peculiar capital letters and traced some to southern Italian regions such as Messapic and Old Church Slavonic in particular the A shape with the small vee shaped crossbar and a slight comma diving off to the left side top.

I have analysed about 50 separate language forms but am little closer to the full picture though I feel it is in the general area Hebrew, Latin, Greek..I am pretty well convinced it is Hebrew of the special form shown at ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_script but I cannot find the special A in this form.... could it be mixed?

Where does the special A form come from??; Old Church Slavonic ....From Wikepedia Quote "Old Church Slavonic (pronunciation: /ˌoʊld tʃɜrtʃ sləˈvɒnɪk/, /-slæˈ-/),[2] also known as Old Church Slavic (/ˌoʊld tʃɜrtʃ ˈslaːvɪk/;[2] often abbreviated to OCS; self-name словѣ́ньскъ ѩзꙑ́къ, slověnĭskŭ językŭ), was the first Slavic literary language.

The 9th-century Byzantine Greek missionaries Saints Cyril and Methodius are credited with standardizing the language and using it in translating the Bible and other Ancient Greek ecclesiastical texts as part of the Christianisation of the Slavic peoples.[3] It is thought to have been based primarily on the dialect of the 9th century Byzantine Slavs living in the Province of Thessalonica (now in Greece).

It played an important role in the history of the Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic traditions, and some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches use this later Church Slavonic as a liturgical language to this day. As the oldest attested Slavic language, OCS provides important evidence for the features of Proto-Slavic, the reconstructed common ancestor of all Slavic languages".Unquote.

Are they linked...? It may be noted that The Second Book of Enoch was preserved in Old Church Slavonic, although the original most certainly had been Greek or even Hebrew or Aramaic. :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Actually this was deciphered thanks to the help and expertise of a friend some time ago (he's a member here but I will leave it to him to elaborate if he chooses) when I was first asked to look at it. Its a Solingen blade from the 16th century and the inscription is de Ioan, a variation of the popular Ioanes "me fecit" inscription.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Actually this was deciphered thanks to the help and expertise of a friend some time ago (he's a member here but I will leave it to him to elaborate if he chooses) when I was first asked to look at it. Its a Solingen blade from the 16th century and the inscription is de Ioan, a variation of the popular Ioanes "me fecit" inscription.


I think you mean the sword that has just arrived at thread not the one at #1. The Pure Mutrah. 1970 or later ~ Fake.

I assume the one you mean is inscribed in a Latin format whilst I believe the #1 weapon is in some other language which I suspect is Hebrew ...or possibly OCS.

[Iain]

I think you mean the sword that has just arrived at thread not the one at #1.

Of course, I am directly referencing where I was mentioned.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Of course, I am directly referencing where I was mentioned.


Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also... :)

[Iain]

Thank you for the information. I think it is one thing to get involved and crack the inscription but it is unsatisfactory to be hoodwinked into thinking that a sword is genuine when in fact it is put together by expert forgers...It is the same as someone sticking a French blade on a Japanese hilt...is it not? I have known the owner of this sword for 20 years and I believe he has been completely ripped off ...This is a rehilt done after 1970...and is a complete con. I wish he had observed these pages much earlier ...he may have also directly referenced where he had mentioned also... :)

The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.

[fernando]

One may as well presume (not assume) that these are inscriptions made by a language native; even going into the fantasy of them being made in exotic idioms. But naturaly we should also admit that they are made by iliterate smiths, with an intention to either deceive or at least create an enticing atmosphere.
The last inscription SVARES is potentially an atempt to write the Portuguese name SOARES. The V being used as U, in early times and up until late, makes it sound precisely the same; hence a smart smith out there spelling the name SOARES as he heard it.
Such family name was currently used at the period (and up until now) and is related, for one, with discoveries navigators of high rank.


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The blade is what it is, a nice and old European blade. I won't comment on the mounting and age.


It is quite obviously a nice old European Blade. It was, however, imported after 1970 and joined to an equally nice Omani Battle Sword Hilt (then given the Royal Hilt treatment)...The hilt probably originally also quite old and I would reasonably guess about 200/250 years ....going by the look of the pommel...but it wouldn't matter if the hilt was 100 or 1,000 years old since they were stuck together in about 1970....in Mutrah. It is therefor what? An Omani Battle Sword?... I don't think so...Nice blade or not, the sword is a fake. :shrug:

[Ian]

Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.

I think Iain and Fernando have now moved on to talk about the blade and what the inscription might mean. Fernando's reading of SUARES/SOARES is an interesting suggestion and might indicate a Portuguese origin. The other inscription seems more problematic.

Ian.

[A.alnakkas]

Ibrahiim:

I think you have made a strong case (several times) for this sword to be a recent marriage of an old European blade and an old Omani hilt that has been dressed up to be sold as something it is not--in other words it is a fake pretending to be an older sword. I don't hear anyone really objecting to your conclusions.

I believe various objections were made in the topic that got locked. And I did as well in this one. Unless you consider repetition to be a 'strong' argument then case is closed. But let me restate what Ibrahim considers to be the reason why these are fakes;

1- Omanis do not use European trade blades (unlike the whole world and existing evidence that they did)

2- Therefore all Omani swords with European blades are automatically deemed as fakes. Even when there is no evidence to that.

---

The Ethiopian swords drowning the Arab world from Yemen all the way to Syria (pre-mess) are well known, and yes, there are Arab craftsmen who used the fine trade blades on Ethiopian swords to make new swords. This is seen in Oman (on swords with NEW dress) and Yemen and Saudi Arabia as well. Now this does not mean that every single European blade made it to the region through Ethiopia and 1970 that Ibrahim keeps repeating. There is evidence in Museums and collections abroad and within the region of such blades existing in the region for quite a long time.

Both blades published here are not of the type that is commonly find on Ethiopian swords, and the rounded tip on the first shows elements that are Omani rather than Ethiopian. We all know the tourist sword industry, I see no reason why they would round the tip, antique the blade to perfection to sell to tourists? makes no sense at all. All that added to the patina, the proper quality old riveting on the hilt tang compared to swords shared by Ibrahim with crappy welding.

Also, by all means visit Oman and visit Mutrah, I've been there and the demand for older European blades like this is high and seen as part of the sword culture there. Not Ethiopian swords made by Wilkinson, but Portuguese blades and older German ones. There are rehilts in Mutrah, and those are pointed out as so. It also happens that all the swords with proper blades were in private collections, while the rehilts (obviously so to collectors) are offered for sale.

But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by A. alnakkas
But I guess lets just believe that Omanis had swords to dance with and swords to fight with. They probably had toy horses too.


Gentlemen, any further sarcasm or baiting by anyone will be dealt with quickly and harshly. You have been warned.

Robert

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Inscription on # 1.

I think Hebrew is the form. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi_script#/media/File:RashiAlphabetVector.svg Actually the difficulty appears with the two A forms either flank of the line of letters SIMILAR TO A 51UU A already outlined at #46.

I mention OCS Old Church Slavonic see https://www.flickr.com/photos/habersham/3959722987/?ytcheck=1which is well worth a look since the second line from the bottom and at number two from the right is the odd A I think we are looking for.

The links to Hebrew in this ancient form may well form the bridge to this mixed line of script. :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It may mean absolutely nothing at all!!

From ananael@blogspot.com I QUOTE" Two swords bearing esoteric inscriptions are now on display at the Guildhall Museum in Boston, UK. They date from the 13th or 14th century and were discovered together at the bottom of the Witham River. So far the inscriptions have defied translation, though they may very well consist of magical formulas rather than words from any particular language. The use of such formulas was a common practice in the Middle Ages and early Renaissance. The famous phrase SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS, for example, does contain words that can be translated from Latin, but its function is more likely linked to that of the 5x5 magic square of Mars which its structure resembles.

Officials at the Guildhall say the best guess is that the weapons were dressed in such a fashion to endow them with special magical properties such as enabling their owners to vanquish any foe and endow their swords with the life force energy of their opponents.It is probable that the "magical" inscriptions were not visible when the swords were made and that only corrosion and decay of the outer surfaces over the centuries has now allowed their secrets to be revealed.

Mystery also surrounds their discovery close together at the bottom of the river near Bardney. One theory is that they may have been votive offerings to please the gods and so deliberately placed in the waters. At that time the Witham was the "motorway" of the day between Boston and Lincoln so the swords' owners may have been from this area and would certainly have been familiar with it. The swords are iron double-edged with a groove running down the greater part of the blade.

One has straight hand guard of circular section and a wheel pommel. The inscription on this one reads: '+SNEXORENEXORENEXOR ENE XOREIS+'.


The + probably represents the sign of the cross, as is commonly found on devices constructed by Christian magicians. The first part of the phrase, SNEXORENEXORENEXOR could be a gloss for SNEXORE NEXORE NEXOR, a reduction formula in which each subsequent word is shortened by a letter. ABRACADABRA can be written this way as a triangle in which each word loses one letter from the line above it. The reduction of the root word, in this case SNEXORE, served to concentrate its power and essence. The meaning of the keyword itself, though, could be just about anything, from poorly copied Greek or Hebrew from one of the old grimoires to a notariquon (or acronym) encoding some magical phrase or text".UNQUOTE.

WHILST READERS MAY TEND TO DISAGREE WITH SOME OF THE ABOVE HYPOTHESIS ..P[ERSONALLY i AM UNSURE OF THE IDEA THAT SWORDS WERE MADE WITH A HIDDEN TEXT ON THE BLADE WHICH APPEARED AFTER THE SWORD HAD CORRODED...NO I CANT QUITE SEE THAT...HOWEVER THE OTHER GENERAL IDEAS ARE INTERESTING ...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source.

There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either.


Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-))))

Pure Western Europe.

[Ian]

Ibrahiim: Your last post may be on target. While, at one time, the second inscription may have meant something to someone, that meaning seems to have been lost over time and today we are left with an unintelligible mystery. Thanks for your pursuit of many and varied possibilities, even in scripts that are archaic today!

Ariel: Western Europe may well be the source, and I think there is a general consensus that this is a European blade.

Ian

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There is not a trace, not a hint, not a whiff of Hebrew here. If you need confirmation, Artzi Yarom is the source.

There is not a trace, hint or whiff of Old Slavonic Glagolitic here, either.


Having seen the most recent pics, I thought that Soares was the obvious answer. Fernando beat me to it :-))))

Pure Western Europe.


Salaams ariel, Are you referring to the sword at $1? since the SOARES inscription is not the project I am trying to translate?? Observe the Norwegian for the word Svare...which means answer respond or reply... seems like a reasonable solution except its got an S on the end but these inscriptions are rarely accurate...

However, please do look at the letters on #1 and tell me what language in western Europe uses the form that is similar to A 51UU A

Where the two A looking characters are quite different to European A style having a vee or tee shaped crossbar and which is almost identical to OCS.

Where the letter Zayin (similar to a 5 with no top) is a Hebrew Cursive letter...

Where the two letter U forms are also Hebrew. They appear as almost IJ close together...

Finally if you have a better idea or your associate can help by all means lets hear it from that quarter ...

Which European language/western language might this be from? I would be delighted to hear it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim: Your last post may be on target. While, at one time, the second inscription may have meant something to someone, that meaning seems to have been lost over time and today we are left with an unintelligible mystery. Thanks for your pursuit of many and varied possibilities, even in scripts that are archaic today!

Ariel: Western Europe may well be the source, and I think there is a general consensus that this is a European blade.

Ian


Salaams Ian, For sure the blade is European ...I would say Portuguese, Italian or German style like Papenheimer or something similar... but the script...whilst it may mean nothing is taunting since it is so close to some of the varieties like OCS and Hebrew... I just cant match a European alphabet to it... I still think Hebrew may be the answer however I am sure it will turn up some day...

Actually, though it would be nice to crack the code it doesn't really matter since the essence of the idea and the peculiar circumstances of this blade and others like it into and out of the Red Sea Arena are more clearly understood with such examples albeit with much skulduggery attached. Fortunately we have uncovered this practice of hilt switching having shone the bright light (of field research) into that dark corner..

It's no great surprise since even great museums around the world are infiltrated with very clever stuff...As they say... "If only they could talk" ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Think of the X's not as letters but as 'separators', as often happens.
Then you a continued sequence of the terms related, mispell allowed, with the latin verb ORARE (orar em portuguese, meaning to pray).

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, you have undertaken a daunting task in trying to decipher this inscription on what appears to be a genuine early European blade, and probably of any one of the nationalities you note. There was so much diffusion of blades that it is difficult to align according to known phrases and invocations except by pure speculation. It seems early, perhaps 17th c, and probably of an arming sword as you mention.

You have conducted a superbly admirable investigation into the most esoteric field in the study of these blades, the mysterious and as Ian has noted, now long lost meaning of these inscriptions, markings and invocations.

While the lettering and arrangements of characters and letters may not correspond precisely to any single alphabet or language, for that matter even translate into recognizable words, there are many variables in possible explanation.
First of all, and particularly in the Solingen case, the application of lettering and inscriptions were carried out by artisans who were in essence, often 'artistically' copying these from other examples. In most cases of course not only were they not speakers of the other languages, they were likely only moderately literate in their own.

In other instances, there was the use of acrostics and gemetria or number values signified by letters. These curious grouping of letters, sometimes symbols or sigils, were probably not particularly easy to transcribe, and in these kinds of 'coded' messages, the omission or misrepresentation of any may render any translation meaningless.

Still, it is truly rewarding and fascinating to see a discussion where the participants are actively looking at and evaluating the many possibilities which may be at hand.

It is good to see the focus on this blade, and its possible origins.

Nicely done, thank you,
Jim



Salaams Jim, Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. As you know the ''whats in a word conundrum'' accelerates into hyperspace once the Runic/ Talismanic and hidden meanings of Latin, Hebrew or associated script arrives in the 21st Century from way back when... For example as Fernando has explained the x is not an x and sometimes the spelling is contrived.

Your analysis on the swords birthplace is likely and though I knew very little about European blades before now this opportunity to get down and examine them here has been a great experience.

A number of additional things have surfaced in this thread not least the complicated Pommel which I believe in its own right would make a fantastic exhibit in a creditable Museum since it is a genuine old Omani Dancing Sword part probably from the early days of dancing swords in the early first or second decade of the 19thC . Not only does it portray an Islamic 6 pointed star but on another face a very impressive gridded keyboard arrangement playing with the arabic figure five O...The Talismanic 5.

Having this detail on library is so important to potential students and in its own right this Pommel could form the basis for a very good PHD study.

Thanks again for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For all readers I would like to quote a remarkable piece from wikipedia which underpins the almost impossible task (unless your rubic cube reassembly time is under 25 seconds) of unscrambling these sword inscriptions...

I QUOTE "The Pernik sword
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia~

The Pernik sword is a medieval double-edged iron sword unearthed in the ruins of the medieval fortress of Krakra near Pernik, western Bulgaria, on 1 January 1921. It bears an inscription in silver inlay on the blade.

The sword is preserved in the National Archaeological Museum of Bulgaria in Sofia under inventory number 2044. The sword is 96 centimetres (38 in) in length and up to 4.5 cm (1.8 in) in width.

The inscription, written in the Latin alphabet, was long considered incomprehensible. It reads as follows:

“ +IHININIhVILPIDHINIhVILPN+ ”

Two decipherments have been proposed. One view, expressed in the original archaeological publication about the sword, has been that the text represents a series of Latin abbreviations of sacred formulae that were intended to bring good fortune, as found on other swords from the 12th and 13th centuries.

Following the transcriptions proposed by other authors for similar letter sequences, one Bulgarian author suggested a tentative reading of the Pernik inscription along the lines of "IH(ESUS). IN I(HESUS) N(OMINE). IH(ESUS) VI(RGO). L(AUS) P(ATRIS) I(HESUS) D(OMINI) H(RISTUS). IN IH(ESUS) VI(RGO). L(AUS) P(ATRIS) N(OSTRIS)",

that is to say "Jesus -- in Jesus' name -- Jesus, the Virgin -- praise of the Father, Jesus, the Lord, Christ -- in Jesus, the Virgin - praise of Our Father" (the de-abbreviated words have not been consistently declined).

To put this into perspective, it may be observed that on other swords, the common formula in nomine domini, "in the Lord's name" was abbreviated in ways ranging from the unmistakable NNOMNEDMN to the heavily distorted NINOMINED, OIEDOMINI, INNIOINNEDINI, etc.

Longer inscriptions could be incoherent and contracted to the point of complete opacity, for example INPMPNC I(n) n(omine) p(atris) M(ater) p(atris) n(ostri) C(hristi), "In the name of the Father. Mother of Our Father Christ" or IINBITTPINI I(esus). I(n) n(omine) b(eati) I(esu). T(rinitas). T(rinitas). P(atris) I(esu) n(omine) I(n), "Jesus -- in the name of the blessed Jesus -- Trinity -- Trinity -- Of the Father -- of Jesus -- the name -- in".

A more recent attempt at decipherment, dating from 2005, suggested that the inscription was in an early West Germanic language (Austro-Bavarian or Lombardic of ca. the 6th to 8th century). The proposed parsing is "IH INI NI hVIL PIDH, INI hVIL PN", meaning "I do not await eternity, I am eternity", or literally "I inside not time wait, inside time am" (hvil being cognate to English while and German Weile). If the parsing is plausible or at least the identification of the written language is correct, the text is of great importance to the history of Germanic languages". UNQUOTE.

I might add~"Whilst somewhat bewildering to Ethnographic Sword enthusiasts" !! :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Notes; See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pernik_sword

[fernando]

Wouldn't the Bulgarian author's suggestion be all but a linear approach ? or otherwise being based on strong evidence or scholarship reasoning ... :o .
The popular (that not born) name of Jesus, a term Latinized from the Greek, doesn't feature the H after the I.
Unless we consider its translation to archaic english, which i am afraid would make it a longer shot in this situation.
Also the allusion to his virginity wasn't currently called upon inscriptions, instead, that of Mary, as we all know to be mentioned in countless situations.
But then again, he must have his reasons :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Wouldn't the Bulgarian author's suggestion be all but a linear approach ? or otherwise being based on strong evidence or scholarship reasoning ... :o .
The popular (that not born) name of Jesus, a term Latinized from the Greek, doesn't feature the H after the I.
Unless we consider its translation to archaic english, which i am afraid would make it a longer shot in this situation.
Also the allusion to his virginity wasn't currently called upon inscriptions, instead, that of Mary, as we all know to be mentioned in countless situations.
But then again, he must have his reasons :shrug:


Yes that may be your take on it..and I would not argue with that...but... as the passage indicates that "the de abbreviated words have not been consistently declined" moreover I think it is what it doesn't say which is relevant and quite beyond me, that is, ...To even get close to this often secretive meaning ones armoury should contain a host of certificates not least a degree in Latin and Greek as well as Hebrew,OCS, Old Bulgarian, Cyrillic and on top of that a highly specialized understanding of Biblical Studies ... The specialty benefiting from Bulgarian Runic inscriptions as well as Taliaman symbols and secret texts etc.

It is simply not enough to be grounded in a few Latin phrases and sayings as it is literally clouded in short initials and secrecy... and at the end of the day it may be uncrackable!!

It is as complex a subject as Talismanic signs thus this is indeed the Rubic Cube of Ethnographic Weapons study...and I have to say it is a bridge somewhat beyond my ability.

I also do not think it wholly central to the thread as I see it...since the essence of what we are looking at is swords of a certain origin not of the country of manufacture but assuming the cloak of originality knitted by a master of disguises...and although I am very intrigued by the Pommel and Talismans described earlier, I am not so concerned now with the blade or what is upon it. Naturally others may take this on if they have a few hours to spare !! though it is a real monster ! It is hardly surprising that there are few documents available on the subject.

Thank you very much for showing some of the complexities of this puzzling subject.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

I think i should come back to lettering issue, even if i am in part correcting my previous consideration.
My idea is that, the contents of what i have learnt may be useful for collectors general knowledge.
Having consulted some of my old books in Portuguese armoury (Viterbo 1907-1908), i foccused on the the way the name of Jesus Christ and document dating were practised in the XVI century, when Kings issued letters of previlege to armoury smiths.
I can not type the way these were done, as current keyboards do not have such characters, as also the fonts used by Viterbo printers in 1907 may also be a bit distorced.
This way i show parts in the book where Jesus Christ "initials" are mentioned, as well as a genuine print that comes in a "reformulation of the Rules of the Order of Christ" (ex-Templars), published in 1503.
In both cases the letter H has a place but, above all, it is interesting to know how these symbols may appear in weapons ... and not only.
Also the type of dating is most interesting as, being Roman numeration, is rather different than that used nowadays. I phoned the experts in Torre do Tombo (National Archives) and they told me that, in that early period, Roman numeration had a difftent 'convention' ... which i, for one, was not aware of.
I also upload here a couple examples contained in such letters of previlege so that, if these figures show up in old (Portuguese) swords, won't be a complete surprise.

.

[Ian]

Fernando, that is really very interesting. Thanks for your work on this.

Ian

[Andreas]

How interesting! I have never seen this particular style of numbering and dating before, I think it must be an exclusively Portuguese practice?
Andreas

[fernando]

How interesting! I have never seen this particular style of numbering and dating before, I think it must be an exclusively Portuguese practice?
Andreas
Ah, silly me ... i could have asked :( .
But i was so surprised by having an expert from the National Archives answering my direct questions that i dared not be boring.
Will try and find out with some intensive (so it seems) browsing in the Portuguese web.

But at least ...
I asked her if that was an internal practice of the Torre do Tombo (National Archives) and she no; documents are revealed as they original were.

And not only these numbers were used for dating but also to quantify things, as seen, for one, in the vast inventory of the Arsenal of Tanger, taken in 1568, where listed items, like crossbows, helmets, cannons and so, were accounted with such numeration.

[fernando]

Fernando, that is really very interesting. Thanks for your work on this.

Ian


:cool:

[Andreas]

But i was so surprised by having an expert from the National Archives answering my direct questions that i dared not be boring.


I know exactly what you mean!!
:)

[fernando]

And now, for those who have fun with talismanic writings, here is the contents of the blank page that preeceds the prologue of "Rules of the Knights of the Order of Christ".

The hand written paragraph says:

Letras de muita virtude para trazerem consigo; which in a free interpretation means Letters of most virtue that you should bring with you.
Note this time are the crosses that are used as 'separators'; particularly crosses of Christ.
Also note the author says letters ... not initials.

I hope Ibrahiim tolerates my hijaking his thread, but i guess he enjoys this particular part.

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

And now, for those who have fun with talismanic writings, here is the contents of the blank page that preeceds the prologue of "Rules of the Knights of the Order of Christ".

The hand written paragraph says:

Letras de muita virtude para trazerem consigo; which in a free interpretation means Letters of most virtue that you should bring with you.
Note this time are the crosses that are used as 'separators'; particularly crosses of Christ.
Also note the author says letters ... not initials.

I hope Ibrahiim tolerates my hijaking his thread, but i guess he enjoys this particular part.

.


Absolutely not a problem in fact I consider this a masterclass. My problem is that there are two sword blades to consider and in the case of one it appears as Latin whereas the blade of #1 is in my view either Hebrew or something related like Old Church Slavonic ...which is linked. I see no Latin in the inscription at #1 and whereas I am delighted to learn the amazing details you have uncovered ...and I have to say I have never seen it noted on these pages before thus it is a first for library !!...and most eloquently presented...

It is apparent that this is a field of study completely missed by most people as is the other aspect of this thread (or one of them) which is the Talismanic nature of the pommel face showing the gridded format common in Arabian artefacts based on the figure five (itself Talismanic) ..

I think that there is a lot of scope to either continue the discussion as you have picked it up...or to open under another thread the intracacies of the amazing subject in its own right...and perhaps for someone to further split the thread into its other part viz;Talismanic signs in General or as you may advise. I spent a few days considering the Talismanic aspects of various items in this sector and the possibilities are huge. The 6 pointed star is monumental in its own right and there are massive texts on such items as Silver Talisman Rings throughout Africa. Trying to focus on sword blade Talismans is virtually impossible so the subjects may have to relocate to the Miscellaneous section perhaps?

On a technicality it could go to the European as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&highlight=blade+marks



Note; Several hours may be required for readers to absorb the details on Medieval Inscriptions on European Swords however it is well worth a glance. Please see http://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:289664/FULLTEXT01.pdf

Citation for the original published paper (version of record):
Wagner, T., Worley, J., Holst Blennow, A., Beckholmen, G. (2009)
Medieval Christian invocation inscriptions on sword blades.
Waffen- und Kostümkunde, 51(1): 11-52


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ian]

Ibrahiim noted, "On a technicality it could go to the European [Forum] as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=blade+marks (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&highlight=blade+marks)

I think both fora would be interested. Perhaps a joint posting (if that is possible). East meets West, or vice versa.

Ibrahiim, you and Fernando should decide where you want to start the new thread. Fernando has the necessary superpowers to move things around if necessary.

Ian.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim noted, "On a technicality it could go to the European [Forum] as European/Latin translations inscribed on swords etc but for sure it is a very important subject for these pages. On the other hand it may fit into the broader aspects of Jims famous thread on Sword Blade Marks at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=blade+marks (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&highlight=blade+marks)

I think both fora would be interested. Perhaps a joint posting (if that is possible). East meets West, or vice versa.

Ibrahiim, you and Fernando should decide where you want to start the new thread. Fernando has the necessary superpowers to move things around if necessary.

Ian.

Thanks Ian, If I may be a little clearer ...

1. Swords with Latin inscriptions, though there are some which occur on Indian Swords imported from Europe and a classic is at the Wallace as an example and I am sure there will be others around the globe; it is still unusual to find blades in the East with Latin inscriptions particularly in Arabia.( Naturally there will be those swords in the far east that arrived with the voyages of discovery etc but as for Arabia I do not count the odd one or two said to have Andrea Ferrera marks or copied Passau Wolf...etc and it would be quite wrong to attribute the swords shown at thread as being of original and honest construction..

The fact is that swords in Arabia generally have Arabic or Persian or Turkish inscriptions if they are inscribed or a particular mark moon or an incantation to God . The equation East meets West is difficult to engineer. (Trade blades, I believe, are best dealt with separately.)

On the subject of Talisman marks it is even more unlikely (I would say impossible ) as the religious or pre religious markers are so differently based. I think this subject also is in itself divided....since it evolved separately in the East and West....even though vague connections may exist the vast majority of such Talisman concepts are unrelated across the East West divide.
************************************************** ****************
2. There are documents on western calligraphy, short bible forms of script, secret inscriptions, runes, Gothic, Latin, Viking, (The Ulberft sword etc) which make for a study in their own right .. and most are very high level examinations. (Before anyone writes in to complain I am aware that we have a number of members who have the required scientific know how to take on these complex papers but I speak generally!)

Whilst I always advise students to get stuck into these references, I have to admit some are quite heavy going but by all means forum ought to have a go...noting that large portions of the material conclude that much of the Viking/Latin /Germanic inscriptions on blades are undecipherable and some marks were actually secret and known only to the owner of the Sword.

I would hate to advise anyone to study something which is in fact pulverisingly difficult even for a rocket scientist to handle. It is, however, really interesting to see these amazing notes and details as reported on by Fernando and I believe the examination as it stands is a great step forward for Forum ..and library is a better informed place.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So if you think this is difficult have a look at Harry Wagners http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20332 where The Smithsonian has a really difficult one to decipher.

The reference is playing it difficult thus here is the entire document without pictures...Quote"Help Us Decipher This Inscription

Visitors to Magna Carta: Law, Liberty, Legacy may have noticed that we have one or two objects on display, in addition to the many manuscripts and documents telling Magna Carta's 800-year-old story. One of those objects is a double-edged sword, found in the first section of the exhibition, on loan to the British Library from our friends at the British Museum.

The item in question was found in the River Witham, Lincolnshire, in July 1825, and was presented to the Royal Archaeological Institute by the registrar to the Bishop of Lincoln. It weighs 1.2 kg (2 lb 10 oz) and measures 964 mm (38 in.) in length and 165 mm (6½ in.) across the hilt; if struck with sufficient force, it could easily have sliced a man’s head in two.

BM-Sword
A double-edged sword, 13th century, possibly of German manufacture but discovered in England in the 19th century (British Museum 1858,1116.5): image courtesy of the British Museum

An intriguing feature of this sword is an as yet indecipherable inscription, found along one of its edges and inlaid in gold wire. It has been speculated that this is a religious invocation, since the language is unknown. Can you have a go at trying to decipher it for us? Here's what the inscription seems to read:

+NDXOXCHWDRGHDXORVI+

- In my opinion before even attempting this please have a look at the considerable variation unearthed by some quite astute observations and suggestions from Saxon through Maltese, Latin, Welsh and other alphabets...It really is interesting... and filled with clues...See more at: http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2015/08/help-us-decipher-this-inscription.html#sthash.Ot2vu7fe.dpuf

************************************************** **************


As a matter of interest we have at Forum an already examined particular reference from our own Library which on closer inspection yields the same sword type as at #1 with an interesting set of letters of which the first appears the same as our difficult clipped 5 without its top.

Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369&highlight=portuguese+swords and view the second photograph of#6

I thus conclude that the sword type is the same as #1 but that the combining of the #1 hilt is entirely 21st Century attempting to show the entire weapon as an earlier Omani Dancing Sword. The illusion is transparent. The second sword shows an equally European blade rehilted with an Omani Battle Sword Hilt . The same forger appears to have worked on these blades within the same time scale adding elements of Royal Hilting and an Omani scbbard to further cloud the issue..

This is in some ways rather unfortunate since the classic pommel on #1 is a valuable item in its own right whilst the combining of blades and swords in both cases hundreds of years out of sync are exceptionally unfortunate errors (if in fact forgers consider errors!!) despite the intriguing letters on the imported European blades.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Jim McDougall]

I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.

It is important to note that these kinds of letter combinations and groupings have remarkably long history, and in decipherable, seemingly coded groups of letters extend into Anglo-Saxon history on some seaxs found. They are known on Frankish and Viking swords well into medieval times. It is generally held these are acrostic in nature, though other types of arrangements are known as well. In many cases, various sacerdotal and invocative phrases have been somewhat decoded.

In Italy, the Caino makers and Picinino seem to have favored these incongruent letter groupings in varied form. They seem to be used in what is known as reductive where each group of letters reduces by one, and in another line they are regrouped in anagram type arrangement. This seems to eliminate acrostic possibility, but it is virtually unimaginable how these can be meant. These kinds of groupings of course became well used in the German blade decoration along with other spurious marks etc.

What has presented the greatest obstacle in the plausible revealing of the meaning of many of these letter combinations and groupings has been the factoring in of many occult, esoteric and magical features. In cases, such as with cabbalistic potential, there are often integrated sigils and devices in the linear letter groups in acrostic setting, as well as those used with numeric value. The very secret nature of these of course makes anything beyond speculative suggestions virtually invalid.

We can of course observe the character of the lettering, devices or sigils, as well as the context in the blade form and features, just as been done here.

I think it has been well established that there is a great deal of the use of older and often European blades in refurbished traditional dress in certain locations in Oman just as a number of other locations.

The refurbishing of ethnographic swords by remounting blades in traditional dress seems well known in most cultures. Blades are a valuable commodity, and especially if they are heirloom. In the case of Arabian swords, it does seem that traditional forms are important in cultural and status sense, much as are janbiyya and other edged weapons.
As long as these weapons are openly regarded as 'refurbished' using old blade and new mounts, there is no issue. If a sword is 'refurbished' and passed off as homogenous and of noted antiquity, it is a problem.

If a blade is combined with incongruent other vintage components, unless those are heirloom items along with blade, or these have combined traditional significance, it seems OK as long as the elements combined are represented as 'composite'.

Here we are involved in the study of swords or weapons in most cases from a historic content, and if a weapon is refurbished without proper notice in description, it defeats and compromises the value of the weapon historically. It is understandable that such weapons are valued traditionally and as appropriate status symbols, but they should be so described.

Having said all that, what is important in this thread, is the discussion of the blade in #1, the subject of the thread, as well as the apparently incongruent pommel, noted as not originally with this blade.

The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think that the investigative analysis that has evolved involving the blade which initiated this thread is fascinating, and it is truly impressive to see looks into various alphabets and characters in these mysterious letters.


The outstanding approach toward this inscription (in #1) is very insightful and helps a lot in perspective on these on blades. Whether we can find anything conclusive or not, the content of the factors brought into the discussion is fascinating and great to learn more!


Salaams Jim and thank you for you well timed analysis so far on this important subject. I was looking through library and found a reference at http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/f0013-could-rare-sword-have-belonged-to-ivan-the-terrible/ which again examines the possible meaning on the blade.

I personally prefer the wider meaning/theory behind the writing rather than the absolute meaning not least because of the time it takes to even begin to unravel the basics... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang..

Thanks again for your important input.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

... On another note I would rather see this thread over on the European as it rather belongs there.... which may sound a bit strange since the project at #1 was supposedly Omani or at least with an Omani Pommel and half a tang...
Let's then copy (better than move) this thread to the European section. Remember that future posts will not have a 'dual' effect, but will only fall into the forum they are directed to.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Let's then copy (better than move) this thread to the European section. Remember that future posts will not have a 'dual' effect, but will only fall into the forum they are directed to.


Ola Fernando... Great idea ...Look forward to that...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I thought this reference showed a similar blade to the marks shown on thread... Please see http://sword-site.com/thread/187/oakeshott-type-records-medieval-sword
:shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have a brilliant research paper for Forum to look at Please see http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:289664/FULLTEXT01.pdf where a small number of swords and inscriptions are compared. It is interesting that the letter IJ occurs in the alphabet illustrated...as IS

The Citation for the original published paper (version of record):
Wagner, T., Worley, J., Holst Blennow, A., Beckholmen, G. (2009)
Medieval Christian invocation inscriptions on sword blades.
Waffen- und Kostümkunde, 51(1): 11-52

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Dear all; If I may return the focus of the thread initially to #1
where A 5 I IJ IJ A is shown on one swordface.

The A is with a short accent on top and the crosspiece is either vee or tee shaped. It occurs at both ends of the script.

The 5 is without its top like the Hebrew letter Zayin. It could stand for the Sword of Jesus...

The I may infact not be a straight I as it appears to have a tiny line in its centre. It could be an F or an I.

The IJ IJ may be Hebrew letters. ....It could be IS

The final letter is another A.

It is not known which way to read this line... The whole thing could be a reference to a holy script or it may only be known as a secret code to the owner. Inn addition it could be wrongly struck and some letters could be upside down... It makes for an interesting code break...Any takers?? :confused:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi :confused: :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...The fact is ..that in any study of European Arms and Armour ...at some point in proceedings the serious research student must open the page on this particular strata of fascinating if a little brain bruising work...All European swords come from this stable... The student of Ethnographics runs into related work in Talisman blade marks, Viking, Runes, Latin, Roman, Anglo Saxon and other peculiar alphabets .... :confused:

In this thread I continue to look for the peculiar A with the funny top and vee shaped crossbar...and below here is the answer in part; Bavarian or Old German Script.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all... and ~

Interesting similarity in the peculiar A letter show up in Forum at #152 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&page=6&pp=30 :shrug: indicating the Toledo situation...

and at picture 60 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&page=7&pp=30

and at #204 on the Bergundian Halibard also at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453&page=7&pp=30

Following that, if I may reproduce the exact post as the late Michael who stated among his brilliant details on European Weapons the following...

Quote" The Gothic majuscule A mark no. 60 in Waldman's book stands, as I have pointed out several times, for the Bavarian weapons center of the city of Augsburg. In this case it is struck and brass-inlaid on an early 16th c. halberd formerly in Waldman's collection and sold by Christie's a few years ago.

For another Augsburg Gothic A mark on a 14th c. blade, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13589&highlight=Augsburg+Gothic+mark ''.Unquote.

************************************************** ************************************************** *********************

Are we looking at a sword from Augsberg? or is this only an example of the Majuscule A letter? I have to say it is interesting since the other capitals seem to be bracketted by an A at each end; perhaps indicating an Augsberg foundry...Could this be a birthmark?

In respect of this situation I reproduce this post by Jim McDougall on this subject and from the above thread as follows;

Quote" Michael, thank you so much for the kind words, and for the illustrations of the haquebut c.1600 with one of these majuscule 'A''s.

In going through "Waffenkunde" (W.Boeheim, 1890, p.678) an marking which is very much like the shape of this A with the crossbar atop and no center bar is shown as unidentified, but attributed to Augsburg 15th century. Thus, it seems that the character may have been known without the central rib as well and in Augsburg.

In Boeheim, other examples of these type A letters are seen with other initials and types of crossbar and serif, some attributed to 16th century makers or armourers such as Durer, Aldegrever and Glockendon all from various cities.

It seems that even among the Toledo and Madrid smiths a number of them of the 16th century used the letter A enclosed in cartouche of varying shapes, but often square, with one using the identical style A with V shape crossbar (listed in "Arms and Armour", A. Demmin, 1877, p.567). This one is shown to Alonzo de Caba, armourer. Another with extended bar top cap and drooping serifs at ends, straight center bar to Alonzo de Buena, of same period. There are a number of other A types with varying flourish, serif or structure.

While these obviously indicate the initial of the armourer, it was interesting to see the similarity in majascule style A to these German examples, suggesting the well known traffic in arms and armour commerce between these countries.

Returning to the more arcane, with the mysterious Westphalia tribunals previously mentioned, they had several little known coded alphabets, in which the diagonal lines with top bar and dropped serifs at the ends in the basic shape of the A sans crossbar......in one alphabet the letter 'L' is signified and in another the letter 'Y'. (Demmin, p.582).

So it would seem perhaps that while the letter A could signify Augsburg in the case of the stamp on the haquebut and other items, these stylized majascule letters with varying embellishments also may have been more widely used with different meanings in other parlances. There are many markings which reflect makers marks, with others being monograms of rulers of minor principalities, then of course the guild marks of various centers of arms production.

These are the mysteries that make the study of these blade markings so fascinating"! Unquote.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Majiscule letter A .

[fernando]

:o

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Majescule Letter A...Again ! :)

[fernando]

Where did you get this one, Ibrahiim ? ;)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Where did you get this one, Ibrahiim ? ;)

At what some people refer to as the Forum Resource but which I call Forum Library :)...at one of the references in the post above which also gives a further interesting thread to consider at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13589&highlight=augsburg+majuscule where at #22 it; the majuscule A, is examined most precisely.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To refocus for a moment on the project sword at #1 here is the script we are considering ...

[fernando]

I was conculting my books in order to establish some points referring to a large XIII century originated convent that exits in the town next to mine and, when i saw the illumination of the first page of the charter given to the convent by King Dom Manuel in 1516, i noticed this A with a funny top ... but with a sraight crossbar. It seems as we had part of this fashion over here ;).


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I was conculting my books in order to establish some points referring to a large XIII century originated convent that exits in the town next to mine and, when i saw the illumination of the first page of the charter given to the convent by King Dom Manuel in 1516, i noticed this A with a funny top ... but with a sraight crossbar. It seems as we had part of this fashion over here ;).


.


Certainly interesting since I believe we are looking at a Portuguese sword....despite the straight and not Vee shaped crossbar. The Majescule A form seems widespread.
At http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630&page=2&pp=30 there is a dated and similar Majiscule A though again with a straight top...and straight bar at #31...with the 1519 date clearly shown and noted....and a slightly different date on the same A at #34.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Please see..

http://www.gustavianum.uu.se/digitalAssets/203/203037_3medieval-christian-invocation-inscriptions-on-sword-blades.pdf

....where the paper shows the variety of potential combinations; for example a mixed Latin, Roman, Greek puzzle with some letters reversed or upturned. The combination is not only illogical but randomly done and could even be at the discretion of the owner or maker and be loaded therefor with the possibility of a mistake; deliberate or otherwise. It is perhaps for this reason that museums have put out a general distress call through the media in an attempt to crack the codes...which aren't codes at all...since they are not logical.

The codebreaker thus has a number of codebooks to run with including all of the usual alphabets ....runes ...religious books... and sayings of the day...somewhere around the 13th Century. In addition code may also mean Talismanic numerical progression so the ability to reckon on that peculiar mathematical expertise is vital.

It is important that ethnographic enthusiasts and researchers view how these shorthand devices stepped from the medieval period into the modern era on European blades. (but don't write in ...I know there are some on Eastern blades as well)...I should say mainly on European blades! :)

What I find amazing still is the habit or tradition many centuries ago of casting ones favourite sword into the deepest pool..a favoured way, perhaps, of returning ones sword to the underworld as was the famous mythical sword in the legendary Excalibur.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

On revisiting this problem. It seems this puzzle may be around for a very long time, hence, a brief look at https://linguisticator.com/a-medievalists-take-on-the-mystery-sword-inscription/ could be useful. Not only could the letters be a mixture of several languages but it could be read from the right or left...No one knows.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug:

[Victrix]

The symbols on the blade don't look like West European letters of the alphabet to me at all. Neither does it look like Hebrew. Could it be Ge'ez? Most likely they are talismanic symbols meant to bring luck to the user and may not necessarily mean anything but are based in superstitious beliefs. The cross as part of the decorations suggests the blade is originally from a Christian country. I have seen hussar sabres with these talismanic symbols and haven't felt tempted to try to interpret them. Some of these sabres may have been made by gypsies and could even be marked with Roma symbols.

[Helleri]

I've found this site (http://www.omniglot.com/index.htm) to be very useful in looking up and comparing systems of writing.

[Jim McDougall]

It is good to see this thread back, and the focus on possible identification of the sword blade. As with so many ethnographic situations blades such as this one, typically European, whether trade or otherwise acquired, are often remounted many times in their working lives. Apparently there were many caches of blades in Bedouin holdings which were eventually filtered into locations in Arabia where they were remounted into swords for various situations.

This blade, with its most curious lettered inscription, appears to be a 17th century European arming sword blade as we have discussed. The 'cross' is a device often termed the 'anchor' which is found at the end of the fuller or often inscribed panel at its termination. While this one seems quite rudimentary, these are often more complex with numerous cross bars.

As we have seen, it seems fruitless to try to determine the origin of these characters, which appear to be assembled from various sources and perhaps alphabets. In these times and earlier, it was quite common to have various mottos, phrases and invocations placed in acrostic form on blades. In Italy there are variations of these kinds of inscriptions which seem like entirely unintelligible gibberish. The same kinds of inscriptions occur in even earlier times on blades found in England with what are termed 'magical' inscriptions.

In many cases, often on Spanish blades, there are magical symbols interpolated with otherwise regular lettering, and we can surmise that such practice may have applied to these kinds of acrostics. Often they were disguised religious invocations or talismanic devices. In many cases these characters are of numerical rather than alphabetic value, and numbers in magic are assigned particular meanings and values. For example the numbers on many blades such as 1441; 1414 and others are often perceived as dates, but are actually magic combinations.

On the blades of East European swords as mentioned, there were such talismanic wordings often with curious symbols and devices, many of these known as the 'Transylvania knot', though not literally a tied cord or knot.
I have had swords with 'Hungarian' blades with such 'wording' which when I tried to have translated, were simply unintelligible groupings of letters.

With the hussar sabres noted, actually the 'Gypsies' were responsible for certain decoration of swords and they did metalwork particularly on scabbards and hilts, but they did not produce swords. In most research concerning symbols on these East European swords, and contact with Gypsy sources, none I found were having to do with their unique language nor symbolism. It was a good thought though:) as I felt at the time.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The symbols on the blade don't look like West European letters of the alphabet to me at all. Neither does it look like Hebrew. Could it be Ge'ez? Most likely they are talismanic symbols meant to bring luck to the user and may not necessarily mean anything but are based in superstitious beliefs. The cross as part of the decorations suggests the blade is originally from a Christian country. I have seen hussar sabres with these talismanic symbols and haven't felt tempted to try to interpret them. Some of these sabres may have been made by gypsies and could even be marked with Roma symbols.


Salaams Victrix, Whilst to some it may seem obvious that a cross implies a religious context however on many ancient weapons fished from lakes and rivers across Europe the cross is the only obvious recognisable coded inscription amongst often a line of unrecognisable capitals described as feudal religious shorthand !!...(of no known origin). For a balanced view of this please see http://blog.world-mysteries.com/strange-artifacts/encoded-crusaders-sword/ and note how the author has done just as you suggest and has focussed on the cross format... This is usually the Jerusalam Cross with tee shaped ends. Where a pommel exists there may be an etched similar cross done after the shock of battle by the owner..And so the cross is something we can be safely confident about...the rest is as yet undiscovered however...Note that letters do not have to be from the same alphabet !! and they may be numbers.

On further reflection I note that the cross on the project sword is not actually the Jerusalem Cross but a variant ... The Forked Cross. It may illustrate a similar provenance and is anyway another of the heraldic crosses..

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, we crossed posts!!! but spot on in reading yours!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

To revise what we have ~ and welcome Jim on our crossing posts!!!

There appears to be two Majescule A forms one at each end of the line . Are the letters between the A's a date? :shrug: It is tempting to suggest as I did at #88 earlier that the Majiscule A illustrates Augsberg.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I've found this site (http://www.omniglot.com/index.htm) to be very useful in looking up and comparing systems of writing.


Salaams Helleri, It gets complicated as we know that even alphabets were mixed up ...The entire blade script may be a code known only to the owner..and the meanings of scripts some of which may be local religious unknown entities may never be unraveled. The sword by the way carries an Oman hilt possibly refitted relatively recently and well after swords were used in battle. My suspicion is that the blade may be Portuguese although I am not certain. :shrug:

[Victrix]

Salaams Victrix, Whilst to some it may seem obvious that a cross implies a religious context however on many ancient weapons fished from lakes and rivers across Europe the cross is the only obvious recognisable coded inscription amongst often a line of unrecognisable capitals described as feudal religious shorthand !!...(of no known origin). For a balanced view of this please see http://blog.world-mysteries.com/strange-artifacts/encoded-crusaders-sword/ and note how the author has done just as you suggest and has focussed on the cross format... This is usually the Jerusalam Cross with tee shaped ends. Where a pommel exists there may be an etched similar cross done after the shock of battle by the owner..And so the cross is something we can be safely confident about...the rest is as yet undiscovered however...Note that letters do not have to be from the same alphabet !! and they may be numbers.

On further reflection I note that the cross on the project sword is not actually the Jerusalem Cross but a variant ... The Forked Cross. It may illustrate a similar provenance and is anyway another of the heraldic crosses..

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I love the links to documents you have posted on this thread concerning interpreting inscriptions on medieaval swords. It has been very interesting reading! Also I like the Arn movie which is mentioned in the last document. History is truly fascinating... The sword which you are investigating is clearly very different from the medieaval knight swords. If you are decoding something you obviously have to know what symbols you are dealing with, and this particular time period is tricky because of the popularity of occult superstitions (akin to Sufist mysticism?). That's why I wonder if it's worth the effort? Following your comments I did a quick search on the cross symbol and found this (see photo below) in Symbols: Encyclopedia of Western Signs and Ideograms by Carl G. Liungman. The symbols could even be linked to alchemy (!). Also, the Augsburg symbol you refer to is different to the symbol on the sword which has an asymmetric horizontal bar at the top (only on the left side).

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim thank you for the kind note!! and I agree in thanking you for the interesting material. That article you linked has been most helpful for some time now in the long standing quest in studying these blade markings and inscriptions. It is most encouraging to see others join in with looking into the history and fascinating esoterica often held in the secrets these elements hold.



Here I especially would like to note the references to the legendary sword Excalibur of the Arthurian romances, and its association with the 'Lady of the Lake'. Indeed this is reflective of certain conventions of the powerful mystique of swords in these times, and throughout history. The key element noted in this respect is that Excalibur did carry blade inscriptions, which seem to vary in versions of these tales. It is interesting to compare the fact that it was then deposited in the lake for future events of importance.
We do not know what actual inscriptions were emplaced, and these varied with authors. One notion suggested that the term 'cut steel' was used, much in the manner of the 'Eisenhauer' term used on German blades of the 19thc.

We turn to the much heralded 'River Witham' swords, two swords which were found in this English river in the mid 19th c. and both bear mysterious inscriptions labeled as 'magical' which still defy decryption .
These swords , while both with such inscriptions, are from periods centuries apart, suggesting that they were either deposited or lost in these close locations at different times. The question of course is compelling....could these swords, carrying deeply cryptic magical imbuement, have been deposited in this romantic knightly manner of Arthurian legend?

While our blade in discussion is obviously not a knightly sword, but an arming blade of probably 17th century, we must remember that these traditions, imbuements and commemorations were very much part and parcel of characteristic blade decoration and motif even then.

I would point out here that the very act of 'decoding' is first determining exactly what 'code' is being examined. The symbols, glyphs and devices of religious orientation, magical and various occult and talismanic forms, and linguistic characters including gemetria are often entwined as previously noted.
It must be remembered that these times, into much later, illiteracy was primarily the norm, of course with lack of formal education or any sort of informative media to the population at large. With this, superstition and religiously oriented fear prevailed. This accounts well for the importance of symbols and devices in many aspects, which also pertains to these kinds of blade decoration.
Alchemy in these times was not 'science' or 'chemistry', it was very much occultism and magic, so of course the symbols were shared.

Another factor which is firmly emplaced in the mysteries of blade inscriptions and markings which does not fall into the Christian invocations and knightly category are those involving cabalistic mysticism and symbols.
However, we have seen that in many cases, such sigils and glyphs may transcend into other contexts as many were shared or remarkably similar.

Yet another denominator in sword blade markings, are those using the elements of these categories in degree, and or, the acrostic methods described earlier, by various secret groups, orders or organizations.
I have seen other sword blades, and items such as helmets etc. with letter/ character groups in similar number (around 5) and again, these have been attempted to decipher with Latin words and phrases etc. to no avail.

It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about:)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I love the links to documents you have posted on this thread concerning interpreting inscriptions on medieaval swords. It has been very interesting reading! Also I like the Arn movie which is mentioned in the last document. History is truly fascinating... The sword which you are investigating is clearly very different from the medieaval knight swords. If you are decoding something you obviously have to know what symbols you are dealing with, and this particular time period is tricky because of the popularity of occult superstitions (akin to Sufist mysticism?). That's why I wonder if it's worth the effort? Following your comments I did a quick search on the cross symbol and found this (see photo below) in Symbols: Encyclopedia of Western Signs and Ideograms by Carl G. Liungman. The symbols could even be linked to alchemy (!). Also, the Augsburg symbol you refer to is different to the symbol on the sword which has an asymmetric horizontal bar at the top (only on the left side).

Salaams Victrix, and thanks for the detail you include. I agree the Majescule in my post is not the right one to match the Augsberg...so I sideline that. On the idea of trying to discover the code I think that while you are probably right in that finding an answer may take forever I think giving it a go now and again is perhaps the best way to continue looking in on this important subject and hoping that some future student may indeed crack it...Having it on Library is part of the battle and your additional notes are a great help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim thank you for the kind note!! and I agree in thanking you for the interesting material. That article you linked has been most helpful for some time now in the long standing quest in studying these blade markings and inscriptions. It is most encouraging to see others join in with looking into the history and fascinating esoterica often held in the secrets these elements hold.



Here I especially would like to note the references to the legendary sword Excalibur of the Arthurian romances, and its association with the 'Lady of the Lake'. Indeed this is reflective of certain conventions of the powerful mystique of swords in these times, and throughout history. The key element noted in this respect is that Excalibur did carry blade inscriptions, which seem to vary in versions of these tales. It is interesting to compare the fact that it was then deposited in the lake for future events of importance.
We do not know what actual inscriptions were emplaced, and these varied with authors. One notion suggested that the term 'cut steel' was used, much in the manner of the 'Eisenhauer' term used on German blades of the 19thc.

We turn to the much heralded 'River Witham' swords, two swords which were found in this English river in the mid 19th c. and both bear mysterious inscriptions labeled as 'magical' which still defy decryption .
These swords , while both with such inscriptions, are from periods centuries apart, suggesting that they were either deposited or lost in these close locations at different times. The question of course is compelling....could these swords, carrying deeply cryptic magical imbuement, have been deposited in this romantic knightly manner of Arthurian legend?

While our blade in discussion is obviously not a knightly sword, but an arming blade of probably 17th century, we must remember that these traditions, imbuements and commemorations were very much part and parcel of characteristic blade decoration and motif even then.

I would point out here that the very act of 'decoding' is first determining exactly what 'code' is being examined. The symbols, glyphs and devices of religious orientation, magical and various occult and talismanic forms, and linguistic characters including gemetria are often entwined as previously noted.
It must be remembered that these times, into much later, illiteracy was primarily the norm, of course with lack of formal education or any sort of informative media to the population at large. With this, superstition and religiously oriented fear prevailed. This accounts well for the importance of symbols and devices in many aspects, which also pertains to these kinds of blade decoration.
Alchemy in these times was not 'science' or 'chemistry', it was very much occultism and magic, so of course the symbols were shared.

Another factor which is firmly emplaced in the mysteries of blade inscriptions and markings which does not fall into the Christian invocations and knightly category are those involving cabalistic mysticism and symbols.
However, we have seen that in many cases, such sigils and glyphs may transcend into other contexts as many were shared or remarkably similar.

Yet another denominator in sword blade markings, are those using the elements of these categories in degree, and or, the acrostic methods described earlier, by various secret groups, orders or organizations.
I have seen other sword blades, and items such as helmets etc. with letter/ character groups in similar number (around 5) and again, these have been attempted to decipher with Latin words and phrases etc. to no avail.

It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about:)

Salaams Jim, and thank you for your post which is most encouraging...I draw Forum attention to your last line Quote" It may be impossible to determine the explanation for this curious inscription, but as we continue to try, we learn, and that is what we're about."Unquote. Absolutely Jim and thanks again...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

...http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4369

Food for thought is abundant at the above link...It should be considered that the project sword (The Odd Sword) carries a much later Omani pommel.... blistered onto a much older blade. Indeed the actual hilt may be more like the above link. I therefor return to look at Portuguese examples...where available.

[Victrix]

Salaams Victrix, and thanks for the detail you include. I agree the Majescule in my post is not the right one to match the Augsberg...so I sideline that. On the idea of trying to discover the code I think that while you are probably right in that finding an answer may take forever I think giving it a go now and again is perhaps the best way to continue looking in on this important subject and hoping that some future student may indeed crack it...Having it on Library is part of the battle and your additional notes are a great help.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaam Ibrahiim,

I can understand your curiosity with this blade. It has a certain lustre which made me wonder if it's not made from silver, and then the symbols which look like they came from a sorcerer. Maybe one day the riddle will reveal itself.

Al Ghouti

[Helleri]

Salaams Helleri, It gets complicated as we know that even alphabets were mixed up ...The entire blade script may be a code known only to the owner..and the meanings of scripts some of which may be local religious unknown entities may never be unraveled. The sword by the way carries an Oman hilt possibly refitted relatively recently and well after swords were used in battle. My suspicion is that the blade may be Portuguese although I am not certain. :shrug:

It's still useful. I've used it several dozen times to identify characters I don't recognize. No one is going to be translating anything that is at all nuanced with it. But it's good place to start to get some ideas of what one is looking at when one has no ideas. Another good one is symbols.com (which has actually expanded to a lot more than just symbols now).