Food For Thought [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

ariel

27th February 2006, 04:07 PM

We, sword collectors, think that our acquisition of things sharp and pointy is a form of investment. Indeed, the prices went up and up for many years.
However, this article offers a sobering thought: if there are no buyers, there is no value.
Sword collection is more than just amassing used lottery tickers: it requires familiarity and appreciation of history in all its manifestations. The coming generations have not been educated the way we were (for better or for worse!) and history is not their forte. They grew up with the idea that there are "generations" of things(computers, tapes/DVDs, TVs etc, etc) and that with the advent of a new "generation", the earlier one becomes obsolete and needs to be discarded.
The idea of "obsolescence" is a death sentence of collecting!
Since most people start collecting when they are financially stable (~ 40-50 yo), the guy who would be potentially interested in paying a lot of money for my swords 20 years down the road, must be in his mid-20s, ie in college, right now. How many history-minded college students do you know?
I am afraid, my swords will decrease in value 5 years down the road and will be worthless by the time I hit the retirement age.

Alan62

27th February 2006, 04:08 PM

Interesting article
I take my children to the antique stores and try to keep them interested.
I also have started each one of them a different collection for them to build upon.
Hopefully they will

Valjhun

27th February 2006, 05:10 PM

As Ariel said our kind of collecting is a sort of investment.

However I dissagree with him about the value decrease in the future. I honestly think that thoose nowdays kids who play games like Prince of Persia, Berserk, Ninja Gaiden ecc. and watch moovies like KillBill, Last Samurai ecc. at a certain age will be enthusiastic to buy some stuff they saw in thoose beloved games/films and they'll be prepared to pay big bucks for it (even more than we do today, 'cos we/you weren't not so much under the affect of the mass-media ;o). I think that interest in collecting will fall over the years, but the number of people who will be enraptured to put a pair of katana or shamshir on the wall will drastically increase due to thoose movies and games.

Beeig myself still pretty young (I've just turned 26 and I still play games and I'm certainlly not ashamed of that) I can confirm that all my coevals are shocked upon my collection. Further, I was selling a 3000$ katana made by osafune sukesada the previous week and I've sold it just yesterday to a pampered youngser just yesterday for a double price. When he saw my little collection he almost felt to a down, he wanted my 13 Luk Keris so badly, 'cos he had seen it in Prince of Persia (yes, games are sometimes stupid), but unfortunatelly it wasn't for sale :D (I regret it a little, thou).

So do not underestmate the power of modern media... Just take a look at the big bucks United Cuttlery and other licenciaries are doing by producing and selling sword and other regalia from the films. I guess that someone would be prepared to buy a real japanese gunto (also appeared in many movies) rather that thoose modern made trash, if he would KNOW that he can get it for just the double price...

Well I also predict an even greater increase of Nazi and Soviet memorabilia. Why? Well I guess that bad guys were always and will be for ever verry popular. :)

On the other hand I'm almost certain that stamps, coins, or more "stupid" things like pencils and lottery tickets or antique toalette paper (what the hell???) and all that meaningless stuff will fall into oblivion sooner or later.

Well, for the end, if you, older collectors have probblems with afterdeath disposal of your collections, I offer volounteer to take it over and I promise to maintain your collections properly :D :D :D

Lew

27th February 2006, 06:04 PM

I have it covered for now. My 14yr old has already picked out all my prime pieces and told me when I kick off he is going to take over my collection :D That is if I don't have them buried with me I told him. ;)

Lew

Jens Nordlunde

27th February 2006, 06:24 PM

Hi Rick,

In a way Ariel is right, but on the other hand – and I think all collectors should realise this – what we have, all of it is on loan. On loan for further generations.

Tim Simmons

27th February 2006, 07:03 PM

I think some collecting really does verge on "OCD" and when these collections lack any distinguishing merit their future may well be in doubt or become a museum of curio, I am afiad I might see pencils that way even if some are quite old. As for the things we collect, so long as our societies remain and others attain wealth to enable collecting I am sure the interest is constant. Youngsters grow up and anything can become the catalyst. Just look at some of the lovely young ladies fresh from university that one sees presenting historical documentaries and the like on TV. Tim

Jim McDougall

28th February 2006, 12:36 AM

I'm having a pyramid built, and they'll all be buried with me :) :)!!!!

Jim-Ra

Seriously, I agree with Jens and I hope that any legacy I leave will be that I did something to help preserve the history of these weapons, and the researchers of the next generation will carry forward and love these weapons as I have.

Rick

28th February 2006, 01:50 AM

I believe that as weapon collectors we have a somewhat different niche than the people who collect Avon bottles or match holders .

I would like to believe that the historical and , dare I say it, visceral attraction of these pieces will serve them well in retaining their value and collector interest over the forthcoming generations .

What I fear the most is the threat of the burgeoning legal sanctions against the posession of these items for future generations . A casual glance at some nations' weapons laws today speaks volumes for our future prospects .

After all a well preserved 18th century sword or dagger in the wrong hands will still be able to take a life in the 22nd century .

not2sharp

28th February 2006, 02:27 AM

I would recommend reading Werner Muensterberger's Collecting - An Unruly Passion (Princeton unv press, 1994). He looks at the collecting from a psychoanalytic perspective and cites the popularity of collecting well back to the edge of recorded history. He believe that collectors and collecting do so to satisfy some basic need. Like Linus with his security blanket, collectors tend to derive comfort from acquring objects and from the quest for the objects. It doesn't matter what the objects are, or whether they have any economic value. It is an escape to a comforting place; and something that develops in early childhood.

Given the long hour worked by parents these days, and the way youngsters are packed away in day care centers, we may well see a boom in collector interests. Whether any of that will attach itself to the items we collect is hard to say; however historical pieces are a custodial function, where fewer and fewer classic examples survive with every passing day. Demand will go up just as a factor of attrition. But, be not concerned, kids today may be into other things but they are still as excited as we were about acquiring them.

n2s

rasdan

28th February 2006, 05:24 AM

As for me, i think that the fact that one day my stuff are gonna be sold is unavoidable. So i just accept the fact and i have made a price list of the stuff and gave it to my wife just in case i kicked the bucket early. My wife said she wont sell it, but when it reaches the children, grandchildren, i hope they'll have some price guide (if it helps at that particular time). Money is not everything, but it is really important. On second thought, perhaps i should make a will and have the collections donated to the museum, just to ensure that it wont end up in ebay's no reserve auction of $0.99... :) Well.. i guess my collections are not that valuable after all.. :(

Andrew

28th February 2006, 05:27 AM

Hi Rick,

In a way Ariel is right, but on the other hand – and I think all collectors should realise this – what we have, all of it is on loan. On loan for further generations.

I'm a generation removed from you, Jens. ;) (In case you need a home for your collection one day. :D )

Andrew

28th February 2006, 05:28 AM

Valjhun

28th February 2006, 09:44 AM

, just to ensure that it wont end up in ebay's no reserve auction of $0.99... :)

Rasdan,

A step out of the conversation, but, auctions with 0,99$ starting bids for a piece with value around 1000$ usually ends for a twice price compared to thoose auctions for virtually the same item with starting bid 500$, wich end out not sold. :p

Sorry for interruption, Gentlemen, Intersting debate, please, go on. :)

Spunjer

28th February 2006, 01:01 PM

since my collection mainly consist of filipino weapons, getting my kids interested in other aspects of it like the history that goes with it gets them interested. like Valjhun mentioned, video games does help; perfect example was when my son found out there was a moro kris in mortal Kombat. it became his favorite weapon even if the character was weak, lol.

Jens Nordlunde

28th February 2006, 05:17 PM

All right Andrew, I will add you to the list:).

Jens

Titus Pullo

4th March 2006, 01:55 AM

It's a shame! Martial arts, no matter from what countries, are indistinguishable from the cultures themselves. It's part of our heritage, and so the antique weapons they fought with. It's very interesting if you study conflicts of each cultures and how they deal with them, using different types of weapons and strategies against the enemies. For example, even still today, soldiers in Thailand use bribed so they could fight on the front line. that's pretty cool, I say. We just need people like you to spread the words.

Perkun

4th March 2006, 04:56 AM

It is rather simple I suppose.
There will always be young men that love cold steel.
:)

pakana

4th March 2006, 10:00 AM

What an interesting debate to participate!All you gentlemen covered a theme that it is in the mind of every collector of bladed weapons.And after us what?Who will take our small or big collection?Is anyone,our children or anybody,will be interesting in that kind of stuff?
Especially for the keris collectors.If we believe that the keris is "possesed"by somekind of a spirit,if we leave this world (in many,many years from now!!) what is going to happen with this poor spirit?Or the beautiful work a blacksmith or empu had done?Lost for ever?Rust?
Maybe the collection thing is somekind of a vanity.When all your collection ends in a flea market...I dont know ..its kind of sad..

Rick

4th March 2006, 03:54 PM

It is rather simple I suppose.
There will always be young men that love cold steel.
:)

Well said Perkun ; I only hope that the *state* will still allow them to posess such items .

BluErf

5th March 2006, 01:24 AM

Well.. i guess my collections are not that valuable after all.. :(

Sell them to me!!! :) Don't underestimate the value of your keris collection. You have some very nice pieces in your collection!

BluErf

5th March 2006, 01:44 AM

I think as collectors of blades, we are a bit safer than collectors of 'curios'. At least there is an established base of collectors, researchers, literature and not forgetting museum exhibits.

The blades are part of a people's history and culture, and sometimes national pride. So unless a people is completely obliterated, there will always be someone who is interested in his roots and past and will collect these blades. And furthermore, there will always be the 'non-native' collectors here and there. Sometimes, the government recognizes the significance of these blades and passes policies that facilitate the survival of the blade arts (the Japanese comes to mind as an example).

Btw, I'm 27. I started collecting kerises when I was 22. Does that make me part of the current generation obsessed with mp3 players with gigabytes of songs that they didn't know they had? :p Well, ok, I could be the oddball amongst my more 'modern' peers, but I think there are new young collectors being born every day.

BluErf

5th March 2006, 01:55 AM

Interesting article
I take my children to the antique stores and try to keep them interested.
I also have started each one of them a different collection for them to build upon.
Hopefully they will

Tell them tales and legends involving the blades, or tell them about the history and exploits of the people. I think this is especially powerful when the stories are from one's native culture because it creates a sense of identity and pride. Heroes (and their blades) never die.

And how many of us wanted a dha after watching Suriyothai or Sema: Warrior of Ayutthaya, or a jian after watching Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon or The Hero?

Now we just need someone to make a movie on the Moros and the kris-guys will probably see their collection double in value. :p

rasdan

5th March 2006, 08:57 AM

Sell them to me!!! :) Don't underestimate the value of your keris collection. You have some very nice pieces in your collection!

Mine is just normal stuff Blu. For the time being, i think i'll just keep it so that i have something to look at before retiring to bed every night. :)

BluErf

5th March 2006, 09:15 AM

I distinctively remember some of your posts. There are beautiful pieces in your collection! If you bring them down to Adni's shop, I'm very sure they will go into the 'premium kerises' showcase upstairs. :)

But you are right, we derive more pleasure from looking at them and caring for them than having the money in our bank account. Who wants something as common as money, or a Rolex for that matter!

An ex-classmate's wife recently told me that her colleague just bought a $0.5mil watch (a Jaeger-LeCoultre, I believe). I immediately told her I'd rather have a $0.5mil keris. :) She looked at me as if I were mad. Well, I don't care...

Rick

5th March 2006, 03:41 PM

Now we just need someone to make a movie on the Moros and the kris-guys will probably see their collection double in value. :p

Well , there is a very old Hollywood movie starring Gary Cooper and David Niven ; The Real Glory . Of course it is a slanted view of things but not a bad flick at all .
Made in 1939 available on videotape VHS digitally remastered with stereo sound .

Try :

filmwest@pacbell.net

not2sharp

5th March 2006, 05:37 PM

Rick

5th March 2006, 08:14 PM

not2sharp

5th March 2006, 08:34 PM

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0393309061.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

This is the volume in which the Master and Commander crew battles Dyaks and Malays.

It is available here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393309061/qid=1141590641/sr=1-14/ref=sr_1_14/102-5119880-6167355?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

n2s

Emanuel

7th March 2006, 05:31 PM

Greetings to all,

To the elder collectors here, I'd like to say that there will always be younger generations to care for your collections. You yourselves have taken up this activity on the trails of those before you who got them from original sources in some cases. I have barely started my collection and I'm the same age Bluerf was when he started. Like my cotemporaries I do carry by 5 gig mp3 player :) but when I'm home I read about the blades of the world and stare at my beautiful Javanese keris. I dream of arranging an appropriate weapons room in the future, with each wall devoted to a specific region of the world. I am just as attracted by northern-African, Indian, and eastern weapons, and as soon as I accumulate some disposable income I rush to the bay to see what's new. Later on in life I hope to meet some of you and perhaps provide some of your pieces with a new home :rolleyes:
I think that young people at my age are just getting mature enough to be attracted by the cultures and histories represented by edged weapons. As they learn more, they inevitably become more involved in this activity - or even life style.
Regards,
Manolo

B.I

7th March 2006, 06:01 PM

ahem!
you dont have to be in your twenties to own an mp3 player.

.............do you? :confused:

Lee

7th March 2006, 06:57 PM

... Werner Muensterberger's Collecting - An Unruly Passion (Princeton unv press, 1994). He looks at the collecting from a psychoanalytic perspective and cites the popularity of collecting well back to the edge of recorded history. He believe that collectors and collecting do so to satisfy some basic need ... collectors tend to derive comfort from acquring objects and from the quest for the objects.

I will have to try to find that book; I agree with the viewpoint you have summarized. Take a look at the effort people will go to for imaginary items in games like World of Warcraft and the compulsive efforts pursuring the numerous quests in that game.

I am presently savoring my way through Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle (1962) and some of his insights relevant to collecting and faking antiques.

I believe the thing for us to be concerned with is not a fading interest in what we collect, but the danger of legislative prohibitions upon these objects as weapons. The 2nd Amendment (thank you Founding Fathers) provides us some shielding in the USA, but some of our Australian comrade's collections may well be in peril.

... gtg ... WoW servers should now be back up... :)

Valjhun

7th March 2006, 07:04 PM

I never understood the fact, why would be owning an antique, not sharp katana submissed to prohibitions when you can buy a lot cheaper chainsaw in the next hardware store... Let's gonna left to the court experst to say wich can make more damage to fellow citizens.. nosense... :confused:

Tim Simmons

7th March 2006, 07:08 PM

Mark

7th March 2006, 07:47 PM

The Master and Commander series contains one book in which Jack and crew fend off attacks from kris waving pirates. It is closely based on a true event which staretd with a British shipwreck in ~1813. In the true life story the Captain manages to fend survive the accidental grounding on an unchartered reef, rescue his crew, deliver a VIP Envoy, organize an economy, and fend off heavy pirate attacks; not only do they survive but they do so without losing a single crew member - and on the way home the Captain even gets to meet with Napolian on Elba. The novel is greatly toned down; nobody would believe the real story even if it was true.

Perhaps the powers that be will pursuade Russel Crow to take a shot at a sequel to Master and Commander.

n2s

I read a cool passage in a biography of an ancestor of mine, Nathaniel Bowditch (mathematician, navigator, and a Salem ship captain in the spice trade in the late 18th C), about his first visit to Java. I should look up the port, etc., but he noticed that every one of the workers who came out in little boats to load pepper onto his ship had a keris stuck in the back of his waistband. This caused him some concern, so he insisted that only one boat be allowed to unload onto his ship at a time, and no more than three Malay be allowed on board at one time. Such was the reputation of Malay pirates at the time. The port folks were severely aggrevated, but he kept firm (basically said "there is pepper at the next port, so do it my way or get out of my way") and everything went smoothly. He was hardly a Russel Crowe swashbuckler -- quite a little egg-head, actually -- which makes the story all the more amusing.

VANDOO

7th March 2006, 08:04 PM

"ETHINOGRAPHIC ART" WILL ALWAYS HAVE WORTH AS LONG AS THERE ARE GALLERIES AND AUCTIONS SUCH AS SOUTHBYS AND CHRISTIES AND ANTIQUE ROADSHOW. MUCH IF NOT MOST OF THEIR SALES ARE FOR INVESTMENT POTENTIAL NOT JUST TO COLLECT BECAUSE YOU ARE INTERESTED AND LOVE THAT KIND OF STUFF.
THE ITEMS OFTEN BECOME VALUABLE BECAUSE THE CULTURES WHO PRODUCED THEM ARE EITHER GONE OR DON'T MAKE THINGS NEAR THE QUALITY AS THE OLD ORIGINAL ITEMS. LESS EXAMPLES OF A TYPE OF ITEM LEADS TO HIGHER PRICES DUE TO ITS RARITY SO WELL CRAFTED EXAMPLES SHOULD CONTINUE TO INCREASE.
COLLECTORS OF EDGED WEAPONS ARE ODDBALLS COMPARED TO MOST OF THE VERY NUMEROUS REDNECK CULTURE WHO ONLY DISCUSS,SPORTS,WOMEN,POWER TOOLS, CARS, TV PROGRAMS, FISHIN AND HUNTING :eek: BUT EVEN THEY OFTEN COLLECT FISHING LURES,GUNS, TOOLS AND SPORTS RELATED STUFF SO I GUESS THEY AREN'T ALL THAT DIFFERENT FROM US AFTER ALL :confused: WE ARE A SMALL MINORITY AS FAR AS COLLECTING GOES, THERE ARE MANY MORE STAMP AND COIN COLLECTORS EVEN ROCK AND FOSSIL COLLECTORS OUTNUMBER US. THATS GOOD AS IT LEAVES MORE STUFF FOR EACH OF US :D BUT AS THE POPULATION CONTINUES TO INCREASE I AM SURE THERE WILL BE PLENTY OF NEW COLLECTORS TO REPLACE US WHEN THEY GET BITTEN BY THE SAME BUG THAT BIT US. WITH THE INTERNET WE WILL ALSO HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF SELLING TO THE ENTIRE WORLD INSTEAD OF TO THE ONE WEIRD KID AT THE LOCAL GUN SHOW SO OUR POSSIBILITYS OF PASSING ON OUR COLLECTIONS ARE BETTER THAN IN THE PAST.

Titus Pullo

7th March 2006, 08:18 PM

I just do not understand this moral panic about antique weapon collecting, the weapons available at any DIY store or garden center are many. Like religion the weapon is harmless it is the person behind it that is dangerous. Tim.

I don't believe religeon plays a direct role behind the fundamentalist-extremists' politcal view and agenda. But what I do believe is religeons do give these people the courage and strength to carry out their evil, personal, political agenda. So it gives them the strength and courage to do, what they think, any violent demonstrations that is necessary.

Tim Simmons

7th March 2006, 08:28 PM

I would agree there, but I must say I was not necessarily thinking of acts of violence, we digress and the gods will be upon us. Tim

Rick

7th March 2006, 09:27 PM

I would agree there, but I must say I was not necessarily thinking of acts of violence, we digress and the gods will be upon us. Tim

Indeed they will . :cool:

Mark

7th March 2006, 11:59 PM

And .... we will end the little digression into theology RIGHT THERE, please. In the words of Bartok the bat, "It will only end in tears." :)

http://www.foxhome.com/anastasia/cha/assets/c_sbartokframe.jpg

I'm not as subtle as Rick. ;)

BSMStar

8th March 2006, 12:42 AM

It has been my experience in collecting that:

1. I start collecting…
2. It starts to catch on… the “I want one too” factor.
3. More become available, but the prices start to go up.
4. Reproductions find their way into the market place.
5. Prices end up “through the roof,” it becomes difficult to find good stuff.
6. Reproduction are good or better than the originals.
7. Its time to change fields for what I collect because of the fakes and the super high prices.

I have “cycled” through WWI, WWII, Vietnam and Soviet period militaria. I believe you will all find the above “cycle” has been true for all of these. Personally, I believe it will also be true for edged weapons. Dig in and hold on. You will not see this stuff again. If the prices go down (yea right), I am sure there are a number of us that will be happy to pick them up from you. :D :D :D

not2sharp

8th March 2006, 01:47 AM

If we want to continue to generate interest in our hobby we have to work on getting information out into the public. Unfortunately, there are very few venues dedicated to ethnographic weapon. Every so often we see a stray magazine article, and there are usually a few examples described in a dozen or so words scattered around major museums. But, we do not have a systematic voice, nor a media mechanism which would be attractive to non-collectors.

This is an example of what we should try to pull together.

http://www.museumofwebism.com/3DGalleryTest/index.htm

Imagine a virtual museum dedicated to the study of ethnographic weapons that can be accessible to collectors all around the net and which is populated with many thousands of examples cataloged into dozens of exhibition halls. Such would be the new Stone glossary for the 21th century. Perhaps we should build such a thing and call it the Cameron Stone Museum of Ethnographic Weapondry in his honor.

n2s

nechesh

8th March 2006, 04:30 AM

Tell me again exactly why i might want to generate interest in others in my hobby? Frankly i find there is quite enough competition for the weapons i collect. There will always be a percentage of the population with an interest in antique edged weapons, it is a part of our human nature to study such things. I don't think we need to create the interest or attempt to turm non-collectors into collectors. Personally, i don't collect keris as a monetary investment (ssshhh! that's not what i tell the wife! ;) ), but for my own personal enjoyment, study and (hopefully) understanding. Sure, it's nice to share in discussion and debate (thank you very much Vikingsword) and if i had children i am sure i would try to interest them in my passion. From time to time i encounter a friend who shares my interest. I think that as i age i will continue to encounter interested younger parties that i feel understand the keris enough to properly care for them and i very possibly might pass some blades along to these folks. I don't plan to have children so the people who recieve these keris will not just be getting an inheritance that that might simply sell off, but something they will prize and want to own. When i go i might very well bequeath the bulk of my collection to a museum (but they have to promise not to paint those little white numbers on them :D ).

not2sharp

8th March 2006, 04:42 AM

Tell me again exactly why i might want to generate interest in others in my hobby?

For one thing; there are probably dozens of examples of whatever you collect which were just ground down today to make a nice set of tent pegs for someone. The more we inform the more people come to appreciate the historical artifacts around them. Even if they don't persoanlly collect they would know enough to salvage and value some of these relics of the past.

For another; from shared experience comes shared learning. There is much we wish that we knew which will never come to light unless we have the ability to study a great many examples. While a virtual museum is not like having the items at hand; we can learn quite a bit to help us better date and catagorize these items. If we have a dozen sword which are similar enough to deduce that they were likely made by the same hands, and one turns up with a pedegree, then the whole lot benefits from that shared piece of infomation.

(btw - virtual museums will probably never ask you to add those little white numbers :rolleyes: )

n2s

nechesh

8th March 2006, 02:07 PM

n2s, i certainly wasn't arguing against your virtual museum idea, though i don't believe it will create new collectors or inform anyone who might choose to turn some keris into a "nice set of tent pegs". :eek: Why would such people bother to look at such a site. To find things like that on the internet you need to have at least enough interest to search it out. My point is that there are and probably always will be a precentage of people interested in this subject. They will continue to collect and find ways to talk about it with others (like your proposed site). But i don't feel the need to inform Joe Beerbottle that that old knife his uncle left him is a courtier's keris from the Mataram kingdom of Java. He is uninterested, not stupid, so he doesn't throw it away, he puts it up on ebay (the worlds marketplace). To him it's old junk that somebody might want. I am fine with him continuing to see it that way. I don't feel any great need to educate him. Now Jimmy Coolkife ( :rolleyes: ) Runs across an old keris in the attic that used to belong to grandpa. Old knives interest him so he does a little internet searching. Maybe he ends up at your virtual museum (or here :) ). I am more than happy to share experience with him and help him work out what he has. But i didn't have to create his interest, it was already there. And believe me, there are quite enough interested parties out there as can be proved by the number of times i've been beat at the auction block. :D
I say start up you virtual museum and i am sure others will join. I would probably get involved myself somewhere along the line. Still, while your vitual museum might not put little white numbers on my blades, it still doesn't solve the original question of this thread, which is what will happen to my PHYSICAL collection when i go. Those were the issues i was addressing.

BluErf

8th March 2006, 03:37 PM

Well , there is a very old Hollywood movie starring Gary Cooper and David Niven ; The Real Glory . Of course it is a slanted view of things but not a bad flick at all .
Made in 1939 available on videotape VHS digitally remastered with stereo sound .

Try :

filmwest@pacbell.net

Whoa, that's an old film! But to watch it, I've have to get a VHS player... Chucked the player about 10yrs ago... :D

BluErf

8th March 2006, 03:40 PM

ahem!
you dont have to be in your twenties to own an mp3 player.

.............do you? :confused:

Well, not really... but 90% are in their twenties, if not teens. :)

BluErf

8th March 2006, 03:46 PM

I say start up you virtual museum and i am sure others will join. I would probably get involved myself somewhere along the line. Still, while your vitual museum might not put little white numbers on my blades, it still doesn't solve the original question of this thread, which is what will happen to my PHYSICAL collection when i go. Those were the issues i was addressing.

We have a rudimentary virtual keris museum already!! :)

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=album31&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

And there are a few sites out there dedicated to Javanese kerises.

What happens to our physical collection depends on what we do -- we can leave it to rust, stowed away in the basement, forgotten. Or we could leave it to the 'mercy' of our children. Or we could donate them to the museum. Or we could find good 'homes' for them before we get too old. :)

A point I've always wanted to make is -- don't donate collections to the museum. What goes in seldom comes out (not the decent ones anyway), and no matter how well they are conserved, they are still confined to a 'storeroom' most of the time. I believe that there should good pieces out there, for the responsible and knowledgeable collectors to enjoy and care for.

VANDOO

8th March 2006, 04:05 PM

I AGREE THAT THE INTREST IS ALREADY THERE FOR YOU TO BECOME A COLLECTOR IT JUST NEEDS TO BE STIRRED BY SEEING SOMETHING COOL OR INTERESTING. IT WOULD BE SIMPLE TO INCREASE THE PRICE AND DEMAND FOR EDGED WEAPONS BUT NOT THE NUMBER OF REAL COLLECTORS. JUST HAVE A ANTIQUE ROADSHOW AND HAVE LOTS OF PEOPLE WITH SOME TYPE OF EDGED WEAPONS AND SAY THEY ALL FOUND THEM IN ATTICS, GARAGE SALES OR ESTATE SALES AND PAYED $10.00 FOR IT ,THE EXPERT THEN SAYS THIS IS A BLAH BLAH BLAH AND IS WORTH $100000.00 :eek:

THE BUY IT SELL IT GROUP WHICH VASTLY OUTNUMBER COLLECTORS WOULD SCOUR EVERY NOOK AND CRANNY IN THE COUNTRY, BIDDING WOULD GO CRAZYIER ON EBAY. THEN WOULD BE THE SMART TIME TO SELL OUT OUR COLLECTIONS BUT WHO EVER SAID A TRUE COLLECTOR WAS SMART ENOUGH TO LIKE MONEY MORE THAN HIS COLLECTION :D

THE IDEA OF A VIRTUAL STONES GLOSSARY IS A GOOD ONE AND WAS BROUGHT UP IN THE OLD FORUM POSTS IT MAY HAVE BEEN ONE I STARTED EARLY ON IF YOU WANT TO FIND IT USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION. I THINK CONOGRE WAS GATHERING PICTURES AND INFORMATION ALSO. THERE IS ENOUGH INFORMATION HERE IN THE VIKINGSWORD POSTS TO COMPILE QUITE A LARGE GLOSSARY IF SOMEONE WOULD TAKE ON THE MONUMENTAL TASK OF ORGANIZING IT. THE MEMBERS HERE COULD ALSO ADD MORE TO IT IF NECESSARY I HAVE BEEN COLLECTING INFORMATION FOR YEARS AND AM SURE OTHERS HAVE AS WELL. LARGE DEALERS LIKE ORIENTAL ARMS ARE SURE TO HAVE MORE REFRENCES AND KNOWLEGE THAN ONE WHO JUST COLLECTS, SO THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO SUPPLY SOME INFORMATION AS TIME WOULD PERMIT. THE BIG ADVANTAGE OF THE INTERNET FORMAT OVER A BOOK IS THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE TO ADD TO THE INFORMATION AND ALSO CORRECT ANY MISTAKES IF BETTER INFORMATION COMES ALONG LATER.

Rick

8th March 2006, 04:37 PM

I'm fairly convinced that this forum itself is a contributing force to driving up prices in most antique weapon selling venues .

nechesh

8th March 2006, 06:38 PM

What happens to our physical collection depends on what we do -- we can leave it to rust, stowed away in the basement, forgotten. Or we could leave it to the 'mercy' of our children. Or we could donate them to the museum. Or we could find good 'homes' for them before we get too old. :)

A point I've always wanted to make is -- don't donate collections to the museum. What goes in seldom comes out (not the decent ones anyway), and no matter how well they are conserved, they are still confined to a 'storeroom' most of the time. I believe that there should good pieces out there, for the responsible and knowledgeable collectors to enjoy and care for.

Alas Kai Wee, i tend to agree and i guess i am just hoping and praying that i might come across that different, more caring museum space before i go. Probably not likely. But perhaps there is a museum with an arms section out there that is sore in need of a keris display. You never know. Doing my best to find "good homes" for them is probably my main option. That means someone who respects a certain amount of tradition and is willing to periodically oil and cense the keris and be willing to find someone after them to do the same in turn. In a sense, to treat the keris like pusaka. Difficult i know, in this day and age, but not impossible. :)

nechesh

8th March 2006, 06:39 PM

I'm fairly convinced that this forum itself is a contributing force to driving up prices in most antique weapon selling venues .

All right everyone....now stop that, stop it right now! :D

BluErf

10th March 2006, 11:44 AM

I'm fairly convinced that this forum itself is a contributing force to driving up prices in most antique weapon selling venues .

Yes, and after a while, collectors will tend to home in on the same sort of pieces that were discussed and shared here... Not good, not good... :D

Andrew

10th March 2006, 01:14 PM

Move along, nothing to see here... :D

not2sharp

10th March 2006, 02:47 PM

In, the interest of protecting advantageous pricing, this forum should be re-focus to the discussion of ethnographic toilet seats.

http://i9.ebayimg.com/04/i/06/67/7a/31_12.JPG

Now here we have a fine 19th century example from New England..... :eek:

n2s

Rick

10th March 2006, 03:31 PM

nechesh

10th March 2006, 05:44 PM

Rick

10th March 2006, 08:13 PM

How does this bill currently before my state legislators strike you ?

http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/st01/st01384.htm

Hmmm ?

Tim Simmons

10th March 2006, 08:36 PM

I am a collector to so please do not get me wrong but to brazenly sport weapons in a civilised urban environment you deserve all the trouble you get. I do not go shopping for bread and milk brandishing a Khyber knife and I do not make my home at night with my parang. The bill does not outlaw the possession of a machete it just requires the appropriate common sense about the use and display in public. This is something we collectors usually do naturally and we are unlikely to feel the force of the law. Unfortunately there have been headline grabbing incidents where idiots cause problems. I can think of parallels in other aspects of society but they get away with it. Tim

Rick

10th March 2006, 09:21 PM

Chip , chip , chip ............

I see nothing in the bill relating to brazenly sporting weapons .

I do see a wide open definition of 'machete' .

I also see an attempt to register a bladed device .

Not to mention of course a ahem , yearly *registration fee* .

manicdj

12th March 2006, 09:14 PM

:eek: As Ariel said our kind of collecting is a sort of investment.

However I dissagree with him about the value decrease in the future. I honestly think that thoose nowdays kids who play games like Prince of Persia, Berserk, Ninja Gaiden ecc. and watch moovies like KillBill, Last Samurai ecc. at a certain age will be enthusiastic to buy some stuff they saw in thoose beloved games/films and they'll be prepared to pay big bucks for it (even more than we do today, 'cos we/you weren't not so much under the affect of the mass-media ;o). I think that interest in collecting will fall over the years, but the number of people who will be enraptured to put a pair of katana or shamshir on the wall will drastically increase due to thoose movies and games.

Beeig myself still pretty young (I've just turned 26 and I still play games and I'm certainlly not ashamed of that) I can confirm that all my coevals are shocked upon my collection. Further, I was selling a 3000$ katana made by osafune sukesada the previous week and I've sold it just yesterday to a pampered youngser just yesterday for a double price. When he saw my little collection he almost felt to a down, he wanted my 13 Luk Keris so badly, 'cos he had seen it in Prince of Persia (yes, games are sometimes stupid), but unfortunatelly it wasn't for sale :D (I regret it a little, thou).

So do not underestmate the power of modern media... Just take a look at the big bucks United Cuttlery and other licenciaries are doing by producing and selling sword and other regalia from the films. I guess that someone would be prepared to buy a real japanese gunto (also appeared in many movies) rather that thoose modern made trash, if he would KNOW that he can get it for just the double price...

Well I also predict an even greater increase of Nazi and Soviet memorabilia. Why? Well I guess that bad guys were always and will be for ever verry popular. :)

On the other hand I'm almost certain that stamps, coins, or more "stupid" things like pencils and lottery tickets or antique toalette paper (what the hell???) and all that meaningless stuff will fall into oblivion sooner or later.

Well, for the end, if you, older collectors have probblems with afterdeath disposal of your collections, I offer volounteer to take it over and I promise to maintain your collections properly :D :D :D I agree with the above, And the sobering thought is this,, for the kid's of today's age of teck toy's and gadgets, what will they do with sharp and pointy things they buy ?

ariel

12th March 2006, 09:46 PM

Whoa, that's an old film! But to watch it, I've have to get a VHS player... Chucked the player about 10yrs ago... :D

Sorry to say that, but this remark just underscores my point: we live in an era of replaceable things and holding on old objects that have no immediate practical value may not be the smartest startegy from the financial point of view. The next generations will look at us with faint amusement...
Do not get me wrong: I am a collector and this is my passion. I collect for myself and not for my ungrateful grandchildren. I do not do it for investment purposes but just for my own joy, for the love of history and for the pure pleasure of posessing the most beautiful objects of art I know. Nothing will change my attitude.
It is just the times are a'changing....
Hope I am wrong!!!

Emanuel

13th March 2006, 02:19 AM

I think some of you may have a flawed perception of kids. :) A 10-year old will not differentiate between the different styles of weapons and may prefer high-tech toys. A 12-18-year old will be attracted to swords due to media, as Valjhun said, but any interest will be fleeting as they have no money to sustain it. The 18+ year old has the ability to start collecting on his own and a good number of such youths will and do take up this activity. I got my first toy sword at 12. At 19 I got a modern repro of a medieval sword and a fanciful "kris sabre" unlike any true keris/kris. These got me wishing for the real thing and ebay became the incarnation of Santa. This wonderful forum and its members did the rest. "Kids" will always be attracted by the "real sword", and as soon as they'll have money and responsability, young people will start collecting. Education will ultimately refine this collection, and develop the love of history and culture.
Sword collecting may undergo waves of interest and deglect, but it will not die out. "Kids" may not know what to do with pointy weapons in this day of age, but young people do.

The legislation and registration business is indeed disconcerting :eek: but hopefully the powers that be will be made to realize their madness and cease this nonsense.

Andrew

13th March 2006, 02:23 AM

The legislation and registration business is indeed disconcerting :eek: but hopefully the powers that be will be made to realize their madness and cease this nonsense.

Unfortunately, it is a rare government, indeed, that increases the freedoms enjoyed by its citizens. :(

Valjhun

13th March 2006, 07:54 AM

Sorry to say that, but this remark just underscores my point: we live in an era of replaceable things and holding on old objects that have no immediate practical value may not be the smartest startegy from the financial point of view. The next generations will look at us with faint amusement...
Do not get me wrong: I am a collector and this is my passion. I collect for myself and not for my ungrateful grandchildren. I do not do it for investment purposes but just for my own joy, for the love of history and for the pure pleasure of posessing the most beautiful objects of art I know. Nothing will change my attitude.
It is just the times are a'changing....
Hope I am wrong!!!

Ariel,

The practical value of our objects is home and office decoration. And there will always be people with our incomparable taste. Someone might like the top artist sculptures and painting, others like us, like beautiful historic objects. At the top level, just compare Picasso to the japanese smith Masamune. I guess that there is more people that love Picasso today, but tomorrow? Personally I fail to attribute any beauty to Picasso, but that's an opinion. The fact is that looking from the most logical mind, where do you find more importancy? In a katana that was forged by a THE smith, regarded as the best cutting device ever, wich spilled the blood of many courageus men, wich is per se an object of exrtreme beauty, or an outrageus ugly piece of canvas wich was made by an semi-crazy sifillistic idle man? Well that's an extrem, I'm only trying to say that a antique arm has no less practical value that other objects of art...