Accidental collector - old weapons ID assistance (Yao?)

[Jampot10]

Hello,
I found these old daggers / knives ? in a box of rusty tools I inherited from an Aunt. Had no idea that she had them and thought they might be gardening objects at first but thinking probably weapons.
Have trawled the net for similar and I'm starting to see that these might be Afghan or Indian. Based on patterning to grips - but really only guessing!
Ivory handle one is 14 inches long / wooden handle is 17 inches long. Have seen one knife similar to the Ivory handled one but not as big / I think the wooden handled one might be more unusual ?
Any information welcome as not even sure on age or even if these are real weapons - they are heavy though so suspect they are.
Hopefully images will come with this post but new to this so if they don't will try and post again.
J

[Sajen]

Hello,

welcome to the forum! We have discussed this sort of knives before, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661&highlight=burma
Maybe this will be of help for you. I like your knife with the ivory handle. :)

Regards,
Detlef

[David R]

Very nice pieces, worth looking after.

[napoleon]

yes these i seem to think they are african cant remember why,but ive got one in a scabbard somewhere ill try and dig it out,does anyone actually know where these are from? :)

[Jampot10]

Thanks for all the help so far and for thread links.
Anyone able to give a definitive 19th or 20th century ?

[spiral]

Id guess as there different opinions over continents dating may be difficult. Id say definably pre.ww2 though... I wouldn't rule out late 19th century... etching to see the steel types would help that to a degree , I guess.

Looking at bolster & marks... this thread seems like they may be from a similar region...

spiral

linky (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=177301#post177301)

[Gavin Nugent]

Can't find it for the life of me but I do show a Kaskara with the stamps to the blade which these knives commonly carry...maybe someone else has the patience to dig through the posts.

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Gavin

[Sajen]

There are several threads where this knives are discussed and never someone was able to pin down the origin, I've read Skandinavian, North Africa, Central Asia, Burma and the North of India. I personally would say somewhere between the last three, they have an Asian appearance to my eyes and I nearly want to bet that we have to look here to find the exact origin. Maybe the maker stamps can help by this. :shrug:
Here can be seen more of this knives: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832&page=1&pp=30&highlight=khodmi

[Andrew]

Can't find it for the life of me but I do show a Kaskara with the stamps to the blade which these knives commonly carry...maybe someone else has the patience to dig through the posts.

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.

Gavin

Likely would require a complete forum software upgrade, Gav. :(

[ariel]

They were just discussed on a Russian forum Guns.ru

I thought they were SE Asian, but to my chagrin learned they were from West Africa, Yao tribe, Malawi. Apparently concentric circles are a dead giveaway.

[Oliver Pinchot]

Ariel, according to the Russian site, were there any other characteristics which place these daggers in W. Africa? The bird's eye motif-- those concentric circles with a point in the center-- are found in many locales, notably Afghanistan. I wouldn't attribute anything to a culture based solely on that characteristic.

[Martin Lubojacky]

I think (I really do not know, just estimate) the uverall shape is not African, either North or south of Sahara (after my 12 years spent and travelling there). The similiarity with chodmi is accidental. Despite the concentric circles.
Regards,
Martin

[Martin Lubojacky]

sorry, wanted to write neither north nor south

[Jampot10]

Again thank you for the comments posted. I find it really interesting that there are similar items about, this tends to suggest these are not one offs but a type specific to an area. Given this is it strange that these do not seem to have any formal identification ?
Or are they just so generic (simple) in style that they are a type that might have been used in various locations.
I guess as some have mentioned the key is the writing on the blades. I'm assuming this most likely to be a makers mark but maybe also a location or owner stamp.
I think this is what I will need to follow up - are there any linguists out there ?
These are the first knives I've owned ( purely through accident) but I can see already how this could become an obsessive hobby :)

[spiral]

It is strange, how little between us we know... There are dozens of these in existence, large numbers occurring in the UK.

You mentioned the Kaskara here Gav.

Would an advanced google search of just this forum for double searching terms, work?

linky.. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=133180&postcount=59)

But I cant find a kaskara in the thread..?

linky (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832)

& the one you linked to, is the same thread?

:shrug:

So I guess you either accidently got the link muddled or Ive mist another link in the thread where the Kaskara is shown?

To me the hilt looks , Dha from Assam?Burma?Thai regions, the riveted bolster looks NWF India, & the blade looks Burmese...

So I still guess Afghanistan to Laos, Tibet to Burma,

But it would be great if one day we can pin this down! :)

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Bummer Spiral....I did a two way link...well I thought I did...and I thought I linked the kaskara back to these threads too...when time permits...

[Emanuel]

Oh man, another one of these.

Google can search within websites by using the following syntax, then going to Images. It'll return all of the images from posts including the search word. This works with pretty much any website.

"site:www.vikingsword.com/vb kaskara" (https://www.google.ca/search?q=site:http://vikingsword.com/vb+kaskara&client=firefox-a&hs=xRS&rls=org.mozilla:en-US<img src=&quot;images/smilies/redface.gif&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; title=&quot;Embarrassment&quot; smilieid=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;inlineimg&quot; />fficial&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Jj9ZVN6PGYT9yQT234CgCQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=699)

I am still of the opinion that this is a North Indian / Assam / North Burmese piece, based on the bolster and the ivory handle. The circular motif is common to many different cultures around the world, and seen on the Bou-Saada daggers as well as on Afghan folding picks.

Here is an example from Akaal Arms (http://akaalarms.com/sold-huge-ivory-hilted-dagger-from-nw-india-or-afghanistan-ref-10162/) without the circles.
Attached some examples of Tibetan knives that share many of the features of these knives (two if them from oriental-Arms) including the circular motif, and the non-integral bolster/ferrule.

Here is the last big thread we had on these knives (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832)

Regards,
Emanuel

[spiral]

Yeah that's a shame Gav..... Easily done though... ;)

In truth the nearest blade on a quick search, I can find is this Burmese one...

Although yours is more advanced in fullereing, many similarities still I think?

From sold Items on your site...

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/images/s1109d.jpg

original past sales link... linky (http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s1109_full.html)

Although I have seen similar fullering on Tibetan, Nepali & also Balkan blades.... :shrug:

But riveted bolster that looks integral but isn't, Ive only seen NWF & surrounding area? As best I can currently recall..

spiral

[ariel]

Apparently, same knife is featured in Tirri's book on African weapons. Also, they are apparently exhibited in the British Museum with full provenance.
I did not check it, not my area of interest, but whoever wants to dig into it, is more than welcome.

[Lee]

Mods/Webmaster, a double drill down word search ability would certainly help with digging and research, i.e; once a word search is done and the list of posts is provided, there is another search function specifically available for those links presented.Use Google as I do when looking for old threads...

Exactly as Emanuel shows
"site:www.vikingsword.com/vb kaskara"

/vb - new forum
/ubb - archive forum
or omit for site-wide

[DaveA]

Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal.

By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested.

I have seen the dot-in-circle motif on Bou Saada Kodmi from Algeria, a folding lohar from Afghanistan, and a bichaq from Bosnia. I'll wager there are many more examples from all over the world!

Based on the hilt's pommel shape, I'll wager on the Tibet/Burma/Assam region.

Best,

Dave A.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Emanuel & Lee.

Here is a round the world trip.

From blade markings in other links about these knives there is this Kaskara with similar blade stamps;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=94044&stc=1

For the Dao looking axes here is a very nice unmarked example with the sale collar;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5759
With this knife type we discuss and that these things have carried similar marks, Ivory, Africa and circles brings me back to Africa, but wait there is more :)

Although not identical, the deep stamp markings are interesting on the Sudan dagger in post 15 by Lee
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=111

Then I see Jen's post in 10 & 13
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3481
Which is clearly from India

So a short trip around the world, India or Africa...I still feel my bones Africa but British India certainly had the Tooling abilities to turn these out too..

Ponderous

Gavin

[Jampot10]

Pretty sure I've now managed to identify a provenance for these. Many thanks to Ariel who pointed out the direction of British Museum which helped immensely.

Looks like the blades are almost definitely East African - Yao tribe manufactured Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area.

I'll start a new post headed - Yao tribal Knives and put up my reasoning for discussion.

[Jampot10]

I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers.
My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin.
I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but :

British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions.

Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation hence the new thread?

For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification.

The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century.

Please let me know your thoughts ?

[Gavin Nugent]

Well done. To save confusion, please link the threads and or place this information provided in the original thread

[spiral]

Excellent!... to keep some continuity for the thread... Heres the BM link. {Below...}

So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating!

Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa. :shrug: {The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc....

Spiral


link.. (http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/search.aspx?searchText=yao+knife)

[Jens Nordlunde]

My vague guess would have been India.
You should however consider, that India from ancient times had a lot of sea trading from the north of Africa to Madagascar, and maybe even further south. Trading for slaves and ivory - which is said to be stronger than the Indian ivory.
Jens

[Tim Simmons]

Hmmm, Still not convinced. Not that I know better. But look at the top Asian knife in the online collection. Through out the history of this site, time and time again examples of prestigious museum miss-identification have been brought to light.

[spiral]

I know what you mean Tim, but personally ill accept it for these... 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region...

Unless someone can provide further evidence?

can someone merge these threads? as they are will just add further confusion to a possibly solved riddle...

:shrug:

spiral

ps.

I guess that's nothing new though... :D

[Shakethetrees]

[QUOTE]

Another example of the dot-in-circle decoration. This one on a kukri from northern India or possibly Nepal.

By the way, if anyone can suggest a method to repair the missing bone surface you see (maybe it was once covered with a brass device?) I am very interested.
[QUOTE]


There isn't trick or shortcut. A piece of bone has to becut and fit, the circles and brass plugs have to be set just as they were done back when it was made.

[spiral]

To add to the confusion most of the Nepali tourist kukri that look like that, even those being sold in Nepal are actually Chinese made fakes... & were even 10 years ago...

spiral

[Emanuel]

I am not at all convinced that these knives are make by the Yao, not considering the rest of that material culture. This knife type doesn't fit anything produced natively in East Africa. I am not yet aware of any single-edged knife with this blade, bolster and partial tang construction anywhere in Africa.

This knife type does, fit into North Indian and Central Asian material culture. Considering the large Gujarati Indian Diaspora in East Africa, I can certainly see these knives being sold in Mozambique from an Indian source. I cannot, however, see these as being made by East African smiths, it's not within their style :shrug:

I would say look carefully at the blade profile and section, the bolster assembly, and the tang connection. Then look into the very peculiar stamps, which appear to be standardized.

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

Here are a few more from Oriental-Arms labeled as Afghan or Pakistani.

[Emanuel]

Another one...

[Emanuel]

And a last one...

[Jampot10]

The identification is based purely on research using the British Museum. I'm relying on their archive accuracy but I find it compelling that they have several separate donors for very similar knives giving the same source location.

Copied from other thread.

I posted these a couple of days ago asking for Id help - thanks to everyone that replied. Ariel suggested checking British Museum and a search of the online archive provided the answers.
My view is that these are East African , Malawi / Mozambique / Tanzania area and would even go as far as to say they are Yao tribe origin.
I'm fairly confident of the attribution but for those that have time - please check the Britsh Museum online image archive. Dont think I'm allowed to give a link but :

British Museum home page - Collection online - Knife ivory ( in search box) - tick images only - then search. Scroll through the page and there will be at least 5 or 6 knives very similar to the Ivory one with strong attributions.

Perhaps there needs to be some further discussion about this before confirmation.

For those like me that originally suggested the Asian regions , the Yao tribe built up strong links with slave traders throughout the 19th century eventually converting to Islam around turn of 20th century. This might explain why the knives have influences from both cultures - which caused the difficulties in identification.

The items held by the British museum were mostly gifted in the 1920's and 40's. These were from the estates of persons that were in Africa in a colonial capacity at or around the turn of the century.

Please let me know your thoughts ?

[Emanuel]

Now here is a cruder form previously discussed on this forum and considered to be Afghan.

[Emanuel]

Some thoughts...

Note that the blade is very similar to some short Burmese dha knives in both profile and execution:
- single-edged
- slight droop towards the edge
- well executed fullers on the good example, but flat blade on cruder examples

Note the bolster construction which appears to borrow both from Nepalese khukri bolsters, and from Tibetan knives, with a rivet through the bolster well brushed and hidden.

The tang construction is unique in that the tang maintains the same section as the blade and is not hidden inside the handle, which has a slot to received it. So far, only the crude Afghan knife above features this tang construction. Otherwise the Tibetan knives feature slab/scale handles, while most khukri and Burmese handles have a hole inside to receive a narrower rat-tail tang. Khukri with slab/scale handles appear in WWII with the British pattern MK2.

The circular decorative motif on the handle and sometimes scabbard straps is not a helpful feature in establishing the origin of these knives as it has already been shown many many times on this forum that it is extremely widespread to different cultures around the world.

The stamped markings at the base of the blade are like nothing else. They closely resemble flags or maritime symbols to me. The marks are repeated 2-3 times and look like they were struck by the same punch. This suggests a standardized manufacture to me, not simple village production.

Emanuel

[spiral]

I obviously always thought these NWF, Assam, Burma maybe surrounding regions...

That being Due to there details of manufacture... the only discrepancy being the exposed partial tang, that is historically usually European..

But personally ill accept Malawi etc. for these... as 3 out of 4 are provenanced to separate donors, all of whom only donated items from that region...

Unless or Until someone proves there from the Yao in Burma or some Indian manufacture etc.

Indian manufacture in Africa could make more sense to me?

But until that time I have to go with available apparently provenaced pieces originally from 3 separate collections, unless some one can dig up another pre.ww2 reference or reliable provenance to prove the BM have got 3 accessions incorrectly listed to donors or they are made by Indian smiths in Africa, etc.etc.

When I look at other African Yao stuff I see no similarity... Strangely the Lao Dao from Burma looks closer.

Who can find more evidence... there must be other old collections with these?

Fernando... Are there any Portuguese museum collections of relevance you can access?

spiral

[Sajen]

So Yao or at least "in the style of" knives... Fascinating!

Who would have guessed Malawi! south Africa. :shrug: {The continent not the country...} Seems I was miles out with Burma etc....

I am with you Spiral! :eek: ;)

[Martin Lubojacky]

When it is marked out by such important museum (and motivated by donor´s legends), it is difficult to object. But, in any case, there is something strange in it. Look at another yao knives, which are more conformable to i.g. Shona style. Rivets instead of tongue in that part of Africa ...(?), such collar .... As far as me - the overal shape is more similar to Japanese fishermen boat knives (I knowingly talk a bit; I would vote to Burma or something Central Asian), than to African styles which I met till now. But, the life is neverending study...

I mentioned following story here before, so I apologize: cca 20 years ago I have given my nice knife from Finland to my friend, who was travelling to Ongota tribe in southern Ethiopia. My friend was linguist and he studdied those tribes. Once he was present to the childbirth there and so - he became something like godfather. So I gave him the Finland knife when he was going to visit the willage and to call on the boy after years - since he did not have any suitable gift with him. I hope nobody will donate this Finland knife to any museum as tradditional Ongota knife. I know this differs from the Yao case and I do not want to flout authorities, but, there could be something similar in it ...

[Andrew]

In my personal opinion, these are not continental SEA. The general blade profile, fullering and ivory handles are strikingly similar to knives from the region, but the differences are more edifying--the partially exposed tang and bolsters are definitively not correct for that region.

Other than this observation of questionable value, I am clueless as to origin. :shrug:

[Sajen]

I still have problems to believe that this knives are from Africa, museums are often wrong by descriptions.
Nepal could be a facility, look for example this ram-dao taken from this forum: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29611&PN=3
See special the mark on the blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[Tim Simmons]

I am with you Detlef. African knife makers make the most crude and some of the most wonderful quality knives but this is not one from Africa. How and why the museum has it wrong I do not know?

[colin henshaw]

I don't see any way these knives could have been made in Sub-Saharan Africa. Maybe some made their way to East Africa from the Indian sub-continent, either as gifts to native chiefs, or trade items etc. The other possibility is simply that the museum got their attributions mixed up somehow.

[Gavin Nugent]

I am with you Detlef. African knife makers make the most crude and some of the most wonderful quality knives but this is not one from Africa. How and why the museum has it wrong I do not know?

You guys are forgetting the colonial powers at play here...

[spiral]

I certainly perceive the tang style as European , but if Wikipedia is to be believed the Yao resisted, The Brits, Germans & Portuguese. {If so they did well...}

They were Muslim slave & ivory traders trading with the Arabs... If this is correct perhaps they where originally traded there by the Arabs, along with the guns they gave them?

Obviously the Wicky article may not be entirely correct either...

I do believe they were found in Yao territory, but I don't believe the Yao made them.

spiral

[Martin Lubojacky]

I think there were deep (slave and ivory) expeeditions to the African interior organized from Zanzibar (under influence of Omani Arabs) in 19th century. In Stone Town you can find collection of mainly Congo weapons brought at that time

[Gavin Nugent]

I certainly perceive the tang style as European , but if Wikipedia is to be believed the Yao resisted, The Brits, Germans & Portuguese. {If so they did well...}

They were Muslim slave & ivory traders trading with the Arabs... If this is correct perhaps they where originally traded there by the Arabs, along with the guns they gave them?

Obviously the Wicky article may not be entirely correct either...

I do believe they were found in Yao territory, but I don't believe the Yao made them.

spiral

Interesting too are some connections. The Yao areas were Annexed by the Brits in the late 19th century, formally a little after. They too had Sikh soldiers in there as their forces....
Interesting are the blade marks on clearly African Weapons, i.e; the Kaskara and the axe of Tim's and also Jen's Tulwar...
There was a massive amount of trade throughout the regions...Yao hands may have made these but under direction of EU occupation I am sure.
With a guess for consideration too, the Malawi facial tattoos of the region in most cases, loosely bear a resemblance to the blade stamps on these knives.

[spiral]

Interesting stuff chaps!

Many of the NW & NWF type kukri bolster with the hidden rivet {of the same style as these knives.} were probably made by Sikhs....

Another factor as well as the possibility of Arab traders would be the Scottish based " African Lakes Company Limited" in 1878, to support missionaries & trade in ivory & store goods along the shores of Lake Nyasa and in the Lower Shire Valley in the late 1870s and early 1880s. They were heavily based on river transport.

They apparently wouldn't give the natives guns in trade {unlike the Arab slave & ivory buyers.} But I wonder if they had something, to do with these? Whether made locally, {which I doubt, but I could be wrong.} imported on made by imported labour... After all anywhere the British were the Indian traders & crafts people soon followed.

spiral

[Jampot10]

Yes Spiral - I have really enjoyed how this discussion has developed.

Arab influence in East Africa was huge from the mid 18th century onwards. Driven initially around the slave trade by the middle east Sultanates. If you look at Zanzibar for instance this was effectively controlled by the Sultan of Oman from around 1700 - 1890 when it became a British protectorate. Dar-Es- Salaam was originally an Arab built city in 1865. If they're building cities, I really can't see why these weapons couldn't have been produced by Arabs in Africa.

I do understand though why those with more knowledge than me point out that these are not normal blades associated with African tribal production.

Again open to interpretation but have a look at the pictures below, - the screen capture is Arabic script and the meaning of the word is "Attack" . Is it just me or is there similarity to the stamps on one of the blades ? Even if my translation is wrong it would seem to be Arabic script - maybe someone on the forum knows more ?

As a last thing I showed my knives to an established collector who lives in my village. The majority of this discussion has been about the Ivory one so far but his opinion was that the larger knife might actually be horn handled not wooden. This may well impact again on location of manufacture. Apparently there is a weapons event soon and my friend is going to take them up to show to his colleagues so this might generate more to talk about.
J

[Tim Simmons]

Most interesting. Also a great amount of WW! Indian troops in East Africa. The WW1 Africa theater is sadly not well documented by historians.

[colin henshaw]

A small piece of interest on this subject (though perhaps not very relevant) - the famous African guide to several European 19th century explorers - "Sidi Mubarak Bombay" was a Yao tribesman. He spent several years in India as a young man, after having been captured as a slave when a child...

[spiral]

Jampot, I can see why you sy it but if it was Arabic script, many people on the website could read it.... ;)

That's interesting Colin...

Found a few photos & drawings of him, including this one hoping to see him wearing such a knife. {longshot obviously.} :shrug:

But the visible sword, once again just looks European rather than African.

But all good knowledge & grist to the mill as they say in Yorkshire... ;)

Spiral

[ariel]

I was also convinced that these knives were SE Asian.
But to deny their Malawi origin, I have to deny
A. Reputation and expertise of the British Museum, and
B. Testimony of 3 separate witnesses (donors) attributing each one of them to the same area in Africa.


Also, we are unaware of any other place in the world where similar type is found, weakening theory of their imported origin.

[spiral]

I totally agree with points A & B Ariel, & more or less agree with your third point. {Not that that rules it out.} Many wonderfull things made in Sheffield that many are/were unaware of Kachin Dow etc.

But could produced in Africa by Immigrant workers? :shrug: That seems quite likely to me?

Failing that, produced in Africa by locals after an suitable apprenticeship would seem the only other likely possibility?


spiral

[colin henshaw]

Interestingly, this type of knife also appears on the National Museum of Scotland website, as coming from Malawi. H'mm, perhaps a rethink is required...

[Tim Simmons]

I can see how over generations of museum staff might perpetuate an original cataloging error, if this is the case? Future reference could then also be wrong. Having worked for the British Museum I know that not all ethnographic collection and donations {especially Africa ealier in the 20th century} were accurately recorded at the time of coming into collection, but often done many years later. This is a very confusing situation. The ram doa is surely an Asian artifact. What are we to make of the knives that are clearly derived from it, we cannot deny that? :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

Tim, I think you were on the right path originally in this thread, meaning African.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

You also mention Ram Dao, but they are95% heavier forward curved weapons with the absence of such markings, nor are the markings to blade or hilt shared by other weapons of the regions of India or SEA.

Its hard to ignore the Kaskara stamp I presented when it looks so much like these;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16661&highlight=burma

There is also the pommel in post 56, page two here, nothing Asian in its shape;http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14832&page=2&pp=30&highlight=khodmi

I am certain Central Asia can be dismissed.

To better support the origins, those with them could subject the hilts to scientific examination, ie African or Asian ivory....of course one could refute the data says ivory was heavily traded but I think with all the information at hand the origins have been firmly placed for now and this may support Africa too.

If an Asian flavour is felt in this knife, which I see by profile, both the English and the Sikhs with them were heavily found in Burma...perhaps just an industrious Brit with other service abroad was making some coin on the side as it is not a pure African creation by style?

[ariel]

It is impossible to exclude outside influence, immigrant manufacturer or skills acquired elsewhere.
But let's agree that the place of production was in Malawi and that the construction is not purely SE Asian ( as per Andrew) and not Afghani.

I am even willing to go farther: the incredible uniformity of these knives, their radical distinctness from the traditional local examples and their closeness of dating may (may!) suggest a single shop, perhaps even short-lived.

[spiral]

I concur these occur from Malawi, & perhaps were made there under either British or Indian supervision.

There are many others of related style, but lesser quality, Ive just found on a English dealers for sale website.

Obviously I cant link to or post them here, due to forum rules.

But if anyone would like the photos of several others including some possibly of more primitive style, Then just send me an email at spiraltwista@aol.com & Ill forward the photos. {Put Yao in the email title, so they don't go to spam..}

spiral

[Richard G]

I'm in agreement with Spiral's original thoughts here. I once saw a similar knife described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, unfortunately, with no further detail. But this could explain a lot.
The "unafricanness", because of the Arab\Persian\Indian influence on the Swahili, indeed the presence of Arabs etc. on the East African coast.
The presence in Malawi, because of the trading links the Swahili had with the interior. Indeed places such as Tabora in Tanzania are described as originally "Arab" settlements, by which is meant coastal Swahili and followers. Any knife made there would be unlikely to follow the local African tradition. They do not even have to be trade items. Reading early journals of exploration in East and Central Africa one is struck by the incessant giving of presents ("hongo") necessary to get anywhere or anything done. Such a present could, and did, take the form of personal possessions and weaponry, if that is what the local chieftain desired.
The threads on Omani daggers have concluded, perhaps not with 100 o/o certainty, that many daggers collected in and attributed to Oman are in fact Saudi Arabian, which illustrates the danger of conflating the place of collection with the place of origin.
I would also like to mention the well known, but also slightly mysterious "Zanzibar" nimcha. This also doesn't seem to bear any relationship to any other sub-saharan African weapon, and although photo's can be found of Swahili Arabs with these or similar nimchas no one seems to know where they were actually made.
These knives and the Zanzibar nimcha are not common, but neither could you call them rare, thus I surmise they are a "type" rather than an individual manufacture. I would suggest a Swahili origin, being African but with very significant Asian influences would fit the bill.
Regards
Richard

[spiral]

Certainly possible Richard, .....

More evidence required!

Any listed in pre.ww2 sales catalogue's anyone?

spiral

[Sajen]

This one was offered by ebay but wasn't sold. Remarkable is that the handle material seems to be from hippo ivory. Pictures from the seller.

[Jampot10]

Good find Sajen.

This is a link to some Ivory jewellery from Malawi attributed to the Zomba region which was settled by the Yao. The decoration is very similar to the weapon you show and identical to the designs on my knives.

linky (http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=595392&partId=1&people=35305&peoA=35305-3-9&page=1)

This picture is of Hugh Stannus Stannus one of the key donors to the BM that helps with the placement of these knives. Hugh Stannus Stannus 1877-1957 was medical officer to the King's African Rifles from 1905-1914 whilst they were based in British Central Africa (Malawi). He also published a written work on the Wa-Yao people in 1922 and was a well recognised expert in African study.

There is a more detailed description of Stannus and his work here linky (http://munksroll.rcplondon.ac.uk/Biography/Details/4218)

[russel]

This one was offered by ebay but wasn't sold. Remarkable is that the handle material seems to be from hippo ivory. Pictures from the seller.

I had been watching this on too Detlef, and was just about to post the images myself, you beat me to it. I too noticed the Hippopotamus ivory. The scabbard construction, while by no means necessarily original, seems to me to be very African in style and finish.

Both the Hippopotamus ivory and scabbard tend to support an African origin as discussed above. I have wanted one of these, but like others had believed Burma/Assam to be the origin. My opinion is now starting to change - but I still want one.

[spiral]

Great stuff Sajen & indeed Jampot... well spotted!

Its obviously the same chap who brought this one back.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN01562/AN01562253_001_l.jpg?width=304

So I think the Yao/ Malawi finding of these is above reproach myself.

Just who made/sold them, is the last bit of the puzzle.

I still think the African trading Company could be plausible! But so could other Indian or British entrepreneurs, The to me seem a bit late in dating for them to be from Arab slave trade, but in truth I guess that carried on a for a long time, just as slavery still does today...

spiral

[Sajen]

Yes, indeed, it seems that we all have been wrong with our believe of Asian origin for this daggers. :eek:

[Gavin Nugent]

GOLD STAR Jampot! Great detective work.

Quote:

African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?

Gav :D


I'll settle for a silver star

Thor might have saved us all the trouble some time back as looking back each and every one looks hippo now that Sajen ponted this out....

[spiral]

GOLD STAR Jampot! Great detective work.

Quote:

:D


African gets my vote, I have seen this confirmed but I can't recall...Algeria?


I'll settle for a silver star

Bronze star I think Gav. ;) Algeria as far away as India from Malawi I reckon! :D ;)

Thor might have saved us all the trouble some time back as looking back each and every one looks hippo now that Sajen ponted this out....

Damn... hippo pegs! Wonder what the horn ones are?


They were just discussed on a Russian forum Guns.ru

I thought they were SE Asian, but to my chagrin learned they were from West Africa, Yao tribe, Malawi. Apparently concentric circles are a dead giveaway.


Another Gold star for Ariel I think though... :)



spiral

[ariel]

Thanks, but the Gold goes to my Russian colleagues who identified it. I was just a messenger.

[Richard G]

The good old Pitt Rivers Museum (Oxford) never disappoints.
Regards
Richard
http://databases.prm.ox.ac.uk/fmi/iwp/cgi?-db=objects_online&-loadframes

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I'm in agreement with Spiral's original thoughts here. I once saw a similar knife described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, unfortunately, with no further detail. But this could explain a lot.
The "unafricanness", because of the Arab\Persian\Indian influence on the Swahili, indeed the presence of Arabs etc. on the East African coast.
The presence in Malawi, because of the trading links the Swahili had with the interior. Indeed places such as Tabora in Tanzania are described as originally "Arab" settlements, by which is meant coastal Swahili and followers. Any knife made there would be unlikely to follow the local African tradition. They do not even have to be trade items. Reading early journals of exploration in East and Central Africa one is struck by the incessant giving of presents ("hongo") necessary to get anywhere or anything done. Such a present could, and did, take the form of personal possessions and weaponry, if that is what the local chieftain desired.
The threads on Omani daggers have concluded, perhaps not with 100 o/o certainty, that many daggers collected in and attributed to Oman are in fact Saudi Arabian, which illustrates the danger of conflating the place of collection with the place of origin.
I would also like to mention the well known, but also slightly mysterious "Zanzibar" nimcha. This also doesn't seem to bear any relationship to any other sub-saharan African weapon, and although photo's can be found of Swahili Arabs with these or similar nimchas no one seems to know where they were actually made.
These knives and the Zanzibar nimcha are not common, but neither could you call them rare, thus I surmise they are a "type" rather than an individual manufacture. I would suggest a Swahili origin, being African but with very significant Asian influences would fit the bill.
Regards
Richard

Salaams Richard G.... In what capacity do you assume Omani Daggers originate in the Saudia Region? ... Did you look at my extensive thread Omani Khanjars? I cant recall mentioning any such thing. In fact it isn't true. They don't. What there is on research indicates that the Royal Khanjar and the Muscat Khanjar did a certain amount of migrating to Saudia in one case stepping stone to Saudia via the Yemen and in another probably linked via the big trade and slaver caravan camel trains to the eastern region of what is now KSA from Buraimi Oman. So far as I am aware ... no reverse influence occurred. The swords and Daggers are totally different suggesting that they developed independently in Oman centuries ago(in fact in both countries independant of each other and quite unrelated except in the 2 cases I have noted). However if you can suggest a link I would be delighted to investigate it.
I would imagine that the Nimcha you speak of from Zanzibar is well enough researched to point to manufacture and style variation related to other Nimchas as illustrated in Butin..in Forum Library. I think it unwise to rely upon photographs as you will find ...there aren't that many... something typically found in research in the Arab regions generally. Going beyond photos we rely on sketches ...but then when they run dry it is often traditional, passed down word of mouth which is almost impossible to prove ...and which has been totally ignored by all of the old explorers into the region..That then is the dilemma we run against in deep research here...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Sajen]

Thor might have saved us all the trouble some time back as looking back each and every one looks hippo now that Sajen ponted this out....

I don't think that the hippo ivory is a good proof for the African origin, you can find this material in Malaysia, Indonesia or also the Philippines.
But the necklace Jampot have shown by link is a good one which was conclusive IMO. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Jampot10]

SAW - Many thanks for Gold Star, will bear it proudly !

Richard G - River Pitts museum great resource, just been through Malawi exhibits and plenty more supporting evidence.

Spiral - reference the horn one could you have a look at this and tell me what you think. Not sure if they would have used this material for a knife grip but looks very similar in colour and density? Also contains same sort of pigmented decoration.



link (http://objects.prm.ox.ac.uk/pages/PRMUID63047.html)

[spiral]

The good old Pitt Rivers Museum (Oxford) never disappoints.
Regards
Richard
http://databases.prm.ox.ac.uk/fmi/iwp/cgi?-db=objects_online&-loadframes

Thanks Richard, sadly my pc seems not to work with there database... what software is required to show there data. files?

spiral

[spiral]

Thanks, but the Gold goes to my Russian colleagues who identified it. I was just a messenger.

Much research in the classroom is just finding a source. ;) You've still got a gold star. despite you being a member of the usually English Self depreciating society. :eek:

But yes your Russian colleagues certainly deserve a gold star as well! :)

spiral

[Richard G]

Spiral,
I don't think I have any special software, but in my setup, Windows Vista and Google Chrome, you do have to untick the pop up blocker in Google Chrome if you want to see the individual item. I had no trouble doing the search and getting to the list I hope you could see. For reasons beyond my savvy, I noticed some pictures appeared in the "pop up" which were not on the original search results'
Hope this helps.
Richard

[spiral]

Ahh Many thanks Richard, Im on windows 8.1 but was using explorer. Ill give chrome a try on it. ;)

spiral

ps.. great chrome works with it indeed!

A lovely example!

Acquired in Malawi 3 September 1893. bought at auction 1901..

Interestingly the steel is clearly more primitive at this date...


I rather suspect the Scots Run African company , had these made on locally, with British/Indian overseers... { Based on no evidence whatsoever though...:shrug: }

spiral

[Richard G]

Ibrahim,
I fear I have not explained my thoughts clearly. What I meant is that certain jambiyas/khunjars that appear in reference books and whose attributed origin many of us accepted as fact turns out out be doubtful, at best.

For example the Ruth Hawley dagger, attributed to Oman and probably the Sharqiyah in particular.
Why?, almost certainly because it was collected there.
Now we think it is probably Saudi Arabian.
Why?, because it has the characteristics of a Saudi Arabian dagger.
Explanation. A Saudi Arabian type of jambiya made in Oman? or a Saudi Arabian jambiya that has found its way into the Oman?
If it was made in Oman it is an Omani dagger, if it was made in Saudi Arabia and collected in Oman it still remains a Saudi Arabian dagger. Do we know which it is?

My point as regards these Malawi daggers was that just because they were collected in Malawi does not necessarily mean they were made in Malawi.
I now accept that the available evidence strongly suggests they were made in Malawi, but I still think they are not typically sub-saharan African, and it would be interesting to know why.
Regards
Richard

[spiral]

in Malawi, but I still think they are not typically sub-saharan African, and it would be interesting to know why.
Regards
Richard

I agree there definably not tribal pieces...

I suspect the African company as majors traders & dealers of store goods 7 ivory may be the culprits...

But without evidence other Brit. Indian or Arab entrepreneurs could be involved.

Although hippo ivory was sold internationally , I suspect the use of small peg teeth implies local manufacture, despite the European trade knife tang & western Himalayan region type bolster... Which probably just ids the origin of the men who ran the business or businesses that had these made in Malawi...

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

I don't think that the hippo ivory is a good proof for the African origin, you can find this material in Malaysia, Indonesia or also the Philippines.
But the necklace Jampot have shown by link is a good one which was conclusive IMO. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

Indeed Detlef, I covered off ivory trade in an earlier post and how easily this point can be refuted but these other regions you note do not manufacture to these designs.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahim,
I fear I have not explained my thoughts clearly. What I meant is that certain jambiyas/khunjars that appear in reference books and whose attributed origin many of us accepted as fact turns out out be doubtful, at best.

For example the Ruth Hawley dagger, attributed to Oman and probably the Sharqiyah in particular.
Why?, almost certainly because it was collected there.
Now we think it is probably Saudi Arabian.
Why?, because it has the characteristics of a Saudi Arabian dagger.
Explanation. A Saudi Arabian type of jambiya made in Oman? or a Saudi Arabian jambiya that has found its way into the Oman?
If it was made in Oman it is an Omani dagger, if it was made in Saudi Arabia and collected in Oman it still remains a Saudi Arabian dagger. Do we know which it is?

My point as regards these Malawi daggers was that just because they were collected in Malawi does not necessarily mean they were made in Malawi.
I now accept that the available evidence strongly suggests they were made in Malawi, but I still think they are not typically sub-saharan African, and it would be interesting to know why.
Regards
Richard


Salaams Richard G; With apologies for interjecting some detail not related to the current thread topic..which I find quite interesting by the way... The little pamphlet by Ruth Hawley set the benchmark for research on all things Omani Silver. The historical content is excellent but as you point out and we now know... that wayward item... in fact a Yemeni weapon from the Asir now an area included in the country of KSA but a style clearly linked to the Omani Royal Khanjar through trade. The Thread on Omani Khanjars refers.

So convincing was this Asir weapon style that for years even www.omanisilver.com was fooled into thinking that these were Omani. There is, however, no link in reverse except in the case of a dagger seen in Yemen and almost identical to the Omani Salalah item but that is not in this equation... I can safely state that no such migration of style is apparent in any Saudi style directly upon the weaponry of Oman.. It didn't happen. The only far and distant blade movement across the entire region is in a deep study concerning ancient swords that probably originated in Hadramaut possibly in the 7th Century AD and which were derivatives of the religious weapon at the beginning of Islam... but that is so far in the past and convoluted as to be beyond this conversation...

Regarding book publications on the subject of Omani Khanjars; There aren't any I could suggest as being anywhere near accurate though some detail is correctly recorded in the work by Richardson and Dorr but it is by no means a complete picture...and the reason is that Oman only emerged onto the modern world stage only in 1970. Research as discovered by Ruth Hawley in her otherwise brilliant little book was done without a safety net and virtually with no proper in country museum or historical documentation to hand at that time. Whilst the more recent Richardson and Dorr is more informative it is still only broad brush in detail thus a comprehensive study is still required.

Your first paragraph is indeed true.. How many times have we seen weapons illustrated by famous explorers and ethnographic specialists with otherwise quite impeccable records turn out to be not factual... One that springs to mind is the S'boula said by the respected historian Burton to have been "of Zanzibar"....when it was nothing of the sort !... but of course in those days how much more difficult it was to travel to dangerous places...and to get out alive was not easy.

But therein lies the conundrum...does it not? That Forum is there to research and penetrate those dark corners/ shine a light and debate the myths and legends and sort out the truth..Is it not every Forumites mission in life to dig up the facts...expose the mistakes and discover new angles on this fascinating detective story...and even along the way to learn a little of the history...and possibly share it with others and the Library...and if the anvil gets a little bit heated in the process ...so what? Is that not what a Forum should do? :shrug: (5 quid to the first moronic reply ...)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Tim Simmons]

What a lot of fun! really good. :cool:

[Jampot10]

Good Morning or maybe evening for some !

Now it looks like we're thinking the ivory handles are Hippo - I have to say looking at these in the flesh they are much whiter and smoother to touch than previous Ivory I've seen.

My next task is trying to pin down what the handle on the larger knife might be. The original pictures were poor and taken indoors under artificial light. These ones are outside, natural light only and hopefully much clearer. There seems to be a kind of yellow - orange colour alongside the darker features of the handle.

The white speck in one of the pictures is paint - shame but I did find these in an old tool box so can't complain.

Would anyone be willing to give an opinion on material ?

[Gavin Nugent]

An interesting material.

It could be bovine looking at the texture and the filled crack.

Equally it could be the antler of one of the many types found, all ground and polish in to its current form.

Gavin