Dragons, Naga and Bakunawa... [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

themorningstar

19th January 2006, 09:24 PM

Bakunawa is the feared god of darkness, hopelessness and despair. According to the Hiligaynon peoples, he takes the form of a huge greenish-black dragon. Once in a while, he awakes from his slumber at the bottom of the sea, attempting to wrestle cosmic supremacy from Bathala by eating his gold and silver disks. Bakunawa can raise the fury of nature, creating tornadoes, tidal waves, earthquakes and lightning storms with just a mere thought. He, however, because of his unorganized motivation, always loses to some other god or goddess, but he always waits for his time.

The great dragon has a whole layer of eerie, calm, black waters in the Abyss, where he spends most of his time planning for his next attack on the other deities.

Though his tactics are mostly disorganized, he usually calls upon powerful mortals to do his bidding. He manipulates them into exactly what he wants and then discards them when they become useless. Omens from Bakunawa come in the form of lightning or eclipses of the sun, moon or stars.

BSMStar

20th January 2006, 01:00 AM

Yea, I saw this site too... but I did not know what is believable here.

http://members.fortunecity.com/quebec/lloreph.htm

Looks more like a gaming site.

Titus Pullo

20th January 2006, 04:19 AM

Dragons are inspired by the reptiles in the crocodilian family. This comprises of the alligators, crocodiles, caimans, and ghareals. When Europeans went to Africa and saw the huge Nile crocodiles, they came up with the myth of dragons when describing to other fellow Europeans. The early drawings seem to represent the real crocodiles, but later, people started adding wings, and so forth, and pretty soon they were breathing fire! :D [laugh!] The Chinese also have myths and legends involving dragons, no surprise, because Chinese alligators (a very closed cousins of the American alligators) were once wide spread throughout China. They were hunted to the brink of extinction, but are now being extensively bred in captivities, in China. And crocs are also very common in South and Southeast Asia, which come in different species and size (ranging from the gigantic salt water crocodiles to the mean man-eating Indian muggers and Siamese crocodiles).

BSMStar

20th January 2006, 01:10 PM

In North America, the Plains Indians had flying dragons! And they did not look anything like a croc or an alligator (usually like Pterodactyls, but not always).

In fact, I was unaware that dragon myths were native to North America before the Europeans came over until I saw this show.

The scientist interviewed were trying too use dinosaur fossils and fossil foot prints as the reason for the myths (in North America and most locations... for example: dragon bones in China are fossils)... but it was amazing the similarities that all dragons have (different structures like scales)... that are not in fossils, but are guessed at today by scientist. :eek:

zamboanga

20th January 2006, 01:39 PM

Here is a tidbit...

http://www.sunstar.com.ph/static/ceb/2003/03/02/oped/mayette.q..tabada.matamata.html

The writer of this article was a colleague back when i was working over at sunstar cebu. (hi ma'am mayette!) if i'm not mistaken her husband is a member of the tabada clan which produces those sansibar blades.

zamboanga

20th January 2006, 01:40 PM

My mother-in-law used to be a dragon but she is quite nice these days.

LOL :D

Battara

20th January 2006, 04:27 PM

BMSstar mentions North American Indian dragons with wings:

Among my Cherokee ancestors, the Uk'tena was a huge water monster that looked like a giant snake with horns on its head and a crystal in the middle of its forhead. Very powerful and magical, killing and eating people. Only a pair of powerful giant birds were able to fight and destroy it. There is also a version of the rattal snake that has wings that has wings (featured on old Cherokee and Mississippian pottery at the time of European contact in the 1500s).

Tim Simmons

20th January 2006, 05:55 PM

To people in parts of PNG the crocodile is so totemic they might as well be dragons, much as they are the world over. Living with them as some Papuans do dragons are very real. here are three different styles of crocodile from PNG. The longest one is of a very soft light wood and painted,76cm. The next is a heavy dense wood 67cm and the last is burnished low fired earthen ware 18cm. I know these are not weapons but relevant to the topic. Tim

BSMStar

20th January 2006, 06:44 PM

It seems that dragons are divided into 3 main groups, those who slither (snake like), those with legs and those with wings.

They seem to be associated with water, caves and "deep, dark" forest.

Similarities between dragons (worldwide), scales, horns, teeth, a general reptile like appearance, claws (if they have feet) and sometimes wings. One can see why the "dinosaur bones" explanation was used to answer the origin of the myths.

The only issue I have with the dinosaur fossil connection, 1) the rarity of dinosaur fossil skulls (when was the last time you were wandering around an found one?) 2) how about finding the even more rare intact dinosaur skeleton 3) even modern scientist can not fully agree on what a living animal would have looked like after piecing all the bones together. The exact shape and color???? It's only an educated guess from known modern animal anatomy. And yet we are to believe that 1000 to 4000 years ago, they had this working knowledge of dinosaur anatomy? If true, then the origin of that knowledge sounds more interesting than dragons do.

People who’s survival depends on being able to identify things and animals around them... once they identify an animal such as a croc, they know it is a croc. They may make stories up about it, but it still is a croc. The Tibetans have a mythical croc that is portrayed on the phurpa. It did not become a dragon. I think this is a western mindset to think that these people were "uneducated" and are simply misidentifying known creatures. I think we need to be more open minded. I would have to disagree that worldwide, these people are lacking in smarts.... but I really did not start this thread to debate the existence of dragons or possible dragon origins.

I got started on this thread when I purchased my first Visayan sword... a Sanduko. A real beauty!!!! :D :D

Looking at the different Bakunawas on these deity hilts, I started to wonder why it is Bakunawa has a long horn or a short horn? The meaning of the four pedal flower? Being a deity, the must be stories about Bakunawa, deeds, travels, importance (after all, Bakunawa is on a lot of swords) and so on.

But all dragon stories are welcome!!!!!

BSMStar

20th January 2006, 06:50 PM

Hi Tim,

You sneeked your croc post in while I was typing...

Great pics. But are they dragons?

Tim Simmons

20th January 2006, 07:11 PM

Well I really do not know. To the Papuans they are magical like dragons are to us. When you live with beasts like these who needs dragons. Images are used very much like else where in the world, heraldry and other symbols of power, magic, good fortune, ill omen and so on. There is the Komodo Dragon if that is the correct spelling. How much of fantasy dragons is based on real life? There are some very big snakes so a naga is not too much a flight of fantasy. Tim

Tim Simmons

20th January 2006, 07:24 PM

What about Wyverns and Basilisk, not you personally :o

BSMStar

20th January 2006, 09:24 PM

What about Wyverns and Basilisk, not you personally :o

Yep, they count... tend to be fire breather types (or associated). Come on Tim, tell me some dragon stories that Grandpa told you late at night while bouncing ya on his knee. That part of the world has many a dragon tale to tell too. :)

Jens Nordlunde

20th January 2006, 09:43 PM

If you want to look for dragons, you should go much further back in time. How about going back to when our forefathers excavated founds of animals long dead, maybe combined with animals still living.

Spunjer

20th January 2006, 10:37 PM

Looking at the different Bakunawas on these deity hilts, I started to wonder why it is Bakunawa has a long horn or a short horn? The meaning of the four pedal flower? Being a deity, the must be stories about Bakunawa, deeds, travels, importance (after all, Bakunawa is on a lot of swords) and so on.

BSMStar,

i'm confused myself, but if the bakunawas were dragons, why is it that the 'diety' on this hilts looks more human being (albeit an ugly one) than reptilian? although the flower does shows up quite a lot on these carvings; whether it'd be the cap, or the eyes, or just plain deco around the hilt.
going back on the monster hilt, they kinda resemble more like an indo golok:

http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/golok/gol04.htm

here's another threadin reference to sanduko:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=353

BSMStar

21st January 2006, 02:24 AM

Spunjer,

I remember your post... it was a big part of what inspired me to look for this sword. Totally Awesome!!! ;)

It is my understanding that indeed Bakunawa (from Bako [bent] sawa [snake], see earlier link) is a sea dragon as are most of the naga (as I believe, in the region tend to be associated with the sea). I too use to think that it was more human looking. It seems that the more variations of Bakunawa I see - I see new things, man like, hooded dragon like, bearded dragon like, bat like and almost dog like (but the nose is definitely bat like)... and is likely due to the influence in the different areas. I like the hooded dragon versions too. I believe you have seen all of these forms pictured on the forum.

MABAGANI

21st January 2006, 05:50 AM

I must have been out during your thread Spunger, great pics and reference, nice to see what the scabbards looked like, I've kept only one example of this sword type, more long narrow blade with a hand guard. Interesting Indonesian ancestry link, shows one of the few groups which had cultural beliefs that continued after Islamic and Christian contact in the Visayas, something like the headhunters in the Northern Provinces of Luzon.

Titus Pullo

21st January 2006, 07:38 AM

Here are some pictures of Naga sculptures from Thailand.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/Paradon/naga6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/Paradon/naga5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/Paradon/Naga4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/Paradon/Naga3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/Paradon/Naga2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/Paradon/Naga1.jpg

Spunjer

21st January 2006, 12:50 PM

...... and is likely due to the influence in the different areas.

i'm with you that these hilt creatures are prolly regional by design, but why pick the bakunawa as a theme? the visayans (well, pilipinos in general) are very superstitious. here's a list of our mythological creatures (from what its given, it seems like these are just mostly luzon area creatures. there's a lot from the visayan region that aren't mentioned here based on what i hear from the elders growing up, i.e. the infamous tiktik, lol):

http://www.viloria.com/secondthoughts/archives/00000847.html

my point is, could it be possible that these so called 'diety' hilts are representations of different creatures and not just the bakunawa? you mentioned the bearded dragon, and that i can see as a representation of the bakunawa. what i'm having a hard time understanding is, most of these sundangs that has the 'diety' hilts came mostly from Panay and to an extent, Negros area. in regards to the bakunawa legend (heck, even the term 'bakunawa'), it's probably big among the cebuanos( the reason i say probably is because i'm not too familiar with the cebuano culture), but certainly not among the ilonggos (majority of the people from panay). so then, why the bakunawa as a general theme??? it might seem like i'm nitpicking here, but think maguindanao/maranao, or tausug/yakan. these tribes are closer to each other in regards to geographical location compared to the cebuanos/ilonggos, and yet you will notice that there's an ovbious difference among their styles (mindanao tribes).

look, i'm no expert at this; just a curious noobie that has lots and lots of questions...

btw, nice sanduko, BSMStar. mind posting a centerfold shot? ;)

BSMStar

21st January 2006, 07:56 PM

Some how I got a double post...

BSMStar

21st January 2006, 07:57 PM

Spunjer,

In no way am I an expert... I think you are much futher down the path of knowledge in this area. :)

I too would like to learn more about the Visayan culture, Moro culture and Indoneasian culture, especially related to the naga.

btw, nice sanduko, BSMStar. mind posting a centerfold shot? ;)

I would like to, but I lack the lighting to get a good picture of anything larger than what I have posted. I had to "enhance" the pictures I posted (lighten them up with Photo Editor to see any details) after using the best lights I have. And the sun ain’t shining to help things either..., maybe this spring.

BSMStar

21st January 2006, 08:04 PM

Here are some pictures of Naga sculptures from Thailand.

Great Pics Titus.... The naga has a horn too. Any connection here? :confused:

Titus Pullo

21st January 2006, 08:31 PM

Probably, Thai arts are influence by the Balinese, also. They were contact between cultures in Southeast Asia, exchanging ideas and goods back in the ancient time. And, also, Siam kingdom once ruled part of the Indonesian Island when it was expanding its influence.

Emanuel

22nd January 2006, 01:36 AM

Titus Pullo

22nd January 2006, 03:37 AM

I would imagine the one with the hilt made of wood would absorb the shock better on impact, and also cut down on the weight; thus, it makes it easier to use.

BSMStar

22nd January 2006, 05:50 AM

Hello to all,

Looking at the beautiful hilts of the Sanduko swords, I can't help being reminded of the moro pira with their elongated hilts. Could the pira hilt -although functional in protecting the arm- be a stylized/simplified version of these Sanduko hilts and if so could they represent the same deity/dragon?

Regards,
Manolo

I look with sadness at the nose on my Sanduko, it use to look like the one in the above picture, but an inch or more has been broken off (before I got it). :(

I think being a pira may have to do more with the blade shape than just the hilt. With the design differences (and correct me if I am wrong) it would seem that the two sword blade and hilt shapes serve different purposes as weapons.

Not all Bakunawas have a long nose (some are very short - see Spunjer's avatar). It would mean that the Sanduko would alone have been the influence for the pira (a bit of a hard sale).... The Sanduko "horn" really serves no protective purpose (it seems to easily break). Mine was broken; I doubt it happened in combat (more like in rough handling).

It would be nice to know why the differences for the Bakunawas. :)

Spunjer

22nd January 2006, 01:09 PM

The pictures below are both from Spunjer's old posts, I apologize for not asking permission first and I hope he won't mind.

nah, don't worry about it manolo, lol. post on, bro. i don't get too sensitive on petty stuff like that. if i didn't wanna share it, then i don't have any business posting it on the 'net.

BSMStar,
here's another tidbit:
i had a custom binangon made the last time i was in P.I. for the handle design, i requested the knob style. panday's reaction was, "oh, the chicken gizzard!" i asked, well isn't that suppose to be a stylized 'naga' head? he laughed and told me, "son, where did you ever got that stupid idea from?" :D :D :D
but then again, this is just one panday's opinion...

BSMStar

25th January 2006, 01:23 AM

Well Spunjer, I guess one man's naga is another man's chicken gizzard. :D :D

BSMStar

30th January 2006, 02:16 AM

Here is a link to some great sword pics that I have mentioned before, scroll down.... Love those dragons!!!

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001969-2.html

Spunjer

31st January 2006, 11:24 PM

yup,

concur with ya. nice sundangs in that thread... ;) ;) ;)

BSMStar

1st February 2006, 06:15 PM

It seems that Bakunawa was often featured on the Visayan deity hilts... but Bakunawa was not someone you wanted to invite over for dinner. It seems that the Visayans actually wanted to keep Bakunawa away (maybe even at times destroy him). It makes an interesting love/hate relationship. No?

Rick

1st February 2006, 07:09 PM

BSMStar

3rd February 2006, 06:46 PM

Rick,

I understand wanting to have the powers of this charming fellow on your sword and all, but since he has the reputation of being a "home wrecker" & then some... and you would really want to keep him away rather than to invite a visit... and his power resides in the sword... where do you keep your sword at night? If you catch my drift.

BSMStar

6th February 2006, 06:27 PM

These pictures have been "floating" around for a while...

Is it a dinosaur, a dragon, a miss-identified animal?

BSMStar

6th February 2006, 09:12 PM

Acambaro, Mexico

BSMStar

6th February 2006, 09:25 PM

Peru,

South America's Mr. "T"

BSMStar

6th February 2006, 09:27 PM

Egypt

BSMStar

7th February 2006, 01:13 AM

More from Peru (Incan)

Tim Simmons

11th May 2006, 11:35 AM

This used to be in my paternal grandparents house. I always admired it as a little boy. It is really just an old tourist thing but quite striking.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v426/jamhappy/naga.jpg

A South American Godzilla. This beats working.

fearn

11th May 2006, 03:58 PM

Hi BSMStar,

There are some studies out there about how fossils have been (allegedly) incorporated into ancient art, including some pictures on Greek vases, and legends of the bones of giants (Europe, N America, etc).

That said....how old do you think some of these pots are? There have been pics of dinosaurs around for almost a century now, and I'd be amazed if some forgers....excuse me, indigenous potters working for the faux-archeology/tourist trade...haven't been incorporating some of the images (say, from Charles Knight, or even godzilla) into the "ancient" pots that they sell here and there. Without a good provenance, it's probably better to be skeptical.

As for dragons being misidentified dinosaurs, I suspect they were, in some cases. Thing is, the term "dragon" encompasses a huge range of mythological critters that contain some sort of reptilian element. It can be informative to look at the real diversity in "dragons" especially in Medieval art. Aside from having a reptilian element, it's hard to say exactly what a dragon is: worm, snake, lizard, crocodile? Winged or wingless? Single or multiply-headed? Satan? a treasure guard? in the water, under the earth, flying, etc... you get the idea. It's more of a category than a species, I think.

F

BSMStar

11th May 2006, 09:03 PM

Hi Fearn,

Let me try to explain where I am coming from, my comments are not directed toward any one person (just the rambling of an old man). :D

I do not mean to imply there are not forgeries, or “relics” that were recently made to deceive. Any posted examples that I made were for the sake of stimulating conversation on the idea that … dragon lore is universal, it is found everywhere on the planet.

The modern explanations of dragon origins seem to come from the bias that dragon type animals can not exist, therefore let’s come up with a very ordinary explanation with something we do know about today. We can use the explanation that these people are not too bright, superstitious, misidentify everyday things, you know… place them in the category of those crazy people that see flying saucers and Bigfoot. On close examination, some of these crazy, not too bright, superstitious, misidentifying people happen to be Airline/Air Force Pilots and Biologist with PhDs (in other words, trained experts). Maybe, just maybe we should approach this with a scientific and open mind rather than a precluding bias. New species are commonly discovered and species thought to be extinct for millions of years have been found as well (the Coelacanth for example, thought to be extinct for the last 80 million years - “rediscovered” alive and well in 1938).

Back to the subject of dragons, unless we are willing to accept the idea that all people in all cultures that came before us are not too bright, just superstitious, and are misidentify everyday things… maybe… just maybe, it is worth asking the question how did this universal dragon lore come into being. Keep in mind, we are including cultures like the ancient Egyptians who build the structures on the Giza plateau, a feat with all of our knowledge and wisdom, can not duplicate today. These forgotten people were smart, very smart and their survival depended on their ability to identify what was in the world around them. Just to assume that they were not too bright, just superstitious, or they were misidentifying everyday things is to show either our ignorance or our arrogance. If this was a localized phenomenon, dragon myths would be easier to dismiss… a world wide phenomenon is a bit more difficult to ignore. Something happened that started it all. I hope no one misunderstands and thinks that I am saying the world is crawling with dragons and that they exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. I believe that dragons are worthy of further study, if for no other reason than we all seem to have dragons as a common link… sometime in our ancestral past, real or imagined… and they are still very powerful symbols today.

Personally, I would like to learn as much as I can about dragon myths. I believe they should be shared and not lost to time (and forgotten).

Now that you are hypnotized by this rambling... send all those dragon swords to me. :D :D :D

fearn

11th May 2006, 10:01 PM

Sure thing 'Star,

One non-existent dragon sword heading your way...

Seriously, though, there are a couple of ways to look at this, in no particular order.

1. There are no living dragons of any size (yes, there are lizards, fish, etc. that are "dragons," but nothing bigger than human). Since I'm one of the "enemy" (a PhD biologist), I'll point you to a little book called Why Big Fierce Animals are Rare. Basically, large carnivores need huge amounts of food, which means they need large home ranges to support that food, which means that they tend to be rare. We currently live in a world that has trouble supporting grizzly bears on land and whales in the water, because humans are consuming such a huge chunk of the available productivity on this planet. A creature such as a dragon (let alone a hypothetical fire-breathing dragon, which requires even more energy for the flames) would have a heck of a time a) surviving, and b) staying hidden while surviving. This is one of the biggest arguments against the existence of things such as the Loch Ness monster: Loch Ness has enough food to support maybe 1 or 2 dragon-sized carnivores. Unless said carnivores are immortal (unlikely), a population of monsters could not maintain itself in that lake.

2. People like telling tall tales, and dragons make a great story, especially for telling to an anthropologist or folklorist who thinks he's far superior to the person telling the story, and most especially if you're getting paid to tell the story...

3. Fossils do turn up. Back before humans were around, there were enormous predators, such as Tyrannosaurus. As I said in my previous post, there are a few archeologists who have been having fun trying to track down references to fossils in old myths and artwork, with some success.

4. For those who believe in kundalini and acupuncture meridians: the chi (prana, etc) energy is often symbolized as a snake, for instance in the doctor's symbol of a snake twined seven times around a rod. Some groups say that the earth has acupuncture lines as well, and these may be symbolized as giant snakes, aka dragons. This is probably New Agey, but it presents a different take on those stories of dragon-slayers, and it puts a different slant on feng shui.

5. Finally, there are natural phenomena such as rivers, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes. In places like China, these phenomena (especially storms and rivers) often are said to have dragon spirits, and no wonder. They periodically tear up the landscape and kill people. If you think of a dragon as a warning symbol (i.e. be careful or die horribly), it makes a lot of sense. We could use it today.

That by no means covers possible origins for dragons. Basically, I don'tthink those who believe in dragons are stupid, but I also don't think they are dull realists either. Why assume that the people who wrote "here be dragons" were describing real animals? They were just as good at making things up as we are.

Fearn

BSMStar

16th May 2006, 09:50 PM

Hi Fearn,

You are not one of the "enemy." And I cannot compete with a PhD.... I am a lowly Color Chemist.

Paradigms are our best friends and worst enemies; sometimes we get stuck in the “box.” There is a PhD Biologist that is currently looking for “Bigfoot,” although Bigfoot may not be the creature people think it is. Due to a personal experience (sighting), he is looking for evidence for Gigantopithecus, another animal that should not be around today, but may have surviving relatives that crossed over to North America.

Why assume that the people who wrote "here be dragons" were describing real animals? They were just as good at making things up as we are. Fearn

I would agree, if the legends were localized to a region. A worldwide series of myths with many similarities... is a bit more difficult to discount as being simple imagination. For example, if you were to look at the earth creation myths from all of these areas, they would have little or nothing in common. Then examine their description of dragons; it becomes a bit uncanny to their similarities... unless someone is willing to change “known” history and say that all of these people were in communication with each other (Asia, Africa, India, Europe, Americas, etc.) and shared or spread a myth 1500 to 4000 years ago... there is a mystery worthy of investigation. How did it all happen?

We may never know the answer... and I my be chalk full of blue berry muffins! My real goal was to collect a few of thest stories. But, I guess not.

BTW, did you send it Overnite or Second Day? :D :D :D

fearn

16th May 2006, 10:55 PM

I sent that non-existent sword by griffin-post. It's usually pretty quick, unless you have any iron in your house. In that case, they can't deliver.... :D

As for "uncanny similarities" in dragon descriptions, you might want to research that, especially in European illustrations. There's fairly enormous diversity in what constitutes a "dragon," even in Europe. Just for comparison, Bigfoots are pretty near identical: I mean, they only vary from 6-10' in height, with 3-5 toes, depending on what part of the country they're from (three toes in Louisiana, five toes in the pacific northwest). Compared to dragons, they're a single species. I know, I know, they can be duplicated by pranksters in ape suits, and Why Big Fierce Animals Are Rare says that probably couldn't exist, but still....if dragons are real, then those ape dudes have gotta exist. Really. :D :D :D

What has this got to do with swords, I wonder?

Fearn

BSMStar

17th May 2006, 08:40 PM

Hmmm. Griffin-post... I will have to check my Hogwart address (now you got me excited in anticipation). :D :D :D

Here is a hint, look at the "serpent" styles. Not one of my favorites though, but the shape does show up the most. Look at what St. George is slaying (Europe)... the feathered serpent of South America, the Nagas of Indonesia, Bakanawa (bent snake) of the Philippines, The Royal Dragons of China, keep looking and you will see them... Pick a continent and one of these will likely be staring back at you. We have just made a quick trip around the world. What are the odds all of these people (who supposedly) had no communication with each other, shared similar mythical creatures (I would not bet on those odds). But, as I said, I can be caulk full of blue berry muffins. Stories can change with each telling (oh yea, well my dragon flies... well my dragon breaths fire... well, to be honest, I was just a baby when the Dead Sea was sick so I don't remember, but the dragon was real scary I tell you). The real question is... were people seeing and identifying some anmimal as a dragon? Or, did dragons become a universal symbol in time forgotten? (And if so, how did it spread).

Remember, Gorillas were thought to be non-existent or mythical a one time. As far at that goes, the best minds thought the earth was flat. Paradigms can be our best friend and worst enemy. Albert Einstein once said "Imagination is more important than knowledge." He also said that “Insanity is to do the same thing over and over again, and to expect different results.” I believe he was suggesting to keep an open mind and to look at the world around us with “new eyes.” We should not get stuck in the same place everyday. It does not mean that we should just believe every tale that we hear… no, but we should truly investigate and see were the data leads us. Otherwise we would still be thinking that we can not travel any faster than 20 MPH, or it would kill us… or that we no longer need a Patent Office because everything that can be invented has been invented… and the Coelacanth died out 80 million years ago, so it cannot possibly exist today. These were yesterday’s paradigms. But honestly, I should not have to convince anyone of "open minded" science. By definition, science is not supposed to be biased.

The connection of dragons to swords is shown on the earlier supplied links, some of the dragons on swords are very stylized (you almost have to know it is a dragon) and some are easy to spot. They seem to be very important to many cultures! Personally, I like them all! :)

fearn

18th May 2006, 12:48 AM

Hi B,

I'll be happy to continue this discussion via PMs, but since this is a sword site, I'll stop my end of the discussion with this.

For anyone else reading this, wikipedia has a useful little article on dragonshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon
This is useful in that it talks about names and symbolism for dragons in a number of societies.

A counter argument for the physical existence of dragons is the idea of "an instinct for dragons," being proposed by an anthropologist. The basic idea is that dragons incorporate aspects of the major predators on primates (including human ancestors): snakes, eagles, and leopards. Here's the wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Instinct_for_Dragons

Again, pm me if you want to talk about cryptozoology.

F