My gunong collection and some thoughts

[Sajen]

Ian has recently asked in a other thread why and what we collect. I have given the answer in his thread already but here some deeper aspects. By threads in this forum, special by threads from Steve Ferguson I get interest for this beautiful daggers. I asked myself some time ago if I should collect only the old/antique ones but decided to collect all which was made for real use. Some interesting pieces I have to let go, by some I was outbid, others has been to expensiv, one very intersting piece get confiscated by german customs. I will show my collection piece by piece, my thoughts about them and what I think about the age. Some of them was discussed before, I will post the links. It is interesting to see how this daggers has looked in different times. In my opinion are the newer pieces also very worthy for a collection as long as they worked for real use, here two threads where I have shown two very interesting gunongs, not antique but worked for use: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17535&highlight=gunong & http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15559&highlight=gunong Both are worth to enter a gunong collection.
This interesting gunong get confiscated by german customs because the seller write on the custom declaration "bear tooth handle": http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17333&highlight=gunong , a very interesting piece IMHO.
Here an very informative link: http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/moroweapons.html

[Sajen]

Here my centerpiece of my gunong collection, it was dicussed before in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17872&highlight=gunong

Scabbard and handle attachments are from silver with two small bands from suassa, pommel from ivory. Blade seems to be laminated but it need more polishing to be sure. Age: 1900-1910. 29,5 cm inside scabbard, blade approx. 19 cm.

[Sajen]

A little and simple gunong but with outstanding patina to the wooden parts, all fittings are from brass. Age I would guess around 1920. Blade still need more polishing and a etch to tell if it's laminated. 20,5 cm inside scabbard, blade 12,5 cm.

[Sajen]

Here a little gunong with MOP handle, it was disscussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16155&highlight=gunong
Scabbard from bamboo with brass fittings is maybe a later replacement. The gunong could be from Sulu, age 1930-1940?, ferrule from silver. Laminated blade. 23,5 cm inside scabbard, blade 14 cm.

[Sajen]

A beautiful gunong which was discussed here before: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15295&highlight=gunong
Fittings are from silver (not plated as thought before) and suassa. Wavy blade, not etched until now. 25 cm sheathed, blade 16 cm. Age 1920-1930.

[Sajen]

One of my very first gunongs, fittings are from white metal (german silver?), good worked blade with engravings, guard from horn. Age I would guess 1930-1940, blade from mono steel. 27 cm overall, blade 15 cm.

[Sajen]

An interesting gunong from 1940 or later, scabbard bands from brass (restored), ferrule aluminium bands over brass, wooden pommel with iron plates reinforced. Very good worked blade is laminated. In my eyes a good later fighter. 28 cm sheathed, blade 18 cm. First I want to resell it, now it is on my display.

[Sajen]

A gunong from 1940 or later, complete with aluminium fittings, laminated blade with engravings. One of my first gunongs, very nice banati pommel. Very nice gunong of this time frame IMHO. 30 cm inside scabbard with a blade from 19,5 cm.

[Sajen]

A interesting gunong from the same time frame wich has seen a lot of use. It seems that this gunong has had once a owner from the Visayas, the leather throat at the scabbard let me think like this. Guard from alternating horn and aluminium plates and the "false" ferrule from alternating horn, aluminium and ivory (?) or bone plates, beautiful grained wood pommel. Very broad engraved blade is laminated. 27,5 cm sheathed, blade a little bit over 16 cm.

[Sajen]

An other early gunong is still by Jose, will post similar pictures when I have it in my hands. Pieces I will purchase in future will be shown here as well. I think that this thread can give an overview of the development of this intersting daggers but I am aware that not all forms and ages are shown. :)

[Battara]

Shall we call you Tito Gunong Jr.? (Steve Ferguson would be Tito Gunong Sr.)

[DaveA]

So many beautiful and functional gunong! I am very pleased to see this fine pictures and hope they will become a reference for others. The mother-of-pearl hilt is especially wonderful.

Best,

Dave A.

[Ferguson]

Very nice pieces. They are addictive, aren't they? :D Thank you for sharing them with us.
Steve

[Sajen]

Shall we call you Tito Gunong Jr.? (Steve Ferguson would be Tito Gunong Sr.)

Hello Jose,

this would be to much honor! :D Steve's collection is outstanding and was my main inspiriration but the time is gone that you can buy so many by low prices.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

So many beautiful and functional gunong! I am very pleased to see this fine pictures and hope they will become a reference for others. The mother-of-pearl hilt is especially wonderful.

Best,

Dave A.

Thank you as well Dave. Hope that it will be a little help for others to place their own pieces!

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Very nice pieces. They are addictive, aren't they? :D Thank you for sharing them with us.
Steve

Hello Steve (Tito Gunong),

very addictive, I am afraid that I am hooked on them already. :D

Regards,
Detlef

[russel]

A beautiful collection Detlef. When you receive the restored Gunong from Robert, it would be great to see a group photograph.

Russel

[Sajen]

A beautiful collection Detlef. When you receive the restored Gunong from Robert, it would be great to see a group photograph.

Russel

Thank you Russel,

Jose has restored the other gunong, just for clarification. :) Will post a group picture when I have received it!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

This gunong will enter the small family of my collection soon. I think it is from around 1910-1920 with half waved blade and silver fittings. 10" or 25,4 cm inside scabbard with a blade from 6,25" or 16 cm.
Your comments are welcome! :)

[Robert]

Very nice catch Detlef, a great addition to your growing collection of gunongs. I am saving my money for a very special item that I have been wanting to add to my collection for years so I haven't been doing any buying from ebay of late. Going by the dress on the hilt and scabbard I would agree with your dating on this piece though I have always wondered about when this blade design actually first started showing up. My congratulations to you on this new addition and the best of luck to you on finding your next.

Best,
Robert

[David]

That's a really sweet one Detlef! Congratulations!

[russel]

Congratulations Detlef, truly stunning.

[Sajen]

Thank you Robert, David and Russel!

Robert, can't answer when this blade shape first started showing up, I only know that it is quite rare. I just have had a look to Steve's last family portrait and see only one with a similar blade shape. Maybe Jose will know more and can give his educated opinion.

Thank you all three again for your kind words! :)

Regards,
Detlef

[Royston]

Nice thread.

Here are my 4.

From left to right the hilts are:- M.O.P, wood, wood, bone.
The left hand one shows signs of blade lamination.

Regards
Roy

[Sajen]

Hello Roy,

I really like the second from the left, a very early example, turn of the 19th century. The one with MOP is also a nice one. The both on the right are post WWII, but the one with wooden handle has a very nice okir work.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Another one which will enter the family soon.

[kronckew]

i love gunongs,
my favourite lives on the nigghtstand next to the bed.

justincase ;)

[Robert]

Very nice addition Detlef. You are starting to acquire quite the collection of these. You need to start showing a family group photo every once in awhile too.:D

Kronckew, I've a "justincase" too. Though not as pretty as yours it does hold 15 rounds.:eek:

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Very nice addition Detlef. You are starting to acquire quite the collection of these. You need to start showing a family group photo every once in awhile too.:D

Hello Robert,
thank you. Maybe I will have some work with it, look like the blade is plated. :shrug:
Will take a family portrait when I have received it.

Regards,
Detlef

[russel]

Another nice one Detlef, congratulations.

[Sajen]

Another nice one Detlef, congratulations.

Thank you Russel! :)

[Sajen]

i love gunongs,
my favourite lives on the nigghtstand next to the bed.

justincase ;)

:D :D For "this" case I have a long blade! Are the mounts from silver or aluminium?

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

i love gunongs,
my favourite lives on the nigghtstand next to the bed.

justincase ;)

If Justincase came through the door I think I'd rather just shoot the bastard . :eek:

[Robert]

If Justincase came through the door I think I'd rather just shoot the bastard .

My exact sentiments as well Rick. :D

[kronckew]

Very nice addition Detlef. You are starting to acquire quite the collection of these. You need to start showing a family group photo every once in awhile too.:D

Kronckew, I've a "justincase" too. Though not as pretty as yours it does hold 15 rounds.:eek:

Best,
Robert
i used to have a 1911 colt .45 acp mk. IV series 70 in a shoulder holster hanging on the bedpost when i was last living in the states. and a 12 ga. pump riot gun with an extended mag under the bed. my then wife had my s&w 6in.model 66 in the nightstand drawer on her side. (she got custody of it when we split).

i didn't need 15 rounds ;)

and my group photo: :)

[Rick]

With that grouping you'd only need one .

[Sajen]

Have etched the blade of the in post #19 shown gunong, it shows a nice lamination.

[Sajen]

Another one which will enter the family soon.

Have received the gunong, it's a very big one, 36 cm inside scabbard with a blade lenght from 23,5 cm. Fittings are from silver but poorly done. The blade wasn't plated and after a quick polish and etch it show a beautiful lamination. Will show pictures later at the day and also a group picture.

[Robert]

Will show pictures later at the day and also a group picture.

Great, looking forward to seeing your little family all together.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Here the "new" one.

[Sajen]

some close up's!

[Sajen]

And here the family portrait, like you see is Paula very interested by gunongs! :D

[Robert]

Great little family of gunongs you have put together Detlef, but it seems to me that one is missing though. Didn't you have one with an ivory hilt that Jose did some restoration work on? Even being rather on the large size I still like the proportions and finish of your latest find. Quite a few of the larger ones that I have seen seem to be exaggerated in their features (bulky with harsh angles) while this one stays true to form. If we ever get a day with decent lighting I will post a photo or two of my very limited collection of gunongs to add to this thread. Thank you for sharing these with us.

Best,
Robert

[Spunjer]

there's something about gunongs: they are so simple, yet so elegant. nice set you got there, Detlef! on the latest member of your family, i really love the lamination pattern on that one! very, very controlled! if you don't mind me asking, what did you use as an etchant for it? one of this days, i will try to etch my gunongs just to see if they're laminated or not. i guess i just take them for granted which i shouldn't...

[Sajen]

Great little family of gunongs you have put together Detlef, but it seems to me that one is missing though. Didn't you have one with an ivory hilt that Jose did some restoration work on? Even being rather on the large size I still like the proportions and finish of your latest find. Quite a few of the larger ones that I have seen seem to be exaggerated in their features (bulky with harsh angles) while this one stays true to form. If we ever get a day with decent lighting I will post a photo or two of my very limited collection of gunongs to add to this thread. Thank you for sharing these with us.

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert,

thank you and yes, one is still by Jose. And you are correct, the "new" one is surely worked for use and I would place it around 1930. It's a real fighter.
Curious to see your collection of gunongs.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

there's something about gunongs: they are so simple, yet so elegant. nice set you got there, Detlef! on the latest member of your family, i really love the lamination pattern on that one! very, very controlled! if you don't mind me asking, what did you use as an etchant for it? one of this days, i will try to etch my gunongs just to see if they're laminated or not. i guess i just take them for granted which i shouldn't...

Thank you Ron,

and I agree with you, it's a very controlled lamination, never thought to find it by this gunong. I've used a mixture from vinegar concentrate and citric acid mixed with water (20/80 %). Don't worry, I think that minimum 50% of all gunong blades are laminated.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Here the pictures of the restored gunong from this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18854&highlight=gunong

Jose have done a remarkable job. :) The blade isn't laminated.

[kronckew]

minor point: the grip is on upside down. other than that, good job.

[Sajen]

minor point: the grip is on upside down. other than that, good job.

My first thought as well, good observation. :) But the blade fit only in this position inside the scabbard. And have a look to the sheathed knife, this is the way they look when inside scabbard. ;) Maybe Jose can add his thoughts about this. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Not sure why the blade was made "upside down" but this is what is it. The other unusual aspect is the way the scabbard was made. The okir style and the manner of execution do not seem to me to be as "professional" as other examples. I wonder if the artisan was Lumad or part Lumad, even though the motifs are Moro (perhaps Maguindanao). :shrug:

[Sajen]

Not sure why the blade was made "upside down" but this is what is it. The other unusual aspect is the way the scabbard was made. The okir style and the manner of execution do not seem to me to be as "professional" as other examples. I wonder if the artisan was Lumad or part Lumad, even though the motifs are Moro (perhaps Maguindanao). :shrug:

Thank you Jose. Will take some close ups from the scabbard tomorrow by daylight that the others can see what you mean.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Sorry, i don't understand what you mean by "upside down" Wayne. Do you mean that the handle bend is facing in the wrong direction. If so, while most seem to bend in a similar way i have seen a few that go the other way. I don't know if this is because of a left-handed use or what. :shrug:

[kronckew]

in the wavy gunong and kris the point faces slighly down away from the center line as does the pommel. in the examples shown on the forum here this is true. on yours it is assembled so when the pommel points down, the point er, points up.

a little photoshopping to illustrate, plus my kris:

[Battara]

As I said, either this one is an aberration, or the artisan may not have been Moro. :shrug:

[kronckew]

a possibility. as long as you are satisfied with it. a minor aberration. makes it more unusual.

[Battara]

When I tried reversing the blade, it didn't fit into the scabbard well nor would it fit the handle well. What you see not only is the best fit but seems to be the original fit and orientation.

[Sajen]

The other unusual aspect is the way the scabbard was made. The okir style and the manner of execution do not seem to me to be as "professional" as other examples. I wonder if the artisan was Lumad or part Lumad, even though the motifs are Moro (perhaps Maguindanao). :shrug:

Here a close up from the okir work at the scabbard.

[Sajen]

When I tried reversing the blade, it didn't fit into the scabbard well nor would it fit the handle well. What you see not only is the best fit but seems to be the original fit and orientation.

Here some pictures which show from up to down a.: the fit now inside the scabbard, b.: like it is normally (no perfect fit), and c.: a close up from this

[Sajen]

After I was outbid 2012 by this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15559&highlight=gunong I was now able to acquire a nearly similar gunong, maybe from the same workshop, not antique, maybe WWII area, but very good worked IMHO.
Here are the pictures from the seller. Will post some more pictures when I have received it and have given it some maintenance.

[Sajen]

Here both side by side for comparison.

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, I really like these knives and though not antique they are very interesting. Because of the good workmanship, nice form and the fact that it's so unique I had even put a modest bid on this when I first saw it, but I was quickly outbid. At least now you won't be as disapointed about not winning the first one seeing that you have been able to acquire this one for your collection. I agree with Rick when he said: "wouldn't this make a great visual deterrent to a potential attacker when seen from twenty feet away, or across a room ." I think that this would be especially true if the room wasn't well lit. I am looking forward to it arriving to see just how well made it actually is. Again, my congratulations to you for winning this most interesting piece.

Best,
Robert

[kronckew]

Here some pictures which show from up to down a.: the fit now inside the scabbard, b.: like it is normally (no perfect fit), and c.: a close up from this

i wasn't referring to how it fit in the scabbard, that usually is only one correct way. properly inserted in the scabbard for correct fit of the blade, the hilt, not the blade, would normally point the other way. it could be removed from the blade rotated 180 degrees and re-attached. all with the guard and blade in the scabbard correctly at best fit.

[Sajen]

At least now you won't be as disapointed about not winning the first one seeing that you have been able to acquire this one for your collection.

Hello Robert,

thank you for your kind words! :) When I look to the both side by side I tend to say that I like my one more, the mother of pearl inlays at the handle scales are very nice IMHO and the engravings on the blade are also very nice.
Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

i wasn't referring to how it fit in the scabbard, that usually is only one correct way. properly inserted in the scabbard for correct fit of the blade, the hilt, not the blade, would normally point the other way. it could be removed from the blade rotated 180 degrees and re-attached. all with the guard and blade in the scabbard correctly at best fit.

Hi Kronckew,

I understand what you meant but read again #56 what Jose has written. And when you would turn the handle by 180 degree the look inside scabbard will be unusual as well, see attached picture. And when I understand Jose correct it wasn't possible.

Best regards,
Detlef

[David]

It should be noted that the bend of the pommel does NOT always flow in the same direction on all gunongs. The ivory gunong on the left is a straight single edged variety. The one on the right is a wavy blade. Neither of these blades fit the sheath in the reverse direction so this is how they were made. I suppose it is possible that these differ do to righthand/lefthand preferences.
Regarding Wayne's comments on point direction, the wavy one does indeed have the direction of the point bending to the same side as the bend of the hilt, though i am always hesitant to claim "wrong" or "correct" when it comes to these daggers as i do not believe we really know enough about them to make such definitive statements. Just as the pommels don't always bend to the same side i am open to the concept that the point of the wavy dagger might also vary from time to time. :shrug:

[Robert]

One thing to remember is that the tangs on these are usually curved to follow the curve of the tang socket in the hilt. The tang on this dagger is curved in the opposite direction of the point of the blade unlike all of the ones that I have personally seen where the curve of the tang is curved in the same direction as that of the point of the blade. The tang will only fit properly into the socket in one direction unless you modify either the tang socket or the tang itself. I would suggest that this might have been ordered this way by the original owner. If being used in close quarters (with an upward stabbing motion say to the stomach area) having the blades point facing upwards might help in making it easier for the blade penetrate both cloth and flesh alike. JTOL

Best,
Robert

[kronckew]

ithink i am having trouble explaining my comments. they had nothing to do with the scabard, the scabbard fit is a red herring. it only was about the point of the blade pointing down when held with the bend held in the grip/pommel in your palm in normal fashion.

whichever way the grip is attached to the blade, it will only fit the scabbard one way. the grip when detached from the blade, as in a keris, can be reattached pointing willy-nilly in any direction, restrained by it's geometry of course.

a square gunong tang with a square hole in the grip would only allow 4 directions, two of which would point the pommel away from the flat left or right side if the blade, and would be highly unusual orientations. the other two orientations place the pommel the same direction as the edges, the more usual of which is to present the last luk at the point towards the ground. the tip is thus below the centerline perpendicular to the guard.

i cannot find an image of one (or of a kris or keris) where it does not other than the one presented initially here which i believed to be an artefact of it's reassembly when it was restored by jose.

if it was indeed made this way and can only fit the pommel one way, it would be a rare one indeed. however, the photo of it's pre-restoration shows a straight tang and the other photos show a round hole in the grip.

[Robert]

f it was indeed made this way and can only fit the pommel one way, it would be a rare one indeed. however, the photo of it's pre-restoration shows a straight tang and the other photos show a round hole in the grip.

Kronckew, I most likely have not seen as many of these disassembled as you have, but on everyone I have handled personally the blades tang would only fit into the hilt one way (where everything, blade, guard and hilt lined up properly) unless being forced. Here is a link to a gunong that I restored: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16277&page=1&pp=30&highlight=gunong You will see that just like the blade on the one Jose restored that there is a slight curve in the tang (opposite direction from Detlefs) and that the tang socket in the hilt itself looks to be mostly round (again like the one we are discussing) but the tang would only fit into the socket one way where everything would line up properly. As I personally did not do the restoration on Detlefs gunong I can only express my confidence in Jose and say that if the blade would have fit into the hilt on what is accepted as the normal direction (blade tip facing downwards) that he would have placed it that way.

Best,
Robert

[kronckew]

'nuff said. as i mentioned earlier, as long as the owner is happy, that's the main thing anyway. my OCD is not important.

[Sajen]

As I personally did not do the restoration on Detlefs gunong I can only express my confidence in Jose and say that if the blade would have fit into the hilt on what is accepted as the normal direction (blade tip facing downwards) that he would have placed it that way.

Agree here with Robert and think that Jose have enough knowledge that when it has been possible that he would has attached the pommel in the "correct" direction. Like said before, I have had the same thoughts like Wayne when I have received the gunong from Jose. But he assured that it was only possible like he has done it.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

as long as the owner is happy, that's the main thing anyway.

Wayne, he is! ;) I am sure that Jose has given the best. :) :cool:

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Actually I tried the other way regarding the handle and tang. Didn't work: the best fit is the present one. Thus a truly unique piece indeed! (And I'm glad you're happy! :D )

[Sajen]

Actually I tried the other way regarding the handle and tang. Didn't work: the best fit is the present one. Thus a truly unique piece indeed! (And I'm glad you're happy! :D )


:) :)

[Sajen]

Finally I have received the pistol gunong. Well made blade with subtle lamination. Scabbard shows a lot of wear so I am sure that it was in use for some time. Here some just taken pictures after the piece has received some maintenance. Like said before, not antique but an interesting ethnograhic dagger with good age.

[Sajen]

Here together with it's new friends at my Moro display.

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, I am very happy to see that this dagger has finally been released and is now in your possession. As I have previously had the opportunity to personally handle this dagger I can attest to how well it is made. Even if it is not of a great age I would be quite happy to have one like it myself. My congratulations to you for being able to add this very interesting and unusual dagger to your collection.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef, I am very happy to see that this dagger has finally been released and is now in your possession. As I have previously had the opportunity to personally handle this dagger I can attest to how well it is made. Even if it is not of a great age I would be quite happy to have one like it myself. My congratulations to you for being able to add this very interesting and unusual dagger to your collection.

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert,
thank you for your kind words and your help that I can acquire this piece. :)

Regards,
Detlef

[VANDOO]

QUITE A NICE DISPLAY AND CONGRADULATIONS ON AQUIRING SUCH AN UNUSUAL KNIFE.
I SAW THIS EXAMPLE OF PISTOL KNIFE SELL A WHILE BACK AS A CIVIL WAR BOWIE WITH A 7 INCH BLADE. IT LOOKS VERY SIMULAR, SO I PUT IT HERE FOR COMPARISON. I WONDER WHEN AND WHERE THESE WERE MADE. PERHAPS SPANISH AMERICAN WAR ERA OR SHORTLY THERE AFTER? :shrug:

[Rick]

QUITE A NICE DISPLAY AND CONGRADULATIONS ON AQUIRING SUCH AN UNUSUAL KNIFE.
I SAW THIS EXAMPLE OF PISTOL KNIFE SELL A WHILE BACK AS A CIVIL WAR BOWIE WITH A 7 INCH BLADE. IT LOOKS VERY SIMULAR, SO I PUT IT HERE FOR COMPARISON. I WONDER WHEN AND WHERE THESE WERE MADE. PERHAPS SPANISH AMERICAN WAR ERA OR SHORTLY THERE AFTER? :shrug:

I think this is Philippine too Barry .
Mindanao ?

[Spunjer]

yup. philippines (mindanao). i notice the subtle ukil close to the handle..

[Sajen]

QUITE A NICE DISPLAY AND CONGRADULATIONS ON AQUIRING SUCH AN UNUSUAL KNIFE.
I SAW THIS EXAMPLE OF PISTOL KNIFE SELL A WHILE BACK AS A CIVIL WAR BOWIE WITH A 7 INCH BLADE. IT LOOKS VERY SIMULAR, SO I PUT IT HERE FOR COMPARISON. I WONDER WHEN AND WHERE THESE WERE MADE. PERHAPS SPANISH AMERICAN WAR ERA OR SHORTLY THERE AFTER? :shrug:

Thank you Barry. :) And also many thanks for posting this interesting example for comparison. It is the third gunong in this style I ever have seen. Regarding the age of all three here shown examples I think that they WWII examples since by all three examples aluminium is used, a sign of this area IMVHO. And maybe all three coming from the same workshop. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[Gehazi]

absolutely love the faux pistol blades, great collection!

[Sajen]

absolutely love the faux pistol blades, great collection!

Thank you Gehazi. :)

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

I'll risk a guess that they're pre-WW2 . :p
1920's-'30's ? :)

[Robert]

I have always wondered about the use of aluminium in the Philippines being used as a measurement of possible age. Quite a few threads here on the forum point to WWII as the starting point, but I know the US Army was using aluminium for the making of their canteens during the Spanish American War. I wonder how many other items that they used were made of this material as well? This could point to items like this having possibly being made much earlier than the WWII date we have been using when discussing these items.

Best,
Robert

[Rick]

Here's another thing to consider; the examples we have seen so far (okay, we haven't seen a lot) are all of revolver form .
I think this points to pre-WW2 otherwise we would see model 1911 45 caliber copies, no ? :shrug: :)

[Robert]

Here's another thing to consider; the examples we have seen so far (okay, we haven't seen a lot) are all of revolver form .
I think this points to pre-WW2 otherwise we would see model 1911 45 caliber copies, no ?

That is a very good question Rick and I totally agree. You would think that more Philippine people would have had a greater chance of seeing a 1911A over the old Colt revolvers that were used earlier. These daggers seem to be a bit on the rare side and I have only seen photos of a dozen or so of them over the years and they were all of the revolver style.

[Sajen]

Very interesting discussion! :) :cool: And Rick has a very good point with the revolver style. And Robert with the use of canteen sheet. And I am sure that the maker of gunongs have had complete other view about the use of aluminum as we have it today. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Have just get another interesting example from ebay. The seller provided only two pictures and not much information. I am very unsure about the age of this example, handle (pommel) and ferrule is an early style but the blade shows sharp luks which is a sign of much later examples. I doubt that the fittings are from silver. Pommel seems to be from bone. All comments are welcome, special age guesses.

[Rick]

I think there's also a chance this handle is of Tridacna, or the Giant Clam shell .
I didn't get to see the item description on ebay; are there any more pictures available Detlef ?

[Sajen]

I think there's also a chance this handle is of Tridacna, or the Giant Clam shell .
I didn't get to see the item description on ebay; are there any more pictures available Detlef ?

Hello Rick,
that would be a nice surprise. It was described as "Chinese Kris Dagger" and the seller posted only this both pictures and no measurements. Hope that it is not one of this small souvenir gunongs.

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

So far I would place this piece in the 1940s. The mounts could be white metal, or tarnished silver.

The pommel shape is not quite the earlier forms. I have seen these made going back to the 1950s. Earlier forms curve and are not bent straight.

[Sajen]

So far I would place this piece in the 1940s. The mounts could be white metal, or tarnished silver.

The pommel shape is not quite the earlier forms. I have seen these made going back to the 1950s. Earlier forms curve and are not bent straight.

Thank you Jose for your educated opinion. :) This would explain the sharp luks and the good condition. But the workmanship look quite good. Do you think that to this time they were worked for locals or for tourists?

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef,
I would not worry too much about this being a small piece made for tourist as most of the ones of this style I've seen are from 10/12 inches in length. As Jose has pointed out the hilt having the sudden bend and not a slow or flowing curve points to its being of later construction and I would agree with his estimate of age placing this most likely in the 1940's. I'm not sure the pointed luks being present on a gunong is an accurate way of dating them any longer as there is now some evidence that pointed luks on kris have been in use long before previously thought. That being said I would not think it would be too much of a stretch of the imagination to think that pointed luks might not also have been used on gunong blades from the same time period. Any way it goes I like this piece and am looking forward to its arrival.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

First, thank you Robert for you thoughts about the gunong, second for the good pictures I've received from you.

Here a few of this pictures. Robert and I am very unsure about the handle material, it's almost looks to my eyes like walrus ivory but I am very, very unsure. Any thoughts?

[Iain]

My entirely uneducated opinion also says walrus, or at least marine ivory. ;)

[Ian]

Sajen:

In the close up of the handle the little black dots visible, especially towards the end of the hilt, look like Haversian canals in cross section. This suggests that the handle is made from bone rather than a form of ivory.

Walrus ivory is extremely rare in the Philippines and would, I think, be restricted to high end, expensive weapons. I have not seen a convincing example of walrus ivory on a moro weapon. However, I have seen what was said to be dugong ivory on the pommel of a datu quality kris.

Ian.

[MaharlikaTimawa]

Very nice blades, the patterns on one of them really give its uniqueness. :cool:

[David]

I'm with Ian. This looks like bone to me. :shrug:

[Sajen]

Thank you all for comment! :)
You could be correct that it is bone. It was just a thought since the ones I have seen with bone pommels has had a top cap to cover the inner porosity.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

It was just a thought since the ones I have seen with bone pommels has had a top cap to cover the inner porosity.
That's a good point Detlef. I hadn't considered that. Still, it does not look like any ivory i have ever seen and the porousness and black dots on the material does look a lot like bone. :shrug:

[Battara]

Take it from a bone head, this is bone. :D

[Sajen]

Take it from a bone head, this is bone. :D

Hi Jose,

think that you are correct. ;)

Best regards,
Detlef

[blue lander]

Does anybody have any information on copper/brass bladed gunongs? I understand they were used for ritual purposes?

[Sajen]

Robert just send me this both pictures from the pommel head, seems indeed to be bone. :)

[Sajen]

Does anybody have any information on copper/brass bladed gunongs? I understand they were used for ritual purposes?

Sorry, can't answer your question. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

Nor can I; being the possessor of a brass wavy bladed dagger made in the style of the non Moro Philippine culture .
Some ideas were put forth .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17695&highlight=brass+blade+dagger

[kronckew]

brass or bronze? was it tested?

[Robert]

I have a few of the Luzon brass and copper bladed daggers, have been able to handle a few more besides and have as of yet seen one where the blade was of bronze. In answer to Blue Landers question on copper or brass bladed gunongs, I must say that I have only seen one example and it was at auction and unfortunately I was outbid on it. As far as the original intended purpose for these items I can only repeat what Rick, Jose, Kino and I have written in the link posted above.

Best,
Robert

[David]

I cannot remember the source, but i do seem to recall in discussions around keris the idea that a non-ferric blade could be used for magickal purposes, or rather, to get around protective magick on someone who supposedly could not be killed by iron. :shrug:

[Rick]

^^
That was the impression I got from reading Toer's Buru Quartet .
Magick .

[blue lander]

Interesting, thank you for the link. Mine has nicks in the edge and the tip is sort of smashed in, as if it stabbed into something hard. So whatever its purpose, it seems to have been put to hard use. I have no idea if the blade is brass, bronze, copper or what. It's orange (with some verdegris) and non magnetic, that's all I know. The bolster is also non magnetic, but it's yellow.

Incidentally I asked a Philippino friend what he thought of it. He suspected the makers didn't have any steel handy so they melted down some copper cables.

[Sajen]

This early gunong will enter my collection soon. :)

[Robert]

Wonderful early gunong Detlef and with silver fittings to boot. My congratulations to you for such a great score and new addition to your collection. Can't wait to see it all cleaned up and the silver polished again.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Wonderful early gunong Detlef and with silver fittings to boot. My congratulations to you for such a great score and new addition to your collection. Can't wait to see it all cleaned up and the silver polished again.

Best,
Robert

Thank you very much Robert. :) Would you agree that it is from around 1900 until 1920?

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef,
I would date this from late 1800's to early 1900's. I could be wrong of course but with its size and style that would be my personal opinion on this piece.

Best,
Robert

[russel]

Congratulations Detlef. I made an offer on this one, but with the terrible state of the Australian dollar my offer had to be modest (too modest for the seller). I'm glad this good early example has entered your collection.

Russel

[Ian]

Thank you very much Robert. :) Would you agree that it is from around 1900 until 1920?

Regards,
DetlefI think that would be about right Detlef.

Ian.

[Sajen]

Robert and Ian, thank you both for confirming my age guess. :)

Russel, the Euro don't have a good state in the moment as well but the price was very good for a gunong like this.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Have just get another interesting example from ebay. The seller provided only two pictures and not much information. I am very unsure about the age of this example, handle (pommel) and ferrule is an early style but the blade shows sharp luks which is a sign of much later examples. I doubt that the fittings are from silver. Pommel seems to be from bone. All comments are welcome, special age guesses.

Here pictures of the gunong after it has received some maintenance. The fittings seems to be from (coin?) silver and are very well worked. I haven't etched the blade until now.
I think that this piece is post WWII. I am unsure if this is a very well worked early tourist example or worked for real use, what you think?

[Sajen]

Another recent addition, a rather big one, overall 12". Very unusual blade shape. Enjoy. :)

[kronckew]

gorgeous!
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s231/kronckew/Smilies/Funny/15.png

[Sajen]

gorgeous!


:D Thank you! :) ;)

[David]

Well, damn Det! That's a nice one! Love that blade. If it ever tells you it would like to vacation in the States give me a shout. ;) :)

[Sajen]

Well, damn Det! That's a nice one! Love that blade. If it ever tells you it would like to vacation in the States give me a shout. ;) :)

Hello David,

thank's as well! :D Will let you know in this case. ;)

Best regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

What an interesting blade!

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, For this style of gunong this one has the most well made blade I have yet to see. With the cutting edges being what I would describe as "hollow ground" it has a very pronounced medial ridge somewhat like those seen on a lot of the pieces from Africa. It is unfortunate that these photos do not give justice to this feature, but I will try to take some that will just as soon as the rain stops long enough for me to do so. This will make a wonderful addition to your ever growing collection of beautiful gunongs. Congratulations my friend on this great score that you have made. Once you have this in hand you will see how unique this blade really is. In the meantime, here is a poor quality photo that at least gives a little better idea of how pronounced the blade's medial ridge actually is.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

What an interesting blade!

Thank you Jose, it wasn't to seen by the seller pictures so it was a big extra present when seen first. :)

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef, For this style of gunong this one has the most well made blade I have yet to see. With the cutting edges being what I would describe as "hollow ground" it has a very pronounced medial ridge somewhat like those seen on a lot of the pieces from Africa. It is unfortunate that these photos do not give justice to this feature, but I will try to take some that will just as soon as the rain stops long enough for me to do so. This will make a wonderful addition to your ever growing collection of beautiful gunongs. Congratulations my friend on this great score that you have made. Once you have this in hand you will see how unique this blade really is. In the meantime, here is a poor quality photo that at least gives a little better idea of how pronounced the blade's medial ridge actually is.

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert,

thank you for your kind words and help, like you know it was a neglected piece and poorly photographed by the seller. I am more as happy with the outcome after you have given it some maintenance. And like all others I am not aware to have seen such a shape by gunong blades before.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Here a "new" family member, a rather "simple" exemplar. When it arrives at it destination was found that the handle was broken in two parts and the wooden parts of the scabbard are rotted.

The pictures showes it after my good friend Robert has restored the handle and has worked a complete new scabbard for it including the fittings for it. Again an outstanding work, now it is a beautiful example of this type. :)

[Ferguson]

Simple, sweet and honest little piece. Congratulations!

Nice work on the scabbard Robert. What type of wood did you use?

Steve

[Sajen]

Simple, sweet and honest little piece. Congratulations!

Thank you Steve! :)

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, I am very happy that you are pleased with the way that this has turned out. I just wish that the original scabbard could have been saved as well, but the wood rot was much too extensive to even attempt a restoration. When being handled the scabbard would actually start to crumble when touched in many areas. There is a small spot of this rot on the hilt (the dark spot) that I was able to stabilize so that no reprofiling of the wood of the hilt would be necessary.

Steve, Thank you for your kind words on the restoration work. The scabbard is made of wood salvaged from a couple of old talibong scabbards that were in themselves far too damaged to repair. I am not sure of what the correct name for this wood is, but it looks and has the grain pattern and characteristics of some of the mahoganies that I have worked with before.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

I am very happy that you are pleased with the way that this has turned out.

Very pleased my friend! :) :cool:

[Sajen]

QUITE A NICE DISPLAY AND CONGRADULATIONS ON AQUIRING SUCH AN UNUSUAL KNIFE.
I SAW THIS EXAMPLE OF PISTOL KNIFE SELL A WHILE BACK AS A CIVIL WAR BOWIE WITH A 7 INCH BLADE. IT LOOKS VERY SIMULAR, SO I PUT IT HERE FOR COMPARISON. I WONDER WHEN AND WHERE THESE WERE MADE. PERHAPS SPANISH AMERICAN WAR ERA OR SHORTLY THERE AFTER? :shrug:

Here another very nice one which was listed several times by ebay but extreme expensive and wrong described as made from a blacksmith from Texas! :D

[Sajen]

Here all four examples side by side for comparision.

[Robert]

Another great addition to your ever growing family of gunong Detlef. I really like the mother of pearl grips on this one. One day I hope to find one of these to add to my own small collection of gunong. Congratulations on another great score.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Another great addition to your ever growing family of gunong Detlef. I really like the mother of pearl grips on this one. One day I hope to find one of these to add to my own small collection of gunong. Congratulations on another great score.

Best,
Robert

Hello Robert,

no, not a new addition to my collection, sadly. It was far to expensive with nearly $500! :eek: I only want to show another one of this seldom seen type of gunong. About one year ago I've contacted the seller and told him that this dagger isn't for sure made from a blacksmith in Texas but from one at the Philippines but he never respond. ;)

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

That is a shame as it would have found a good home with lots of new friends. I have run into sellers before that have been told something outlandish about an item they have by a "so call expert" and there was absolutely no way possible to convince them otherwise. Even showing them published examples with the correct information about the item would not change their minds. :shrug:

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

That is a shame as it would have found a good home with lots of new friends. I have run into sellers before that have been told something outlandish about an item they have by a "so call expert" and there was absolutely no way possible to convince them otherwise. Even showing them published examples with the correct information about the item would not change their minds. :shrug:

Best,
Robert
Robert I have often found the same thing, and then figure out that the dealers paid way too much and so need to stiff others to get their money back out if the item. :rolleyes:

[Robert]

Robert I have often found the same thing, and then figure out that the dealers paid way too much and so need to stiff others to get their money back out if the item.

I believe that this is at times the same with individuals as well. Sometimes they will pay too much for something because they buy the story being told and not the item itself. Then instead of just writing it off as a bad decision they try to recoup their investment by passing on the same story (even knowing it is incorrect) in hope someone else will buy it. Others just make up their minds that what they have been told is the absolute truth and nothing can be said to change their minds.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

That is a shame as it would have found a good home with lots of new friends. I have run into sellers before that have been told something outlandish about an item they have by a "so call expert" and there was absolutely no way possible to convince them otherwise. Even showing them published examples with the correct information about the item would not change their minds. :shrug:

I've shown the seller also the pictures of the here shown other examples but like said don't get respond. It could be that Jose hit the bull's eye.
Here a part of the sellers description: You are bidding on a one of a kind custom made 1890's Gun Handled Boot Knife with its custom made leather sheath. It is absolutely perfect in every way. I was told by the person that I purchased the knife from that this knife was purchased many years ago from the great grandson of the maker of the knife - a blacksmith from San Antonio, Texas. The knife measures 8 1/8 inches long by 4 1/8 inches wide, and the blade is 1/4 inch at its widest point. The blade is accented with a simplistic geometric design. The handles are made of mother-of-pearl.

[Sajen]

I have to add pictures of a new addition to my collection, I think that it is from around 1910 until 1920. The fittings are from silver, enjoy.

[Sajen]

After long time I was able to add a "new" member to the family, sadly without scabbard but an early and somewhat unusual piece with 13 luk and a brass inlay on the blade, will post better pictures when I have it in my hands, here the seller pictures. The dagger is 26 cm long (10.24").

[Robert]

What a beautiful and what looks to be late 19th century example that you have been fortunate enough to add to your ever growing collection of gunongs. I cannot tell for sure from the photos so I ask, can tell me is the brass medial ridge is brazed to the surface of the blade or is it as I believe and is actually inlaid into it? Either way it makes for a most interesting as well as very unusual piece. My congratulations for your good fortune in acquiring this piece.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

the seller stated that it is an inlay on both sides but I will know it for sure when I have received it. And thank you for confirming my age guess and your kind words! :)

Best regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

I believe that what the seller has told you is correct. I just notice that in one of the photos you have posted that there is a section where it looks as though there might be a little separation of the two metals. This is something that is more indicative of this being an inlay than of a weld releasing. I have attached the photo below that shows this area a bit better, but we will only know for sure after it has arrived and you have had a chance to inspect it more closely.

Best,
Robert

[russel]

Stunning example Detlef, congratulations!

[Sajen]

I believe that what the seller has told you is correct. I just notice that in one of the photos you have posted that there is a section where it looks as though there might be a little separation of the two metals. This is something that is more indicative of this being an inlay than of a weld releasing. I have attached the photo below that shows this area a bit better, but we will only know for sure after it has arrived and you have had a chance to inspect it more closely.

Best,
Robert

Wow, you have a very good eye Robert! :)

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Stunning example Detlef, congratulations!

Thank you mate! :)

Regards,
Detlef

[Rafngard]

Wow!

Absolutely stunning.

Would the Brass inlay have talismanic properties here? Or is this likely just decorative?

Thanks,
Leif

[Sajen]

Wow!

Absolutely stunning.

Would the Brass inlay have talismanic properties here? Or is this likely just decorative?

Hi Leif,

thank you! :) Frankly said, I can't answer your good question. :shrug:
But what's funny, I purchased this little beauty from a german website similar like ebay.

Regards,
Detlef

[F. de Luzon]

A beautiful addition to your impressive collection! :)

Fernando

[Sajen]

A beautiful addition to your impressive collection! :)

Fernando

Thank you Fernando! :)

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Wow!

Absolutely stunning.

Would the Brass inlay have talismanic properties here? Or is this likely just decorative?

Thanks,
Leif
I believe the answer is "yes". Bronze, brass, and copper blades appear to be talismanic, and by extrapolation, their use on blades (along with silver) is used for talismanic purposes. In fact often they appear on blades lnlaid in talismanic forms like animals, the sun, stars, other symbols, and even script.

[Sajen]

Another new addition to the collection, just bought so here a few modified seller pictures.

[kai]

Neat - am looking forward to seeing the blade etched, Detlef!

[Sajen]

Neat - am looking forward to seeing the blade etched, Detlef!

Hello Kai,
thank you! Will need a little bit. I like this early gunongs with inlaid blades. I think it's a late 19th to very early 20th century piece.

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

I agree Detlef. I also like walker gunongs andd this one is a good one with great Maranao silver inlay.

Congratulations!

[Sajen]

I agree Detlef. I also like walker gunongs andd this one is a good one with great Maranao silver inlay.

Thank you Jose for confirming my age guess. What you mean by "walker gunong"?

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

I hate auto-correct! :mad:

This was a typo. It was supposed to say "earlier" gunongs.

In fact, I love this inlay best because it has truly traditional Maranao okir. Not seen one like it till now.

[kronckew]

thanks, had visions of an 1847 Walker Colt .44 gunong running thru my head. ;)

[Sajen]

thanks, had visions of an 1847 Walker Colt .44 gunong running thru my head. ;)


:D :D

[F. de Luzon]

Interesting details on that gunong, Detlef!

Fernando

[Sajen]

Interesting details on that gunong, Detlef!

Thank you Fernando, wait a little bit, there are hidden some more interesting details! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

A recent addition, later version around the 1940s but I like this style.

[Rafngard]

A recent addition, later version around the 1940s but I like this style.


Ahh, so you're the one who out bid me. No worries. It left me money to buy something else ;-)

I also like this style. It is a nice one. I really like the grain on the pommel and the okir.

I hope you enjoy it!

Have fun,
Leif

[Sajen]

Ahh, so you're the one who out bid me. No worries. It left me money to buy something else ;-)

I also like this style. It is a nice one. I really like the grain on the pommel and the okir.

I hope you enjoy it!

Thank you Leif,

but for this you've won the very nice Visayan daga! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Time for a family update picture!

[Battara]

W😳W! Nice collection there Detlef. You are now officially Tito Gunong 2 😃! (Tagalog for Uncle Gunong)

[Sajen]

:D Thank you Jose! :)

[Robert]

Detlef,
What a wonderful collection of gunongs you have been putting together. If ask I would have to say that even though they are all beautiful examples of the pandays art that the third one from the left and the one with the deeply cut blade that is ninth from the right are my favorites ones in this grouping. I am looking forward to seeing many more photos of new pieces as you find and adopt them into this family. :D


Best,
Robert

[CharlesS]

NICE Collection! You clearly have good taste and have been quite selective in your gunong acquisitions. Lovely pieces!

[Sajen]

If ask I would have to say that even though they are all beautiful examples of the pandays art that the third one from the left and the one with the deeply cut blade that is ninth from the right are my favorites ones in this grouping.

Thank you Robert as well for the work you have done on some of this examples. The two mentioned ones are also my favorites.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

NICE Collection! You clearly have good taste and have been quite selective in your gunong acquisitions. Lovely pieces!

Thank you Charles! Nice compliment! :) :cool:

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I think that I never have shown the sixth piece from the right in my last family picture, so here you go.
27,5 cm inside scabbard, 27,3 cm without, blade alone 17,8 cm, 213 gram. Age guess 1930s-1940s. Mounts from copper, brass and german silver.

[David]

I love the blade on this on Detlef. :)

[Sajen]

I love the blade on this on Detlef. :)

Thank you David, I am as well so I want to show it. The point of the blade is like a needle and the blade very well worked, a dagger for real business. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

[kronckew]

Sajen, that is gorgeous! <3

[Sajen]

Sajen, that is gorgeous! <3

Thank you Wayne,

glad you like it! ;)

[A. G. Maisey]

I have never looked closely at the gunong in its socio-cultural context, but browsing through this thread, it seems to me that there is a plethora of material for a rather solid sort of paper.

Has any such paper/article/commentary already been published?

[Sajen]

I have never looked closely at the gunong in its socio-cultural context, but browsing through this thread, it seems to me that there is a plethora of material for a rather solid sort of paper.

Has any such paper/article/commentary already been published?

There was once an online pamphlet from our member Federico Malibago but it's down. BTW, he visited the forum 2008 the last time, did someone know about him? :shrug: Sadly seems that nobody saved the text!?
And what we know exact? Most is a pure guessing game. And for my own person I can say that I don't will have the time for a project like this beside my job. :o :rolleyes:

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, Like David I really love the blade on this gunong. The simple but lovely engraving, the slender elegance of the needle pointed blade with its long sharpened false edge, the file work on the short flat section of the spine all combine to make this not only a truly beautiful dagger, but a seriously deadly one as well. Congratulations on yet another great addition to your collection.

Best,
Robert

[kronckew]

I recall that the US Army Occupation prohibited the Kris and Barongs from every day sash carry after losing a few troopers, but not the smaller (and just as deadly) gunongs. Many Moro sided with the US, tho a lot didn't. Bit like now, in Afghanistan, hard to tell who is on your side, or not.

[Sajen]

The simple but lovely engraving, the slender elegance of the needle pointed blade with its long sharpened false edge, the file work on the short flat section of the spine all combine to make this not only a truly beautiful dagger, but a seriously deadly one as well.

Hello Robert,
Thank you! :) You descibe exactly why I thought that it's worth to show some pictures from this piece.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

I recall that the US Army Occupation prohibited the Kris and Barongs from every day sash carry after losing a few troopers, but not the smaller (and just as deadly) gunongs.

Hello Wayne,

I think that I've read or heard the same, gunong become popular when long blades get prohibited.

Regards,
Detlef