semi-dual edged badik? [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Moshah

4th February 2013, 02:01 AM

Hello Moshah,

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

From my observation, the besi used was similar to the type that we always see in kerises. Perhaps no nickel contents, hence no pamor.

The characteristic of the besi was also akin to some Malay kerises that I have, made me so inclined to say it's a Malay badik. But from my understanding, Malay badiks usually will have a "mar" or "temin" - a round base before the tang (pix) which is not present on the badik of question here. This is why I was not prepare to expect that it was a Malay badik... :shrug:

Moshah

5th February 2013, 07:40 AM

I believe your blade was made from wesi/besi malela (a heavily forged steel with often higher carbon content which yields the dark, even stain despite being laminated).

Your badik could well be from northern Malaya (not sure though).

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

if the blade was made with such besi with higher carbon contain, does it mean it can easily break? I've read somewhere stated that besi melela was actually comes from a sandy grains along the west coast of java. Is that true?

if not laminated, means that it was not done like how a keris should be?

Thanks for the input, kai. Really appreciate it... :)

kai

5th February 2013, 11:33 AM

Hello Moshah,

if the blade was made with such besi with higher carbon contain, does it mean it can easily break?
I wouldn't worry (unless one tries to abuse it as a sharpened pry bar); competent differential hardening can go a long way. If used incorrectly, the weak point (for most of the personal sidearms throughout the archipelago) would most likely be the hilt IMVHO.

I've read somewhere stated that besi melela was actually comes from a sandy grains along the west coast of java. Is that true?
I'm sure there were a lot of local sources; secondary iron deposits are not rare in wet climates.

if not laminated, means that it was not done like how a keris should be?
These are laminated (on a microscopic level) and traditional. There may be some blades made from imported European steel hiding within the wesi/besi malela category but usually you will see some forging lines suggesting extensive local forge work regardless of the primary source.

Regards,
Kai

Moshah

5th February 2013, 02:18 PM

Thanks for the elaborated explanation Kai...

Hmm I'm really critical on this one as most badik I've seen were pamorred, at least slight pamor. This one was plain baja, but somehow the mid part looks like it was fullered, which is something i've never seen on a badik.

But then my biggest worry would be another kind of dagger / edged weapon "impersonated" to look like a badik... :shrug:

CharlesS

5th February 2013, 04:06 PM

In Sajen's example, does anyone else see the possibility of a cut down pedang blade finding, perhaps, a second life as a badik?

Sajen

5th February 2013, 06:10 PM

In Sajen's example, does anyone else see the possibility of a cut down pedang blade finding, perhaps, a second life as a badik?

It's maybe possible but I don't think so. Soon as I have better light I will post some pictures from the blade.

Moshah

5th February 2013, 06:31 PM

Sajen

5th February 2013, 06:54 PM

I think it is quite unlikely Detlef's was a cut down pedang, as the fuller length would not make any sense, to be that short a fuller for a longer blade.

Definitely there were traces of pamor as well, on detlef's badik.

Agree with you Moshah regarding the fuller.

The blade have a very fine pamor, unfortunately it's very dark etched so it's difficult to see.

kai

6th February 2013, 08:46 AM

Hello Moshah,

I'm really critical on this one as most badik I've seen were pamorred, at least slight pamor. This one was plain baja, but somehow the mid part looks like it was fullered, which is something i've never seen on a badik.

But then my biggest worry would be another kind of dagger / edged weapon "impersonated" to look like a badik... :shrug:
Don't worry - this seems to be a rare and genuine variant: I have another one and with at least 3 extant examples this makes a pattern (rather than a headache ;) ). If the N Malay attribution can be confirmed, this might be a local style. As already suggested, it clearly shows heavy Bugis influence. However, the blade is always broad, flat with a wide and shallow central fuller, has a partial edge at the back of the blade, and is made from besi malela. The blade has enough strength for stabbing as well as cutting and is very quick/agile due to its low weight. I believe the stronger material makes this configuration feasible. It's well possible that the looks of European sabres influenced the blade profile; however, all 3 pieces seem to be locally crafted on purpose, not recycled from broken swords.

The typical Bugis badik from Sulawesi tends to have either a relatively narrow blade optimized for stabbing or a blade with fat belly adding more meat towards the tip for slashing moves. Both types tend to have a fairly thick back of the blade (as usual for most SE Asian daggers). I have seen several with partial back edge like in Detlef's example though. Some appear to be recycled pedang/etc. blades but quite a few are obviously intentional designs like already pointed out for Detlef's badik.

Moshah, could you please post a pic of its scabbard? I'll try to come up with pics of mine, too.

Regards,
Kai

kai

6th February 2013, 09:06 AM

Hello Moshah,

The characteristic of the besi was also akin to some Malay kerises that I have, made me so inclined to say it's a Malay badik. But from my understanding, Malay badiks usually will have a "mar" or "temin" - a round base before the tang <snip>
I'd be inclined to place those pieces with integral bolster into the large sewar/sewaih family (including tumbok lada, karih, etc.). This family of blades seems to have Sumatran/Straits roots rather than the badik probably originating from S Sulawesi.

As you know, not that long ago, people used to freely move back and forth between Sumatra and W Malaysia.

Regards,
Kai

Moshah

6th February 2013, 01:44 PM

If the N Malay attribution can be confirmed, this might be a local style. As already suggested, it clearly shows heavy Bugis influence. However, the blade is always broad, flat with a wide and shallow central fuller, has a partial edge at the back of the blade, and is made from besi malela. The blade has enough strength for stabbing as well as cutting and is very quick/agile due to its low weight. I believe the stronger material makes this configuration feasible. It's well possible that the looks of European sabres influenced the blade profile; however, all 3 pieces seem to be locally crafted on purpose, not recycled from broken swords.

Moshah, could you please post a pic of its scabbard? I'll try to come up with pics of mine, too.

Dear Kai,

Of course we still could not confirm the origin of the blade, as much as I would really love to have it labelled "made in N.Malayan" as that would explain much on the absence of pamor material.

The dress (pix attached) were bona-fide Bugis. Albeit being newly made (which would lessen the inclination of possibility that it comes from there), the overall image has the Bugis look into them, and so does the blade. If it was a conformed Bugis' badik, I think it is quite "obscene" for it not to have any pamor. Perhaps, made for the peasant...

Of course, I am speaking with my limited knowledge in Badik, Bugis arms and socioculture, and limited experience too...:(

kai

7th February 2013, 07:43 AM

Hello Moshah,

Of course we still could not confirm the origin of the blade, as much as I would really love to have it labelled "made in N.Malayan" as that would explain much on the absence of pamor material.
Can't you get back to the seller and try to inquire? Also where the scabbard was made (and possibly wether the replacement was done based on an existing but broken one coming with the badik)? Does the hilt look older?

The dress (pix attached) were bona-fide Bugis. Albeit being newly made (which would lessen the inclination of possibility that it comes from there), the overall image has the Bugis look into them, and so does the blade.
I don't think we can base assumptions on any newly made scabbard. Minor sidenote: the wood of the stem looks N Malay to me FWIW...

If it was a conformed Bugis' badik, I think it is quite "obscene" for it not to have any pamor. Perhaps, made for the peasant...
Considering that the badik took the place of the keris as personal companion or alter ego in Bugis society, one would believe that there should be a good reason (i. e. adat & hormat) for anything relating to a badik. Hopefully, our few Bugis members could elaborate on the presence of wesi malela in S Sulawesi and what it might signify?

The scabbard on the example sold by Artzi is definitely not Sulawesi nor is mine; its ivory buntut also doesn't suggest that this piece was just a low-end version. The hilt on my piece does show the "multicolored" wood typically favored by N Malays, too.

Regards,
Kai

Moshah

7th February 2013, 03:44 PM

Can't you get back to the seller and try to inquire? Also where the scabbard was made (and possibly wether the replacement was done based on an existing but broken one coming with the badik)? Does the hilt look older?
I always be extra careful on whatever the local seller will tell me. Not that I am so skeptical about them, but most of the time you either get a purported fairytale or misleading info. In this case, I do not think the seller would have much to say about it. However I think the scabbard and hilt would be a local commissioned, and look new even to untrained eyes.

I don't think we can base assumptions on any newly made scabbard.
Definitely, Kai, even with antique scabbard a closer look on the fitment is essential before one can say it's a real package. Many people travel around the globe and mix-marriage wherever they settled down, and I believe that also would happen to sheathed weapons of the old days... :D

The scabbard on the example sold by Artzi is definitely not Sulawesi nor is mine; its ivory buntut also doesn't suggest that this piece was just a low-end version. The hilt on my piece does show the "multicolored" wood typically favored by N Malays, too.
Really? I thought the scabbard and hilt of the one sold by Artzi was a Bugis one...However Artzi's example was the closest to my badik's design @ dhapur, and I would love to know from where it comes from...

BTW, would love to see your badik as well, Kai.. :)

Moshah

10th February 2013, 05:08 PM

Hi guys,

Received it today, safely.

I would say the hilt and sheath looks decently new - not a slight of dark, blackish hue that usually takes place on antique hilts. Unless it was clean thoroughly, I stand to be corrected. On the other hand, they were made out of nice wood plot and of a considerable good workmanship, it seems.

Apparently the shallow fuller can be clearly seen, as the slight concave runs from the first inch of the base, straight (and tapered) to the tip. The partial double-edge started a little bit further from the mid blade towards the tip.

The blade was really smooth to the touch. As I ran my finger along the blade from the base towards the tip through the mid-section, the feel was almost velvety. I know some Malay keris with this same attributes and it is locally coined as "besi baldu" - means velvety iron. Perhaps the absence of pamor contributes to this feel but I do have few non-pamorred kerises, and it feel nothing like this. Except one, old Sumatran / Palembang sepokal which shares this sensation of touch...

Kai, I've tried to ask the seller from where it comes from but as I've predicted - to no avail.

So guys, is the blade a Bugis, a Malay or perhaps a Sumatran?

Moshah

12th February 2013, 03:17 PM

We're still in the grey, are we?

BTW Kai, does this badik resembles that one of yours?

DAHenkel

14th February 2013, 10:17 AM

This is also a Peninsular piece which in Kelantan is usually called a "badik Bugis" ie. Bugis style, to distinguish it from the more typical Malay badik which have the mar.

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

Also, the piece in post #3 now belongs to me. Such double edged blades are almost certainly a European influence adopted from Western military style blades.

Moshah

14th February 2013, 04:45 PM

Hi Dave,

This is also a Peninsular piece which in Kelantan is usually called a "badik Bugis" ie. Bugis style, to distinguish it from the more typical Malay badik which have the mar.

Seeing one without pamor make me think it is a Malayan all right, but with limited knowledge I can't bring myself to jump into conclusion in the very beginning. Some more I failed to see (google..sic..) a Bugis badik without a pamor, which adds to the skepticism. But when the item reached my hand, I think the quality of the besi baja would justify the absence of pamor, and the fuller started one inch after the base of the hilt, not right through (which would indicate a pedang reborned in its second life as a badik). So then I believe it is all right a badik.

Then your input and Kai's make me believe now that it is a Kelantanese / N.Malayan. Good lord!

I've heard that Kelantanese refers to these kind as "bodek" or "pisau bugis"...and the one with the "mar" was a "badik". Since Kelantan and Pattani generally have their own keris and weaponology culture that is unique to itself, I think their badik is their badik and that's that. But definitely the similarities to the sewar's family was there, indeed.

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

I am afraid that I do not have the picture of the scabbard, as this badik was not mine....:shrug:
However I know the owner and would be happy to tell you who is it, if you really want to know. He's quite a figure in the Kelantan keris scene...

Also, the piece in post #3 now belongs to me. Such double edged blades are almost certainly a European influence adopted from Western military style blades.

OMG there's come the trouble :eek: Well, sorry but I have credited Artzi for it beforehand, because I don't know of the nice badik's whereabout already... :)

For a Peninsular piece, we hardly get to see any of the likes around so much. Not even here in Malaysia. Were the Kelantanese of the old days are more keen on the badiks with the "mar" type (i.e badik sepat etc) so that they did not make much of badiks with the design like yours and mine?

Moshah

14th February 2013, 11:10 PM

...(when) the fuller started one inch after the base of the hilt, not right through (which would indicate a pedang reborned in its second life as a badik).

This is what I meant. The first box from left indicates the fuller starts, and the second box was the start of the partial edge, and the fuller still continues till half an inch before the tip.

Moshah

15th February 2013, 08:32 PM

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

..anyway the scabbard for that badik would look like this example, as I recollected. Is this a typical Kelantanese badik sheath?

I guess the badik here is Kelantanese as well, with a mysterious kuningan that looks like a mixture of swassa in the pamor. But I though swassa or any other alloy couldn't mix up with the besi baja, so I really don't know what it is...

T. Koch

16th February 2013, 09:45 AM

That's some great looking horn on that last one Moshah, especially the color of the hilt. :)

Cheers, - Thor

Moshah

16th February 2013, 11:19 AM

Thanks, Thor...but I believe it ain't a horn.

It is a sea ivory. See the dotted line on the pix below. Over here in Malaysia, I think it is not a common material for badik hilt. That's an observation, based on what I've seen, but still I haven't see a lot of things...

And it's aged well...ah, the sin of the heart... :)

Sajen

17th February 2013, 03:25 PM

Beautiful badik! :) And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

T. Koch

17th February 2013, 07:20 PM

Interesting. When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to? I am not familiar with any marine ivory both displaying lamellar growth like that, and at the same time showing cracks along the axis shown above. Then again, there's probably a lot of sea mammals whose teeth I haven't seen myself - especially tropical ones.

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do. :D

Sweet looking badik regardless!

All the best, - Thor

Sajen

17th February 2013, 07:59 PM

Hello Thor, you know what I would say!? :) ;) :D

T. Koch

17th February 2013, 08:10 PM

Hahaha, I do, I do - but hear me out bro! :D If you look at the dots going across the bottom of the hilt, I just can't see any way that you can align this row with the TIZ running lengthwise along the inside of the tusk? Unless the above hilt is only like 3 - 4 cm long, the direction doesn't fit.

It's totally different from the badik hilt you posted recently. In yours the hilt aligns up nicely with the curve of a hippopotamus tusk and also remember - I agreed with you on that one! ;) :D

Sajen

17th February 2013, 10:42 PM

Maybe Moshah can enlighten us? What he think it is? And how long is the hilt?

Moshah

18th February 2013, 01:41 AM

When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to?
The real problem over here is that people are referring to sea ivory as "gigi" (i.e tooth), hence the better understanding and futher classification of sea ivory was somewhat fall short, because of the generalization of terming that has become a common practice around...

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?
The "dots in a row" was my ultimate indicator of a sea ivory, but again I am not so sure on rhino or hippo horns. The hilt was not big, about 5.8cm long...

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.
Blonde horn? You mean, hippo?
Attached were a series of pictures, where I believe would assist you in the further effort of it's ID. In the first pix I've highlighted the dots on the bottom and on the surface of the hilt, for easier identification.

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do. :D
Don't be, Thor, as what you do is something that I would like to do as well!
:)

Moshah

18th February 2013, 01:43 AM

Beautiful badik! :) And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks, Detlef.

Perhaps I would own as good & as much as yours, one day... :D

T. Koch

18th February 2013, 06:44 AM

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...
That would mean that the hollow canal along the tusk core has been completely crushed by the dentine and now totally reduced to these little pin-prick impurities (spots in a row) we see. That's something I've never seen before, but then again freak incidents happen all the time in nature. -perhaps it happens once a hippo grows old enough, as the dentine layers keep packing on...?

Would be interesting to see a series of tusk cross sections lined up according to the age of the source animal.

Mosha, don't worry about what people call it. I deal with it on a regular basis too. Common people rarely know the exact scientific names of what they have. Unfortunately popular names are the scourge of useful investigation. :)

In regards to your question. Horn is for instance what cattle, antilopes and rhinoceros grow. They are composed of keratin - the same materials that make up hair, claws and nails.

Teeth are made up of dentine and enamel. The males (in most cases) of certain species of animals grow a particular set of large teeth made for combat - actual or ritual/demonstration - to determine their position in the group and predator deterrence (same thing as the above animals use their horn for). For example Elephant, narwhal and hippo. These particular teeth we call tusks.

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious! :)

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!

All the best, - Thor

T. Koch

18th February 2013, 06:45 AM

Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two! ;) :D

...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime! :p

Sajen

18th February 2013, 04:30 PM

Oh yeah, and Detlef - that makes two! ;) :D

...when we get to three I'll bake you a cake when we meet sometime! :p

Thank's! :D

Sajen

18th February 2013, 04:38 PM

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious! :)

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!

Agree with you, the colour is beautiful. Maybe is was dyed originally but I think it's also with a very good age. :)

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah

19th February 2013, 12:11 PM

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...

Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious! :)

Well I've heard about this practice too. But did it not that tea dyeing would usually turns up with a straight brownish hue on any surface the dipping takes place? Or if the whole hilt was totally submerged, you will get an even dyed tone, all over the hilt?

I think the badik hilt in question here has turned brownish / golden on the area where the finger or palm would be placed. Noted the uneven slight yellowish that appears on some spot, vertically.

I has one keris hilt with a suspected tea-dyeing treatment, where a straight line of golden tone was present, as if the hilt was partially submerged, heads up. Will post the pix later.

Thanks Thor for enlighten me up in this segment...it is not easy to pick up and tell this-and-that ivory on the go, but with your knowledge and input I think we should be able to do that soon :D

T. Koch

19th February 2013, 04:07 PM

Hi Thor. Is the TIZ only appears on hippo tusk? If it was unique to hippo ivory alone, I think that was one easy determinant, providing that the hilt exposed good side of the cross-sectional plane. On kerises hilt, that could be tricky...

Hi Mosha! Here it is the combination of the visible laminar build-up of dentine in combination with the dots in an angled row. These two combinations lead me to believe that we are dealing with hippo ivory. I will never give a statement in certainty about these things, unless I have the piece in hand. I generally advise anybody being cautious when performing an identification and never to do it based on a sole character trait alone. I've personally seen other ivory species which show either similar dots or similar laminations. With the two characters being present here together, i.e. the laminations and the dots, my belief is strong that it is indeed hippo ivory.

I asked a colleague today btw, if he knew whether hippo tusks grow continually through the life of the animal and even though he wasn't sure, he pointed out a supporting fact that I hadn't considered: When the hippopotamus closes it mouth, the apical surface of the tusks in the lower jaw grind against those of the tusks in the upper jaw, perpetually wearing down the tusks from the distal end. This taken into consideration, it would make highly sense for the tusks to keep on growing and renewing throughout the life of the animal.

I found a picture of a hippo skull where you can maybe get an idea of the tusks grinding against eachother:

T. Koch

19th February 2013, 04:18 PM

Here is the standard reference picture for a hippo tusk in cross section. Normally you would see a straight line of dots appearing in an ivory piece that has been cut from lengthwise down along the left and right borders of the TIZ.

If hippo tusks indeed grow throughout the life of the animal, my guess is that your piece came from an old hippo where the continuous addition of the lamellar dentine layers over time has completely "crushed" the TIZ and reduced it to the series of dots we see from the pommel end. Notice how the angle of dots in your hilt approximately fits with the shape of the TIZ? The picture also clearly shows the laminations.

It could also just be a freak - a deviation from the norm, where an animal has been born without a prominent TIZ. I don't know - but now I'm certainly dead curious to find out! :D

Regarding the tea staining, I'm sorry but can't answer you. I don't know anything about it but would love to learn more! Where was it done, how exactly, how culturally widespread, since when, etc. I just know I like the color. :)

All the best, - Thor

Moshah

20th February 2013, 10:41 AM

...Normally you would see a straight line of dots appearing in an ivory piece that has been cut from lengthwise down along the left and right borders of the TIZ.
If hippo tusks indeed grow throughout the life of the animal, my guess is that your piece came from an old hippo where the continuous addition of the lamellar dentine layers over time has completely "crushed" the TIZ and reduced it to the series of dots we see from the pommel end. Notice how the angle of dots in your hilt approximately fits with the shape of the TIZ? The picture also clearly shows the laminations.

Well Thor I think that when you compared the TIZ pix with the badik's hilt, definitely you've got it right.

However some of my kerises hilts were also producing the similar tiny dots over the TIz. Then would it be a hippo tusks as well? Generally it was touted as "sea ivory" over here, and the main indicator is the tiny dots along the TIZ, if that was ever the TIZ.

Was marine ivory (walrus, sperm whale etc) doesn't have TIZ?

Moshah

20th February 2013, 10:57 AM

I'm sorry. The pix attachment seems to get haywire a little bit but I've already arrange it in order during the posting process... :shrug:

It is basically three hilts, with hilt # (b) supposedly closed up on the tiny dots on the TIZ...

DAHenkel

22nd February 2013, 12:38 AM

This discussion has taken an interesting tangent...

I'm no expert by any means but I did want to raise one other alternate theory. I have seen unworked "gigi" in Kelantan and Pattani and it doesn't resemble at all the hippo ivory I've seen. Rather it was represented to me as walrus tusk (gigi singa laut). Based on this experience I've always believed that gigi = walrus ivory.

Comparatively, you see a lot of "gigi" in Pattani, Kelantan and Terengganu. There must have been a reliable and fairly abundant source, but the Malay world's ties with tropical Africa were pretty distant. That's not to say that some hippo ivory didn't make it there but it is very rare IMO, having as it must to travel through the traditional trading route along the African and Iranian coast, through India and then only making the jump to Sumatra, Kedah then overland (or later, through Singapore). I've only seen one hilt in Kelantan that I'm fairly confident is hippo...this is based on comparison with photos of Persian khanjar hilts I've seen.

However with the walrus hypothesis you may have a source for the material. Its been reported that in the 18th and 19th centuries, American whalers sometimes wintered by sailing a loop down into the S. China Sea, following the coast of Vietnam and the Malay Peninsula before turning back east along the N. Borneo coast. They brought with them mostly whale bone and hippo ivory to trade for supplies and probably some exotics to bring home (some to the Peabody Essex apparently ;) ) . Popular tradition in Kelantan is that the gigi was bought from American sailors.

Anyway, perhaps someone with more expertise on the material side can do some digging and see if they can find comparisons to walrus ivory?

Also, as an aside...another sea mammal here in Southeast Asia worth looking at is the dugong or sea cow. I was told by the carvers though that dugong ivory is too small to make proper "hulu gigi". Also, dugong are very rare, shy creatures which doesn't jibe with the huge supply needed to make all those gigi hilts. I've seen some badik hilts that were said to be dugong though.

kai

22nd February 2013, 08:52 AM

Hello Dave,

I have seen unworked "gigi" in Kelantan and Pattani and it doesn't resemble at all the hippo ivory I've seen. Rather it was represented to me as walrus tusk (gigi singa laut). Based on this experience I've always believed that gigi = walrus ivory.
You don't happen to have a pic of those unworked tusks, have you?

I've only seen one hilt in Kelantan that I'm fairly confident is hippo...this is based on comparison with photos of Persian khanjar hilts I've seen.
This contrasts with my experience: I see quite a few Malay and Sumatran keris hilts made from what I and Detlef (and possibly also Thor ;) ) would tentatively assign to being of hippo origin while walrus seems to be quite rare; in Ottoman, Persian and Indian hilts walrus is much more common.

Walrus tusks have a prominent inner core that exhibits a distinct mottled pattern upon staining or developing patina.

Its been reported that in the 18th and 19th centuries, American whalers sometimes wintered by sailing a loop down into the S. China Sea, following the coast of Vietnam and the Malay Peninsula before turning back east along the N. Borneo coast.
They brought with them mostly whale bone and hippo ivory
I assume you mean whale and walrus (rather than hippo)?

Are spermwhale tooth also mentioned in those accounts? While these are usually too small for carving the fairly large N Malay keris hilts, they may be the main source for those pieces that are locally identified as dugong.

Regards,
Kai

Moshah

22nd February 2013, 09:42 AM

Also, as an aside...another sea mammal here in Southeast Asia worth looking at is the dugong or sea cow. I was told by the carvers though that dugong ivory is too small to make proper "hulu gigi". Also, dugong are very rare, shy creatures which doesn't jibe with the huge supply needed to make all those gigi hilts. I've seen some badik hilts that were said to be dugong though.

Yeah I still remember back in the 90s where a fisherman from Johore accidentally caught a dugong and the news went national. It got so many mass media coverage and many people came down to see it by themselves. There were also a struggle between the wildlife bodies and the founder on the right of keeping this very endangered mammal, before it sadly die...

Of course the poor dugong mentioned above was rather small, but perhaps the dugongs / sea cows of those days were fairly big as to provide enough sources for those massive pekaka hilts?

It happen to the tigers and lions too, whereas now you could hardly see them raised up as big a size as their predecessors...

kai

22nd February 2013, 10:10 AM

Hello Moshah,

Of course the poor dugong mentioned above was rather small, but perhaps the dugongs / sea cows of those days were fairly big as to provide enough sources for those massive pekaka hilts?
No, a hulu pekaka from dugong is just not possible - only small hilts could be made from it and I'd really love to see a well-documented example!

Have a look at this recent thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16290) and another one discussing dugong (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14014).

Regards,
Kai

T. Koch

22nd February 2013, 04:26 PM

Hi Mosha,

Wow, thanks for the extra pictures! My estimate in all three cases is hippopotamus - again due to the presence of both these concentric laminations as well as the angular dots. - In no. 2 of the interstitial cavity is even visible (still there?) - cool! :) The hilts are very beautiful - if you ever think of selling no. 1 - let me know. ;)

Sperm whale (Physeter macrocephalus) teeth don't have a central cavity like a TIZ but do have concentric laminations. These are formed tighter together than those of hippo however, and the ivory itself is very hard and dense. I enclose a couple of pictures I've taken from the collection of Copenhagen Zoological Museum. The first is of an average sperm whale tooth: about 12-15 cm long and 100 - 150 g. Notice that the overall shape would fit quite well with some keris hilts, although I've never had a confirmed specimen in hand myself. As I recently showed in a thread on Sikin panjang the teeth can grow much bigger: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpost.php?p=152680&postcount=15

The second picture is of a sperm whale tooth split longitudinally and then treated with acid, so as to better display the laminations. Notice how little space the pulp cavity actually takes up. This is where the nerves and vascular system connects with the tooth.

Note also, that many other whales have teeth. Most of them are however, in spite of the whales themselves growing rather large, only a couple of cm., but there are other species like the killer whale Orcinus orca, which also produce teeth of a significant size.

I've found this article which describes the presence of 29(!) different species of whales in Indonesian waters: http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/149116

The six species from Balaenopteridae are irrelevant to us, as they grow baleen and not teeth. Of the other mentioned species, I know only that the killer- and sperm whales grow teeth so large, that they could be considered useful in our context - the rest I am unsure about. Would be very interesting to find out.

Interestingly the article also describes the presence of whaling in Indonesian history as well as the contemporary level of hunting that has been performed on the species. It mentions that 612 sperm whales where taken from 1959 - 1994 from Lembata Island only - so the source for sperm whale ivory certainly seems to have been there.

Regarding walrus tusks, please see my next reply below.

Best wishes, - Thor

T. Koch

22nd February 2013, 05:56 PM

Hi DAHenkel,

I completely share your skepticism regarding the use of hippopotamus ivory in SEA, especially considering how relatively common they seem to be among ivory hilts. I have no idea... I am just relating to the morphology of the ivory itself and given the characteristics displayed, there are just not really any local options. I too find it absolutely mind-boggling that this trade wouldn't have been described in the literature somewhere.

Regarding walrus tusk as a possible source, it is true when kai speaks about the characteristics of the inner core composed of osteodentine. It looks a bit like boiled rice. However, walrus tusks on old bulls grow really large and the diameter huge. -I've seen ones where the thickness of the layers surrounding the core was easily 5 - 7 cm. Also, the core does not extend to the tip. If walrus tusk is carved in such a way that the piece contains no core, we lose this identifying character.

Please see attachment for the standard walrus tusk cross-section photo.

The layers around the core consists mainly of dentine and a - sometimes rather thick - surrounding layer of cementum. Because of the way they are deposited, these can show a laminar structure in cross section, similar to that of the hippo. With age, these layers will tend to crack lengthwise down the tusk and radially in cross-section (as seen in the photo) I've sometimes, although on very few occasions, seen these cracks overgrow again and form small inclusions along them giving the appearance of "dots in a row". However, because of the structure of the walrus tusk, these dots will lie on a straight line as opposed to in an angle and they will appear perpendicular to the concentric laminations, as opposed to wedged in between them, as is apparent in Mosha's hilts above.

I am not disregarding walrus as a possible source for keris hilts - compared to most of you guys I've seen very few hilts in my life. I just don't believe it is the source material in the examples presented above.

All the best, - Thor

Sajen

23rd February 2013, 03:53 PM

Walrus tusks have a prominent inner core that exhibits a distinct mottled pattern upon staining or developing patina.

Agree with Kai and Thor, to my opinion the shown keris hilts are from hippo ivory.

Walrus ivory is like Kai described, here three pictures from walrus ivory taken from other threads. I have seen only very few keris hilts worked from walrus ivory.

Regards,

Detlef

Moshah

26th February 2013, 12:18 PM

Moshah

26th February 2013, 12:21 PM

Walrus ivory is like Kai described, here three pictures from walrus ivory taken from other threads. I have seen only very few keris hilts worked from walrus ivory.

Thanks for the pix, Detlef.

BTW, do you have the suspected walrus ivory keris hilt's pix? Did it bear resemblances as the material of those hilts you've just posted?

Thanks.
Moshah

Moshah

26th February 2013, 12:26 PM

Hello Moshah,

No, a hulu pekaka from dugong is just not possible - only small hilts could be made from it and I'd really love to see a well-documented example!

Have a look at this recent thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16290) and another one discussing dugong (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14014).

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for the link, Kai.

BTW attached were extra pix of hilt # 3, the full built and close up.

I don't know what happen but it looks like he's having a bad measles there
:) - something I haven't see on my other gigi hilts. Perhaps a different kind of tusk / ivory, as I don't think this measle-thingy can be called patinated, isn't it?

Regards,
Moshah

T. Koch

26th February 2013, 03:58 PM

Hi Mosha,

I'm not sure, but would think it could be because the nose is carved from the outer layer of cementum It also makes sense as it seems to be the most extreme part of the little guy. The transparency of the nose is what makes him so cute! :)

The "mis"-colored one in the bottom pic is the same material as the others, IMO. Sometimes ivory just ages more beautifully than in other cases. It's the same if you look at the walrus hilts above - some become golden and lustrous with time while others become grey and 'dirty' looking. I guess it depends on what kind of life the material has had and which kind of environment it's been stored in.
For this reason I in some cases personally find pieces of antler or bone more attractive than some pieces of ivory. I really love a warm and golden color and the aesthetic expression is more important to me in a piece, than the type of material.

I've found a new pekaka hilt in walrus ivory for you, but the photo is from a dealers page, so I'll send you the link in a pm.

We're not allowed to publically post pictures of stuff for sale, even if we don't reveal the source of the photo ...right?

Take care, - Thor

Sajen

26th February 2013, 07:16 PM

Thanks for the pix, Detlef.

BTW, do you have the suspected walrus ivory keris hilt's pix? Did it bear resemblances as the material of those hilts you've just posted?

Thanks.
Moshah

I think a friend of mine has a bugis hilt made from walrus ivory, I will look if he can send me a picture from this hilt. And yes, it look very similar to the posted hilts from this material.

Sajen

26th February 2013, 07:19 PM

Hello Moshah,

No, a hulu pekaka from dugong is just not possible - only small hilts could be made from it and I'd really love to see a well-documented example!

Have a look at this recent thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16290) and another one discussing dugong (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14014).

Regards,
Kai

I think I know one example from this material, a small jawa deman from Sumatra. Will look if i can manage to post a picture.

Regards,

Detlef

kai

26th February 2013, 09:11 PM

Thanks, Detlef, that would be great to see both hilts here!

Regards,
Kai

kai

26th February 2013, 09:13 PM

Hello Thor,

We're not allowed to publically post pictures of stuff for sale, even if we don't reveal the source of the photo ...right?
Yup, stuff for sale is a no-no...

Regards,
Kai

kai

26th February 2013, 10:33 PM

Thanks for the extra pics, Moshah!

Perhaps a different kind of tusk / ivory, as I don't think this measle-thingy can be called patinated, isn't it?
I'd love to examine #3 in person: I also believe it is hippo but I can't ascertain from the pics wether the mottled appearance is from uneven staining/corrosion/patina or due to some other cause.

From the pics, the tip of the beak almost looks like a repair while the rest of the TIZ is obviously fine despite the unusual choice of placing it that close to the edge of the piece - looks like the carver was hoping to avoid including it but ran out of material...

Regards,
Kai

Moshah

28th February 2013, 12:51 PM

I'd love to examine #3 in person: I also believe it is hippo but I can't ascertain from the pics wether the mottled appearance is from uneven staining/corrosion/patina or due to some other cause.

You're most welcome when you are around here! Surely we can discuss more about these hilts and many other things... :)

From the pics, the tip of the beak almost looks like a repair while the rest of the TIZ is obviously fine despite the unusual choice of placing it that close to the edge of the piece - looks like the carver was hoping to avoid including it but ran out of material...

That was a spot-on; it is indeed a repair. The tip was an ivory piece glued to the beak.

Since this material was dearly prized back then, I believe the carver's intention was to make the most from the chunk of material he got. Rightfully they were skilled artisan as well, as they wouldn't rush the process for $$$, unlike these days.

Regards,
Moshah

Sajen

28th February 2013, 07:06 PM

Thanks for the pix, Detlef.

BTW, do you have the suspected walrus ivory keris hilt's pix? Did it bear resemblances as the material of those hilts you've just posted?

Thanks.
Moshah

Here the pictures of the Bugis hilt as well a free cross-section through a walrus tooth.

Sajen

28th February 2013, 07:18 PM

I think I know one example from this material, a small jawa deman from Sumatra. Will look if i can manage to post a picture.

And here the picture from the dugong ivory hilt. Carved from a tusk those who can reach a length from 20 until 25 cm. The ivory look similar like elephant ivory but have a concentric structure and by this you can recognize dugong ivory.

Regards,

Detlef

kai

28th February 2013, 09:24 PM

Here the pictures of the Bugis hilt as well a free cross-section through a walrus tooth.
Thanks, Detlef - a really nice example!

Regards,
Kai

kai

28th February 2013, 09:33 PM

And here the picture from the dugong ivory hilt. Carved from a tusk those who can reach a length from 20 until 25 cm. The ivory look similar like elephant ivory but have a concentric structure and by this you can recognize dugong ivory.
Thanks a lot, Detlef!

I'm not completely convinced of the identification though: a concentric structure per se doesn't seem to be enough to narrow down on dugong IMVHO; these can be found in ivory of different origin (including spermwhale and relatives). However, the somewhat angular core as well as the longish inner line may be a better character allowing a positive identification.

Thor, have you some pics of cross-sections from dugong tusks?

Regards,
Kai

kai

28th February 2013, 09:39 PM

You're most welcome when you are around here! Surely we can discuss more about these hilts and many other things... :)
Thanks, Moshah! I do indeed hope that we'll be able to meet and mull over our collections sometime in the future...

Regards,
Kai

T. Koch

1st March 2013, 03:45 AM

Hi kai,

No, unfortunately I haven't been able to photograph any cuts from dugong ivory. I have however, recently for the first time seen dugong teeth in person and to my great surprise they are solid with almost no central cavity - not hollow as I thought a lot of available photos seem to show.

This has somewhat altered my opinion of what can - and can't be - cut from dugong teeth. I have taken photos of the teeth in situ and will upload them when I have a chance to dig them out of my archive at work.

Regarding the ID based on laminations alone, I agree a 110% with you kai, that it's not a sufficient character alone.

Detlef, until I have actually seen dugong ivory in some cut sections, my best guess would be that the hilt you show is carved from hippo incisor. It fits the concentric layers with the central dot as well as the general outline - see standard reference picture attached. If they exported the tusk to SEA , then surely it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume, that the incisors went the same route?

- beautiful hilt btw! :)

All the best, - Thor