The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ This new thread re-introduces The Omani Straight Sayf noted for its long hilt(identical to the Kattara), flexible blade, spatulate tip and sharpened on both sides to honour the forefathers and the sword they went to war with (The Omani Battle Sword) In this case the sword though vicious looking and used in anger would certainly cause damage is not, nor has it ever been a fighting weapon. It is a pageantry sword only. It is used in the famous Funoon traditions in dancing and warlike parading and in a mimic fights between 2 contestants where the single winning point is won by touching the thumb with your blade of the opponents shield bearing hand (left hand) The sword like the Omani Battle Sword is used with a Buckler Shield (Terrs). They are hoisted by squadrons of men buzzing the blades with fast wrist action and often tossed high in the air and caught by the hilt. It is also used at important meetings of VIPS and at weddings, National Day celebrations and Eid festivities. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I was too busy typing in the old thread to remember you started another;

Thank you Ibrahiim,

There is not enough 18th and 19th century evidence to consider the straight form as a dance sword only.

The sword was the high symbol of the warrior. I am still not convinced that by form alone, curved vs. straight that one is separated by use from the other, more so when they both share the same hilts and scabbard types and the straight ones are seen in much higher numbers than the sabres. And why do they all have a sharpened edge in straight form, not something required of a dance sword.
By design, I think it would have been personal choice of what type was wanted and I wouldn't be surprised if W. H. INGRAMS failed to note curved types in the dance fray too.
To consider this is only a dance sword, to me would be like saying Jian and Dao or double edged vs. singled edged Khanda hilted sword have separate purposes.

If I was to follow the thought that straight sword is dance only, I add, when considering the ratio of straight vs. curved types that there was very little adventuring being done by the Omani and they were too busy dancing, something history says is the opposite off.
Also, when the straight form pushed so far west in to Mandingo dress and dress of other regions, that the sword was used and displayed to these western cultures as weapons as I am sure they didn't just dance with them after being in touch with traders.

I again return to the original TVV thread that I would suggest your post in that thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. Do not mistake flexibility for weakness, but an advantage when used in this manner with the flexible sword for cutting and the shield for defense.
I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of the sword but important a cultural observation of the time with a more common sword used in the dance observed, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony and importance...in much the same way the revered Jian is both used for fighting and also a spiritual weapon in Taoist ceremony and dance. To dismiss the form alone in its national dress as a dance sword is not supported but each sword I would suggest be inspected under it's own merit.

Regards

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I was too busy typing in the old thread to remember you started another;

Thank you Ibrahiim,

There is not enough 18th and 19th century evidence to consider the straight form as a dance sword only.

The sword was the high symbol of the warrior. I am still not convinced that by form alone, curved vs. straight that one is separated by use from the other, more so when they both share the same hilts and scabbard types and the straight ones are seen in much higher numbers than the sabres. And why do they all have a sharpened edge in straight form, not something required of a dance sword.
By design, I think it would have been personal choice of what type was wanted and I wouldn't be surprised if W. H. INGRAMS failed to note curved types in the dance fray too.
To consider this is only a dance sword, to me would be like saying Jian and Dao or double edged vs. singled edged Khanda hilted sword have separate purposes.

If I was to follow the thought that straight sword is dance only, I add, when considering the ratio of straight vs. curved types that there was very little adventuring being done by the Omani and they were too busy dancing, something history says is the opposite off.
Also, when the straight form pushed so far west in to Mandingo dress and dress of other regions, that the sword was used and displayed to these western cultures as weapons as I am sure they didn't just dance with them after being in touch with traders.

I again return to the original TVV thread that I would suggest your post in that thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. Do not mistake flexibility for weakness, but an advantage when used in this manner with the flexible sword for cutting and the shield for defense.
I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 is not it's sole purpose of the sword but important a cultural observation of the time with a more common sword used in the dance observed, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony and importance...in much the same way the revered Jian is both used for fighting and also a spiritual weapon in Taoist ceremony and dance. To dismiss the form alone in its national dress as a dance sword is not supported but each sword I would suggest be inspected under it's own merit.

Regards

Gavin


Salaams Gavin, I have been through much of the same on Kattara for comment but Im sure of my ground and that thread is full of proof however I will take your point up straightaway. First it is important to see the development of no swords in Oman since about 751 ad..and why? Techno freeze was not uncommon and this is seen in the use of a battle sword from virtually day 1 of the Ibathi Islamic period. It never altered.

The pageantry sword happenend a lot later. It was always kept razor sharp. I also compare it with the Omani Battle Sword in that it was spatulate tipped and sharp both edges and given the status with the Terrs Shield.. I believe this occured in parallel or because of the 1744 Al Busaiid dynasty. I suspect that the hilt was a take off from the long Mamluke hilt and that it was adopted on two Omani swords... The Dancing Sayf and the Kattara. The latter being a Slave Captains or Merchant sword and badge of office and at about the same time mid 1700s.

By about then gunpowder was getting big and essentially the demise of swords was ongoing. The main battle sword, however, was still the Old Omani Battle Sword. The Museums have the documentation. The funoon is the living record of the traditions. Dictated in that are the fact that the flexible dancing sword was for pageants after a certain time(circa 1750?) though before that it had been done with the original Battle Sword . I shall be in Muscat in a few weeks and have a number of visits to each of the museums. I should be able to confirm my findings.

I know it is not very scientific but I have questioned a lot of people including sword makers here and they burst into laughter when the idea of this sword is put as a fighting weapon. If it was it would be slap bang in the funoon as such... whereas it isnt...It has no history as a battlefield sword and to my knowledge has never been used in a fight.

Its in there as a honorific idea praising the actual Old Omani Battle Sword and their forefathers who used it. The thing only goes back a couple of hundred years...Its a dancing sword only. Why is it sharp ? The Omanis who dance with it say its because of the other sword which was sharp ... and anyway theywouldnt perform with a blunt one as it would be dishonourable to the forefathers who went into battle with the Old sword... sharp as a razor.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Since a I am often referring to Pageantry and The Omani Sayf only being used for dancing etc I should show some of these activities ~
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ The Omani Sayf is not a weapon. It is an honorific dancing sword.

In the traditions there are two major parts played out with the Omani Sayf~

1. The Straight Dancing Sword is used in a sort of "parade past" generally in lines of massed participants (all male) waving the swords in a fashion that makes the blades shimmer. Occasional specialists throw the entire sword high in the air and catch it by the hilt.

2. The mimic fight; Two contestants "mimic fight" using Straight Swords and Shields (Sayf wa Terrs) The contest is won when one spatulate tip touches the thumb of the opponents shield hand. One touch only ends the contest.

Although these look like warlike manouvres they are only honoring their forefathers who went in to bat in real battles... with the Omani Battle Sword.
Indeed the Omani Dancing Sword is modelled on the old weapon but with the major differences being the long flexible blade on a long hilt. Retained in the design are many of the features of the old weapon including its sharp double edge and round tip as well as the use of the same shield ... The Terrs.

Naturally since this flexible dancing Sayf probably only appeared in about 1750 and the traditional dancing is ancient going back to the beginning of Ibathi Islam in 751AD it was the Battle Sword that was used previously in this part of The Funoon.

There is a fresh hypothesis in that prior to the advent of the flexible Sayf... that no Funoon dancing for swords existed and that the entire genre for sword work in the Funoon began with the flexible swords invention in about 1750?. It seems improbable since these traditions are handed down through the ages, however, that slim possibility is being examined via the Museums in Muscat and the Funoon authorities. In fact it would not make any difference to the general categorisation but it is being persued. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~ As a background piece I have copied below one of my posts from "Kattara for comments" which will continue to be a rich source for study . In viewing the dancing Sayf I questioned many groups of people from all over Oman none of whom considered the straight Sayf as anything other than a pageantry sword. Getting down to the same questions with those that ought to know focussed my attention on known sword makers since they would surely be knowledgeable about this ... The speciality of swordmaking is usually handed down father to son moreover in the profession of swordmakers the likelihood of discovering the true facts must rate as high.

Here is the article ~

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From http://www.thenational.ae/news/.../...ng-trade-in-rak
Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only.

Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen.

"All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations."
Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said.

Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught.

The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades.
Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom.
They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season.

Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe.
Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers.
Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight."
There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis.

For many years, bargain hunters would often skip the markets of old RAK and buy from the family of Charchambi Daad Mohammed, a Baluchi axe and sword maker who crafted the weapons in his house.
Until last year, he roamed the streets of the Nakheel market with a bundle of swords and axes under his arm to be sold to whoever had the cash.
The swords business got a boost last December after Fujairah's first annual Al Saif Traditional Sword Competition, in which TV viewers and audience members voted by SMS for their favourite sword dancer.
RAK swordsmiths reported a sharp rise in demand for a month afterwards". Unquote.

None of the Museums have, as yet, disagreed with that concept. I am on a research session in March April and May in amongst the Muscat museums and will report on any findings.

It is very clear up to now that the Sayf in this thread; The Omani Dancing Sword; has never been used in war or fighting ever... but is solely used as a Pageantry sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams All ~ As a background piece I have copied below one of my posts from "Kattara for comments" which will continue to be a rich source for study . In viewing the dancing Sayf I questioned many groups of people from all over Oman none of whom considered the straight Sayf as anything other than a pageantry sword. Getting down to the same questions with those that ought to know focussed my attention on known sword makers since they would surely be knowledgeable about this ... The speciality of swordmaking is usually handed down father to son moreover in the profession of swordmakers the likelihood of discovering the true facts must rate as high.

Here is the article ~


Hi Ibrahiim,

Interesting article, however I think it's important to point out the article is purely in reference to modern practices and use of the sword - it's not discussing the weapon in a historical context and in that sense the information it relays doesn't detail either for or against the sword being purely a dance article over the entire life of the form.

For me at least, there are three major areas that stand out with regards to the straight sayf:

1. Why do the blades follow the form of 18-19th century trade blades if they have never used trade blades with this hilt style.

2. Why the application of blade stamps if they have never used imported blades in these style mounts.

3. Given the above, why would the same hilt be applied to combat ready swords only in the context of curved blades with plenty of straight, quality European blades also floating around.

I simply can't see the reason behind going to the trouble of copying a functional blade form, from outside the culture no less, just for the sake of adapting it into a dancing item while happily using curved blades as is. This is absolutely nothing to do with what they are used for now - it's a question of why the form evolved to what it is now and from what. Why this pattern of blade, why the penchant for European style blade marks?

As I've said a few times before on these threads, I don't have any stake in these discussions. These weapons aren't my area and I don't own any. I'm an impartial reader.

Frankly this has nothing to do with the question of combat or non combat - but has everything to do with the notion that the straight swords never used heavier, imported blades.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Interesting article, however I think it's important to point out the article is purely in reference to modern practices and use of the sword - it's not discussing the weapon in a historical context and in that sense the information it relays doesn't detail either for or against the sword being purely a dance article over the entire life of the form.

For me at least, there are three major areas that stand out with regards to the straight sayf:

1. Why do the blades follow the form of 18-19th century trade blades if they have never used trade blades with this hilt style.

2. Why the application of blade stamps if they have never used imported blades in these style mounts.

3. Given the above, why would the same hilt be applied to combat ready swords only in the context of curved blades with plenty of straight, quality European blades also floating around.

I simply can't see the reason behind going to the trouble of copying a functional blade form, from outside the culture no less, just for the sake of adapting it into a dancing item while happily using curved blades as is. This is absolutely nothing to do with what they are used for now - it's a question of why the form evolved to what it is now and from what. Why this pattern of blade, why the penchant for European style blade marks?

As I've said a few times before on these threads, I don't have any stake in these discussions. These weapons aren't my area and I don't own any. I'm an impartial reader.

Frankly this has nothing to do with the question of combat or non combat - but has everything to do with the notion that the straight swords never used heavier, imported blades.

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain, Thank you for your post . It is my view (and apparently the same view is held by the Omani Museums which I will confirm in due course) that the Sayf has always been only a pageantry sword and never used in combat from its induction as a dancing sword probably at the beginning of the current ruling family dynasty in 1744... give or take a few years.

The item I reintroduced above was only back up to the situation and unfortunately the better of the two references contained in it ... The old Baluch sword maker wasn't questioned...We think that sword making in RAK goes back about 75 years but beyond that it is hard to establish. So I use it as a modest indicator but obviously one would expect them to have some historical knowledge of its prior history.

The straight Omani Sayf ... or what I call the pageantry sword or dancing sword is in my view based upon the only other straight sword in the Omani arsenal and I have compared it with that sword on Kattara for comments at #312. In essence this is not viewed by me as an outside sword moreover as a copied style mirroring the Omani Battle Sword. The Omani Battle Sword is not only similar but its Terrs Shield was also passed on to the Dancing Sayf as its accompanying shield in the honorific pageantry role.

Your questions are answered as under~

1. Why do the blades follow the form of 18-19th century trade blades if they have never used trade blades with this hilt style?

It could be that this sword evolved entirely from the Yemeni long hilt not from the trade blade..however again I point out the similarities in blade design to the Omani Battle Sword. In my view and having seen tons of these pageantry blades~ they are very flexible broad and spatulate tipped but not stamped with European blade stamps... at least not original ones. Many have absolutely local stamps...whilst many have none. They are deeply fullered to increase flex and lighten the swords...They appear as random local manufacture not least by Zutoot "Gypsy" wandering workshops pre 1970.. and likely to have been made in Nizwa and Muscat and lately in the last half century in RAK and in Salalah though I need more research on the latter.

2. Why the application of blade stamps if they have never used imported blades in these style mounts?

The regions sword makers have been copying blade stamps for hundreds of years. It is not necessarily a way of implying that the blade is by that maker but more a quality stamp perhaps in honour of great previous blade makers. Of course there is always the chance that it is simply a way to place a higher price on a blade. I shall be checking on the Museums collections for straight blades with original European stamps in a week or two. I see nothing sinister with running wolf copied squigles on swords here nor TAJ British India strikes. They were all done locally. I have met the sword joiners in Muscat who have since 1970 been uniting Omani longhilts on European blades still plentiful in the souk chain of supply mainly from Sanaa. These are tourist aimed.

3. Given the above, why would the same hilt be applied to combat ready swords only in the context of curved blades with plenty of straight, quality European blades also floating around?

I think by that you mean why was the same hilt applied to the Omani Curved Kattara and the Omani Sayf at the same time when one was a fighting blade and the other wasnt? Firstly, I don't think the curved was only a weapon... but more importantly a badge of office for a Ships Captain or VIP including occasionally Royalty and important slave traders like Tippu Tip. I don't view this curved sword as a battle sword though it would certainly work if struck by one ! On the other hand it was not seen with shield ..because it was only an identifier of rank though on occasions perhaps it was unleashed in anger as a punisher..It too failed to make it into the history books as a battle sword... in fact that was not its intention; "Badge of Office" was.

It is also worth remembering that the straight Sayf and curved Kattara swords appeared inside the parameters of the gunpowder timeframe and that swords were on their way out as fighting weapons vice long barrels and cannon. The demise of the spear also happened early on in the gunpowder revolution.

My theory stands based on the above and on the Funoon and the fact that the Omani Battle Sword and Terrs were the original battlefield duo and never changed in a thousand years. The sword even becoming Iconised and by the designer Sheherazad; a wife of Saiid Sultan 1804 to 1856. (Probably about 1850)

The timeframe I seek to prove the appearance of the Sayf (and probably the Kattara) is within that rulers scope or a little before perhaps at the beginning of the Dynasty in 1744..That is where I am looking.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain, Thank you for your post . It is my view (and apparently the same view is held by the Omani Museums which I will confirm in due course) that the Sayf has always been only a pageantry sword and never used in combat from its induction as a dancing sword probably at the beginning of the current ruling family dynasty in 1744... give or take a few years.

The item I reintroduced above was only back up to the situation and unfortunately the better of the two references contained in it ... The old Baluch sword maker wasn't questioned...We think that sword making in RAK goes back about 75 years but beyond that it is hard to establish. So I use it as a modest indicator but obviously one would expect them to have some historical knowledge of its prior history.

The straight Omani Sayf ... or what I call the pageantry sword or dancing sword is in my view based upon the only other straight sword in the Omani arsenal and I have compared it with that sword on Kattara for comments at #312. In essence this is not viewed by me as an outside sword moreover as a copied style mirroring the Omani Battle Sword. The Omani Battle Sword is not only similar but its Terrs Shield was also passed on to the Dancing Sayf as its accompanying shield in the honorific pageantry role.


Hi Ibrahiim,

Lets leave the combat/non combat question at the door for a bit. :) Its not really key to what I'm getting at.

I'm afraid I really fail to see this as much of a progression from the older Omani sword style. Flat, wider, shorter blades to longer, narrower fullered blades? Not much of a connection to my eyes...


It could be that this sword evolved entirely from the Yemeni long hilt not from the trade blade..however again I point out the similarities in blade design to the Omani Battle Sword. In my view and having seen tons of these pageantry blades~ they are very flexible broad and spatulate tipped but not stamped with European blade stamps... at least not original ones. Many have absolutely local stamps...whilst many have none. They are deeply fullered to increase flex and lighten the swords...They appear as random local manufacture not least by Zutoot "Gypsy" wandering workshops pre 1970.. and likely to have been made in Nizwa and Muscat and lately in the last half century in RAK and in Salalah though I need more research on the latter.


See above - the Omani battle sword doesn't have many similarities. The Yemeni long hilts - lots of trade blades to be found in those...


The regions sword makers have been copying blade stamps for hundreds of years. It is not necessarily a way of implying that the blade is by that maker but more a quality stamp perhaps in honour of great previous blade makers. Of course there is always the chance that it is simply a way to place a higher price on a blade. I shall be checking on the Museums collections for straight blades with original European stamps in a week or two. I see nothing sinister with running wolf copied squigles on swords here nor TAJ British India strikes. They were all done locally. I have met the sword joiners in Muscat who have since 1970 been uniting Omani longhilts on European blades still plentiful in the souk chain of supply mainly from Sanaa. These are tourist aimed.


If your point of view is that the straight sayf is directly related to the Omani battle sword - this makes no sense. The battle sword, at least all I've seen, don't have stamps. Why start on the dancing swords? It frankly makes no difference if the stamps are done locally or abroad - they are applied because they imply something. Quality usually, quality to be found in imported blades. Again, this is not a question of what is done now, it is a question of origins.

Your explanation provides no reasoning as to why stamps would start appearing on dance swords when they weren't on battle swords.



I think by that you mean why was the same hilt applied to the Omani Curved Kattara and the Omani Sayf at the same time when one was a fighting blade and the other wasnt? Firstly, I don't think the curved was only a weapon... but more importantly a badge of office for a Ships Captain or VIP including occasionally Royalty and important slave traders like Tippu Tip. I don't view this curved sword as a battle sword though it would certainly work if struck by one ! On the other hand it was not seen with shield ..because it was only an identifier of rank though on occasions perhaps it was unleashed in anger as a punisher..It too failed to make it into the history books as a battle sword... in fact that was not its intention; "Badge of Office" was.

It is also worth remembering that the straight Sayf and curved Kattara swords appeared inside the parameters of the gunpowder timeframe and that swords were on their way out as fighting weapons vice long barrels and cannon. The demise of the spear also happened early on in the gunpowder revolution.

My theory stands based on the above and on the Funoon and the fact that the Omani Battle Sword and Terrs were the original battlefield duo and never changed in a thousand years. The sword even becoming Iconised and by the designer Sheherazad; a wife of Saiid Sultan 1804 to 1856. (Probably about 1850)

The timeframe I seek to prove the appearance of the Sayf (and probably the Kattara) is within that rulers scope or a little before perhaps at the beginning of the Dynasty in 1744..That is where I am looking.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Unfortunately I have the exact same problems still as before. Moving from a flat, broad and unfullered blade to a long, more narrow fullered blade that happens to match up in profile with widely available European exports and have the application of blade stamps which weren't used on the older form (whether local or European in application makes no difference) plus the simultaneous uptake of European curved blades into the same hilt style... Quite a lot of coincidences to just discount I'd say...

What drove the uptake of European trade blades in most regions of the world can be broken down into a few basic areas.



Availability
Effectiveness/quality
Cost
Symbolism


They were widely available, they were of excellent quality steel and the cost was proportional to the first two attributes. Symbolism and status are a natural follow on from the first attributes.

For me, there are still some broad gaps in the theory you've presented and I'll try to distill them once more in bullet form, really I think there are two points to focus on.


The "coincidence" of triple fuller dance swords appearing at just about the time European trade blades of the same pattern are widely available
The use of stamps in Oman, even if locally copied. These ONLY can be attributed to an experience of European blades lending attributes to the marks - such as an indication of quality. Otherwise there is no reason for them to be copied and applied.


I'll just try to make myself absolutely clear, this has nothing to do with dancing, pageantry, combat or non combat. It's simply a question of where the blade form came from - no matter what the modern iterations are.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

Lets leave the combat/non combat question at the door for a bit. :) Its not really key to what I'm getting at.

I'm afraid I really fail to see this as much of a progression from the older Omani sword style. Flat, wider, shorter blades to longer, narrower fullered blades? Not much of a connection to my eyes...



See above - the Omani battle sword doesn't have many similarities. The Yemeni long hilts - lots of trade blades to be found in those...



If your point of view is that the straight sayf is directly related to the Omani battle sword - this makes no sense. The battle sword, at least all I've seen, don't have stamps. Why start on the dancing swords? It frankly makes no difference if the stamps are done locally or abroad - they are applied because they imply something. Quality usually, quality to be found in imported blades. Again, this is not a question of what is done now, it is a question of origins.

Your explanation provides no reasoning as to why stamps would start appearing on dance swords when they weren't on battle swords.




Unfortunately I have the exact same problems still as before. Moving from a flat, broad and unfullered blade to a long, more narrow fullered blade that happens to match up in profile with widely available European exports and have the application of blade stamps which weren't used on the older form (whether local or European in application makes no difference) plus the simultaneous uptake of European curved blades into the same hilt style... Quite a lot of coincidences to just discount I'd say...

What drove the uptake of European trade blades in most regions of the world can be broken down into a few basic areas.



Availability
Effectiveness/quality
Cost
Symbolism


They were widely available, they were of excellent quality steel and the cost was proportional to the first two attributes. Symbolism and status are a natural follow on from the first attributes.

For me, there are still some broad gaps in the theory you've presented and I'll try to distill them once more in bullet form, really I think there are two points to focus on.


The "coincidence" of triple fuller dance swords appearing at just about the time European trade blades of the same pattern are widely available
The use of stamps in Oman, even if locally copied. These ONLY can be attributed to an experience of European blades lending attributes to the marks - such as an indication of quality. Otherwise there is no reason for them to be copied and applied.


I'll just try to make myself absolutely clear, this has nothing to do with dancing, pageantry, combat or non combat. It's simply a question of where the blade form came from - no matter what the modern iterations are.

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain, I have not yet seen an old Omani blade with anything resembling an original European mark on it..I am at this time of the belief that in about Circa 1744 to 1850 the call went out for a pageantry sword to take over from the Omani Battle Sword in the traditions only... not for fighting. I have to say that I am continuing to persue both swords involvement and to discover for certain if the sword dances began when the flexible blade appeared or before with the Old Omani Battle Sword. Was the Omani Sayf really just invented as a pageantry sword by the new Dynasty or what? There is nothing in the entire Funoon to indicate that it was a battle field weapon ..but a great deal to indicate its honorific quality only. You would imagine that we would have a few battle names or some evidence to show some fighting took place with this dancing sword but there isn't any..

In viewing both swords and their similarities I have shown that this is a copy of the old Battle Sword but with no lethality. i.e. The blade is flexible to the point of being almost floppy. Its main and only quality is for buzzing in the air and as a mimic of the old weapon. Broadsword, sharp on both sides, spatulate tipped, used with the Terrs, and the hilt is very similar if you break it down with cuff style incorporated into the long hilt etc.

I intend to discover from Museum archives the exact date the sword appeared and who invented the concept.. We already have a Sultans wife in the frame for the Turban The Omani Royal Khanjar and The Omani Battle Sword iconic hilt. I hope to ID the originator of the Straight dancing sword.

Your note as to the symultaneous take up of the curved sword The Kattara is interesting and though I also believe it happenend at the same time I cannot prove it or when. Although the whats in a name debate is not relevant I have to say that Kuddara the Persian example is close ..on passing.. and has the heavy backblade and very slight curve although near the tip...but just to illustrate that other blades can be placed in the frame for the origin of the curved and of course the same applies to straight blades mainly out of the Ottoman stables.

The thread Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras? by Swedegreen I believe may hold clues to the Omani Sayfs beginnings.

Of course I agree about the fullers ... and in doing so also point out the myriad of Omani ones of varying length one, three and some going the whole hog right to the tip called Abu Falaj ... "The one with the irrigation channels". Anyway through trade the Omanis would have viewed all sorts of Fullered swords and at some point concluded that this was the style they wanted on the straight job... which I still say was brought on as the honorific shimmering pageantry sword and never a weapon.

That is "my understanding" and I have seen no evidence to the contrary but I have always driven the debate from the pageantry viewpoint ~ I mean I had no choice as no definitive details are yet to hand on its blade origin... but the pointers are there for local production... local stamping...and local use in the Traditions.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain, I have not yet seen an old Omani blade with anything resembling an original European mark on it..I am at this time of the belief that in about Circa 1744 to 1850 the call went out for a pageantry sword to take over from the Omani Battle Sword in the traditions only... not for fighting. I have to say that I am continuing to persue both swords involvement and to discover for certain if the sword dances began when the flexible blade appeared or before with the Old Omani Battle Sword. Was the Omani Sayf really just invented as a pageantry sword by the new Dynasty or what? There is nothing in the entire Funoon to indicate that it was a battle field weapon ..but a great deal to indicate its honorific quality only. You would imagine that we would have a few battle names or some evidence to show some fighting took place with this dancing sword but there isn't any..


Hi Ibrahiim,

I'll get into the marks again a bit below, but this is broadly why I didn't want to get caught up in the combat/non combat idea. I think its a bit counterproductive to examining the origins of the blade form and is leading to some preconceptions that are perhaps not entirely supported. I think you are certainly asking the right questions - i.e. why does this form pop up. Although the conclusions you are drawing aren't ones I can fully get behind. :)


In viewing both swords and their similarities I have shown that this is a copy of the old Battle Sword but with no lethality. i.e. The blade is flexible to the point of being almost floppy. Its main and only quality is for buzzing in the air and as a mimic of the old weapon. Broadsword, sharp on both sides, spatulate tipped, used with the Terrs, and the hilt is very similar if you break it down with cuff style incorporated into the long hilt etc.


This is where I just have to flat out disagree. There are major differences that I've pointed out between the two forms.


Length
Profile
Use of fullering
Use of blade marks


The characteristics of the straight sayf are quite different then than the older battle sword form. To say it is merely a copy of the older form without the former's functionality is difficult to support I think. If that where the case, there would be no reason to adapt the different hilt, no reason to lengthen the blade, no reason to do anything really other than increase the flexibility and even that raises some interesting questions...

There's also the interesting question of why flexibility is important in the dance... Because of aesthetics? Because flexibility used to be considered an important quality for selecting blades (in a combat/usage sense) then taken to an extreme for effect in the dance? As I recall you have mentioned in fact that the older style is quite stiff. So that produces another question, when and why the focus on flexible blades.

Just to touch briefly on the stamps again but I guess my original point wasn't expressed clearly enough... :) It is not a question of local stamping versus European stamping. It is purely a question of why local makers used stamps clearly taken from a foreign context. The only logical reason is because blades with those original stamps were known, respected for their quality and thus the stamps and marks were worth the effort to copy.


Of course I agree about the fullers ... and in doing so also point out the myriad of Omani ones of varying length one, three and some going the whole hog right to the tip called Abu Falaj ... "The one with the irrigation channels". Anyway through trade the Omanis would have viewed all sorts of Fullered swords and at some point concluded that this was the style they wanted on the straight job... which I still say was brought on as the honorific shimmering pageantry sword and never a weapon.


I'm glad you agree about the fullers - if you take the battle sword as a pattern of sword production before the straight sayf - the use of fullering is then due to outside influence. Why was it adopted? Why was this style chosen and how did they gain experience of this form if they weren't using these blades from a foreign context? It's not the sort of choice that I can imagining happening "overnight" and requires as a pre requisite: contact, use and evaluation. All of this points strongly to the use of straight blades, from a foreign source, in an Omani context.


That is "my understanding" and I have seen no evidence to the contrary but I have always driven the debate from the pageantry viewpoint ~ I mean I had no choice as no definitive details are yet to hand on its blade origin... but the pointers are there for local production... local stamping...and local use in the Traditions.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I've always found your efforts intriguing about this type and as you note your approach as always been from a certain viewpoint which I can understand. However I think the approach has certain inherent weaknesses (as do all approaches in varying respects). The main issue I see is that the pageantry viewpoint is inherently leading to often examining the form from the viewpoint of what the sword form is used for now and all that goes with that in a modern context - local production, local stamps etc. However that has left to the side the questions of origin. No matter if the blades are produced locally and the stamps locally done as well - where is the vector, the point of change which caused this to happen? Why such a close coincidence with European trade blades? Again, for me personally, its a little much to attribute to chance. The central question remains, as it has over the course of these discussions for me, the point of change between the older form and the newer. The idea that the newer is simply a development of the older form is still I think tenuous at best for all the reasons highlighted above.

Just a brief note when it comes to local sources and looking at modern versions of traditions like dance - I've had some experience with this in my own research areas. Unfortunately, and this is quite frustrating, the people inside the culture using a weapon are quite often not as interested in the history of it as we might be. The sort of detail we look for is often not preserved and I think conjecture over a period of several hundred years based on examining largely modern examples of a form is not conclusive. Particularly because you've noted that in a modern context the stiffer attributes of trade blades would not be desirable and thus unlikely to be encountered in the present day in the region - they aren't in demand.

This ties into your point about lack of evidence for an alternative to your theory - I personally think the evidence is there. It may be implied rather than a physical example in your hand - but it is there. From fullers to blade length. I've highlighted in past threads examples with likely European blades, always from collections and auctions outside the region. This ties directly into my point above - these are less likely to be encountered locally, going on all the detailed info you've given about the current situation of sayf manufacture and use - because nobody would want them now.

Hopefully the museums will have some more info they can make available to you of documented, older pieces. Ideally something 18th century that's known to have not been rehilted or otherwise changed. :)

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

I'll get into the marks again a bit below, but this is broadly why I didn't want to get caught up in the combat/non combat idea. I think its a bit counterproductive to examining the origins of the blade form and is leading to some preconceptions that are perhaps not entirely supported. I think you are certainly asking the right questions - i.e. why does this form pop up. Although the conclusions you are drawing aren't ones I can fully get behind. :)



This is where I just have to flat out disagree. There are major differences that I've pointed out between the two forms.


Length
Profile
Use of fullering
Use of blade marks


The characteristics of the straight sayf are quite different then than the older battle sword form. To say it is merely a copy of the older form without the former's functionality is difficult to support I think. If that where the case, there would be no reason to adapt the different hilt, no reason to lengthen the blade, no reason to do anything really other than increase the flexibility and even that raises some interesting questions...

There's also the interesting question of why flexibility is important in the dance... Because of aesthetics? Because flexibility used to be considered an important quality for selecting blades (in a combat/usage sense) then taken to an extreme for effect in the dance? As I recall you have mentioned in fact that the older style is quite stiff. So that produces another question, when and why the focus on flexible blades.

Just to touch briefly on the stamps again but I guess my original point wasn't expressed clearly enough... :) It is not a question of local stamping versus European stamping. It is purely a question of why local makers used stamps clearly taken from a foreign context. The only logical reason is because blades with those original stamps were known, respected for their quality and thus the stamps and marks were worth the effort to copy.



I'm glad you agree about the fullers - if you take the battle sword as a pattern of sword production before the straight sayf - the use of fullering is then due to outside influence. Why was it adopted? Why was this style chosen and how did they gain experience of this form if they weren't using these blades from a foreign context? It's not the sort of choice that I can imagining happening "overnight" and requires as a pre requisite: contact, use and evaluation. All of this points strongly to the use of straight blades, from a foreign source, in an Omani context.



I've always found your efforts intriguing about this type and as you note your approach as always been from a certain viewpoint which I can understand. However I think the approach has certain inherent weaknesses (as do all approaches in varying respects). The main issue I see is that the pageantry viewpoint is inherently leading to often examining the form from the viewpoint of what the sword form is used for now and all that goes with that in a modern context - local production, local stamps etc. However that has left to the side the questions of origin. No matter if the blades are produced locally and the stamps locally done as well - where is the vector, the point of change which caused this to happen? Why such a close coincidence with European trade blades? Again, for me personally, its a little much to attribute to chance. The central question remains, as it has over the course of these discussions for me, the point of change between the older form and the newer. The idea that the newer is simply a development of the older form is still I think tenuous at best for all the reasons highlighted above.

Just a brief note when it comes to local sources and looking at modern versions of traditions like dance - I've had some experience with this in my own research areas. Unfortunately, and this is quite frustrating, the people inside the culture using a weapon are quite often not as interested in the history of it as we might be. The sort of detail we look for is often not preserved and I think conjecture over a period of several hundred years based on examining largely modern examples of a form is not conclusive. Particularly because you've noted that in a modern context the stiffer attributes of trade blades would not be desirable and thus unlikely to be encountered in the present day in the region - they aren't in demand.

This ties into your point about lack of evidence for an alternative to your theory - I personally think the evidence is there. It may be implied rather than a physical example in your hand - but it is there. From fullers to blade length. I've highlighted in past threads examples with likely European blades, always from collections and auctions outside the region. This ties directly into my point above - these are less likely to be encountered locally, going on all the detailed info you've given about the current situation of sayf manufacture and use - because nobody would want them now.

Hopefully the museums will have some more info they can make available to you of documented, older pieces. Ideally something 18th century that's known to have not been rehilted or otherwise changed. :)

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain ~ Last point first.. I agree and hopefully I can get some details from Museum archives to give a pointer in the right direction.

I propose to debate the weapon now as a fighting sword in the 4 points discussed below.

The time criteria for this sword is quite tight. I think we are talking about a sword that appeared between 1750 and 1800. We know that the Rak makers were probably starting to make these in about 1950. That leaves quite a narrow fighting sword window of opportunity.

Swords were on their way out vice gunpowder weapons moreover this sword is very unsuitable for war. I have the following serious misgivings about the weapon ever being used as a Battle Sword viz;

1. It is spatulate tipped and thus useless for thrusting.. a prerequisite for doing battle against hard targets...body armour. Its Terrs shield would be useless agianst mounted infantry or ground troops. Can you envisage this being used in a war situation? Why would Omanis go for a battle weapon that is bendy and allow it to take over the battle role from such an excellent weapon as The Omani Battle Sword? Such an important decision and point in Omani military history as a total tactical sword change would be common knowledge and apparent in historical context in documents and in the swords literature but there is absolutely nothing ~ for good reason.

2. The war sword provided for by whom? The Europeans would hardly be in the market to create the blade in its bending format because it simply isnt a sword as such. What is more why would an Islamic country look to Euroipe to create its battle sword which would take over battle duties from its honorific Old Omani Battle Sword? An Islamic Icon. At the heart of Ibaathi Islam in Oman and centred on the interior capital Nizwa.. In the middle of a gunpowder revolution... in Oman. Why in all the Islamic documentation is there no clear indication of this provision?

3. The sword trail of European Swords the Trade Blade track is viewable clearly through Africa. No evidence of spin off of these blades is seen in African blades obtained from Europe. On the other hand take Ethiopian blades which are all over the red sea even mounted on every hilt from Muscat longhilts to Indian Tulvars. In other words there is no trail to follow. Why can we find no Omani blades produced in Europe on the African trade routes?

4. Masses of Swords went from Europe to Ethiopia etc... but they were all proper fighting blades with invariably throat stamps and original European marks... Omani Sayfs don't have these marks. Why is this?

Turning to other foreign suppliers which is to me half swallowable, for example; India and or Yemen. Frankly I am not convinced one way or the other that these countries are not in some way providers of ... in part ... of some of the blades. It could be that the sword style at Swede Greens thread and to which I have already pointed to in Kattara for comments may be responsible for the entire Omani dancing Sayf form; blade and hilt.

To my eye, however, (and having seen no evidence to the contrary yet) the Omani Sayf was locally made and since Nizwa was the seat of Ibaathi Islam I reckon it is there that we should also search. We know for certain that Gypsies known as Zutoot wandered the entire country making metal tools, dagger blades and swords on commission both before and during the period in question and fading out after 1970. Their time scale matches the timescale on the dancing sayfs.

I also must say that your posts are excellent, probing and detailed in analysis of what we are all trying to achieve and that I am filled with enthusiasm by your points raised... which may after all be quite correct. This would not be the first time I have gone after the red herring! I look forward to seeing what the museums have to say.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ~ Last point first.. I agree and hopefully I can get some details from Museum archives to give a pointer in the right direction.

I propose to debate the weapon now as a fighting sword in the 4 points discussed below.


Hi Ibrahiim,

I'll just again say I think the combat or non combat question is irrelevant at the moment and is causing more confusion and questions than it needs to. :) See below...


The time criteria for this sword is quite tight. I think we are talking about a sword that appeared between 1750 and 1800. We know that the Rak makers were probably starting to make these in about 1950. That leaves quite a narrow fighting sword window of opportunity.

Swords were on their way out vice gunpowder weapons moreover this sword is very unsuitable for war. I have the following serious misgivings about the weapon ever being used as a Battle Sword viz;


Agree completely about the influence of muskets and other firearms however:


1. It is spatulate tipped and thus useless for thrusting.. a prerequisite for doing battle against hard targets...body armour. Its Terrs shield would be useless agianst mounted infantry or ground troops. Can you envisage this being used in a war situation? Why would Omanis go for a battle weapon that is bendy and allow it to take over the battle role from such an excellent weapon as The Omani Battle Sword? Such an important decision and point in Omani military history as a total tactical sword change would be common knowledge and apparent in historical context in documents and in the swords literature but there is absolutely nothing ~ for good reason.


I think perhaps you are misunderstanding some of my previous points. I am not talking about these modern, flexible blades in a combat sense.

I am talking about where the form (not the flexibility aspect) was drawn from.


2. The war sword provided for by whom? The Europeans would hardly be in the market to create the blade in its bending format because it simply isnt a sword as such. What is more why would an Islamic country look to Euroipe to create its battle sword which would take over battle duties from its honorific Old Omani Battle Sword? An Islamic Icon. At the heart of Ibaathi Islam in Oman and centred on the interior capital Nizwa.. In the middle of a gunpowder revolution... in Oman. Why in all the Islamic documentation is there no clear indication of this provision?


Again, see above I'm not talking about the modern flexible blades.


3. The sword trail of European Swords the Trade Blade track is viewable clearly through Africa. No evidence of spin off of these blades is seen in African blades obtained from Europe. On the other hand take Ethiopian blades which are all over the red sea even mounted on every hilt from Muscat longhilts to Indian Tulvars. In other words there is no trail to follow. Why can we find no Omani blades produced in Europe on the African trade routes?


Because again, I'm not talking about blades with the flexibility aspect you are referencing. :) I'm discussing the common European trade blades - not some European trade blade with massive flex. So yes, in that sense you are talking about something that doesn't exist. :)


4. Masses of Swords went from Europe to Ethiopia etc... but they were all proper fighting blades with invariably throat stamps and original European marks... Omani Sayfs don't have these marks. Why is this?


Because as you've said many times, in a modern context fighting blades aren't desirable. I've shown in previous threads sayfs with stiff blades and European marks. I can go and dig them out again I guess. :) Heck, I've seen fullered European blades on Omani battle sword hilts as well. :)


Turning to other foreign suppliers which is to me half swallowable, for example; India and or Yemen. Frankly I am not convinced one way or the other that these countries are not in some way providers of ... in part ... of some of the blades. It could be that the sword style at Swede Greens thread and to which I have already pointed to in Kattara for comments may be responsible for the entire Omani dancing Sayf form; blade and hilt.


I think your last sentence is probably correct. The dancing sayf is simply a progression from a style derived from mating European trade blades to local hilts. Which explains the trade blade inspired shape and use of fullers on dance blades.

I think you have perhaps misinterpreted a few of my points because you are focusing on the flex aspect.


I'm not talking about some trade blade with the flex of the dancing blades. I'm only talking about where the form/style of the flexible and locally made blades was taken from.
That, from the evidence you've provided, trade blades proper are unlikely to be found in Omani hilts in the present day because they are not desirable - this doesn't mean this was always the case.
That there's an obvious and very close link to other long hilted and trade blade using forms in neighboring areas.


Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

I'll just again say I think the combat or non combat question is irrelevant at the moment and is causing more confusion and questions than it needs to. :) See below...



Agree completely about the influence of muskets and other firearms however:



I think perhaps you are misunderstanding some of my previous points. I am not talking about these modern, flexible blades in a combat sense.

I am talking about where the form (not the flexibility aspect) was drawn from.



Again, see above I'm not talking about the modern flexible blades.



Because again, I'm not talking about blades with the flexibility aspect you are referencing. :) I'm discussing the common European trade blades - not some European trade blade with massive flex. So yes, in that sense you are talking about something that doesn't exist. :)



Because as you've said many times, in a modern context fighting blades aren't desirable. I've shown in previous threads sayfs with stiff blades and European marks. I can go and dig them out again I guess. :) Heck, I've seen fullered European blades on Omani battle sword hilts as well. :)



I think your last sentence is probably correct. The dancing sayf is simply a progression from a style derived from mating European trade blades to local hilts. Which explains the trade blade inspired shape and use of fullers on dance blades.

I think you have perhaps misinterpreted a few of my points because you are focusing on the flex aspect.


I'm not talking about some trade blade with the flex of the dancing blades. I'm only talking about where the form/style of the flexible and locally made blades was taken from.
That, from the evidence you've provided, trade blades proper are unlikely to be found in Omani hilts in the present day because they are not desirable - this doesn't mean this was always the case.
That there's an obvious and very close link to other long hilted and trade blade using forms in neighboring areas.


Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ So the question as far as you are concerned is; What influence if any did European Trade Blades have on the Omani Sayf?

My opinion is that the Omani Sayf may have no root at all in the European Trade blade system/style except in the odd European(copied) inscription on a few blades. My attention is focussed on the Yemeni derivative at Swedegreens thread which in turn copied style from Ottoman through Mamluke to Abassiid design. It is a serious point for research in Muscat Museum where I hope to report from soon. I shall certainly be on the lookout for any early Omani Sayfs to consider the Trade blade question.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All. Note to library on the origin of Omani Sayf style.

Here for comparison is the form of design style which may be responsible for the general design of the Dancing Sword (hilt and blade). The Straight Omani Sayf.

(In this respect the flexibility question is totally ignored..however newcomers may note that the Omani Sayf is flexible up to 90 degree bend and more at the tip whilst the Yemeni sword is relatively stiff and bends a few inches only.)

Picture 1.shows the more typical blade for the Yemeni weapon however other blades have been fitted to similar hilts such as the Ethiopian(German) blade shown lower.

Another picture demonstrates the similiarity between a sword in the Istanbul museum and the Yemeni sword.

As a transitional form there are many similarities in the Omani Sayf and the Yemeni sword. See picture 4. Are they linked?

It is posed here as an open question for comments.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ~ So the question as far as you are concerned is; What influence if any did European Trade Blades have on the Omani Sayf?

My opinion is that the Omani Sayf may have no root at all in the European Trade blade system/style except in the odd European(copied) inscription on a few blades. My attention is focussed on the Yemeni derivative at Swedegreens thread which in turn copied style from Ottoman through Mamluke to Abassiid design. It is a serious point for research in Muscat Museum where I hope to report from soon. I shall certainly be on the lookout for any early Omani Sayfs to consider the Trade blade question.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

And therein lies my overall point. :)

In my opinion the blades in the thread you reference show clear European influence with the deep, central fullers, overall size and the period they are from. Whether those particular examples have European blades - the influence, to my eyes is there. :)

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

And therein lies my overall point. :)

In my opinion the blades in the thread you reference show clear European influence with the deep, central fullers, overall size and the period they are from. Whether those particular examples have European blades - the influence, to my eyes is there. :)

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain~ I can at a stretch agree on ''influence'' but caution on size since I've never seen two Omani Blades the same length width or with the same combination of fullers. I hope you can see the post above at #15 that I place as a possible contender for style copy... taking the ball rather away in another direction.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain~ I can at a stretch agree on ''influence'' but caution on size since I've never seen two Omani Blades the same length width or with the same combination of fullers. I hope you can see the post above at #15 that I place as a possible contender for style copy... taking the ball rather away in another direction.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

I saw your post with images - can't say I see the Mamluk connection. The image you shows are dramatically different blade profiles from a very different time period than the point in time when the straight sayf was likely being introduced.

Regarding size, blade length is effected by hilting, including rehilting. Most straight sayf fall within 27-33 inches are so for blade length. I've seen plenty of images of sayf with similar triple fuller layouts, plenty with single fuller layouts...

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

I saw your post with images - can't say I see the Mamluk connection. The image you shows are dramatically different blade profiles from a very different time period than the point in time when the straight sayf was likely being introduced.

Regarding size, blade length is effected by hilting, including rehilting. Most straight sayf fall within 27-33 inches are so for blade length. I've seen plenty of images of sayf with similar triple fuller layouts, plenty with single fuller layouts...

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. ;) See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. ;) See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain ~Yes all very interesting... but can you envisage Yemen under intense Ottoman control/ influence previously... taking blades off Europe for these swords when they had a perfectly reasonable sword manufacturing base in the Hadramaut?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ~Yes all very interesting... but can you envisage Yemen under intense Ottoman control/ influence previously... taking blades off Europe for these swords when they had a perfectly reasonable sword manufacturing base in the Hadramaut?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

As always, it relates to cost and quality. Did Hadramaut have water driven hammers? One of the main reasons behind the economical production of blades in Solingen from a fairly early period... The ability to produce quality blades locally isn't necessarily an indication they could be produced cheaply or in a competitive volume.

By the 16th century Solingen was already making use of water driven mechanical hammers to increase the production of blade blanks. This was unusual in Europe at the time and as far as I know was not an industrial technique common in the Ottoman empire or Yemen... This industrialization only increased with time. I would also point out, to my understanding the Ottomans lost control of Yemen in the mid 17th century (principally Sana'a)?

Mechanical production of blade blanks increased production time about 5-6x over hand forging.

Solingen was the force it was because of the industrial tools they employed - allowing for a competitive edge, even when long distance transportation was factored in.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

As always, it relates to cost and quality. Did Hadramaut have water driven hammers? One of the main reasons behind the economical production of blades in Solingen from a fairly early period... The ability to produce quality blades locally isn't necessarily an indication they could be produced cheaply or in a competitive volume.

By the 16th century Solingen was already making use of water driven mechanical hammers to increase the production of blade blanks. This was unusual in Europe at the time and as far as I know was not an industrial technique common in the Ottoman empire or Yemen... This industrialization only increased with time. I would also point out, to my understanding the Ottomans lost control of Yemen in the mid 17th century (principally Sana'a)?

Mechanical production of blade blanks increased production time about 5-6x over hand forging.

Solingen was the force it was because of the industrial tools they employed - allowing for a competitive edge, even when long distance transportation was factored in.

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain.. Its odd but I was thinking about water hammers and if the Hadramaut had them. I will try to delve into that. Normally I would simply go and have a look but as you know its not possible. Further to that... looking at the Yemeni blades they just dont look like European blades. They do look mildly Red Sea perhaps from Turkish sources. However that is slightly off centre since we are actually looking at where were the early Omani Sayf dancing "blades" made (other than in Oman) . More as it unfolds.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain.. Its odd but I was thinking about water hammers and if the Hadramaut had them. I will try to delve into that. Normally I would simply go and have a look but as you know its not possible. Further to that... looking at the Yemeni blades they just dont look like European blades. They do look mildly Red Sea perhaps from Turkish sources. However that is slightly off centre since we are actually looking at where were the early Omani Sayf dancing "blades" made (other than in Oman) . More as it unfolds.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

This is a point where we will just have to disagree - the Yemeni blades, or blades found in Yemeni hilts to be more precise - do look European or often are European. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on that point. :) I'm rather curious what Turkish blades you think have that profile, a deep single fuller and are from that period... Anyways, that's perhaps a topic for another time.

As always, I'll be interested what you find in the museums, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of a "smoking gun" one way or the other.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim,

This is a point where we will just have to disagree - the Yemeni blades, or blades found in Yemeni hilts to be more precise - do look European or often are European. I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on that point. :) I'm rather curious what Turkish blades you think have that profile, a deep single fuller and are from that period... Anyways, that's perhaps a topic for another time.

As always, I'll be interested what you find in the museums, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of a "smoking gun" one way or the other.

Cheers,

Iain


Salaams Iain... European blades certainly did get fitted up to Yemeni hilts absolutely agreed but not (I suspect) the type of straight, broad, virtually nonflexing long Yemeni blades on the foto below. I think these are Ottoman linked. I have pushed onto pictures below(not in order) all the steps between the Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani swords which makes it clear where my line of enquiry is going...to the museums!! :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Iain]

Salaams Iain... European blades certainly did get fitted up to Yemeni hilts absolutely agreed but not (I suspect) the type of straight broad virtually nonflexing long Yemeni blades on the foto below. I think these are Ottoman linked.

Huge difference in the geometry and fullers. ;) I see what you are getting at, but one straight, single fuller pattern is not quite like another. Notice the thickness, profile, geometry of the edges, relative width of the fullers among many other factors.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Huge difference in the geometry and fullers. ;) I see what you are getting at, but one straight, single fuller pattern is not quite like another. Notice the thickness, profile, geometry of the edges, relative width of the fullers among many other factors.


Salaams Iain ~Ya but influence? :shrug: European Trade or somewhere else?
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain ~Ya but influence? :shrug: European Trade or somewhere else?
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I'm not aware of the profile seen in the image of Yemeni long hilts being found in Ottoman work. The comparison images you showed don't really work for the reasons highlighted above.

I am aware of it in European trade blades - in fact very common in these blades... I for one can draw certain conclusions from that. Deductive logic says... :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I'm not aware of the profile seen in the image of Yemeni long hilts being found in Ottoman work. The comparison images you showed don't really work for the reasons highlighted above.

I am aware of it in European trade blades - in fact very common in these blades... I for one can draw certain conclusions from that. Deductive logic says... :)


Salaams Iain ..It is by no means solved as yet.

1. First point ~ the 2nd picture above shows a man holding sword, Mamluke style, comparable with the Mamlukes in the Ottoman museum also shown in picture 4 ~
2. The man holding sword is I believe the same blade "format" as the Yemeni Sayfs... perhaps infact partly the origin of it.
3. The hilts however are where my main emphasis is placed. Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni, Omani all on long blades though in the transition finally quite different blades...ending with the flexible Omani dancing style.

I view all this as influence and aim to consider the Yemeni Sayf as a contender for the origin of species of the Omani dancing sword... aware as always that there are many possibilities but the transition from long Yemeni hilt (and or blade) and prior to that Ottoman hilt (and or blade) to long Omani Hilt (and or blade) seems plausible.

However, I hope I'm not wasting too much ink ! :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Whilst I note that the above interesting discussion has for the present discounted the issue of flexibility, I have just one question for a straight "yes" or "no" answer please.
Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?
If not, then it would be reasonable to assume that those that DO NOT, were, or COULD have been, used for combat, and therefore could not accurately be called Dancing Swords. I have a Sayf in my collection which has only about 2" flex....pic below.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Whilst I note that the above interesting discussion has for the present discounted the issue of flexibility, I have just one question for a straight "yes" or "no" answer please.
Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?
If not, then it would be reasonable to assume that those that DO NOT, were, or COULD have been, used for combat, and therefore could not accurately be called Dancing Swords. I have a Sayf in my collection which has only about 2" flex....pic below.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ I once went to an interview in which the interviewer would only answer questions with two words... either "yes" or "no".

In "Ethnographics" I doubt the same technique can be applied.

The first point is that not all blades danced with in Oman are straight flexible ones... with nothing else to hand dancers use pretty well anything similar including rifles, camel sticks and any variety of sword avialable...I can show the mimic fighting taking place with a curved sword and a sandal for a shield. So it would be quite wrong to be so specific.

Your question (though by no means a closed or completed querry) asks; Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?

Technically I think so. All the ones I have seen and handled are flexible but... and the BUT is big ... There appear to be swords from probably the Red Sea region that are not flexible ... that look like Omani Dancing Swords but which are not flexible..and no-one knows why. Logically they could be rehilts of otherwise previous fighting blades (foreign) on Omani Hilts. We know for example that Muscat since the 70s has been active in the business of rehilting all manner of foreign blades onto Omani Long Hilts. We know that these blades were provided from Sanaa and several have Ethiopian blades originally German. The Red Sea link is therefor highly likely. Your blade may be related to the blade at Kattara for comments #1. The apparent blade cross section from what I can see... makes that blade and yours similar ... not a flat springy dancing blade but stiff..with a wing shaped cross section.

Naturally there is a very big difference in the application between wholly flexible and wholly stiff blades, though, try as I might, I still haven't unearthed the reason why these odd stiff variants turn up now and again mounted on Omani long hilts, however, since I'm in the Muscat Museums next week I will be giving that one a lot of time.

As to the yes or no answer technique I repeat that ethnographic detective work can never be so limited..The Forum would only be about two pages long based on that structure...yes or no ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ I once went to an interview in which the interviewer would only answer questions with two words... either "yes" or "no".

In "Ethnographics" I doubt the same technique can be applied.

The first point is that not all blades danced with in Oman are straight flexible ones... with nothing else to hand dancers use pretty well anything similar including rifles, camel sticks and any variety of sword avialable...I can show the mimic fighting taking place with a curved sword and a sandal for a shield. So it would be quite wrong to be so specific.

Your question (though by no means a closed or completed querry) asks; Do ALL the Straight bladed Omani Sayfs have a "90 degree" flex or not?

Technically I think so. All the ones I have seen and handled are flexible but... and the BUT is big ... There appear to be swords from probably the Red Sea region that are not flexible ... that look like Omani Dancing Swords but which are not flexible..and no-one knows why. Logically they could be rehilts of otherwise previous fighting blades (foreign) on Omani Hilts. We know for example that Muscat since the 70s has been active in the business of rehilting all manner of foreign blades onto Omani Long Hilts. We know that these blades were provided from Sanaa and several have Ethiopian blades originally German. The Red Sea link is therefor highly likely. Your blade may be related to the blade at Kattara for comments #1. The apparent blade cross section from what I can see... makes that blade and yours similar ... not a flat springy dancing blade but stiff..with a wing shaped cross section.

Naturally there is a very big difference in the application between wholly flexible and wholly stiff blades, though, try as I might, I still haven't unearthed the reason why these odd stiff variants turn up now and again mounted on Omani long hilts, however, since I'm in the Muscat Museums next week I will be giving that one a lot of time.

As to the yes or no answer technique I repeat that ethnographic detective work can never be so limited..The Forum would only be about two pages long based on that structure...yes or no ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.
OK Let me rephrase the question......Do ALL the straight bladed Omani swords which you have in your workshop, and describe as Omani, have "90 degree" flexible blades?
What I am trying to establish here, is that there was POSSIBLY a "combat" version of this sword in it's own right.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

QUOTE=kahnjar1]OK Let me rephrase the question......Do ALL the straight bladed Omani swords which you have in your workshop, and describe as Omani, have "90 degree" flexible blades?
What I am trying to establish here, is that there was POSSIBLY a "combat" version of this sword in it's own right.[/QUOTE]


Salaams kahnjar1 . Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight.

None of the dancing swords I have ever seen are stiff.

Now the question we are all chasing down is... What about these stiff blades like the one you have? They are made differently being wing shaped in cross section but are they fighting swords or dancing ?... Technically they must be weapons but were fitted to Omani hilts when, why...and where? They could be part of the ensemble of swords fitted up in Muscat in the last 40 years... after all they have cross hilted thousands of swords.

That is one of the questions I have for the museum people.

In the meantime we may simply have a very odd situation we can't solve yet but somewhere down the line this one should unravel ~ meanwhile it's ringfenced.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

QUOTE=kahnjar1]OK Let me rephrase the question......Do ALL the straight bladed Omani swords which you have in your workshop, and describe as Omani, have "90 degree" flexible blades?
What I am trying to establish here, is that there was POSSIBLY a "combat" version of this sword in it's own right.


Salaams kahnjar1 . Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight.

None of the dancing swords I have ever seen are stiff.

Now the question we are all chasing down is... What about these stiff blades like the one you have? They are made differently being wing shaped in cross section but are they fighting swords or dancing ?... Technically they must be weapons but were fitted to Omani hilts when, why...and where? They could be part of the ensemble of swords fitted up in Muscat in the last 40 years... after all they have cross hilted thousands of swords.

That is one of the questions I have for the museum people.

In the meantime we may simply have a very odd situation we can't solve yet but somewhere down the line this one should unravel ~ meanwhile it's ringfenced.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.[/QUOTE]
Salaams Ibrahiim,

My question is still not answered......The Omani Sayfs in your workshop....are they ALL "90 degree"flexible blades (dancing swords)?

You state that those with 2" or so flexible blades, or stiff blades are not of Omani origin, so I assume that the above is true as you describe all your straight Sayfs as Omani. Please confirm.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams kahnjar1 . Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight.

None of the dancing swords I have ever seen are stiff.

Now the question we are all chasing down is... What about these stiff blades like the one you have? They are made differently being wing shaped in cross section but are they fighting swords or dancing ?... Technically they must be weapons but were fitted to Omani hilts when, why...and where? They could be part of the ensemble of swords fitted up in Muscat in the last 40 years... after all they have cross hilted thousands of swords.

That is one of the questions I have for the museum people.

In the meantime we may simply have a very odd situation we can't solve yet but somewhere down the line this one should unravel ~ meanwhile it's ringfenced.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Salaams Ibrahiim,

My question is still not answered......The Omani Sayfs in your workshop....are they ALL "90 degree"flexible blades (dancing swords)?

You state that those with 2" or so flexible blades, or stiff blades are not of Omani origin, so I assume that the above is true as you describe all your straight Sayfs as Omani. Please confirm.[/QUOTE]


Salaams, I refer you to the first line above in which I say... Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight. That applies to all of the Omani dancing swords in my collection... my workshop is not a sword "making" facility.

All the sword making workshops that I know of continue to turn out only flexible dancing swords in the format I describe.

It has always been my suspicion that the straight stiff variant "blade" is a Red Sea style previously a fighting blade perhaps Ottoman, Ethiopian Yemeni or even Algerian. For a comparison on an Omani hilt on a blade with a "similar" blade mark almost identical to an Algerian gun mark see Kattara for comments # 149 and #176.

My thoughts on Muscat rehilting are already placed.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Khanjar 1 ~ SO TO BE QUITE CLEAR ~

Yes all the Omani Sayfs ... The straight Omani Dancing swords bend massively... at least through 90 degrees and return immediately to straight. That applies to all of the Omani dancing swords in my collection... my workshop is not a sword "making" facility.

All the sword making workshops that I know of continue to turn out only flexible dancing swords in the format I describe.

It has always been my suspicion that the straight stiff variant "blade" is a Red Sea style previously a fighting blade perhaps Ottoman, Ethiopian Yemeni or even Algerian. For a comparison on an Omani hilt on a blade with a "similar" blade mark almost identical to an Algerian gun mark see Kattara for comments # 149 and #176.

My thoughts on Muscat rehilting are already placed.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Update in Muscat.

I have tracked a number of points on the straight flexible dancing sword... The Omani Sayf. This is for confirmation (though it is already agreed by the Museums via another collector and close colleague whom I interviewed in Muscat yesterday) that precisely as I have explained previously the sword is purely for dancing and since its inception at the beginning of the current Albusaid Dynasty which I assume is 1744 though 1799 is also claimed...its role has been in the pageants as described and never... absolutely never as a weapon of war. The key proof is that this weapon was invented to march past and honour the Dynastic Albusaid monarch and not some previous family ruler...Obvious really ! :) The blade is supposed to be Omani, however, where other occasional foreign neighboring or distant blades appear it makes absolutely no difference to the core theme... Dancing Sword only. I am in the Museums on Tuesday next to collect the proof.
This is therefor simply an update..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes;
List of rulers that have been paraded past by tribesmen using the Straight Omani Sayf;

Al Bu Said Dynasty (1749–Present)
Abu Hilal Ahmad bin Said
10 June 1744
15 December 1783

Said bin Ahmad
15 December 1783
1784
Last direct male descendant of Al Bu Said to hold the office of Imam. He abdicated secular power to his son and retired to Rustaq where he died in 1803.

Hamad bin Said
1784
13 March 1792

Sultan bin Ahmad
13 March 1792
20 November 1804

Salim I bin Sultan and Said II bin Sultan
20 November 1804
14 September 1806
Co-Rulers

Said II bin Sultan
14 September 1806
19 October 1856 Sole Ruler

Thuwaini bin Said
19 October 1856
11 February 1866
Killed

Salim II bin Thuwaini
11 February 1866
3 October 1868
Killed

Azzan bin Qais
3 October 1868
30 January 1871
Killed

Turki bin Said
30 January 1871
4 June 1888

Faisal bin Turki
4 June 1888
9 October 1913
British protectorate imposed on 20 March 1891[28][29]

Taimur bin Feisal
9 October 1913
10 February 1932
Abdicated

Said III bin Taimur
10 February 1932
23 July 1970
Deposed

Qaboos bin Said

23 July 1970
Present
British protectorate ended on 2 December 1971

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Update in Muscat.

I have tracked a number of points on the straight flexible dancing sword... The Omani Sayf. This is for confirmation (though it is already agreed by the Museums via another collector and close colleague whom I interviewed in Muscat yesterday) that precisely as I have explained previously the sword is purely for dancing and since its inception at the beginning of the current Albusaid Dynasty which I assume is 1744 though 1799 is also claimed...its role has been in the pageants as described and never... absolutely never as a weapon of war. The key proof is that this weapon was invented to march past and honour the Dynastic Albusaid monarch and not some previous family ruler...Obvious really ! :) The blade is supposed to be Omani, however, where other occasional foreign neighboring or distant blades appear it makes absolutely no difference to the core theme... Dancing Sword only. I am in the Museums on Tuesday next to collect the proof.
This is therefor simply an update..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes;
List of rulers that have been paraded past by tribesmen using the Straight Omani Sayf;

Al Bu Said Dynasty (1749–Present)
Abu Hilal Ahmad bin Said
10 June 1744
15 December 1783

Said bin Ahmad
15 December 1783
1784
Last direct male descendant of Al Bu Said to hold the office of Imam. He abdicated secular power to his son and retired to Rustaq where he died in 1803.

Hamad bin Said
1784
13 March 1792

Sultan bin Ahmad
13 March 1792
20 November 1804

Salim I bin Sultan and Said II bin Sultan
20 November 1804
14 September 1806
Co-Rulers

Said II bin Sultan
14 September 1806
19 October 1856 Sole Ruler

Thuwaini bin Said
19 October 1856
11 February 1866
Killed

Salim II bin Thuwaini
11 February 1866
3 October 1868
Killed

Azzan bin Qais
3 October 1868
30 January 1871
Killed

Turki bin Said
30 January 1871
4 June 1888

Faisal bin Turki
4 June 1888
9 October 1913
British protectorate imposed on 20 March 1891[28][29]

Taimur bin Feisal
9 October 1913
10 February 1932
Abdicated

Said III bin Taimur
10 February 1932
23 July 1970
Deposed

Qaboos bin Said

23 July 1970
Present
British protectorate ended on 2 December 1971



Salaams All~ The Museums support my long held theory that the Omani Straight Dancing Sword (The Omani Sayf) never saw action as a fighting blade, however, it was and is the Royal chosen form of Dynastic pageantry weapon with which to salute the Albusaid rulers down the ages.... from the start ... 1744.

It appears clear that the hilt transferred from the Kattara (A Ships Merchant, Slave Captains sword) and that the blade was sharpened on both edges and spatulate tipped and given the Terrs Shield in Honour of the Old Omani Battle Swords or the bearers of ... who went before.

The choice of very flexible, shimmering, broadsword was deliberate since the weapon is ideally suited for Royal march past by massed tribesmen and pageant and can be buzzed and thrown in the air and mock fought with relatively safely.

This was not a European import but was produced locally. European swords, moreover, were fighting weapons by definition... The Sayf was not.

Production continues locally today in Mussandam and Salalah for both the local market and the tourists.

The mark of a dancing sword is its ability to bend easily through 90 degrees from the tip and when released springs straight again immediately.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams All~ The Museums support my long held theory that the Omani Straight Dancing Sword (The Omani Sayf) never saw action as a fighting blade, however, it was and is the Royal chosen form of Dynastic pageantry weapon with which to salute the Albusaid rulers down the ages.... from the start ... 1744.

It appears clear that the hilt transferred from the Kattara (A Ships Merchant, Slave Captains sword) and that the blade was sharpened on both edges and spatulate tipped and given the Terrs Shield in Honour of the Old Omani Battle Swords or the bearers of ... who went before.

The choice of very flexible, shimmering, broadsword was deliberate since the weapon is ideally suited for Royal march past by massed tribesmen and pageant and can be buzzed and thrown in the air and mock fought with relatively safely.

This was not a European import but was produced locally. European swords, moreover, were fighting weapons by definition... The Sayf was not.

Production continues locally today in Mussandam and Salalah for both the local market and the tourists.

The mark of a dancing sword is its ability to bend easily through 90 degrees from the tip and when released springs straight again immediately.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
OK so where does the NON flexible straight Omani sword fit into your picture?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

OK so where does the NON flexible straight Omani sword fit into your picture?


Salaams khanjar 1,
I dont believe it is "my picture"... since the essence of study so far as I am concerned shines a "forum" light into dark recesses otherwise undiscovered or shrouded in mystery... as this one has been. Thus the picture belongs to all of us.

Your question is about the straight Omani Dancing sword or do you percieve that there is another straight sword with a conical hilt that isn't flexible ? There isn't... There is only a straight dancer so any sword that is described as straight two edged on a conical hilt which looks like the standard Omani Sayf .. (but isn't because its not flexible) is probably a red sea blade rehilted. It may be the case with your #30. :shrug:

I think a lot of these were floated through Muscat souk but were deliberately put together as tourist items. Personally I suggest that a few could be decent fighting blades and as I have said before even of Schiavona parentage and some from the Solingen stables sporting the Solingen stamp and STAMM STAMM. (See Kattara for comments #228 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=8&pp=30&highlight=kattara+comments.)

There is a degree of irony here, since, surely a blade that was a fighting blade should be regarded as worth more collectably than say a pageantry and dancing blade only?

Regarding the Omani Sayf; Visitors... some very prominent and knowlegeable to boot including several military ones during the 18th and 19th C have been hoodwinked by this fascinating "weapon" not surprisingly because of its apparent wickedly sharp blade, its seemingly broadsword lethality, the amazing mimic fighting pageant...and of course its attendant battle shield " The Terrs."

We have shown, however, the purely accidental nature of this mistake which incidentally occured whilst the other great smokescreen was being thrown up... that of gunpowder weapons which heralded the demise of the other great Omani weapon;The Spear. That period also witnessed the slide from grace of the absolutely Omani blade; "The Old Omani Battle Sword" which even today holds an honourable place as a fighting Icon with a royal blessing on a redesigned Sayiddiyah hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BANTARU]

have any examples of the Omani Spear or spears from the Gulf Regions/Yemen survived to date?

[kahnjar1]

Salaams khanjar 1,
I dont believe it is "my picture"... since the essence of study so far as I am concerned shines a "forum" light into dark recesses otherwise undiscovered or shrouded in mystery... as this one has been. Thus the picture belongs to all of us.

Your question is about the straight Omani Dancing sword or do you percieve that there is another straight sword with a conical hilt that isn't flexible ? There isn't... There is only a straight dancer so any sword that is described as straight two edged on a conical hilt which looks like the standard Omani Sayf .. (but isn't because its not flexible) is probably a red sea blade rehilted. It may be the case with your #30. :shrug:

I think a lot of these were floated through Muscat souk but were deliberately put together as tourist items. Personally I suggest that a few could be decent fighting blades and as I have said before even of Schiavona parentage and some from the Solingen stables sporting the Solingen stamp and STAMM STAMM. (See Kattara for comments #228 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=8&pp=30&highlight=kattara+comments.)

There is a degree of irony here, since, surely a blade that was a fighting blade should be regarded as worth more collectably than say a pageantry and dancing blade only?

Regarding the Omani Sayf; Visitors... some very prominent and knowlegeable to boot including several military ones during the 18th and 19th C have been hoodwinked by this fascinating "weapon" not surprisingly because of its apparent wickedly sharp blade, its seemingly broadsword lethality, the amazing mimic fighting pageant...and of course its attendant battle shield " The Terrs."

We have shown, however, the purely accidental nature of this mistake which incidentally occured whilst the other great smokescreen was being thrown up... that of gunpowder weapons which heralded the demise of the other great Omani weapon;The Spear. That period also witnessed the slide from grace of the absolutely Omani blade; "The Old Omani Battle Sword" which even today holds an honourable place as a fighting Icon with a royal blessing on a redesigned Sayiddiyah hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
:confused: :confused:
My question was NOT about the straight DANCING sword. It was about the straight bladed NON (only approx. 2" flex) flexible Omani sword.
For you to say that these do not exist (para 2 above) is IMHO not true, as many of these are in collections of Forumites, and for that matter respected dealers.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:confused: :confused:
My question was NOT about the straight DANCING sword. It was about the straight bladed NON (only approx. 2" flex) flexible Omani sword.
For you to say that these do not exist (para 2 above) is IMHO not true, as many of these are in collections of Forumites, and for that matter respected dealers.


Salaams ~ No I didn't say they don't exist... its just that if a non flexi blade has been fitted onto a long conical Omani hilt it isn't a dancing sword... its a mixture of another blade on an Omani long hilt... probably a Red Sea variant ...and quite likely to have been so fitted for commercial reasons...not least the tourism market.( Muscat has been doing that since 1970) I can prove, because I know the people who have done the conversions, that hundreds or probably thousands of these mixes have been sold via Muscat main souk to Tourists from all over the world.

Anyone so inclined could technically fit any blade from anywhere onto Omani long hilts but that wouldn't make them an Omani dancing sword ... insofar as swords are concerned the breed is not interchangeable simply by adding a long Omani Hilt.

To be clear; if the blade is non flexible and fitted to an Omani long hilt the indicators are it is not a dancing blade and that no such interim sword exists except by this accident of cross breeding caused by commercial exploitation in the market...

The whole point about flexibility is in the reason for its very existence and invention as a pageantry only sword.

Whilst my letter is about 50 years too late I am afraid that it is also not my fault :) ~ such is life ~ as I have already pointed out the provenance on such a blade could well exceed the importance of a mere dancing sword and could even be Schiavona or as in the case of the weapon at Kattara for comments #149 a much rarer Algerian weapon the stamp of which is shown to be Algerian at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=5&pp=30&highlight=kattara+comments

There is always the strong possibility that these stiffer blades are related to Mamluk style.

You in fact have a sword with the similar dimensions of such a possibility and could it not masquerade as an Omani Dancing Sword if it was on a long Omani Hilt ? ... see #81 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=3&pp=30&highlight=kattara+comments

In respect of your respected dealers comment I really am at a loss on how to respond since it would never be my aim to go against anything a respected dealer might think...oh wait a mo... I am a respected dealer... so if I may respond with some experience; The truth of this matter is;

The Omani Dancing Sword... The Straight Omani Sayf ... Dancing and pageants only. Specially invented as the current Dynastys sword of Salutation and Pageantry since 1744. Not for fighting.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

have any examples of the Omani Spear or spears from the Gulf Regions/Yemen survived to date?


Salaams BANTARU ~ There is one only in the "Richardson and Dorr" reference book on Omani artifacts. The spear fell into demise because of the advent of gunpowder..it also failed to make the grade because the much easier to carry sword and khanjar did. It was a matter of simple practicality and there was no contest since rifles simply superceded spears.

If I get the chance I will open a thread on Omani Spears later...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[colin henshaw]

have any examples of the Omani Spear or spears from the Gulf Regions/Yemen survived to date?

An interesting point - I have never actually seen a spear from the Arabian Peninsula region, although I have seen a picture of one in old postcard...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

An interesting point - I have never actually seen a spear from the Arabian Peninsula region, although I have seen a picture of one in old postcard...

Salaams Colin~ It is a very interesting field and there are a few in the museums. I will open the thread now with my only exhibit from the book above. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[BANTARU]

Salaams BANTARU ~ There is one only in the "Richardson and Dorr" reference book on Omani artifacts. The spear fell into demise because of the advent of gunpowder..it also failed to make the grade because the much easier to carry sword and khanjar did. It was a matter of simple practicality and there was no contest since rifles simply superceded spears.

If I get the chance I will open a thread on Omani Spears later...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Salaam Wajah,

Thank You for the thread. However, before the advent of gunfire, the spear would certainly have been more useful than the sword or khanjar, for long-range attacks or during pursuit of fleeing enemies or for killing infantry from horse/camel back.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaam Wajah,

Thank You for the thread. However, before the advent of gunfire, the spear would certainly have been more useful than the sword or khanjar, for long-range attacks or during pursuit of fleeing enemies or for killing infantry from horse/camel back.


Salaams Bantaru... Absolutely agreed... which is why it was first to fall into disuse as soon as the rifle.. or long gun (Roumi or abu futtila appeared)

The new thread; THE OMANI SPEAR is open :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[VANDOO]

MY KNOWLEGE IN THIS FIELD IS ONLY AS DEEP AS WHAT I HAVE READ IN THIS THREAD, SO PARDON ANY CONJECTURE OR SILLY COMMENTS I MAY MAKE. :D
IT APPEARS TO ME THE INTRODUCTION OF THE FELXABLE DANCE SWORD INTO PARADE USE CAME QUICKELY. NO DOUBT IN EARLIER TIMES WARRIORS CARRIED THEIR WAR SWORDS IN SUCH PROCESSIONS. TO GET A OLD WARRIOR TO LEAVE HIS CHERISHED WAR SWORD BEHIND WOULD NOT BE EASY OR POPULAR. TO APPEAR IN A PROCESSION BEFORE YOUR RULER WITHOUT YOUR SWORD OR NOT TO GO AT ALL WOULD NO DOUBT BRING DISHONOR OR WORSE.
THIS LEADS ME TO SUSPECT A ROYAL EDICT WAS THE CAUSE FOR THE RAPID CHANGE. WHERE WOULD A WISE RULER GET SUCH AN IDEA? HE KNEW HIS PEOPLE WOULD NOT LIKE TO APPEAR BEFORE HIM IN TRADITIONAL PROCESSIONS WITH NO SWORD BUT FOR SOME REASON WANTED TO CHANGE THE TRADITION WITHOUT TOO MUCH TROUBLE. POSSIBLE REASONS FOR THE CHANGE 1. TO STOP FATAL FIGHTS AMONG WARRIORS 2 . SECURITY FROM ASSINATION.
PERHAPS FLEXABLE SWORDS WERE USED IN THEATRE SUCH A WOBBLY FLEXABLE SWORD WOULD BE VERY GOOD IN COMEDY. PERHAPS PERFORMERS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE REAL WEAPONS WHEN PERFORMING BEFORE RULERS. THE RULER MAY HAVE SEEN THIS AND SAW A WAY TO PASS HIS EDICT REQUIRING EVERY PARTICIPANT TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD HE MAY EVEN HAVE HAD SOME MADE TO HIS ORDER TO GIVE AS PRESENTS TO HIGH RANKING MEN OR PERHAPS TO ENTIRE UNITS SO AS TO NOT LOSE THEIR SUPPORT OR FAVOR. THIS WOULD ASSURE EVERY ONE WOULD WANT SUCH A SWORD FOR THE PROCESSIONS AND NO DOUBT LEAD TO A COMPETICIAN OF SHOWMANSHIP SUCH AS BUZZING, THROWING AND FIGHTING WITH THE OBJECT OF ONLY CUTTING YOUR OPONENTS THUMB.
CONJECTURE MY SPECIALITY :D BUT PERHAPS IT MAY GIVE A DIRECTION TO SEARCH IN AS ROYAL RECORDS ARE LIKELY TO BE VAST IN NUMBERS. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST. :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

MY KNOWLEGE IN THIS FIELD IS ONLY AS DEEP AS WHAT I HAVE READ IN THIS THREAD, SO PARDON ANY CONJECTURE OR SILLY COMMENTS I MAY MAKE. :D
IT APPEARS TO ME THE INTRODUCTION OF THE FELXABLE DANCE SWORD INTO PARADE USE CAME QUICKELY. NO DOUBT IN EARLIER TIMES WARRIORS CARRIED THEIR WAR SWORDS IN SUCH PROCESSIONS. TO GET A OLD WARRIOR TO LEAVE HIS CHERISHED WAR SWORD BEHIND WOULD NOT BE EASY OR POPULAR. TO APPEAR IN A PROCESSION BEFORE YOUR RULER WITHOUT YOUR SWORD OR NOT TO GO AT ALL WOULD NO DOUBT BRING DISHONOR OR WORSE.
THIS LEADS ME TO SUSPECT A ROYAL EDICT WAS THE CAUSE FOR THE RAPID CHANGE. WHERE WOULD A WISE RULER GET SUCH AN IDEA? HE KNEW HIS PEOPLE WOULD NOT LIKE TO APPEAR BEFORE HIM IN TRADITIONAL PROCESSIONS WITH NO SWORD BUT FOR SOME REASON WANTED TO CHANGE THE TRADITION WITHOUT TOO MUCH TROUBLE. POSSIBLE REASONS FOR THE CHANGE 1. TO STOP FATAL FIGHTS AMONG WARRIORS 2 . SECURITY FROM ASSINATION.
PERHAPS FLEXABLE SWORDS WERE USED IN THEATRE SUCH A WOBBLY FLEXABLE SWORD WOULD BE VERY GOOD IN COMEDY. PERHAPS PERFORMERS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE REAL WEAPONS WHEN PERFORMING BEFORE RULERS. THE RULER MAY HAVE SEEN THIS AND SAW A WAY TO PASS HIS EDICT REQUIRING EVERY PARTICIPANT TO HAVE SUCH A SWORD HE MAY EVEN HAVE HAD SOME MADE TO HIS ORDER TO GIVE AS PRESENTS TO HIGH RANKING MEN OR PERHAPS TO ENTIRE UNITS SO AS TO NOT LOSE THEIR SUPPORT OR FAVOR. THIS WOULD ASSURE EVERY ONE WOULD WANT SUCH A SWORD FOR THE PROCESSIONS AND NO DOUBT LEAD TO A COMPETICIAN OF SHOWMANSHIP SUCH AS BUZZING, THROWING AND FIGHTING WITH THE OBJECT OF ONLY CUTTING YOUR OPONENTS THUMB.
CONJECTURE MY SPECIALITY :D BUT PERHAPS IT MAY GIVE A DIRECTION TO SEARCH IN AS ROYAL RECORDS ARE LIKELY TO BE VAST IN NUMBERS. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR QUEST. :)

Salaams VANDOO That is exactly what happenend when the new (current)Dynasty developed the idea in about 1744 and according to the Museum sources, thus, it became the celebrated design for the dancing sword and for pageants and march past...never for fighting... though the tribes dont exactly march.. they sort of saunter and dance past en masse before the ruler with great pomp throwing their swords in the air and shimmering their blades with clever wrist flicking actions (something that stiff sword blades cannot do...) Throwing stiff swords in the air would be counter produtive to the population count!! The mimic sword fight contest would also be a bit dodgey with a stiff blade as the idea is to score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb on his shield hand ... not sawing off his hand/ arm / fingers..into the bargain ! The Omani Sayf.. The Omani straight dancing and pageants only sword entered the Omani Funoon .. the great traditional enactment reflecting the history of Oman and the sword was honoured by being sharpened on both edges like its predecessor The Omani Battle Sword.. and further enhanced by the provision of the Terrs Battle Shield. (Buckler).

Thank you for your excellent post. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to Forum; How the spurious non flexible blade has appeared on Omani Long Hilts.

Some people have examples of fake Omani dancing swords which are non flexible... other than a slight few degrees of bend. These are fakes made in Muttrah Souk from 1970. They are old Ethiopian blades imported from Sanaa and rehilted in Muscat for the tourist market. For those who think that another Omani Sword exists ie a straight non flexible blade on a conical Omani longhilt the answer is no . No such weapon exists. It is a concoction of the souk workshops.

See Post #2 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17556

This describes the now known route of such blades; many originally 19th C German/European, sold to Ethiopia thence to Yemen(Sanaa) and Saudia and on to Salalah and Mutrah Souks which have appeared spuriously on Omani long hilts and sold to visitors/tourists as Omani swords. It is difficult to know where to slot this mixed up weapon since it is not of the family Omani Battle Sword nor is it an Omani Dancing Sword (The Straight Sayf).

It is however placed here for reference and carries the warning that an Omani long hilted straight sword with a blade that is not flexible must immediately be looked at as a potential fake and likely to be mismatched from a Red Sea variant. They are classified as Tourist Swords.

Workshop in Muttrah have been identified as having created probably thousands of such mix ups since 1970. Many workshops are defunct but some remain. They often extend the tang (pictures available) and can add original scabbards and furniture. None of these swords appear to be absorbed into the Omani local market because;

"the dancing sword must be a certain style and able to bend often almost double since that is the criteria for the 1744 flexible dancing style continuing to be made locally today in Ras al Khaimah and Salalah and pre 1970 by wandering gypsy groups all over Oman".

I have included this post here and on Omani Battle Swords... so that library is correctly served.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

I have a straight-bladed Omani sword. The blade is obviously locally-made and is marked with the "eylashes". It is flexible, but the tip can go off axis by no more than 2-3 inches. The blade is solid and battle - worthy.


My Argument against Ibrahim's theory is somewhat different: these swords were made at a time when swordfights were epidemic in the area. Thus, most if not all men owned battle swords.
Why on earth would they keep their fighting swords at home and acquire flimsy dancing implements to, - allegedly, - honor their ancestors. Too much money to burn?:-) Honoring ancestors with specially-made battle-worthless fakes? Makes no sense to me, unless there is something special in the Omani culture, and I have too much respect for them to suspect it.

Sword dances were widely popular in other cultures ( Caucasus, Ukraine, Cossack comes to mind right away), but those used real fighting blades. Otherwise, they would look like sissies. Was Oman a special case? I have great doubts about it: the laws of militant display are pretty standard all over the world.
No doubt that by now, when real swords are not practicable, lost, broken or sold to tourists for mucho dinero, the dancing ceremonies might employ flimsy substitutes ( same as modern Caucasian dancing troupes) . But 100-200 years ago? Sorry, but the theory looks totally illogical.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have a straight-bladed Omani sword. The blade is obviously locally-made and is marked with the "eylashes". It is flexible, but the tip can go off axis by no more than 2-3 inches. The blade is solid and battle - worthy.


My Argument against Ibrahim's theory is somewhat different: these swords were made at a time when swordfights were epidemic in the area. Thus, most if not all men owned battle swords.
Why on earth would they keep their fighting swords at home and acquire flimsy dancing implements to, - allegedly, - honor their ancestors. Too much money to burn?:-) Honoring ancestors with specially-made battle-worthless fakes? Makes no sense to me, unless there is something special in the Omani culture, and I have too much respect for them to suspect it.

Sword dances were widely popular in other cultures ( Caucasus, Ukraine, Cossack comes to mind right away), but those used real fighting blades. Otherwise, they would look like sissies. Was Oman a special case? I have great doubts about it: the laws of militant display are pretty standard all over the world.
No doubt that by now, when real swords are not practicable, lost, broken or sold to tourists for mucho dinero, the dancing ceremonies might employ flimsy substitutes ( same as modern Caucasian dancing troupes) . But 100-200 years ago? Sorry, but the theory looks totally illogical.

Salaams Ariel ~ How correct you are in pointing to the special Omani culture. In 1744 the new ruler called for an identifying sword of dance specifically for the Bussaidi dynasty. Thus was invented/born the Omani Saif or Dancing Sword. This has the flexible blade so that it can shimmer and buzz in the air when it is danced with and at weddings and social gatherings and for the march past by tribal infantry... and people. Its hilt was taken from the Omani Kattara. It has a mimic fighting performance also part of the culture ~ and in fact an entire ensemble of such dances with and without the Saif are in what the Omani People call The Traditions or "Funoon."

Your querry illustrates the difficulty that sword people have all over the world... in understanding the point. It's not a weapon ... It's a dancing sword ...to celebrate, dance, perform, pageants and traditions. It is the Bussaidi Dynasty Sword. It has never been used for fighting.

What has happenend since 1970 is that Yemeni merchants have bought and sold Ethiopian and other Red Sea blades and where these blades have had Rhino hilts they have been stripped off and put on Jambia... The blades then applied to the Omani market mainly Muttrah Souk Muscat. Enterprising Omani Souk Store owners have mismatched these blades with Omani Longhilts and occasionally scabbards and offered them for sale to tourists...They look real. They aren't.


Flexibility. The blade when flicked by the wrist can be seen to buzz and bends in the region of 5 to 6 inches both sides of the vertical ...see #5... by this action alone. When you press the blade horizontal against a wall it will bend almost 90 degrees easily. When you seize the tip and bend it back it can bend almost double and on release springs back straight.

Rule. An Omani long hilted straight dancing sword with a blade that is not flexible must immediately be looked at as a potential fake and likely to be mismatched from a Red Sea variant. They are classified as Tourist Swords.


The identification of an Omani dancing sword does not depend on whether a blade is considered capable of chopping a horses leg off or slicing through watermellons or chunks of wood...It is a sharp 2 edged item with a spatulate tip on a long Omani hilt. The blade, variously fullered, MUST BE FLEXIBLE.

There are 4 categories of Omani Sword;

1. The Old Omani Battle Sword. (Saif Yamaani)
2. The Omani Dancing Sword. (The straight flexible Omani Sayf)
3. The Omani Shamshiir.
4. The Omani Kattara.

As a note Ariel.. I have never seen an Omani Dancing Sword with eye lash markings... not yet anyway. Lots from the Red Sea region but not Oman.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Gavin Nugent]

The heavy straight bladed Oman long handled sword of Kattara type hilt from aniquity exist, various examples have been viewed and owned by many.

There is no concrete evidence to say that swords with these heavy blades were not used in dance, they probably were used in dance but the point remains these swords are present in the world.

Please make the trip to Australia or England and view first hand antique Oman straight swords with fighting type blades, original items, not tourist swords but swords of antiquity. Find your best fake from the best fake makers and bring it with you to compare these inaccuracies.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The heavy straight bladed Oman long handled sword of Kattara type hilt from aniquity exist, various examples have been viewed and owned by many.

There is no concrete evidence to say that swords with these heavy blades were not used in dance, they probably were used in dance but the point remains these swords are present in the world.

Please make the trip to Australia or England and view first hand antique Oman straight swords with fighting type blades, original items, not tourist swords but swords of antiquity. Find your best fake from the best fake makers and bring it with you to compare these inaccuracies.

Gavin


No. What are owned are traded in blades converted as I have said many times but to apparently no avail. ...read #53 above.

At this point I would suggest you contact the Omani National Museum since it is from there that confirmation must be accepted as I have done... and from the Richardson and Dorr cultural herritage work on same. Not to mention a long and interesting study of more than 3 decades in the subject. No such weapon exists except as described by me; The Omani souk produced weapon cross matched Re Sea Blade and Omani hilt scabbard etc are not classified as Omani Swords because there is no classification for fakes or Tourist Swords.

At this point therefor I decline your offer of me travelling to Australia or England to look at Red Sea examples of fake Omani Swords since I am quite aware of their provenance. You are of course invited to travel yourself and I will show you the Muscat workshop where such switched are still being done, if that is, you are still not convinced by the wealth of information at Museum level here or by the detailed work added by me on Kattara for Comments and on the specific details at The Omani Battle Sword and The Omani Dancing Sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you for your offer.

At this point, I must ask, why would a souk worker take a perfectly good complete with scabbrd antique flexible dance sword from antiquity, with wonderful culturally important fittings, design and artistry and history and being culturally important itself in its complete form, then remove the blade, then somehow fit a thicker fighting type blade in to a scabbard meant for its thinner brother, join the hilt in some manner that does not in any way disturb one ounce of age and patina and sell it as a [????] to tourists....seems rather odd that Omani Souk owners are destroying cultural heritage in an exercise of wasted time and resources when it would be just as easy to sell the original sword...Then what happens to the flexible blade? Does it then get dressed in modern leather, steel and silver of which I only see a couple of in the photos compared to the dozens and dozens of what I'd call beaters in the rest of the photos....

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you for your offer.

At this point, I must ask, why would a souk worker take a perfectly good complete with scabbrd antique flexible dance sword from antiquity, with wonderful culturally important fittings, design and artistry and history and being culturally important itself in its complete form, then remove the blade, then somehow fit a thicker fighting type blade in to a scabbard meant for its thinner brother, join the hilt in some manner that does not in any way disturb one ounce of age and patina and sell it as a [????] to tourists....seems rather odd that Omani Souk owners are destroying cultural heritage in an exercise of wasted time and resources when it would be just as easy to sell the original sword...Then what happens to the flexible blade? Does it then get dressed in modern leather, steel and silver of which I only see a couple of in the photos compared to the dozens and dozens of what I'd call beaters in the rest of the photos....

Gavin


Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

In answer to your souk worker question ~I have no idea.. but I think you are arriving at the finished product in the wrong way. Here is how it worked;

1. Blade arrives from Yeman (Sanaa) to souk Muscat circa 1970 or after (not before as there weren't any tourists to speak of before that)
2. Souk shop transfers blade to workshops.
Blade is fitted up, tang extended, and long hilt fitted. .
3. Scabbard is tooled up to suit... including as you point out quite excellent furniture hand tooled leather and silver where required. Page 454 of Richardson and Dorr has metalwork such as yours you showed me on e mail..

What you now have is a non flexible Red Sea Blade on an Omani Long Handle heavily camouflaged and looking every inch an Omani Sword which it is not. Sold to a Tourist... and thus can turn up worldwide in this very confusing guise.

I have to say that you are not the first specialist in swords to have been misled by the Swords of Oman. Many 19TH C visitors made similar mistakes which because of the written word have become concreted in as fact when they aren't true at all.. viz;

1878 Mr Geary, Times of India...Muscat ..Quote" A favourite weapon is a straight broad two handed sword; the sweep of which would take off a mans thigh or even cut him in two at the waist. The swordsmen carried over their shoulders small round shields of Rhinosceros hide 8 or 9 inches in diameter. The Arabs of these parts are very formidable swordsmen." Unquote.

James Wellstead visit to tribesmen Jalaan Bani Bu Ali 1835 Quote" The whole of the tribe... of about 250 men assembled for the purpose of exhibiting their dance. They had formed a circle within 5 or 6 of their number now entered. After walking leisurely around for some time, each challenged one of the spectators by striking him gently with the flat of his sword. His adversary immediately leapt forth and feigned combat ensued. They have but two cuts, one directly downwards at the head, and the other horizontally across the legs. They parry each other neither with sword nor shields but avoid the blows by leaping and bounding backwards. The blade of their sword is 3 feet in length, straqight thin double edged and as sharp as a razor''. Unquote.

What Wellstead didnt mention because he probably didn't know... is that there is but one point in the scoring system awarded if the thumb of the shield hand is touched by the flat tip of the oponents sword ... game over.

He also failed to notice that the weapon was not in fact a weapon but a dancing and pageant sword only and since the Mimic Fight is in fact an important part of the pageant The...Hooplah!!...Hey Presto!!...A pageantry Sword. (Pageant = Traditions = The Funoon.)

There are plenty other examples of mistaken identity and it is interesting to see it perpetrated today and in this case by a reasonably recent sword format fetched in by trade and rehilted by enterprising workshops.

Like always ... I am quite prepared to leave the door open for logical arguement and for anyone to dive in and start researching the issue. I continue to search always on the lookout for twists and turns in the story and always ready to re-assess my findings. To date I have seen no evidence to illustrate another avenue on these sword rebuilds but as always I am ready to listen and will follow up on leads which are sensible and constructive. Tilting at Windmills, however, ...I've done that and do not intend to repeat the experience ! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.








Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

With respect, and hence my invitation,

A first hand and even scientific analysis of the sword we now discuss will reveal to you that this is now a 43year old souk manufactured sword nor is the delicate string worked leather scabbard....

They do exisit and it is worth the effort to explore the type in detail as they are in my opinion valid and I have ideas as to how and why they are in the world but first the opinion that they do not exist must be passed and explored further to comfirm this for you.

I must also point out, not specific to these swords or the souks spoken of or any other Oman sword type but tang extension has been common for hundereds of years and likely longer throughout Syria and other surronding countries just as base steel tangs and forte's were extended to wootz blades.

Gavin

I have no idea.. but I think you are arriving at the finished product in the wrong way.
1. Blade arrives in souk Muscat circa 1970 (not before as there werent any tourists to speak of before that)
2. Souk shop transfers blade to workshops.
Blade is fitted up tang extended and long hilt fitted silvered up etc.
3. Scabbard is tooled up to suit... including as you point out quite excellent furniture. Page 454 of Richardson and Dorr has metalwork such as yours you showed me on e mail..
What you now have is a non flexible Red Sea Blade on an Omani Long Handle heavily camouflaged and looking every inch an Omani Sword which it is not. Sold to a Tourist... and thus can turn up worldwide in this very confusing guise.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

With respect, and hence my invitation,

A first hand and even scientific analysis of the sword we now discuss will reveal to you that this is now a 43year old souk manufactured sword nor is the delicate string worked leather scabbard....

They do exisit and it is worth the effort to explore the type in detail as they are in my opinion valid and I have ideas as to how and why they are in the world but first the opinion that they do not exist must be passed and explored further to comfirm this for you.

I must also point out, not specific to these swords or the souks spoken of or any other Oman sword type but tang extension has been common for hundereds of years and likely longer throughout Syria and other surronding countries just as base steel tangs and forte's were extended to wootz blades.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

I dont understand your first paragraph ?


If you have an idea as to how these arrived then lets hear it ! The hot anvil of Forum discussion awaits your findings...

Tang extensions... On Omani longhilts its different... :shrug: The pommel is part of the tang... On non pommel swords the tang has to be extended and a pommel welded on... then the sword can be hilted like a long Omani hilt... not before.

An example of an extended tang is on file here where you can see an Ethiopian blade fitted with an extended tang and pommel and awaiting its Omani hilt to be fitted in Muscat at Muttrah where they've been doing this for decades ! This blade has come up the same route as yours.. Germany- Ethiopia - Yemen/ Sanaa) -Muscat -Tourist -Worldwide -

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=9&pp=30&highlight=kattara+comments see post 241.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

With respect to your updated post from which I drew my quote of yours.

With consideration to a number of things mentioned but the absence of examples collected by these authors, they are but merely telling a story in their journals, not studying specifics of weapons nor collecting them.

This sword of fighting type we discuss between us for example, is certainly a thin sword to coin the phrase presented above by one author...very thin compared to English regulation swords for sure and thin in many respects to Indian swords of the time and period that he was exposed to but a strong well forged fighting type.

As I have mentioned, I have no denial that these swords were used in dance, that is not being questioned, but they did certainly carry heavier fighting blades in this style of sword.


Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

With respect to your updated post from which I drew my quote of yours.

With consideration to a number of things mentioned but the absence of examples collected by these authors, they are but merely telling a story in their journals, not studying specifics of weapons nor collecting them.

This sword of fighting type we discuss between us for example, is certainly a thin sword to coin the phrase presented above by one author...very thin compared to English regulation swords for sure and thin in many respects to Indian swords of the time and period that he was exposed to but a strong well forged fighting type.

As I have mentioned, I have no denial that these swords were used in dance, that is not being questioned, but they did certainly carry heavier fighting blades in this style of sword.


Gavin


Salaams, SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your viewpoint, whilst respected, is at loggerheads with mine. Last paragraph first.. There is no evidence of another type of Omani sword with a non flexible blade in dancing guise. Other than the rehilts I have detailed there is no Omani type that fits the description except of course, Tourist Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

I dont understand your first paragraph ?




Ibrahiim,

The paragraph is indicative that if you were here with me examining this sword, in a controlled enviroment you would be convinced to understand it better than your dismissal of it for what it is that you claim from afar.

Equally, if it was put through stringent scientific examination at both superfical level and through scientific disassembly of the sword, it too would convince you of the sword as being of antiquity.

Apart from, and keeping this comment specific to this sword we discuss, hot the type, I have not had you present a comparable example to support your claims, only crude all steel examples and hearsay. Equally for me here, now only having this one example in my hands, I will engage the collection of others as they come to hand to better support the type I suggest.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams, SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your viewpoint, whilst respected, is at loggerheads with mine. Last paragraph first.. There is no evidence of another type of Omani sword with a non flexible blade in dancing guise. Other than the rehilts I have detailed there is no Omani type that fits the description except of course, Tourist Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Loggerheads it is Ibrahiim...but there is evidence not being embraced...the one I hold and others I have handled...of the poor crude unrefined tourist types you mention, I have never gone out of my way to obtain one.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

If you have an idea as to how these arrived then lets hear it ! The hot anvil of Forum discussion awaits your findings...



One bridge at a time friend, one bridge at a time.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ Whilst we are waiting for that I should remind Forum of what I mean by Mimic Fighting and March Past using the The Straight Dancing Sword; The Flexible sword invented for the Bussaidi Dynasty in 1744 and still in power thus the sword is still used in a declaration of support in all the related pageants. The March Past by tribal infantry and the Mimic Fight are shown below;see also #38.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Ibrahiim..........Are you planning on addressing the issue raised by Gavin?
I for one would be interested to see where this goes...........and I am sure there are others who would be interested also.

[Gavin Nugent]

Ibrahiim..........Are you planning on addressing the issue raised by Gavin?
I for one would be interested to see where this goes...........and I am sure there are others who would be interested also.

Hi Stu,

As far as the discussion goes, we are at loggerheads as noted. Points have been addressed but with disbelief which is part and parcel of working through things.
If time permits I will seek out provenanced examples and advise further, maybe someone with more spare time can also do so.

Other than that, without opening another can of worms you may have to request a specific point not yet answered, I may have missed one.

I would also like to add, the black and white image above;
The gent crouching embraces a sword of fighting form with a tip not seen on dance swords...I too note the buckler has some nasty cuts out of it...surely not from a dance sword dance which further leads me to suspect and suspect only that he must own two or more swords by all accounts noted by Ibrahiim, especially if each sword has its specific use, a straight one for dance a curved one for fighting and if lucky a straight one for fighting, which begs another question to be asked, did by this measure, every man able to fight, carry two or more swords when away from his home in the century past, a dance sword, a battle sword and a curved sword...seems out of place, I would suggest, on a pilgrimage, only one sword would be carried, likely a long handled fighting type being of preference and that it was used for both dance and protection/fighting(speculation but plausible).
I might too add that these fighting swords of a straight type are more than meets the eye at first glace, much like Iain's swords when viewed closely, they are straight but one way in the hand has straight sword weight and feel, turn the swords 180deg in the hands and they have a sabre like weight distribution. This is an aspect seen in many straight double edged swords throughout time.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim..........Are you planning on addressing the issue raised by Gavin?
I for one would be interested to see where this goes...........and I am sure there are others who would be interested also.



Salaams khanjar 1... As you well know... I have addressed the issue many times, however, as noted there is a log jam.

Of the many thousands of rehilted non Omani blades on Omani long hilts sold via Muscat I am certain there are quite a few foreign people holding made up swords of the style I have outlined in their collections. The rule is simple;

Straight, not flexible on a long Omani Hilt= Not an Omani Dancing Sword= Fake.

SwordsAntiqueWeapons ..Your comment about the tip of the sword is because the sword is moving, twisting, flexing and displayed as more pointed than usual but this is only an optical illusion ...see also the optical effect on the parade past below. It is a standard Omani, straight, flat, spatulate, flexible, round tipped, dancing sword.

Your remaining paragraph covers purely so far as I can see conjecture on the whyfors of cuts in the Terrs shield and sumations on pilgrimage carriage of sword/swords... none of which has a bearing on this case and which are simply unproven guesses. Most terrs have cuts in them caused by the mimic fight morelikely..and since after all the blades are very sharp. In the case of a Terrs having actually been used in combat with the Omani Battle Sword I can imagine cuts in the shield in that function. You will recall the reason why the Terrs was awarded/ordered to be included in the pageants with the 1744 dancer?

Unless you are about to re write Omani Sword History please be advised that there is no evidence of stiff fighting blades on Omani Dancing swords... the vast number of rehilted tourist swords , has however, created its own weather pattern. The source has been identified as has the rehilting region (Muttrah) and the date from about and after 1970 til now viz;

Germany/Europe>Ethiopia>Yemen/Saudia>Sanaa>Salalah/Muscat>Muttrah Souk>World.

The dancing sword has been carried by tribal infantry in Oman since 1744 but only for the dedication ... the parade ... and march past in front of the Bussaidi Ruler; The straight dancing sword could well be described as the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword and I can show a sketch of it carried by tribal infantry in the 19th C... That doesn't make it a fighting weapon. I have to say however that it certainly adds fog to the situation..!! It was, however, a dancing sword and is still used today only for that and the pageants.

I think the biggest mistake is in classing the sword as a fighting weapon because it feels, looks and appears to be so. This has fooled visitors and collectors alike for a very long time. The fact that it can apparently chop an arm off, cut a man in half, or that the warriors weilding it look war-like, vicious , deadly ...etc etc is purely coincidental..they probably are but not with that sword.

Now firstly to be absolutely clear and specific and we are not talking about any other combination such as battle swords... The long Omani flexible dancing Sword on the long hilt, called The Sayf or Saif is purely for pageants and dancing and I think that is agreed...

Secondly what seems to be questionable is a stiff bladed fighting version on the same long hilt. This is not the case. Any stiff variants are relatively recently cross hilted as detailed by me as not genuine.

( Owners of the fake version with the stiff blade may pontificate untill they are blue in the face but that will never change the scenario..If it doesn't flex ... if its stiff ... its not an Omani dancing sword... and there is no other category to slot it into since by definition its a 1970 (from and to-date) fake. A Tourist sword.

I have seen these stiff bladed swords and some are in excellent disguise and clearly went for a considerable sum .. They are accompanied by well made Omani Scabbards and occasionally superb furniture..I have never seen one in the ownership of a local... they all seem to be externally owned... why? Perhaps because they all traversed the souk system which created them and were outed to foreign ownership from about 1970 (thus they are tourist swords) and since Omani men don't use them... because... the blades don't flex.

Anyone conducting research into these stiff blades should keep that in mind. :shrug:


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

I don't really feel like diving into all this again, but I'd be curious Ibrahiim, if you've come across a provenanced 19th century, or earlier, dance version (i.e. super flexi blade). By provenance I mean a sword that has not been rehilted or tampered with and has a firm, documented collection date. in the 1800s or earlier.

I think it would be interesting to see.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I don't really feel like diving into all this again, but I'd be curious Ibrahiim, if you've come across a provenanced 19th century, or earlier, dance version (i.e. super flexi blade). By provenance I mean a sword that has not been rehilted or tampered with and has a firm, documented collection date. in the 1800s or earlier.

I think it would be interesting to see.


Salaams Iain, The only likely source of that is the National Museum which I shall try to access shortly. The other document which probably exists in some far flung corner of the Museum admin section would be the signed order for the actual Dancing Sword being brought into play in 1744...

That being the perfect solution I can wager straight away that perhaps neither exist !

Fine dancing swords are in private hands since they are part of an Omani Families Heirloom...and like the Museum quest it is on my list.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim, I would be very surprised if some examples did not end up in European collections during the 19th century. That is perhaps a more likely avenue to have properly dated items with provenance.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim, I would be very surprised if some examples did not end up in European collections during the 19th century. That is perhaps a more likely avenue to have properly dated items with provenance.


Salaams Iain~ Im not about to argue that point, however, it seems to me that few Europeans if any have swords from 19th C. Oman which was in decline and largely side stepped because of the Suez canal etc.
I am not particularly well positioned either to view possible European collections but I am astride the situation here in Oman. It is, therefor, here that I shall research.

It should be noted that those in favour of an old dancing sword used for fighting may be trying to push the envelope back from the 1970 rehilted lineage to suggest a thicker stiff bladed sword of earlier provenance... when in fact no such weapon exists... save for the fake, rehilted, Red Sea variants already outlined.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain~ Im not about to argue that point, however, it seems to me that few Europeans if any have swords from 19th C. Oman which was in decline and largely side stepped because of the Suez canal etc.
I am not particularly well positioned either to view possible European collections but I am astride the situation here in Oman. It is, therefor, here that I shall research.


Hopefully you'll turn something up, however, one of the great benefits of Colonial era bring backs is that the when the item was removed from the source culture it remained unchanged. Given that Britain had involvement in the region from the 1820s it would not be surprising to turn up a few.

Perhaps you'll be able to find that locally, but I'll be interested about any dated provenance.



It should be noted that those in favour of an old dancing sword used for fighting may be trying to push the envelope back from the 1970 rehilted lineage to suggest a thicker stiff bladed sword of earlier provenance... when in fact no such weapon exists... save for the fake, rehilted, Red Sea variants already outlined.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well seeing documented early 20th century and 19th century examples can only help with particular question don't you think? ;)

[Gavin Nugent]

I don't really feel like diving into all this again, but I'd be curious Ibrahiim, if you've come across a provenanced 19th century, or earlier, dance version (i.e. super flexi blade). By provenance I mean a sword that has not been rehilted or tampered with and has a firm, documented collection date. in the 1800s or earlier.

I think it would be interesting to see.

I have had one dance sword of the proper dance type of the vintage noted but without provenance or one never enquired about at the time.
The swords as a type was of EU form shaved within an inch of its life through the top 6-8 inches.

Gavin

[Iain]

I have had one dance sword of the proper dance type of the vintage noted but without provenance or one never enquired about at the time.
The swords as a type was of EU form shaved within an inch of its life through the top 6-8 inches.

Gavin

Hi Gav,

And therein lies the problem I think, there's a few folks around here who've had or have swords they'd attribute to the 19th century and on the other side we've got someone who's aware of similar items still being made today.

A few examples with provenance won't answer all the questions about each individual sword that comes up for discussion, but would at least provide a baseline for what's possible versus the current ideas being put forth in this thread about tourist weapons and fakes.

Since there's a lack of pictorial and archaeological evidence either way for this, really the only thing will be items with collection dates or period photos that clearly show blades.

Ibrahiim, have you ever been to the Bait Al Zubair museum? They apparently have a sword on display with a 17th century Portuguese blade. Not sure of the mounts but it could be interesting.

[Jim McDougall]

I would like to say that it has been most intesting to see this debate/discussion unfold, and while there aeem to have been a degree of 'loggerheads' etc. everyone seems to have maintained a good level of courtesy in interaction. Most interesting is the nature of the weapons which are the focus here.
If I may add some thoughts and personal experience which though limited, might add a little perspective. I would clarify, as this is a 'discussion' in my view I do not take 'sides' :)

When I first acquired one of this long cylinder hilt Omani swords, it seems it was around 1994-5 , around the time Robert Elgood published "Arms and Armour of Arabia". At this time, these were still considered remarkably rare, and thier appearance was even rarer in catalogs or auctions. I recall that the admittedly 'wreck' of a 'kattara' I acquired was considered a bit of conquest in the limited collecting circles in which I was involved.

With Elgoods book, we knew of these forms, and the swords referred to in these threads as 'battle swords' from factions in Nizwa were must sought as rare early to even 'ancient' prototypes for the kattara. They were almost invariably misidentified accordingly, as medieval etc.

As has been often the case, in a short time more of the cylinder hilts began to occur in markets, and great excitement grew when several of the 'old' type kattara appeared.
As has been noted, Oman has not been a particularly open place to the west until relatively recent years. Presumably that degree of opening up allowed for more examples to enter collectibles venues.

It would seem to me that kattara, while certainly known of, in the 19th century, were not especially avaliable in the typical colonial 'tourist' and souvenier centers of North Africa, Arabia and Red Sea areas. What seems to be known of them, as seen with the references by Auguste Demmin (1867) and subsequently copied by Burton (1884), these cylinder hilts appear to have been regarded as from Zanzibar. That is reflected in these references in drawings, and while Oman itself was effectively 'closed', the bustling entrepot of Zanzibar was not, but it was a Sultanate of Oman. Clearly the Zanzibar attribution resulted, and most notably, the limited data regarding these weapons has remained largely stagnant until Elgood in 1994.

The ceremonial function of these cylindrical hilt swords is well established, but it would seem that thier use in form as battle swords in Muscati circumstances was also a case in degree in the 19th century. It also seems that they were worn in more ostentatious dress as a status symbol and mark of prestige by the burgeoning ranks of merchants from Oman (Muscat as I understand), while interior Nizwa maintained thier traditional forms.

It does not seem particularly remarkable that various trade blades from German and other sources would have entered Omani armouries, and that their armourers would have copied markings etc just as in other colonial or native settings.
That the cottage industry of commercially producing these swords not only for ceremonial purposes, but for tourist ('collecting') venues also does not seem remarkable.

It is clear that the early days of these becoming available in limited degree opened doors for the usual dealer opportunities, which became exploited in many cases as is typically the case with arms antiquities. I think the open look into these kinds of circumstances that has been revealed in these pages is wonderfully helpful to collectors, however I am not sure that these weapons as types can be categorically classified without individual evalution of each one on its own merits.

End of solilioquy :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I would like to say that it has been most intesting to see this debate/discussion unfold, and while there aeem to have been a degree of 'loggerheads' etc. everyone seems to have maintained a good level of courtesy in interaction. Most interesting is the nature of the weapons which are the focus here.
If I may add some thoughts and personal experience which though limited, might add a little perspective. I would clarify, as this is a 'discussion' in my view I do not take 'sides' :)

When I first acquired one of this long cylinder hilt Omani swords, it seems it was around 1994-5 , around the time Robert Elgood published "Arms and Armour of Arabia". At this time, these were still considered remarkably rare, and thier appearance was even rarer in catalogs or auctions. I recall that the admittedly 'wreck' of a 'kattara' I acquired was considered a bit of conquest in the limited collecting circles in which I was involved.

With Elgoods book, we knew of these forms, and the swords referred to in these threads as 'battle swords' from factions in Nizwa were must sought as rare early to even 'ancient' prototypes for the kattara. They were almost invariably misidentified accordingly, as medieval etc.

As has been often the case, in a short time more of the cylinder hilts began to occur in markets, and great excitement grew when several of the 'old' type kattara appeared.
As has been noted, Oman has not been a particularly open place to the west until relatively recent years. Presumably that degree of opening up allowed for more examples to enter collectibles venues.

It would seem to me that kattara, while certainly known of, in the 19th century, were not especially avaliable in the typical colonial 'tourist' and souvenier centers of North Africa, Arabia and Red Sea areas. What seems to be known of them, as seen with the references by Auguste Demmin (1867) and subsequently copied by Burton (1884), these cylinder hilts appear to have been regarded as from Zanzibar. That is reflected in these references in drawings, and while Oman itself was effectively 'closed', the bustling entrepot of Zanzibar was not, but it was a Sultanate of Oman. Clearly the Zanzibar attribution resulted, and most notably, the limited data regarding these weapons has remained largely stagnant until Elgood in 1994.

The ceremonial function of these cylindrical hilt swords is well established, but it would seem that thier use in form as battle swords in Muscati circumstances was also a case in degree in the 19th century. It also seems that they were worn in more ostentatious dress as a status symbol and mark of prestige by the burgeoning ranks of merchants from Oman (Muscat as I understand), while interior Nizwa maintained thier traditional forms.

It does not seem particularly remarkable that various trade blades from German and other sources would have entered Omani armouries, and that their armourers would have copied markings etc just as in other colonial or native settings.
That the cottage industry of commercially producing these swords not only for ceremonial purposes, but for tourist ('collecting') venues also does not seem remarkable.

It is clear that the early days of these becoming available in limited degree opened doors for the usual dealer opportunities, which became exploited in many cases as is typically the case with arms antiquities. I think the open look into these kinds of circumstances that has been revealed in these pages is wonderfully helpful to collectors, however I am not sure that these weapons as types can be categorically classified without individual evalution of each one on its own merits.

End of solilioquy :)



Salaams Jim,
Thank you for your post which I feel well underlines the cleansing humility about doubt in the matter of The Dancing Sword.

I have to say that one part of the puzzle I cannot get to the root of, is the date of appearance of the Kattara; The Curved Omani Sword, though, incidentally more often seen with a European blade..Did this appear before or after the Straight Omani Dancing Sword ?.. whose known birthdate is 1744 at the outset of the Bussaidi Dynasty. Naturally, part of the question is "where did the long Omani hilt come from" ? Which sword/thus which hilt came first?

I have been in most of the Museums, though, Bait Zubair not yet but friends have seen the exhibits, however, the Portuguese oddity is one blade I would like to look at and to ask where did it appear from and when? Portuguese Swords tended to be Rapier style... or at least the few I have owned were... I would like to examine any broadsword of that period pre 1650 in Muscat museums...though I am aware of certain exhibits that have a shall we say "dubious recent history". It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be. :D

Meanwhile I continue to help build a strong reference library on this subject and I believe we are healthier for it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Iain]

Salaams Jim,
It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be. :D


It would have to be done post 1970 then to fit in with the typology you've outlined and would have to be classed as a "tourist item" as it would not be a flexible dancing sword.

Hopefully you can visit the museum in the near future and clear this up, I'm quite a few folks would be curious to see this particular sword.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It would have to be done post 1970 then to fit in with the typology you've outlined and would have to be classed as a "tourist item" as it would not be a flexible dancing sword.

Hopefully you can visit the museum in the near future and clear this up, I'm quite a few folks would be curious to see this particular sword.



Salaams Iain... Of the half dozen or so scenarios that is one of them...I can only speculate on the potential range of variations since if the sword was left behind/captured when the Portuguese left we are talking about 1650. That puts the long hilt and the dancing sword out of sight. If the blade was slapped onto an Omani Longhilt later it raises many questions and if it was mounted post 1970 then it's a fake by definition. Surprisingly the Richardson and Dorr team included a few swords from that collection in their book but they are Shamshiirs..one with a 18th C. German blade ... I shall visit there soon but I know they are camera allergenic !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Salaams Jim,
Thank you for your post which I feel well underlines the cleansing humility about doubt in the matter of The Dancing Sword.

I have to say that one part of the puzzle I cannot get to the root of, is the date of appearance of the Kattara; The Curved Omani Sword, though, incidentally more often seen with a European blade..Did this appear before or after the Straight Omani Dancing Sword ?.. whose known birthdate is 1744 at the outset of the Bussaidi Dynasty. Naturally, part of the question is "where did the long Omani hilt come from" ? Which sword/thus which hilt came first?

I have been in most of the Museums, though, Bait Zubair not yet but friends have seen the exhibits, however, the Portuguese oddity is one blade I would like to look at and to ask where did it appear from and when? Portuguese Swords tended to be Rapier style... or at least the few I have owned were... I would like to examine any broadsword of that period pre 1650 in Muscat museums...though I am aware of certain exhibits that have a shall we say "dubious recent history". It would indeed be odd to discover a Portuguese blade of pre 1650 vintage on a post 1744 hilt !! but I suspect that is all it will be. :D

Meanwhile I continue to help build a strong reference library on this subject and I believe we are healthier for it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi


Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.

[kahnjar1]

Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.
Hi Jim,
I should point out that it is not the curved Omani sword at issue here, but the straight fighting bladed Omani hilted sword, about which Gavin and Ibrahiim are at loggerheads. I do not like the word FAKE particularly, but since it has been well used to describe these so-called "nonexistant" swords made by suppliers to the tourist market, then the word should also sit squarely on Khanjars which are being modern made and sold at exhorbitant prices to the unwitting tourist. These also would then be classified as FAKES.

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly Stu, and realizing that the curved kattara was of course off topic, I tried to address that aspect as well as trying to express my views toward the dancing/combat etc. issues.

I also personally pretty much detest the unfortunate term 'fake' , especially in the world of ethnographic arms. While obviously there are commercial exploitations of many distinct weapon forms which are made explicitly to be hawked to wide eyed tourists. However there are many examples of such forms which are modernly produced as part of the traditional costume and accoutrements worn in accord with local customs, and made observing established traditional guidelines. This is at least the understanding I have in many accounts I have been made aware of with these kinds of circumstances.
It does seem that in this context, often tourists will try to purchase a weapon actually being worn by an individual, in thier hopes of acquiring an 'authentic' traditional weapon over a 'bazaar' piece from off a display table. At least temporally they feel they have acquired an item from the tribal context which they are attempting to 'experience. In such cases, the individual who relinquishes his weapon for sale simply replaces it. While industriously off center in degree, the weapons themselves do have also in degree some level of interpretive authenticity.

It would be incredibly naieve to assume that many weapons are not indeed produced expressly to be hawked in bazaars or shops for the less adventurous or time constrained souvenier hunters. Again, as collectors, I think that there can never be too much knowledge at hand, and it is incumbent on that collector to be wary of these conditions and of course caveat emptor.

Again to the topic at loggerheads...there can be no doubt that weapons (regardless of term, in this case the Omani broadswords long generally termed as 'kattara') used in pageantry events have been produced expressly for that purpose. It does not seem inconceivable that equivilent examples of said type might have been produced as combat or military arms. As I noted, by the same token, the availability of imported trade blades or already mounted examples certainly might have become used in certain cases in these pageants.
What has been said is that the inflexibility of certain blades would in most cases impair the key element of the exhibition of swords, being the undulation and movement of the blades and thier effects. Again, certainly there might be cases where fully functional combat level bladed weapons might have been used.

In my own opinion, I cannot see where there must be hard and fast rules or circumstances dictating which swords by nature of thier blades must be confined to specific use by the varying degree of blade flexibility. Obviously in cases of extremely flimsy blades, they would serve poorly in actual combat, but as these are slashing weapons in a secondary use situation it seems they might have served for lack of better weapon.

These situations would be toward much earlier instances as in more modern times, the use of guns and bayonets would be of course in place in combat circumstances, and there would be no place for such traditional swords.
This then would again look toward this discussion at hand, and it would seem clear that in earlier times, there were indeed combat swords and lighter ceremonial swords of the straight blade, cylinder hilt form.

It is duly noted that at present, and in more recent years, examples of these same form swords have been produced, whether to serve as implements in the pageantry described or of course, in the cottage industry of weapons for souvenier hunters and unwary collectors. In my impression, there are apparantly some artisans and dealers who perform refurbishing of some of these sword forms using authentic components and traditionally observed methods of restoration. As long as properly described and presented, these I believe are not within the again unfortunate, 'fake' classification, and should be accepted by collectors for exactly what they are.

[kahnjar1]

Hi Jim,
I have to agree with the last part of your last paragraph above, where you mention new built/restored items being passed off as genuine old collectors pieces. As we all know by now these are being openly advertised on the Net at huge prices, and with no mention that they are not genuine old pieces. So as you state, Caveat Emptor.
With regard to the "Loggerheads issue", I do not see a resolve here unless there is progress made by ALL parties towards the acceptance that JUST MAYBE there COULD BE swords of the Omani Saif type with stiff fighting blades.
Also it should be born in mind that this is a DISCUSSION Forum, the opinions written here are only the opinions of the writer, and should not necessarily be taken as 100% correct. The unfortunate thing here is that there appears to be absolutely no room for movement, or anyone else's view.
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:D

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Jim,
I should point out that it is not the curved Omani sword at issue here, but the straight fighting bladed Omani hilted sword, about which Gavin and Ibrahiim are at loggerheads. I do not like the word FAKE particularly, but since it has been well used to describe these so-called "nonexistant" swords made by suppliers to the tourist market, then the word should also sit squarely on Khanjars which are being modern made and sold at exhorbitant prices to the unwitting tourist. These also would then be classified as FAKES.


Salaams Khanjar 1 ~You write with a bitter taste in your pen...no? :shrug:

It is a fact that the two styles are called Sayf or Saif for the straight dancer and Kattarah for the great curved sword. Im not sure if the collectors care one way or the other what they are called in Oman and I gave up worrying about that ages ago.

Be advised that ethnographic arms generally applies to collectors of such weapons that are not in vogue/newly made/used/ today... For antiques part of their charm may in fact be because they are artefacts used in battles before... a long time ago. In fact a lot of collectors tend to ringfence more modern weapons because of this fact. Weapons in some countries, however, are made as a continuum of that process i.e. They never fell from grace... they are still worn in honour of the forefathers and they are still made new today. A new Omani Khanjar expertly made will no doubt in future become a collectors item and joins the long respected and honourable process of antiquity in due course. This is the peculiar position in Oman.

Naturally many Omani weapons are heirloom items which almost never get sold but are passed down the family line... they quite often come in for repair but don't usually appear for sale. Equally local people also demand brand new pieces... made in the time honoured way with the same tools and by expert craftsmen who learned the trade from their fathers and who still even use the same old tools. On top of that there are some workshops in India and now in China that do cheap copies and which also do appear mixed all together in the souks in particular Sharjah and Muscat ~ mixed with stuff from the Yemen and Saudia as well as Syria and as those countries come under pressure internally the percentage of stuff from these regions climbs ..

I estimate the level of non Omani gear in Muttrah is somewhere in the region of 80 to 90% but in Sharjah it's different and worse .. The vast bulk of it is non UAE..with authentic and mixed fake work eminating from Afghanistan, India and China... and everywhere else ... about 99% fake.

I use the word "fake" and I mean it. A sword deliberately cross hilted after 1970 for selling onto the tourist market with a 19th C. blade (or any other age) from the Red Sea regions with a hilt of Omani style and sold as an Omani Sword is a Fake. A khanjar made for the Omani market isn't. A Khanjar made as a deliberate fake aimed at hoodwinking tourists is.

It is a matter of experience...Countless hours spent in the old workshops of The Baatinah, Nizwa, Sanau and Muscat coupled with the experience of many decades studying and talking to the makers... it rather undermines your case; The fact that a few fake Khanjars may be encountered in Sharjah Souk (or other) is unrelated to the canny, crafty way the Muttrah sword, cross hilting, situation has inserted itself since 1970. Thats life.

What is important is not to grumble about it... :D ... but conversely to inform this important international panel of collectors so that they may be aware of it. I mean you do realise that buying in any souk it must be down to the individual not to get stupidly ripped off ! The best defence against that surely is knowledge..and Forum is honourably packed with that. :shrug:


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Regarding the curved 'kattara' (using the generally held term for Omani swords with cylindrical hilt), these I think would be likely to have evolved from these type hilts being placed on 'trade' or perhaps even 'surplus' European blades entering Omani trade sphere. This would most likely have occurred post the hypothetical mid 18th century benchmark for these type hilts.

While the open, guardless hilt is certainly not a unique characteristic of course, and is well known in swords such as the shashka In Central Asia and certain other instances. Obviously we cannot arbitrarily presume influences of these toward the broadsword with such hilt which became known in association with these pageantry events mid18th century, but by the same token cannot ignore the potential.

It would seem to me that these style hilts becoming popularized in these clearly very important traditional events might be adopted into actual weapons intended for regular military use. The 'cross over' of weapons commonly held to be 'non combat' ceremonial or dress weapons in many cases fail to recognize that often such weapons, like the smallsword and other military officers swords are in fact sully capable of deadly use.

Also, many true combat level arms are used in various traditional ceremonies, with sword dances in Scotland, India, Africa, and many other cases. Despite use of combat weapons in these, the production of less formidable blades on similiar hilt forms was common as well as the continuation of these kinds of ceremonies sometimes called for less potential for accidental harm to participants.

Returning to the original question of the curved blades, I think as noted these probably were the result of availability of these blades in the trade spheres and preferences of local consumers. Obviously the sabre had become highly favored throughout Arabia as well as many of the cultural spheres, and even in North Africa, where broadswords typically reigned supreme from the Sudan into Saharan regions...sabres such as the Manding form in Mali and contiguous areas and that of Tuareg regions termed 'aljuinar' were present by the 19th century.
As with the Manding swords, it seems most of the sabre blades were German with names like FW Holler and some French examples, but I have seen even British blades with MOLE.

I have often noticed and often mentioned that it would seem there are compelling similarities between the Manding sabres and their open cylindrical hilts and the Omani hilts. The interesting hilt style is of course quite contrary to the typical crossguard form hilts of takouba and kaskara as well as the military hilts of the sabres which often provided curved blades.
This has always led me to the well established connection with these Saharan regions via caravan routes into eastern Africa and ultimately Zanzibar, where the Omani Sultanate thrived in trade.

When the other broadsword with cylindrical hilt, the Maasai 'seme' comes to mind, it becomes even more tempting to consider these routes of diffusion for these type hilts. The availability and increased favor of the sabre may well have carried across these same routes, and conversely toward Oman, in these 19th century times.

Again, all admittedly speculation, however with somewhat compelling plausibility I would think. Hopefully I have not digressed too much in trying to offer my views.


Salaams Jim ~ Thank you for your detailed post. Not withstanding the situation regarding The Omani Dancing Sword I found your comments well placed about the curved weapon ~ it begs the question where/when did the long Omani Hilt originate? Which sword was first on the scene?; The Dancing Sword of 1744 or the Curved Kattarah? Is it possible that they arrived at the same time?

It would be plausible to suppose that the Mandingo long hilt transmitted onto a long Omani hilt form via a slavers sword pre 1744 and became the accepted Omani Longhilt but there is not enough evidence yet... In fact the timings are interesting since if the form suddenly appeared direct from Mandingo to Omani Dancing sword it could be that it was then transmitted onto the curved Kattarah style...in 1744... so we are in full circle.

I continue to look at blades and hope to get in again to the Museums in Muscat to see if the dates can be separated. It would be nice to know. Does it make any diffrence to the connundrum about the odd stiff blades on Omani Longhilts? I'm not sure.

I was lucky enough to have Bin Gabaishas son (Bin Gabaisha of Thesiger fame) over this evening for a chat and he reports his father is alive and well and still buying and selling camels in the UAE. It struck me that the photo of Bin Gabaisha and bin Gabina looked similar to a group sketch of Omani tribal infantry I saw recently and I was going to put the two together for comparison. I digress....

The date of 1744 seems pretty well cemented in by the Museums and is the official start date of the Bussaidi Dynasty... thus the 1744 is taken as the beginning of the Dancing Sword.

I don't believe that the open connical flat hilt is in any way related to other swords without a cross guard except perhaps the Mandingo. It seems quite clear that the dancer was just for pageants and funoon activity.. though the few visitors to Oman in the 19th C. have commented on the weapon and the swordsmen; I think this is a case of mistaken identity... they looked fierce... the swords looked real... but were only for the traditions.

I see the straight dancing sword as carried by tribal infantry as part of their equipment but only as a badge of office or identity as Omani Guards/Military and for applauding the Royalty/ Bussaidi Dynasty.. not for use as weapons. The specifics are precise in this regard... see #1 for the comparison in design and the fact that the Terrs was awarded directly linking the two swords together...and both razor sharp on both edges, round tipped and with the Terrs Shield.

The question of a rigid stiff blade is rejected since the line of such weapons has been identified as souk made/ modified since 1970. It seems logical that anyone who wants to prove otherwise that swords of this nature existed prior to that need only prove that earlier provenance. I tried but simply couldn't.. because they only appeared after that date in the structure I have described from Red Sea Blades.

Would I otherwise suggest that there was no such thing ? Perhaps I should have said.."The Omani fighting straight sword based upon the dancing sword but with a stiff blade is an Omani fighting sword".... That would be completely untrue ! :D

Where does a blade, imported from Red Sea regions, which has been tang extended, and fitted up with an Omani long hilt, after 1970, in Muttrah, deliberately for tourists fit? Is it a real Omani sword, after all it was made in Oman (partly) ? The curved Kattarah has often an imported Euroblade with an Omani Hilt ... that's an Omani sword so why isn't this one? I've made the comparison before but if a Japanese blade is fitted to a Norwegian hilt in the same time frame is it a Norwegian sword?

It is for this reason that I categorise the stiff bladed version as a fake. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

The date of 1744 seems pretty well cemented in by the Museums and is the official start date of the Bussaidi Dynasty... thus the 1744 is taken as the beginning of the Dancing Sword.


Yet without a single piece dated to this period (at least that I can recall popping up on these myriad threads about the type) it is rather difficult to say what it looked like no? Surely for a sword designed as an icon something from the 18th century attributed to a particular person should at least be around?

Frankly I can't recall exactly what the museum told you, perhaps you can re-link the post where you detailed that? It didn't come up on a search easily.


The question of a rigid stiff blade is rejected since the line of such weapons has been identified as souk made/ modified since 1970. It seems logical that anyone who wants to prove otherwise that swords of this nature existed prior to that need only prove that earlier provenance. I tried but simply couldn't.. because they only appeared after that date in the structure I have described from Red Sea Blades.


Perhaps this would be better phrased that you have identified blades of this nature being made recently. However, this does not categorically rule out older combinations of the same predating the timeline you've given (1970).

You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century.

Since we haven't seen a single 19th century piece with provenance of ANY style (at least none when I asked about it!) regarding the straight bladed form, this all seems rather hasty.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Yet without a single piece dated to this period (at least that I can recall popping up on these myriad threads about the type) it is rather difficult to say what it looked like no? Surely for a sword designed as an icon something from the 18th century attributed to a particular person should at least be around?

Frankly I can't recall exactly what the museum told you, perhaps you can re-link the post where you detailed that? It didn't come up on a search easily.



Perhaps this would be better phrased that you have identified blades of this nature being made recently. However, this does not categorically rule out older combinations of the same predating the timeline you've given (1970).

You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century.

Since we haven't seen a single 19th century piece with provenance of ANY style (at least none when I asked about it!) regarding the straight bladed form, this all seems rather hasty.

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? :) The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.

The notion that there is another straight stiff fighting version on a long hilt is without substance and may be confused by the influx of Red Sea variants cross mounted onto Omani Long Hilts... since 1970.

(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??

I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? :) The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.


Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. :) I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.



(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??


I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.



I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain

[Gavin Nugent]

An expanation of item two in Ricks presentation of rare swords would be interesting;

http://www.vikingsword.com/library/rick_seldomwootz1.pdf

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

An expanation of item two in Ricks presentation of rare swords would be interesting;

http://www.vikingsword.com/library/rick_seldomwootz1.pdf

Gavin


Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Since you are asking me to explain I shall indeed respond to your request.

First this is not technically an Omani Kattara since it is straight thus it would be (if it were real) be an Omani Sayf (or Saif).

Secondly as it clearly states there is a certain amount of uncertainty by the author ..well placed in my opinion about this weapon...and since it appears to be a complete one off...no others appear to exist...what are we actually viewing here?

This is a non flexible (I assume) thick, pointed, wootz blade on an Omani long hilt. It is configured to look like an Omani 1744 design dancing sword. Does this ring a bell with you?

I have seen blades like this being lined up for workshop conversion in Muttrah... somewhere I have a photo of one similar...and I will dig it up. and another with the running wolf on it... same sort of blade.

Apply the well tested rule... Does it look right Wootz, Pointed, and thick down the spine without fullers ? and the main rule about dancing swords...does it bend ?...So we know its not an Omani Dancing Sword so what is it?

I suspect this is an imported blade (OF EXCELLENT PRIOR FIGHTING PROWESS) rehilted in Muscat after 1970. :shrug:

So what do you think it is ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I think it is a sword :)


Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think it is a sword :)


Gavin


Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons~ That it may well be but its not an Omani Sword... So what is it? Heres a clue... Its rehilted... imported and changed after 1970....wootz.... pointed....non flexible....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons~ That it may well be but its not an Omani Sword... So what is it? Heres a clue... Its rehilted... imported and changed after 1970....wootz.... pointed....non flexible....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I am still waiting patiently to see any single modern stiff bladed sword from the souks that show the age patina, quality of style, quality of detail and construction methods of swords from antiquity, one that is actually there now that you can bring forth to the table for minute examination and criticism... Thus far I am only reading conjecture and speculation.

About the sword in question, these are rather bold statements considering the sword has not been first hand examined by yourself and others in a controlled enviroment. Again, conjecture and speculation are all that your comments are based on :eek:

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. :) I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.




I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.




It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain


Salaams Iain ~ Last point first... but thank you for your input and I have a clear mandate ahead to really try to access the Museums data banks to verify the points I have already made and which is generally proven in their record at the National Archives and in documentation I already hold. Regarding the sudden shift from fighting weapon to dance item...Actually there was no sudden shift in my perception .. but what I did was to split the two weapons onto separate threads since they are of very different concepts and make up... though cleverly linked in that the two are sharp on both sides and round tipped and the Terrs Shield was given to both weapons. Much of the background is on Kattara for Comments but I felt each sword needed its own space. There was no sudden shift at the time it changed in Oman...The shift happened in 1744..when the dancing sword materialised. It can be thought of as The Bussaidi Dynasty Sword. You will see that I have compared the two swords and it is plausible that the sharp two edged weapon with the round tip style was consulted and transfered to the dancing sword along with the Terrs Shield...

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?

Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?


I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.


Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.


Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I am still waiting patiently to see any single modern stiff bladed sword from the souks that show the age patina, quality of style, quality of detail and construction methods of swords from antiquity, one that is actually there now that you can bring forth to the table for minute examination and criticism... Thus far I am only reading conjecture and speculation.

About the sword in question, these are rather bold statements considering the sword has not been first hand examined by yourself and others in a controlled enviroment. Again, conjecture and speculation are all that your comments are based on :eek:

Gavin


Salaams~ I don't do controlled environment inspections... What I do is get the sword in front of me and bend it ... does it bend? How far? I inspect the blade ... Is it an Omani Dancing blade yes or no? Is it a rehilt? End of inspection.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.



Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?


Of course I have not persued the Omani Dancing Sword in European collections why on eaqrth would I do a thing like that... I'm in Oman researching it. The dancing sword isnt holding some hidden European clue... Its an Omani invention... if it was Belgian or French believe me I would be the first to say so...but its clearly not. This is a 1744 design encompassing some factors of the Old Omani Battle Sword and the whims of whoever finally decided its finished form... I don't think a European sword has been near the design of this sword. It's completely different. Why are you hung up on a European design... Its Omani...

This is not the first time you have spoken about European blade marks on these swords... I've seen hundreds and hundreds of these swords...no European blade marks ...rough copies yes a few... mainly stamped are Islamic, Persian and British Raj India marks and a few rough wolf marks clearly locally done... where's the link in that...?

Might you be trying to resurect that European blades as having been imported for Omani Dancing Sword Blades? :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Of course I have not persued the Omani Dancing Sword in European collections why on eaqrth would I do a thing like that... I'm in Oman researching it. The dancing sword isnt holding some hidden European clue... Its an Omani invention... if it was Belgian or French believe me I would be the first to say so...but its clearly not as a brought on design encompassing some factors of the Old Omani Battle Sword and the whims of whoever finally decided its finished form... I don't think a European sword has been near the design of this sword. It's completely different. Why are you hung up on a European design... Its Omani...

This is not the first time you have spoken about European blade marks on these swords... Ive seen hundreds and hundreds of these swords...no European blade marks ...rough copies yes... mainly stamped are Islamic Persian and British Raj India marks and a few rough wolf marks clearly locally done... wheres the link in that...?

Might you be trying to resurect that European blades as having been imported for Omani Dancing Sword Blades?...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well I figured you'd be interested in pieces with provenance... I've asked about it multiple times now in this thread, not one answer. I guess that says all that needs to be said.

I'll have one last shot at this before I give up on this thread completely.

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Well I figured you'd be interested in pieces with provenance... I've asked about it multiple times now in this thread, not one answer. I guess that says all that needs to be said.

I'll have one last shot at this before I give up on this thread completely.

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?


Salaams Iain~ You may, as you wish, and at any time give up... that is none of my business... do what you will, however, I'm not giving up.

You have asked me several times about this European collections situation and looking back I think I have indicated my position and as a researcher here in Oman on the subject of the Omani Dancing Sword. Its an Omani Sword but certainly if I could I would examine European collections pieces. I live on the border of the UAE and OMAN ... It's a long way to Europe and I have, thus, no access to European collections. However, since this is the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword am I not reasonable in searching for details here? It is after all The Omani National Sword !

Your question about European mark is placed here in red;

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Do you think that a couple of Omani Dancing Swords with copies of European style Passau Wolf marks indicates some sort of design transference of that sword from European to Omani culture?

Personally; I don't think so at all.

What I think is that blade marks on Omani dancing swords come in many shapes and forms all copied and or stamped/chiselled here... from Indian British Raj, Persian Lion and Sword, wolf marks, talismanic squares, various geometric shapes, stars, to straight applied Islamic marks in Arabic e.g.God Is Great etc etc.

Why do I think they struck the odd blade with wolf marks? No doubt because they admired the mark perhaps of quaility in blades and for quite the same reason they struck talismanic squares on some blades due to superstition/ power to the blade/good luck/protection ... It is a fact that the wolf appears in Talismanic belief here (the abu futtila is often seen with wolf skin applied to the butt) so it could be simply that. I can't see how that implies a transfer in sword design. I have seen wolf marks on the Old Omani Battle Sword but I don't think that implies a European design in that item does it?

The shape and design of the Omani Dancing Sword, however, owes nought in my opinion to European sword shape and a whole lot to the previous stiff Omani Battle Sword... which even has the same shield The Terrs... and the blade is razor sharp to both edges and the tip is round... not to mention its role in the Funoon.

The hilt known generally as The Omani Long Hilt in a flatish long conical form poses another question as to origin but again I see no European influence there but if anything perhaps African Mendingo style though it is not clear yet which came first; The Kattara Longhilt or The Omani Dancing Sword Longhilt. Since we have the Dynastic Swords birthdate at 1744 I'm certain an answer is close.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain~ You may, as you wish, and at any time give up... that is none of my business... do what you will, however, I'm not giving up.


There's a lot of repetition on these threads meaning there's little point posting at the moment as there are several perspectives which are in complete opposition. I look forward to further discussion after you've had a chance to pursue your inquires with the museums local to you.


You have asked me several times about this European collections situation and looking back I think I have indicated my position and as a researcher here in Oman on the subject of the Omani Dancing Sword. Its an Omani Sword but certainly if I could I would examine European collections pieces. I live on the border of the UAE and OMAN ... It's a long way to Europe and I have, thus, no access to European collections. However, since this is the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword am I not reasonable in searching for details here? It is after all The Omani National Sword !


I'd suggested looking in European collections previously because of the issue of "freeze" meaning a weapon was removed and not changed for a specified period. Providing hard evidence for how the weapon was at differing periods. Hopefully you can find that locally.


Your question about European mark is placed here in red;

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Do you think that a couple of Omani Dancing Swords with copies of European style Passau Wolf marks indicates some sort of design transference of that sword from European to Omani culture?

Personally; I don't think so at all.

What I think is that blade marks on Omani dancing swords come in many shapes and forms all copied and or stamped/chiselled here... from Indian British Raj, Persian Lion and Sword, wolf marks, talismanic squares, various geometric shapes, stars, to straight applied Islamic marks in Arabic e.g.God Is Great etc etc.

Why do I think they struck the odd blade with wolf marks? No doubt because they admired the mark perhaps of quaility in blades and for quite the same reason they struck talismanic squares on some blades due to superstition/ power to the blade/good luck/protection ... It is a fact that the wolf appears in Talismanic belief here (the abu futtila is often seen with wolf skin applied to the butt) so it could be simply that. I can't see how that implies a transfer in sword design. I have seen wolf marks on the Old Omani Battle Sword but I don't think that implies a European design in that item does it?


It implies influence in the blades via exposure as do some of the aspects I've mentioned in the past. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure readers of the thread can and will make up their own minds.

All the best,
Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

There's a lot of repetition on these threads meaning there's little point posting at the moment as there are several perspectives which are in complete opposition. I look forward to further discussion after you've had a chance to pursue your inquires with the museums local to you.



I'd suggested looking in European collections previously because of the issue of "freeze" meaning a weapon was removed and not changed for a specified period. Providing hard evidence for how the weapon was at differing periods. Hopefully you can find that locally.



It implies influence in the blades via exposure as do some of the aspects I've mentioned in the past. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure readers of the thread can and will make up their own minds.

All the best,
Iain


Salaams Iain, No doubt I shall get the confirming evidence from the National Museum at some future point. On reflection I have to say that you have chosen to weave into your post several quite extraordinary and strage pieces of logic for example in;

para 1... a peculiar link between apparent repetition and no point in posting which I cannot fathom...and coupled to inquiries at the museum?..I am unable to unravel that.

para 2... Freeze? Are you suggesting that the design of the Omani Dancing Sword has changed since its inception in 1744? No it hasn't. Do you imagine that there is a 1744 document waiting to be discovered perhaps next to the original dancing sword in some museum? No there isn't.

para 3...I am amazed that you think there is some odd linkage between blade marks locally applied and dancing sword design. There are some blade marks with stars on them ... does that imply they went to the moon? :D

Lastly your suggestion that readers will make up their minds and seemingly placed as The Sword of Damacles over my posts is just simply rediculous.. This forum, in hammering out the facts, expects disagreement and at times heated debate and generally over the hot anvil of discussion takes no heed of whether readers agree or not. This post is alive and kicking and the twists and turns encountered have no place in whether people agree or don't. If they don't agree the rules are simple; let them either do nothing or join the debate! The ink is free !!

It is our job (as I see it) to shine a light into the dark recesses of a bleak and murky history laden with lies and deceit, errors and misrepresentation and hopefully at the end of the day appear with something closer to the truth. If we had a motto I think those words would be echoed in it...not roll over and die , give up or just nod your head and agree.

This isn't a trick with a bowler hat and a white rabbit!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to Forum..

I have just read an interesting article from J E Peterson ...see www.jepeterson.net/.../Oman_Diverse_Society_Norther... in which he expertly describes the quite diverse population in Muscat and perhaps points to sword manufacturing in the city..

Meanwhile here is an interesting couple of pictures showing two groups...I sketch of soldiers in 1840 in Muscat with weapons and a photograpg by Wilfred Thesiger in 1950 of Bin Gabaisha bin Kabina. I met the son of Bin Gabaisha the other day and he reports that his father is doing very well and still buying and selling camels!

The reason for including both pictures is to illustrate the similarity in the physique and hair of the two diverse ages... and to prove the warlike worthiness of both and thus to confirm the artist (Colm) in his portrayal of the men as accurate. It is known that Bin Gabaisha and Kabina were probably the fiercest bedu on the circuit more than 60 years ago and were true mercenaries, guides and friends to Thesiger.

What is significant about the sketch is ...straight dancing swords.. pushing the envelope for known swords of such description as far as 1840 and toward the benchmark date of 1744. It also illustrates the sword as unchanged.

These are Omani guard soldiers and carry the main weapon the abu futtila. So why do they have straight swords in their possession. The casual eye of the onlooker/artist would probably consider these as weapons but they are not. Like any soldier / officer today in the West there are those that are issued or own their own swords but carried only for the traditional parade ... for marching past the ruler / dignitary/ commander and for parade ground duties. When I say soldier I mean mounted cavalry ...although for infantry in the west the officers and certain high ranking senior NCO's also carry swords on parade... for the exact same reasons. Thus it was in 1840 and before, that Omani guards carried these swords since they would often be required to draw them in praise for the ruler and for pageantry duty.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

What is significant about the sketch is ...straight dancing swords.. pushing the envelope for known swords of such description as far as 1840 and toward the benchmark date of 1744. It also illustrates the sword as unchanged.

These are Omani guard soldiers and carry the main weapon the abu futtila. So why do they have straight swords in their possession. The casual eye of the onlooker/artist would probably consider these as weapons but they are not. Like any soldier / officer today in the West there are those that are issued or own their own swords but carried only for the traditional parade ... for marching past the ruler / dignitary/ commander and for parade ground duties. When I say soldier I mean mounted cavalry ...although for infantry in the west the officers and certain high ranking senior NCO's also carry swords on parade... for the exact same reasons. Thus it was in 1840 and before, that Omani guards carried these swords since they would often be required to draw them in praise for the ruler and for pageantry duty.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I have no doubt swords were used in parade, danced and for salute etc in 1840.

I do however doubt the picture can quantify that these are flimsy dance swords alone, especially in the era of 1840 and that there are no other swords present in the image.

The practical flip side to your suggestion, after all 1840 was an era or practicality not excess, is that these are the fighting swords and bucklers used by these guard soldiers after the use of a rifle has past...after all there are no other swords pictured and these swords are in the hands and on the belts of these warrior guards.
What were they to do if they are guards and they can not defend because they have bending dance swords as a secondary defence after the rifle was shot and combat became close quarters... :shrug: Surely not stop a threat with words...guards are meant to be at the ready at all times so it makes more sense that those pictured were their weapons as a guard would not be without an edged weapon in 1840.

Fighting swords that can equally be used to dance and pay tribute but by primary needs alone and the presence of no other swords, it makes more sense as guards have sword that work not dance with bends....

Gavin

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim, your tone is a little strange. Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too personally for a friendly forum discussion.


para 1... a peculiar link between apparent repetition and no point in posting which I cannot fathom...and coupled to inquiries at the museum?..I am unable to unravel that.


There's nothing complex or peculiar here. There are several points of view that have been presented in this thread, there is a lot of repetition in the presentation of those views. I've posted my views at this time, I see no reason to do it constantly. Personally, I'll be interested to continue the discussion when there's something else on the table - such as pieces with provenance or some of the museum documentation you've mentioned in the past.


para 2... Freeze? Are you suggesting that the design of the Omani Dancing Sword has changed since its inception in 1744? No it hasn't. Do you imagine that there is a 1744 document waiting to be discovered perhaps next to the original dancing sword in some museum? No there isn't.


The way to establish what has or hasn't changed is via pieces with provenance, period artwork or illustrations. For example you recent post with illustrations dated to 1840 at least show the state of the hilt style at that date. That's a great piece of evidence with an associated date.

I am simply curious to see pieces with provenance and associated dates for the same reason. I have no idea what museum documentation you have access to, how can I until you present it.


para 3...I am amazed that you think there is some odd linkage between blade marks locally applied and dancing sword design. There are some blade marks with stars on them ... does that imply they went to the moon? :D


We've had serious, perhaps even fruitful exchanges about this in the past, it's a pity you don't seem to want to continue that judging by your last comment. However perhaps it was intended as humor in which case I can only say... I'm surprised you're amazed. :D

In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. Similarly the use of triple fuller and single patterns of a length that corresponds broadly to similar European blades found elsewhere in large numbers at a similar time period is not something that I consider coincidence. Particularly when the primary sword form in use before the inception of this design by and large is flat without fullers.

Obviously this is something that we don't and probably won't agree on. A differing point of view...


Lastly your suggestion that readers will make up their minds and seemingly placed as The Sword of Damacles over my posts is just simply rediculous.. This forum, in hammering out the facts, expects disagreement and at times heated debate and generally over the hot anvil of discussion takes no heed of whether readers agree or not. This post is alive and kicking and the twists and turns encountered have no place in whether people agree or don't. If they don't agree the rules are simple; let them either do nothing or join the debate! The ink is free !!


Nothing has been placed over your head and I think it's a pity you've chosen to interpret a single phrase in this manner. My last post on this thread pointed out differing viewpoints had been presented. Everyone is free to assess what is written here and reach their own conclusion.

Some may choose to engage with your posted material, as I do on occasion, others may not.

That of course has no influence on the validity of the content you post - however a lack of response does not imply you are correct simply because nobody has bothered to post a rebuttal. As far as I'm concerned, the more participants the merrier.

There are parts of what you present that I find intriguing and raise interesting questions, parts where I disagree with your conclusions and parts where I appreciate the fascinating insight into the weapons of Oman you share. Your passion is to be commended.

All the best,
Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hi Ibrahiim, your tone is a little strange. Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too personally for a friendly forum discussion.



There's nothing complex or peculiar here. There are several points of view that have been presented in this thread, there is a lot of repetition in the presentation of those views. I've posted my views at this time, I see no reason to do it constantly. Personally, I'll be interested to continue the discussion when there's something else on the table - such as pieces with provenance or some of the museum documentation you've mentioned in the past.



The way to establish what has or hasn't changed is via pieces with provenance, period artwork or illustrations. For example you recent post with illustrations dated to 1840 at least show the state of the hilt style at that date. That's a great piece of evidence with an associated date.

I am simply curious to see pieces with provenance and associated dates for the same reason. I have no idea what museum documentation you have access to, how can I until you present it.



We've had serious, perhaps even fruitful exchanges about this in the past, it's a pity you don't seem to want to continue that judging by your last comment. However perhaps it was intended as humor in which case I can only say... I'm surprised you're amazed. :D

In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. Similarly the use of triple fuller and single patterns of a length that corresponds broadly to similar European blades found elsewhere in large numbers at a similar time period is not something that I consider coincidence. Particularly when the primary sword form in use before the inception of this design by and large is flat without fullers.

Obviously this is something that we don't and probably won't agree on. A differing point of view...



Nothing has been placed over your head and I think it's a pity you've chosen to interpret a single phrase in this manner. My last post on this thread pointed out differing viewpoints had been presented. Everyone is free to assess what is written here and reach their own conclusion.

Some may choose to engage with your posted material, as I do on occasion, others may not.

That of course has no influence on the validity of the content you post - however a lack of response does not imply you are correct simply because nobody has bothered to post a rebuttal. As far as I'm concerned, the more participants the merrier.

There are parts of what you present that I find intriguing and raise interesting questions, parts where I disagree with your conclusions and parts where I appreciate the fascinating insight into the weapons of Oman you share. Your passion is to be commended.

All the best,
Iain


Salaams Iain, Your post has interesting points which I don't disagree with in the least... for example In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. I agree with that... but I don't see the blades as having been made in Europe and imported... in fact I see the blades as having been entirely concocted and designed for and by the new Dynasty in 1744.

Fullering certainly made the blades lighter and more flexible but I have no idea where the principle was invented or which direction it came from onto this flexi blade form. If I knew which Omani sword came first ... The Kattara(curved) or The Sayf(straight)... I may be able to answer that. I think there are a few examples of fullers in the old Omani battle sword... but again I need to check. At any rate I have just read of Mamluke swords see a part of the document of Pisanellos Hat which for reference is, in part, at note below which has blades with grooves inserted much earlier. Still it's interesting since as you indicate a possible European link that could be the case in terms of the fullers or home grown or transmitted from Timurid/Ottoman or other Islamic Dynastic forms.

On the point of flat blades ... The Old Omani Battle Sword is, however, not flat. It has what I would describe an aircraft wing shape; ovoid and quite thick in the middle. It appears to be designed for slashing and chopping. That, moreover, is another subject covered over on "The Omani Battle Sword" thread...but which I am pleased to discus here linked as it is with the dancing sword.

No Iain! you are indeed a sword expert in your own right and any comments I make which may appear "sordid" (scuse pun) are meant only in the context of the short jibe ... "The parry"... oft used in swordsmanship and even more so in written exchanges... No harm meant at all... Nice to have your comments on board even if you don't yet agree... :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


From Pisanellos Hat.

Note; 18. SABER
Ottoman, late 15th century(?)

Topkapı Sarayı Müzesi, inv. no. 1/397.
DESCRIPTION:
The grip is of wood covered with black leather inclined towards the cutting edge of the blade and with a flat topped pommel cap of brass below which is a large finger rest. The guard is of steel with quillons that flair very slightly towards their flat tips, the sides of the pierced quillons are decorated with gold inlaid panels forming circles and rectangles, inside the rectangles are steel balls. The large wide blade of steel is single edged with a double edged
section towards its point. It has two shallow grooves along its length and a series of thin grooves running along middle of the top side terminating before the double edged section and is engraved on the right side with a roundel containing an Arabic inscriptions in a cursive script, and before the grooves a large palmette form. The scabbard is of wood covered with leather with steel mounts of the bar and fan clamp type.
NOTES:
Cemal Arseven attributed this saber to Mehmed I but his reasons for doing so are unclear. This is one of a small group of sabers with wide blades deeply engraved with inscriptions and floral forms that contrast with a series of delicately chiseled grooves. Many of the other sabers in the group have large spear shape quillon tips in a distinctly Ottoman style.The deeply engraved fleshy leaf forms on one example suggest that the craftsman
was inspired by Eastern Anatolian carving such as on the facade of the mosque at Divriªi dated 1228-29. Although the carved palmette forms on the blade suggest a Timurid origin, this and the other sabers of the same type were probably produced in an Ottoman workshop.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I have no doubt swords were used in parade, danced and for salute etc in 1840.

I do however doubt the picture can quantify that these are flimsy dance swords alone, especially in the era of 1840 and that there are no other swords present in the image.

The practical flip side to your suggestion, after all 1840 was an era or practicality not excess, is that these are the fighting swords and bucklers used by these guard soldiers after the use of a rifle has past...after all there are no other swords pictured and these swords are in the hands and on the belts of these warrior guards.
What were they to do if they are guards and they can not defend because they have bending dance swords as a secondary defence after the rifle was shot and combat became close quarters... :shrug: Surely not stop a threat with words...guards are meant to be at the ready at all times so it makes more sense that those pictured were their weapons as a guard would not be without an edged weapon in 1840.

Fighting swords that can equally be used to dance and pay tribute but by primary needs alone and the presence of no other swords, it makes more sense as guards have sword that work not dance with bends....

Gavin


Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ You suppose an awful lot from a sketch.

You have to realise that this is the earliest document with a sketch I can dig up from any resource so far... I have no qualms about bringing this to table since it fits perfectly my description.

The huge historical mass of information I have built up is behind the real reason for the sword being carried ... what I have done is to prove the authenticity of the artist who has captured long haired tribals at Muscat... as known and titled Guards of The Immam of Muscat in 1841. I have illustrated similar tribals in the form of Ibn Gabaisha and bin Kabina who look remarkable similar in 1950. I therefor think that the illustrated sketch is authentic but of course it cannot be relied upon to speak... Its just a sketch.

I interpret it quite differently since I know that this sword is only and was only for Pageants and as described in the national archives and Museums as such. Not for fighting ... Pageants only. Quite rightly it is shown on guards of the Immam at Muscat. What is not shown are other blades or spears and other guns save what we see. No other written detail is available.

You are not the first to be hoodwinked by this sword... but by only taking it on at face value you have automatically fallen into the same trap as the 19th C. European visitors did.. into thinking like them, that this was a battle sword. It's not. It was only for Pageants.

Compouned in that mistake you have mistaken a recent rehilt as a battle sword version of this Pageantry item, however, that is shown as a souk mixture of a Red Sea Variant, tang extension, Omani scabbard and Omani long hilt. A (from) 1970 Muttrah Special.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Salaams Iain, Your post has interesting points which I don't disagree with in the least... for example In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. I agree with that... but I don't see the blades as having been made in Europe and imported... in fact I see the blades as having been entirely concocted and designed for and by the new Dynasty in 1744.


I don't think the extremely flexible examples are made in Europe, quite the contrary. :) However, so far I have not seen a flexible blade example exhibiting any great age. This is partially why I've harped on provenance so much.


Fullering certainly made the blades lighter and more flexible but I have no idea where the principle was invented or which direction it came from onto this flexi blade form. If I knew which Omani sword came first ... The Kattara(curved) or The Sayf(straight)... I may be able to answer that. I think there are a few examples of fullers in the old Omani battle sword... but again I need to check. At any rate I have just read of Mamluke swords see a part of the document of Pisanellos Hat which for reference is, in part, at note below which has blades with grooves inserted much earlier. Still it's interesting since as you indicate a possible European link that could be the case in terms of the fullers or home grown or transmitted from Timurid/Ottoman or other Islamic Dynastic forms.

On the point of flat blades ... The Old Omani Battle Sword is, however, not flat. It has what I would describe an aircraft wing shape; ovoid and quite thick in the middle. It appears to be designed for slashing and chopping. That, moreover, is another subject covered over on "The Omani Battle Sword" thread...but which I am pleased to discus here linked as it is with the dancing sword.


Fullers themselves are of course not an indication of European influence, but the configuration, use of marks and basic dimensions of the blades can be.

By flat I meant without fullers. But well noted on the slight midrib some exhibit.


No Iain! you are indeed a sword expert in your own right and any comments I make which may appear "sordid" (scuse pun) are meant only in the context of the short jibe ... "The parry"... oft used in swordsmanship and even more so in written exchanges... No harm meant at all... Nice to have your comments on board even if you don't yet agree... :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Glad to hear it, communication in a virtual format is always a tad frustrating but I'm glad to see we are back to business as usual. ;)

I've got a few inquiries going on for you regarding some swords in European collections, if anything interesting turns up I'll post it here.

All the best,
iain

[Gavin Nugent]

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ You suppose an awful lot from a sketch.


Hello.

No more than yourself using the drawing as supporting documentation for the sword being a dance sword and carried by guards....makes no sense :shrug:

I must add, hence the personal invitation to attend a visit, that nothing is being taken at face value but as detailed examination of what I have here and others handled...the only hoodwinking going on is the absolute belief they do not exisit from antiquity :eek:

I and others I know have failed to be convinced with such little concrete evidence being bought to the table and resources out side of your country only now being looked in to but from afar. I do not need to travel, I have seen the rubbish from the souks and yourself being asked, have not yet bought a creadible dressed up souk sword to look like one from the past, because there are so many things they can not do to make this happen to support your claims.

I can't fault your passion and faith but the subject should have been explored a lot more and with concrete evidience after examing a 100 or more swords in and out side of your country before claiming absolutely what you do.

Peace brother

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello.

No more than yourself using the drawing as supporting documentation for the sword being a dance sword and carried by guards....makes no sense :shrug:

I must add, hence the personal invitation to attend a visit, that nothing is being taken at face value but as detailed examination of what I have here and others handled...the only hoodwinking going on is the absolute belief they do not exisit from antiquity :eek:

I and others I know have failed to be convinced with such little concrete evidence being bought to the table and resources out side of your country only now being looked in to but from afar. I do not need to travel, I have seen the rubbish from the souks and yourself being asked, have not yet bought a creadible dressed up souk sword to look like one from the past, because there are so many things they can not do to make this happen to support your claims.

I can't fault your passion and faith but the subject should have been explored a lot more and with concrete evidience after examing a 100 or more swords in and out side of your country before claiming absolutely what you do.

Peace brother

Gavin



Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons, In 1744 the new (and current) Dynasty required that a sword be carried by all able bodied men with which to salute in march past and in pageants the countries ruler. This sword was to carry with it the Terrs Shield. It was to be the sword used in the Funoon and mimic fighting displays as well as other traditions and displayed at civic meetings and weddings. Based on the Old Omani Battle Sword it had a round tip and in honour of the forefathers was to be razor sharp and two edged. The hilt; the Omani Long Hilt. Notwithstanding these attributes it had to be flexible; bending easily from the tip through 90 degrees and returning immediately to straight.

Since then some western visitors recorded this weapon as a real war sword. Geary, Wellstead, Frazer and others commented on the weapons apparent ability and in the hands of such excellent swordsmen the item could easily chop a man in half etc etc. The notion became concretized as fact when, actually, it was only a dancing sword. (It still has an important place in Omani Traditions and many are handed down Heirlooms of some value.) To compound the issue it is used in mimic fighting in the Funoon; The unwritten, passed down, Omani Traditions which soldiers and people have performed throughout history from the beginnings of Ibathi Islam here.

I'm not sure that examining blades outside Oman makes any difference.. I have done locally in the UAE.. if that qualifies ? but since I am here, in Oman, researching on the ground this national sword in the country of its birth...I think I am properly positioned. I have identified the route of Red Sea Blades spuriously masquerading as Omani Swords, thus, I know the workshops ~ something I would be blissfully unaware of as an outsider. It looks like the game is up on these imposters but I can assure you that if the slightest scrap of evidence appears in support of your idea I will post it immediately.

The 1841 drawing of Omani Tribal soldiers Guards of the Imam of Muscat.
Although this is just a drawing I believe it is very accurate. They would have used the sword daily as they came into contact with dignitaries and the Ruling Family all the time... Imam/Sultan meetings would have been very regular. What we cannot see is other weapons like spears and daggers. It is only a sketch but underlines the straight sword as being carried by this type of Royal/Imam Guard group. It shows that the basic straight sword scabbard and Terrs have not changed.

You have confused the introduction of a straight blade, non flexible, post 1970 from Europe, Ethiopia, Yemen and changed in Mutrah, mixed with an Omani Long Hilt and Scabbard and made to look Omani. On my next trip to Mutrah I will shoot some other examples of such weapons and hopefully the maker can show me an album of weapons he has sold under this guise...but I doubt it. There are, however, usually a few in his store and others. I believe the number of such mixes runs to the thousands(from one store alone!) since they have been churning them out for over 40 years.. Even if they only sold 5 a week it looks like about 2,500 have entered the world markets...held in estates...collections...looking very real but ... :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ Some silver work on a dancing sword... In the Nizwa style of typical "Arabesque" (a clue to the dancing sword blade manufacture?) The other known mass production centres are Salalah and Ras al Khaiymah. Zutoot or Gypsy wandering groups also were responsible for many blades made on commission pre. 1970.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, Note to Library.

It is extraordinary but only about a handful of antique sketches seem to exist showing Omani militia with weapons and equipment. Amongst the kit is the Dynastic straight dancing sword. Even European military Officers today carry swords on parade to do something very similar for VIPs and Royalty (there is even a special Royal Salute) Here is such a "weapon" The Omani Sayf. The Omani Dancing Sword also used at pageants (The Funoon) weddings and most importantly at tribal march pasts where the sword is raised high and buzzed in the air and even thrown high and caught by the performers. Here shown with Terrs the traditional shield, the Khanjar dagger and long gun; The Abu Futtilla (The one with the match).

Since saluting and pageantry was very much part of a soldiers daily life it is not surprising to see the item carried as part of their equipment.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Salaams All, Note to Library.

It is extraordinary but only about a handful of antique sketches seem to exist showing Omani militia with weapons and equipment. Amongst the kit is the Dynastic straight dancing sword. Even European military Officers today carry swords on parade to do something very similar for VIPs and Royalty (there is even a special Royal Salute) Here is such a "weapon" The Omani Sayf. The Omani Dancing Sword also used at pageants (The Funoon) weddings and most importantly at tribal march pasts where the sword is raised high and buzzed in the air and even thrown high and caught by the performers. Here shown with Terrs the traditional shield, the Khanjar dagger and long gun; The Abu Futtilla (The one with the match).

Since saluting and pageantry was very much part of a soldiers daily life it is not surprising to see the item carried as part of their equipment.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you very much for this beautiful post containing very important information.

Another note you could add would be whether the Omani sword was used in executing certain punishment to criminals committing certain crimes, and how did these swords differ fro other war or dancing swords.

Another important thing could also be the use of the sword in diplomatic gifts: Which Omani swords were usually given as gifts; from the monarchs to their outstanding subordinates, and between the monarchs themselves (Omani and foreigner)?

Frankly, I find you an encyclopedia; not just in Omani swords, but also in swords of nations that have shores on the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you very much for this beautiful post containing very important information.

Another note you could add would be whether the Omani sword was used in executing certain punishment to criminals committing certain crimes, and how did these swords differ fro other war or dancing swords.

Another important thing could also be the use of the sword in diplomatic gifts: Which Omani swords were usually given as gifts; from the monarchs to their outstanding subordinates, and between the monarchs themselves (Omani and foreigner)?

Frankly, I find you an encyclopedia; not just in Omani swords, but also in swords of nations that have shores on the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein


Salaams Ahmed; Thank you for your post and kind words but you are the maestro on Islamic Swords ...
The Dancing Sword is certainly the gift item..I think I have an example of that being presented at #1... There is another example at #29 on The Omani Shamshiirs http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16838&page=1&pp=30 of an Omani Shamshiir going to the famous Stanley of Livingstone fame... and another of French provenance being presented on the same thread at #31

The Omani Dancing Sword, howver, is often the gift item at many differing levels in Oman these days...(since so many presentations are required there is a steady stream of new ones being made for that market..gilded, framed etc etc) and of course the Khanjar is a gift item as well... and again at all levels.

Execution swords...In the early 20s in Muscat they used a caged Lion to "recycle" second offenders for very serious crime. The lion lived in a cage inside the Fort Jelali prison walls and prisoners were chained to the outside for first offences ...hopefully the threat of being chained to the inside would deter them from recommitting the crime...but, apparently, not always ...

I have no evidence of a punishment sword but there must have been some ... perhaps the big heavy backbladed curved Kattara was used... I will find out.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[AhmedH]

Salaams Ahmed; Thank you for your post and kind words but you are the maestro on Islamic Swords ...
The Dancing Sword is certainly the gift item..I think I have an example of that being presented at #1... There is another example at #29 on The Omani Shamshiirs http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16838&page=1&pp=30 of an Omani Shamshiir going to the famous Stanley of Livingstone fame... and another of French provenance being presented on the same thread at #31

The Omani Dancing Sword, howver, is often the gift item at many differing levels in Oman these days...(since so many presentations are required there is a steady stream of new ones being made for that market..gilded, framed etc etc) and of course the Khanjar is a gift item as well... and again at all levels.

Execution swords...In the early 20s in Muscat they used a caged Lion to "recycle" second offenders for very serious crime. The lion lived in a cage inside the Fort Jelali prison walls and prisoners were chained to the outside for first offences ...hopefully the threat of being chained to the inside would deter them from recommitting the crime...but, apparently, not always ...

I have no evidence of a punishment sword but there must have been some ... perhaps the big heavy backbladed curved Kattara was used... I will find out.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thanks a trillion for your kind words!

So, the "Sayf Yamaani" was also used in diplomatic gifts? I mean the "war sword".

As for executions and other dismembering punishments (that could've involved the use of the sword), one needs to know the opinion of the Ibaadhi scholars regarding certain crimes and punishments. Also, whether these punishments were ever carried out, or were compensated by indemnities, jailing, flogging, or other forms of execution; like hanging. The date may start from 751 CE till 200 years ago. You see, there were many events and incidents one could read about, like: The punishment of high treason, kidnapping, desertion, etc. Also executing prisoners of war was known at that time. Yes, a single-edged sword; whether straight or curved, may have been the type of sword used in such occasions.

Please do not think I'm pushy or anything. I was just trying to broaden the spectrum of this very important topic.

Also, please forgive my bias regarding the Sayf Yamani at the expense of the Omani dancing sword (this is clear in my obvious interest); for the fact is that I'm addicted to the Sayf Yamani;-)

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thanks a trillion for your kind words!

So, the "Sayf Yamaani" was also used in diplomatic gifts? I mean the "war sword".

As for executions and other dismembering punishments (that could've involved the use of the sword), one needs to know the opinion of the Ibaadhi scholars regarding certain crimes and punishments. Also, whether these punishments were ever carried out, or were compensated by indemnities, jailing, flogging, or other forms of execution; like hanging. The date may start from 751 CE till 200 years ago. You see, there were many events and incidents one could read about, like: The punishment of high treason, kidnapping, desertion, etc. Also executing prisoners of war was known at that time. Yes, a single-edged sword; whether straight or curved, may have been the type of sword used in such occasions.

Please do not think I'm pushy or anything. I was just trying to broaden the spectrum of this..very important topic.

Also, please forgive my bias regarding the Sayf Yamani at the expense of the Omani dancing sword (this is clear in my obvious interest); for the fact is that I'm addicted to the Sayf Yamani;-)

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed ~I am sure that in its day the Omani Battle Sword was much admired and that it could well have been a gift item at high levels ...and thus presented although rarely so. It was so honoured by the Omanis that they gave it the Royal Hilt treatment...in about the mid 1800s.

I can well imagine how interested you are in this weapon and since it carries the local name of Sayf Yamaani the apparent clue to where it could have been made.

When I get a chance I will view the execution weapons if there any existing in the museums etc.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Good day Ibrahiim,!

Are the curved battle Omani swords used for dancing as well?

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Good day Ibrahiim,!

Are the curved battle Omani swords used for dancing as well?

Spiral


Salaams spiral.. I am always very careful to distinguish what is meant by battle sword... The Curved European bladed Omani Kattara is both a badge of Office.. Slave Merchant Sword and Sea Captains sword for punishment and protection...and given the odd skirmish no doubt highly effective...I hesitate in using the term Battle Sword... Massed groups of men charging at each other etc etc It was never for that; The Omani Battle Sword or "Sayf Yamaani" is the true owner of that tittle. Used together with the Terrs Shield.

Your question .. The answer is yes I have pictures of this being done ... In the absence of a proper dancing sword a number of items may be used ~ camel stick, rifle, or other swords...In similar fashion in the mimic fight in the Funoon where there is no shield (Terrs...remember that the Terrs was awarded to be used with the new dancing sword at the start of the current dynasty in about 1744 but was the original "The Omani Battle Sword" partner) opponents may use a sandal in the left hand instead... However on swords in the mimic fight~ not a Kattara curved weapon ...always the flexible straight dancing sayf.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Thank you! Ibrahiim

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All... Whilst ploughing through library I noted Ingrams fine work on Zanzibar and upon the subject of the Omani Terrs ... The thick Buckler shield. This was used with their old battle sword The Sayf Yamaani but with the advent of the new Busaidi dynasty (still in power today ) the old shield was chosen to accompany the new dynastic flexible dancing sword for heralding the ruler and for pageants only...in about 1744. See posts #4,5,65,68,112,103.

Ingram notes at http://books.google.com.om/books?id=oYhrCkGaxyUC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=Zanzibar+gold+smiths&source=bl&ots=RbbA6EBPLX&sig=yhOkl1g1S5QBqzk6DPMkpoz0cMY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Nuw2U67KO8Ok0QXeq4DACw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Zanzibar%20gold%20smiths&f=false

Quote.''In former days many other industries must have been carried on, for instance Colonel Sykes (Climate and Productions of Zanzibar 1850 ) says :
“One branch of manufacture is carried to a considerable extent, that of round shields some 18 inches in diameter made from the hide of a Rhinoceros, which, after being soaked and boiled, can be moulded into any form.”Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

On passing ...so before I forget where I am ... these Omani shields said to have been worked in Zanzibar have a couple of geometric flat devices covering the outer shield at the 2 points where the spiggots are located holding the hand grip in place. It strikes me that these shapes reflects a certain geometry that we have observed in other Zanzibar swords... such as the Nimchas...with the odd pommel top decoration and the decorative marks on the quillon ends are similar.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

An odd straight Omani Dancing Sword with a numbered blade. New.

This sword was given its hilt and scabbard in the central region around Nizwa. The makers said that it(The Blade) was a "Roosi" The weight is double that of a normal Saif and the bend is ok but by no means a full 90 degree... more like half that...Roosi by the way means Russian..The assumption is Russian imported blade ... however I have to say it is the first I have encountered.
Weird number :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All..Part of the tradition involves handing over the history to the children...Here is the small dancing sword given to boys about 8 years old with which to practice the Funun ... The Traditions. Other new inexpensive full sized dancing swords shown are sold in the market as wedding accoutrements while old family heirloom swords are kept for special occasions and are quite valuable...

All dancing swords are very flexible, often able to bend fully from the tip in a full circle and then when released spring straight immediately. The swords are sharp on both edges and round tipped reflecting and in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with the Old Omani Battle Sword ...which had the same sharp edges and round slashing tip and was the only Omani Battle Sword... tried and tested down the ages.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Redirected post..

Thanks again for reinforcing the points I and others dispute.

Please show me a long handled stiff bladed Souk sword in complete antique dress in your hand...inlaid iron fittings or very high quality gold or silver fittings, ribbon wire threaded hilts etc, being the type I have handled.

To date I have not seen a single image presented worthy of any quality craftmanship even close to that os antiquity.

Gavin


Salaams~
But why would I seek out such a modern cross hilt...stiff bladed?? You mean an Ethiopian blade..... I'm not due in Muscat Souk for a few months...I have handled lots in Muttrah. see http://www.klm-mra.be/icomam/downloads/issue07.pdf where on page 89 you can see some swords several of which are rehilts ... The chap with the beard is a silver master in his own right... He did the cross hilts...like his father from 1970 onwards... I recall seeing and handling these and they were stiff blades. He told me he got them from Salalah and they got them from Sanaa from Ethiopia... One of them was marked Solingen. I believe I have pictured that somewhere...checking....oh yes on Kattara for Comments where I show some of the same swords as per the above reference from icoman...

What I do know is that the quite heavy iron and sometimes silver inlaid scabbard furniture comes from Omani Battle Sword Scabbards...but where a sword is to be used for its correct purpose (pageants) it has to be flexible or it will not buzz...That has always been the case. The stiff blades are not another type ... they are rehilts from Ethiopian blades. etc etc. and Omani people do not buy them... because they arent right...too stiff...Tourist Blades ... Like the one in your collection?

Here is Tipu Tip with a 19th C Omani dancing sword ...The Straight Omani Saif... with heavy duty Furniture to the scabbard...and in the classic style ...

To raise the price of the tourist variants ...(those blades brought from Ethiopia mainly from 1970 onwards), craftsmen copied this style exactly...adding the long hilt and scabbard complete from Omani style.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

See my other reply.

[Gavin Nugent]

Like the one in your collection?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Nice Edit....but I am sorry to say, I do not collect such items, only deal in them. my collecting interests lay elsewhere.

When you can find a suitable candidate for my request, please let me know and I will pick up again where I have left off. Doing so might really help your theory and add some BUZZ back in to the debate.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business perhaps?...Below is another enactment where the participants chuck the sword as high as they can and catch it by the hilt cleanly before it strikes the ground..Doing this with stiff blades would indeed be dangerous...as would be the mock fight and I have not noticed a lot of thumbless Omani men walking about...or worse still lots of dead performers... :shrug:

[Andrew]

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business...

(Note the quotation marks.)

I "request" you resist the urge to continue debating in this fashion.

The alternative will result in consequences including, but not limited to, closing of this thread.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Gavin Nugent]

Below is another enactment where the participants chuck the sword as high as they can and catch it by the hilt cleanly before it strikes the ground..Doing this with stiff blades would indeed be dangerous...as would be the mock fight and I have not noticed a lot of thumbless Omani men walking about...or worse still lots of dead performers... :shrug:

The "chucking" of swords in to the air and catching them has been done in many cultures with real swords. Many take it a step further and juggle them without injury.

Based on several quoted texts of old, the description of these swords describe them as being fine and razor sharp cutting edges so I do fail to see how doing this with stiff blades would be any more dangerous than a blade with bend to it, especially IF a bendy blade had these qualities.
A bend in the blade is not active in any manner of "chucking" a sword straight in to the air, it is the edges one must be concerned with, not bends.

For the mock fighting, the same can be said, why were the swords ever credited with being such high quality and razor sharp swords than can nearly hew a man in two, it serves no point in these acts is it is only to be danced with, why would one add danger to their lives and risk loosing a thumb as you say.

Like any act, which the dancing and mock fighting it, it is an act only, it can be done with the sharped or dullest swords.

Neither of these points you make add to the fact that the swords were not fighting swords...in fact they do in ways support the swords were able to be fought with.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The "chucking" of swords in to the air and catching them has been done in many cultures with real swords. Many take it a step further and juggle them without injury.

Based on several quoted texts of old, the description of these swords describe them as being fine and razor sharp cutting edges so I do fail to see how doing this with stiff blades would be any more dangerous than a blade with bend to it, especially IF a bendy blade had these qualities.
A bend in the blade is not active in any manner of "chucking" a sword straight in to the air, it is the edges one must be concerned with, not bends.

For the mock fighting, the same can be said, why were the swords ever credited with being such high quality and razor sharp swords than can nearly hew a man in two, it serves no point in these acts is it is only to be danced with, why would one add danger to their lives and risk loosing a thumb as you say.

Like any act, which the dancing and mock fighting it, it is an act only, it can be done with the sharped or dullest swords.

Neither of these points you make add to the fact that the swords were not fighting swords...in fact they do in ways support the swords were able to be fought with.

Oh well ..I thought I would add that in support of them being useless for fighting...hugely bendy flat round spatulate tips (not on a stiiff blade they are pretty pathetic as fighting sword...The razor sharpness is a traditional detail copied off the Omani Battle Sword. I can see how outsiders look at this thing... and I have documented about half a dozen visitors who have spouted off about this amazing two handed chop em in half battle sword capable of hewing down or cutting off limbs ...Welstead and the others were hoodwinked. Now the weapon that did the business was of course The Omani Battle Sword...Not the Heraldic Dynasty Dancing Sword ... but that to one side since your point is not with the flexibility of the dancing blade but with the stiff bladed variant which came out of Ethiopia. There is a huge difference.

What compounds the arguement in addition to the mistaken remarks of the earlier visitors is the flexibility of many other swords... I believe the swordmaker from the Shotley Bridge sword company took one of his blades coiled up in his top hat to a sales meeting and unleashed it to astonished guests. I know another sword I think from the Sahara which wraps into a coil and is used like a lashing whip...I understand the concept...but that is not what this sword is about...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I note you are now a dealer in Tourist Swords... cant be good for business perhaps?...

Another out of place and unfounded cheap shot.

The audacity of such a comment with its poor, inflaming and unfounded intent adds nothing but takes away a lot...but not from me.

[Gavin Nugent]

Would someone who is savy with creating a video for youtube please write me privately.
Anyone who is savy in test cutting too would be helpful.

With thanks

[kahnjar1]

Originally posted at #76 of the Forts and Cannon of Oman thread which is now closed, Ibrahiim has stated that the so called Dancing sword was "brought on and expanded into the population from the palace guards".
My question is this: WHY WOULD YOU GUARD A PALACE WITH A DANCING SWORD?
A sensible reply would be appreciated.

[Ian]

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally posted at #76 of the Forts and Cannon of Oman thread which is now closed, Ibrahiim has stated that the so called Dancing sword was "brought on and expanded into the population from the palace guards".
My question is this: WHY WOULD YOU GUARD A PALACE WITH A DANCING SWORD?
A sensible reply would be appreciated.

Salaams ~
Thank you for the question... I prepared the answer yesterday... As you know Palace Guards or Askeris were armed substantially with Khanjar, Spear and the long gun... The Abu Futtilla. The dancing sword when carried (and terrs) were ceremonial . A large slice of a Guards daily program would have been to do with pageantry... and salutation...actually not altogether removed from ceremonial guard duty today. Pageantry includes the mock fight which is incorporated into the Funun...and which would form a good workout as each man took his turn...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.

Salaams Ian, Actually it's not just horse guards ... The Entire British and many foreign armed forces of whatever branch Army, Navy, Airforce have Guards some of whom carry swords..and which ...though they would never be involved in a Battle are used in saluting etc...and even used at military weddings...quite a parallel with the Omani dancing sword.

A note on heraldry as it is likely that the Heraldic Society would never accept the terminology but it fits in general; The current Dynasty commenced very roughly in about 1744...and the Dancing Sword was concocted at that time or shortly therafter, thus, I term it Heraldic~Dynastic. To salute the monarch and conduct the traditions or Funun...until today. It had to be extremely flexible but was also razor sharp and spatulate tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with another weapon upon which it was largely designed; The Omani Battle Sword. See thread on that please.

I have compared the Dancing Sword with the Omani Batle Sword but the new part of the design was the long Omani Hilt taken from the Omani curved Kattara (see that thread please) which was a slave captains sword and Merchants Sword acting both as a badge of office and a defensive weapon/punishment item.

I have searched high and low ... but no evidence exists anywhere of any battle in which the dancing sword may have been used and when you see the blade it is pretty clear why... It is not a battle blade and is weak and very flexible... thus excellent as a safe sword to buzz at march pasts and pageantry. The killer sword in the Oman armoury has always been the Omani Battle Sword which could take a mans leg off but is stiff and configured differently in the hilt...

The late Anthony North expounded on the now well known theory of retaining a weapon that worked... That is the case here... The ancient Old Omani Battle Sword is honoured from about the mid 19th C with a replacement Royal Hilt which can be seen today~ even carried by the Ruler although any man can wear it...And most of them do! though at the time when it was inaugurated the population was by comparison much smaller and it permeated across the population rather than exploded but would have spread in popularity steadily..via the Palace and religious guards...

The very important functions handed over at the beginning of this Dynasty were from the Old Omani Battle Sword to the new dancing sword...including the buckler shield; as I say... in honour and for Pageant and Salutations...but not the fighting function.

Since 1970 masses of Ethiopian straight stiff blades have been expertly rehilted on Omani Longhilts and Omani Scabbards in Muttrah Souk Muscat having been imported via Yemen from Ethiopia...often made in Germany. These are not original Omani fighting swords but classed as Tourist items.

That is the point of the discussion.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

The example I'd be interested to see which I don't think I have yet in this thread or the other discussions about this type, would be a dated late 18th or early 19th century dance/parade sword. I've seen plenty of the more recent ones with flexible blades, but not a dated older one. :)

[Sancar]

Ibrahim, I'd like to adsk about the last photo with two swords in your last post. Are they also "dancing swords"? Are the form of hilts and blades of those swords specific only to the dancing swords? Because I remember seeing the exact same shaped sword in Istanbul Military Museum. It was a Memlük sword; belonged to a Memlük sultan if I remember correctly and it was definitely for battle.

I'm desperately searching for photos right now. But I am 100% positive it was very very similar to the swords in your photo.

[spiral]

Before this thread gets closed down as well, let me say that I interpret most of Ibrahiim's comments to indicate that certain swords have assumed ceremonial or ritual status rather than military status.

I think we can readily find examples in western culture where this is now the case. For example, the British monarch has the Horse Guard. These are mounted troopers who carry swords (and maybe lances as well at times--I'm not sure about that). In any case, these are ceremonial troops whose swords (sharpened or not) would be completely ineffective in protecting the Royal Family from a modern attack with automatic weapons. The Horse Guard adds pageantry to royal activities and reminds the British of past traditions and former "glory." I think this might be what Ibrahiim is getting at when he speaks of "heraldry."

As far as dance swords, I am reminded of Scottish sword dancing where former weapons, now ceremonial, are still used as props in traditional dancing performances.

So I'm having no problem understanding much of what Ibrahiim is saying here. It's not clear to me why there is so much heated discussion about this topic. What is clear, though, is that the Moderators will shut down this thread as well if it gets out of hand. Personally, I would like to hear more sword discussion on this topic because it is an area about which I know very little.

Ian.


I think the point here that people are arguing about is Ibrahim states that all solid bladed straight kattara with the typical Omani style hilt. {Not the all metal one.} are fake. {He believes only the curved ones ar for fighting.}

That all swords of that type should have very bendy blades & just be used for dancing. {since around 1774!}

But the modern copies he shows & the information he pronounces as gospel, that comes from the fakers of modern day marriages look like the copies they are.

But to malign every stiff bladed kattara ever sold or collected in the west {excepting the all metal hilts.} as fake, without substantiating it is wrong.

To say non of these swords were ever used in battle is wrong.

To say the sword was not very important unlike spears or guns after C.1744 is also wrong.

IMHO

Spiral

[Sancar]

Here are pictures of two swords from İstanbul Military Museum. Both are signed and there are no questions and doubts about their origin and age. I believe this will give new clues about the subject at hand(I am sorry that photos are a little dark):

First one is a Memlük sword from 13th century:

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1440.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1440.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1439.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1439.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1438.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1438.jpg.html)

Second one is an Eyyubi sword from 12th century; made for Necmeddin Eyyub:

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1435.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1435.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1434.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1434.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1436.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1436.jpg.html)

I know two little about the topic at hand(and I thank both participants of the discussion, I learned a lot from this topic) but to my uneducated eyes, these sword look very very similar to "dancing swords" mentioned here. They even have rounded tips. (I also want to add Indian straight sword Khanda also has rounded tips yet they are battle swords)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think the point here that people are arguing about is Ibrahim states that all solid bladed straight kattara with the typical Omani style hilt. {Not the all metal one.} are fake. {He believes only the curved ones ar for fighting.}

That all swords of that type should have very bendy blades & just be used for dancing. {since around 1774!}

But the modern copies he shows & the information he pronounces as gospel, that comes from the fakers of modern day marriages look like the copies they are.

But to malign every stiff bladed kattara ever sold or collected in the west {excepting the all metal hilts.} as fake, without substantiating it is wrong.

To say non of these swords were ever used in battle is wrong.

To say the sword was not very important unlike spears or guns after C.1744 is also wrong.

IMHO

Spiral


Please note;In order to help you differentiate the 3 swords I have placed above the pictures at #135. There's~

1.The Old Omani Battle Sword. Battle Sword. Straight and stiff.
2.The Curved Kattara. Merchant and Slavers Sword. Curved. Quite rigid..
3.The Omani Dancing Sword. Pageants and Salutations ...The Dynastic Item...Dynasty started 1744 but sword would have taken time to promote perhaps 15 years. Straight and very flexible.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The example I'd be interested to see which I don't think I have yet in this thread or the other discussions about this type, would be a dated late 18th or early 19th century dance/parade sword. I've seen plenty of the more recent ones with flexible blades, but not a dated older one. :)


Yes you are right... they are in somewhat short supply but I am looking and one will surely turn up. It would be interesting if I could find the initial commissioning document but no such detail appears to exist...and it is quite hard to determine the precise Ruler who kicked off the dancing sword trend but I tend to favour the first since he was also an IMAM...Having said that it could be that the item did not start until the advent of Said bin Sultan in 1804. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_bin_Sultan,_Sultan_of_Muscat_and_Oman

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Please note;In order to help you differentiate the 3 swords I have placed above the pictures at #135. There's~

1.The Old Omani Battle Sword. Battle Sword. Straight and stiff.
2.The Curved Kattara. Merchant and Slavers Sword. Curved. Quite rigid..
3.The Omani Dancing Sword. Pageants and Salutations ...The Dynastic Item...Dynasty started 1744 but sword would have taken time to promote perhaps 15 years. Straight and very flexible.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


That post was for the moderators Ibrhaim, but as you wish to engage myself, {although you ignored what I said & just posted the same stuff yet again, as if.. I failed to understand.

:D


So to reiterate.

I need no help to differentiate Ibrahim. ;)

I think you do... You missed out numbers 4. & 5. :shrug:

4. The straight bladed fighting Kattara

5. The straight bladed kattara fake made by dodgy Omani dealers in the souk.

Hope that helps clarify it for you?

Spiral

[Iain]

Yes you are right... they are in somewhat short supply but I am looking and one will surely turn up. It would be interesting if I could find the initial commissioning document but no such detail appears to exist...and it is quite hard to determine the precise Ruler who kicked off the dancing sword trend but I tend to favour the first since he was also an IMAM...Having said that it could be that the item did not start until the advent of Said bin Sultan in 1804. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_bin_Sultan,_Sultan_of_Muscat_and_Oman

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It really is essential to the timeline and history of the type as you've presented it I think, to show a flexible example dated to the 19th century. As I said, I have only seen 20th century examples of the type you describe dating back to or close to the 18th century. This is a case where concrete examples are needed ascertain this completely. Otherwise I'm afraid it will always be open to interpretation because there is a rather massive gap. Best of luck with finding one and please do share when you do! :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

It really is essential to the timeline and history of the type as you've presented it I think, to show a flexible example dated to the 19th century. As I said, I have only seen 20th century examples of the type you describe dating back to or close to the 18th century. This is a case where concrete examples are needed ascertain this completely. Otherwise I'm afraid it will always be open to interpretation because there is a rather massive gap. Best of luck with finding one and please do share when you do! :)


Indeed. What is equally interesting is the absolute lack of information anywhere connecting the early dynasty with the dancing sword. I take the formal guestimate of 1744 as the date of the first Ruler of the current dynasty but not a single dynastic sword clue exists and til now I have wondered why?

In seeking out the best contender for the introduction of a dynastic sword logic points the finger at the ruler; Said bin Sultan ruled with his brother for a couple of years 1804 to 1806 then singly after than til he died in 1856 off Zanzibar. During his rule a number of Dynastic items appeared including the Royal Turban and the Royal Hilted Khanjar designed by Sheherazad... one of his wives...and at some later date the Battle Sword was made a Royal Hilt. It was during this time that the strategic manouvre to develop Zanzibar happened...

Could it be that the dancing sword actually popped up a lot later than I am searching for... and that is why no very early swords exist?...Perhaps it was at the front end of his rule in the 1810 region...but that the full flow out to the regions and general population took a lot longer...(ie whereas troopers had the thing but the general population got it a lot later).... Thinking aloud...that could explain a lot. I have rechecked the Richardson and Dorr and few clues exist ...which is interesting. Their weapons make up a sizeable set of the countries museum stock.

I shall endeavor to research the archives at the National Museum since their display is dynasty dedicated.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Richard G]

Ibrahim,
I am a little confused here. Are you saying the sword hilt illustrated in post#68 on the now closed "Forts and cannons..." thread is a post 1970 muttrah souk rehilt on a german\ethiopian blade for the tourist trade? I can see it is a modern hilt but it's quality seems to me suggest a very superior tourist was needed to buy it. Would such a sword really be dismissed by a native Omani as "bazaar rubbish"?.
To me, it looks very desirable, at the right price, of course.
Regards
Richard

[spiral]

Hello Chaps! ;)

Heres a little montage of pictures to illustrate my view of Omani sword type 4... The straight bladed fighting Kattara.

First we have Mr. Tipu Tip. {As the Colonial English called him for a laugh...} Whos Real name was Hamed bin Mohammed.

Then we have Mr. Tiippy with A couple of other Arabs & Some Brit Colonial Officer type. Notice how they all wear fighting Swords, 2 Omani Shamsir & a type 4, Stiff bladed fighting Kattara.

Then this fascinating Bunch of Baluchi cutthroats employed by the Omanis as the Baluchis made good soldiers & Guards. Note straight bladed Saif helb by middle chap amongst all the shamshirs.

I suspect Ibrahim will say this bloke was waiting for the band to arrive so they could all have a dance, But personaly I reckon , hes a cold stome killer with a weapon... hes not waiting for top of the pops to start!

Then a number of Omani. Zanzibari rulers are presented to show the importance of wearing a combat worthy sword as a ruler.

They weren't going to wave them in the air & have a sing song! They were weapons carried to show there power... as were Tippy toes... Who carried both straight & curved kattara as illustrated above.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahim,
I am a little confused here. Are you saying the sword hilt illustrated in post#68 on the now closed "Forts and cannons..." thread is a post 1970 muttrah souk rehilt on a german\ethiopian blade for the tourist trade? I can see it is a modern hilt but it's quality seems to me suggest a very superior tourist was needed to buy it. Would such a sword really be dismissed by a native Omani as "bazaar rubbish"?.
To me, it looks very desirable, at the right price, of course.
Regards
Richard


No where did I say that? ... Its a hilt from one of the Museums. Its a hilt by a modern master probably 15 years old only. Regards, Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Hello Chaps! ;)

Heres a little montage of pictures to illustrate my view of Omani sword type 4... The straight bladed fighting Kattara.

First we have Mr. Tipu Tip. {As the Colonial English called him for a laugh...} Whos Real name was Hamed bin Mohammed.

Then we have Mr. Tiippy with A couple of other Arabs & Some Brit Colonial Officer type. Notice how they all wear fighting Swords, 2 Omani Shamsir & a type 4, Stiff bladed fighting Kattara.

Then this fascinating Bunch of Baluchi cutthroats employed by the Omanis as the Baluchis made good soldiers & Guards. Note straight bladed Saif helb by middle chap amongst all the shamshirs.

I suspect Ibrahim will say this bloke was waiting for the band to arrive so they could all have a dance, But personaly I reckon , hes a cold stome killer with a weapon... hes not waiting for top of the pops to start!

Then a number of Omani. Zanzibari rulers are presented to show the importance of wearing a combat worthy sword as a ruler.

They weren't going to wave them in the air & have a sing song! They were weapons carried to show there power... as were Tippy toes... Who carried both straight & curved kattara as illustrated above.

Spiral




Salaams Spiral, I am not sure what you are researching by illustrating these pictures ...what is your point here please...? I see dancing straight saifs and some Shamshiirs worn by dignitories...only...and some Khanjars of the Royal style..To a man these are being worn as a Badge of Office.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Here are a couple of old English drawings from Zanzibar.
Artists impressions were more than accurate in the hey day of world travel, conquest and documentation as they had no other means in capturing details other than writing.

Dancing with curved swords and fighting with straight swords.

Gavin

[Richard G]

Ibrahim,
When describing the pictures in post#68 of the closed thread you wrote
"The long hilt...and about which there has been all this confusion...added recently in various degrees of splendour to such blades as German/ Ethiopian and given Omani scabbards etc...in Muttrah from 1970." and there was only one picture of a long hilt, so I thought you were referring to that. That was what confused me. And to be ultra clear, the hilt illustrated is on a flexible dancing sword blade?
Very best wishes
Richard

[spiral]

Salaams Spiral, I am not sure what you are researching by illustrating these pictures ...what is your point here please...? I see dancing straight saifs and some Shamshiirs worn by dignitories...only...and some Khanjars of the Royal style..To a man these are being worn as a Badge of Office.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Sorry my answer was to in depth for you Ibrahim.

Strange You could not even see or recognise the type 2 Kattera carried by Tippi tu. :shrug:

Which I guess rather goes to show , rather like the shamshirs... leaders carried real weapons, not dancing swords!

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahim,
When describing the pictures in post#68 of the closed thread you wrote
"The long hilt...and about which there has been all this confusion...added recently in various degrees of splendour to such blades as German/ Ethiopian and given Omani scabbards etc...in Muttrah from 1970." and there was only one picture of a long hilt, so I thought you were referring to that. That was what confused me. And to be ultra clear, the hilt illustrated is on a flexible dancing sword blade?
Very best wishes
Richard

Salaams Richard ~ see http://www.baitalzubairmuseum.com/2006.htm which is the cover page for Omani Swords at the Bayt al Zubair museum Muscat. That is the hilt of a dancing sword in their collection. I have placed many on Forum on threads like Kattara for comment and this one ... To be classed as a dancing sword these blades must be very flexible ... stiff blades rehilted since 1970 just do not get selected by Omani men... because they are unable to buzz the blades in the air...Thus it is a non starter as an Omani dancing sword...and since they are an invention of the souk merchants from 1970 onwards they are classed as Tourist Swords... I really cannot think of another category in which to stick them...I have personally witnessed blade switches with extremely good blades...Solingen and so on but I cannot form a new sword category based on these ...no matter how excellent the blades are.

Reghards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

:shrug:

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here are a couple of old English drawings from Zanzibar.
Artists impressions were more than accurate in the hey day of world travel, conquest and documentation as they had no other means in capturing details other than writing.

Dancing with curved swords and fighting with straight swords.

Gavin


Thank you for the pictures... I just saw these ... Sketches are always interesting...These show a tribal dance by Africans with some sort of African swords...

Manga generally only danced with straight flexible swords...These arent Manga.( In Zanzibar only the Omani contingent were known as Manga so only they danced with their straight dancing swords)

The same goes for your skirmish at sea... African swordsmen~african swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you for the pictures... I just saw these ... Sketches are always interesting...These show a tribal dance by Africans with some sort of African swords...Manga generally only danced with straight flexible swords...These arent Manga.( In Zanzibar only the Omani contingent were known as Manga)

The same goes for your skirmish at sea... African swordsmen~african swords.

Thank you for your insight.

Other curved sword dancing will surface in the near future.

The straight swords pictured are however long handled Saif in the hands of Zanzibar slavers, look close to their rifles too and their faces too, they are from Zanzibar, one of the many accounts written about in the 1870's.

[spiral]

Strange You could not even see or recognise the type 2 Kattera carried by Tippi tu. :shrug:

Which I guess rather goes to show , rather like the shamshirs... leaders carried real weapons, not dancing swords!

Spiral


I see you missed the above post Ibrahim..

Here is a picture of Tipu Tip carrying a type 2 curved Fighting Kattara.

& a type 4 straight fighting Kattara. ;)

There both weapons & badges of Office, an old scoundrel like Tipy wouldn't carry anything else in reality would he... :shrug:

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Thank you for your insight.

Other curved sword dancing will surface in the near future.

The straight swords pictured are however long handled Saif in the hands of Zanzibar slavers, look close to their rifles too and their faces too, they are from Zanzibar, one of the many accounts written about in the 1870's.


I doubt they are anything other than tribal Africans in the employ of some slaver group... Not Omani. Zanzibari perhaps...but not Omanis. Africans used different weaponry. I wrote extensively about Ingrams accounts of the Zanzibari population ...they are distinctly different... he mentions the dancing and which groups used what swords..In fact generally speaking this is the region I commenced my research ... Zanzibar... since it is pivotal to the question when did the Omani dancing sword adopt the Slavers sword hilt?

Curved sword dancing...I mentioned several times that for dancing if the Omani Dancing sword was for some reason not available then the exponents in the Funun sparring competition could use another sword... I have seen this done in the UAE... Where a shield was unavailable a sandal could suffice...I have seen it done with curved Kattara and sandal ...but only rarely.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I see you missed the above post Ibrahim..

Here is a picture of Tipu Tip carrying a type 2 curved Fighting Kattara.

& a type 4 straight fighting Kattara. ;)

There both weapons & badges of Office, an old scoundrel like Tipy wouldn't carry anything else in reality would he... :shrug:

Spiral

Salaams Spiral,
No such thing as the typology you suggest...however, if you feel there is a case please prove it...

You may observe the Badge of Office designation on all Omani Swords..and Khanjars. It was a primary function in all cases.

Tipu Tip is shown with his heraldic dancing sword and the others are as I have described... Badge of Office in every case. These all had VIP status, even Tipu Tip ~ who enjoyed virtual Royal Status in his own right in much of Central Africa and especially around the Falls region which he dominated. He was half Swahili ~ half Omani ...see Kattara for comments on my description of him.

Did you know he was blind...? Perhaps you thought he could weild a sword? In his case the sword was very much his badge of Office. I imagine that his retainers carried all his different swords for him... I suggest he went about with a squad of them and depending on the venue he would select the sword... thats how Slave Lords did it...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Salaams Spiral,
No such thing as the typology you suggest...however, if you feel there is a case please prove it...


Type 2 is your typology. ;)

If you study this picture you will see it a type 2 kattara.

You may observe the Badge of Office designation on all Omani Swords..and Khanjars. It was a primary function in all cases..

Of course but the symbols of power come from weapons not dancing. {Even though a thin sharp sword will make a mess of a naked man or one with just a light layer of cotton covering their skin of course. {Hence triads often using melon knives to mutilate people.}

Tipu Tip is shown with his heraldic dancing sword and the others are as I have described... Badge of Office in every case. These all had VIP status, even Tipu Tip ~ who enjoyed virtual Royal Status in his own right in much of Central Africa and especially around the Falls region which he dominated. He was half Swahili ~ half Omani ...see Kattara for comments on my description of him.

As I stated above he carry's both curved & straight fighting swords in my opinion.

Did you know he was blind...? Perhaps you thought he could weild a sword? In his case the sword was very much his badge of Office. I imagine that his retainers carried all his different swords for him... I suggest he went about with a squad of them and depending on the venue he would select the sword... thats how Slave Lords did it...
.

Yes, perhaps there is a God after all... Karma at least , but he was 33 or 34 when he went blind, that's why he is famous for lamenting the loss of a good canoe as he watched it go over the falls. {While Exhibiting no concern for the slave women & children on board. :o }

I expect a blind man who lived a life like his could be still a dangerous chap... not much good for fencing but could still cause some mayhem.

In truth neither of us can see inside the scabbard of his straight kattara, It might be a thick fighting sword or it might be a thin Fighting sword? Perhaps that should be Omani sword type number 7?

It just seems unlikely its a dancing sword...

Spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

I doubt they are anything other than tribal Africans in the employ of some slaver group... Not Omani. Zanzibari perhaps...but not Omanis. Africans used different weaponry. I wrote extensively about Ingrams accounts of the Zanzibari population ...they are distinctly different... he mentions the dancing and which groups used what swords..In fact generally speaking this is the region I commenced my research ... Zanzibar... since it is pivotal to the question when did the Omani dancing sword adopt the Slavers sword hilt?

Curved sword dancing...I mentioned several times that for dancing if the Omani Dancing sword was for some reason not available then the exponents in the Funun sparring competition could use another sword... I have seen this done in the UAE... Where a shield was unavailable a sandal could suffice...I have seen it done with curved Kattara and sandal ...but only rarely.

I feel you greatly underplay the importance of Oman Zanzibar and Oman proper in relation to these sword.

I think the more valid question here is at what point did the Omani make this long handled fighting sword in to the sword for which it is respected today, the dance type that it is now as I am more tha sure they all danced with older swords in older times.

Personally, with all that is at hand, circa 1900 would be more appropriate to see this change from the dances with fighting sword in to the specific buzz bending dance sword type.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Type 2 is your typology. ;)

If you study this picture you will see it a type 2 kattara.



Of course but the symbols of power come from weapons not dancing. {Even though a thin sharp sword will make a mess of a naked man or one with just a light layer of cotton covering their skin of course. {Hence triads often using melon knives to mutilate people.}



As I stated above he carry's both curved & straight fighting swords in my opinion.



Yes, perhaps there is a God after all... Karma at least , but he was 33 or 34 when he went blind, that's why he is famous for lamenting the loss of a good canoe as he watched it go over the falls. {While Exhibiting no concern for the slave women & children on board. :o }

I expect a blind man who lived a life like his could be still a dangerous chap... not much good for fencing but could still cause some mayhem.

In truth neither of us can see inside the scabbard of his straight kattara, It might be a thick fighting sword or it might be a thin Fighting sword? Perhaps that should be Omani sword type number 7?

It just seems unlikely its a dancing sword...

Spiral


Salaams, He carries a dancer in that picture... Flexible round tipped dancer... with razor edges no doubt. It should be noted however that it is a badge of Office and a sign of respect to the ruling dynasty ...and used in the march past...so not purely dancing ...but what it is not is for fighting.

Actually there is another sword...I will advise on this in a day or so... another dancer... there are two sorts.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Salaams, He carries a dancer in that picture... Flexible round tipped dancer... with razor edges no doubt. .

Bonjour Ibrahim!

Can you not see it is a curved blade sword?

If you cant see its external shape , how can you see its cross section inside the scabbard? :shrug:

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Bonjour Ibrahim!

Can you not see it is a curved blade sword?

If you cant see its external shape , how can you see its cross section inside the scabbard? :shrug:

Spiral

Oh that picture! I was the first to indicate that this sword was in fact curved... A curved Kattara ~at Kattara for comments I believe at #21 and a correction at #25 on his correct name .http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&highlight=kattara+comments

Yes this is curved... It's The Slavers badge of Office and I believe a punishment sword ... Sadly many slaves, mainly males, were axed on route from central Africa as the word was that they werent in demand... women and children were more highly prized... In fact this changed when the spices fields came into full flow on Zanzibar but ... that sword I reckon was a murderous tool...Single edged heavy backblade ~often a European blade.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All ~On the subject of #157 there is a picture of Tipu Tip at the end of a group... next to him is a gentleman called Wali Mohd bin Salim Minindani..with a Shamshiir ~ Wali means governer.. I think the dancing sword with Tipu Tip belongs to the Wali. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&page=9&pp=30&highlight=kattara+comments at #253 where the same cross wired hilt is seen with Wali Mohd. Photographs of people with swords were often concocted for the picture sometimes with artists props.. It is interesting un-picking the details..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Oh that picture! I was the first to indicate that this sword was in fact curved... A curved Kattara ~at Kattara for comments I believe at #21 and a correction at #25 on his correct name .http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455&highlight=kattara+comments

Yes this is curved... It's The Slavers badge of Office and I believe a punishment sword ... Sadly many slaves, mainly males, were axed on route from central Africa as the word was that they werent in demand... women and children were more highly prized... In fact this changed when the spices fields came into full flow on Zanzibar but ... that sword I reckon was a murderous tool...Single edged heavy backblade ~often a European blade.


You were also the only person in this thread to repeatedly refer to it as straight! :D

I agree with your definition of it. :) Ive been trying to point it out to you through out this thread after all..


I would give the same definition for this one he also carry's in this picture.... Only it will be a straight probably European blade. But a weapon clearly.

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

Spiral

[David]

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about. :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

You were also the only person in this thread to repeatedly refer to it as straight! :D

I agree with your definition of it. :) Ive been trying to point it out to you through out this thread after all..


I would give the same definition for this one he also carry's in this picture.... Only it will be a straight probably European blade. But a weapon clearly.

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

Spiral


Salaams Spiral; will you please stop adding insulting notations to your posts such as;

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

In reference to the straight blade held by your latest photograph subject on the right is Tippu Tip the slaver... he holds a straight dancing sword in this picture and in others a curved Kattara..

The Straight sword is not for fighting. Not only is the man as blind as a bat at this stage in his life but the blade is flexible for pageants and marchpast only...meetings with other dignitories ...Eid celebrations ..and weddings...but not fighting.

There is a strong chance that this belongs to Wali Mohd sitting next to him. These blades are not at all European but made in Omani workshops or by special commission by Zutoot wandering gypsies in Oman. The essential ingredient is the flexible, two edged, sharp blade with spatulate tip on a long Omani Hilt. They are Omani blades.

The use of European blades was confined to the Slavers curved Kattara not the dancing sword. (This in fact has another interpretation in a single 17th century quote from a Dutch visitor however, he was referring to alternative blades on the Old Omani Battle Sword as being occasionally European but that is still under review and anyway set outside the parameters of dancing sword blades.)

In all cases all of these swords were used as Badge of Office for important dignitories. All.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about. :)

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

[spiral]

Salaams Spiral; will you please stop adding insulting notations to your posts such as;

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

.


Sorry if you feel insulted, that wasn't my intention.

It to me seems that state of play.

Anyway, Ill bow out for the time being until you or others provide fresh material . to breathe some fresh air into this thread.

Its rather like chewing old dry bread.

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

I think the pinky ring is the give away when deciding who is who...it is the constant.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Spiral, There it is again...

I have simply requested you dip your pen in civil ink... The subject is more complex than your incessant need to stamp your feet... This is not a contest..it is a team effort. Some of what you say is relevant but when you run out of content the tendency is to revert to disrespectful comment... off topic and not relevant to the discussion. If you wish to leave the thread that is entirely up to you... or you could consider your input and continue...The onus is on everyone to add fresh material and not to complain about the messenger... It is the thread we are trying to promote ... not ambush the author.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

In reference to the straight blade held by your latest photograph subject on the right is Tippu Tip the slaver... he holds a straight dancing sword in this picture and in others a curved Kattara..

The Straight sword is not for fighting. Not only is the man as blind as a bat at this stage in his life but the blade is flexible for pageants and marchpast only...meetings with other dignitories ...Eid celebrations ..and weddings...but not fighting.

There is a strong chance that this belongs to Wali Mohd sitting next to him. These blades are not at all European but made in Omani workshops or by special commission by Zutoot wandering gypsies in Oman. The essential ingredient is the flexible, two edged, sharp blade with spatulate tip on a long Omani Hilt. They are Omani blades.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This notion about blade types within scabbards and who owned whose sword is not fact. No one knows what blades are hidden within these scabbards nor who owned them. At face value the owner of the sword is each holding their own and I doubt these are props in the context of this photo spoken about. Equally valid suggestions are noted with reference to the photos and the context of the harsh reality in the day but are dismissed without fact.

For the most part the thread is just repeated and repeated notions that no other straight sword in the form existed other than a sword that bends and was used for dance...but without fact...no other sword presented or notion suggested with validity is accepted, just the same old non acceptance...the thread will never move forward with this one eyed view.

With all that has been presented thus far, no one knows when the long handled sword became a pure dance only sword that it is known for today.

I have held and owned both types, more than enough of each. One of the dance swords I consider a master piece from antiquity, some of the fighting swords being important examples. No previous amount of rude, uncivil, inflaming or slanderous comments while change the fighting swords in to Souk swords.
The master piece dance sword has a blade type not even mentioned within these pages. I will not offer it for discussion until this silly notion that no fighting sword of the long handled type ever existed. Knowing both types, I can accept dance only sword of today was drawn from fighting types and at one time they existed side by side until the earlier type became unaccepted, molded in to the requirements of a more modern time.

To date, all that has been presented, apart from one of the fighting types I shared have appeare to be no more than modern examples, modern masterpieces, poor quality and bad taste souk swords that do not resemble anything like the dance swords or fighting sword from antiquity, along with photos and pictures drawn from the internet with a false claim of what may lay within the original sheaths and period context from which the artist made his impression.
For the most it appears no first hand personal examples are presented in context highlighting required aspects have been shown...perhaps just a couple of simple profile shots of rebound hilts???... Nothing in detail or personal context of the type meant to be a dance sword.

Ibrahiim, please bring your best complete dance sword from antiquity to the table for dissection. One we can discuss at length and draw from. Lets discuss one for a little while and look at subject matter rather than what MIGHT have been.

[David]

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral
I'm sorry Spiral, but the when i look at post #157 the guy on the right (with the full gray beard) in the group photo is most definitely NOT the man in the singular photo situated above the group photo. Their facial features are completely different. The man on the left however matches the facial features of the singular photo perfectly, albeit he is a little older in the group picture.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

I had the same reaction as David when looking at the pictures of Tippu Tip. Lots of Google images confirm that this is the gentleman on the RIGHT side of the group photo in post #166.

The photo shown in post #160 does come up on Google as well. Considering the very different facial features, however, I suggest that the "younger" photo (#160) is actually a totally different person. The bulbous eyes with the very deep bags under the eyes, and the gaunt face and thin nose contrast with Tippu's fuller face and high cheekbones.

Attached are other pics of Tippu Tip

Emanuel

[Emanuel]

The younger photo (#160) is referred in a Wikipedia article from an post on the older Vikingsword forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002674.html, which appears to have the photo from http://bakadanka.blogspot.ca/2013/02/dit-zijn-slechts-een-aantal-voorbeelden.html .

The photo in question appears to have been taken by a Bojan Breceli in the 1860s. THis would put it about 30 years earlier than the group photo, taken in 1890.

Emanuel

[Andrew]

Salaams Spiral, There it is again...

I have simply requested you dip your pen in civil ink... The subject is more complex than your incessant need to stamp your feet... This is not a contest..it is a team effort. Some of what you say is relevant but when you run out of content the tendency is to revert to disrespectful comment... off topic and not relevant to the discussion. If you wish to leave the thread that is entirely up to you... or you could consider your input and continue...The onus is on everyone to add fresh material and not to complain about the messenger... It is the thread we are trying to promote ... not ambush the author.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Let's please leave moderation duties to the moderators.

[Emanuel]

And two more drawings of a younger Tippu Tip.

A frontal drawing by the Belgian M. Louis Amelot and a profile by the Swede M. Gleerup, both involved in expeditions in East Africa in the mid-late 19th century.
Amazing what can be found on Google Books...

Perhaps this confirms that the gaunt gentleman in #160 is not Tippu Tip :shrug:

[spiral]

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all...

I almost forgot to include the following dancing sword style which is essentially straight and certainly as flexible ...and you will be delighted to hear even more deadly looking for the imagined combat role for which it was never used. This is simply a dancing sword variant with a more vicious blade. It is said that the blade was bathed in blood etc etc ... which is more connected to the hype than reality ... but it is worth looking at since it does belong to the same family of Omani dancing swords....another heraldic pageantry sword. The terminology in the Richardson and Dorr Herritage document from which I borrowed the picture below is "Flambouyant".. I owned a few and picture one at #68.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral
Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source. ;) :shrug: :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .


Salaams Jim... True indeed and the same goes over here... I can show loads of prop studio pictures with swords 'n daggers added to clients ... It was part of the business... In fact I was just diving on some detail about Zanzibar and noted that the Goan immigrants chose photography as one of their skills ...along with jewellery making and musical instrument makers!

On the subject of Tippu Tip or Tippu Tib and avoiding the Disneyesque terms others seem to be slapping on him...the pictures show him singly at a younger age with a curved Omani Kattara and in the other picture much later on the right of a line of 4 sitting next to Wali Mohd...a local governor... from which he may well have borrowed the straight dancing sword...or switched it.

I show Wali Mohd singly at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments at #253 with the sword that Tippu Tib is holding in the 4 man picture..

The chap on the left of the 4 man line..I have in another picture below and he could be the brother or uncle of the ruler...for what its worth. The reference is from the Getty Images website and the character is third person from the right and perhaps, as I say, a relative of the Ruler.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Here are pictures of two swords from İstanbul Military Museum. Both are signed and there are no questions and doubts about their origin and age. I believe this will give new clues about the subject at hand(I am sorry that photos are a little dark):

First one is a Memlük sword from 13th century:

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1440.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1440.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1439.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1439.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1438.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1438.jpg.html)

Second one is an Eyyubi sword from 12th century; made for Necmeddin Eyyub:

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1435.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1435.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1434.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1434.jpg.html)

http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj504/rasnac/SAM_1436.jpg (http://s1265.photobucket.com/user/rasnac/media/SAM_1436.jpg.html)

I know two little about the topic at hand(and I thank both participants of the discussion, I learned a lot from this topic) but to my uneducated eyes, these sword look very very similar to "dancing swords" mentioned here. They even have rounded tips. (I also want to add Indian straight sword Khanda also has rounded tips yet they are battle swords)



Salaams Sancar, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10687&highlight=military+museum at post #1 and #14. Your swords are related to the museum pictures shown at #1 and I believe also a relative of the Wallace collection sword at #14...There are also some backyard rehilts of Ethiopian swords done in Sanaa that have a roughly copied hilt similar to those..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Sancar, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10687&highlight=military+museum at post #1 and #14. Your swords are related to the museum pictures shown at #1 and I believe also a relative of the Wallace collection sword at #14...There are also some backyard rehilts of Ethiopian swords done in Sanaa that have a roughly copied hilt similar to those..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Like this I think.....

[spiral]

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source. ;) :shrug: :)


No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... :D }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral

http://www.zanzinet.org/zanzibar/images/zanzibar_Tipu_Tib_1880-1900_scaled.jpg

.http://imagecache5d.art.com/Crop/cropwm.jpg?img=-17-1744-FBL3D00Z&x=0&y=0&w=1000&h=1000&size=2&maxw=1766&maxh=859&q=100

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... :D }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral

http://www.zanzinet.org/zanzibar/images/zanzibar_Tipu_Tib_1880-1900_scaled.jpg

.http://imagecache5d.art.com/Crop/cropwm.jpg?img=-17-1744-FBL3D00Z&x=0&y=0&w=1000&h=1000&size=2&maxw=1766&maxh=859&q=100


Note the two other indicators of national recognition of the dynastic rule invented at the time of Said bin Sultan..ruled 1804 til 1856 who moved the capital on Oman to Zanzibar ~and worn here by Tippu Tib..

The royal turban and the royal khanjar. Zanzibar thence became an important hub and the fact based on the slave trade controlled from there is too inviting to ignore as to the linkage from Omani Kattara to the Omani Dancing sword and the transfer of hilts to the Iconic dancing style...for pageants and dancing...only.

[spiral]

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, From time a revue or summary of structures allows clarity, focus, and direction and directs readers at the supporting posts and so that their research may be enhanced. I place the following for that purpose in respect of The Omani Dancing Sword.

Introduction.
The ensemble of Omani Swords comprises in order of oldest first as under;
1. The Omani Battle Sword AKA Sayf Al Yamaani.
2. The Omani Kattara.
3. The Omani Sayf (Sayf); The dancing sword.

*4. The Omani Shamshiir. Placed 4th but the date of its inauguration may place it as older that some of the swords above I place it here with an asterisk. . for later closer analysis date wise.

In order to address the complex questions which inevitably arise out of the contentious issue involving Omani swords and their peculiar provenance I place a summary of investigation so far on the details and influences that bring us to this point in proceedings and to remind readers that prior to these considerations Forum had very scant material to hand and thus at present Library is well served by the now vast amount of material to hand.
For the complete story the following need to be read since there is the inevitable interlinking through history of forms 1, 2 and 3 above and to which I add TVVs fine introduction to the problem in his Kattara for Comments. Thus the threads to study are:

1. Kattara for comments.
2. The Old Omani Battle Sword.
3. The Omani Dancing Sword.
4. The Omani Kattara.
5. The Omani Shamshiir.

The issue.
The main bones of contention are understandable…The fact is that the Omani Dancing sword looks warlike … as warlike now as it did to the few Europeans who reported upon seeing it in the early 19th C. The fact that out there in the world abroad there are many Omani looking swords of dance with stiff blades which must therefore have been for fighting or fighting and dancing…or were they?

Thus to assist members in this fog I propose the following broad based summary so that the issue may be clearer..This is not the final proof nor does it comprise the silver bullet solution but offers comprehensive discussion and details which though it does not point to a check mate does point the finger at probable cause… Maybe we will never produce the absolute answer… I would be amazed if we did since that is often the nature of Ethnographic research as is the time honoured technique of creating a possible theory based on what we are seeing countered by other well thought out and researched alternative proposals occasionally presented on a pretty warmed up cauldron of well meaning sparks and the occasional flame on the anvil of Forum discussion…i.e. If you think you know another cause lets hear it !

I list a number of topics that I have ventured into concerning Omani swords which on their own assume notes of interest but when grouped together offer a compendium of potential evidence, though, without absolute proof but which are the essence of the detail amassed in this regard.

The Omani Dancing Sword . AKA The Omani Sayf (Saif)
“Between 1744 and perhaps about 1810 this sword was designed as a heraldic dynasty and salutation sword carried by all Palace Guards or Askeris in Oman. The hilt is identical to the single edged Omani Kattara but the blade is flexible and spatulate tipped for its main role in The Traditions… It has continued in that role with the same Dynasty since its design until today. No battle has been identified in which it was used to fight with”. Because of some enterprising souk merchants who from 1970 (when Oman emerged from the virtual dark ages) swords with stiff blades have appeared as rehilts in various souks but mainly at Mutrah where it is estimated that in over 40 years thousands have been sold to tourists and which have somewhat corrupted collections all over the world..

To support this statement I offer the following documented information viewable at the threads above for inspection summarized as follows viz;


The 10 Point Summary. The Omani Dancing Sword.

1. This straight flexible sword whose hilt was designed from the curved Kattara was given the privilege of being accompanied by the Terrs Shield usually carried into battle with the Old Omani Battle Sword...It was sharp on both edges and round tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with its forerunner; The Omani Battle Sword (the two have been compared favourably at thread.) Its purpose was for pageantry and Dynastic Salutation only. Not for fighting.

2. A newspaper report by a sword maker in Ras Al Khaimer delved into the question of fighting with this sword and in a comprehensive column totally refuted the point… Neither was there any reaction by local sword or history experts concerning the report; for good reason perhaps? In no museum is the sword refered to as a Battle Sword...and in the Al Ain collection of Arab "weapons" it does not appear.

3. The vast and informative but almost unrecognised in ethnographic circles, Funun, a genre of pageant, dance and battle re-enactment pantomime forming the unwritten, handed down traditions vital to the study of Omani history and swords...and seen as a complete works at thread...This entire genre is completely foreign to normal researchers abroad who too often miss its importance. The dancing sword is The Funun instrument of Dynastic salutation… The two are inexorably linked.

4. In respect of the Zanzibar situation The slave trade, and the link to The Slavers Sword...much has been investigated including the important notes from H. Ingrams the secretary to the Ruler at Zanzibar and the significance of the Manga (Omani) dancers and their dancing swords opposed to the African and native Zanzibari equipment. In parallel to that it has been suggested that the Kattara originated in central Africa perhaps influenced by the Mendingo but anyway the long Omani Hilt appears to have been technically transferred to the new dancing sword … and may thus have been introduced via Zanzibar.

5. The manufacturing link of the Zutoot and other centres such as Nizwa, Sanau, Muscat...It is recorded that the wandering Gypsy of Oman who were a mixed Gypsy traveling people from probably the North West Frontier of India now incorporated into Omani tribes but entirely wandering in nature prior to 1970…who made dancing swords on Commission…Nowhere in the transcripts is there actual evidence of European trade blades linked to the dancing sword however the application of fullers may be a European aspect overlooked. I have no evidence of dancing swords carrying European markings... unlike the trade blades that made up the curved Omani Kattara situation which were virtually all European. If the Omani leadership wanted a dual purpose weapon / dancer why would they not perhaps simply have evolved the curved Kattara into that role ?

6. The strong influence of Said bin Sultan to whom the finger points as the motivator behind the dancing sword as Heraldic and Pageant. It was this ruler … during his reign who saw the introduction of several other iconic items worn in honour of the dynasty …viz The Royal Khanjar and the Royal Turban. The Royal Khanjar or the royal Hilt more correctly is also echoed in the same hilt being allocated to the Old Omani Battle Sword perhaps this is the third example during his reign of this kind of recognition… Could it be that the fourth is the adoption of the Omani Sayf; The Omani Dancing Sword with its very flexible blade for Pageants and Heraldic dynastic salutation.

7. Great care has been taken to identify the rehilting situation since 1970 till today prevalent in Mutrah Souk and responsible for several thousand swords drifting out to world collectors. It can be seen at thread where these originated and that because they have stiff blades they conveniently sidestepped local buyers because they cannot be buzzed in the air … a precondition for dancing swords… and because they appear from 1970 could hardly have been used here in 19th C battles…in Oman. These are Ethiopian blades and clearly identified on thread…

8. The mimic fight.. This has thrown more people than most things with this sword… The mimic fight is explained at thread and isn’t a fight but a one point scoring contest where the single winning point is won by touching the thumb of the opponents shield hand…end of contest. This is made possible by the flexible sword having a flat spatulate tip…Mimic fighting was not a bad way for guards to keep fit requiring dexterity, speed, balance and agility…It is part of the Funun.

9. The demise of blades owing to gunpowder. It is interesting that gunpowder eroded swords and spears but didn’t affect the dancing sword…why? The thread continues to examine its other employment not as a fighting sword but in its guard role as a Dynasty marker … supporter of the ruling Sultan and anchored in the traditions in the special genre reserved to honour the swordsmen of history. That is why it never vanished as did the spear and largely the Old Omani Battle sword though it survived being honoured with a royal hilt.

10. The Omani dancing sword is a weak bladed very flexible flat sword… It is no match for a hefty battle sword… It bends easily through 90 degrees and would be quickly overcome by a proper thick stiffer blade…The thread refers to Guards that carried it and in one sketch their spears and abu futtila … the real killers can be seen… but it is in what we do not see that is also important,… The Fort armouries with dozens of Old Omani Battle Swords for issue in time of strife… The guards duties which included pageantry and salutations meant they needed to have available their parade swords at all times… The Omani Dancing Sword filled that bill did it not?

Conclusion;
The finger of suspicion as to who brought on the design of sword known as The Omani Dancing Sword may be leveled at Said Bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856 and thread identifies how he or his reign brought about other dynastic items. This pushes back the potential date of inauguration to after 1804…and it is further possible that the diffusion from palace guards to general population may also be later…date unspecified as yet. This is unchartered territory but under scrutiny…The National Museum which specializes in the Rule of Said bin Sultan may have some light to throw…and I shall endeavor to press them on the subject.
It could be, however, that the First ruler in this Dynasty who was an Immam was initially its instigator in about 1744...which also makes sense since it is a Dynastic Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral


Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".


Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)...

Thus I show the Mwarcha Zanzibari dance below to compare swords, dress, style and tribal differences.etc. with the more regimented straight line formal salutation and dance of the Omani style with dancing swords and shields. Dress is quite formal including Khanjar.



Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? .

Obviously.

Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Of course not, as you know I don't agree with your hypothesis.

I am aware of the modern fake Oman swords sold by some Omani websites & the fakes you have posted pictures of. I though you possessed more than 2 though?

Anyway my question was serious before you distracted me with your Mantra. ;)

I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Spiral

P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .

[spiral]

Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.


Greeting Ibrahim...

As interesting as Ingrams quote is, you forgot to post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement.



Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.

.

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

by spiral I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Salaams Spiral, You speak of a book written in 1600... can you show me some of the extracts as I don't have that reference... I need to see what they mean at the time by "Yemen"( quite often Yemen meant or included the coastal Horn Of Africa)...and to look at sketches or descriptions of the weapons..(since I have no idea what is in the book).

They are likely to be unrelated...as 1600 was very early related to The Omani Dancing variant and indeed even the Omani Kattara. I would be interested to know what is recorded in the version you quote though I couldn't find it in my copy from http://archive.org/stream/tuzukijahangirio00jahauoft/tuzukijahangirio00jahauoft_djvu.txt though I did note that there were many discrepancies particularly in the many translations of this work... nevertheless I would like to see the context.

In another note you place~
P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .
Why would I not?... In fact the thread on the subject is started by me. See the Omani Shamshiir.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

by spiral I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }.


Namaste Ibrahim!

If you re.read the above quote , I think it is clear my reference came from Eggerton... I to do not have a copy of W.Thakstons translation of the work.{nor the original :D } Clearly Eggerton does.

On page 260 Hindu arms & Ritual... He states... "Jahingar in Tuzuk refers to a sword which "Flexed like a real Yemini or southern blade."

He references this from page.363 in Thackstons translation. {not the earlier translation work by which as you note is inaccurate by Beveridge..}

But if you allow me.....

linky (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Jahangirnama%3A+Memoirs+of+Jahangir%2C+Emperor+ of+India#)

A bargain for you at less than $250.



They are likely to be unrelated...as 1600 was very early related to The Omani Dancing variant and indeed even the Omani Kattara. I would be interested to know what is recorded in the version you quote though I couldn't find it in my copy..


mmm so despite not having read the work, & the fact the old Yemini world probably encompassed Oman, & the mention pre. dates your {changing.}concept of when flexible blades appeared in Oman . You still say there likely to be unrelated.... I personally suspect not!



In another note you place~
P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .
Why would I not?... In fact the thread on the subject is started by me. See the Omani Shamshiir.
.


Why Indeed... Your repley on the 16th of this month when I suggested you add it to your list was.

Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

Which of course doesn't prevent it being a very lethal weapon. ;) Still at least you added it in the end.




Ok so know Ive provided the information you requested from me.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer my question above & provide the text you mentioned that you still haven't shown.?





" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".



As interesting as Ingrams quote is, you forgot to post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. ].

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword. .
].


Please now do so. {that is to prevent confusion... post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. from Ingrams work, re. "only dancing with straight blades."} So that we can help move this thread through to the next step together, in the search for the truth about these swords.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Namaste Ibrahim!

If you re.read the above quote , I think it is clear my reference came from Eggerton... I to do not have a copy of W.Thakstons translation of the work.{nor the original :D } Clearly Eggerton does.

On page 260 Hindu arms & Ritual... He states... "Jahingar in Tuzuk refers to a sword which "Flexed like a real Yemini or southern blade."

He references this from page.363 in Thackstons translation. {not the earlier translation work by which as you note is inaccurate by Beveridge..}

But if you allow me.....

linky (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Jahangirnama%3A+Memoirs+of+Jahangir%2C+Emperor+ of+India#)

A bargain for you at less than $250.





mmm so despite not having read the work, & the fact the old Yemini world probably encompassed Oman, & the mention pre. dates your {changing.}concept of when flexible blades appeared in Oman . You still say there likely to be unrelated.... I personally suspect not!





Why Indeed... Your repley on the 16th of this month when I suggested you add it to your list was.



Which of course doesn't prevent it being a very lethal weapon. ;) Still at least you added it in the end.




Ok so know Ive provided the information you requested from me.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer my question above & provide the text you mentioned that you still haven't shown.?






Please now do so. {that is to prevent confusion... post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. from Ingrams work, re. "only dancing with straight blades."} So that we can help move this thread through to the next step together, in the search for the truth about these swords.

Spiral

Salaams all~ The question is posted requiring proof of H Ingrams the secretary to the Royal House in Zanzibar and an expert on the region just after the turn of the Century and probably in about 1910 for a book published a few years later in which he observes a dance in Zanzibar... quite specific ...in that only Omani dancers were involved..... In fact it is the Razha which as all Omani people recognise as being from the Genre of weapon dances from the Funun..which only uses straight Omani Swords of the flexible variety since its inception in about the early 1800s. That part of the Genre is called the Razha. Thus his stattement stands as correct...viz;

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

Furthur references may be checked by working back from my post at #189.

In Reference to a note Jahingar in Tuzuk ostensibly quoted in Eggerton.
The statement that the old Yemeni world encompassed Oman is understandably niaive ...at the time of the book around 1600 which in itself, though, fascinating, no matter which copy you may have in front of you (but I have to say 250 us dollars seems a lot since it is a free download otherwise) it has rather the reputation of being vague in places and innacurate in others~ not least because of the nature of the work as a sort of Royal Travelogue...and the trophies gained thereon... and since there are many translations/hiccups along the way. Whilst it may well be essential reading for Indian arms and Armour and history it remains a very blurred, minor reference and not one penciled in my margin in this regard.

However taking that copy as gospel for what its worth the statement about Yemeni or southern blades is somewhat misleading...because it could have referred to a host of countries production including Sri Lanka. It may well have meant some Horn of Africa blade as that was called Yemen on ancient maps in that timeframe 1600... or even European blades. There is absolutely no factual intensity which underpins flexible blades coming from Oman at that time..None whatsoever!

I feel certain that the National Museum would have noticed..:p

Naturally we are all alert at the potential of Hadramauti blades..and not least because the old Omani Battle Sword is also known as the Sayf Yamaani...quite possibly a Hadramaut blade or from the ancient town of Izki (in Oman) which has a quarter called Yemen; I personally suspect Hadramaut for the Old Omani Battle Sword*, though, there is no connection apparent for the Dancing sword from a manufacturing viewpoint. See Zutoot.

*I remind readers that the Old Omani Battle Sword was very rigid. (See The Old Omani Battle Sword.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword. .

And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....



And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral


Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of W.H. Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples, in 1931. ( I believe it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British period in Zanzibar and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule, see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth, Zanzibar under the Foreign Office 1890-1913, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet, A History of the Arab State ofZanzibar, London,1978,
M.L.Lofchie,Zanzibar. Background to Revolution, Princeton Univ. Press, 1965. See also theaccounts given by R.N.Lyne,Zanzibar inContemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,1905,

and W.H.Ingrams, Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience as an administrator from 1919 and actually later in Hadramaut where he displayed brilliant service ~in "Kattara for comments" ~though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought derogatory questions to this table in what Ingrams himself would perhaps have described as slightly inflamatory. Humbug even? :) Personally I wouldn't like to comment since rule 1 is quite sufficiently clear, though, the comment on fabrication is hardly one of complicit teamwork and honourable discussion for which I thought as participants we had signed up to....however....

Some disagreement appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) through H. Ingrams statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork; reported previously on Forum as "Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes"~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced by Omanis and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield; The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges, flexible and mounted with a long Omani Hilt. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; W H Ingrams was a well respected historian known in his day for his brilliant rendition on "Zanzibar and its Peoples" which I outline as;

Quote" This reprint of this celebrated classic text on Zanzibar makes available again the remarkably comprehensive account of the Island of Cloves, written by W. H. Ingrams and first published in 1931. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is essentially an historical ethnography of Zanzibar. The author describes local legends, and their important social function in recording and constituting the oral history of the island. Ingrams' extensive observations and personal experiences - both on the main island of Unguja and Pemba and the smaller islands which make up Zanzibar - provide a detailed and lively account of society at the time and make engaging reading. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is a comprehensive work, perhaps daunting on account of its size, but a joy to read and a rich resource." Said El-Gheithy, The Sayyida Salme Foundation."Unquote.

[spiral]

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of Wh Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples in 1931. ( I beklieve it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British
period in Zanzibar
and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule,
see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth,
Zanzibar under
the Foreign Office 1890-1913
, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet,
A History of the Arab State of
Zanzibar
, London,
1978,
M.L.Lofchie,
Zanzibar. Background to Revolution
, Princeton Univ.
Press, 1965. See also the
accounts given by R.N.Lyne,
Zanzibar in
Contemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,
1905,

and W.H.
Ingrams,
Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples
, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience in "Kattara for comments" though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring...from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought to this table.

Some offence appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) in his statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork which stated Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced in Oman and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield. The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges and Flexible mounted with a long Omani Hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


Well that makes the water Muddier but just feature more untruths. Disguised within a list of references.


I have great respect for W. Ingrams work About Zanzibar. Its not his statements or words I doubt....

You mention Chapter 39 pages 399

chapter 37 starts on page 399

it covers music & dance as you say.

No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

Chapter 38 on page 411 continues about music & dance.
No mention of swords is made. None... Never mind your fictitious quote..

{Although it does mention a song sang by the genital mutilator while sharpening his knife. "to frighten"}

Chapter 39 is about nature & starts on page. 423.

If you say your not making up falsehoods & lies.

Then please supply the necessary quote about your statement..


Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

Because the truth is, Its not true. Its not in the book ;)

You made it up. It is a lie.

Ingram never said it.

Spiral

[David]

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2843346?uid=3739840&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104396533277

[kahnjar1]

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2843346?uid=3739840&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104396533277
I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.

[A.alnakkas]

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ibrahiim, what Spiral is saying is that the Ingrams quote simply states "swords", not what kind or shaped swords or whether or not they were stiff or flexible blades. Your conclusion is therefore an inference based upon what you know of the Razha sword dance, though i am not certain that it stands as proof that the type of sword other are claiming here does not exist.
Here is a link to an entry on the Razha which does indeed seem to support that this dance is performed with flexible blades, though there is nothing here about the origins of the dance itself or what swords may or may not have been used the very first or subsequent times it was performed. Just as Morris sword dancing is done with dulled blades made specifically for the dance it does seem likely to me that when this dance was first created it was done to some extent with true combat blades.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2843346?uid=3739840&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104396533277


Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...

What your reference indicates is that ...first there was also another dance with daggers ... I will set that aside first as from another Funun Genre called the "Baraa..." very much part of the Funun in the Salalah or Dhofar region.

On the Dancing Sword what you say is partly right... before the springy dancing sword the Battle Sword was used in the Funun... (it goes way back thats why its called "the traditions")... It didn't suddenly start with the dancing sword. This explains why the accoutrement..the Terrs ... and the sharp edges and round tip are copied onto the dancer... from the Battle Sword. In this regard it is time specific as an invention at or about the start of the current dynasty but which I think is 70 or 80 years later... in the reign of Said bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856...

Your reference describes the Razha.... (I was not accurate in describing that) It involves the lines of dancing participants... The other pantomime or semi contest is the mimic fight...with 2 participants and the single winning point won by touching the opponents thumb behind his terrs shield.

It is however vital to separate the two functions of fighting sword and dancer. The dancer was never a fighting sword and no other derivitive of it existed with some thicker blade... It just is not there. If it was the museums would have them hanging on the walls and in glass cases and with write ups....None ! The Reference work from Richardson and Dorr would be teaming with them.... and the simple question to fathers, grandfathers and elders ... Was this sword or anything similar ever used in fighting?.... Puzzled looks.... Retorts like "are you crackers"?... hahaha!! general mirth and poking of fun and derision....and mutterings.... No way.

It therefor begs the question... where have these thicker heavier non flexible blades come from.... They are post 1970 Muttrah rehilts as described.

Yes you are correct in that I know what the sword is and indeed it is an inference logically based ... The Manga were the dancers from Muscat ... This was the Funun... so knowing that the traditions were only done with the dancer....etc... Inference...

I said there was no silver bullet at my summary, however, the great body of work is indicative of the heraldic, non combat dancer... with the flexible blade.... No other weapon based upon this form ever existed. :shrug:

Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I think that the link you kindly provided says it all...that the dance was performed before starting out on a raid. It would seem very unlikely that after the dance, the swords used there were changed for fighting swords.


Salaams khanjar 1. Why not?.. The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit. Most of what these guards did was salutation and pageant. They needed the Heraldic item to do all of them.

As a physical effort I agree done to intensity the mimic fight could have been quite energetic and maybe they got pumped up doing it... but they didnt go off and attack anyone with these wobbly blades and they didn't have another sword like it with a hard blade... but if a sword was needed... a quick diversion down the Fort Armoury and draw a Battle Sword .. or in fact no swords .. Guns only.. The Abufuttila..and/or spears.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Salaams David and thank you for your excellent reference on the dance routine. I simply cannot trace in my vast pile of notes the reference in Ingrams but I am sure it is there but he had several print runs over the decades...I'm sure it will pop up...
.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

.

You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

So basically, Ibrahim's argument to be summed up about the straight Omani saif (called kattara by western collectors but confirmed to be simply called saif by Omanis while the curved version is named kattara) is a dancing sword ONLY for 300 years or so is the following:

1- a quote that doesnt exist.
2- modern made swords.
3- claiming genuine antiques with non-flexible blades to be fakes. Which is baffling to say the least.
4- Using a news article that speaks about the modern dancing sword and that its not sharp "to avoid injury" and using it as some sort of evidence that the whole sword type is dancing only.
5- Using obvious fakes with poor taste mounts as some sort of evidence.
6- Lack of a 'dancing' katara that isnt 2 days old.
7- Using items altered in his shop as evidence.

At the risk of being banned, I call bullshit when I see it.



Ought you not to know better ? I refer you to the 10 point summary but would ask you to remain polite in your reply and honourable which is the tradition amongst men. Do you really expect that your 7 points can be seriously viewed? Have you done any research? Produce a counter play. Why would I not want to uncover a potential battle sword? I can tell you for sure that if another battle sword existed based upon the dancer design I would already have shown it... so come on lets hear your thesis on the weapon and if it holds water I will even go out and see if I can uncover one...Do you suppose I didn't try to do that?

I spent the last week with the beni kaab and they all had a good laugh when I explained the story. The ghost sword never existed ... It is a red herring.... It never happened.

For you however I invite you to drop in on Muttrah ... I will show you the workshops and introduce you to the artisans who did the switches... Nothing wrong with that if you know the souk ...They have done this down the ages... Its what sells there...You know?...business.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Ought you not to know better ? I refer you to the 10 point summary but would ask you to remain polite in your reply and honourable which is the tradition amongst men.

You have been disrespecting members who have debated you all the time. I guess perhaps, you should listen to your own advice. And I guess, thinking an argument is bullshit counts as disrespectful to a person? Well, thats interesting.

As for your summary, it is exactly the repetition of arguments that make no sense.

so come on lets hear your thesis on the weapon and if it holds water I will even go out and see if I can uncover one...Do you suppose I didn't try to do that?

If replying to silly hypothesis about a particular sword requires a real thesis in reply, I doubt there will be any research.

But thanks for the advice, you never know what might happen!

The ghost sword never existed ... It is a red herring.... It never happened.

The examples you have shown are brand new or new dressed old blades. Everyone with experience in the field of antiques can tell the difference.

Now examples that belong in many western collections (and Arab ones, which I plan to bring out photos of soon) are better dressed, have rich mounts that are simply a hassle to make for a fake yet you claim those are fake without producing any evidence.

Btw, we are still waiting for an antique flexible saif, all the ones we saw coming from you are new.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Bonjour Ibrahim!

You supposedly had your reference . 3 days ago when you posted this .



You were very precise then... Some haven't notice you only play confused ^ muddy the waters when your caught out. Your quite confident & concise when on the attack.

There have been several print runs... all of the same text! there called reprints, there not translations or interpretations!

So to reiterate you state.



And that is a lie.

It really is that simple.

Spiral


Salaams Spiral, I refer you to my 10 point plan but I do reply to your post in the hope that you observe the common courtesy demanded of this Forum since from my viewpoint I have studied this subject thoroughly whilst others have only scratched the surface... and I have always been aware of the heated nature of this discussion... heat is ok... when it's correctly turned up... The hot anvil of discussion.

There is a vast omount of work to be done on this sword both in and out of museums and documents and I must have driven thousands of miles around the country finding out the facts. Oman is a country that only ventured into the modern world in 1970... much is still undocumented fully.

Forum is the first priority insofar as I am concerned and if I have uncovered a demon... a sword that has no place in the countrys history then I will report just that... and I have done. It's a non starter... It's a red herring ... It doesn't and never did exist...I wish it did ...:shrug:

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Too funny...

The fighting sword type has been presented in form and in theory, yet you do not embrace it....you do not seek to explore it, only refute the data provided with wild guesses, long indirect stories and no facts to support further wild claims.

Your stories about what I had presented have also been changed and swapped around within the 17 months this thread has been running...and then without honour addressed in a most distasteful manner.... :eek:

Now the hard questions I pose are passed in full and other's questions are answered with so much fat any hope of a straight answer is lost.

it is all good fun. do continue.

Post Script; the entire notion of dances swords in a modern context is wonderful and embraced. But to go beyond the 19th century, the discussion should be "Oman swords danced with", knowing many types were used over time. The long handled straight sword was used for both fighting and dancing..it is all rather clear.

[Gavin Nugent]

The dancing sword was part of the tribal infantrymans kit.

Please refresh my memory, perhaps I read too quick...where is this historically referenced?

[spiral]

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Shalom Ibrahim.

To save the repetition of typing...

[Gustav]

Oh I almost forgot... No, I'm not a liar.



No, you are not... you are a person, to whom a false quotation means "to break a few eggs along the way" (quote Ibrahiim al Balooshi).

And that together with your scholarly attitude.

[Andrew]

Okay, gentlemen. Here is how this is going to work.

The next person (or persons) who is unable to continue this "debate" in a neutral, objective manner will cause this thread to be locked, and will receive a 10 day suspension of posting privileges.

This means you should studiously avoid including any comment within your post that the least aggravated among us might construe as rude, inflammatory, ad hominem, a "dig", etc. Perhaps you might even consider limiting your comments to---wait for it---the merits of the other posters' comments, rather than the posters themselves. :rolleyes:

We rapidly approach critical mass here...

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Forum ~ The well documented detail of the flexible dancing sword can be seen at the fine reference from David viz; http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2843346?uid=3738784&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21104401332677 and until I can trace the reference by H Ingrams who it can be seen at my post above was a fine historian who wrote the book on Zanzibar and in fact another load of anecdotes on Hadramaut ..who knows maybe it is one of those references that got crossed in the system though if my memory serves me well I am almost certain it was on the subject of Manga ...a structure I had never heard about until I wrote the reference in Kattara for comments...a while ago but researchers know well my predicament and that when it turns up I will place it here.

Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men...

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ... A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest... moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[spiral]

Noted in full Andrew. Thank you. Ive been doing my best...

iechyd da boyo Ibrahim!

To further help your reference search for the elusive quote from an unknown place,source or origin { perhaps by the respected researcher Ingrams or perhaps not... :shrug: }

Namely.....



Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.


These screen below captures may help.

Despite the whole book not being available online from google books, a word search on the relevant reference page brings up the references, even for pages that are not officially available.

linky to the book of words. (http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Zanzibar.html?id=oYhrCkGaxyUC)

Its a very useful tool, I found so anyway. :D

Fascinatingly the relevant song & dance chapters you citied are also complete! {Rather than having to use the internal word search function.}

{Its the 1931 edtion you original quoted before understandable uncertainty of your source set in.}



Meanwhile the Omani Dancing Sword wrongly or mistakenly mis-reported down the ages from the early 18th C by the half dozen or so visitors to Oman continues to stretch the imagination unabated though hopefully with restraint and honourability amongst men... I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon. Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...moreover they are bendy to 90 degrees some less than others

Have you considered that the fact in your imagination & that of your trader friends & associates in fake Omani swords that all fighting blades are rigid, could be wrong?.

Historically in many cultures this is wrong! A blow from a razor sharp 30 inch or whatever blade of thin whippy spring steel construction will cut you to the bone, slide down the bone & remove great hanging pieces of flesh & sinew , slicing arteries as it does so.

Highly efficient against tribesmen peasants & slaves, {not to mention women & children. :o } {ref. page 144 in Ingrams excellent work..}wearing a thin dress of cotton at most.

That is a fact.

If you & your associates down at the dockside souks are unaware of it that's another thing. ...Have you contemplated that as possible Ibrahim? Perhaps a little wider research will help you there? :shrug:

Skinny spring steels blades will strip you bare to the bone......If razor sharp of course...

Spiral

[spiral]

O yes, before I forget, Please if you ever find the elusive source of your statement re. Ingrams certainty that only straight dancing swords were used.

Please add it to this thread.... There many waiting to see the source in its entirety & properly referenced. As you know.. some people may be just a touch sceptical... ;)

Its seems terrible to not be able to fathom the true source of such a critical & important statement, that so supported you in your 17 month long thread, particularily in your hour of need in the face of so much scepticism from myself & so many other forum members. :eek:

Hwyl fawr am nawr Ibrahim!

spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

O yes, before I forget, Please if you ever find the elusive source of your statement re. Ingrams certainty that only straight dancing swords were used.

Please add it to this thread.... There many waiting to see the source in its entirety & properly referenced. As you know.. some people may be just a touch sceptical... ;)

Its seems terrible to not be able to fathom the true source of such a critical & important statement, that so supported you in your 17 month long thread, particularily in your hour of need in the face of so much scepticism from myself & so many other forum members. :eek:

Hwyl fawr am nawr Ibrahim!

spiral

Salaams Spiral... I'm so glad you found the reference on page 205 as I thought I was going crackers ! How on earth I was supposed to have made that lot up is beyond me... So the reference is accurate viz as is the other reference by David(used in my second paragraph below) who quite correctly has seen the detail of the straight sword as belonging in my logical assessment or inference ... ie I know the sword was straight because that's the shape of the Funun sword. I hope you allow inference in the detective story of this sword... and insofar as written down transcript I trust you are aware of the unwritten history of the Funun.

On the subject of Funun and the straight sword see http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...=21104401332677 where it explains the weapon used in Razha. Consider what sword may have been first used in the Funun and in that regard the Old Omani Battle Sword fits... pre the Dynastic Sword or flexible dancer..

What this pair of references has effectively done is to close out any interlopers in the time frame. What it cannot show is what occured much later in 1970 when Oman opened the door into the late 20th Century and the through trade between souks flourished not least with blade rehilting which was quite prolific ...but the story has been told...

On with the show !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I repeat that at the start I was so taken in by the furore and warlike nature of the sword in its mimic fight that I too thought it was a fighting weapon.

Please look back along these roads, there is still much to see and consider.

Having looked at hundreds of blades I have seen none that qualify as battle worthy. I have spoken to many many Omani people in and out of the Souk and examined blades there and in the Museums where I have seen no battle blades ... that is stuff blades ...

What is a battle worthy blade to you? Please describe this.

Have a look here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcLH9p-mKsY

Jian are of a less broad elliptical cross section, sometimes diamond cross section and typically without fullers, take particular note of the flex.

moreover they are bendy to over 90 degrees some more or less than others by a few degrees. They are very flexible... and clearly this blade type is no fighter...not only because the question has been asked here where they just laugh at the notion but because it simply doesn't stack up ...

But it does stack up. Would you like me to show you how an Omani straight sword, one you consider is for dance only, how it cuts in real life. You ask for proof, will this along with all the other written words from time past, convince you?

A rigid blade would make mincemeat of this in a real contest...

Study sword play please, the heavier blade will not make mincemeat of a lighter supple blade, the lighter supple blade is faster in the hand, like a razor and bends to its masters hand. The skilled warrior with such a light sword will conquer the enemy much quicker and without effort...the long handle offers a wonder twist in fighting too.

moreover it is the famed dancer of Funun traditional dancing...and despite its sharp edges it simply cannot be something it is not.


Indeed it is famous in the funun, its origins and purpose as missed by you though.

To date no known battle sword in this configuration exists

But it does, it stares you in the face and sits in your hands.

except in the imagination of the early 19th C visitors etc but people are doubly hoodwinked by those narratives and the appearance in Souks of the Ethiopian blade ... please allow me to smile at this point... its amazing.... Where was I..?. Oh yes the Ethiopian blade rehilted on the Omani longhilt from about 1970.

It is amazing, very amazing, amazing only for the single blade type you have presented as a souk sword from Ethiopia, a very stout and standard fullered blade type of EU origins made for the Ethiopian market, not even close to the form this far of these fair Oman swords.
It is further amazing that the blade proportions and types of the Oman sword being discussed are not found in the Ethiopian sword forms. Of the 25+ forms I have handled over hundreds of Ethiopian swords and thousands more I have viewed, the blade type found in the Oman long handled sword it not one of them. I will not say they do not exist, there may be several examples from northern borders but the claim that Souks have remounted Ethiopian blade in long hilted Omani style, is to this point not shown or proved beyond your hearsay...which is contrary to the facts I note above.

Some forum members have alluded to this blade or a fighting blade with a thick stiff blade ...that is built like a dancing sword ..It does not exist in reality as a historical fact...It is a red herring. Tribal soldiers carried the Sword and Terrs as part of their equipment since they were required to do pageant and saluting with it all the time and to stay fit the mimic fight was quite useful but done more in the pageant...in The Funun as at the reference at the top of this post.

The long handled form carries both blade forms, heavy and light. Complete and further study will eventually lead you fact to your first thoughts about the sword.

Anyone who is somehow able to conjure up a completely unknown weapon of this description will become instantly famous ... An as yet undiscovered fighting sword of Oman. Those individuals who reckon it exists are requested in the time honoured way; to prove it.

Would you like my autograph :-) I can't take credit though, it has always been there.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ...I am fully aware of flexible blade use ... The Shotley Bridge maker hid one in his bowler hat and amazed onlookers at a trade show...I know many nations used such flexible weapons.. but you know that Omani dancing swords were never used in a battle ... In addition what you are trying to show is a firm stiff blade built along the same lines as the dancing sword~ that has never been part of history here. It never happened.

I have explained the story of the dancer in full ... I don't know any more info such is the vast degree of stuff I have presented from the Funun ~Omani tradition~ through Ingrams and Skeens notes above and all the details at the now famous summary on thread.

Cutting in half bamboo or watermellons does not prove the sword battle capable...or that it was used for fighting in the past... The edges were sharp for another reason... In honour etc as explained. The sword that did the damage was the Old Omani Battle Sword.

I think the request to show an old dancing sword is reasonable and I shall endeavor to do just that. There are however no in between swords or a ghost weapon that no one has noticed save the rehilt situation...which everyone is up in arms about when it is only human nature ...I estimate thousands were released onto world collections over the almost half decade of rehilting..This was done with Sanaa rehilts and Muscat work... in some cases expertly carried out. People are almost damning of the process but it happened and is still going on...does that mean the Muttrah people dont have good swords?..

Ha ! I can say that given the choice If I am in Muscat and its a spin up Museums or Muttrah Souk ... Take me to the souk any day! because amongst it all there are the genuine items...and in fact...they also have provided the real McCoy on occasions to the Museums !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I don't feel hat or belt swords even need a mention here, flexible swords, worn suspended in the open real world are not parallel.

The full dancer story has its merit here, only in that the dancing with a sword is a long tradition. The use of a sword in the Funun in noted...But regarding the types of blades and use of the sword in the past, nothing thus far, has proved the sword type under discussion was "ONLY" used to dance.
Nothing thus far has proved the sword of exact same visual form that carries a heavier blade is from the Souks.
To show you this detail, also please bring your best Souk fake to the table too and we can then compare it pound for pound, however make sure it is the absolute best though, in proper old and complete dress, with all the silver trimming of the best dance sword you care to show, anything less is not worth wasting our time on....you know, the type you said carry all old original hilts and fittings.
Please also refer to my notes about the Ethiopian sword types and surprise me, show me one of these old blades that mirror the Oman swords shape in native context or freshly arrived Souk port complete and intact from Ethiopia.
I have nothing against what they do in the Souk, however, I do and have noted that the Souk copy sword shown is in bad taste. It does not, from the sinlge image presented, even resemble an Omani sword.

Thank you.

[Gavin Nugent]

The edges were sharp for another reason... In honour etc as explained.

To further my previous posts, can you also please quote the historical passages/references where it notes Omani swords were only sharpened for honour of forefathers. I can not find it :shrug:

Thanks

[spiral]

Salaams Spiral... I'm so glad you found the reference on page 205 as I thought I was going crackers ! How on earth I was supposed to have made that lot up is beyond me... .


No one doubted that reference or said it didn't exist.

Your Engish is better than many peoples born in England. you know that.

This is the one I repeatedly asked you to justify.

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
.

You know... the one that doesn't exist, but you repeatedly stated did even when challenged.

spiral

[Andrew]

To avoid providing unwanted grist for the rumor mill, please be advised the mod team closed this thread temporarily so we may discuss it.

While under discussion, I strongly advise against perpetuating this "debate" elsewhere on the forum, be it in an existing thread or a new thread.

By all means, however, feel free to take it to 4Chan, PM or private email.

:rolleyes:

[Andrew]

The mod team has completed our review and discussion of this thread. Our decision is that it will remain closed.

Anyone with the intestinal fortitude to wade through this thread with an objective eye would agree with this decision--indeed, he or she would marvel at how long it was permitted to remain open.

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Andrew
Vikingsword Staff