Balinese/Lombok pedang

[Maurice]

Yesterday I received my latest find!

It's a very interesting pedang, as you can see for yourself on the images....

It has great patina and a very attractive blade, full of Quran verses and other decorations, inlaid in silver at both sides and the spine.


If someone would dare trying to translate the text on the blade, I will upload some close ups...

Maurice

[kronckew]

:eek: ooh! them fullers are gorgeous!

[kai]

If someone would dare trying to translate the text on the blade, I will upload some close ups...
Come on, Maurice, post'em close-ups! :)

Left side of the blade is orientated correctly (sequence right to left, i.e. base of blade to tip).

The right side is upside down - just flip it over (after doing the left side pics) and again go from the base of the blade towards the tip...

[Maurice]

Come on, Maurice, post'em close-ups! :)


OK, I'm glad you can give me the translation than!
:D

[Maurice]

Left:

[Maurice]

Right:

[Maurice]

Spine:

[VVV]

Superb find!!!

Could you take a picture of the hilt from the side facing down (along the edge)?
It might be the rarer Garuda-variation, instead of the regular makara/flower bud.

Michael

[kai]

Congrats, Maurice, nice score!

Got the blade "washed" recently? It looks very dark while the inlay is shiny; I'd give the silver on the hilt and scabbard a gentle polish, too.

These pedang come from all over the archipelago - mostly along the arc from Sumatra to Sumbawa with a bit of Banjar/etc. thrown in. Given the Islamic script, I guess we can exclude Bali as the origin of this piece.

Hopefully the inscription will give us some clues... From what I can glean from the pics, the inlay looks a bit crude though. And the inlay is very intact. I'd posit that the inlay got added later but you get a much better idea from handling it up and close - what can you read from the blade, workmanship, patina, etc.?

Regards,
Kai

[Maurice]

Superb find!!!

Could you take a picture of the hilt from the side facing down (along the edge)?
It might be the rarer Garuda-variation, instead of the regular makara/flower bud.

Michael

I hope this image will do for now?
Just made it with my cellphone....

Maurice

[Maurice]

Congrats, Maurice, nice score!

Got the blade "washed" recently?It looks very dark while the inlay is shiny; I'd give the silver on the hilt and scabbard a gentle polish, too.

These pedang come from all over the archipelago - mostly along the arc from Sumatra to Sumbawa with a bit of Banjar/etc. thrown in. Given the Islamic script, I guess we can exclude Bali as the origin of this piece.

Hopefully the inscription will give us some clues... From what I can glean from the pics, the inlay looks a bit crude though. And the inlay is very intact. I'd posit that the inlay got added later but you get a much better idea from handling it up and close - what can you read from the blade, workmanship, patina, etc.?

Regards,
Kai

Kai, the blade had not been washed recently. You can see the lamination when having a close look to the blade. It also smells not "washed", and it's just the colour I've seen on old blades, which turn out black from dirt or whatsoever...
I recently cleaned a Javanese sword with brass inlay. You could hardly see the brass inlay before. But after giving it a good rub with some dishsoap, the brass inlay looks like new, but the blade is still very black. No matter how hard I rub, it will stay black!
If you mean this with "washed" I think that's what happened.

The inlay is far from crude, but probably you think so because of the close ups. I never have seen a better inlay on these kind of swords.
It looks like it was done with a finewriter, but it isn't. When looking at the images of the whole blade you can see how smooth it looks, and not crude as done recently.
The inlay like this, is done the way it was occurring on other 19th century blades.
Also when you look on the last image of #5, you can see a part which isn't rubbed as good as the other part of the blade.

Ofcourse I agree the inlay could be recenter as the sword, but it's very good craftmanship and also done a long, long time ago..

About the silver, I leave it as it is. Love the patina more as the shiny silverwork.. :0

Sometimes you've got to have it in hands. This one is such piece you can't show it on images. You have to see and feel it.
The blade is very smoothly forged, high quality. Also the inlay is very good work, and therefore it's all there and not (partly) gone allready (as seen on quality inlay of old blades). This in combination with an enormous patina on the handle (which I've not seen often on these pedangs, probably because people cleaning the silverwork and decide to clean the whole handle instead?), tells me I need to keep this one in my own collection, though it isn't Borneo and I'm not attracted to these kind of pedangs normally!

Maurice

[CharlesS]

Excellent craftsmanship on this sort of pedang, with a gorgeous blade. The dark looks more to be patina than 'a wash', though as Kai suggested, I have seen these washed to highlight the inlay.

If I were a betting man I would say the inlay was done within the last 50 years and far younger then the sword. The Arabic makes it somehow seem Sumatran to me, but of course it could have originated in so many places as these styles were supremely popular.

Congrats on a truly nice pick up!

Please see:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4682&highlight=sumatran+swords

[Maurice]

Excellent craftsmanship on this sort of pedang, with a gorgeous blade. The dark looks more to be patina than 'a wash', though as Kai suggested, I have seen these washed to highlight the inlay.

If I were a betting man I would say the inlay was done within the last 50 years and far younger then the sword. The Arabic makes it somehow seem Sumatran to me, but of course it could have originated in so many places as these styles were supremely popular.

Congrats on a truly nice pick up!

Please see:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4682&highlight=sumatran+swords

Yes, but not in this case. This one hasn't been washed. It's definately patina.
Beneath the surface you can see a very nice pattern in the blade, but it's hard to get it on camera. And I decided to leave the piece as it is, without any cleaning whatsoever.

Why do you think it's 50 years ago done? (just curious).
I think it would be done much rougher if it was only 50 years ago.
But who knows, maybe we get an translation with a date or maybe it says "made in Taiwan" :-)
Till than I believe it's much more older, though not as old as the blade.

I'm allowed to post next image. It's from a sikin panjang. Look at the craftmanship. Definately 19th century, but it looks "rough" also. But this is because it's done as thin and delicately as the inlay in my pedang.
I would like to see the inlay craftmanship in other blades which should be 19th century or older, just to see the difference (but than I want examples with as delicately inlay as the pedang).

Ofcourse I knew your thread: Very nice pieces Charles: I specially like pedang 2 and 6.

Maurice

[VVV]

I hope this image will do for now?
Just made it with my cellphone....

Maurice

Nope, I meant lower (from the ferrule and up).

Michael

PS It's from Lombok, not Sumatra.

[Maurice]

Nope, I meant lower (from the ferrule and up).

Michael

PS It's from Lombok, not Sumatra.

Oh yes,....
Again with my celphone.

Thank you for noticing it's Lombok.

Maurice

[CharlesS]

VVV,

I am curious what about this piece assures its origin is from Lombok? Are there characteristics of it that make that a definite?

[David]

VVV,

I am curious what about this piece assures its origin is from Lombok? Are there characteristics of it that make that a definite?
I am also curious what the indicators are for the origin of this piece. How would a similar pedang from Sumatra differ? It's not that i doubt Michael, but certainly it is more helpful for future considerations if we can all come to an understanding of what these indicators actually are. :)
If indeed these inlays are Islamic text i would agree that Bali is unlikely while Lombok is still a possibility. Thought ethnically diverse it does seem that a small majority of the inhabitants are indeed Muslim.
In any case a very nice sword. :)

[Battara]

I am with Charles in thinking this may be from Sumatra due to the Arabic. Several times "Allah" is present, perhaps in some bismallah or in Qur'anic verse. It would be better that an Arabic reader try to render some type of translation. I don't think it is jawi (though I could be wrong).

[Jonno]

Nice item Maurice!

My opinion, Sumatra. For sure.
The inlay can be done ​​later, but seems to be old.
(Islamic text)

John

[VVV]

Most important, the original collection tag said Lombok on it. ;-)
Otherwise, the hilt is more square than the ones usually seen from Sumatra (but often seen on Lombok) and the blade has fullers. On Lombok the Sasak are Muslim.

If you look at the lower part of the hilt there is a beak and a bird face (Garuda). I suspect that this also is a Lombok-feature.
Maybe Maurice can bring it out better with new pictures?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Do we know when it was originally collected in Lombok?

[Jonno]

Most important, the original collection tag said Lombok on it. ;-)
Otherwise, the hilt is more square than the ones usually seen from Sumatra (but often seen on Lombok) and the blade has fullers. On Lombok the Sasak are Muslim.

If you look at the lower part of the hilt there is a beak and a bird face (Garuda). I suspect that this also is a Lombok-feature.
Maybe Maurice can bring it out better with new pictures?

Michael

I think you're right michael.
Perhaps the text-inlay done after the Dutch intervention in 1894.

[CharlesS]

I am not necessarily saying it's Sumatran, I just didn't understand why it had to be Lombok, and I must have missed anything about a tag.

Good observations.

[Maurice]

Most important, the original collection tag said Lombok on it. ;-)

If you look at the lower part of the hilt there is a beak and a bird face (Garuda). I suspect that this also is a Lombok-feature.
Maybe Maurice can bring it out better with new pictures?


Yes Michael, that's right! :-)

I will make some decent pictures within the next few days of the handle.

It has floral leaf motifs all over, but looking at the shape there's indeed some kind of mouth visible and it looks like I can see some kind of nose? (just like a macara, only instead of the upper jaw it's tog an elobarated lower jaw).
But maybe it's just my imagination and I see the wrong presentation in it.

Also I looks that there's a bit in the front missing. But if so very long time ago as it has the same patina. But it might be that it's all intact and it meant carved like this...

Maurice

[Maurice]

I think you're right michael.
Perhaps the text-inlay done after the Dutch intervention in 1894.

Hi John,

Thanks for your approval of depicting the inlay of the sikin panjang!
Let's hope we find somebody who can tell us more about the text....

Maurice

[Maurice]

Do we know when it was originally collected in Lombok?

Unfortunately I don't know anything about it or it's provenance...

[Maurice]

I am not necessarily saying it's Sumatran, I just didn't understand why it had to be Lombok, and I must have missed anything about a tag.

Good observations.

Michael's remark about the tag was meant like a little joke.
There was a tag saying Lombok on it, but it was a recent one so I detached it.

Maurice

[Spunjer]

yowza!!! heck of pedang, bro! nice catch!!! would be interested at the translation on this pedang

[Maurice]

yowza!!! heck of pedang, bro! nice catch!!! would be interested at the translation on this pedang

Thanks Ron,

Still waiting if here's somebody who would like to translate it for us...

Maurice

[CharlesS]

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

[David]

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.
^^^ Yeah, what he said. It is my hope that these forums are a learning experience and while these are not exactly the center of my collecting experience i have a great interest with other weapons of the area and would love to understand what the difference are between Sumatran and Lombak versions of these pedangs. Michael, if you are able to put up comparative photos of hilts from these distinct origins that would be awesome, thanks. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

In the 1950's these swords were usually given by collectors and British dealers as either "Java" or "Malaya".

I do not believe that either of these attributions were necessarily correct, but I think probably most people accepted this at the time.

In recent years I think most collectors attribute this sword type to Sumatera, I don't know exactly where in Sumatera, but I've read a Palembang attribution somewhere.

In this Forum I have seen attributions of Lombok, and other places in the Indonesian Archipelago.

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

If anybody ever reaches the position of being able to give a verifiable point of geographic origin for this type of sword, as distinct from an opinion, I think it might be possible that we find the style originating in Sumatera and travelling as items of trade to other areas within the Archipelago. This would be pretty recent trade I think, perhaps within the last 200 years. These are very attractive swords and would very probably have been appreciated by many people across the Archipelago.

By "geographic point of origin" my meaning is that the sword was made in an identifiable place and used or worn there.

In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

[VVV]

I am also of the opinion that this kind of Pedang originated around Palembang. A case in point is that of those found in museums most often they have been collected in expeditions from that region. They are also found in other areas, most often Lombok but also in coastal South Borneo (among the Malays) and in Peninsular Malaysia. Local production and variations of a popular blade is a phenomenon also found for other weapons of this region.

To not the let this thread drift too far away I would prefer that Maurice first gets his translation, and we discuss the age and purpose of adding Qur'anic quotes on the blade.
Maybe after that we can add other reference pictures and discuss hilt and blade variations among the different regions.

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, my remarks on calligraphic enhancement of blades is directed only at the particular type of calligraphic enhancement that we can see on this blade.

I believe most of us would be aware that it was not unusual for blades to bear other calligraphic enhancements that date from much earlier periods and which were placed on the blades for purposes other than the one I have mentioned.

However, I will make this further comment. Over the years I have often referred these blades to people I know in Solo for translation. One of these people is a very learned man who is able to read a number of different script variations. It is seldom that the inscriptions found on blades that I have personally handled are written accurately, in that sometimes the actual quotation will be wrong, at at other times the letters used to write the quotation will be formed in a way that makes a nonsense of what has been intended to be written. Sometimes the person to whom I have turned for assistance is able to guess what has been intended, at other times the opinion is that whoever put the inscription on the blade did not really know how to write and was putting on symbols that simply looked like letters to somebody who also could not read.

As to how a discussion in this Forum progresses, perhaps I am in error, but I have been under the impression that those of us who contribute to a discussion may contribute as we see fit, not wait until we are given some oblique cue that lets us know we are now permitted to say that which we wish to say.

I do most sincerely hope that Maurice will receive an accurate translation of the letters on his blade, but I do not believe that it is in anybody's best interests for us to sit on our keyboards and wait until this event occurs.

Regarding production of these swords in places other than original point of origin, yes, it is entirely possible that the style could be produced in places other than the place where it originated, but in the identification of other places where such swords might have been made I feel it might be quite difficult at this point in time to nail down a variation to a particular location. It is entirely possible that all apparent stylistic variation could in fact be quality variation, and the swords may all have been manufactured in the same area by different people.

I've spent a bit of time going through my references and quite frankly I cannot find very much at all on this particular type of sword. I would welcome the identification of reliable references by those who are better informed than I in respect of these particular swords.

[VVV]

Alan,

Your comments on talismanic writing etc. is indeed a well known and quite universal phenomenon both in the Muslim (Arabic) as well as the Catholic (Latin) periphery. Quite often the one actually making the inlay was not also a highly learned religious scholar.
My comment on in what order to answer all the different questions brought up in this thread is of course only how I prefer to respond to it myself (out of respect for Maurice's original question that started this thread) and only relevant for how I choose to participate in this discussion.

Michael

[Sajen]

Hi Maurice,

first, sorry about my late reply to your very interesting pedang. A shame that the handle is broken. Here some of my thoughts about it. I also think that it is from Lombok, me was told in Indonesia that this pedang with this type of handle coming from Lombok, have also a look to this thread, special #16: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1543&highlight=pedang. In the beginning of the 90ties last century you can find a lot of this pedangs in Bali antique shops and every time it was told they are from Lombok. Of course this isn't a guarantee that it is indeed like this. :shrug:
I am with you that the inlays are done well, this could be a indication that they are old. I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example. But what I remember well, the blade was like yours very black stained. This is IMHO done to highlight the silver inlays. So I don't think that the black surface is old patina. This could be done in old times but as well recently. Like Alan I have seen blades with such inlays where I have been sure that this inlays are added for a better selling-price purpose but on the other hand I think to have seen blades with inlays which have been early collected but can't remember where.

Sorry that I am not able to give you new informations.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

Maurice,

Just for clarity because forums and emails carry no connotation and can be easily misinterpreted...like I did not understand that MM was joking about the tag!...I have no problem with anything that has been said about the sword, but if there are specific characteristics that make this a "for sure" Lombok made piece, of course I want to learn about them. I think I see what VVV is getting at about a more "squared" appearance, but I think we would need more complete pics and perhaps side-by-side examples.

Charles, ofcourse Michael was joking about that, as you could see in the wink at the end of it ( ;-) ).
Here you see the photo which Michael was referring to, and indeed mentioned Lombok in it, though it was a recent tag for sure...

I also would like to know more about the differences of the handles, but this is the only one I have, so I have no comparison to post, only what everyone could see in the former threads..

[Maurice]

My area of confusion is this:- what is the connection between Lombok and some unidentified location in Sumatera? Why Sumatera and then the jump across Jawa and Bali to Lombok? I might be missing something here, but I can find neither logical cause nor sociological connection for this very wide placement of the same style of sword.

One connection could be the Dutch, who were present and travelling between the Indonesian archipellago isles in very early days and for long time, and also often there were native people with them on their travels to other islands. From here we allready would have a link, and therefore a connection of intercultural "pollination" and "copying" of for instance swords....



In respect of the sword that generated this thread, I have often seen this type of calligraphic ornamentation, and mock calligraphic ornamentation, on various types of Indonesian weapons. Inlay of this type has most often been done very recently with the sole purpose of increasing the commercial value of an otherwise unremarkable item. The two places where I know this "enhancement" to be carried out now and in the past are Surabaya and Jogjakarta, but it is undoubtedly done in other places also.

Therefore we need an explanation of the text by somebody.
From there we could say more about it. If somebody would use a "mock calligraphic ornamentation", I don't think it would be done so intensive and so fine as on this pedang.
If you have seen often "this type of calligraphic ornamentations" as you mentions, I would like you to post some images here for comparison if possible.
I also have images from pedangs (of other collections, and therefore not propriate to post here), of which I'm sure it's definately not as old and finely done as mine. Also it's done much more crudely, and not so intensively.
In comparison with the one in this thread, I never have seen a pedang ornamented as labour-intensive and decoratively done as this one. So I doubt it's only supposed to be a "mock calligraphy".
But this is only from my common sense and I would love to know more and it might be when we have a translation...

Thanks for your input!

Maurice

[Maurice]

Most important, the original collection tag said Lombok on it. ;-)
Otherwise, the hilt is more square than the ones usually seen from Sumatra (but often seen on Lombok) and the blade has fullers. On Lombok the Sasak are Muslim.

If you look at the lower part of the hilt there is a beak and a bird face (Garuda). I suspect that this also is a Lombok-feature.
Maybe Maurice can bring it out better with new pictures?

Michael

Finally found some time of taking some pictures Michael!
Indeed I now see a kind of bird in it, with a large crest on it's head (which I thought would be the beak in the first instance.

I also added an image (the bottom one) of the backside of the handle above the silver sleeve.

Here the images!

Maurice

[Maurice]

A shame that the handle is broken.

Hi Detlef, I don't mind. Indeed a pity, but it happend a very long time ago considering the patination, which is the same as the rest of the handle.
And old breakoffs make antique blades have more character..... :-)


Here some of my thoughts about it. I also think that it is from Lombok, me was told in Indonesia that this pedang with this type of handle coming from Lombok, have also a look to this thread, special #16: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1543&highlight=pedang. In the beginning of the 90ties last century you can find a lot of this pedangs in Bali antique shops and every time it was told they are from Lombok. Of course this isn't a guarantee that it is indeed like this. :shrug:

Thank you for sharing this phenomenom.
Though I would rather be more happy to have more information from old articles, images, drawings etc. etc., as from people selling stuff in "antique shops"...
Till now I don't have an old article yet which describes more about these pedangs and their origin. And we might never find one as there isn't one?
Or maybe something will show up which would surprise us and give a more better insight here.
What I did learn in the years of collecting till now, is to have a very good nose of "old patina". And this one has very fine glossy patina, and the blade is also of a high quality (as mentioned very difficult to show on pictures).
But I would love to compare different kind (recent and old) inlay with eachother.


I am with you that the inlays are done well, this could be a indication that they are old. I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example. But what I remember well, the blade was like yours very black stained. This is IMHO done to highlight the silver inlays. So I don't think that the black surface is old patina. This could be done in old times but as well recently. Like Alan I have seen blades with such inlays where I have been sure that this inlays are added for a better selling-price purpose but on the other hand I think to have seen blades with inlays which have been early collected but can't remember where.

I'm sure this happened. But I need comparison images of swords with "recent inlays" and swords which are early collected with "old inlays". This to have a close research on them if I've the right feeling or I'm hitting it wrong.
So if you find the blades with old inlays and early collected, I would be thankfull if you post them here.

Maurice

[A. G. Maisey]

Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent.

This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences.

It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify.

1)---I do not doubt that this type of sword can be found in many places throughout the Indonesian Archipelago.

2)---I do not doubt that it can be found in Lombok, even though there seems to be some evidence for its origin and existence in Southern Sumatera.

3)---My use of the phrase:- "my area of confusion" means exactly what it says, it not a polite way of casting doubt on anything; I am confused by the existence of this style of sword in both Southern Sumatera and Lombok.
Why?
Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century.
The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people.

I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion.
Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate.

I do hope that the above adequately clarifies what I meant in my previous post.

To respond to your comments, Maurice.

It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's.

It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done.


Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about.

I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent.

Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century.


I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.

[Maurice]

Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent.
This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences.
It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify.

I agree concerning the English language. For me it's also not that simple and often I need a translationprogramm on my computer, just as many of us.
The misreading, however, could also happen to native speakers of English mutually, as sometimes the accent or tone could be interpretated different, as if one should talk to eachother face to face and you can see the expressions and accents in combination with the bodylanguage, which is lacking in a forum.
I do appreciate you're trying to clarify some misunderstandings, which are certainly slipped in accidentally.




Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century.
The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people.

You're right that Lombok was not interesting for the Dutch in the early VOC times, and that the interferences began in times of the "betrayel of Lombok", in 1894.
Though the Dutch surely were present often in the fairways (if that's the correct word) near Lombok.
Probably I shouldn't brought that up in my earlier comment, as it indeed seems to be not relevant here in the discussion of the sword (pedang) discussed here.
If you look at it the way you explained here, I now understand there's no connection known between the Sumatran people and the Sasak people whatso ever in history.




I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion.
Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate.

It seems that these kind of swords, as Michael allready mentioned in a previous comment, show up in several area's.
This without knowing what all the connections could be between those area's, and why this partically sword shows up in such many different places.
For instance Banks mentions a similar one in an article, where he mentioned it to be used by Sea dayaks, and he named it in that article "Senangkas".

Could you explain to me who "Djelengga" is?
Forgive my ignorance, but when searching in this forum, I noticed only you mentioned this man a few times, and at any time there's no forummember who asked you who he is.
Probably they all know who he is, and I somehow am not familiar with him, so a short explanation would help for me.



It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's.

I know about the particular markets you're referring. I've seen their "work" for hours on the tv, as they're acquaintances of a friendcollector of mine who hang out with them a couple of times a year.
And I appreciate you're experience and it's of great value sharing it in this thread.
Concerning the pedang we're discussing here, there's a part which still has the old patina over the silverwork bedause it probably wasn't cleaned that well on that area as on the rest of the blade, as I mentioned before. And for my experiences with cleaning mandau blades with lots of silver or brass inlay, I know that I can clean it easily till the brass and silverwork shine like new, and the blade itself is showing the same patination as before, just by using a dishsoap and a scourer.



It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done.

I know about embellishment of stuff which doesn't sell. But writing this sword down as badly damaged and extremely difficult to find a buyer for, sounds very strange to me. But again, everybody could have his own oppinion of collecting and I respect that in this forum!
I think that here we have the clear difference between keris collectors and the tribal sword collectors in general.
For a keris collector things have to be perfect, and they don't mind throwing away old dresses of kerisses and change them for new ones made on the one of the markets you mentioned above. Also handles from same regions are changing, just to make it more beautifull and it almost seemed to be accepted by most of the keris collectors.
For antique tribal sword collectors like me, we see beauty in old swords, preferably in original condition. When speaking for myself I like the old damages, IF they are old and not recently made by imprudence by previous owners.
According the pedang here in question: For example there had been mentioned these were brought a sackfull by Lombok dealers in Detlefs comment (he refers to a another vikingswordforum link).
Why wheren't those swords heavily decorated with texts, or where they? Because they look prettier as this one? I really don't understand that, to make such efforts of labour, if there were probably numerous in the antiqueshops in certain times. Is this one so bad that they needed to write it full from all sides with texts to make it salable?
With this particular sword it doesn't make sense to me at all, when comparing it with other pedangs I've seen which look a lot worse and were not written down with all kind of decorations and/or texts.
My opinion is that this sword with it's beautifully carved handle, and a beautifully smooth blade with two nice fullers didn't need to get written such extensively to get sold or wanted.
But again, that's mine opinion.




Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about.
I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent.

OK, I can understand that as they are not your swords, and it would be inpropriate to post images here.
But what I think is very strange here is that nobody is able to depict images of swords with the same comparitively inlay, even on other swords as pedangs.
I would say if it was done on the Javanese markets since at least the 1950's to get them better salable, there would be numerous of these and there would be somebody who could attach images here, wouldn't it?
Till I've not seen any images to compare them, I will not take it for granted this is probably very recent work. That's the nature of the beast (if it's translated correctly from a Dutch saying).
And don't get me wrong, I don't doubt you're knowledge Alan. But I also don't doubt my own findings, and I need proofs from articles, museums, comparison pieces to make my own "common sense" result...



Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century.

Alan, don't apologize, as everybody has his own opinion and everybody is free to discuss here, within the forum rules.
Also I really appreciate that, with your experience during all those years of studying and collecting kerisses, you're involved in this thread and share your findings.
I know a lot of "senior" collectors, and some of them collect and study even much longer as 30 years and are more the "quiet" collectors, and not participating on forums, though they are lurking once in a while.
With this group I have lots of very nice contact, and we discuss swords through email, or when I visit them a few times a year we go through their collection, which is great to exchange knowledge and compare pieces with eachother.
Most of the swords they collect have great provenance, or were bought in the very early days from people who inherited the pieces from relatives who directly brought them back as war trophies from concerning area.
Those are the swords to research (besides provenanced museumpieces) and not the ones that are/were sold in Indonesian antiqueshops (forgive me if I am offending somebody here, but this is my opinion).
Also as a "non professional", and a relatively young collector, I may be proud to say that I learned a lot in short time, and did some comprehensive research projects, which I did with help of Dutch museums and its curators, and the senior collectors/researchers I mentioned.



I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.

Alan, feel free to discuss!
We're all here to learn from eachother.
In discussions all opinions are never equal, otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion and nothing will be learnt.
I just am not really easy to convince as long as I can easily disprove statements made without images, old articles or references to old provenanced pieces! I guess that's a good quality being a serious collector. :rolleyes:

Rg,
Maurice

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Maurice,

I nice piece and as discussed, I am happy you won it, it was meant to be. I'll share the other one in time.

Tonight I have little time for writing but wish to note that Adni of MAG notes these as "klewang from the island of Lombok", perhaps an email to Adni may reveal some further information.
All but a few of my books are now in storage along with most of the family home contents...but what does Buttin mention about these swords?

Gavin

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your further comments Maurice.

"Djelengga" was Ir. H. Lalu Djelengga. He is now deceased. He authored "Keris di Lombok", published by Yayasan Pusaka Selaparang, it is out of print, and probably not able to be obtained, but you might find somebody with a photocopy for sale. This is the best reference for keris and other weapons from Lombok.

The 30 years I mentioned is the approximate time I have been involved in the keris trade in Jawa. My tuition by Empu Suparman began as near as I can recall, in 1982, and I had been buying in Indonesia long before that and selling internationally since 1978. Empu Suparman had dealt in keris and other traditional weapons, from the late 1940's, long before he was made a kraton empu. My actual study of keris and Javanese art, history and culture began when I was about 13 or 14, my collecting interest began when I was about 12, but I first came into contact with keris much earlier than that. I am now 72.

Maurice, I appreciate your invitation to continue discussion of this sword, but I will withdraw from discussion. I believe you will be much happier with comments from people other than myself, and apart from that, there is much I could say that I am duty bound not to say--- particularly in an internet discussion group that is open to everybody in the whole world to read.

Anything I might be able to add to what I have already said would serve no purpose at all.

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

OK, I'm glad you can give me the translation than! :D
I was going to suggest "Made in China" but you beat me to it. :p

Sorry for deserting this thread - going to add more soon.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

You can see the lamination when having a close look to the blade.
Yup, I did saw those laminations - looks promising indeed! This blade is certainly nice - not sure how likely it was during the 19th century to add extensive scripture to an intricately (non-random) pattern-welded blade though...

My own rule of thumb is that the more script is found on any blade, the more suspicious I should be.


The inlay is far from crude, but probably you think so because of the close ups. I never have seen a better inlay on these kind of swords.
I agree that I've seen much worse examples which were obviously modern. However, with low wages in Indonesia even quality work is not neccessarily an indication for something being genuine/antique.

Just for example: In this case, I'd have expected nicer floral decorations. Or none if space were too limited.

I hope we'll compilate more inlaid pieces for comparision here (haven't found any genuine antique example of sword blades with such extensive scripture yet; did not do a comprehensive search though).


The inlay like this, is done the way it was occurring on other 19th century blades.
There were obviously different techniques utilized (cp. John's sikin panjang blade), so comparision of quality and possibly estimating age would need to account for several variables.


Sometimes you've got to have it in hands. This one is such piece you can't show it on images. You have to see and feel it.
Yup, I did stipulate this already.


This in combination with an enormous patina on the handle (which I've not seen often on these pedangs, probably because people cleaning the silverwork and decide to clean the whole handle instead?)
The horn pommel does seem to have really good age; I don't think real patina is much affected by repeated gentle cleaning. I believe that regular handling does help to keep the horn "alive" rather than drying out too much in storage, especially in low humidity.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I have had such a pedang with inlays as well (it's long time sold already), when i have bought it I was sure that the inlays are old, later I get doubts but frankly said the inlays weren't fine like by your example.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

Though I would rather be more happy to have more information from old articles, images, drawings etc. etc., as from people selling stuff in "antique shops"...
Till now I don't have an old article yet which describes more about these pedangs and their origin. And we might never find one as there isn't one?
Well, the only really old source which readily comes to mind is Schmeltz (1890; attached). And Fischer has it in the catalog for South Sumatra (1918).

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Here's my only pedang with (limited) inlay. Just to get a bit of diversity in, not necessarily the pinnacle of quality though. ;)

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Well, this is just my opinion, but i would also think that these inscriptions are relative recent to the blade. The blade itself does seem to be old as does the rest of the ensemble. I do like those fullers. There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the patina. Obviously there is some patina here, but there is also a lot of dirt. Dirt is not patina. Sliver can be cleaned up without removing patina. Wood and horn can be revitalized without removing patina.
I have never seen a blade from this areas with this extent of writing on the blade that wasn't either obviously recent or at least suspicious. I am sorry that i have no examples to show as this is a bit outside my collection area. Perhaps since this is your collection area you could show us some provenanced examples that you know of to have have true age to their extensive inlay work. It also seems odd that given the extensive wear on this blade that the inlay appears so pristine. You would think that it would be missing some areas of inlay as you see in the last example that Kai has posted if there was real age to it.
So, is ANYONE able to translate the writing? :shrug:

[Sajen]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Regards,
Kai


Exactly this one was meant, have forgotten that I have posted pictures at this place. Agree, the inlays look recent to me as well.

Regards,

Detlef

[VVV]

Kai,

Your pedang has a djadwal (a talismanic table) and not Qur'anic quotes.
Have you posted it before on this forum?
If not, maybe you can start a thread about it?
Maybe it has other Banjar characteristics, too?


Michael

[kai]

Hello Michael,

Your pedang has a djadwal (a talismanic table) and not Qur'anic quotes.
Yup, that's the reason why I feel more comfortable about it being genuine.


Have you posted it before on this forum?
If not, maybe you can start a thread about it?
Not yet - will get some more pics and post them.


Maybe it has other Banjar characteristics, too?
This one doesn't seem to have any obvious Banjar characteristics AFAIK. Am looking forward to more comments from you on this pedang!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello David,

It also seems odd that given the extensive wear on this blade that the inlay appears so pristine. You would think that it would be missing some areas of inlay as you see in the last example that Kai has posted if there was real age to it.
Maurice has a point though: it could also be argued the other way around (good quality work won't fail as easily). I guess we need additional approaches to get a better grip on these inlays.


So, is ANYONE able to translate the writing?
I've PMed Dom and hope he and his better half will have a look...

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

I am back home now for a day so here is the page that Alan referred to from Djelengga for everybody to read.

Based on my kindergarten level of Bahasa, he is writing that this is a traditional sword of Lombok and it is only used as weapon. That is the reason that some of them do not have pamor, but in the past they did. They are made locally by Lombok pande.

(Please correct my simple translation if I have misunderstood something)

Michael

[Sajen]

I am back home now for a day so here is the page that Alan referred to from Djelengga for everybody to read.

Based on my kindergarten level of Bahasa, he is writing that this is a traditional sword of Lombok and it is only used as weapon. That is the reason that some of them do not have pamor, but in the past they did. They are made locally by Lombok pande.

(Please correct my simple translation if I have misunderstood something)

Michael

I think we have had the same kindergarten education in Bahasa Indonesia, I understand it in a similar way.

Regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

I'll share the other one in time.

Tonight I have little time for writing but wish to note that Adni of MAG notes these as "klewang from the island of Lombok", perhaps an email to Adni may reveal some further information.
All but a few of my books are now in storage along with most of the family home contents...but what does Buttin mention about these swords?


Hi Gavin,

Please do share the other one when you have some time (and if it will reach you ofcourse. ;-) ).

Thank you also for your input! I'll see what I can find out with your references!

Maurice

[Maurice]

Thank you for your further comments Maurice.

"Djelengga" was Ir. H. Lalu Djelengga. He is now deceased. He authored "Keris di Lombok", published by Yayasan Pusaka Selaparang, it is out of print, and probably not able to be obtained, but you might find somebody with a photocopy for sale. This is the best reference for keris and other weapons from Lombok.

The 30 years I mentioned is the approximate time I have been involved in the keris trade in Jawa. My tuition by Empu Suparman began as near as I can recall, in 1982, and I had been buying in Indonesia long before that and selling internationally since 1978. Empu Suparman had dealt in keris and other traditional weapons, from the late 1940's, long before he was made a kraton empu. My actual study of keris and Javanese art, history and culture began when I was about 13 or 14, my collecting interest began when I was about 12, but I first came into contact with keris much earlier than that. I am now 72.

Maurice, I appreciate your invitation to continue discussion of this sword, but I will withdraw from discussion. I believe you will be much happier with comments from people other than myself, and apart from that, there is much I could say that I am duty bound not to say--- particularly in an internet discussion group that is open to everybody in the whole world to read.

Anything I might be able to add to what I have already said would serve no purpose at all.

Dear Alan,

Thank you very much for your reply and your explanation of Djelengga.
Somehow I really never heard about him, and now I'm certainly going to look if I find a copy somewhere of this probably most interesting work!

It's a truly interesting history of study keris and art etc you have built up.... I really respect that a lot, and therefore I really enjoyed having our debating.
Thank you for participating, and feel free to bump in any time you want.
It's always good to have such experienced collectors/researchers around on these forums!

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Hello Maurice,


Well, the only really old source which readily comes to mind is Schmeltz (1890; attached). And Fischer has it in the catalog for South Sumatra (1918).

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

Thanks for bringing this one up. Ofcourse I was aware of this one (and also about the Fischer catalogue), but I meant a more extended work about these kind of weapons...
Hopefully we find more in future

Regards,
Maurice

[Maurice]

Here's my only pedang with (limited) inlay. Just to get a bit of diversity in, not necessarily the pinnacle of quality though. ;)



Thanks Kai for sharing this one!
Looks like a very nice one. Can you show us an image of the whole sword?

[Maurice]

Well, this is just my opinion, but i would also think that these inscriptions are relative recent to the blade. The blade itself does seem to be old as does the rest of the ensemble. I do like those fullers. There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the patina. Obviously there is some patina here, but there is also a lot of dirt. Dirt is not patina. Sliver can be cleaned up without removing patina. Wood and horn can be revitalized without removing patina.
I have never seen a blade from this areas with this extent of writing on the blade that wasn't either obviously recent or at least suspicious. I am sorry that i have no examples to show as this is a bit outside my collection area. Perhaps since this is your collection area you could show us some provenanced examples that you know of to have have true age to their extensive inlay work. It also seems odd that given the extensive wear on this blade that the inlay appears so pristine. You would think that it would be missing some areas of inlay as you see in the last example that Kai has posted if there was real age to it.
So, is ANYONE able to translate the writing? :shrug:

Hi David, ofcourse I also know the difference of dirt and patina.
What I'm trying to prevent is that this old piece will get the very shiny appearance which is seen on a lot of old pieces by overcleaning.
According this piece I really like the contrast! Very good patina on the handle, blade and scabbard, and the mint condition of the silver inlay.
If I will clean this piece too much, probably most people would say the whole pedang is a new one. ;)

My collecting area is Borneo, as you all know by know. But besides that I still like to collect some "odd" and "rare" pieces too.

I agree that the silverwork inlay is very pristine according the patina. It could be that it's indeed done latter, or that it had been preserved very good somehow because of one reason or the other.
What I do know about the inlay, is that according mandaus you also see differences. Mandaus from the Mahakam area have much more quality inlay and almost never are missing inlay, also when they are very old.
Mandaus of the same age from the Baram area however, often misses a lot of dots. Reason??? (smaller dots?, less quality of the brass,silver?, less craftmanship?)

Waiting for a translation.... :o

[Maurice]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.



Indeed a very different quality of inlay...

[Maurice]

I am back home now for a day so here is the page that Alan referred to from Djelengga for everybody to read.

Based on my kindergarten level of Bahasa, he is writing that this is a traditional sword of Lombok and it is only used as weapon. That is the reason that some of them do not have pamor, but in the past they did. They are made locally by Lombok pande.

(Please correct my simple translation if I have misunderstood something)

Michael

Thanks for posting the image of concerning Djelengga page!
Looks like a must have article to me...

Maurice

[Sajen]

Thanks for posting the image of concerning Djelengga page!
Looks like a must have article to me...

Maurice

If you want I can copy some pages for you and send it to you.

Regards,

Detlef

[asomotif]

Indeed a very different quality of inlay...

Detlef's example in the swap looks more like koftgari work imho.

[Jentayu]

The verse in question was from Quran chapter 27 verse 30. It relates to the story of King Solomon. The translation reads as follows:

"Indeed, it is from Solomon, and indeed it reads, "In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Compassionate".

Believed this is the only chapter in the holy Quran that does not start with Basmallah as the verse was mentioned within its chapter itself.

[Jentayu]

The verse relates to the story of King Solomon writing a letter to Balqis, Queen of Sheba extending her to the worship of one true God. Not a typical story that you would probably find in the old testament, I must say.

[A.alnakkas]

The verse relates to the story of King Solomon writing a letter to Balqis, Queen of Sheba extending her to the worship of one true God. Not a typical story that you would probably find in the old testament, I must say.

except the script on the sword is full of repitition of the bassmallah and I cannot find any verse in it :-)

[VVV]

Jentayu, thanks for your translation.
However, I almost spilled out my morning coffee when I read your comment about the Basmallah.
I think you mixed it up. It is the 9th surah, At-Tawbah, that is the only sura not starting with Basmallah. Among "some esoteric Muslims" this complete surah has strong protective qualities.
The 27th is the only surah where Basmallah is also within the surah.
Probably this exception also makes this specific verse strongly protective and talismanic, too.
Basmallah, by itself, has of course very strong protective qualities, too.

Michael

[Jentayu]

Yes Michael you are right. I got it mixed up with Suratul Tawba. Chapter 27, An Naml where basmallah was mentioned in its chapter while At Tawba is the one without basmallah for start.

[Maurice]

Jentayu, thank you for the translation.
Is this translation repeated on the sides of the blade? (as the translation seems so short concerning all the texts written on the blade)...

And can you tell something about the meaning of the text/figures on the spine?

Michael thanks a lot for your correction, and I'm sorry it took you a half cup of coffee spoilt at first!
But that's a lot more interesting as what Jentayu is saying about the verse!

Unfortunately I don't have any knowledgement about these kind of verses.
So I understand it right that the text on the blade is from the 27th verse?

Kind regards,
Maurice

[VANDOO]

HERE IS A SIMULAR EXAMPLE OF MINE WITH INLAYED INSCRIPTIONS. BLADE 24IN. TOTAL 30 IN. NO SCABBARD. SILVER WITH CARVED HORN POMMEL. WAS SAID TO BE 19TH. CENTURY. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN WHAT IT SAYS OR IF IT IS SOME SORT OF CALENDAR OR TAILSMANIC TABLE. THANKS

[VANDOO]

MY EXAMPLE WITH SWASSA AND GOLD UNFORTUNATELY THE SWASSA SCABBARD TIP IS MISSING AND REPLACED WITH A POORLY MADE COPPER ONE. THIS EXAMPLE HAS AN INTERESTING PARMOR BLADE AS WELL. 30 INCHES LONG IN SCABBARD.

[VANDOO]

TWO MORE EXAMPLES BOTH WITH SILVER THE SMALLER ONE IS 24 1/4 IN. LONG IN SCABBARD. SILVER COVERED SCABBARD WITH ROUGH TEXTURED WATERED STEEL BLADE, HORN POMMEL.
2. SILVER COVERED GRIP WITH A FEW COPPER BANDS HEAVY WATERED STEEL BLADE WITH SMOOTH FINISH. 26 IN. LONG IN SCABBARD.

[kai]

Thanks for adding your pieces, Barry!

Both examples from your last post look like Lombok workmanship to me.

The suasa piece is very sweet! IMHO this one is from Sumatra.

I'd love to see the inlay of the first piece more clearly since this is especially pertinent for this thread! Could you please give resizing another try? Thanks a lot!

Regards,
Kai

[Maurice]

Barry, thank you for your contribution here!
The one you have with inlaid blade looks also nice.
Hopefully you can get more clear and blown up images like Kai suggests?

Maurice

[Gustav]

I am sorry, yet also to me the inlays of the initial Pedang seem to be done at least after the WWII.

Maurice, you probably have seen the other indonesian items from the original auction. These items surely weren't collected before 60ties.

http://katalog.auktionshaus-wendl.com/de/cmd/kat/h/119/a/76/

Especially the kerisses have touch of beeing made to catch a colector with some bigger money, yet not so good understanding of materia.

You also see, how many indonesian items are returned to the auction house.

For comparison some other stuff coming out of Lombok these days.

[VVV]

It is interesting that the other pedang classified as Lombok by the auction house also seems to have the features of Lombok according to my earlier post.
Maybe the tags are the original collection tags (no joke anymore about this) and that they both actually were collected in 1945 on Lombok by the original owner?

Michael

[Gustav]

Maybe the tags are the original collection tags (no joke anymore about this) and that they both actually were collected in 1945 on Lombok by the original owner?

Michael

The tags could indicate a year or could not: look through the other tags of this collection.

Honestly said, if there would be a tag, which explicitly states, the item has been collected 1945, I would believe it in the same degree as I believe in the authenticity of the most other items of this collection. To me this collection simply is not serious enough. We should look on the item and not on the tag. I stated my opinion about this item in the previous post and have nothing more to add to this thread.

Thanks!

[CharlesS]

VVV,

I believe I see what you are saying about the varying, but similar hilt styles.

Would you say that the top example here is more likely Lombok, while the bottom one is more likely Sumatra??

There is a real difference in the angles(with the Lombok example sharper) and detail in the horn carving.

[Maurice]

To me this collection simply is not serious enough. We should look on the item and not on the tag.
To me we should discuss this pedang and not the other items.
Than we wouldn't have a deflected discussion.
And it is a fact the tag was on the item, so it's not bad discussing the label also.



Maurice, you probably have seen the other indonesian items from the original auction. These items surely weren't collected before 60ties.

Yes I do have. Maybe you're right about the kerisses, as I have limited knowledge about them and I don't collect them myself. According other items I disagree in some cases. There were also some good 19th century pieces (not krisses) which would be good collection items They could be collected way earlier before the 60's. But maybe they're collected a month ago but are 19th century?



Especially the kerisses have touch of beeing made to catch a colector with some bigger money, yet not so good understanding of materia.
I'm not collecting kerisses and I must agree I didn't like all of them either, but irrelevant to the pedang.



You also see, how many indonesian items are returned to the auction house.
Yes, but here again. What does it have to do with the discussed pedang in this thread?
What does this imply to you then?
I wouldn't have bought those "returned" pieces in the first place, so I wouldn't have to return them afterwards.
And f.i. the returned rencong is a good original old one, though not fancy!?
Maybe it was only one "non seriously buyer" who bid on the all later "returned" items? Who knows?



I would believe it in the same degree as I believe in the authenticity of the most other items of this collection.
What do you think about the pedang item nr. 51? And the authenticity of the rencong? Both also 60's? :confused:
My opinion is that these are both good old ones, and the "pedang" nr. 51 is very attractive also in my opinion and worthy in a good collection! But......not relevant to my pedang which I put up for discussion here in the first place. So I leave it with this!



For comparison some other stuff coming out of Lombok these days.
Now here we have something relevant! I agree this one is as extensively inlaid as mine, and looks like the same craftmanship! This is relevent material to compare! Thanks for posting this one!



I stated my opinion about this item in the previous post and have nothing more to add to this thread.
:confused: OK. Thanks!

[asomotif]

To blur the discussion maybe even more.
Here is another Pedang from the same auction.

Lombok or Sumatra ? and why ?

[Maurice]

To blur the discussion maybe even more.
Here is another Pedang from the same auction.

Lombok or Sumatra ? and why ?

Bali/Lombok I guess according the decorations at the scabbard.

[VVV]

Of course these observations are only indications but altogether they seem to point to Lombok.

The squarish hilt is Lombok style.
The motifs on the silver resembles those seen on other Lombok weapons.
A fuller and no intricate pamor are features often seen on Lombok.

Michael

PS Charles, mail me if you want to further discuss any of your own pedang/kelewang.

[Gustav]

By pure chance looked through this thread (I suppose it's not relevant anymore; as I understand Maurice has sold this Pedang), and have found an interesting detail.

It seems to have a twistcore pamor, which means a couple of things:

almost surely

A) the blade (if old) is of Lombok origin;

B) the fullers are not original or at least not originally intended;

C) the inlays are not original.

[A. G. Maisey]

Always relevant Gustav. Knowledge doesn't really have a time limit.

We see this sort of thing fairly frequently. People do not want to believe that it could be recent, but in my experience it nearly always is, especially so when it is beautiful and perfect, because this sort of ornamentation does not wear well.