Bali Hilts

[A. G. Maisey]

Here is my second attempt to drum up a little bit of interest in keris discussion.

Completely different to my posting of Grandfather photos, several rather nice Balinese hilts.

Perhaps somebody else may wish to add photos of Balinese hilts in their own collection?

[henri]

All right , that is my last buy . Some of you already look at these pics for opinion on material used for this ganesha Bali hilt . Lot of different suggestions but looks like we have sperm whale tooth .... or horn ?! Impossible to remove the selut to get a closed inside view unfortunately .

[VVV]

Nice thread.

Here are some of my favorites.

Michael

[Sajen]

Some more.

[Battara]

Here is my one and only Balinese hilt of ivory. I did the gold work since I could not find anyone here to do it.

[Montino Bourbon]

And now for something completely simple...

The wood is Pink Ivory wood, one of the rarest woods in the world, and incredibly dense. I took the wood to Bali and had a good carver make this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Nice hilt Montino, and nice material.

A few years ago I sent two pieces of pink ivory to Madura to be carved. Pink ivory is a bit like purpleheart, in that you must let it sit for a while after working it to let the colour come out. The gentleman who carved my pink ivory thought he knew better than I did, he ignored my instructions and lacquered it immediately after he carved it. My pink ivory hilts are mid brown. I'll clean the lacquer off one day when I get around to it.

Anyway, here's 3 more Bali hilts.

[Montino Bourbon]

What is the six-legged animal? More info please!

The accordion-pleated one at the bottom is wonderful too.

[David]

What is the six-legged animal? More info please!
Montino, that is know as kocet-kocetan. Here is a good informational thread on them.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5909&highlight=kocet-kocetan

[David]

I've posted these before in our "Figural" thread, but for the sake of grouping here are a couple of my Bali hilts. Nothing extraordinary, but they hold some personality for me. :)

[Marcokeris]

Some of mine

[rasjid]

Two made by IB Pastika, all material is made from moose horn / elk.
Once polished the old moose material is as good as ivory. Now adays plenty in Bali.

[David]

Once polished the old moose material is as good as ivory.
hmmm...i'm not sure i understand what that means. As good as ivory in what way? :)
Beautiful carvings BTW.

[Jean]

Will the colour and structure of moose antler remain stable or reach a nice patinated aspect with time or not? If yes, it is indeed an excellent substitute to ivory. However I have noticed traces of uneven shades on some pieces made from moose antler and posted on Ebay.
These carvings are very fine but "too much" for my taste :)
Regards

[David]

Will the colour and structure of moose antler remain stable or reach a nice patinated aspect with time or not? If yes, it is indeed an excellent substitute to ivory. However I have noticed traces of uneven shades on some pieces made from moose antler and posted on Ebay.
These carvings are very fine but "too much" for my taste :)
Regards
As a "substitute" for ivory to stem the slaughter of elephants for that valuable material, i agree. I just can't see this material as being "as good as" ivory. It doesn't have the depth and character of that material (at least not in any example i have seen) and it won't no matter how long it ages. :shrug:
They are indeed perhaps a bit too fine for some tastes, but i do really like the detail in the kocet-kocetan hilt. :)

[rasjid]

yes David, I mean as substitute, if done properly the finish also smooth similar to ivory material. Ivory still give you better shine and harder material. The Moose material is finer than antler horn and I do have sample from bones (including giraffe bone for my knives), antler horn and ivory.
so, may be back to personal taste..thanks

[rasjid]

Some more....

Can someone tell me the story or any reason that this Bali handle in the old days they use human hair? The owner's hair or some one else's?
Thanks in advance

[David]

Nice cekak redut (accordian stye) example you show her Rasjid.
On the hair, are you sure the hair on your example is human? I have one of these hilts and the hair just seems too coarse to be human. But i can think of numerous reasons from a magickal perspective why using one's own hair in this context would be effective in strengthening the bond between owner and weapon. :shrug:

[VVV]

Usually the hair on these Balinese hilts are from horse's hair.
However, I have heard that human hair quite often was used to fasten the hilt to the pesi...

Michael

[David]

Usually the hair on these Balinese hilts are from horse's hair.
However, I have heard that human hair quite often was used to fasten the hilt to the pesi...

Michael
Yes Michael, i have encountered this, but on Javanese keris only. Do you know if it was a practice outside of Jawa?

[Sajen]

Variations in style, age and material.

[Sajen]

Bondolan.

[Sajen]

Yes Michael, i have encountered this, but on Javanese keris only. Do you know if it was a practice outside of Jawa?

Have found some years ago a Bali keris where the hilt was attached with hair. And have heard that human hair was used by this cenangan hilts sometimes but normally was used horse hair.

[rasjid]

David, I'm not saying my hilt is using human hair, just heard story about it. I'm not keen to do some testing anyway :). Looks like many other stories around it.

The cekah / cekahan solas is made from black wood and solas is sebelas ( eleven). I believe Alan's is 23 cuts or more? Havent count it yet.

[A. G. Maisey]

Three more, whale's teeth.

Teeth bought in Sydney in 1970's, salvaged from the sea bed rubbish dump of a whaling station in Western Australia. The teeth were taken to Bali and carved there. I did not order specific motifs, and left this to the carver.

[rasjid]

Just in case someone surprise that these one are newly made...

[Jean]

Three more, whale's teeth.

Teeth bought in Sydney in 1970's, salvaged from the sea bed rubbish dump of a whaling station in Western Australia. The teeth were taken to Bali and carved there. I did not order specific motifs, and left this to the carver.

Hi Alan,
Very nice specimens of hilts made from marine ivory! How long ago were they made and who was the maker if you agree to tell us?
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

They were done about 3 or 4 years ago.

I do not know who carved them.

Jean, I have found that to get the best possible result from ordered work, at the best possible price, in Jawa and Bali it is best to go through a third party.

Going back 20 or 30 years I used to deal directly with craftsmen, and this works fine if you can be there while the job is being done. You can visit daily, supervise, create a socially binding relationship and at the end of the day you can finish up with a satisfactory result.

However, when you deal directly with a craftsman, place the order and then come back 6 or 12 months later to collect it you are setting yourself up for every possible variation of disappointment, failure and rip-off.

The way to get a good result on the long term order basis is to form a solid business link with a reliable third party:- business people are motivated by money; artists are motivated by emotion and personal contact.

However, if you use an agent to place and manage your order, you often do not know exactly who did the work.

In Solo I mostly know who the craftsman is who did the work, exactly what his personal situation is, and exactly what he charged for it.

In Bali I know nothing, except how to get the best possible finished product.

[rasjid]

Agreed Alan, from personal experience any where in the world would be similar situation...

[Battara]

Alan, great carvings - reminiscent of older work IMHO.

2 questions:


If I were to send a piece to get gold Achenese mounts, should I do what you did in the case with Bali?

Do Balinese ivory keris hilts use mounts made of silver, or would gold also work?

[A. G. Maisey]

Battara, I'm sorry, but I must reply to these questions with a PM.

Edit regarding metal.

In respect of gold or silver. Gold is always better. Culturally gold is a substance of respect. In traditional Javanese and Balinese value systems silver is really no more highly prized than brass or copper --- it may be more expensive, but traditional Javanese people would probably prefer nicely polished copper or brass to silver. Its all about the visual impact. Same reason royal ornamental objects---keris and other--- will often use glass and pastes instead of natural gemstones.

Modern values are different, very high quality keris dress is now more often done in silver than in any other material, but the cultural roots dictate gold. I know a number of very, very traditional Javanese people, people who come from rural backgrounds or working class backgrounds. These people do not value silver at all, for one of these women to wear silver jewellery is a certain indicator that she cannot afford gold, so she would prefer to wear brass or copper that has been polished and possibly lacquered. Any spare money these people have is almost invariably saved as physical gold.

On the other hand, people of the modern generation in Jawa and Bali have to a large extent adopted western values, and for them, high quality work is best done in silver if they cannot afford gold.