English made Kacchin Dha...

[spiral]

Just came across this old English catalogue excerpt. & I wonder how many of the "ethnographic" mono or shear steel Kachin Dha blades we see {1621.}, were actualy made in a factory in England?

Other stuff as well.....

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

What a great find J, thanks for posting! Certainly makes for interesting consideration where non hairpin blades are concerned...Is it mentioned anywhere about outfitting Kachin soldiers loyal to the empire?

[spiral]

What a great find J, thanks for posting! Certainly makes for interesting consideration where non hairpin blades are concerned...Is it mentioned anywhere about outfitting Kachin soldiers loyal to the empire?

Not in the old regimental histories Ive read so far Gav. {Still one relevant one to find.}

But many Kachin were attached to V force behind enemy lines in Burma in ww2 & most of v forces Lee Enfield's & stens were made in Peshawar ,Tribal territory NWF.. due to short supply from the Indian arsenals & sub contractors.

So I always assumed there dha & kukri were local or Indian made but who knows?

spiral

spiral

[Andrew]

Great find, Spiral! Thanks for sharing.

I'm reposting this old thread about a sword I picked up 10 years ago. British markings...

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002441.html

[Ian]

Spiral:

That's a very interesting old catalog. The prices for these machete seem quite high for the late 19th and early 20th C (when this company was still operating under the name "William Hunt and Sons, The Brade." Apart from the Kachin dha, the other examples don't really resemble the indigenous forms very closely. The Burmese dha, for example, is a short curved chopper with a three part hilt that sort of resembles a Burmese dha hilt. Whether any of these British made pieces ended up in SE Asia is unknown, but the price of purchase in Britain and then the shipping costs would make these items uncompetitive (on a cost basis) with locally produced swords. So these British-made items would likely have been for local consumption IMO, or perhaps bought by British companies for use elsewhere. They should not be hard to distinguish from the locally made forms.

Andrew:

I think your example is exactly what we have come to see in many former British colonies: locally produced arms but to specs that would have been determined by the British. These local items would have to meet those specs before being stamped with the official government marks. To me your example looks like a typical Shan sword and scabbard, circa 1900, with a sturdier than usual hilt and a scabbard bound with metal strips.

Incidentally, during WWII, many of the Kachin Rangers were outfitted with Shan-style dha as military issue, although some probably brought their own dha with them.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/70-42/kachra.JPG

Ian.

[spiral]

Spiral:

That's a very interesting old catalog. The prices for these machete seem quite high for the late 19th and early 20th C (when this company was still operating under the name "William Hunt and Sons, The Brade." Apart from the Kachin dha, the other examples don't really resemble the indigenous forms very closely. The Burmese dha, for example, is a short curved chopper with a three part hilt that sort of resembles a Burmese dha hilt. Whether any of these British made pieces ended up in SE Asia is unknown, but the price of purchase in Britain and then the shipping costs would make these items uncompetitive (on a cost basis) with locally produced swords. So these British-made items would likely have been for local consumption IMO, or perhaps bought by British companies for use elsewhere. They should not be hard to distinguish from the locally made forms.

Andrew:

I think your example is exactly what we have come to see in many former British colonies: locally produced arms but to specs that would have been determined by the British. These local items would have to meet those specs before being stamped with the official government marks. To me your example looks like a typical Shan sword and scabbard, circa 1900, with a sturdier than usual hilt and a scabbard bound with metal strips.

Incidentally, during WWII, many of the Kachin Rangers were outfitted with Shan-style dha as military issue, although some probably brought their own dha with them.



Ian.

hi ian, interesting perspective.. I wonder who you think British companies sold such items to? Id guess catalogue prices were equivalent to todays... recommended retail price? I agree with you we have no evidence they were sold in south east asia ... but we also have no evidrnce they were not.

British made machetes ,cane knives & even kukri were in use around the world, in there usual countries exported by the UK .why do you think they wouldn't be in Burma? Standard colonial pattern while collecting the rubies & teak would be sell the locals the tools they needed as well.

The Burma police mark was BMP because it was the Burma military police about 20% of whom were Kachin.

Here's a photo showing a shan BMP chap with dha.


And also heres a great photo of a chindit with machete in Burma that also surprises many people. ;)

spiral


photos in wrong order... you can work it out though... ;)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/Chindit-Chopper.jpg

[Gavin Nugent]

Incidentally, during WWII, many of the Kachin Rangers were outfitted with Shan-style dha as military issue, although some probably brought their own dha with them.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/70-42/kachra.JPG

Ian.

Ian, Do you have a reference you can cite for this?

The Kachin have long used Shan type Dah and in some cases learnt how to fight with double swords of the type from Shan states, states that are found to the south of and north west of the Kachin tribes.

I strongly suspect and believe US forces did not out fit these people with Shan type Dah and that the type was already in use when recruited.

[spiral]

Ian, Do you have a reference you can cite for this?

The Kachin have long used Shan type Dah and in some cases learnt how to fight with double swords of the type from Shan states, states that are found to the south of and north west of the Kachin tribes.

I strongly suspect and believe US forces did not out fit these people with Shan type Dah and that the type was already in use when recruited.


I think you may be correct there Gav, although not a great photo in detail when blown up x4 every single dha or dah seems a radically different design, when it comes to individual features.

A couple of different style as issue would be quite usual to my mind, every one being different implies private & personal pieces to my way of thinking.

But any evidence either way would be great...

spiral

[spiral]

British Kachin troops 1920s with dah or dha!

The chap with a shotgun is a policeman.

spiral

[trenchwarfare]

Kachin Dha leather scabbards were sold as surplus, back in the 1980s. Open along the back edge, with English maker marks, broad arrows, and WWII dates.

[spiral]

Kachin Dha leather scabbards were sold as surplus, back in the 1980s. Open along the back edge, with English maker marks, broad arrows, and WWII dates.


Yes the standard Indan army pattern "dha" or "chindit " dha scabbards they were, probably not realy Kachin in style? Ive had a few of them & the dha over the year.

Here a scan from Flooks that shows the commonest patterns.{the ones on the left.}

The nore unusul one on the far right is the type still carried as a sidearm by the Assam regiment today.


Spiral

[Ian]

Gavin:

You are absolutely right. The Kachin have used Shan style dha for a long time. That the British had Burmese/Kachin troops wearing Shan style dha is well documented in the photographs provided by Spiral, and there are many 19th C pictures that confirm the civilian use of Shan dha by the Kachin.

Spiral's photographs of British uniformed troops with Shan type dha indicate that the British military in charge supported the use of such dha, and may have provided the dha or at least given the men an allowance to purchase a dha locally.

The picture of Kachin Rangers shows men wearing several Shan dha, the one on the left having a "parade style" silver-hlted version, and the others wearing the working man's dha with a wooden hilt covered by thin rattan strips. From the appearance of the hilt and scabbards on some of these, they appear to be fairly new.

With respect to the items in the catalog of William Hunt & Sons, I have done some online research on this company. The company did have a branch in Kenya and there is reference to a catalog for sales in Nairobi, but I have not found a copy of it. There is an online version of their 1941 catalog that shows the various die marks the company has used over the years--you can view the file here (http://toolemera.com/catpdf/BradesCat1941.pdf). I have never seen any of these marks on items coming from SE Asia or Southern Asia. Unfortunately, I was not able to copy the page with trademarks because of copy-protection on the PDF file. However, you can see by scrolling down a couple of pages into the file.

As far as the question regarding documentation of the US or British military supplying dha to the Kachin Rangers, I don't recall where I read that. Possibly in Carter Rila's article, or it may have been in one of my books about the Chindits. I last researched the topic when putting together the article on Contemporary Thai Swords on the old forum. In any case, I will try to find the reference for you.

Lastly, the 1940s-era machetes that you show are, as you say, commonly referred to as "Chindit machetes." I have only heard of them used in relation to the Chindit forces under Wingate. I've attached a picture of one of mine, not sure if this is a MkII or a MkIII with a MkII hilt.

Ian.

[Ian]

Spiral:

I'm pretty sure that there would not have been a whole lot of these dha sold in Burma. Consider the following economics.

The cost of the Kachin dha was 47s 6d per dozen, or roughly 4s each, in about 1900 (assuming that is the approximate date for the catalog shown above). The cost of a Burmese dha (high quality) was 67s per dozen or roughly 5s 6d each.

One pound in 1900 would be worth roughly 94 pounds per day. So converting the 1900 prices to today's equivalent would mean that a Hunt and Sons' Kachin dha cost 18 pounds 16s 0d in equivalent money today (or USD 30.33). According to the 1940 catalog, foreign shipments cost another 25% on top of the purchase price, so that would make a 1900 Kachin dha equivalent to 23 pounds 10s (or USD 37.90) today. The price for a Burmese dha plus shipping in today's currency would be roughly 32 pounds 16s (or USD52.90).

Recent economic data indicate that the average daily wage in Burma is USD 1.68-2.02, and average monthly wage is USD 50.51-50.61. And Burma has undergone economic growth since 1900, so that comparative wages should be better now than a century ago. Even so, it is apparent that the cost of William Hunt & Sons' products would have been outside the range affordable for the average Burmese/Kachin consumer in 1900 or today.

So who would have bought these expensive quality items in the colonies? Perhaps expatriots for employees on their plantations. Perhaps wealthy locals who had the money to buy them. But I doubt many would have found their way to the hill country where the largely untamed Kachin lived. Given the considerable savings in cost without any loss of quality from locally made dha, I doubt the foreign imports were very successful.

It is perhaps noteworthy that these machetes had disappeared from the catalog by 1940.

Ian.

[aiontay]

Weren't the British WWII Kachin forces called the Kachin Levies? The Kachin Rangers were the OSS organized forces.

[Ian]

Someone else has heard of the British using native dha to arm their troops during WWII. See comments by Berkeley on this thread (http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1003&sid=4435c1a6a8a5aa4b56096e8ee4d4ab82) on the IKRHS site.

[Ian]

I think you may be correct there Gav, although not a great photo in detail when blown up x4 every single dha or dah seems a radically different design, when it comes to individual features.Spiral:

I see only two styles. The man at far left has a more expensive silver hilted dha but the others have similar swords: round straight hilts wrapped with rattan strips, in wooden scabbards wrapped with rattan strips. Standard Shan style working dha. These are the same two styles as shown in your other pictures. I just don't see anything radically different in any of these photographs. In fact, they appear remarkably consistent to me.

Ian.

[spiral]

Yes I see your point re. the economics for individual tribespeople.

The purchase for the tea plantations, Opium plantations, timber companies, mining companies etc. Does seem highly likely, I would surmise some would then filter down to the villages. :shrug:

Id say your double edged DKW is a mark 2 myself. But that's just an opinion, Ive never found the paper work for their design.

Heres some pictures of plainer DKW one.

Is the bevel angle different on the spine to the front edge on yours?

The with the perception of radically different to me was compared to identical factory made issue products. To me they look different.

The Kachin levies were one of the Kachin units used by V force in ww2.

Units like the Burma military police, the Assam regiment, the Burma rifles, The Assam rifles & Some gurkha regiments also enlisted some in varying proportions as I recall. {My library is not to hand at moment.}

spiral

[spiral]

Thanks for mentioning the levies Aiontay! Just found this short video Of the Burma rifles in ww2, using many different types of Dah to make punji sticks.

Well worth watching.

Spiral

linky to film! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHkbODtud3E)

[spiral]

Interestingly Ian in the PDF you link to page 37 is missing... that's the one with the Dha on it!

Fascinating how many different marks they used though!

Not many Brit soldiers would want to collect the clearly British ones I doubt?

I wonder if there any sales records left? If the made dha for 50 odd years, they must have been selling a fair few!

spiral

[spiral]

It seems the national archives have many records of Brades etc. apparently.

The 1878 & 1951 catalogue do not included the so called Kachin dha or dah.

In your experience Ian what percentage of pre.1950 dha are monosteel or shear steel, compared to the laminated & hairpin patterns?

spiral

[spiral]

Someone else has heard of the British using native dha to arm their troops during WWII. See comments by Berkeley on this thread (http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1003&sid=4435c1a6a8a5aa4b56096e8ee4d4ab82) on the IKRHS site.

Actualy there not Berks comments, they are screen capture of an article you co-wrote along with others. ;)

http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/download/file.php?id=3664&sid=46844ffeec78b2dae518960983ea5632

Actualy from here originally...

linky (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/continentalsea.article.htm)

A complete circle!

spiral

[Ian]

In your experience Ian what percentage of pre.1950 dha are monosteel or shear steel, compared to the laminated & hairpin patterns?

spiralSpiral:

I have not etched all of my dha, and many more that I have handled have not been etched either, so it's really hard to say how many are laminated.

The older ones (pre 1900) that I etched were laminated, but not particularly bold patterns, sometimes best seen on the spine of the blade. As you know, hardened edges are found on some of the old dha.

First half of the 20th C dha I have seen very few examples of monosteel among those I have etched--perhaps 5-10%--but that is an educated guess and not based on a sample of any great number because I have not looked specifically for lamination on many of them.

I have most of my dha collection packed away at the moment because we are moving house in the next few months, so can't really be any more specific.

I did etch a number of recently made dha (made in the last 40 years) about 10 years ago and found them all to be unlaminated, but those were all of low quality blades and obviously made for the tourist trade/returning servicemen/etc.

Ian.

[Ian]

Actually they're not Berks comments, they are screen capture of an article you co-wrote along with others. ;)

http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/download/file.php?id=3664&sid=46844ffeec78b2dae518960983ea5632

Actually from here originally...

linky (http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/continentalsea.article.htm)

A complete circle!

spiralAaah! Interesting. No wonder Berk's comment seemed so familiar...

That particular section was written by Andrew, if I recall correctly, so perhaps that is what I was remembering. In any case, I believe there is an original source for that comment and I will continue looking for it.

Ian

[Ian]

Id say your double edged DKW is a mark 2 myself. But that's just an opinion, Ive never found the paper work for their design.

Here's some pictures of plainer DKW one.

Is the bevel angle different on the spine to the front edge on yours?

spiralSpiral:

From memory, the bevel angle was a little flatter on the cutting edge versus the back edge, but I don't have that one with me at the moment.

Ian

[Andrew]

Aaah! Interesting. No wonder Berk's comment seemed so familiar...

That particular section was written by Andrew, if I recall correctly, so perhaps that is what I was remembering. In any case, I believe there is an original source for that comment and I will continue looking for it.

Ian

I did, indeed, write that. I was referring to the very weapons that started this thread.

Unfortunately, it appears I did not discuss the photo of my sword with the "B P" and broad-arrow marks and, instead only supplied that horrible auction photo.

In my defense, I can only offer that I recall we were on a tight deadline and I had intended to both discuss that marked example and provide a better photo (i.e. the exhibition's catalog photo, below), but did not get to it before the catalog went to print. :o

[Andrew]

It seems the national archives have many records of Brades etc. apparently.

The 1878 & 1951 catalogue do not included the so called Kachin dha or dah.

In your experience Ian what percentage of pre.1950 dha are monosteel or shear steel, compared to the laminated & hairpin patterns?

spiral

Spiral, the Kachin "sword-dao" with the flared pommel and flared, flat tips are often laminated steel.

Of the swords we collectively refer to as "dah", "dha", or "daab", I have only seen a handful with obvious laminate construction prior to etching. One such is pictured below, with the Burmese date of 1242 Chulasakarat (1880 C.E.) inlaid at the forte in gold (previously believed to be brass). The blade is extremely thin, for this type of weapon, light, flexible and razor-sharp. One of the finest Continental SEA sword blades I have ever seen. It also appears in an early W.D. Oldman catalog.

Many (even most) have differentially-hardened edges. Some have inserted edges similar to Chinese san-mei, and I have one very fine example that exhibits a crystalline structure when etched/polished I would like to believe is crucible-steel (but more likely shear :o ).

[spiral]

Spiral:

I have not etched all of my dha, and many more that I have handled have not been etched either, so it's really hard to say how many are laminated.

The older ones (pre 1900) that I etched were laminated, but not particularly bold patterns, sometimes best seen on the spine of the blade. As you know, hardened edges are found on some of the old dha.

First half of the 20th C dha I have seen very few examples of monosteel among those I have etched--perhaps 5-10%--but that is an educated guess and not based on a sample of any great number because I have not looked specifically for lamination on many of them.

I have most of my dha collection packed away at the moment because we are moving house in the next few months, so can't really be any more specific.

I did etch a number of recently made dha (made in the last 40 years) about 10 years ago and found them all to be unlaminated, but those were all of low quality blades and obviously made for the tourist trade/returning servicemen/etc.

Ian.


Thanks Ian, I ve had very similar experiences with kukri.

By WW2 most mono steel, before & early WW1 mostly shear or blister or laminated in some way.

Some very high quality mono steel kukris in the 1920s though.

spiral

[spiral]

Aaah! Interesting. No wonder Berk's comment seemed so familiar...

That particular section was written by Andrew, if I recall correctly, so perhaps that is what I was remembering. In any case, I believe there is an original source for that comment and I will continue looking for it.

Ian

Ahh yes , Ive read important historical quotes on forums about kukri, & after a little research it turns out I was the source!

Just without the "possibly ,probably or I think" statements, that I had originally made!

Thank you.

spiral

[spiral]

Spiral:

From memory, the bevel angle was a little flatter on the cutting edge versus the back edge, but I don't have that one with me at the moment.

Ian

mmm fascinating Ian, I wonder if primary edge was for butchery {As in weapon use.} & vines & back edge for bamboo timber cutting splitting etc.?

spiral

[spiral]

I did, indeed, write that. I was referring to the very weapons that started this thread.

Unfortunately, it appears I did not discuss the photo of my sword with the "B P" and broad-arrow marks and, instead only supplied that horrible auction photo.

In my defense, I can only offer that I recall we were on a tight deadline and I had intended to both discuss that marked example and provide a better photo (i.e. the exhibition's catalog photo, below), but did not get to it before the catalog went to print. :o

No defence needed Andrew, time is often to short in life....

Spiral

[spiral]

Spiral, the Kachin "sword-dao" with the flared pommel and flared, flat tips are often laminated steel.

Of the swords we collectively refer to as "dah", "dha", or "daab", I have only seen a handful with obvious laminate construction prior to etching. One such is pictured below, with the Burmese date of 1242 Chulasakarat (1880 C.E.) inlaid at the forte in gold (previously believed to be brass). The blade is extremely thin, for this type of weapon, light, flexible and razor-sharp. One of the finest Continental SEA sword blades I have ever seen. It also appears in an early W.D. Oldman catalog.

Many (even most) have differentially-hardened edges. Some have inserted edges similar to Chinese san-mei, and I have one very fine example that exhibits a crystalline structure when etched/polished I would like to believe is crucible-steel (but more likely shear :o ).

Fascinating Andrew, I do love the Kachin double hairpin ones, I think there amazing!

Sadley never had one, seen 2 in small UK auctions in the last 14 years, but one was before the kukris , so I couldn't bid high enough & the other time it was after the kukris & Id spent my money.

Looking back I should have got the Dha... The kukri were good , but A dha like that is special I think.

Sounds like you love that 1242 Chulasakarat dha, for a senior person then if thin light & razor sharp! {Not to mention a gold inlay.} No utility work for that one!


Have you any links or good pics of the one with crystalline structure to share?

It would be fascinating to see.

spiral

[Andrew]

Jonathan, the blade on that dated dha is really special. The fittings are pedestrian, and the scabbard that appeared with it in the Oldman catalog is long-gone, but doesn't look particularly fancy or highly decorated.

Perhaps a master swordsman? The body-guard of a wealthy individual? A professional dueler? Soldier? We are only limited by our imagination. :)

Parenthetically, I have not been able to find anything significant about that 1880 date in Burma. It was during the reign of Burma's last monarch, Thibaw, and five years prior to the third Anglo-Burmese war and Burma's annexation by Britain.

I have never been able to capture the "pattern" in the crystalline-structured dha, but haven't tried with a modern hi-res digital camera recently. I know you're familiar with the difficulty--tilting the blade 'just so' in certain lighting and the pattern becomes visible. :rolleyes:

Best,
A

[spiral]

Interesting stuff Andrew, Great to have found it in Oldmans.

If you ever "catch" it in a photo it would be nice to see.

Spiral

[spiral]

Spiral:

Apart from the Kachin dha, the other examples don't really resemble the indigenous forms very closely. The Burmese dha, for example, is a short curved chopper with a three part hilt that sort of resembles a Burmese dha hilt.

Ian.

Fascinatingly The "Burma dah" from the initial catalogue I posted interestingly looks very like the "Burma cleaver" posted by Andrew from the Oldman catalogue.

As Dha,Dah etc. means knife Id guess, It was a correct after all? :shrug:

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Andrew, I can not bring to light any detail about your dated sword but there are others with the same blade types and markings known, also in basic dress....a reader here has shared one with me and other members...perhaps it will find its way to these pages when a new home has been found for it...

[Gavin Nugent]

Fascinatingly The "Burma dah" from the initial catalogue I posted interestingly looks very like the "Burma cleaver" posted by Andrew from the Oldman catalogue.

As Dha,Dah etc. means knife Id guess, It was a correct after all? :shrug:

spiral

Indeed Spiral, it is a known type throughout the region...I had a nice old one a while back and have seen many others in all styles and levels of quality...I think I listed mine as Thai but for all good intents and purposes it fits Burma too with its simple iron fittings...I have an even smaller example of kitchen size in silver and timber hilt dress, one that I traded back and Nathaniel was good enough to translate for me as it has text on the blade...dated 1910...

[spiral]

Indeed Spiral, it is a known type throughout the region...I had a nice old one a while back and have seen many others in all styles and levels of quality...

Ahh that's great then Gav. it seems the Hunt & Brades designs are not so far fetched as Ian first thought perhaps then. {I am sure other Brit. companies & possible German ones, would also compete in the market.}

Id guess as in that era as England ruled half of of Africa, the Caribbean & Asia as well & exports as well as imports were key {as always..} many were probably sold, particularly to the major oil,teak,rubber,opium,sugar,corn,coffee, ruby, gold silver diamond & safari type companies Id guess. :shrug: {ETC.etc.]

Id also surmise the published prices were for anyone that daft to pay them..... If you wanted a few hundred , every couple of yearsI bet you could get them for peanuts... {Particularly if you went to the same school or belonged to the same club.}

They would cost more than the local produce for sure, but of a consistent style & steel. {And good for business.;) }

Spiral

[Ian]

Spiral:

I think we need to look at the Oldman's catalog with a critical eye as to the attributions of the items shown as Burmese. While it is possible that these may have been found and brought back to England from Rangoon or Mandalay, a number of them are not typical of Burmese work (and by Burmese I mean produced in Burma for the indigenous population). While it was common practice that conquering armies would bring back craftsmen from their conquered territories to continue their fine crafts in a new home, it takes some time for the new arts and crafts to be assimilated into a new culture. For example, when the Thai conquered Laos and brought back Lao craftsmen, it took some time to assimilate the longer hilted Lao daab into an accepted Thai form. So there has been a long history of diffusion of styles over time. That said, there appear to be some inaccuracies in the Oldman catalog.

Looking at the image below, and starting from the top, number 10 has an unusually long hilt for a Burmese dha and is more likely Thai. Numbers 2 and 3 are Shan/Thai work and either from the Shan States (partly in Burma) or southern Yunnan. Number 5 could also be Thai. Number 4 we can probably say with some confidence is not Burmese, but more likely northern Thai/Lao in origin and perhaps coming from one of the hill tribes (Montagnard) of that region given the unusual shape of the tip.

Which brings us to number 12, the one that resembles the item labeled Burmese dha in the Hunt & Sons catalog. As Gavin rightly points out, this resembles a common tool used in Thailand. I don't know if it is used in Burma these days, but I did not see it there 25 years ago. It is not used as a knife but is more like a short handled axe, primarily for chopping bamboo and even not-so-small trees. Some of the modern versions come with a hollow handle to mount the blade on a pole. One name for this tool is e-toh and there is a version made by the Aranyik company. These show up regularly on eBay. I don't believe that the locals would classify this tool as a dha, and I have never heard it referred to as a "knife."

My last word on the William Hyde and Sons products in SE Asia. In my 50+ years of traveling in various parts of mainland SE Asia, Indonesia and the Philippines, I have not come across any of these items. I have seen other brands of European-made machetes and tools, just none from this particular company. That's not to say they weren't there at some time.

Ian.

[spiral]

Spiral:

I think we need to look at the Oldman's catalog with a critical eye as to the attributions of the items shown as Burmese. While it is possible that these may have been found and brought back to England from Rangoon or Mandalay,.

Fair enough Ian, lets cast a critical eye... ;)

Why Rangoon & Mandalay Ian? England ruled India at that time, & Burma was classed as part of India at that time. It could have been collected anywhere in Burma, after we had spent many years conquering them it was all British. The weapons, the teak, the opium, the oil the rubies, the tigers etc.etc. {Shades of the King & I!}


a number of them are not typical of Burmese work (and by Burmese I mean produced in Burma for the indigenous population). While it was common practice that conquering armies would bring back craftsmen from their conquered territories to continue their fine crafts in a new home, it takes some time for the new arts and crafts to be assimilated into a new culture. For example, when the Thai conquered Laos and brought back Lao craftsmen, it took some time to assimilate the longer hilted Lao daab into an accepted Thai form.,.


mmm Indigenous population of Burma is an interesting statement.... Who was indigenous when? Same as the USA, Australia or even the UK. Not many country's where humans truly originated,, history isn't like that, it appears we all spread out across the world from Africa according to modern research. So in modern parlance I think the word indigenous, does need a dating factor added.

I would say Burma has a complex history of wars & indeed used to rule Thailand/Siam , at one point for a couple of hundred years I think? It has 135 recognised ethnic groups of people living there {According to the Burmese government.} & that not even including domiciled Gurkhas of 4 & 5 generations born there & very other groups , such as Anglo Burmese who have probably lived there even longer! & Numerous others not counted as indigenous.

So there has been a long history of diffusion of styles over time. ..,.

Exactly! Amalgamation of style not separation. ;) That's the point you seem to be missing in your approach.

That said, there appear to be some inaccuracies in the Oldman catalog..,. I am sure, not many works or even authority's are always correct, let alone sale catalogues!


So lets break down your step by step opinions on these inaccuracies you describe. Ive added past quotes by Mark Bowditch {Auther of Dha Research Index} about the exact same weapons from the Oldman catalogue..
.................................................. .................................................. ......


Looking at the image below, and starting from the top, number 10 has an unusually long hilt for a Burmese dha and is more likely Thai....

Or Another's view....

7)-10) Burman, based on the relatively straight blades and square tips of the scabbards could possibly be Shan, based on the somewhat longer grip, but I am sticking with Burman ]; .
.................................................. .................................................. .....


Numbers 2 and 3 are Shan/Thai work and either from the Shan States (partly in Burma) or southern Yunnan. .

Shan states "partly" in Burma? Realy! Its the second largest population in Burma covering large territory's.

See tribal map attached. Turquoise areas are shan...


It is not unlikely that all of these swords were collected in Burma, since the Shan items likely come from the Shan States in Eastern Burma. .


I agree with Mark here, its highly likely to be Burmese shan, As I showed in pictures early in this thread shan style weapons were in common use even among the Kachin & Burma rifles units.

.................................................. .................................................. ......


Number 5 could also be Thai. Number 4 we can probably say with some confidence is not Burmese, but more likely northern Thai/Lao in origin and perhaps coming from one of the hill tribes (Montagnard) of that region given the unusual shape of the tip.

Or Another's view....
4)&5) I believe this to be a Burman style might possible be a Ratankosin era Thai dha, based on the unadorned silver covered scabbard, the pommel and flared ferrule, but overall the handle looks wrong – the pommel is a touch too big and it looks to have either wood or rattan wrapping in the middle; .

.................................................. .................................................. ......

Which brings us to number 12, the one that resembles the item labeled Burmese dha in the Hunt & Sons catalog. As Gavin rightly points out, this resembles a common tool used in Thailand. .,.

Or Another's view....
12) dha-ma chopper that could be from just about anywhere in Burma or northern Thailand; .


Or as Gavin also put it.

Indeed Spiral, it is a known type throughout the region.
.................................................. .................................................. ..


I don't know if it is used in Burma these days, but I did not see it there 25 years ago. It is not used as a knife but is more like a short handled axe, primarily for chopping bamboo and even not-so-small trees. Some of the modern versions come with a hollow handle to mount the blade on a pole. One name for this tool is e-toh and there is a version made by the Aranyik company. These show up regularly on eBay. I don't believe that the locals would classify this tool as a dha, and I have never heard it referred to as a "knife.".,.


Ahh yes me bad... I should have said Dha-ma, apparently that's how the locals classify it. ;)


They also come in much smaller sizes. Not all large things for chopping bamboo. I recall Gavin had a very small one.

.
My last word on the William Hyde and Sons products in SE Asia. In my 50+ years of traveling in various parts of mainland SE Asia, Indonesia and the Philippines, I have not come across any of these items.


Your last word? OK. :shrug:

I hope you at least found the pictures of Kachin troops with shan Dah & the video of the Burma rifles using, issue "Chindit" dha, as well as more ethnographic looking arms of both Kachin & Shan styles in use, making punji stakes. Interesting at least? :shrug:

I am sure there must be many more pics out there. I have an Anglo Burmese friend {Also a kukri collector.} from a long line of very senior Burma military police ,I ve not even asked about this yet.


You were very lucky to spend 50 years traveling the Orient... for many people that's the stuff dream lives are made off. :)


As for the fact you didn't see them there 25 years ago guess most 50 or 100 year old Dha-ma in Burma would have long since been battered to bits by the locals? :shrug:


As an addendum.

Here another example shared on this forum in the past by. dennee

These are in the Pitt-Rivers Museum in Oxford. The label reads "Varieties of the Burmese da for various uses. Pres[ente]d by Capt. R.C. Temple R.E., 1889."

Photo of display attached below.

Your reply to dennee was...


Like many museum collections, mislabeling is quite common. In the photo you show from the Pitt-Rivers, the bottom one on the right is a form of tool, similar to a heavy knife still used for splitting coconuts. The bottom one on the right is also a heavy utility knife.

The second from bottom on the left is a pisau raut (rattan knife), used for splitting rattan into strips. This style is common today in northern Thailand/Cambodia -- the long hilt is rested against the chest and the blade lies on a flat surface, with the rattan being drawn along the cutting edge towards the cutter who is seated. The second from bottom on the left appears to be a heavier bladed variant of the same.

The rest are knives and short swords, some of which are probably Burmese, but a couple of the longer hilted ones could be Thai. Hard to make out the detail of the hilts. Interesting collection of blades.
.


4 are clearly of this style, 2 of them only have the exact hilt you described at the start of this thread re. my posting of the William Hyde and Sons {Better of course known as Brades.{& about 20 other names}} as....


Apart from the Kachin dha, the other examples don't really resemble the indigenous forms very closely.The Burmese dha, for example, is a short curved chopper with a three part hilt that sort of resembles a Burmese dha hilt.

So lets see, We have 5 historical collected examples of these choppers from Burma., {local name Dha-ma.} 4 with sheeps foot blades & Two with hilts like the Brades catalogue examples, {One of which also has the sheeps foot blade.}


I realise not all collectors & researcher's agree with one another, But It seem such tools/weapons as the Burmese Dha ma were in usage in Burma a C.100 years ago.

Which is probably why British companies made & no doubt exported them.


spiral


2nd. addendum.


Ian ,you missed out the one on that page of Oldmans that Mark, says defintly is not Burman. Dha No1.


It is not unlikely that all of these swords (not considering the ones in the picture of the shop itself) were collected in Burma, since the Shan items likely come from the Shan States in Eastern Burma. The odd man out is #1, which I am pretty sure is a Lanna style, which would make it from the region further east, around Chiang Mai or Luang Prabang. However, given the constant warfare between Burma and Thailand, it is not unreasonable to assume this one made its way into Burma as a spoil of war.

The last sentence I particularly like.

"However, given the constant warfare between Burma and Thailand, it is not unreasonable to assume this one made its way into Burma as a spoil of war"


I would have to agree with Marks reasoning there, even if any of the 5 listed as historical Burma brings backs listed in this thread, from old "at time" collections originated in Thailand, they were taken back & used there by "indigenous peoples!, who recognised & were familiar with them particlarily in the case of Dha-ma, as apart from a little handle styling {possibly? }there are identical to those regularly made & used in Burma by some of the 135 indigenous groups of people, 100 years ago.


Spiral

PS.

Ian your posted picture of the Kachin rangers appears deleted from the outside host you listed it from. Can you re.list it please, so people can follow the thread properly. ;)

[spiral]

Ian your posted picture of the Kachin rangers appears deleted from the outside host you listed it from. Can you re.list it please, so people can follow the thread properly. ;)

No worry's here's a few copys... Kachin rangers in US service not UK service. {As Aiontay pointed out quite rightly.}

Spiral

[Ian]

Spiral:

Work is keeping me very busy at the moment and I have not been able to spend as much time here as I would like.

Your detailed responses to some of my comments would suggest that you are bothered by them, and I apologize if I have offended you in any way.

I do not have the time to give your detailed replies the necessary attention they deserve right now, so I shall get back to you later this week. BTW, the photo link to which you refer seems to be working OK on my screen, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

Ian.

[spiral]

Spiral:

Work is keeping me very busy at the moment and I have not been able to spend as much time here as I would like.

Your detailed responses to some of my comments would suggest that you are bothered by them, and I apologize if I have offended you in any way.

I do not have the time to give your detailed replies the necessary attention they deserve right now, so I shall get back to you later this week. BTW, the photo link to which you refer seems to be working OK on my screen, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

Ian.



Hi Ian I am not offended. ;) Quite understand your busy. No problem.No apologies needed & sorry if my step by step approach caused you any concern. Alls fine & its just chatting about bits of stuff on a forum after all.

Its just you drew so many points into your reason to distrust Oldman to enhance you stance & reinforce your statement that no such tool resembling the Burma Dha made by Brades was traditionally used in Burma.

So I thought I would deal with each point as best I could. :shrug:

That's not an unusual thing for me to do....Ive done it before.

So I was just trying to point out it seems from other evidence on the forum that the Brades style is a "traditional Burma dha"

Although obviously should it be called the Dha-ma. It seems to me , it certainly existed in Burma long ago.

So what with Marks comments & with your past comments re. the Dennee examples from the Pitt rivers collection which at least for the shorter handled "Burma dha handled" ones you accepted as Burmese rather than Thai. I thought that presented a good case? So I presented it..

Sorry if the detailed response to the numerous aside points you had drawn together, came across rude. I would have much rather just discussed the Kachin & Burma style designs , but as you drew others in to add weight to your argument I thought I should reply in full to each of those points.

Re. your pic, it is just a red x for me. :shrug:

spiral

[aiontay]

Some of the Shan States are not part of China due to colonial agreements between the British and Chinese. I'd also point out that the map does not show the Shan States or State singular these days, but a very generalized map of ethnic regions in Burma.

[spiral]

Some of the Shan States are not part of China due to colonial agreements between the British and Chinese. I'd also point out that the map does not show the Shan States or State singular these days, but a very generalized map of ethnic regions in Burma.

Thank you Aiontay!

Would the map have been more accurate tribally speaking 50 or 100 years ago?

If not can provide a more accurate map particularilary of around 1900?

Although for sake of knowledge a currant map would also be interesting to compare, how things have changed.

Spiral

[aiontay]

Spiral,

I know enough about cartography and the bewildering complexity that is/was/shall be Burma's ethnic mixture to know that vouching for the accuracy of any map, especially without explicit parameters laid out, is a fool's errand.

Take for example the Shan States. Sounds easy enough to define but...well, like I said, a fool's errand. If you really are serious, I would suggest finding a copy of Martin Smith's "Burma: Insurgency and the Politics of Ethnicity" and read and chapters 2,3,5 and 16. It certainly won't answer your questions, but it is certainly more concise and informed answer than I'll ever be able to give you.

[spiral]

Spiral,

I know enough about cartography and the bewildering complexity that is/was/shall be Burma's ethnic mixture to know that vouching for the accuracy of any map, especially without explicit parameters laid out, is a fool's errand.

Take for example the Shan States. Sounds easy enough to define but...well, like I said, a fool's errand. If you really are serious, I would suggest finding a copy of Martin Smith's "Burma: Insurgency and the Politics of Ethnicity" and read and chapters 2,3,5 and 16. It certainly won't answer your questions, but it is certainly more concise and informed answer than I'll ever be able to give you.

Thank you Aiontay, I understand what you mean, my questions were serious but I don't intend to spend hours on it particularly given your explanation, that in truth any such map will include massive generalisations etc.

spiral

[ausjulius]

Spiral:

The price for a Burmese dha plus shipping in today's currency would be roughly 32 pounds 16s (or USD52.90).

Recent economic data indicate that the average daily wage in Burma is USD 1.68-2.02, and average monthly wage is USD 50.51-50.61. And Burma has undergone economic growth since 1900, so that comparative wages should be better now than a century ago. Even so, it is apparent that the cost of William Hunt & Sons' products would have been outside the range affordable for the average Burmese/Kachin consumer in 1900 or today.

Ian.

in the contrary, wages are much worse in burma since the time in was a british colony.. you must consider india was far far poorer than burma at the time..
you are confusing the amount fo wage earning people with.. increae in wages.. burma in the 1900s a burmese bureaucrat would have had a reasonably good income by local standards. far superior that what he same job would pay in today's standards. maybe 5 or 6 times higher.. so the beaurcracy and the upper classes had money to spend things were not all doom and gloo as the situation has been there slice 1948... rememebr burma was one of the most production portion of the british empire and the larges food producer in aisa.. so considering there were very few europeans living there the profit form a lot of the trade did go to local persons.. who would purchase things as they do..


now also consider something- people did full well understand that european blade steel was far superior to their own.. by virtue of correct hardening and heat treatment and lack of flaws in the blade.. correct steel ect..
so just as we like to buy new or interesting things or something different im sure then there would have been a customer or two as well.. if your a rich local and you see a native style of blade in a catalog but made in english.. why maybe youd be curious to try it..

and they did actually buy these things... i had in the past parang blades form 2 different british makers of a very high quality..

iim more than sure the volume would have been tiny.. as the purchase of european styles was in vouge with the rich, sabres .. small swords.. ect.. they had their local products made to their specific requirments......... being that mostly the european style weapons were by this time decorations.. unsuted for use as a real weapon.. more a status symbol to wear when you got a foto taken. im sure some fo these more functional native style tools were made... .. so im sure if we were able to find the records from these producers well see that they did indeed sell some of these.. im sure a small quantity but rich people liked to buy weapons in those days to arm their guards.. for them selves to collect ect.
if you look at many catalogs form the 19th and 20th century form british india youll find a lot of this stuff in there.. marketed to all the rajahs .. and ill be sur ein burma malaya ect.. it was like that too... just on a small scale..

[Ian]

Ausjulius:

You are essentially making the same point that I was making. If you look at the last sentence that you quoted from my earlier post,

"Even so, it is apparent that the cost of William Hunt & Sons' products would have been outside the range affordable for the average Burmese/Kachin consumer in 1900 or today"

I was simply saying that the cost of these "luxury" items was way more than an ordinary Burmese person could afford in 1900 or today. That a few may have been sold to wealthier locals is certainly possible.

[stephen wood]

Spiral:

That's a very interesting old catalog. The prices for these machete seem quite high for the late 19th and early 20th C (when this company was still operating under the name "William Hunt and Sons, The Brade."



I think the price is per dozen...

[Ian]

I think the price is per dozen...Hi Stephen:

Yes, the price is per dozen, but if one does the calculation of cost per item (including shipping to Burma from England), we come out with a number that would have been beyond that affordable by the average Burmese in the early 1900s or today. I did the calculations in post #13 of this thread.

Ian.

[spiral]

in the contrary, wages are much worse in burma since the time in was a british colony.. you must consider india was far far poorer than burma at the time..
you are confusing the amount fo wage earning people with.. increae in wages.. burma in the 1900s a burmese bureaucrat would have had a reasonably good income by local standards. far superior that what he same job would pay in today's standards. maybe 5 or 6 times higher.. so the beaurcracy and the upper classes had money to spend things were not all doom and gloo as the situation has been there slice 1948... rememebr burma was one of the most production portion of the british empire and the larges food producer in aisa.. so considering there were very few europeans living there the profit form a lot of the trade did go to local persons.. who would purchase things as they do..


now also consider something- people did full well understand that european blade steel was far superior to their own.. by virtue of correct hardening and heat treatment and lack of flaws in the blade.. correct steel ect..
so just as we like to buy new or interesting things or something different im sure then there would have been a customer or two as well.. if your a rich local and you see a native style of blade in a catalog but made in english.. why maybe youd be curious to try it..

and they did actually buy these things... i had in the past parang blades form 2 different british makers of a very high quality..

iim more than sure the volume would have been tiny.. as the purchase of european styles was in vouge with the rich, sabres .. small swords.. ect.. they had their local products made to their specific requirments......... being that mostly the european style weapons were by this time decorations.. unsuted for use as a real weapon.. more a status symbol to wear when you got a foto taken. im sure some fo these more functional native style tools were made... .. so im sure if we were able to find the records from these producers well see that they did indeed sell some of these.. im sure a small quantity but rich people liked to buy weapons in those days to arm their guards.. for them selves to collect ect.
if you look at many catalogs form the 19th and 20th century form british india youll find a lot of this stuff in there.. marketed to all the rajahs .. and ill be sur ein burma malaya ect.. it was like that too... just on a small scale..

Excellent & concise post Ausjulius!

spiral

[spiral]

I think your still missing a major point Ian.

The massive Burmah oil, the teak, rubber, opium, sugar, tea, ruby, gold, silver, sapphire & rice industry,imports & exports were all English run & the major employment base in Burma. Many were among some of the largest company's in the world at that time.

Such industry's were I believe highly likely to buy English goods, after all many Naga axe dha are clearly made from imported British hoe blades... so it seems likely that many other such tools would also be imported.

spiral

[Ian]

Ausjulius and Spiral:

I really think we are agreed on the possible place these luxury goods might have had in Burmese society of 1900. As I noted in my original post:So who would have bought these expensive quality items in the colonies? Perhaps ex-patriots for employees on their plantations. Perhaps wealthy locals who had the money to buy them. But I doubt many would have found their way to the hill country where the largely untamed Kachin lived.
I suppose poorer people in that time could have obtained these tools in much the same way the Naga obtained English-made hoes to create their dao, by appropriating them in the dark of night.

Ian.