Wierd pliers ?

[Royston]

Anyone got an idea what these are.
Supposed to have come from India.
length 14 inches.

Suggestions so far have been:- Arrow making or culinary.

Made of iron or steel.

Any comments will be most welcome.

Regards
Roy

[Emanuel]

Hmm..I was thinking maybe blacksmith tongs made from recycled ornament or element from a fence or gate but the assembly is more complex than that. One piece slots into the other...nice!

[russel]

My first thought was also blacksmith tongs.

[A. G. Maisey]

How about removal of body parts?

A device used for interrogation.

[Shakethetrees]

I think these are fancy blacksmith tongs. The box joint is a pretty sophisticated bit of smithery!

Each side of the jaws is done up as a stylized dragon head, a popular motif that I've seen around, the spear point and knob are just bits of showing off. I do not think they had any other purpose than to be pretty, functional tongs.

The hollow jaws are for gripping linear bits of hot iron while drawing out.

[Andrew]

Agreed: blacksmith tongs of some sort. My inclination is that these are farrier tongs.

Perhaps an apprentice project, as I cannot imagine a working smith spending so much time on such a tool, given a typical smithy would have dozens (if not hundreds) of tongs and similar tools.

[Royston]

Alan, funny that you should mention body parts because someone else suggested they could be for removing bullets or musket balls.

I agree that they look like a metalworkers tongs but very delicate compared with most smith's tongs.

I did show them to a farrier / smith who did not recognise them, but I suppose if they are from India they could have a specific purpose there.

Thanks gents.
Regards
Roy

[A Senefelder]

These look to be pick up tongs for square bar stock used for forging. I have several pairs in different sizes, some made in the last 10-15 years and a few antique sets all of which have been put to use. They can also be found shaped to handle different sizes of round bar stock. While a bit more ornate than the antique ones I use, they do appear to be for the very same function.

[Andrew]

I originally thought these might be instruments for removing bullets or arrow heads from wounds, but those rear-facing double prongs on each side of the "business end" of the tongs make that only likely if one's intent was to further traumatize the wound.

Bar-stock tongs sounds about right. Perhaps for making nails. I still think the design and workmanship seems too high-quality for a typical tool, though.

[fernando]

If i may switch the complicometer :o ...

These don't seem much practical for frequent pick and pull moves; it would need some patience and accuracy to grab the object in a position to match it with the longitudinal section of the tongs.
More like something to be held (and not dropped) while being treated. If indeed this were smith forging tongs, then the object to forge would have to be rather long, to prevent the pliers from coming too close to the fire.
Its non simple design, lance shaped handle, horn prongs and all, besides making it appear less western, may also indicate this is a device to use under ritual circumstances.

[A Senefelder]

Fernando,

These don't seem much practical for frequent pick and pull moves; it would need some patience and accuracy to grab the object in a position to match it with the longitudinal section of the tongs.

Which is exactly why smithing takes practice ( and a willingness to suffer a burn or two ). This is however exactly how tongs are used. One utilizes them to 1) place an item into the fire as doing so by hand is an impossibility due to the intense heat, 2) to shift and item around in a fire to heat evenly or check that the item is heated to what is desired, 3) to remove the heated item from the fire, and 4) to hold the item while it is hot and being worked with a hammer or in other words the entire time the item it hot. A square piece of bar stock will not seat anywhere near as firmly in a set of tongs with flat jaws so square jaws are used, but a much smaller piece of square stock will not seat firmly if at all in a larger set of square pickup tongs so various sizes are needed. The same applies to round stock pick up tongs ect. Throw into this the ingenuity of smiths on the job who tended to make up their own tools if they did not have the right one for a job and there is a wide variety of tongs, many non standard one offs around. I have several antique 19th century tongs around that we still haven't figured out what they may have been used for. To give you some idea of the variety ( and this is a small sampling ) this is a link to one company's offerings of tongs http://www.centaurforge.com/Tongs/departments/102/ If you do a search on Epray under Collectibles, Tools,Locks, Hardware and type in " blacksmith tongs " hundreds of examples come up. I mention this only by way of illustrating the wide variety of tongs that were made over the years.

None of this means in any way that the item in the OP are square stock pick up tongs, that is simply what they look like given the 4-5 sets of them that I have both new and antique and the similarity to them in the manner in which the jaws of this item are designed and built.

Its non simple design, lance shaped handle, horn prongs and all, besides making it appear less western, may also indicate this is a device to use under ritual circumstances.

I am inclined to agree, for all the antique tools, hammers, stakes, anvils, tongs ect. I use and the hundereds more I've seen over the years of tool searching, they are all about function rather than decoration, many being very plain and baring the marks of smith made tools. This is finished and decorated to a much higher level than the metalworking tools I've encountered ( primarily America 19th century ).

[Emanuel]

What I find really nifty about these tongs is the box joint/pivot.
A lot of work must have gone into it, whereas a simple overlapping joint is much easier to make.

[spiral]

Ones modern use of forging tools, does provide good evidence of how 7 what they may do.

The fact such tools normally used in the west have no decoration may mean nothing in this context though..

In historic Hindu culture at least, many tools & most weapons carry religious or spiritual symbolism...

So Id guess the may be Indian... {Of course other cultures/religions in Africa or South AmericaI am unaware of may have done similar.}

But I think for origin we can rule out countrys where predominantly those 3 localised middle eastern origin Abrahamic religions, the Christian, Muslim or Jewish faiths preside.

But my moneys on Hindu Indian origin.

spiral

[drac2k]

As previously mentioned, I think the tongs are a multi-purpose torture device, as shown on the television show "Deals from the Darkside ;" the only difference was that the clamp part they had, also possessed serrated teeth.The same dragon like image was represented on their pair as well.Also what purpose would a spear head at the end of the tongs, facing oneself serve, save being heated to gouge out an eye or two.

[spiral]

As previously mentioned, I think the tongs are a multi-purpose torture device, as shown on the television show "Deals from the Darkside ;" the only difference was that the clamp part they had, also possessed serrated teeth.The same dragon like image was represented on their pair as well.Also what purpose would a spear head at the end of the tongs, facing oneself serve, save being heated to gouge out an eye or two.

How about Symbolism, based on pre.modern belief systems? :shrug:

The tv show you site is ridiculous fantasy show made for light entertainment! :rolleyes:

You can not possibly seriously take that as a factual source surely? :shrug:

But thank you for sharing your thoughts! Certainly something to make one stop & think for a few seconds...

spiral

[A. G. Maisey]

Please accept my apologies people.

I was only kidding about "removal of body parts" I didn't think for a moment anybody would take me seriously. I do tend to get a bit facetious at times --- especially after watching all three seasons of the"The Borgias" at a single sitting.

As Mr. Senefelder has mentioned, I believe these are smith's tongs, what sort of smith, I don't know, but I have tongs exactly the same that I made for use in the forge.

I was taught fire & iron by one of Australia's last traditional blacksmiths, a gentleman named Gordon Blackwell, he taught me basics, and I needed to teach myself the more specialised things involved in making pamor and doing blade-smith work.

However, one of the things Gordon taught me was how to make tongs, and I made a number of tongs, all for different purposes, some have jaws exactly the same as the ones shown by Royston, but construction is much more simple and there is no ornamentation.

So, serious guess this time:- smith's tongs.

Incidentally, I've burnt myself a lot of times when working, and something that has always amazed me is that these burns never, ever hurt at the time. They might smart a bit the following day, especially when bathing, but at the time, never. I do not have especially high tolerance of pain.

[Shakethetrees]

[/QUOTE]
Incidentally, I've burnt myself a lot of times when working, and something that has always amazed me is that these burns never, ever hurt at the time. They might smart a bit the following day, especially when bathing, but at the time, never. I do not have especially high tolerance of pain.[/QUOTE]


You're right!

The degree of concentration and rush to get iron to anvil causes everything else to temporarily go away!

When I was in school many years ago, I was in a frenzied state, rushing to make a deadline. Right next to me in the next soldering station a friend, Tom, was annealling a small, roughly one inch, by half inch ingot of gold. Each of us lost in our own worlds and without words expressing our intentions, I pivoted left, dropping a red hot bit of work into a quenching bath while Tom turned to the right, gold in tongs, intending for it to join my work in the tank. Instead, the ingot caught my upper forearm squarely, impressing a one inch by a half inch burn!

Toms immediate reaction- "That's OK, it's gold."

Without either of us missing a beat, we went right back to work.

The next day it was not as funny! I still carry a slight mark reminding me of the incident.

[drac2k]

Well, then, I stand alone, and I wasn't kidding ; I believe them to be constructed for torture . It is amazing to me how, in this forum, where we have encompassed every strange form of weapon,multiple oddities, or numerous bizarre treasures from the past some completely close themseves to this possibility.

[colin henshaw]

My guess is its for removing arrows or bullets from the body, which would explain the concave inner section to the jaws, also the pointed tips to the jaws. The small spear-like blade to the handle end would be for widening the wound, if required to locate the foreign object. An explanation for the two pairs of "horns" could be to see at a glance how far the tongs/pincers had penetrated, or to facilitate tying the tongs tight over the arrowhead or bullet, before pulling out, maybe using both hands. A cord attached to the small "horns" could also help to pull out, say a barbed arrowhead.

[drac2k]

Mutilation Tools


In the Middle Ages mutilation was popular. As well as branding, Church and Civil authorities carried out a range of mutilations, lopping off hands, feet, ears, tongs, lips, noses, breasts and genitals.

In England ear lopping was particularly popular. Pamphleteers attacking the religious views of the Anglican episcopacy under William Laud, the Archbishop of Canterbury, had their ears cut off, including Dr. Alexander Leighton (1630) and John Bastwick, Henry Burton and William Prynne (1637).

In Scotland a Covenanter, James Gavin of Douglas of Lanarkshire had his ears cut off for refusing to renounce his religious faith.


The above is a reference that I found, with the tongs being used in a ghastly manner.

[Shakethetrees]

I don't have a copy but there was a collection of torture instruments and ephemera put together in the mid nineteenth century by the Marquess of Shaftesbury or Queensbury (one of them, I don't remember the exact name.). The collection went on tour in the 1890's and a catalog was published.

It is my understanding that this collection was disbursed after a disastrous fire destroyed a good portion of it some years back.

This catalog was available about twenty years ago from a dealer (I forget who it was) and I would think it might be able to be found today.

[spiral]

Well, then, I stand alone, and I wasn't kidding ; I believe them to be constructed for torture . It is amazing to me how, in this forum, where we have encompassed every strange form of weapon,multiple oddities, or numerous bizarre treasures from the past some completely close themseves to this possibility.


I didn't discount ,that they were a torture device.... All though I suspect there for metal working. Holding square bar...

I discounted your source, that led you to you conclusion, {A rubbishy low budget tv program.}

I also disagree with your assumption that the longer finial was only suitable for eye gouging... I see finial like that on many items.... Ive never imagined they were only suitable for eye gouging..:shrug: Each to there own though.


But I agree you could torture someone with them, crocodile pincers & shears are well known & when 35 years ago I unexpectedly saw the collection of gestapo torture equipment from there Paris cellars there were certainly blacksmith type tools amongst them.

But flat grippy pincers or toothed would be better for torture I think?

If one has that perverted & sick mind set you can happily torture some one with nearly anything... a bowl of water... a screwdriver, matches, pliers or anything really..

spiral

[drac2k]

Obviously that wasn't my only source.........I used "Pawn Stars," as well. Now seriously, I am open to all sources of information(even lowly ones) , however I cross check them for the probability for validity. I am curious, do you know the show to be a "rubbishy low budget tv program ," because you watch it , or you don't watch it because intuitively you know it to be trash ?
I am no expert in torture(if you discount my posts), however, if I were going to heat the tongs to a red hot glow, I would rather have a hollowed out set that would encompass the whole digit(finger,etc.), than a flat surface that would only effect the top and the bottom. I did not definitively mean to assert that this tool was used for torture (either end);it was just my opinion, and up to now, based on what I've read , no more or less valid than anyone else.

[spiral]

. I am curious, do you know the show to be a "rubbishy low budget tv program ," because you watch it , or you don't watch it because intuitively you know it to be trash ?
.


After reading your citing of "Deals from the Darkside" as your original source, I thought I better check it out.

Although given the title I did think it might be trash. So I had a look on youtube...

But if you enjoy it, fair enough! ;)

spiral

[fernando]

Point made, Jonathan.

[drac2k]

What,do you think that a 50 year old, rather stout man, with a Mohawk, who is an escape artist(who barely manages to escape his death defying, non-life threatening exhibitions), who also happens to be a Goth, who goes around spending huge sums of money at flee markets and "private auctions," for torture devices isn't a good reference point.......................of course he isn't, but it served as an impetus for further research. It was a highly visible,easily accessible source for all to see and I noticed that after you watched the Youtube videos(one might argue another source of trashy entertainment), you started to refer to the tongs as "crocodile shears," just as our protagonist did.See,we can learn from lowly sources.
I conclusion, I wish to apologize to the individual who started the thread, for my participation, in detracting from the original question .

[spiral]

What,do you think that a 50 year old, rather stout man, with a Mohawk, who is an escape artist(who barely manages to escape his death defying, non-life threatening exhibitions), who also happens to be a Goth, who goes around spending huge sums of money at flee markets and "private auctions," for torture devices isn't a good reference point.......................of course he isn't, but it served as an impetus for further research. It was a highly visible,easily accessible source for all to see and I noticed that after you watched the Youtube videos(one might argue another source of trashy entertainment), you started to refer to the tongs as "crocodile shears," just as our protagonist did.See,we can learn from lowly sources.
I conclusion, I wish to apologize to the individual who started the thread, for my participation, in detracting from the original question .

Your wrong....

I didn't see the one about the shears.... Is it on youtube? {only place to find your cited TV programmes.}

The term crocodile shears came from typing medieval torture equipment into google.

spiral

[drac2k]

Sorry, but you err again.Steve Santini , the star of "Deals from the Darkside," a man to whom you have given more exposure to than the entire run of his 13 episodes combined, labeled them "crocodile tongs." I realize that you called them "crocodile shears," however you weren't calling them "crocodile anything," before you allegedly watched his video.You can find the reference to the episode on the "Huff Post TV;" posted 12/13/2012, 7:59 AM EST.
I promised that I wouldn't further detract from this thread unless I could contribute something tangible and so here goes.........their "experts," valued the "crocodile tongs," a much better description than shears, at $6000.00 USD; now before you get too excited, theirs had teeth, so maybe your toothless pair might be worth half as much ???

[Rick]

That's enough sparring gentlemen .

[spiral]

[QUOTE=drac2k], however you weren't calling them "crocodile anything," before you allegedly watched his video.[QUOTE]

Ok Rick, Ill ignore his accusing me of lying, as so you wish..

I must point out the tongs are not mine though...:shrug:

spiral

ps .As I said, got the term crocodile shears from...typing medieval torture equipment into google

This was first the hit....

linkt (http://www.viralnova.com/medieval-torture-devices/)

I think one can see why I used the term crocodile .....

[Royston]

Thanks for all the comments Gentlemen, most "interesting"

Regards
Roy

[fernando]

... now before you get too excited, theirs had teeth, so maybe your toothless pair might be worth half as much ???.
... Ill ignore his accusing me of lying, as so you wish...This was first the hit ...
No gladiators arena here; you know better than that. Just pass on to the next topic; this one has had it from you.

.

[VANDOO]

THESE TONGS MOST LIKELY SERVED A CEREMONIAL PURPOSE OR WERE SYMBOLIC SUCH AS SOME TOOLS USED AS SYMBOLS IN SOME GROUPS THE MASONS COME TO MIND. IF THE ORIGIN IS INDIA THIS IS EVEN MORE LIKELY.
SOME METAL WORKERS MAKE INTRICATE IRON OBJECTS EITHER PURELY DECORATIVE OR EVEN TOOLS TO SHOW OFF THEIR SKILLS. THIS SET OF TONGS HAS JUST TOO MANY DIFFERENT TOOLS TO BE USED IN FORGING, THEY DID NOT MAKE A SWISS ARMY KNIFE TOOL FOR BLACKSMITHS THAT I AM AWARE OF :D THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT TONGS FOR DIFFERENT APPLICATIONS NOT ONE SET THAT INCORPORATES EVERY FUNCTION INTO ONE SET.
THE SAME LIKELY APPLIES TO TONGS USED IN TORTURE WHICH WERE MOSTLY MUCH LIKE REGULAR ONES IN MOST CASES. SOME WERE MADE TO LOOK MORE TERRIFYING PERHAPS OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILLS OF THE MAKER OR FANCIER AT THE REQUEST OF THE ONE ORDERING THEM ESPECIALLY IF THEY WERE ROYALTY. A RED HOT POKER FOR INSTANCE COULD BE ANY PIECE OF IRON.
AS TO TODAY'S T.V. SHOWS THE TERM REALITY SHOW IS THE LIE THEY ARE SCRIPTED AND REHEARSED NOT DONE LIVE. THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE SENSATIONAL AND TO ENTERTAIN BUT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN TOO SERIOUSLY BUT CAN SERVE TO PIQUE ONES INTEREST TO DO SOME SERIOUS RESEARCH. WHATEVER THE TONGS IN QUESTION ARE I LIKE THEM. :cool:

[spiral]

Thanks for all the comments Gentlemen, most "interesting"

Regards
Roy

Cheers Roy, as I recall from our meeting your a true Gent yourself. ;)

Congratulation's on your reinstatement as Lead Euro moderator Fernando!

I hadn't noticed till now....

Spiral

[fernando]

Points agreed with, VANDOO but ... it still has to be considered that, beyond all exhibiting features, it also looks as if this device had some practical use, be it cerimonial or ritual, as some of its lines look functionally intentional, while not contributing for its fantasy attitude. Meaning that the tongs "lips" don't completely close, leaving a regular gap, caused by the contour of their front ends. Also the "tubular" interior section doesn't add much to a show off feature, but as a need to fit into it something with a coinciding cross section. ... If Roy doesn't mind me to work up his pictures. .................................................. .....................