Keris Coteng

[maxbliss888]

Coteng

Can anyone enlighten how old is the Keris?

[maxbliss888]

More photos

[maxbliss888]

Before and after polish

[David]

Nice looking keris coteng dress Max. I must admit that keris from this area are not my strong suit, but i do recognize this as being a good old example of this rather rare form. I will leave it to someone better versed in this area to try to pinpoint a date for you, but it has always been my impression (perhaps wrongly so) that the coteng was a pre-cursor to the tajong hilt style. Therefore i would imagine that old versions of it (as opposed to ones recreated in contemporary times) should have a reasonable amount of age. Of course, you don't show us the blade here which could be older than this dress, but if i had to guess i would probably place this at least as old as late 18th to early 19th century. :shrug:

[maxbliss888]

Hi David!

Enclosed photo of the Keris before cleaning

[maxbliss888]

Another Coteng

[maxbliss888]

Content 3

[maxbliss888]

Coteng1

[maxbliss888]

The various sizes

[maxbliss888]

More photos

[Sajen]

More photos

OMG, from where you obtain all the Cotengs? I looking since years for a Coteng for my own collection. Great colletion!

Regards,
Detlef

[maxbliss888]

Thanks.

I am currently working and staying in Thailand which made it easier to get in touch with these.

[maxbliss888]

I have thought that the length of the Coteng is often short. However, I was wrong as there are some longer one...

[maxbliss888]

Close up

[maxbliss888]

I was told that the wooden Coteng Hulu are older then the silver one. Any comments?

[maxbliss888]

This is another example..

[Sajen]

I think that the wooden ones can be old as silver ones, you will have by both newer and older ones and think that it is mainly the form where you can see the age of the hilt.
Attached is my Coteng hilt, I think that this is an old form.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

I was told that the wooden Coteng Hulu are older then the silver one. Any comments?
This is not really my area of keris study, but this hilt you show in post #15 looks closer to the tajong form than the coteng form. There is probably some cross-over somewhere. Perhaps some of our Malay collectors will chime in on this.

[Sajen]

This is not really my area of keris study, but this hilt you show in post #15 looks closer to the tajong form than the coteng form. There is probably some cross-over somewhere. Perhaps some of our Malay collectors will chime in on this.

Hello David,

a tajong hilt would have a beard, the shown hilt don't has one so I think that it is indeed a coteng hilt but a later one IMO.

Regards,
Detlef

[maxbliss888]

More close up

[maxbliss888]

Another close up photos for sharing

[David]

Max, for a guy who only just discovered keris and has only recently taken up the "hobby" you sure do seem to have collected a fairly large amount of relatively rare keris forms is a rather short period of time. Given your neophyte status, how do you choose these keris for your collection? Do you have someone to help guide your purchases? :)

[maxbliss888]

Hi David,

I am new to the hobby of vintage Keris and I was collecting mainly vintage watches before. I come across the Keris by chance and i find myself asking the question why I have no knowledge of the Keris around me even though I am an Asian living in Asia?

My plan originally is to only focus on Keris from Thailand (since I am currently working and staying in Thailand). Being able to move around the countries has allowed me the opportunities to explore the small regions and towns in search of these. As I am not familiar with the age of the Old vintage Keris, I will have to rely on a few Thai that I have known to help identify. As there are so many types of Keris from the region and the complexities, I though it will be a good idea just to focus on the Tajjong and Coteng...plus the fact that cash is limited and I cannot buy everything... :) :)

My journey of collecting Keris has been an interesting one especially the waiting period from seeing a photos of the Keris to touching the actual plus exploration of the country.

Even though these Thai Keris are from the Southern Thai, I have seen a few in the Northern Chiangmai region as well.

Thanks for the forum help in enlightening and knowledege sharing

[maxbliss888]

Some shots ..

[maxbliss888]

Coteng from Southern Thailand

[David]

One thing i have to say, strictly from a personal perspective, is that while this dress form is attractive and exotic i have always found the blades they contain within rather disappointing. My personal take on the keris and keris collecting is that it is the blade that is the heart and soul of the keris. If the blade doesn't grab me no amount of fancy dress is enough to draw me to it for very long. Has anyone seen examples of the coteng form that contain any blades of particular quality? :shrug:

[Rick]

There may be one somewhere in this hoard of kerises Max has showered us with, but he seems reluctant to show us any close-ups of their blades . :confused:

[maxbliss888]

I like the history and authenticity of vintage Keris. As many of these Keris have been passed down by generations in harsh physical environment, I reckon that that's how some of the Keris ended up,...

Photo of close up

[maxbliss888]

Sorry about the photo quality as thee are limitation on the size of photos and I have to compressed it in order to load it up....

Not sure why sometimes I can post a bigger size photo and sometimes it get smaller..

[maxbliss888]

One thing i have to say, strictly from a personal perspective, is that while this dress form is attractive and exotic i have always found the blades they contain within rather disappointing. My personal take on the keris and keris collecting is that it is the blade that is the heart and soul of the keris. If the blade doesn't grab me no amount of fancy dress is enough to draw me to it for very long. Has anyone seen examples of the coteng form that contain any blades of particular quality? :shrug:

Yes, somehow, the blade in the Coteng seems to be disappointing then the other Keris. However, it is also a challenge to be able to find these antiques keris in excellent conditions. Moreover, IMHO, the attractiveness of the Coteng lies in its Hulu design.. Versus the other keris...

[maxbliss888]

Close up

[maxbliss888]

Better photo I hope

[Rick]

Much better .
Thanks !

[maxbliss888]

Met a fellow collector of Coteng from Thailand..

[maxbliss888]

Closer view

[maxbliss888]

Coteng

[maxbliss888]

Hope you like the photo showing different Coteng in different length

[maxbliss888]

Showing Coteng

[maxbliss888]

I know many collectors here prefers to have strong blades and strong Keris.

Please bear with me. It seems that there are differences in the Coteng carvings as seen below. I was told that besides Wooden hilt, silver holt, there is also Coteng hilt made in Brass. Anyone seen Coteng hilt using other materials?

[maxbliss888]

i have spoken with fellow Thai Keris collectors and they have confirmed that vintage Coteng comes mainly from Yala, Songkla or Narathiwat. However, I was told that one would not be able to see them so often in these cities now.

Another question that I have asked is with regards to why most Coteng is relatively shorter compare with the Longer Tajong and it seems is the result of the preferences from the region as those who prefer Coteng prefer it to be discreet. I have asked further why the conditions of the Coteng is not as well kept as the other Keris and the answer is that these Cotengs were used during their days and were not merely display Keris...

Just wanted to share what I have heard...

[BluErf]

Good authentic cotengs! Glad you went to the right dealer and bought the right stuff. Well done!

The age of these kerises are very difficult to ascertain. They are probably pre-20th century, but even then, hard to be sure.

I have the idea that silver covered coteng are generally younger than the old plainer wooden ones. Tajongs and cotengs are related, and at some point shared a common ancestor. However, they evolved along their own paths and became distinct subforms. Hence, nit all cotengs are older than every tajong you see.

In terms of upper limits on age, the earliest coteng/tajong specimens found are probably around 2-300yrs old. So the proto-coteng probably came to the north Malay peninsula region around 16th-17th century. That's just theory though.

[maxbliss888]

The Tajong are also getting harder to find here in Thailand as many have restored new handles.

Have you travelled to Trengganu? Are there many antique Tajong or Coteng there?

[BluErf]

Good ones are mostly in private collections. Mediocre ones for sale can still be found, but even then, they are getting harder to get and expensive.

[maxbliss888]

Another Coteng to share..

[maxbliss888]

There are many variations of Coteng. This example of Coteng has a sharper beak compare to the earlier..

[rasdan]

Does anybody know the purpose of keris coteng?

Everyday weapon use, court use, wedding keris or pusaka?

[maxbliss888]

ı ʂ℘ơƙɛ ῳıɬɧ ą ʄɛῳ ƈơƖƖɛƈɬơཞs from Thailand, they have confirmed that these Coteng they found in the homes of the original owners were used by their ancestors...

[maxbliss888]

This Coteng has a straight blade..For those who prefers a stronger blade..

[maxbliss888]

Day light photo

[maxbliss888]

Has any one seen this Coteng wooden handle? It looks like a Tajong but it's a Coteng

[Sajen]

Has any one seen this Coteng wooden handle? It looks like a Tajong but it's a Coteng

Very nice Coteng handle, maybe a transition piece. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[maxbliss888]

A fellow collector's Coteng

[kai]

Hello Max,

Has any one seen this Coteng wooden handle? It looks like a Tajong but it's a Coteng
To me this looks like a nice, probably early hulu Tajong: while really small, it does have a ridge below its chin which clearly represents a beard despite being smaller than usual (as compared with typical hulu Tajong).

AFAIK, hulu Coteng never have a beard and the typical flat head. The hilt you show has a considerably heavier head (again like typical hulu Tajong).

What is the reasoning of your local contacts? (Assuming they favor the classification of this hilt as hulu Coteng?)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Max,

Thanks for posting all these keris Coteng (from your and other collections) for future reference!

For those who prefers a stronger blade..
Some really neat examples, congrats!

Regards,
Kai

[maxbliss888]

Hello Max,


To me this looks like a nice, probably early hulu Tajong: while really small, it does have a ridge below its chin which clearly represents a beard despite being smaller than usual (as compared with typical hulu Tajong).

AFAIK, hulu Coteng never have a beard and the typical flat head. The hilt you show has a considerably heavier head (again like typical hulu Tajong).

What is the reasoning of your local contacts? (Assuming they favor the classification of this hilt as hulu Coteng?)

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for your input.

The classification between Tajong and Coteng is often blurred here in this instance, which is why I thought it will be good to share with fellow collectors here. I have thought that since Thailand is the place for Tajong and Coteng, there will be opportunities to see more of these, but it Its not the case...

Hope you all enjoy the photos...

[maxbliss888]

A few Coteng to share...

[BluErf]

Has any one seen this Coteng wooden handle? It looks like a Tajong but it's a Coteng

This would normally be classified as a tajong. The form is closer to a mid-late period tajong.

It has a boxier form, and a rudimentary beard, from the looks of the photo.

A "kampung"" quality hilt, which is still nice, but not exactly an archetype form to do deep analysis on.

[maxbliss888]

A friend's Coteng

[maxbliss888]

This would normally be classified as a tajong. The form is closer to a mid-late period tajong.

It has a boxier form, and a rudimentary beard, from the looks of the photo.

A "kampung"" quality hilt, which is still nice, but not exactly an archetype form to do deep analysis on.

Thanks..

First time I heard the term Kampung quality hilt... : ı thought all Keris are made in some kampong somewhere during the ancient days...

[BluErf]

I meant good enough to wear around in the kampung, but not fine enough for the higher social strata. Sorry, this sounds politically incorrect, but that's the way art is. The centre of wealth and political power breeds high excellence in artistic expression which form the pinnacles of art that ordinary folks copy, emulate and aspire to own/consume. Like all facsimiles, definition is lost in the process.

[maxbliss888]

I meant good enough to wear around in the kampung, but not fine enough for the higher social strata. Sorry, this sounds politically incorrect, but that's the way art is. The centre of wealth and political power breeds high excellence in artistic expression which form the pinnacles of art that ordinary folks copy, emulate and aspire to own/consume. Like all facsimiles, definition is lost in the process.

If this is the case, this old one will not make it to higher social strata as well...

My guess is that it depends on which angle you prefer to see it. Keris as a weapon or Keris as a status symbol...

[BluErf]

Yes, indeed.

To be even more provocative, some kerises are not good enough for the social higher strata, and at the same time, they make poor weapons too. So what do we make of these kerises? :)

"Old" not equals "good" or "bad"
"New" not equals "bad" or "good"
Likewise for "simple" and "complex"

But I think we have digressed a bit frm the original point I wanted to make, but I suspect was not conveyed adequately - that a "kampung" quality hilt does not adhere very strictly to archetypal forms. You get all sorts of variations and unusual features. From my experience, it is usually a futile exercise trying to classify these examples definitively. Sometimes, they are just amalgamations of influences and even the whims and fancies of the maker.

So this is to be read in relation to your question/statement - this looks like a tajong, but is actually a coteng.

The first rule of collecting is to collect what you like. Happy learning about the keris, and then collecting it! :)

[maxbliss888]

Another of ɱყ friend's Coteng

[maxbliss888]

Staying in Thailand has allowed me to build a small network and I have managed to get to know more Keris collectors

[maxbliss888]

Another collector's Keris

[BluErf]

Another of ɱყ friend's Coteng

Excellent pieces these 3! Tks for sharing. It's difficult to see pieces of these calibre.

[BluErf]

Another collector's Keris

These two are very good too. The sheath forms are top notch.

[BluErf]

I have a piece in my collection which has baffled me for a while. It has features of a tajong, like elaborate crown, beard, and a more abstract anthropomorphic form. But instead of a regular tajong sheath, it was affixed to a coteng style sheath which was larger than usual. The blade is what my group of collectors here in Sg refer to as "Chenok" style, after the place the form is said to originate from.

Can your collector friends share their opinion on the origin of this keris pls? Tks

[BluErf]

More pics, including one for comparison with other more regular coteng kerises.

[maxbliss888]

ŋıƈɛ ƈơƖƖɛƈɬıơŋ!

ʂųཞɛ! ῳıƖƖ check with them during our weekend gathering...

[maxbliss888]

I have a piece in my collection which has baffled me for a while. It has features of a tajong, like elaborate crown, beard, and a more abstract anthropomorphic form. But instead of a regular tajong sheath, it was affixed to a coteng style sheath which was larger than usual. The blade is what my group of collectors here in Sg refer to as "Chenok" style, after the place the form is said to originate from.

Can your collector friends share their opinion on the origin of this keris pls? Tks

Hi! I have shown the photo to a senior Keris collector and in his opinion, he feels that the the Hulu (handle) should be a Coteng one for the sheath. There are bigger Sheath Coteng.

Please see example..

[maxbliss888]

Here is another example of Coteng Shield

[maxbliss888]

The Coteng has various sizes and the rare one is as long as the Tajong..

[maxbliss888]

This is another collector collection. Good example to see the different Coteng with different length and sizes.

[maxbliss888]

This Coteng has been cleaned

[maxbliss888]

A gift from my Thai friend..

[maxbliss888]

ɬɧıʂ ıʂ another Coteng from my Thai Friend..

[maxbliss888]

Small gathering... ɧơ℘ɛ ყơu like it..

[BluErf]

Thanks! Can I clarify whether you meant the hilt was not correct for the sheath, or that the hilt is considered a coteng hilt?

[BluErf]

With so many specimens shown in this thread, it should go down as the Coteng thread to come to for a visual feast. Thanks for sharing them.

[maxbliss888]

Thanks! Can I clarify whether you meant the hilt was not correct for the sheath, or that the hilt is considered a coteng hilt?

Hi!

According to some serious collectors, as the hilt is made of wood, some tends to get damage over time and often got replaced. In this instance, it can be either be a situation where the Coteng hilt has been replaced with a Tajong. Alternatively, it may be a situation where a Tajong Keris has been matched with a Coteng shield. The suggestion from the collectors are either One quick way is to change the hilt or shield.

Cheers

[BluErf]

Ok, thanks for the clarification!

Another piece I'd like to ask about - this coteng came back from Europe. The sheath form is different frm most coteng we see. I associate this sheath form as an older form closer to the original coastal Javanese keris forms from which I think the coteng evolved. What does your collector friends think?

[maxbliss888]

Yes, it's the old Coteng shield...with the influence Javanese art cirebon.

[maxbliss888]

Yes, it's the old Coteng shield...with the influence Javanese art cirebon.


Please see below comparison

[Sajen]

Please see below comparison

Hello Max,

the scabbard on the right isn't a Cirebon one but a Coteng scabbard IMHO. Can you post a photo of both from the other side?

Regards,
Detlef

[maxbliss888]

Hi!

I am not saying that it's a Cirebon one but with Javanese influences..

[Sajen]

Hi!

I am not saying that it's a Cirebon one but with Javanese influences..

Hi, so it has been just a missunderstanding, soory! ;)

[maxbliss888]

No worries..

[maxbliss888]

Coteng

[BluErf]

Yes, it's the old Coteng shield...with the influence Javanese art cirebon.

Thanks Francis, for affirming my thinking. The hilt on this coteng has sone really sublime carvings. The form is also extra "rounded". Very pleasing piece.

[BluErf]

Please see below comparison

Beautiful sheath!

[maxbliss888]

Nice pair from a collector

[maxbliss888]

My friends Keris

[Sajen]

My friends Keris

Great pieces, lucky owner! ;) Can we see the blades?

Regards,
Detlef

[maxbliss888]

I think I must have seen 80% of the Coteng in Thailand from my interaction with the fellow Thai collectors. Many of the Thai collectors are not selling their Coteng and Keris as these antique ones are hard to find now.

Photos

[maxbliss888]

Another collector's Coteng

[Jean]

Thanks Max. From my Indonesian kris collector's perspective, the beauty of these krisses is the hilt and the scabbard to a lesser degree but the blades are not very impressive . :)
Regards

[maxbliss888]

I think the beauty of the Coteng lies in its history and the legacy of the Patanni Sultanate, that is no longer around.

Given then fact that the 4 Northern Malay states are now part of Thailand after British decision in 1909, with the integration and assimilation into the Thai culture and religion, many of the old traditions are slowly fading away. In fact, the Coteng Keris has become so rare that one hardly see it in the market and only in the collectors hands. Keris has become a lost art in Southern Thailand.

For those who love the nice blade, my guess is that the Keris from Indonesia may be a better option. For me, since I am working and staying in Thailand, my love for the Coteng lies in the fact that it is Thailand specific keris plus not many of these survive given the harsh environment here. Moreover, those Keris that I see are with collectors or families who keep them as family heirloom and heritage.

Just my 2 cents..

[Jean]

Yes Max, I fully understand your cultural point of view, mine was purely based on aesthetics and quality of craftsmanship, and it is just a personal opinion... Very interesting thread and reference anyway, many thanks!
Which are the 3 other Northern Malay states now part of Thailand? :)
Regards

[maxbliss888]

Yes Max, I fully understand your cultural point of view, mine was purely based on aesthetics and quality of craftsmanship, and it is just a personal opinion... Very interesting thread and reference anyway, many thanks!
Which are the 3 other Northern Malay states now part of Thailand? :)
Regards

Narathiwat, Pattani and Yala and parts of Songkhla. With the exception of Songkhla, many Thai classified the other 3 regions as dangerous owing to the occasional bombing.

I have just visited Songkhla and didn't see any Keris out in the open. One has to see via the collectors. I have spent months getting in contacts with many collectors and the photos above are almost the maximum I could see from the various friends and collectors. Owing to the assimilation into the Thai culture, not many of the tradition survive.

My guess is that the culture is still alive in some part of Indonesia and Malaysia. I went to Batam Indonesia and couldn't find any keris there too...

[Nathaniel]

Wow, maxbliss888, thank you for sharing these wonderful pictures and your experiences. This is a wonderful thread showing the diversity of Krit Malayeu often not seen outside of Thailand. What a treat! That is wonderful you have made these connections. Khorb Khun Krap :)

[Nathaniel]

Just something of interest...I took a picture of this Thai military insignia a few years back...I think the type pictured looks like a Tajong style.

[maxbliss888]

Just something of interest...I took a picture of this Thai military insignia a few years back...I think the type pictured looks like a Tajong style.

Yes, it looks like the Tajong Keris. : )

[Green]

i come from kota baru kelantan malaysia which is just 40 km from sungai kolok town in the southern thailand province of narathiwat. My dialect, culture and food are almost identical to the southern malay thais but sadly with the separation of the 3 southern province of thailand with my state and country our culture has become further and further apart.

with regards to keris, the keris making culture and collection still survives in my state but there are very few good empus/pandai besi/keris makers around now and all they do is just making copies of existing styles particularly pandai saras and malelas.

[maxbliss888]

Hi!

I come into contact with the Keris by accident as I was helping a Mainland China tourist girl translates when she wants to buy a Keris for her husband. It surprised me that a Mainland Chinese from so far away is keen on a Keris From SE Asia, which aroused my curiosity and later understanding on the keris.

Really love the keris as well as my weekly get together with fellow Thai collectors...

[Henk]

Green, I think if you could place some pictures of the keris made in your state, although they are copies and new ones, would satisfy our curiousity and give us an idea of the quality of these craftsmen.

[Green]

Henk ;

Here are 3 examples from my collection. The blades and scabbards are made locally (by Kelantan Malays), and one of the hilts (the elephant molar) I know for sure was made here in the mid 1990s.

Keris 1) Malela. Made by Stopa (Mustafa) who has now passed away several years ago The keris was forged by Mazlan who is now still living and very well known here. Stopa did the second part, the chiselling (canai) and finish. keris made by Mazlan/stopa team is highly sought after and valued here.

Keris 2) "Anak Alang" (poorly maintained blade)

Keris 3) Tajong.(Pandai saras style blade)

Not sure who actually made the keris but I bough them in mid 1990s from the well known keris maker "Pok Ya" who was also dead much earlier than stopa.

Very happy to hear any comments and criticisms from any of you.

[Henk]

Green,

After seeing so many coteng keris in this thread and the knowledge that these are still made in your area gives me a good feeling. What i see is very good craftmanship on the dresses. The blades, although from a picture hard to see and to Judge, look fine as well.