silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls)

[mykeris]

saw this in one of the auction sites (auction completed).
So beautiful.Mykeris :)

[Jean]

Hello Mykeris,
This style of fancily decorated silver sheath or pendok is a recent fashion, and it is applied to both Bugis and balinese style krisses.... Don't regret it, you can easily find similar pieces on the market if you wish so. :)
Regards

[mykeris]

Hi Jean, how much does it cost in Bali? :) I am looking for one. Appreciate if you dont mind showing me pic. samples. TQ.

[David]

Hi Jean, how much does it cost in Bali? :) I am looking for one. Appreciate if you dont mind showing me pic. samples. TQ.
This is definitely not the place to discuss the cost of such things...

[mykeris]

Sorry David, kindly ignore earlier posting Jean. :)

[Jean]

Hello Mykeris,
If I notice such a piece for sale I will contact you by private message. Other members may have noted it also and propose you something. :)
Regards

[mykeris]

Very kind of you Jean. Regards..Mykeris.

[Battara]

So if I understand right, toli-tolis like this one are recent. What do older toli-tolis look like?

[Sajen]

So if I understand right, toli-tolis like this one are recent. What do older toli-tolis look like?


Hello Jose,

will try to take pictures from the book Senjata Pusaka Bugis at weekend.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Hello Detlef and Jose,
In this book only 2 silver toli-toli are shown and at least one of them is recent. You can see nice and old gold specimens in the books "Keris" from Dr Hamzuri (pusakas from the Jakarta Museum) and "Courts of Indonesia" by Helen Jessup.
Regards

[Sajen]

Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Here the pictures from the two examples shown in the above mentioned book. frankly said i don't know from which one Jean think that it is recent.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef and Jose,
The kris shown on the right of the picture has a recent sheath and hilt IMO, see another specimen with a similar embedded silver wire decoration on the bottom part of the gandar (not Sulawesi Bugis but rather from Bali/ Lombok or Sumbawa?). However this style of decoration seems a bit less recent than the spiral wires and flowers seen on the sheath shown by Mykeris. But other opinions are welcome! :)
Regards

[David]

Frankly, the work on this first example that MyKeris posted looks like a hot mess. The workmanship is really poor on this piece, no where near the quality of this older example that Jean has just posted. It is also far too much in regards to style. I much prefer the understated and more elegant effect of this last example.
:shrug:

[Battara]

Thank you all folks! What I can partially conclude is that the earlier toli-tolis are not chased but wire filigree in all the work.

I like the last example posted, and that has better craftsmanship. It has silver filigree all over instead of chasing and embossing, which I admit is more difficult in this case.

I hope I am correct in my analysis of the metal work of the earlier toli-toli.


Another question: does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)?

[mykeris]

here some samples I manged to pick up from a blog. Sure, the best. :) David, I think you should survey more. :)

[mykeris]

The one posted by Jean is about 30 years old, considered cool. :)

[Naga Sasra]

Hello everyone,
I have attached photos of two pieces with toli-toli, One is of a more recent make and one is quite old.
I believe we would be hasty to conclude that earlier toli-tolis are not either chased or embossed, but wire filigree. As always things are not always what they seem top be, especially when it comes to keris.
regards,
Erik

[David]

David, I think you should survey more. :)
I'm willing to survey as many as people care to post MyKeris, but that won't change my opinion about the one you originally posted. :shrug:
These last two that you posted are of a much finer craft. :)
That very last one you posted seems quite unusual in style Eric, but i really like the workmanship. When do you suppose this one was made?

[Battara]

Lovely examples. I guess it is only the quality and not the style that determines age?

Otherwise, this is getting more confusing (the state where I live :confused: )

[mykeris]

Thanks David, hope to get more old samples from the others, tq in advance, :)

[mykeris]

I like the one you posted Erik. Looks genuine 1900s.

[David]

...does the presence of a toli-toli make the keris a ceremonial piece or is it a sign of nobility (or could it be both)?
Though i don't mind the beauty pageant displays of fine craftsmanship here i would love to see us get into some deeper questions about toli-toli in regards to how they fit into the social structure of the keris culture of that area.It seems that new toli-toli are simply being added to dress these days for commercial purposes, attracting buyers to the fancy, shiny bobbles. I am much more interested in the original intent of this aspect of dress, who could wear it when and why. While some of the more modern made toli-toli are indeed well crafted and beautiful they just don't seem appropriate or special anymore. What is the point of a king's crown when everybody is wearing one? :shrug:

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I'm running on memory here, and I read the source some months ago, so I could be incorrect, but in the book on Bugis keris that came out a while ago I seem to recall that the reason given for the use of toli2 was that when somebody came into the presence of the ruler, the toli2 needed to be in place , and if it were not in place, the offending person got whacked right there with no questions asked.

Effectively it was to ensure that a succession by assassination did not occur.

There might have been subsidiary reasons also given, but what I seem to remember is what I have written. Anybody who has this book can check it easily.

I cannot check this book at the moment, as I have lent it a friend.

In fact, I have never seen an old example of one of these lavish toli2, the only ones I've ever seen have been made from plain, soft cord. I've seen a couple of pics of the extravagant work of art ones that were probably a bit old, but I've never the real thing in front of me.

[Naga Sasra]

The first example is of a very recent make, I picked it up in 1998, and it was purchased in and shipped from Lombok. The second example with the kinatah emas blade is different in that is has some age to it, it is estimated to have been made early to mid-20th century. I purchased it privately from a Canadian collection.
The recent pieces seem to start showing up on the market in the late part of the last century, and just checking EBay and others, they are not hard to find in various qualities.
In a much earlier post we were informed of the spiritual meaning of the Toli Toil and also advised that the correct name is “Passiosumange” which means ring of spirit. There is a belief that the wearer of the keris with Passiosumange attached will have a greater sense of what is happening in his area/home land. It is also noted that it is a symbol of high status.
However, the ornament is also called Tuli Tuli and also Tuli Tuli Batir Batir. This is translated in the Malay – English dictionary as follows;
Batir Batir, the golden band used to fasten the keris scabbard to the belt. Note: This band which is stiff and shaped like a hoop, is attached to the scabbard and is really more for ornament than for use. In the Malay Peninsula the term Tuli Tuli is used.
As for the original intent, it has been suggested that is a symbol of high status in society, which carry some logic with me, as the finer and more expensive materials used, the finer garap employed, the higher the price thus eliminating most people. I did see a photo of a pair of newlywed where the male had a keris with Toli Toli and will as such suggest it is worn for ceremonial purposes as well.
Perhaps some of our fellow forum members from the Malay world can expand on the true purpose and its original intent.
Regards,
Erik

[mykeris]

After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum. :) :)

[David]

After reading all views, I must say... it is very difficult to determine age of a toli-toli sheath due to lack of research and genuine samples- the new look could be old...and the old could be the other...... I must thank you people for taking the effort posting images of your topi-toli kerises to this forum. :) :)
You give up too easily here MyKeris. I am not yet convinced that it is not possible to determine old and "genuine" versions of toli-toli from the flood of new ones that are now all over the web. Right now on eBay i see just the toli-toli for sale as a separate item so that one can simply buy it as an upgrade attachment to your current ensemble. Somehow this seems wrong-headed to me, simply a way to embellish a keris to command more resale value from it. To my mind these kind of thoughtless upgrades are counter to the entire concept of ethnographic collection.
The explanation that Alan puts forth is one that i have indeed heard before and it does make some kind of logical sense. Of course, if that is the case it makes me wonder exactly when this protocol was in place in the palace since Eric's older example is a stylized version that would not allow practical application of the toli-toli (still pretty slick looking though, innit? ;) ). I would also be really interested in knowing what societal level within the culture would wear these. If Alan is correct then it makes some sense that only people who were of a high enough status to actually have an audience with the ruler would have toli-toli on their keris. :shrug:

[mykeris]

Thanks David, I will certainly follow future postings in this forum. You know why? ...Because you people talk facts and logic. TQ again. :)

[Jean]

If Alan is correct then it makes some sense that only people who were of a high enough status to actually have an audience with the ruler would have toli-toli on their keris. :shrug:

Hello David,
I fully agree with what you say but it seems to me that most if not all Bugis krisses from Sulawesi were fitted with a simple passio sumange / toli-toli (made from string) just for hanging the kris to the belt. I am showing a typical specimen which is made from knitted silver wire on a string base, unfortunately the bottom loop is missing. I saw several worn-out passio sumange attached to old Bugis krisses in the 90's but none of these fancy silver pieces with rosettes which now flood the market. :)
Best regards

[Sajen]

Hello David,
I fully agree with what you say but it seems to me that most if not all Bugis krisses from Sulawesi were fitted with a simple passio sumange / toli-toli (made from string) just for hanging the kris to the belt. I am showing a typical specimen which is made from knitted silver wire on a string base, unfortunately the bottom loop is missing. I saw several worn-out passio sumange attached to old Bugis krisses in the 90's but none of these fancy silver pieces with rosettes which now flood the market. :)
Best regards

Beautiful keris Jean! :eek:

[Jean]

Beautiful keris Jean! :eek:

Thanks Detlef. I bought this piece from a Bugis family established in Kalimantan, as you can see the blade is probably from Sumatra but I did not notice it at that time! :D
Regards

[Battara]

Great piece! So would you consider this an old toli-toli?

Also would this piece be considered nobility dress?

[Jean]

Hello Battara,
If you refer to my last piece, I would just consider the toli-toli as an used and standard model for everyday dress. The missing loop at the bottom uses the same materials as the top one and the binding string is more recent.
Regards

[Gustav]

A link to a thread with genuine old Passio Sumangge, and one of the most beautiful one, attached to a Keris of Sultan from Riau-Lingga:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11619&highlight=toli

Perhaps the earliest one with Passio Sumangge is the keris of August the Strong of Saxony, it's in Europe since 17. cent.

[rasjid]

Yes Alan, its written in Keris Bugis book.
As per Naga Sasra comment, attached sample my keris with passio sumange.
I think Andi irfan also written somewhere in this forum about passio sumange as well.

If you can see underneath there is a piece of paper which normally written something good for the owner or written prayer (As told to me by senior in bugis keris)
I just leave it as it is and stain the blade (personal preference)

Rasjid

[David]

Well, i guess we are not really getting any closer to the original intent of the passio sumange, though Andi has some interesting things to say here.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=99317
I'm not sure that Jean's hanging suggestion make sense since many of what appear to be earlier examples or not the simple cord variety that his or Rasjid's keris show. Also, the loop is on the front face of the sheath so i cannot see how it would hang well from a belt with this loop.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Rasjid, but I'm not clear on whether you're telling me my recollection was correct, of Naga Sasra's recounting is correct.

My recollection could well be wrong, as noted, but I do know that what I wrote I have read somewhere.

One of the problems with anything like this, by that, I mean the interpretation of intent, is that the interpretation is only good for a specific window in time, most especially is that so with the keris. Thus it is that we have a philosophical or a mystical interpretation put upon a utilitarian object when the original need for utility has passed.

A really good example of what I mean here is the system of philosophy that has grown around the keris in Central Jawa over the last 200 years, or maybe less. The utilitarian purpose of the keris in Jawa passed long ago, but it became a cultural artifact and developed a different purpose for its continued existence.

Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss.

Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige.

The very simple fact of the entire human existence is that the passing of time alters the way in which things are perceived:- what is true today is not necessarily true for any time in the past.

[Rick]

My oh my !
I can't believe how many of these are now featured on a certain auction site since we have started discussing them ... :eek: ;)

Cause and effect ? :rolleyes:

[A. G. Maisey]

Isn't it nice to be taken notice of?

Wonder if Lee could charge a commission for promotion?

[rasjid]

Hi Alan,

Just confirming your statement that its written in Keris Bugis book about "in the presence of a ruler". I believe pp.153 :D

Rasjid

[Gustav]

Even though I recall reading the "tie down in presence of ruler" thing for the toli2, my personal opinion is that it developed from the need to ensure that the keris did not fall from its place on the body, I believe that originally it would have been used to secure the keris against loss.

Then the presence of ruler thing, and finally the philosophical interpretation --- and of course let us not forget social display, art and prestige.


I also think, the original purpose of Toli2 is securing the keris, yet slightly another kind. The earliest examples of Toli2 are part of the Gowa-Makassar type Kerisses, and another part of full ensemble is the loop attached at the Keris hilt base. I suppose, this loop was intertwined with the upper loop of Toli2, and it very well could be done at court, as a kind of early securing of a weapon. Both loops mostly have the same workmanship.

Later the loop at the hilt basis disappeared and perhaps here the whole thing got another meaning.

[Rick]

A case of the form outlasting the function .

[A. G. Maisey]

The sort of toli2 I've handled had what I can only describe as a figure eight loop, a small loop at the top, then a much larger loop that extended down the gandar, both in cord that had been wound with twine, and bound to the gandar at the waist of the figure eight. The whole thing was just a circle of bound cord that was held in at a waist and bound to the gandar. Pretty simple really, functional and no ornamentation.

If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

[Gustav]

Here is a picture of the loop fixed at the keris hilt base I ment. At the moment I see no other explanation for it as to be in some way connected with Toli2. In this case it wouldn't allow the blade to be drawn out of the sheath.

[Jean]

If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

Hello Alan,
What do you mean by setagen?
Any input from our Bugis members regarding the practical use of the passio sumange? It is still unclear to me. :)
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

The sash that you wear around your waist. A sarung is just held at your waist by rolling it over, you kink it a bit on one end maybe, but it still comes loose and if there's not something holding it at your waist it continually comes loose.

It can be held by a heavy leather belt, which seems to be what blokes from Madura and some manual labourers in Jawa use---often has pockets in it to hold money or tobacco --- it can be held by a cloth belt --- sabuk--- or it can be held by a setagen, which is particularly so for formal wear.

If you wind a setagen right it acts a bit like a corset and supports your back, which is pretty handy for court wear where the abdi dalem spend hours sitting on the floor cross legged. Not easy.

The setagen is held in place by a sabuk, the cloth belt, for formal wear, and sometimes for non-formal wear.

Anyway, the setagen is wound around the waist and in Jawa the keris is slipped down between specific folds of the setagen at the back, when it becomes a wangkingan, but if one of the folds of the setagen was passed through the toli2 before the winding around the waist was complete, that single passing of the setagen through the toli2 would anchor the wrongko so it could not come free until you took the setagen off.

You could maybe do the same or similar with a belt, particularly a cloth belt.

Women wear a setagen too, and they often wear it wound very tight from the top of the hips to the bottom of the ribs, this helps them a lot to carry those incredible weights they can carry on their heads.

Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men.

Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

[Sajen]

Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men.

Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.


:D :D Agree!

[Jean]

Thank you Alan.

[mykeris]

Dear friends,
since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq. :)

[David]

Dear friends,
since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq. :)
Well, "experts" say the funniest things sometimes, don't they. I will continue to believe that the first keris sheath that started this thread is a rather contemporary piece. Your mileage may differ... ;) :D

[Battara]

I will agree that as one who works with metals, filigree is much more difficult than the chasing work.

[mykeris]

Well, "experts" say the funniest things sometimes, don't they. I will continue to believe that the first keris sheath that started this thread is a rather contemporary piece. Your mileage may differ... ;) :D


"Sorry David, even the Foreign Expert Alan Maisey made a wrong judgement in one of those keris threads (hope you remember) "regarding .. whether the sheath really belongs to the blade" and one member of this forum Alam Shah stood by his opinion using 'LOGIC'...if you could remember.

I always agree with Alan, you cannot authenticate an item with 100 percent result without it seeing physically. I learned from his professional statement.TQ :)

Views differ..and Learning will never end !

[Rick]

Opinions; well, everyone has one . ;) :D

[A. G. Maisey]

My Keris, firstly, I am not an expert.

Most especially I am not an expert on all types of keris from everywhere.

I do have a little bit of knowledge in respect of some very limited matters associated with Javanese, Madurese and Balinese keris.

I have spent a very long time in the study of the culture, society and history associated with the keris prior to its spread into areas of SE Asia other than its original cultural location.

But I am certainly no expert.

One thing I am not able to do is to give any guarantee at all in respect of any opinion I may give based upon what I can see in a photograph. I do recognise this inadequacy, and I freely admit that I do not have the psychic abilities of some other people which permits them to give solid opinions based upon photographs.

Regarding the wrong judgement which I made, and which you quote in your recent post, I would be very obliged if could refresh my memory by directing me to that thread. Thanks.

[David]

I always agree with Alan, you cannot authenticate an item with 100 percent result without it seeing physically. I learned from his professional statement.TQ :)
So your expert made his assessment based solely on a photograph and yet you accept that opinion 100%? Interesting. :)
Here is a link to the original auction BTW, with more photos. This link won't stay live for ever, but i don't have the energy to copy all the images to this forum for future reference.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Silver-Keris-Sumatra-Indonesia-c1800-/230974832804

[David]

"Sorry David, even the Foreign Expert Alan Maisey made a wrong judgement in one of those keris threads (hope you remember) "regarding .. whether the sheath really belongs to the blade" and one member of this forum Alam Shah stood by his opinion using 'LOGIC'...if you could remember.
And frankly, no, i don't quite remember this so you would indeed need to refresh my memory, though i don't quite see how it is relevant to this thread or why you feel the need to refer to Alan as "the Foreign Expert". :shrug: