New Maguindanao Kris Form

[Battara]

Greetings folks!

I just picked up this Maguindanao kris on eBay. The seller says it came from a WWII vet stationed in the Philippines. Unfortunately that is all he will say and the vet died.

In any case this kris has a silver dot near the tip on both sides. The blade is laminated, but what is amazing is what I found:

1. the ganga is solid silver

2. the front under the ganga is made of inserted silver with a copper tongue

3. the hilt weighs about a pound by itself

4. the hilt is made of solid cast/chased orange swassa (9k), cast/chased/filigree yellow gold (10k+), and silver

The Maguindanao label is based in part on the blade, in part on the scabbard (which I will have to make a new one since this one is in pieces and missing some pieces). However this unique hilt has never been documented or seen as far as I know, except for something similar in the hands of none other than Datu Piang.

Enjoy.

[Battara]

Here is the picture of Datu Piang with his similar kris in his hand on the right side of the picture.

I reposted the hilt of my kris for comparison.

[Robert]

WOW!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: That's about all I can say right now. By the way, you owe me a new keyboard, drooled so badly on my other one it shorted out.

Robert

[CharlesS]

Absolutely magnificent Battara! Saw it on Ebay and was afraid to take the plunge, but glad you did!

Looks like you have reset the hilt properly...it wasn't set correctly in the Ebay pics.

Oh my what a little polish and clean-up will do!!...it's an absolute treasure!

Karma, baby, karma!!!

[kino]

So you're the one with the deep pockets.
After all the polishing and etching, you underpaid considering the outcome.
Congrats on catching a nice sword.
It amazes me how you already have it and got it all spiffied up in such a short time.

Is the pommel wood or ivory under the silver?

[Battara]

Inside the hilt there is a small and narrow wood core. The rest is heavy swassa and gold. Solid - no plating as far as I can tell. Thus no ivory. As I said earlier there are remnants of small casting bubbles in the thick heavy swassa.

[moose]

Fantastic! Thanks for posting. :eek:

[Battara]

Oh I forgot, here is a picture of how I get it before I did clean up and restoration. This picture also shows the original scabbard, which I shall replicate because this original scabbard is crumbling, splitting apart, and splintering. The scabbard bands are white metal (after polishing and testing).

Yes I was freaked when I saw it and saw the potential based on the patinas on the metals. I first thought it was cast silver, but was happily surprised when I polished it and tested it, discovering it to be pure cast swassa gold. :eek:

Also when I was polishing the blade, I noticed that the ganga was not a different steel but an altogether different metalthan the rest of the blade. So I tested that and it came out to be solid silver - looking like it is as high as sterling silver (92.5% pure silver). :eek:

I am very happy..... :D

if there are any other examples like this or like what is in Datu Piang's hands, please post here for our research and learning. Mine and his are the only examples of this type that I am aware.

[CharlesS]

Jose,

What's going on with the blade just beneath ganja???...it looks like it wants to be a twist core. Does that pattern end abruptly?

[David]

Wow, i was watching this as well, but didn't imagine those metals were involved. Great catch José. Congrats! :)

[Spunjer]

Yowza!!!! Now that's a score! Truly a rare piece if I may say so. Never saw a silver gangya before, and prolly won't see one again. And the handle; wow. Just wow. Echoing Charles' comment: is the blade twistcore? It looks it. Now regarding the scabbard... I realize it doesn't jive with the kris' s new look, but does it have to be discarded? I can see if it weren't original to the blade, but that poor thing has as much history as the kris itself :shrug:
Talk about blast from the past: Moose n where the heck have you been??? Nice to see ya back, my friend

[Ferguson]

I couldn't be happier for you Jose. Congrats!
Steve

[Battara]

Regarding the pattern weld - no it does not end abruptly but it does not continue down the blade either. Kind of fizzles out really.

On the subject of the scabbard - I'm keeping the original scabbard! I just can't keep the kris in the scabbard without disintegrating the scabbard. I am keeping them separate, making a new one in the same fashion as the old one and wrapping the old one up for safe keeping and preservation.




By the way, I forgot what the talismanic meaning is behind the silver dot in the blade tip. Any ideas?

[manteris1]

a good shot, well done...................jimmy

[Spunjer]

The resemblance between that and Datu Piang's kris is so uncanny. With all the bling associated with it, it might just be his, or a part of his personal collection...

[Sajen]

Hello Jose,

you are going to replace your stolen weapons with even better pieces! I have seen by the auction photos that it is a beauty but that it is so nice......

Maybe you should built up a scabbard like on the picture from Datu Piang, when not the same kris it will be the same manufacturer. :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

The resemblance between that and Datu Piang's kris is so uncanny. With all the bling associated with it, it might just be his, or a part of his personal collection...
Oh I would love it if it were. That is why I was so disappointed when the seller told me that his contract with the family is not to divulge the identity of the previous owner. :(

When I first stumbled unto this kris, I remembered this picture of Datu Piang with his kris that has puzzled me for years. I have tried in vain to research his type of kris. No documentation, no example found, not even a type mentioned in Cato or anyone else.

So when I saw this, I knew that this was unique and perhaps the only other example known in the world (so far). I had to have it and restore it/clean it up and research it.

[Battara]

Hello Jose,

you are going to replace your stolen weapons with even better pieces! I have seen by the auction photos that it is a beauty but that it is so nice......

Maybe you should built up a scabbard like on the picture from Datu Pinang, when not the same kris it will be the same manufacturer. :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef
I thought about that, but decided that the new scabbard should be in keeping with the original spirit of the piece, as close to the old scabbard as possible.

[VVV]

Wow!!!

Great that you won it, Jose, and that it has so many hidden bonuses.
It was on my watch list, too but I was out and forgot to set my sniper.
I would never had suspected that the hilt was solid swassa…

Michael

[Spunjer]

When I first stumbled unto this kris, I remembered this picture of Datu Piang with his kris that has puzzled me for years. I have tried in vain to research his type of kris. No documentation, no example found, not even a type mentioned in Cato or anyone else.


Datu Piang's kris is unique, but i don't think it's a different type. the pommel is the smaller abbreviated type sarimanok minus the tail and neck. what makes it looks so different is the way the wing-like protrusion is expressed by the craftsman; chased, rather than one solid piece. also the excellent ukkil presentation just above the ferrule. which makes me think it was done by the same craftsman who did Piang's kris on the photo.
really glad that you got it, tho, Jose. now that you posted the picture, it really answered a lot of questions on what was going on with the kris old man Amai Mingka (Piang) was holding. to compare those two is just amazing!!!

[VANDOO]

WOW!! AND THE MAGICIAN PULLS ANOTHER RARE TREASURE OUT OF HIS HAT. :D ITS GREAT WHEN KNOWLEGE, PERSERVERENCE, MONEY AND EXCEPTIONAL LUCK ALL COME TOGETHER FOR SUCH A GREAT FIND. IT COULDN'T HAPPEN TO A NICER GUY. CONGRADULATIONS. :cool:

[kino]

1. the ganga is solid silver
2. the front under the ganga is made of inserted silver with a copper .

Battara, I have a kris with similar characteristics as above. I wonder how common they were. Ibeam had posted a photo of his Kris with a copper(?) ganya. I wonder what purpose a non ferrous metal ganga serves; talismanic or just purely decorative?

[Battara]

Thank you so much folks. Your support after what happened to me this summer moves me. I thank you all.

Kino, that is a good question. I too think it is talismanic, but the meaning escapes me.

Spunger, I agree that the same craftsman who did this kris did Datu Piang's too. Another reason I am excited about this piece and the connection to Piang.

Just to be clear, the gold band that you circled is in fact both solid, chased, and filigreed - all the above. Also the section circled is also made of 2 parts, both solid. The large section of yellow gold is cast and chased, welded to the swassa. The other part is a band of yellow gold that is cast, chased, and filigreed, not welded but held in place with by wrapped silver wire.

Now as far as the sarimanok is concerned, I will study this further.

[Spunjer]

When I first stumbled unto this kris, I remembered this picture of Datu Piang with his kris that has puzzled me for years. I have tried in vain to research his type of kris. No documentation, no example found, not even a type mentioned in Cato or anyone else.



ok, lemme go slow on this one...

as far as the handle, the shape is similar to this one:

[Spunjer]

...on the picture posted above, notice how the tail part and the front part are blunt. here's the same picture, encircled this time. and also a picture of your Piang's kris, encircled at the same spots. i also added another kris that has similar designed pommel.

[Spunjer]

now moving on to the part i mentioned yesterday. clearly we're talking two different things. first of all you mentioned that you have not seen this type of kris before, hence me posting those pictures just above this post to show a handle that is similar type. now granted the example for comparison i've given is not gold, filigreed, chased, solid etc. but rather it's made out of ivory, but the point is, the overall design is similar: blunt front and blunt back



Just to be clear, the gold band that you circled is in fact both solid, chased, and filigreed - all the above. Also the section circled is also made of 2 parts, both solid. The large section of yellow gold is cast and chased, welded to the swassa. The other part is a band of yellow gold that is cast, chased, and filigreed, not welded but held in place with by wrapped silver wire.

Now as far as the sarimanok is concerned, I will study this further.

now, going back to the part i encircled yesterday...
i can clearly see how your piece is made out of, jose. it's excellently ornated, but that's not what i'm saying. what i've done on the pictures provided is draw a line around the part i'm trying to describe. notice on both ivory pieces, the wing-like appendage is solid, not stylized. on your piece it's rather stylized, in ukkil fashion i might add, to the point they're feather like.

your piece solved the mystery of Datu Piang's kris, my friend. i've always wondered what's up with all those lines and wiggles. now we know it's a very blinged out pommel!!!

[CharlesS]

Spunjer,

Interesting comments all around. I think normally we look at blunted ivory pommels as potentially damaged. Perhaps we should be more careful in our examination.

Had I seen the one with a silver sleeve with no further explanation, I would instantly have assumed the hilt was more Malay than from the Philippines. That silver sleeve looks Malay through and though to me. Of course the blade would have to have something to do with it and it appears to have a Moro style cloth tassel. Is the okir work there exclusively Moro?

[Maurice]

By the way, I forgot what the talismanic meaning is behind the silver dot in the blade tip. Any ideas?

Wow what a nice kris you have found Jose. Congrats with this beauty!
I don't know what the silver dot in the blade tip means, and I'm also curious if somebody find something out about it in the future.

I have a mandau with one dot in the middle which is all through the blade, and four dots around the central dot like a square, inlaid in only one side of the blade and not going all through the blade.
Though dots in mandaublades are not uncommon, it's strange to have them on a mandaublade situated like these.
As the dayaks has other beliefs as the moro's, I don't think the solution of the meaning of such dot will be applicable for both swords.
But I thought it would be a nice side addition to show the images here...

Maurice

[Spunjer]

Spunjer,


Had I seen the one with a silver sleeve with no further explanation, I would instantly have assumed the hilt was more Malay than from the Philippines. That silver sleeve looks Malay through and though to me. Of course the blade would have to have something to do with it and it appears to have a Moro style cloth tassel. Is the okir work there exclusively Moro?
charles, the kris in question is moro. here's a link to a full body shot:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17109&highlight=miniature+kris

[CharlesS]

charles, the kris in question is moro. here's a link to a full body shot:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17109&highlight=miniature+kris


No doubt Spunjer, it's definitely Moro. Once I saw the whole thing I remember we have looked at that one together.

Sorry to have temporarily strayed from the initial thread topic.

[Battara]

Thanks Spunger, now I understand to what you are referring.

Also like you I finally understand the decor on Datu Piang's kris.

On the sarimanok, I finally see how you are seeing it last night.





Maurice, although they are 2 different sets of cultures, they are cousins and may share similar symbolic traits.

[CCUAL]

Not as ornate as yours but here's another style.

[CCUAL]

and another.

[moose]

Talk about blast from the past: Moose n where the heck have you been??? Nice to see ya back, my friend

Thanks! Ron,
Been doing different things but have swung by once in awhile. I'm training in FMA's again so picking out a couple of my swords to do some restoration on. Figured I'd need to be picking Jose's brain here soon. ;)
Maybe get a couple of old questions answered by the group.
Nice to be back ...

[moose]

On the right is my diminutive kakatua style pommel made of ivory. Blunt but not quite as blunt as Spunger's.

[Battara]

Welcome back Moose.

Your piece on the right maybe a little different - it seems to me more in line with earlier forms, not so much this type on discussion. However it would help to see the rest of the blade as well.

Just for clarification: yes I agree that the general form is not unknown. However what I have not seen before and what I am catagorizing as new is the version that is in Datu Piang's hand and the nearly identical version now in my possession.

That being said, I am glad Cual that you brought up the picture of the ivory one that seems to be in the same family - I forgot where it was. :o

All of these 3-4 examples of this type of pommel style show us that there is more that Cato did not mention in his book, although his is a beginning grammer, so to speak.

And Moose, if you want to pick my brain (and not my nose) you can message me here or at battara@hotmail.com :D

[Spunjer]

Thanks Spunger, now I understand to what you are referring.

Also like you I finally understand the decor on Datu Piang's kris.

On the sarimanok, I finally see how you are seeing it last night.






no, thank YOU, for posting this wonderful kris jose. it really help us solved the mystery of Datu Piang's kris. it's just too cool that you got the twin piece. can't wait to see this in real life, bro! not to mention how this particular piece really strengthened the sarimanok connection

[ThePepperSkull]

What can I say other than I am speechless? What a great find, and I'm so glad it went to someone who posts here, as I wouldn't have learned about the abbreviated/blunt sarimanok pommel being a consistently executed form.

I have one with a similar form pommel (albeit wood) as well, and once i find pictures I'll post them on the thread to contribute.

Again, great find, Jose. I wish I'd bid more on it when it was up, but I'm glad it went to you.

EDIT: What would the chances be that this actually is Datu Piang's Kris? I'm thinking that since he died prior to WWII, he could have passed it on to a relative who may have had to replace the scabbard at some point. Are there any other shots of Piang and his Kris we can use for reference to see just how similar the hilts are?

[Spunjer]

EDIT: What would the chances be that this actually is Datu Piang's Kris? I'm thinking that since he died prior to WWII, he could have passed it on to a relative who may have had to replace the scabbard at some point. Are there any other shots of Piang and his Kris we can use for reference to see just how similar the hilts are?
you know, i've been comparing jose's kris and Piang's kris, and the only difference i could find is that final ring closest to the pommel. on piang's picture, i noticed that the rings are spaced evenly, with the final ring placed just below the reversed number 7 looking ukkil. also, it seems like there's a cloth of some sort between the top ring and the ring immediately below it. meanwhile, Jose's kris has the top ring seated next to second ring...
other than that, the ukkils are eerily similar. heck, everything else is similar. i mean, for those that collects moro krises, has anyone ever seen two krises that are THIS similar???

which begs another question: does the ring closest to the pommel somewhat loose, or by any chance, moveable???

[Battara]

Well the ring/band below the pommel is held there by twisted silver wire at the front. It is not actually a ring. I agree that there are some small differences in the 2, but again minor.

I too wonder if this could have been owned by Piang.......:shrug:


Here are 2 other pictures of another metal pommel kris worn by Datu Piang - one is a close up of the other:

[CharlesS]

you know, i've been comparing jose's kris and Piang's kris, and the only difference i could find is that final ring closest to the pommel. on piang's picture, i noticed that the rings are spaced evenly, with the final ring placed just below the reversed number 7 looking ukkil. also, it seems like there's a cloth of some sort between the top ring and the ring immediately below it. meanwhile, Jose's kris has the top ring seated next to second ring...
other than that, the ukkils are eerily similar. heck, everything else is similar. i mean, for those that collects moro krises, has anyone ever seen two krises that are THIS similar???

which begs another question: does the ring closest to the pommel somewhat loose, or by any chance, moveable???

The biggest difference I see is that Jose's has one baca-baca and Piang's has two. Otherwise they are virtually identical.

[CCUAL]

Well, besides the rings difference there is also a difference on the upper ukil of both krises. The spine of the asang-asang's stirrup is very visible and it look like it was connected to the top ring of the handle. Maybe, after Piang's death, who ever inherited his sword, managed to dismantle the handle and removed the frit side clamp and stirrup? :shrug: preferred a single instead of two?

[CCUAL]

photos for comparison. Piang's top ring spacing between those ukil is a bit shorter and missing a few details compare to Jose's.

If I am not mistaken, your kris has an internal asang-asang stirrup which was probably coiled in the tang of your kris? Datu Piang has an external clamp stirrup, you can clearly see the stirrup's ins and outs from those handle rings.

[Robert]

I do not know if this will help, but here is a side by side of the three hilt photos.

Robert

[Battara]

CCual thanks for finding a sharper and more complete picture than mine. Robert thank you for the comparison pictures.

Also notice that the kris in Datu Piang's hand has metal straps going up 2 opposite sides of the hilt where as mine doesn't have any.

[Battara]

Ok boys and girls. It looks some things have changed.

First the good news: upon further clean up I have discovered remnants of a second silver baca-baca clamp on the back of the blade.

Now the bad news: that means I'll now have to take the hilt off again and make a brand new silver baca-baca, attempting to match the other one. :mad:

Also the remains of a silver strap on the present baca-baca - not sure if it went up into the hilt or up the sides of the hilt like in the Datu Piang's picture. :confused:

It seems to be getting closer and closer to looking exactly like the one in the picture. :shrug:

[Robert]

Hello Jose, Not trying to be the wet blanket here, but the only way that your example could be the one shown in the photo of Datu Piang would be if the orange swassa filigree section has been replaced. Both hilts are very simalar but not quite the same. This is just my personal opinion on these hilts and I am by NO means an expert on kris or for that matter anything else. :o I will leave with a question though. Could this possibly be another of the Datu's kris but just one that is more ornate than the one in the photo? :shrug:

Best,
Robert

[Spunjer]

CCUAL colored pic helps a lot in picking up more details. you could clearly see the double straps running on the front and back. with that said, notice that the straps are wrapped by what appears to be a wide strip of cloth(?) in between the rings.
jose, if for some reason the ring/band closest to the pommel is moveable, i would bet it's the same kris.

[Spunjer]

re-did the ring. i did it a bit high on the first one.

[Spunjer]

... and another thing that don't make any sense is the ring/band placement. There's no rhyme or rhythm to it. Normally it's ring/space/ring/space/ ring/space/ring. meanwhile, Jose's kris goes ring/space/ring/space/ring/ring. Never seen that sequence before unless the final ring slid off. .

[Battara]

Well Robert, I am not claiming that mine is the same as that in the picture. Part of this comes by answering Spunger's question - so far as I can tell, the top ring cannot come off nor does it seem moveable.

[Robert]

These are the best that I can do for comparison photos of the two hilts. I don't Know if they will be of any further help or not, but here they are non the less.

Robert

[Dimasalang]

Unbelievable piece!!! :eek:
Selos. :p

[Battara]

Robert, thank you for the type of comparison you made in pictures. It helps - yes uncanny similarity.

Dimasalang, I understand...... :D

[Spunjer]

some more photoshopping...

[Robert]

Jose, do the bands show any wear where (if this originally had the two outside straps) they might have made contact? Also does the band closest to the end of the hilt have gaps where the straps would have gone underneath it like shown in the photo above?

Robert

[Maurice]

It could be an identical, but it looks very much the same as datu Piangs kris!

Very fascinating and probably the best find in years Jose!

Maurice

[kai]

Sorry for joining the party that late... ;)

Congrats Jose - I'm very glad you got this spectacular kris to mellow the sorrow earlier this year!

While Jose's kris is very, very similar to Datu Pinang's shown on the well-known pic, I'm sure it's not the same piece: There are several differences in details - most obviously seen in the okir of the wing; also the ring closest to the blade seem to be differently ornamented. You can most easily verify if you check the holes/windows of the open-worked okir along the edge of the wing starting from the curly tip: it goes small-large-small vs. large-small-large. Despite the limited resolution of the Datu Pinang pic, there are some more okir details that are different. It would still be very interesting to hear wether there is any wear detectable that would indicate a similar strap construction.

I agree that the placement of the rings is kinda odd. However, pushing the last ring further toward the pommel into a similar position as shown on the historic pic, would pretty much kill the flow of lines of a major part of the okir work. Not that hiding stuff and breaking the rhythm is something unheard of in this culture but still...

This find really did clear up many questions I had been mulling over when looking at that pic of Datu Pinang's kris again and again - kudos to Jose for sharing his treasure!

Best wishes,
Kai

[David]

I agree that the placement of the rings is kinda odd. However, pushing the last ring further toward the pommel into a similar position as shown on the historic pic, would pretty much kill the flow of lines of a major part of the okir work. Not that hiding stuff and breaking the rhythm is something unheard of in this culture but still...
Yes Kai, but isn't that exactly what it also does in the historic photo of Datu Pinang? :shrug:

[Spunjer]

Sorry for joining the party that late... ;)

Congrats Jose - I'm very glad you got this spectacular kris to mellow the sorrow earlier this year!

While Jose's kris is very, very similar to Datu Pinang's shown on the well-known pic, I'm sure it's not the same piece: There are several differences in details - most obviously seen in the okir of the wing; also the ring closest to the blade seem to be differently ornamented. You can most easily verify if you check the holes/windows of the open-worked okir along the edge of the wing starting from the curly tip: it goes small-large-small vs. large-small-large. Despite the limited resolution of the Datu Pinang pic, there are some more okir details that are different. It would still be very interesting to hear wether there is any wear detectable that would indicate a similar strap construction.


The kris on Piang's picture is the clearest we've got but unfortunately the minute details are very hard to discern, so I was basing my assumption on the the general outline. The details you mentioned are unfortunately pretty smeared, and we can just again assume that it might or might not be similar. I was looking at the reverse number 7, the three pretzel looking okir to the right of it, another pretzel/bowtie looking okir just above the reverse 7, and the overall motif of the wing appendage okir. But then again Jose mentioned that the top ring is immovable, so I guess it's all moot...
:shrug:

[CCUAL]

Photos from ebay auction. See photo #3 the ring was cut for internal clamp stirrup.

[Battara]

The only problem with this supposition is that there is absolutely no room for internal fitting because the wood core is too tight against the fittings and there no room either next to the tang (yes I took off the hilt).

I find it more likely that the silver strip bend in a way that part went on top and the other part went up the hilt.

However in general I would agree with you.

[CCUAL]

Honestly, I am with Spunjer on this one, if this kris is not the one on the photo there is a stought possibility that this belongs to datu Piang's
personal collections. The extravagance of materials used in your kris
is superlative that only a well off datu can afford or Piang himself.
In the other hand, this might had belonged to a datu influenced by
Piang or blood related.

I was right behind you on that auction, I kind'da bumped a little for you as I wanted it my self, I had the same thoughts about it. I would keep it as is if that was mine, we just do not know for fact what's behind it. Sweet catch Albovias. :)

I hope you don't get bored with it right away and start monkeying with it. :D

[Battara]

Here is a picture of what I am talking about: the evidence of a second baka-baka.

[Battara]

And these pictures illustrate evidence of the possibility of another ring - note the cuts in the swassa metal along the lines parallel to the other rings below.

[Battara]

Thus I will try to make a second baka-baka to match the other with metal strips going up the sides. However, I may just leave the top ring alone since it is very tight and I am afraid of breaking it.

[Robert]

Jose, I can easily see the shadow of where the second baka-baka was originally but as to the cut marks in the swassa, they seem too random and I really do not see a pattern or anything else that would indicate that there was another ring (now missing) on the hilt. I hope that you will share photos of the process involved in the making of the new baka-baka and securing strips as well as the finished product.

Best,
Robert

[David]

Thus I will try to make a second baka-baka to match the other with metal strips going up the sides. However, I may just leave the top ring alone since it is very tight and I am afraid of braking it.
José, i know how much you enjoy fiddling with these things, but if this really is or even has a strong possibility of being the historically important kris that we have been talking about here are you SURE you want to make changes to it like that? :shrug:

[Robert]

After re-reading my earlier post I want to make it clear that I am only in favor of replacing parts such as the baka-baka and its retaining straps that have evidence that clearly show it was an original part of the hilt that it is now missing. As to the securing straps that run on the outside of the hilt, (like the ones shown on the other kris) unless there is evidence to show proof positive that these parts were originally on this hilt it is MHO that they should not be added.

Robert

[Horsa]

Battara,

Fantastic cleaning job on the Kris. Its a stunning improvement - however it does leave me pondering where the line can be drawn between enhancing antique metal and going too far.

Im under the impression its not recommended to remove the patina of an antique weapon.

Clearly you know what you are doing here.

Always antique weapons are purchased in a less than perfect state.

Where does one draw the line?


Horsa

[David]

Battara,
Fantastic cleaning job on the Kris. Its a stunning improvement - however it does leave me pondering where the line can be drawn between enhancing antique metal and going too far.

Im under the impression its not recommended to remove the patina of an antique weapon. Horsa
In regards to "enhancing antique metal", IMHO tarnish is not the same as patina. Precious metals such as silver and gold (suassa) are meant to shine. Even when i watch the Antique Roadshow they suggest that silver items are meant to be kept in polish. I think José has done a crackerjack job bringing this old weapon up to snuff.
However, were i personally draw the line is at adding on pieces that we assume might have once been there, especially when we are unsure. Firstly we need to ask ourselves if we are really capable of doing the job so that it doesn't look like modern add-on work. Will the materials and craftsmanship perfectly match? I have rarely seen modified antique weapons done by anybody were their modern modifications aren't immediately obvious as such. Secondly there is the history of the piece which i feel should be preserved at all costs. Many kris have just a single baka-baka, perhaps more than have two. I am not clear whether this is simply a matter of taste or style or what. Now IF this is actually the same weapon as the one pictured with Datu Piang then it did indeed seem to have had two baka-baka at one time. But we have no evidence of how or why one of those baka-baka were removed. Was it lost, broken or removed by choice of style? How do we in the modern age then decide if it belongs there or not? IMHO José, the kris looks fine as it is. If it had NO baka-baka at all i could see at least some reason to add one in order to secure the hilt properly, but given the current condition of piece i just wouldn't mess with the history of it. If it truly is Datu Piang's keris that history should be preserved, not enhanced. :shrug: :)

[Battara]

I will consider these arguments.

[Spunjer]

ok, a little update:

in a recent conversation i have with Amai Mingka's (Datu Piang) granddaughter, i mentioned this kris. according to the story that was passed on to her by her grandma, Datu Piang has a personal panday in Dulawan (incidentally, that town is now known as Datu Piang). whenever he has a particular weapon made, whether it be kris, spears, etc., he would commission this panday to make multiple copies, and he would give these pieces to foreign dignitaries who visited him and had given him gifts. now, this would make sense why this piece and the one on the historical picture is so similar...
in a way, this change the common perception in which each individual kris was made to one specific person.
sooo, there's a strong possibility that your piece might be "as is", batara. a similar handle was made, an extra blade lying around, personal panday of Datu Piang put it together, then BAM! instant replica of his favorite sword...

[Battara]

Thanks so much Spunger. This sheds all kinds of light on this piece. Explains why this is identical and yet not identical to the one in the picture. So there is an even higher possibility that this belonged to Datu Piang, even though it is not the one in the picture.

By the way, I have decided not to put the straps up the hilt - would have modify or replace the twisted silver wire. I am not willing to do that nor do anything in which certainty is not assured.

Now for the baka-baka, that is a different matter. Still thinking on that.

[Battara]

Just thought I would place these pictures in black and white to better compare them without color distraction. There are enough tiny differences to my eye to show that these are not the exact same in the hilts (excluding the ring question).

Also, I think it interesting that although Datu Piang may have had several of theses made, he approved of this specific form and design and liked it enough to have it copied for his use.

[Spunjer]

just a theory, but perhaps the kris pictured with him would be his personal favorite. copies were made, and were given to some real important dignitaries...

[Battara]

just a theory, but perhaps the kris pictured with him would be his personal favorite. copies were made, and were given to some real important dignitaries...
That's what I'm thinking........

[Battara]

I have decided not to bother to take the time (which I don't have) to make a new scabbard. Instead I wanted to and decided to attempt to stabilize and replace missing parts of the scabbard.

The scabbard was splintering into pieces, so I stabilized it from the inside, made a replacement belt stop that was originally in the hole towards the top in this style of scabbard. I also had to take off the original stain (yes it was stained brown I found out), smoothed out some of the bumps, and especially took off the large drips of white paint that later dropped onto it sometime in the past. At the same time I cleaned the nickel-silver bands.

I dare not go any further because I am afraid of doing harm, and I am also limited due to the thinness of the edges of the scabbard and the softness of the wood. Therefore some of the edges of the scabbard that are jagged and open (damaged in the past sometime which also somewhat damaged the blade in those areas).

Posted are before and after pictures.

[Sajen]

I have decided not to bother to take the time (which I don't have) to make a new scabbard. Instead I wanted to and decided to attempt to stabilize and replace missing parts of the scabbard.

The scabbard was splintering into pieces, so I stabilized it from the inside, made a replacement belt stop that was originally in the hole towards the top in this style of scabbard. I also had to take off the original stain (yes it was stained brown I found out), smoothed out some of the bumps, and especially took off the large drips of white paint that later dropped onto it sometime in the past. At the same time I cleaned the nickel-silver bands.

I dare not go any further because I am afraid of doing harm, and I am also limited due to the thinness of the edges of the scabbard and the softness of the wood. Therefore some of the edges of the scabbard that are jagged and open (damaged in the past sometime which also somewhat damaged the blade in those areas).

Posted are before and after pictures.

Hello Jose,

very good work to stabilize the original scabbard, it look much better now!

Regards,

Detlef