VOC BLADES: A comprehensive look

[Jim McDougall]

Presently we are discussing the Sinhalese kastane on a concurrent thread and one of the features which seems to arise on many examples are the blades marked VOC (Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie) and prominently marked year dates such as 1775; 1757; 1768 etc.

It seems these Dutch East India company blades not only occur with some consistency on the kastanes, but throughout the Indonesian and Malaysian archipelagos on various types of indigenous swords and edged weapons.

Many of the VOC blades have Amsterdam town marks but of course the other key VOC ports may have been represented as well.

I would like to look further into the diffusion of these blades, which appear to be specifically issued for trade, and hope those out there with examples or knowledge on these blades might come together here and share in discussion.

It seems these blades are invariably 18th century from around 1740s to 1770s, though some earlier examples with 1606 or 1660 seem to be talismanically used numbers or commemorative dates perhaps.

[Sajen]

Hello Jim,

good idea! :) I have seen some Timor swords with dutch klewang blades and own one byself, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10127&highlight=timor I will post some new pictures soon as possible and I am sure that members will own also swords like this. Will be nice to see others.

Regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

Good idea to give this a good research.
Once I tried to research these VOC blades, but till now I didn't find anything what was usefull enough to start with. Also the pieces I've found, didn't had the right provenance to take the VOC marks serious.

But one thing I know. Blades with VOC on it will sell a lot better against a much higher price. So you can imagine that this had been stamped later on many blades to get it more interesting!

I hope somebody has good information for us, but hopefully not guesses, but marks supported with any kind of interesting provenance.

Allready a friendcollector and I tried to get more information in a Dutch museumlibrary, to find anything about these kind of stamps.
However we didn't succeed than, and after that we didn't had time to pick this up again.

Thanks for opening this interesting thread Jim!
Hopefully we can find something interesting...

Maurice

[asomotif]

Interesting subject.

It would help if the forum's search machine would support a search for "VOC Blade"

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the support guys!!! All of you are in key position to learn more on these blades, and asomotif has noted, hopefully this thread will archive the topic of the VOC blades for future researches as well.
The goal here is to review more on these blades both as occurring on issued or regulation swords and cutlasses as well as how they diffused into the various colonial trade spheres.
Detlef, looking forward to photos!
Maurice great points on the faking of these kinds of marks, and your efforts to find more in that library are much appreciated, we always keep at it! so often more can be found at later attempts.

All the best,
JIm

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you so much for the support guys!!! All of you are in key position to learn more on these blades, and asomotif has noted, hopefully this thread will archive the topic of the VOC blades for future researches as well.
The goal here is to review more on these blades both as occurring on issued or regulation swords and cutlasses as well as how they diffused into the various colonial trade spheres.
Detlef, looking forward to photos!
Maurice great points on the faking of these kinds of marks, and your efforts to find more in that library are much appreciated, we always keep at it! so often more can be found at later attempts.

All the best,
JIm

Salaams Jim, I was amazed that EIC simply did not stamp sword blades but did so on gunpowder weapons and bayonets.. For the latter see http://www.armsregister.com/articles/articles_documents/nzar_a40_socket_bayonets_for_11_bore_musket.pdf
The Dutch, as you state did... and many examples exist on web and forum.

I have not found any Kastane with Portuguese stamps... and reason that there were none because of the nature of the weapon which was a purebred native blade at the time of the Portuguese influx.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Maurice]

The Dutch, as you state did... and many examples exist on web and forum.


Yes many examples around. But which ones are fake, and which ones are real? Are there real VOC stamps on blades?
I need to see that on provenanced pieces, not on the examples which I can find on the internet.

If you have some with provenance, can you post pictures here?
I will if I find any...

Regards,
Maurice

[Sajen]

Here some new pictures of my Timor sword. There is a marking "Hembrug" on the blade. I have acquired this sword some years ago via ebay, see the link in up. When I get this sword the marking was covered by rust, so I think it's an original marking. But sadly nothing else is known about it's provenance but I don't have doubts about it's originality.

[Sajen]

Just get the information from a member that a Hembrug blade isn't a VOC blade, so my sword don't add any information to this thread. VOC blades are much older as this Hembrug blade. Sorry for any confusion! :rolleyes:

[asomotif]

A few years ago I read a book "De jacht op sandelhout" by Arend de Roever (2002).
It describes how the VOC forced themselves into the Sandalwood trade from Timor. The VOC was present on Timor from 1613 till 1799.
The trade was a complex system of all kinds of raw materials and semi finished products that where traded by the VOC between Europe, Indonesia, but also China, Japan, India.

Sandalwood was brought from Timor to China and India and Bali.
It describes also that sword blades where placed in the ships sailing from Europe as trade material and also serving as ballast.

Interestingly, a lot of weapons that I recall with VOC blades are timor swords. Sorry Maurice, This is getting close to speculation. ;)

Best regards,
Willem

[Maurice]

Just get the information from a member that a Hembrug blade isn't a VOC blade, so my sword don't add any information to this thread. VOC blades are much older as this Hembrug blade. Sorry for any confusion! :rolleyes:
It's good bringing this one up Detlef.
It seemed that trade blades were used also in the latter period (after the
VOC time).

Kind regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

A few years ago I read a book "De jacht op sandelhout" by Arend de Roever (2002).
It describes how the VOC forced themselves into the Sandalwood trade from Timor. The VOC was present on Timor from 1613 till 1799.
The trade was a complex system of all kinds of raw materials and semi finished products that where traded by the VOC between Europe, Indonesia, but also China, Japan, India.

Sandalwood was brought from Timor to China and India and Bali.
It describes also that sword blades where placed in the ships sailing from Europe as trade material and also serving as ballast.

Interestingly, a lot of weapons that I recall with VOC blades are timor swords. Sorry Maurice, This is getting close to speculation. ;)

Best regards,
WillemThank you Willem for bringing it up.

Indeed very strange that most of the VOC blades are timor swords.
I don't know about Timor a lot, did they had own blacksmiths? If not that could be a reason for finding there so many trade blades.

However I have also seen VOC blades on old Preanger swords. Gavin had one nice gobang for sale with dated VOC blade recently.
Also I've seen a dated VOC blade on a Bandjermasin keris, and on a lanceblade from Borneo, which is in the Bronbeek museum now.

However all had not the right provenance to prove these really were old tradingblades from the VOC.

Maurice

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

Indeed very strange that most of the VOC blades are timor swords.
I don't know about Timor a lot, did they had own blacksmiths? If not that could be a reason for finding there so many trade blades.
This and the heavy VOC involvement makes it likely to find quite some of these there; I do seem to remember also examples from the greater Timor region (which may have been diffusing out of Timor proper).


However I have also seen VOC blades on old Preanger swords. Gavin had one nice gobang for sale with dated VOC blade recently.
Also I've seen a dated VOC blade on a Bandjermasin keris, and on a lanceblade from Borneo, which is in the Bronbeek museum now.
I believe these are quite widespread: I've seen several out of Sumatra and also central Java.


However all had not the right provenance to prove these really were old tradingblades from the VOC.
I am not sure what kind of provenance would be needed for an ethnographic combo to prove the point? Even when registered into any European nobility collection during the VOC period, this still could be a local "fake" of a possibly respected quality mark.

I know that real VOC swords are a kind of holy grail of Dutch/international military sword collectors and there certainly are a lot of fakes on the market.

However, ethnographic pieces don't enter those collecting circles AFAIK and among ethnographic collectors the VOC mark may be an interesting addition but it won't influence the usually moderate prices in such a way that convincing fakes would be economically lucrative. These are old and worn blades which doesn't make studying marks really easy. However, these are also not easy to apply fake stamps in recent times. It's not that we're looking at some sh***r c**l repros... ;) Sorry, Jim, couldn't resist! :D

In most cases, experienced collectors are quite good at differentiating locally crafted blades (usually preferred) from European steel or trade blades. I'd suggest to compile all VOC-marked blades: Any VOC marks on blades apparently made from imported steel (including genuine VOC trade blades) should be carefully analyzed; very valuable would be marks from genuine VOC swords - there must be a few in Dutch musea? If we were to come across VOC marks on obviously locally crafted blades, these would make a good comparision, too! This may be a bit like reverse engineering - let's give it a try though!

Will try to load up some examples in the following days if time permits.

Regards,
Kai

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Maurice,


This and the heavy VOC involvement makes it likely to find quite some of these there; I do seem to remember also examples from the greater Timor region (which may have been diffusing out of Timor proper).



I believe these are quite widespread: I've seen several out of Sumatra and also central Java.



I am not sure what kind of provenance would be needed for an ethnographic combo to prove the point? Even when registered into any European nobility collection during the VOC period, this still could be a local "fake" of a possibly respected quality mark.

I know that real VOC swords are a kind of holy grail of Dutch/international military sword collectors and there certainly are a lot of fakes on the market.

However, ethnographic pieces don't enter those collecting circles AFAIK and among ethnographic collectors the VOC mark may be an interesting addition but it won't influence the usually moderate prices in such a way that convincing fakes would be economically lucrative. These are old and worn blades which doesn't make studying marks really easy. However, these are also not easy to apply fake stamps in recent times. It's not that we're looking at some sh***r c**l repros... ;) Sorry, Jim, couldn't resist! :D

In most cases, experienced collectors are quite good at differentiating locally crafted blades (usually preferred) from European steel or trade blades. I'd suggest to compile all VOC-marked blades: Any VOC marks on blades apparently made from imported steel (including genuine VOC trade blades) should be carefully analyzed; very valuable would be marks from genuine VOC swords - there must be a few in Dutch musea? If we were to come across VOC marks on obviously locally crafted blades, these would make a good comparision, too! This may be a bit like reverse engineering - let's give it a try though!

Will try to load up some examples in the following days if time permits.

Regards,
Kai

Salaams Kai ... I must say yours is Excellent input ! I was just viewing some data on a sold auction Kastane but no photo ... the write up is interesting...
from Christies LondonQuote"Lot Description A DUTCH EAST INDIA COMPANY SWORD, dated 1757, with Ceylonese hilt, comprising a curved, single-edged blade stamped on both faces with the mark of the Amsterdam office of the V.O.C. and the year 1757; hilt of a Ceylonese kastane sword, comprising a carved wooden grip with lion's head pommed, metal ferrule decorated with foliage, and a brass knuckleguard (quillon A/F)
84.5cm. long

Lot Notes; In areas formely controlled by the Dutch VOC, many of its sword blades were traded and mounted with indigenous hilts by the native people, and sometimes worn until the 20th Century Lot Description A DUTCH EAST INDIA COMPANY SWORD, dated 1757, with Ceylonese hilt, comprising a curved, single-edged blade stamped on both faces with the mark of the Amsterdam office of the V.O.C. and the year 1757; hilt of a Ceylonese kastane sword, comprising a carved wooden grip with lion's head pommed, metal ferrule decorated with foliage, and a brass knuckleguard". Unquote.

In the sword above, the VOC mark would have been accompanied by the A mark denoting Amsterdam...and interestingly the write up mentions the traded function of goods in Sri Lanka at that time... They didn't have a useable monetary system but bartered for everything... The only people who had money... were the Chieftains/ Royalty (but not exclusively) who actually hoarded coin...Some traders and especially the Moors did actually use money but the general effect of the mass of the population using bartering and the tendency of hoarding coin by VIP's had the effect of fossilising the money supply..This underpins the Caste system in which no monetary system was needed... craftsmen didn't get wages...and the Territorial Army for example had duty to serve the ruler in times of strife sewn into their agreement to work on the land...and again for which goods could be exchanged ... not money; The main bartering instrument being grain. See http://www.cmb.ac.lk/administration/acpb/files/2012/11/Ralph_Pieris.pdf

It is of further interest that neither the Portuguese nor the English stamped blades (except stamped bayonets by EIC) but the Dutch did stamp sword blades using the capital first letter of the factory or warehouse where the stamp was done ...e.g. Amsterdam, Rotterdam etc...and that ceramics were used as trade items for swapping/bartering for the important spices of the region in particular Cinnamon/spices..particularly by the Dutch.

For interest see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=109394

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug: VOC Warehouse in Amsterdam.

[Andrew]

Shaver Kool (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html) :cool:

[Jim McDougall]

Shaver Kool (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html) :cool:


OH NO!!!!!!

[Maurice]

Hello Kai,

I understand what's your point here, and I agree about that!

I believe these are quite widespread: I've seen several out of Sumatra and also central Java.
They are certainly widespread, but most of the time it is a select kind of swords which have those VOC blades. Like the Timor swords, or the Preanger gobangs (Central Javanese), or the Bandjermasin area.



I am not sure what kind of provenance would be needed for an ethnographic combo to prove the point? Even when registered into any European nobility collection during the VOC period, this still could be a local "fake" of a possibly respected quality mark.
If it was local, I think it would have been done another way. They would not use these kind of stamps to mark the blades, but it would be a more elegently and smoothly writing/decoration in the blade.


I know that real VOC swords are a kind of holy grail of Dutch/international military sword collectors and there certainly are a lot of fakes on the market.
Yes, I hope to have one in future myself. But first want to do more research.



very valuable would be marks from genuine VOC swords - there must be a few in Dutch musea? If we were to come across VOC marks on obviously locally crafted blades, these would make a good comparision, too! This may be a bit like reverse engineering - let's give it a try though!
I will try finding some genuine VOC swords. But the ones I've seen in Dutch museums didn't had the VOC mark. Though I've seen one in the former Legermuseum in Delft, but don't know anymore what the provenance of that sword was.

Will try to load up some examples in the following days if time permits.
OK let's make this a project of us all! Add images, even without provenance, to discuss and compare, for the moment we will find a good provenanced old genuine one.

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Presently we are discussing the Sinhalese kastane on a concurrent thread and one of the features which seems to arise on many examples are the blades marked VOC (Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie) and prominently marked year dates such as 1775; 1757; 1768 etc.

Hello Jim. Maybe it's nice to have a look at the following image, which had been drawned by Jan Brandes in 1785.
It's a scene around a show piece with the VOC emblem.
To the left we see the Singalese/Ceylonese VOC militaries and minders/guards,
to the right the kings envoys of Kandy with a letter of the king.

Regards,
Maurice

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Jim. Maybe it's nice to have a look at the following image, which had been drawned by Jan Brandes in 1785.
It's a scene around a show piece with the VOC emblem.
To the left we see the Singalese/Ceylonese VOC militaries and minders/guards,
to the right the kings envoys of Kandy with a letter of the king.

Regards,
Maurice

Salaams Maurice, A quick note from my perspective as this is an important picture showing a group of Mudalyars and what looks like a personal guard on the right with Kastane drawn in salute and with the envoy carrying the letter...... the other members of the entourage being fan carriers and servants possibly to the head Mudalyer who has shoes! Those with a sash are depicted in their Kastane hanging to the left side .. Various others are guards variously with guns and spears.

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...
Interesting to note that the method of paying for spices by the VOC was often by ceramics barter(obtained from China and for many years exclusively by the Dutch from Japan). The items were stamped VOC as below. The map shows that to get to the Indian Ocean, Dutch Ships steered virtually to the Americas and essentially hung a sharp left letting the trade winds do the work..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Maurice]

Salaams Maurice, A quick note from my perspective as this is an important picture showing a group of Mudalyars and what looks like a personal guard on the right with Kastane drawn in salute and with the envoy carrying the letter...... the other members of the entourage being fan carriers and servants possibly to the head Mudalyer who has shoes! Those with a sash are depicted in their Kastane hanging to the left side .. Various others are guards variously with guns and spears.

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your input. But I have to debunk your perspective according the people standing in the left.
The text I've added about the drawing had been written by the drawer himself, Jan Brandes in a book.
The ones in the left are definately the Singalese employed by the VOC. I've seen those kind of blue clothing also on other images from Jan Brandes.
These style of jackets (if that's the right name) are a bit like the Dutch VOC people carried.

About the people on the right side you're correct, as I also have been written before.
PS.: I don't have any knowledge about them nor kastanes etc. I just transferred the text from the guy who had made the drawing almost 250 years ago. :shrug: :)

Probably the people in the other kastane thread you're referring to, are still using the fashion of the blue VOC jackets hundreds of years ago?

Regards,
Maurice

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your input. But I have to debunk your perspective according the people standing in the left.
The text I've added about the drawing had been written by the drawer himself, Jan Brandes in a book.
The ones in the left are definately the Singalese employed by the VOC. I've seen those kind of blue clothing also on other images from Jan Brandes.
These style of jackets (if that's the right name) are a bit like the Dutch VOC people carried.

About the people on the right side you're correct, as I also have been written before.
PS.: I don't have any knowledge about them nor kastanes etc. I just transferred the text from the guy who had made the drawing almost 250 years ago. :shrug: :)

Probably the people in the other kastane thread you're referring to, are still using the fashion of the blue VOC jackets hundreds of years ago?

Regards,
Maurice


Salaams Maurice Its a great drawing but... The chaps to the left are wearing sash and sword..Kastane. They are Mudalyars. They are the middle aristocracy and officers of the beaurocracy ... head civil servants/officers... through whom the Dutch did their bidding. I think however that we are speaking the same language since they were Sri Lankan and working essentially for the Dutch... and a few years after no doubt for the English. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Maurice]

Salaams Maurice Its a great drawing but... The chaps to the left are wearing sash and sword..Kastane. They are Mudalyars. They are the middle aristocracy and officers of the beaurocracy ... head civil servants/officers... through whom the Dutch did their bidding. I think however that we are speaking the same language since they were Sri Lankan and working essentially for the Dutch... and a few years after no doubt for the English. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

OK thank you for noticing. I really didn't know they were, all I could get from the text was that they were natives, but employed by the VOC.

I'll post more on the subject later..

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Before we are looking and discussing at the VOC stamps on swordblades, it might be usefull to look on what other items these marks are found.

I've added some images: A VOC latern, dated between 1700-1800; A longgun with the VOC stamp of Amsterdam, dated between 1725-1798; A pistol, dated around 1780, with stamp VOC IH or HI; A VOC canon, stamped VOC A, dated 1667; A lawchair used in Ambon in 1709, with VOC A stamp and date 1709; on VOC coins; Chest with VOC and date 1728 at the back; On boxes, like we can see at the drawing ca. 1770 of a Chinese trading store; On little boxes as seen on a drawing of a cabin on a VOC ship, dated 1785-1786.

PS.: all are from a Dutch museum, and not from some kind of private collections!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Ibrahiim,

OK thank you for noticing. I really didn't know they were, all I could get from the text was that they were natives, but employed by the VOC.

I'll post more on the subject later..

Regards,
Maurice


Salaams Maurice.. Great pictures like yours are a pleasure to see on thread.. and underpins an awful lot of research and interest... thank you. I note several points which you will probably be aware of ... The wonderful Dutch Chest which we see several similar in Oman...and the box containers marked VOC with A over the top meaning Amsterdam. The odd dish hanging on the doctors ships cabin wall being for shaving thus the shape and oriental floral design from the Dutch Chinese or Japanese connnections.... Batavia meaning the present day Jakarta marked on the coinage.

The early example of a lion with sword carved into the chair is "interesting."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Maurice and Ibrahiim, thank you guys so much for all these images and the excellent context they bring into the discussion! and Kai, Willem and Sajen than you for the outstanding support here. Indeed this is an exciting topic which can give us all a better understanding of the diffusion of these blades through these regions and the history that surrounded them! Great discussion!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Maurice]

The early example of a lion with sword carved into the chair is "interesting."


The Dutch Lion is a symbol of heraldry.
Allready in the earliest heraldry works we find lions, symbol of strength, on weapon shields.

Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

The Dutch Lion is a symbol of heraldry.
Allready in the earliest heraldry works we find lions, symbol of strength, on weapon shields.

Maurice

Good point Maurice, and important to note here that representation of animals in a totemic sense extends to prehistoric times, and often individuals and later clans adopted the image of various creatures as their own symbolically . Totemic symbolism was well known in many cultures and the use of these symbols in a heraldic sense was used by many nomadic tribes such as the Scythians, and of course the Celts, Vikings and others used such imagery in the same manner.

Medieval heraldry used mythical beasts in the same manner in Europe as the mythical creatures used in many ethnographic cultures.

One of the fascinating features of the kasthane, in fact probably the key element, is the identification of the creatures represented on its hilt, and compelling parallels with various European hilts.

[Amuk Murugul]

Presently we are discussing the Sinhalese kastane on a concurrent thread and one of the features which seems to arise on many examples are the blades marked VOC (Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie) and prominently marked year dates such as 1775; 1757; 1768 etc.

It seems these Dutch East India company blades not only occur with some consistency on the kastanes, but throughout the Indonesian and Malaysian archipelagos on various types of indigenous swords and edged weapons.

Many of the VOC blades have Amsterdam town marks but of course the other key VOC ports may have been represented as well.

I would like to look further into the diffusion of these blades, which appear to be specifically issued for trade, and hope those out there with examples or knowledge on these blades might come together here and share in discussion.

It seems these blades are invariably 18th century from around 1740s to 1770s, though some earlier examples with 1606 or 1660 seem to be talismanically used numbers or commemorative dates perhaps.

Hullo everybody! :)

Has anybody considered that during the latter part of the 18thC:
The proliferation of VOC-stamped blades throughout the Archipelago, especially towards the more eastern parts may be tied in with:
- The British were consolidating their interests in the Archipelago, mainly in the Straits and Soematera/Riaoe. Thus putting pressure on VOC trade.
- VOC (by this time often referred to as Vergaan Onder Corruptie) was in decline and facing bankruptcy. The blades were a sure source of revenue, as they were easier to procure by the locals than locally-made ones.

As for the the various city stamps, I either own or have seen blades with the initials for Amsterdam, Hoorn, Rotterdam and Middelburg. That leaves only Enkhuizen and Delft

Best,

[David]

Medieval heraldry used mythical beasts in the same manner in Europe as the mythical creatures used in many ethnographic cultures.
Just as a point of interest Jim, ethnographic studies are not limited to non-European cultures. Any culture can be studied in this manner. :)

[Jim McDougall]

Just as a point of interest Jim, ethnographic studies are not limited to non-European cultures. Any culture can be studied in this manner. :)

Well observed David, thank you.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hullo everybody! :)

Has anybody considered that during the latter part of the 18thC:
The proliferation of VOC-stamped blades throughout the Archipelago, especially towards the more eastern parts may be tied in with:
- The British were consolidating their interests in the Archipelago, mainly in the Straits and Soematera/Riaoe. Thus putting pressure on VOC trade.
- VOC (by this time often referred to as Vergaan Onder Corruptie) was in decline and facing bankruptcy. The blades were a sure source of revenue, as they were easier to procure by the locals than locally-made ones.

As for the the various city stamps, I either own or have seen blades with the initials for Amsterdam, Hoorn, Rotterdam and Middelburg. That leaves only Enkhuizen and Delft

Best,

Salaams Amuk Murugul ~ The net effect upon Sri Lankan home grown blades during the Dutch and English periods may have been disastrous as outlined (and with a very impressive bibliography) by Rose Solangaarachchi Postgraduate Institute of Archaeology University of Kelaniya at ~

http://thakshana.nsf.ac.lk/pdf/VIDURAWA/VIDU_19_1/VIDU%2019_1_30.pdf

Quote"In ancient times the caste system was mainly occupational based. As a result technology was preserved by being handed down from generation to generation.The caste system was developed to maintain the socio economic systems of the day.The social system changed with the advent of foreign rule and as a result the traditional technological know how was lost under colonialism.

Another reason for the decline was the cheap import of iron and steel implements imported from Europe and the inability of the indigenous iron producers to adopt new advances in technology".Unquote.

For other linkages in the story see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[A. G. Maisey]

This badik came into Australia pre-1914, bought in Batavia.

I have only ever seen one bladed weapon with similar markings.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

This badik came into Australia pre-1914, bought in Batavia.
Thanks for the pics!

It's been heavily stained as expected for Jawa blades while the remaining fullering/etc. seem to point to a recycled European blade. How would you judge the metal? Can you exclude the possibility of this blade having been crafted by a pande Jawa? (Seems unlikely to me to be a Jawa-made look-a-like - just trying to take advantage of your experience and you having this piece at your hands...)


I have only ever seen one bladed weapon with similar markings.
What kind of Indo piece was this other one?

These VOC-marked blades are slightly more common than that - will try to post pics of some more examples ASAP.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

I'd prefer not to indulge in speculation Kai. I really only like to comment if I have some sort of evidence to form an opinion on, and all I have with this piece is the certain knowledge of when it entered Australia.

It looks old, but the technology used by smiths in old Europe and smiths in old Jawa was pretty much the same, so there is really nothing I can base an opinion on.

As for how common this sort of thing may be, I can only state my own experience, and I've only ever seen one other blade with a similar stamp. I'm uncertain where, but it was probably one of the museums in Central Jawa, most likely in Solo. I cannot remember what this other piece was, but it was very likely to have been a sword of some kind.

Sorry I cannot be more informative.

[Jim McDougall]

Alan, I am so delighted to have your input here, and of course I recognize the cautions you exercise in speculations as professionalism has always been your hallmark. The example you have shared is most interesting, and I wondered the same thing as Kai, whether this blade was produced in Jawa, or indeed a cut down blade from Dutch VOC hanger. The metal, to my untrained eye, had the coarse look of many of the pedang etc. (please pardon my inept description:) but then, as far as I have known, if native made why would it have a fuller? Further, why would the maker have placed spurious VOC marks on it? It seems to me that in these regions, there was not the same emphasis on European 'quality' in blades that was so pertinent in so many other native cultures in colonial settings .


Several days ago I began retracing old notes and material on VOC blades and found considerable examples listed, and was surprised at some of the almost nuanced variations in some of the contexts found. It seems that my earlier speculation that perhaps these dated VOC blades were Dutch products specifically intended for export to these colonies was entirely implausible. Apparantly the VOC blades were produced for purchase and use by the forces of the VOC, which were largely foreign and their kit was of course their own responsibility. These were not 'regulation issues' and the types of blades of ranging form and produced over a period far beyond the mid 18th century as I presumed.

It would seem that most of these VOC blades were produced in Solingen for the Dutch, and from what I understand it appears many were of cutlass and hanger type for the shellguard, alternating quillon swords typically used by Dutch sailors from mid 17th century through the 18th. With this being the case, as with most Solingen or contracted instances, this may account for some of the curious variations as applied in various workshops.

For example, in some cases the kamer (chamber) letter is below the VOC device rather than above, as typically seen. In one example of a Dutch hanger the VOC has the Amsterdam (most commonly seen) but the majuscule 'A' has a 'v' type drop down center bar rather than the usual straight. This corresponds of course to other German markings using this style 'A' though usually earlier, the date with VOC is 1742.
There appear to be cutlass/hanger examples dated as early as 1685, but I feel there must be many earlier.

On many examples the date is encapsulated by crosses, 'x's or of course the quad configured dots or lozenges previously mentioned as seen on the 'dump' and 'stuiver' coins issued for the VOC. These kind of four figure patterns are of course often seen on blades produced in Germany used in the same accompanying manner, and may be presumed to represent the cross in my opinion . This same kind of representation may be the purpose of the four petal flower or clover (kleeblatt) found almost invariably on 17th century 'walloon' swords on the quillon disc.

The six kamer (chambers) of the VOC were Amsterdam (seeming primary); Delft; Rotterdam; Enkhuizen; Middelburg and Hoorn.

Other examples with dates on various archipelago weapons in the Dutch colonial complex were pedang VOC 1788 (Hoorn); weapon from Cental Timor VOC 1774 (Amsterdam) blade sharply rebated at tip; pedang 1759 VOC (Hoorn); pedang Seenda VOC 1773, (Amsterdam); another unidentified VOC (Amsterdam) 1685.

It seems that the VOC configuration found later in 18th century on cavalry style arming swords with VOC and 'A' had become almost lozenge shaped with the two aligned contiguously. The date read across the blade horizontally and under the device rather than in line with the blade as commonly known. The date 1787 is seen on an excavated example of one of these as is one surrendered by Dutch to British in South Africa 1795 and mounted in Scottish basket hilt .
Curiously, another Dutch hanger VOC 1794 has the same linear alignment which seems standard on all others so the arming blades seem to have been an anomaly.

I hope that this material taken from the corpus of notes I 'excavated' :) will be helpful as we move forward examining the diffusion and sources of these blades .

I would note here that it seems that the date 1768 is one that has been recurring, at least in my recollection. While not yet clear, it seems that there was war between Ceylon and the Dutch in that year but cannot recall which events were in place. I wondered if perhaps those circumstances may have produced a larger volume of swords which became either captured or surplus?

Best regards,
Jim

[erikscollectables]

Some time ago I was trying to write an article about podang variations and also came across a few Batak pieces with VOC blades. I will try to retrace pictures of those.

My working hypothesis for that article was - based on the examples I had seen was that the VOC mark had "status" for the Batak hence that local made blades bore the VOC markings without any reference of them being used by the Dutch.

Supporting hypotheses were:
-Locally made blades with the VOC mark exist
-The VOC mark was not added for tourists
-The VOC mark has added value for the user

I found some examples that would fit the descriptions but nothing substantial unfortunately.

Here some pictures from a 1903 auction that included a Batak podang with a VOC blade.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o288/erikscollectables/schulman1_zps4afbf504.png (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/erikscollectables/media/schulman1_zps4afbf504.png.html)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o288/erikscollectables/schulman2_zps44523f32.png (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/erikscollectables/media/schulman2_zps44523f32.png.html)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o288/erikscollectables/schulman3_zpsbfd42b0c.png (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/erikscollectables/media/schulman3_zpsbfd42b0c.png.html)

[erikscollectables]

This example had VOC marking - unfortunately no close up.
I have used the same pic twice - two is a rotated detail of the first one
Certainly was not the A(msterdam) but I think H(oorn)
Date looks like 1763 but I am not sure and I don't have the blade anymore.

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o288/erikscollectables/IMG_0173_zpsbb7024bf.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/erikscollectables/media/IMG_0173_zpsbb7024bf.jpg.html)

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o288/erikscollectables/IMG_0173_zpseaf3e075.jpg (http://s123.photobucket.com/user/erikscollectables/media/IMG_0173_zpseaf3e075.jpg.html)

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you very much Erik, and it sounds like you were well on the way to a most promising article. With what you are saying, and I would defer to your knowledge on these weapons as these are far out of my field of study, it sounds like my thoughts on native perceptions of VOC blades are quite incorrect.

I think one of the reasons I had presumed that in Indonesian regions there would not have been the status or perception of desirability necessarily for the VOC blades is that I had thought that native made blades were far more regarded. I am unclear on whether the blades on weapons other than the keris had similar spiritual or talismanic properties, so that was part of my thought.

Also, I was not aware that native made versions of blades bearing copies of the VOC marks existed, and naturally that would well substantiate the case for these blades being considered of status if it were proven. it sounds as if the proof needed was not yet found, but I hope the research continues .

I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons...are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others?
If VOC blades were indeed considered of high status for whatever reason, could such blades, although foreign, be imbued with any such properties through ritual or ceremonial means?

I hope that these questions regarding these weapons will be met patiently with those here who are involved with their collection and study. As I have noted I am far out of my field here and my questions are meant to better understand the circumstances concerning these weapons.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jim, insofar as Jawa & Bali are concerned, any weapon, indeed any object, including cooking pots, stirrups, buckles, walking sticks and a vast array of other objects, including farmland, can be regarded as "pusaka" and be considered to hold some of the properties of a keris that come from being pusaka. Such associated properties would include elements of ancestor worship and as status markers.

However, only the keris as pusaka possesses the special properties of cosmic symbolism and unification. Only the keris is a required part of formal dress.

I do not doubt for one moment that indigenous smiths in the old Indies made VOC marked blades, both for use by VOC personnel, and in some cases to provide additional talismanic content in the form of the VOC symbol. Indigenous Maritime South East Asian belief systems tend to be inclusive, rather than exclusive, so if a new source of power came upon the scene it was thought to be a good idea to include the symbolism of the new power along with the existing symbolism. This line of thought was particularly so in Jawa. For that matter, it still applies in Jawa with a segment of the population.

[David]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons…are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others? [/QUOTE]
I would say yes Jim. The cultural relationship might not be exactly the same as the keris, but Tosan Aji as a sacred heirloom weapon extends to many different kinds of blades in the region.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Alan for that perfectly detailed explanation and that is important to know in evaluating the presence of VOC blades in various weapons throughout these regions. Actually that does make good sense in noting that the VOC symbol may well have been added to existing elements in their beliefs and symbolism.
I had forgotten that in many cases symbols and markings from outside sources, such as trade blades into colonial settings in India, North Africa etc. were indeed adopted into native perceptions and seen as talismanic and or imbuements of power and quality.
The great part of these kinds of discussions is learning!
Thank you as well David for your response.

[Maurice]

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections. :D


I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

[Jim McDougall]

Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions.
Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use.

You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves.
Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

[asomotif]

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

[A. G. Maisey]

I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim.

My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that.

Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed.

But we tend to forget what wages were back then.

I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week

Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won.

Now tell me:-

how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle?

In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK.

For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955.

What is today's value of a keris such as I describe?

Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris.


In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet :)
In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with.
These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell ,
kinda like us :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, I guess so Jim.

Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds.

Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot.

That is not the case today.

[asomotif]

I owned a javanese pedang with a VOC blade a few(4?)years ago.
I found the pictures again, unfortunately not very good pictures.
But they give once more an impression of the blade form.

At that time I also sent these pictures to the dutch Army museum, and the curator confirmed that this was very likely an original VOC blade used for a javanese pedang.
To be sure he had to see the blade in hands, but I did not make the trip to the museum.
To stick with Alan's story. The pedang cost me about 1,5 days pay.
(I am pretty normal working class btw)
And when I sold it shortly after I did not make a noticable profit :-)

best regards,
Willem

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All~ I think the size and scope of the VOC operation was colosal ... This was a huge trading block not only in terms of transporting goods internationally by sea but as Ship Builders and Fortress Constructors it was mindblowing !! They arrived in Batavia (Jakarta) and built this...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Their operation was huge ... backed by an in built militia and private navy... :shrug:

[Maurice]

Thank you Willem for posting your Javanese pedang.
Most of the Indonesian swords with the VOC mark in the blade seems to be from Java.
As the Dutch were very dominant in their present overhere (we all have heard about Batavia, even some of you don't know what it exactly was) it can't be a coincedence to encounter most of the VOC blades overhere.

@ Jim and Alan: Yes the bad old days...when people could count on their pension still.... :)

Maurice

[erikscollectables]

Last week I spoke with an older collector who mentioned most keris were around 200 guilders in the Netherlands in the late 70s to early 80s - that is more than you will have to pay today for a "simple" keris. So looking back they were more expensive in that period as well. Maybe internet has brought relative prices down?

Anyway we should stay on topic - VOC blades :)

[Maurice]

Anyway we should stay on topic - VOC blades :)

Good idea Erik!

Here three swords with VOC dated blades in the Tropenmuseum collection of Amsterdam.
Two Timor swords, and one Batak sword.
One Timor sword came in the collection in 1887, and I think we can assume the other two also around that time as it's coming out of the same collection of the "Koninklijk Zoologisch Genootschap Natura Artis Magistra".

The VOC stamps, are all three marked with the "A" from the Amsterdam chamber, dated 1749, 1768 and 1786.


Maurice

[Maurice]

And a Borneo lance, donated by Herman Celosse to the Bronbeek museum Arnhem in 2012.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All Note to Library Please see http://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndonesiaVOC.htm#VOC for a comprehensive description of The Voc and related companies and histories/ stamps etc etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~It is interesting to note who was fighting for who!

Here is a small snippet regarding the switch over of mercenaries from the Dutch period to the British;

From http://www.army.lk/history.php

~ Quote''During the first half century of British occupation there were uprisings and palace intrigues particularly after the adventure into the Kandyan Kingdom. The Kandyan forces resorted to guerrilla warfare and were quite successful in their conflict against a better armed force of the British. Initially the British had their own troops for the defence of the Island which included naval vessels, artillery troops and infantry. Their headquarters was in Trincomalee.

In 1796, troops in the Dutch service who were Swiss and Malay were mercenaries transferred to the British East India Company. The Malays formed initially as a Malay Corps and later in 1802 as the 1st Ceylon Regiment under a British Commanding Officer. In the same year, a 'Sinhalese' unit was raised and called the 2nd Ceylon Regiment, also known as the 'Sepoy' corps. In 1803 a 3rd Ceylon Regiment was raised with Moluccans and recruits from Penang. All these regiments fought in the Kandyan wars of 1803. More Sinhalese and Malays were recruited to these regiments and in 1814 a 4th regiment was raised comprising African troops. In 1817 the name of the regiment was changed to the Ceylon Rifle Regiment.

After the Matale rebellion led by Puran Appu in 1848, the recruitment of Sinhalese was stopped. The history of the Ceylon Rifle Regiment marks the first phase of the employment of non-British personnel in Ceylon for service in the British Military establishment".Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Bryan.H]

Shaver Kool (http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000140.html) :cool:



:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A quick brief on VOC is on http://www.nusantara-delft.nl/en/historisch-overzicht/97-1602-1799-de-voc-periode- From which I have extracted a plan of Batavia fort showing the canal system, The Governor, and a Kastane sword shown separately recorded as with a VOC blade mark.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi :shrug:

[kronckew]

the hembrug marked blade on pg.1 of the thread is from a dutch klewang.

like this one of mine: (we've discussed these before, ad nauseum)
(mine's got a solingen made blade tho :) )

[kronckew]

i do have a pedang that has a numerical marking and some scroll work that looks much like some of the examples, no VOC logo tho.has no. 350 on the other side. (grip is what i use for my avatar) not sure what that 1st 18??? number is tho.

[Maurice]

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

Hi Willem,

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

I was a kind of in a hurry, but if I'm right it was from a donation somewhere in the 20th century..

[Maurice]

Though this javanese with VOC mark seems also to be collected early!
(From the Zeeuws Museum in Middelburg).

[Maurice]

PS I think the VOC mark would make the item much more valuable to collect.
For instance how much would you give for the lid of a chest with VOC mark, and how much would you pay for the same lid without the VOC mark?

:-)

[asomotif]

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.


Hello Maurice,

You're making the best of your holidays !

Thank you for sharing these pictures.
Interesting to see a blade with "M" Middelburg marking.

The javanese style pedang with silver scabbard is realy great.

Best regards,
Willem

[Fried Krom]

All,

Attached some pictures of my VOC boarding-cutlass.

Who can identify the hilt for me?

Thanks in advance,

Fried Krom

[Maurice]

Hello Fried,

You have a good old Batak podang with VOC blade.
I have seen several podangs with VOC blade and it is always nice seeing one pop up here or there.

Best wishes,
Maurice

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections. :D


I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Salaams Maurice, Refering back to your post 44 ....I think from this source please see https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-collectie/detail/316391/ Sorry I couldnt get a translation...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

[midelburgo]

Recently I made a post including a Spanish-Philippine hilt with a blade marked 1736 and the symbol from the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24137

I also mention there a couple of threads with VOC blades, not shown here:

Keris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=626&highlight=%28Dutch+East+Indies+Company%29

Japanese:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18425&highlight=%28Dutch+East+Indies+Company%29

[Gavin Nugent]

To add to the diversity of regions, I've a simple early old Guom of tradtional form here with a VOC blade too.

Gavin

[JeffS]

Another to add, similar opi to examples in post #55. This blade had deep rust and very corroded, it took a lot of work to remove. Quite the surprise to find the markings. The 1741 date can be read on both sides but the VOC logo with Amsterdam stamp mostly eroded from one side but legible on the other. This is a double edged sword, same three grooves at vase of blade as examples from Tropenmuseum. Sort of a colonial full circle with the Dutch East Indies coin from 1945...

[Gavin Nugent]

A vietnamese Guom with VOC blade... no blade images currently on file...

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Gav and Jeff for reviving this thread!
When I began this in 2014, my goal was to learn more on the blades with VOC markings, and how widely diffused they were through the 'Indies' and Asia.
Also, I was curious on the convention of placing the year adjacent to the VOC balemark along with initial of the chamber (there were 6) of origin.
Most common was of course the 'A' for Amsterdam.

Most of these blades were hanger type, mostly on 'cutlass' type swords, it seems these were of course likely in use on the vessels. As typical these were held in arms stores and not 'issued' individually. However, their profound diffusion among native populations suggest these were often traded.

In "Arsenal of the World". J.P. Puype 1996 (pp.47-50, 'VOC Under Arms', C.O.van der Meij);
"...the VOC used edged weapons, albeit to a lesser extent. The swords that were given to sea captains were mostly ceremonial weapons. Soldiers that went to Ceylon got a backsword. These backswords were called 'pedarme' were thought to be more useful when climbing mountain (?) or marching through forests. There are by the way, various opinions about the way these swords looked".

As far as I know, there have not been examples of such an arming sword with backsword blade known with the VOC mark, so it adds to the topic of the marking of VOC on blades.

On p. 50 (Puype op. cit) it is noted that Asian weapons were highly sought as collectible by rich merchants who bought these and all kinds of exotic items as curiosities. While it is known that VOC troops never used native weapons, preferring their own European forms, it seems possible they might have traded the European edged weapons for native items. This was a common circumstance in colonial situations. As seen by most references on arms of these times, the emphasis was always on guns, and mention of edged weapons is almost incidental.

What I am curious about is why the year invariably in line with the VOC and kamer initial? The latest year I have seen is 1793 (VOC ended in 1796), the earliest 1736. In contrast, the English counterpart, their East India Co. (VEIC) never marked the blades of their edged weapons, only guns and locks (aside from bayonets) with their balemark.

I have understood these blades were either Solingen or made in Holland by perhaps German makers based there. The hilting seems to have been in Dutch shops.
There was a central warehouse at Kloveniersburgwal called East India House, as the arsenal for all weapons, but wonder if appropriate stamping of blades to each chamber was done there or in such location in chamber itself?

[Gavin Nugent]

Jim, thank you for your learned insights here.

Unfortunatly I cannot fully read the date on this Guom example... 17 is there and a partial 0.

The Kamer stamp is partial too... looks like "H".

There are numerous other European stamps to the blade on both sides, Equal armed crosses at each end, effectively encapsulating the date markings. There are crescent symbols that are perhaps "moons" and some other hints of markings I've yet to reveal under the thick old build up on the blade.

Length, blade is 64cms.

When considering this Preanger Gobang I had many years ago with a blade just under 51cm long, it is easy to see how the blades were trimmed to fit native applications.
Further to this, the "H" on the Guom is not large like the "A" on the Gobang and it is below the VOC markings, not above.
What all the orientation means or leads to, I cannot say.

Gavin

[Jim McDougall]

Jim, thank you for your learned insights here.

Unfortunatly I cannot fully read the date on this Guom example... 17 is there and a partial 0.

The Kamer stamp is partial too... looks like "H".

There are numerous other European stamps to the blade on both sides, Equal armed crosses at each end, effectively encapsulating the date markings. There are crescent symbols that are perhaps "moons" and some other hints of markings I've yet to reveal under the thick old build up on the blade.

Length, blade is 64cms.
When considering this Preanger Gobang I had many years ago with a blade just under 51cm long, it is easy to see how the blades were trimmed to fit native applications.
Further to this, the "H" on the Guom is not large like the "A" on the Gobang and it is below the VOC markings, not above.
What all the orientation means or leads to, I cannot say.

Gavin


Thanks so much Gav!
This is really interesting and I wish we could see the blade to see these makings in configuration as this sounds like it could be an anomaly as far as VOC blades.
If I recall there were variations in the placement of the kamer initial, the A for Amsterdam was most common; with Rotterdam and Middelburg next in commonality. I cannot say I have ever seen an 'H' which may well be for Hoorn.

Of the six chambers , in the 18th c. Hoorn lost its importance as a port city, but retained its place as a regional trade center for localities there. No idea how such subordination might apply, but thought worth noting.