Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades

[Jim McDougall]

In a concurrent thread on basket hilt swords, the subject of markings of paired crescent moons placed at the terminus of shorter right and left fullers in a central three fuller configuration came up on an Anglo-English basket hilt c.1740s.

The character of these paired 'man in the moon' faced markings are not commonly known on European blades, however they are extremely common in North African blades used in takouba and kaskara. According to Lloyd Cabot Briggs in his article on these blades (JAAS, 1965) his exhaustive research on European, typically Solingen, blades imported into these North African spheres, these 'paired moons' were inherently native applied. While considerable numbers of these blades were indeed European, it appears that native armourers used them on the blades they made as well as possibly applying them to imported or acquired foreign blades .

It has been well known, as described by Oakeshott ('Records of the Medieval Sword') and other instances, that broadsword blades, often of Solingen or Sudanese make, have been mounted in some cases in authentic medieval European hilts and in other cases in other hilts of varying form and age.

The objective of this thread is not to discredit examples of swords with these types of markings but to establish and authenticate the earliest use of the paired moons in Europe on blades so as to determine the origins of their use in North Africa.

In the images I borrowed from the other thread, on the left is a basket hilt with triple fullers and paired moons c.1600 posted by Cathey. In my opinion this is one of the strongest cases for European use of these moons. It will be noted that at the blade root flanking the central triple fullers are two flutes. The moons are more in the character of European astral images used in motif, and blade is entirely of early Solingen types destined for Scotland.

On the right is a basket hilt c.1745, also shown by Cathey, an outstanding Anglo-Irish hilt. The blade however has paired moons more of the character seen on North African kaskara blade examples. While there is of course the possibility this is a German blade, the markings are atypical for Solingen forms known, and both degenerated, almost stylized geometric in form.

The blade example below posted by Iain illustrates the nature of the variations of these moons and fullers on kaskara blades. Many of these are produced in North African locations and blades with the moons are termed 'masri' (Rodd, 1928) with the moons termed 'dukari' and placed for magical and talismanic purpose.


I am hoping that possibly we might look into the use of crescent moons on European blades, and especially instances of their occurrence in pairs facing away from each other as seen here.
We know that the man in the moon type devices occur, usually with other cosmological themes , but looking for the paired examples.

[ulfberth]

Hi Jim,

in auction 69 in Hermann Historica there was a late 16th century German riding sword with six moon stamps on the ricasso, though not facing away from each other, this provides a good idea of the shape and dimensions of old European type of stamps.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

and this one with the moons faced away from each other, discribed as:
A German gold-plated rapier circa 1580
Double-edged thrusting blade of flattened hexagonal section. Both sides signed "CLEMENS STAM" within the double fullers and struck with six marks on the ricasso.

[kronckew]

single moon engraving:

Austro-Hungarian Hussar Sabre of General Andreas Hadik c.1760

[Iain]

Good idea to split this out into another topic Jim. As others have noted these moon stamps are derived from engraving styles which have existed for centuries. Probably the closest to a transitional piece I ever saw was this nice single fuller astral/talisman blade with paired engraved crescents.

I'm also including a Katzbalger with a stamped variation of the crescent. But it's a singular.

Regarding the application of the marks themselves, my understanding is that these would be stamped hot. Meaning that in a non-European context this would be not easy to achieve without destroying the temper of the blade. Briggs is a great source, but he could well have simply got it wrong.

To be clear, the example of mine you posted is 100% produced in Europe, it is an older example and from the 18th century I am 99% sure. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Ulfberth, Kronkew and Iain, thank you so very much guys!!!!

Ufberth, the multiple moons are exactly the concept I have been trying to learn more on. As often noted, the crescents are typically singular, but seen in multiples like this begs many questions.

I have seen cases where kings head, for example as used by Wundes, appear in as many as four or five strikes. It recalls the groupings of stamps applied with silver hallmarking and seems to allude to that sort of 'quality' connotation.
In cases where such a mark, with more pragmatic use such as guild or compliance stamps has become more a motif, such as linear use of the sickle or eyelash marks, it may be perceived as multiplication of power or quality (i.e. more means better).

Speaking of sickle marks, these are another case where what was apparantly a guild type mark associated with Genoa, yet other North Italian centers used similar marks in other configurations and groupings with other marks. Like the moons, running wolf and many other marks were purloined by other centers in many other countries and cultures.

Kronckew, excellent example of the cosmological motif which became popular on blades in the 17th through 18th centuries in Europe. These images became the prototypes for various native interpretations because of the prolific import of trade blades bearing these.

Iain, great points as always, and good info on the stamping of the blades.
I have always been admittedly puzzled on this as there are so many cases of swords and weapons being cold stamped with arsenal marks etc. I was never clear at how this could be accomplished with hard steel.
Briggs does note an analogy on the dukari marks being stamped on an already thuluth covered blade, naturally suggesting these were placed by native artisans. In other references it is noted that the native smiths were using stamps which over time became damaged and suggesting this as cause of degenerating images on later examples

As we have discussed, it certainly seems likely that Solingen, in their phenomenal marketing prowess, might have tailored their blades, including markings, to their clientele. We already know this factually with the 'Spanish motto' blades of the 18th c.; the 'Sahagum' of 17th and 18th to low countries of the Continent; and of course..the 'Andrea Ferara blades to Scotland of the 17th and 18th.
With the decline of markets and demand at the end of the Franco-Prussian war with an overbuilt industry in Solingen for blades, they turned to other potential markets in colonial spheres. It seems we have found that blades were indeed produced for North Africa in this 19th century period and later but we have not yet found definitive data proving so, nor if these were stamped with dukari as discussed.

If these blades were indeed stamped with these marks in Solingen, whether 19th century, or as suggested in the 18th it would be key information. Naturally, if the 18th century date for these was the case, then it would explain just how this unique configuration of even distorted moons became situated in Saharan context. It would also explain these several anomalies in Scottish basket hilts with these dramatically uncharacteristic blades and marks as we are discussing. It would also suggest that the volume of these strategically marked blades for North African consumption were thus shipped away from Europe, explaining the notable absence of examples in European context.

A lot to be considered!!! but well on the track !:)

[ulfberth]

Here is another one German from the beginning of the 17th century.
It seems that famous blade makers also used the moon mark as a quality stamp, amongst other stamps.
Described as: A military rapier, Munich, circa 1610/20

A thrusting blade of flattened hexagonal section struck on both sides with Wolfgang Standler's crescent moon mark on the ricasso

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[kronckew]

new poster just posted links to another austro hungarian blade with similar markings to the one i posted, HERE (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19796) see the link for the 1765 infantry hanger.

[stephen wood]

I think the sword with the Irish hilt almost certainly has a late 19th/early 20th German blade: I recognize the particular stamps. The invisible giveaway with these remounted kaskara blades is that the tang does not pass through the grip - it is shorter and pierced to accommodate a peg rather than to be peened at the pommel.

[ulfberth]

I think the sword with the Irish hilt almost certainly has a late 19th/early 20th German blade: I recognize the particular stamps. The invisible giveaway with these remounted kaskara blades is that the tang does not pass through the grip - it is shorter and pierced to accommodate a peg rather than to be peened at the pommel.

While I'm not an expert on kaskara blades I do know a thing or two on old European blade's and I tend do agree with you, however I can't rule out the possibility 100 % that the blade is 18th c either
That's what make's this tread so interesting, the one in my next post is even more difficult to pinpoint, but people like you who are experienced with these kaskara blade's might know more ....

Thanks

Ulfberht

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Paired crescent moons and a big'un on a small sword hilted spadroon of mine with Solingen blade 2nd half 18thC.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
More scattered crescents on other parts of blade.
Regards,
Norman.

[ulfberth]

Hi Norman,

that is a very nice small sword, beautiful guard and nice blade to.
I think that the engraved crescent moons are mostly used as a symbolic or decoration on the blade, but just as interesting of course, whereas the stamps were uses as marks for identification and or quality.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Ulfberth,
I thought possibly this image with the paired crescents may be applicable.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Norman and Ulfberth for these great examples! as well as the well placed observations.
As noted in the title of this thread, this query is prompted by questions pertaining to the occurrence of faced crescent moons on European blades, particularly those which appear on the blade center near the terminus of fullers.

There is of course a great deal of speculative analysis on what the symbolic or in some cases, talismanic meaning of these crescent moons might have been. This undoubtedly varied in the perceptions of the many circumstances in which they were applied. While this presents fascinating opportunities for possibilities, it is the curious case of multiples in their application, as well as the configuration and position on the blade which is most intriguing.

We know that various stamped marks were placed on European blades and often in multiples as have been seen on examples seen in this thread. It seems that typically makers stamps are most often at the forte on earlier European blades. In the case of most astral themes containing crescent moons as well as stars, sun etc. these are inscribed in central areas of the blade field.

The crescent moons, in pairs, are well known in Saharan regions primarily in North Africa and found on various broadsword blades. These occur invariably at blade center near fullers. We know that large volumes of these blades came from Europe as trade products. We also know that these 'trade' blades apparently inspired native armourers to apply these marks to blades they made as well as others.

It has long been suggested that Solingen indeed produced blades for export to North Africa much as for their many client entrepots in many countries .
It seems these blades may well have been stamped with the moons in Europe in accord with much earlier blade forms also made there.

What we need to discover, and hopefully those of you who have access to resources on Solingen history might have, is some kind of specific reference to documented record of such exports to African markets. Perhaps in addition to finding just how early these moons were used on European blades, we might determine when blades to North Africa began specific export, and if these used the moons.

[ulfberth]

Hi Ulfberth,
I thought possibly this image with the paired crescents may be applicable.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hello Norman,
good point and indeed it is, my attention was drawn towards the big moon, however the smaller crescents seem to be an engraved version and in the same place were most stamps are on the broad sword blades.
On rapier blades the moons mostly seem to appear on the forte.

kind regards
Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Norman,
good point and indeed it is, my attention was drawn towards the big moon, however the smaller crescents seem to be an engraved version and in the same place were most stamps are on the broad sword blades.
On rapier blades the moons mostly seem to appear on the forte.

kind regards
Ulfberth

Well said! and indeed Norman this significant motif is of course pertinent as while of course later period, it recognizes the use of paired moons in earlier times as they became associated with quality and other imbued occult symbolism. In these later times, groupings of various cosmological devices alluded to occult and talismanic allegories, and apparently often included the by then, venerable, paired moons as recognized embellishment.

[ulfberth]

Hi all,

I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona.
Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ?
Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles the kaskara.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Iain]

Hi all,

I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona.
Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ?
Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles tha kaskara.

kind regards

Ulfberth
Not seeing an image. :)

[ulfberth]

:o

[Jim McDougall]

Ulfberth, thank you so much for your ongoing support in this discussion and for adding such valuable examples. These are excellent in our look into the similarities/differences in the use of crescent moons in Solingen, followed in other cultural spheres.

It would seem that in North Africa, the talismanic and magical imbuements of these faced crescent moons was well integrated into the symbolisms of tribal folk religions. That coupled with the special attention given by traders to these marks as indicators of high quality blades seem rather a 'shoe in' for incorporating them into subsequent native versions of the blades.

In this outstanding schiavona example, the blade is indeed central triple fuller and the moons in the familiar positions below the outside fullers.
It has long been clear that blades for schiavona were often supplied to North Italian makers in instances from Solingen.
While the competition between major centers in Italy, Germany and Styria was well established, in my opinion, it seems unlikely that Solingen blades would have been required in Italy as early as the date of this hilt. Naturally if the sword was in use outside its original sphere, and subsequently refurbished during its working life (often considerably long), then the use of a Solingen blade as replacement seems understandable.

This seems further support for these types of blades being produced by various smiths in Solingen in the 18th century, probably earlier as well, to provide blades to fulfill these kinds of requirements.....obviously in Scotland and other centers including Italian oriented domiciles.

As I have found in reviewing many old notes, these moons, like other often used devices, were not necessarily confined to a particular maker, especially the most prominent families of them. These were probably adopted by producers outside those within Solingen perimeters and provided as a kind of 'after market' type commodity, with such marks alluding to the quality of more renowned blades without the obvious copy of established makers marks.

[Jim McDougall]

I wanted to note that the excellent example of court sword posted by Norman in #14 on its blade has the blade motif, using these kinds of magic/occult motif in what is often termed the 'Caissignard' style, which originated or was typical in Nantes, France.

[cornelistromp]

Hi all,

I found another one, described as a 17th century schiavona.
Jim , Iain , any thoughts on the blade ?
Altough the crescent moons are not that visible in the picture, the shape of the blade and the fullers resembles the kaskara.

kind regards

Ulfberth

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

[kronckew]

form follows function.

[Iain]

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

Hi Jasper, agreed, however the presence of these stamped paired moons seems to be not particularly common in European mounts?

[cornelistromp]

you do not see them often, but I know several European blades with a double moon in the middle of the blade with multiple Fullers.
but also blades with only Fullers without any marks.
I believe that the double moon has its origins in Europe, Toledo or Solingen somewhere in the 16th century

best,
jasper

[Jim McDougall]

No, this does not mean that there is a link with Africa/Kaskara
this type of blade with triple fullers, with the middle fuller longer and sometimes extending to the point, occurs frequently from 1500 onwards in Europe, both on German and Italian swords! often without moons.

best,
jasper

Actually the point has not been to draw any connection in particular to African kaskaras, but more to determine the presence of paired crescent moons with faces in European context. It seems fairly well agreed that these moons were indeed used as marking devices , even into earlier medieval times as per Oakeshott along with numerous others (I do not believe the addition of 'faces' came until later).
Apparantly the Espaderos del Rey in Spain used variations of the faced moon (Briggs, 1965; Mann, 1962, others) however they were singular and often with other devices usually. I would agree that the 16th century in the centers noted by Jasper would probably have been where these paired moons began.
It is my opinion that the use of 'multiples' such as the konigskopf (kings head) at the forte in Solingen, may have influenced or been associated with same with the moons on the swords Ulfberth posted using said configuration.

The purpose of these duplicated images is unclear, just as the use of the paired moons on the blade center near fullers remains......but however rare, it seems that Europe was the source of origin.

The unfortunate fear of incorporating 'ethnographic' medium into a discussion on European blades was the cause for unnecessary concern in the 'basket hilt' thread, and the inclusion of the kaskara instances were pertinent in recognition of the origin and period of the moons in Europe in rather a symbiotic sense. I think Briggs in his key 1965 article on the use of European blades in Tuareg edged weapons is a most dynamic illustration of that situation.

[peserey]

There are a Shasha of my family. I think the solingen it is. far as I know in my family 200 years. What do you think about this?

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, peserey :) .
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.

[peserey]

Welcome to the forum, peserey :) .
Very nice old shashka with suggestive marks.
It will be interesting to know what the members say about them.


Thank you . yes I am also very curious. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.

[peserey]

Peserey, thank you so much for joining us here, and for sharing this wonderful old shashka of your family.

This appears to be a Caucasian shashka of most likely 1890s into early 1900s which is mounted with a Solingen trade blade. It is hard to say for certain as this 'cosmological' arrangement with moon and stars seems copied from some of the motif associated with the Schimmelbusch family. Their markings did not typically have the moon, but various astral symbols with stars in three's. The shape on these correspond to much older Solingen symbols often termed 'cogwheels' but are usually seen as stars.

While Caucasian makers often produced their own blades, typically in Chechnya and copying European marks, the ones on your blade suggest it s a German blade rather than Caucasian.


Thank you. We have our family migrated from the Caucasus in the years 1780-1790. this sword came along with them.

[kronckew]

'nother set of paired crescents, on a takouba

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for entering this here Kronckew!
This is certainly an interesting perspective on the mystery of the 'dukari' which are of course the paired crescents found mostly on Saharan takouba.

What is unique here, in an apparently quite modern example of the traditional form takouba, is that these curious 'P' marks in semi arc are paired back to back in the same configuration and location at fuller terminals, as the typical crescents known as dukari.

These paired crescents, which seem to invariably occur on takouba blades (some kaskara as well) have many possibilities as to their original meaning or purpose. However, it would seem the most probable was some sort of magical or talismanic imbuement, as has been suggested by various writers on these Saharan tribes.

Though this example is clearly quite modern, the tradition seems to be applied here by interpolation of this letter and arc symbol, which could be connected to any number of meanings. I have seen this on another blade, and Im sure that Iain will have as well.

Interesting!!! and hopefully we might find other examples or suggestions on these markings.

[ulfberth]

Hi All,

so far the earliest version of crescent moon stamps I found was in Hermann Historica auction 71 Lot Nr. 3065 and in this case it was described as a blade of the Munich bladesmith Diefstetter :

"A Swiss hand-and-a-half sword, circa 1570
Long, double-edged blade, each side with a short fuller, the obverse side with a stylised wolf with remnants of brass inlays. Each side of the ricasso with a crescent moon mark of Munich bladesmith Diefstetter"

kind regards

[ulfberth]

Here is a very similar hand and a half sword, with an almost identical blade including the crescent moon stamps on both sides of the ricasso and running wolf on the blade, the pommel is very resembling to.


Kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 )

what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon?

Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield).

fe post#5

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19156&highlight=diefstetter

Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

[ulfberth]

amazing beautiful sword !!!( sword post 36 )

what is the connection between Diefstetter and the crescent moon?

Melchior diefstetter had as mark Crossed flails and shield lozengy (checkered shield).

fe post#5

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19156&highlight=diefstetter

Melchior Diefstetter died in 1556.

Thanks Jasper !
And yes that is correct, Diefstetter is known to have the crossed flails as a blade mark.
The crescent moon referring as a mark of Diefstetter is how the sword ( post 35 ) was described by Hermann Historica.
I was as surprised as you are, perhaps another later member of the family ?

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

there is also a later member and swordmaker of the diefstetter family from Munich known;

Ulrich Diefstetter 1536-1589, who had a checkered shield and a jester head as a mark but no crescent moon.

best,
Jasper

[ulfberth]

I don't know were Hermann Historica got the information about crescent moons used as a mark by Ulrich Diefstetter,
perhaps they had a reference we don't know about yet.
I thought both swords were nice examples that fit in this post "Earliest Use of Paired Crescent Moons on Solingen Blades "
It would be interesting to find out if the crescent moons were used by this family of sword makers or not.
We do know that they were used by various makers, the earliest I found so far are these two similar hand and a half swords.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

[blue lander]

I'd like to throw this odd tulwar into the mix:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18545&highlight=Dukari

And this schiavona:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=200700&postcount=68

...purely to confuse the topic :)

[Jim McDougall]

Actually no confusion at all!
These are interesting examples of the spurious use of these kinds of markings on various blades, the one a 'souvenier' item from India. The other with schiavona hilt is of triple fuller sabre form usually it seems from Solingen well into and through 19th century. The quad groupings of crosses and usually another device (comet and stars, or in this case moon) are often seen on Algerian 'nimcha' blades (see Briggs, 1965).

[blue lander]

Are there other examples of Indo-Persian tulwar blades with non-spurious moons on them? I was under the impression that most European blades circulating in that area were British. I just have a hard time understanding what this souvenir maker was trying to accomplish when he went out of his way to add these marks to the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Are there other examples of Indo-Persian tulwar blades with non-spurious moons on them? I was under the impression that most European blades circulating in that area were British. I just have a hard time understanding what this souvenir maker was trying to accomplish when he went out of his way to add these marks to the blade.

It is hard to imagine what the creator of this blade was trying to add with these clearly 'artistic' interpretations of the astral symbols often seen on European blades (usually Solingen) as noted in the discussion linked (5/16).
It is hard to determine just which exact region this sword might be from as it is something contrived using a regular Indo-Persian tulwar hilt (widely dispersed through mostly northern regions) but others in degree.

While there were many British blades, typically sabre blades especially M1796 occurring in tulwars, most of the 'firangi' blades southward were German and of backsword type with many broadswords on patas.

It does not seem crescent moons were typically used in the Indian repertoire and these appear to just simulate European marks as they were often seen as imbuements of power etc. or such interpretations.

Just my thoughts from what I have noted, but others more experienced in these weapons might add more.

[ulfberth]

Thank you for posting these Ulfberth!!! and that sword is a beauty!

As far as I have known, the crescent 'man in the moon' stamps were originally used by the 'espaderos del Rey' (sword makers for the king) in Spain, and this particular mark was widely copied in Solingen and Munich.
It was not specific to a certain maker, but became more of an accompanying symbol of imbued quality suggesting the Toledo associations.

The cross and orb and other markings such as the 'Passau Wolf' also became widely used as many other markings in these capacities.

It seems that Stantler was more known to have used these moons as he used Spanish names and the stamps recorded in Palomares on many blades. Diefstetter as noted used flails as a mark, but it would not be surprising in my opinion to see these moons on his blades.

Hi Jim,

This is also what I think and indeed the most probable cause if I may use this term, as Jasper has also referred to this Spanish/German origins in post #26.
It seems the crescent moon became more of a quality mark as a personal maker signature.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id=00_CAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=moons+on+solingen+swords&source=bl&ots=IAQGJkeMxt&sig=SedtFbqyOU5ibPWvew4oxIpQSMI&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=moons%20on%20solingen%20swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..

[ulfberth]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your comment, Indeed a quality mark amongst the ones you mentioned.
As were the eyelashes marks also early European, which we also see on African and Indian swords.
It would be interesting to see how far we can go and find even earlier or other crescent moons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your comment, Indeed a quality mark amongst the ones you mentioned.
As were the eyelashes marks also early European, which we also see on African and Indian swords.
It would be interesting to see how far we can go and find even earlier or other crescent moons.

Kind regards

Ulfberth


I found these ~ Some Solingen? In the Moroccan Nimcha the moon accompanied by the sun common on European blades... The moon shaped Indian Axe inspires comparison in use of a moon shaped weapon as opposed to a blade with moons...Also shown is the triple dot on what are sometimes called eyelash or hogs back combinations which may be rudimentary moons?

See also the Pata or Dandpata at https://www.pinterest.com/pin/432064157979557937/ with two moons.

[ulfberth]

Hi Ibrahimm,

that Nimcha has what we call a talisman blade in it, it sure European, looks like 18th C and could be French , Northern Spain or even ... Portuguese :)

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent thread ...To which I add in agreement that these moons were probably not owned by individual sword makers moreover they were associated with different factories rather as a quality marker...something like the Passau wolf marks...and Ferrera marks. In my view I view Arabian swords with moons placed by local sword smiths here at https://books.google.com.om/books?id=00_CAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=moons+on+solingen+swords&source=bl&ots=IAQGJkeMxt&sig=SedtFbqyOU5ibPWvew4oxIpQSMI&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=moons%20on%20solingen%20swords&f=false

I am not certain when all the sword design/decoration influence occurred between Europe and Africa though some sources indicate as early as 14th C...It seems to me that moons were often accompanied by suns in the European examples but the Moons were either favoured by African and Islamic subjects because of the new moon thus must have carried a TALISMANIC IDEA..


Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahimm,

that Nimcha has what we call a talisman blade in it, it sure European, looks like 18th C and could be French , Northern Spain or even ... Portuguese :)

kind regards

Ulfberth


Ulfberth I agree on all points and placed the talismanic blade marks to illustrate the single moon in European context accompanied by a sun.
Regards,
Ibrahiim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, it truly is hard to determine reasonably accurate dates of adoption of the various symbols and devices from European blades into the talismanic motifs on native blades. We can compellingly presume these are indeed talismanic as in the case of the 'dukari' (paired moons) which are the subject of our study, these were placed in addorsed position while most European blades had single examples of the moon.
Native blacksmiths in the Sahara with the Tuareg, as well as Hausas, were just as in many cultures, viewed with dark suspicions, and their blades seen as possessing 'magic'.

While the sun and stars are included in the astral theme of blades in many cultures and these kinds of motif, it is the moon which seems to carry the most impetus talismanially and with folk religions and superstitions.

I think you are quite right in looking toward the 'hogs back' or sickle marks of European origin as perhaps a lunar symbol. The arc and the dentations indicating reflective rays, whether of that intention in European parlance or not, certainly might be perceived in native cultures as a reflective moon.
While many aspects of such symbolism in native folk religions have to do with phases of the moon (as with Lohr panels on Sudanese blades), the commonly placed use of the duality theme is also often present.

With cosmological symbolism often key in folk religions and superstitions in many native cultures, it is not surprising that they saw the talismanic and magically themed blades of Europe as having imbued powers. Even with blades with alternate themes, inscriptions or marks, they would likely have seen these in the same sense, but presuming these other motif as simply the same scope but similar properties.

Absolutely Ulfberth!!
The more examples we can find of these moons in different contexts the more we can build a reasonable perspective on their diffusion both geographically and perhaps even chronologically.




Hello Jim, and I welcome your post!

I occasionally see references pushing the style or fashion for moons back to the 14th Century coinciding with the thought that European blades were being exported in about the same time frame.. Much of that is somewhat hearsay thus I search for this distinction... It is interesting that in searching for Talismanic work the most compelling evidence today...and still used..comes from Morocco. It is not only the talimanic designs and spells but the person who does the practical work;...The smiths who convey from generation to generation the secret powers of such craft; It is something of a double act with the metal smith, silversmith or metalworker doing the actual work whilst the actual spells are done by the wandering magician folk..written on paper...then you go off to a silver man and it gets done... There is a powerful history of Jewish work there and the wandering and very weird looking magician people who still look like they just stepped out of an ancient history manual on spells and magic...Sort of like apothecaries ..and if they had a pointed hat you would think of Merlin or some sort of Witch or magic man... They are highly respected and very much part of the scenery as you find in all the old souks...quite amazing!
Ibrahiim.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Very well noted Ibrahiim!! and these talismanic properties in these markings used on sword blades, and they have been used in varied form well into antiquity. It seems such marks are found even on blades into Roman times (I think reference in Oakeshott, 1962) among others in similar simple style.
In central Europe into early times tribal people often used astral symbols, such as Szekelers who used sun and moon as symbols in their material culture.

It also seems that I have seen suggestions of the double addorsed crescent axes as seen often in India and others having symbolic lunar significance.

Magic in various cultures may often be one of the key elements, from the shaman into prehistory into more recent times to the medicine men, witch doctors and associated capacities .Elements of folk religion, pagan and animist traditions to the established mystic and magic properties often held in many of the major religions are widely known. However their esoterica may lead to misunderstanding many aspects of the symbolism.

Indeed Jim and I note on passing the subject of the Evil Eye pointing to the amazing eye built into an English Church at Edmundbyers which is probably Saxon...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:)

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,
Actually that rayed eye represents the Eye of Providence, often used in Christian iconography, and became popular in renaissance iconography.
It represents the Eye of God over mankind.
It is often associated with Freemasonry, and on the US dollar bill it is atop pyramid. The association with the symbol on US currency and that Masonic association is debated.

The 'evil eye' is of course an entirely separate notion, but indeed in many cases associated with the purpose of talismanic imagery, but with blade decoration most typically on ethnographic rather than European blades.

Thank you for keeping this thread current!!!


Thanks Jim, Also interesting with the six pointed star ... Regards Ibrahiim...

[DStirk]

Apologies in advance for resurrecting an old thread that may have been resolved elsewhere. I have been researching markings on a collection of Scottish basket-hilted swords that were damaged in a house fire. They belong to my stepfather and I am in the process of stabilizing and conserving them as best I can. This is my first post on the forum, and I hope it is of interest to some here.

One sword in particular is relevant to this thread, as it has the triple fuller/ paired stylized crescent moons, and partial tang features of many Kaskara blades, yet was incorporated into a probable basket-hilt type. I say probable, because the basket hilt was lost in the fire. I am intrigued by the short tang, as this seems like a structural weakness and probable liability when paired with a basket-hilt. Perhaps it was ceremonial, and not intended to be used in anger.

I am also curious about whether the blade was European and intended for African sale, but ended up in Scotland, or whether it could conceivably have ended up in Scotland via Africa. From this thread I have learned that the paired moons on the blade are more likely to be African than European.

Anyway, here are some photos. In the meantime I will ask my stepdad what he knows of the provenance of the blade, and whether he has any pre-fire photos of it with the hilt.

Cheers,
Duncanhttp://

[Mefidk]

Hello Duncan, thanks for posting this interesting example. Sorry to hear about fire damage, it along with theft is something we all fear for our collections!
I have recently been examining a number of kaskara tangs, and this does very much look like a kaskara blade.
The short tang was inserted through a crossguard into a cylindrical grip and a pin used to hold it all together. This is of course not the strongest possible construction, but when well packed it is surprisingly strong.
Prior to these swords becoming valuable in their own right there was a time when people often transformed kaskara from their proper form to European types. I own a couple of these myself. Some of this might have been innocent thinking these were knightly swords, but often they were retrofitted to schiavonas and basket hilts (the blade dimensions being the same). The tang is the give away of course, but unless the sword is dismantled as in your case it can be hard to see.

Give aways for the kaskara are the slightly lozenge shaped tang with the hole in a flattened part and the uneven shoulders to the blade. This triple fuller with cresent moons is probably the most common kaskara blade type, and judging from your blade I'd say that is is an older one (it looks in the pictures to have a less flat profile than the later blades.

These blades were often (I believe) trade blades which were unmarked on arriving in Africa, but were then modified by the addition of the dukari and forming of the tang to fit the local swords. You will often find the identical blades in takouba which have a different tang (long and thin, peened over the guard). I would very much be interested in anyone knows of museum examples of these munitions quality blades since although general consensus seems to be Solingen, I have not seen any definite proof in terms of shipping records etc.. Plenty for higher end blades with makers marks, but these specific ones are more common and still a bit of mystery.

The picture is one of my kaskara, this one was one of those 'restored' as a knightly sword.
Best,
Chris

[DStirk]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for confirming my suspicions. It looks like my stepdad bought a made-up sword I guess. When you say early for Kaskara blades do you mean 18th Century as opposed to 19th, or are they all relatively recent?

I've taken some measurements:
Blade length - 90cm
Full length (Blade & tang) - 98cm
Blade width at crosspiece - 43mm
Blade thickness 4.45mm
Three full length fullers on a flat blade.
Paired crescent moons on both sides of blade.

On the subject of the fire, yes a disaster, but it could have been much worse. Most of the collection was saved by repeated trips out of the house by the family while the burnt roof started to collapse. I will leave judgement about the wisdom of that to others. I was able to intervene as the burnt swords, lances, dirks and various WW2 firearms were being taken to the local dump. I have restored about half of them so far, and one more house-fire just adds to the history of the items in my opinion. Pics of restoration before and after attached.

Cheers,
Duncan

[DStirk]

Edited

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for confirming my suspicions. It looks like my stepdad bought a made-up sword I guess. When you say early for Kaskara blades do you mean 18th Century as opposed to 19th, or are they all relatively recent?

I've taken some measurements:
Blade length - 90cm
Full length (Blade & tang) - 98cm
Blade width at crosspiece - 43mm
Blade thickness 4.45mm
Three full length fullers on a flat blade.
Paired crescent moons on both sides of blade.

On the subject of the fire, yes a disaster, but it could have been much worse. Most of the collection was saved by repeated trips out of the house by the family while the burnt roof started to collapse. I will leave judgement about the wisdom of that to others. I was able to intervene as the burnt swords, lances, dirks and various WW2 firearms were being taken to the local dump. I have restored about half of them so far, and one more house-fire just adds to the history of the items in my opinion. Pics of restoration before and after attached.

Cheers,
Duncan


Hi Duncan,
In my opinion, most of the 'made up' knightly swords using the blades from the hoardes of souvenir kaskara blades dragged back from the Sudan after Omdurman (1898) were medieval in form rather than 18th century Scottish basket hilts. At least this was the scenario as described by the late Ewart Oakeshott. Typically these were medieval style hilts and often on what were authentic European blades, and sometimes genuinely early.

These triple fuller blades (termed 'masri' in the Tuareg and other tribal dialects) seem to have likely been Solingen exports which came into North African ports and there marked with the crescent moons (dukari). While it has been long held that these were native made blades, it has become more likely these were Solingen 'blanks' produced in the very active Solingen industry.

While it seems that a number of Scottish basket hilts appear to have had these kaskara blades installed in them, the hilts are generally quite older than these blades. The Scots were basically not carrying basket hilts after the '45 (1745) and the proscription of weapons.......the exceptions being the dirk daggers and numbers of dragoon basket hilts used in cavalry and others in some infantry units, all in British service.

By the time of these kaskara blades, these old Scottish hilts were long out of service, since c. 1800.
However, there are possibilities of later use of these heirloom Scottish basket hilts used in British colonial settings. I have seen Indian native offcials associated with the Khyber Rifles proudly displaying Scottish basket hilts in the late 1890s, early 1900s, about the period of the kaskara blades.
This could offer a plausbiility for the chronologcal disparity.

Many 'made up' swords were essentially authentic in degree using old hilts, or genuine old blades. Decoration in the stately baronial mansions in Victorian times was keenly important, so these 'composed' arms were well known and an area of collecting most interesting and established.

[DStirk]

Thanks Jim for that most informative reply. I will now endeavour to find out what provenance my stepdad knows to see if it fits. He definitely has Victorian basket hilt swords in his collection and it may be that this was known to be one of these.

Cheers,
Duncan