Kris

[CCUAL]

I placed a bid on this non-eye catching kris last week on ebay. I thought it has potential....

[CCUAL]

the blade came up decent.....

[Loedjoe]

You were quite right about its potential - congratulations on a very nice blade.

[Gustav]

Congratulations, a very rare Pamor combination - 4 twisted bars at base of the blade (in a form resembling Pamor Ujung Gunung) and the same Pamor Ujung Gunung done in a common way at the tip of the blade.

Unfortunately Greneng and Kembang Kacang areas are severely reshaped.

(Sorry for using javanese Keris terminology.)

[David]

Unfortunately Greneng and Kembang Kacang areas are severely reshaped. (Sorry for using javanese Keris terminology.)
I am not convinced of this. I have certainly seen similar greneng on Moro kris and all kinds of sized and shaped "elephant trunks". :shrug:

[Sajen]

Wow, beautiful pattern and twistcore, can you show please the complete kris?

I also don't think that greneng and kembang kacang (katik) are reshaped, worn yes but doubt that this areas are reshaped.

Regards,
Detlef

[CCUAL]

Wow, beautiful pattern and twistcore, can you show please the complete kris?

I also don't think that greneng and kembang kacang (katik) are reshaped, worn yes but doubt that this areas are reshaped.

Regards,
Detlef



as requested....

[Battara]

Great and unusual catch!

[Ferguson]

The blade came up decent? That's an understatement! Gorgeous!
Steve

[Sajen]

as requested....

Thank you very much! Now I know what I have missed because I don't bid! :D

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

I also don't think that greneng and kembang kacang (katik) are reshaped, worn yes but doubt that this areas are reshaped.

Regards,
Detlef
I agree completely.

[CCUAL]

finally had time to fix up this kris. It has cracks and missing piece on the ivory but it adds character. thnks

[Sajen]

finally had time to fix up this kris.

Wow, great result! :) From where you get the handle and scabbard?

Regards,
Detlef

[CCUAL]

My bad, I forgot to attach.

[CCUAL]

Wow, great result! :) From where you get the handle and scabbard?

Regards,
Detlef



The scabbard and the handle came together with a broken blade, luckily the clamp fits perfectly, so its just basically transferring the hardware to the new blade, with some grinding to the mouth of the scabbard. I got this at an antique store in Yuma, Arizona.

[DaveS]

Chris: Two great looking twist-cores. You did really good. I think both would go late 1800s to very early 1900s. Can't do much better than that. Haven't seen you since the Pasadena Knife Show. That was more than a few years ago................Dave.

[kai]

Hello Chris,

Congrats, great score! (No idea how I missed this thread...)

I'm not sure if I would have changed the hilt - I believe this kris originally had 2 clamps. The "new" hilt with silver braiding is very nice though!

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Very nice kris.

The blade looks Maranao in origin with an unusual laminated pattern. The replaced hilt looks more Sulu than Maranao, while the scabbard looks very new and also Sulu in style. The materials used for the scabbard are non-traditional in a number of ways, with the use of large headed nails and a rattan wrap that I have trouble placing.

Ian.

[CCUAL]

Hello Dave, long time no see and talk, I might drop by at the Pasadena knife show this year. I would like to show you a large twistcore kris that I acquired yrs back. Send my regards to Lonna.

Ian, I might be wrong but thru my years of collecting moro weapons and moro weapons only, I have seen several kinds of scabbards with small and large nails, and the used of rattan wraps but styles varies this style I've seen other wise I won't use. The scabbard came with large head nails not newly added but original to it. It doesn't look old now because I had them polished, I also had an old moro weapon plaque with same type of nails use. You can also search thru this forums archive you will see a few scabbards with the same features. The only unusual thing probably added was the braided rattan wraps and the red cloth.

Kai, you're right, there might had been a second clamp. I was planning to add two clamps but I still remember how costly this things are. The last two clamps I had custom made cost me half a grand.


Thanks for the compliment Sajen.

[Sajen]

The scabbard and the handle came together with a broken blade, luckily the clamp fits perfectly, so its just basically transferring the hardware to the new blade, with some grinding to the mouth of the scabbard. I got this at an antique store in Yuma, Arizona.

Hello Chris,

great luck! Agree with Ian that the scabbard look much younger as the handle, do you have reworked it?

Regards,
Detlef

[CCUAL]

Hello Sajen, the scabbard and handle came together and are original it just look new now because I shaved off the patina by polished the wood and nails. I added the cloth and the rattan wrap later. Thanks for the comments and compliments. Cheers

[CCUAL]

Can someone tell me which moro tribe this belongs to? based on the sheath and handle. thanks

[Battara]

I have seen this before. According to the silver mounts, baka-baka, front "mouth" of the ganga, etc, I would place this as Maguindanao. I will admit the wranga does look a little Sulu.

Do you now own this?

And great work on the other kris - really brought out the pattern! :)

[CCUAL]

[QUOTE=Battara]I have seen this before. According to the silver mounts, baka-baka, front "mouth" of the ganga, etc, I would place this as Maguindanao. I will admit the wranga does look a little Sulu.

Do you now own this?



Yes, I pick this up from ebay early this year. Thanks btw for clarifying the origin of this kris.

[CCUAL]

Chris: Two great looking twist-cores. You did really good. I think both would go late 1800s to very early 1900s. Can't do much better than that. Haven't seen you since the Pasadena Knife Show. That was more than a few years ago................Dave.



Hey Dave, long time no see. I was going to see you guys at the Militaria antique show in Pomona at one time but I missed the opportunity. Hopefully this year I can drop by at the Pasadena knife show. Pls. bring your twistcore krises. ;o) Send my regards to Lonna.

[David]

What is the material of the pommel on this one. The photos aren't very good, but it looks like fossilized elephant molar. Can we see some better shots of it?

[CCUAL]

What is the material of the pommel on this one. The photos aren't very good, but it looks like fossilized elephant molar. Can we see some better shots of it?


Hi David, according to the restoration person that did the sealing as the pommel material was falling apart when I rec'd it, it is made from carved elephant tooth. I will take close up photos when I get home.

[Ian]

Can someone tell me which moro tribe this belongs to? based on the sheath and handle. thanksAccording to Cato, the sheath is Mindanao in origin, possibly Maranao. The hilt is harder to classify with its jute wrapping flanked by two encircling silver (?) sheet bands. There appears to be crenelation along the edge of the top band, a feature often found on Maranao hilts but by no means unique to that tribal group. The elephant tooth small kakatua pommel is unusual and not a characteristic finding for any of the major Moro groups.

Ian

[Ian]

Rarely do I disagree with Jose, but on this occasion I think he is mistaken in his attribution of the blade to the Maguindanao, at least if we are to believe Cato's classification.

Attached is a scan of Cato's Figure 39-42,* which I have labeled A,B,C,D: A = Sulu kris; B = Maranao; C = Maguindanao; and D = a "crossover" form. A picture of your kris (attached) shows the "elephant trunk" area is most consistent with the Maranao example (B) shown by Cato.

To quote Cato (p. 68):The type that is distinctly Maranao begins with an elongated trunk . [i]The mouth cavity, while still present, is quite narrow, and the lower jaw runs parallel to the guard. While the Sulu, Maguindanao and "crossover" forms of the elephant's head/trunk motif display concave cavities beneath the lower jaw, the Maranao configuration does not.
Ian.


*Cato, R. Moro Swords. Graham Brash: Singapore, 1996, pp. 68-69.

[Battara]

Actually I was referring to the "tooth kris", the one with the fossil molar ivory.

On the one you are referencing, Ian, I agree.

[Ian]

Actually I was referring to the "tooth kris", the one with the fossil molar ivory.

On the one you are referencing, Ian, I agree.My apologies Jose. I thought you referred to the other one.

[Battara]

My apologies Jose. I thought you referred to the other one.
Oh no problem Ian. I like to learn.

You know, once I thought I made an error, but I found out that I was mistaken... :D

[DaveS]

Chris: Sorry, but we don't do Pasadena anymore, since they cut the show from three days to two. To much work for just two days. But we still do the Pomona Militaria Show in May. Hope to see you there...........Dave.

[CCUAL]

Chris: Sorry, but we don't do Pasadena anymore, since they cut the show from three days to two. To much work for just two days. But we still do the Pomona Militaria Show in May. Hope to see you there...........Dave.

I will see you guys in Pomona this May then....Chris

[mross]

Good eye, I think catches like this are the most fun.

[CCUAL]

Good eye, I think catches like this are the most fun.


You're very right, Mross. Ebay is still a good source from time to time, I caught 3 very nice twistcore krises this year alone, 2 were under hundred bucks, way below the of bidding war radar.

[David]

You're very right, Mross. Ebay is still a good source from time to time, I caught 3 very nice twistcore krises this year alone, 2 were under hundred bucks, way below the of bidding war radar.
I agree Chris, there are still sleepers to be found if you have a combination of a good eye and a good deal of luck. :)

[CCUAL]

I agree Chris, there are still sleepers to be found if you have a combination of a good eye and a good deal of luck. :)


True David. When ever I have time and free from any thing that is when I do my scouting. I take my time searching from item to item, each category that's link to what I am searching for. Two of the krises that I found this year were misspelled and it was buried in no where, I was surprised when I found it, I crossed finger a bit hoping that no one will fight me against it, and sure enough. none

I also take my time looking deep into those thick rusted photos, looking for signs, very rewarding at the end..

[CCUAL]

Here's one of the twistcore krises that I got from ebay this year. It has a very robust blade. If you look at the last photo carefully, evidence of vein like pattern seen on twistcore blades. Re-sized photos from seller.

[CCUAL]

Hello DaveS, Do you still have this twistcore kampilan that I gave you as present from Pasadena Knife show some odd years ago? That's was my first twistcore puchase, some give away price. Seller asked me, what did you see in it? told him the handle! hahaha.


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13243&highlight=kampilan

[DaveS]

Chris: Yes i do. When you said campilon i couldn't remember which one until i looked at your link. I also found out that a full-sized camp that i bought from Lee Berg, and which has a very rare handle style also seems to have a strange type of "twist". There is some dark staining that needs to be cleaned up before i can really tell, but i think it is some kind of twist. It has been up on our backboard for a good number of years and i just didn't take a really close look until a year or so ago. Iv'e been thinking about taking it down and working on it, just have to work up the ambition i guess.........Dave.

[CCUAL]

Very nice kris.

The materials used for the scabbard are non-traditional in a number of ways, with the use of large headed nails and a rattan wrap that I have trouble placing.

Ian.

large nails were original, i just had to polish them.., i think i can find another kris scabbard with the same wrap here somewhere.

[CCUAL]

moro trad wrap.

[Battara]

THe top picture is from Ashokaarts and is a kris from Tawi-Tawi