GUNONG on EBAY

[David]

This recently ended on eBay. The seller makes no claim of age and IDs the sheath and pommel material as buffalo bone. The metal fittings are not identified.
I am of the mind that in spite of the high craft and vintage look, that this is a relatively new gunong. This seller also sells a lot Moro kris which also have a vintage/antique look, but which i also suspect are coming out of a modern workshop. Do other agree with this assessment?
I do NOT want to name this seller (nor should others here) and this is not intended as an accusation of dishonesty. As i stated, he never presents his blades as antique even if they seem to have intentionally been given that appearance. But i am curious if anyone is familiar with modern workshops in the Philippines doing this type of work. Some time ago someone on this forum posted a large series of photos shot at a modern workshop in the Philippines doing high end work, but i have had no luck finding it in the archives.

[Battara]

Wish I could answer you David. It looks modern (and thus I passed on it) with carabao bone, not horn. Some of the piercing work seems to me to be done much later, although this chasing work is good. Also I usually see bone scabbards like this on newer ones.

As far as the metals are concerned, it looks like copper and either nickel-silver or silver plated copper (also very common). Of course the only way to know for sure is to test the metal........

[David]

Just to be clear Jose, i did not purchase this gunong. Just curious because i see all these "quality" Moro blades coming from this one seller all the time so he must be hooked up with somebody's workshop over there. :shrug:
I agree on the copper and "silver" could well be German silver (which actually has no silver at all). I would think that if it were real silver it would have been in the description as a selling point. :shrug:

[Lew]

Definately modern but nice. :shrug:

[Rick]

The bone has been stained to look old; note the small patches visible on the 'silver' collar at the throat of the scabbard .

[David]

The bone has been stained to look old; note the small patches visible on the 'silver' collar at the throat of the scabbard .
Yeah, i noticed that...you would think that with all the craftsmanship applied here they would have thought to stain the bone before assembly.:shrug:

[Battara]

Just to be clear Jose, i did not purchase this gunong. Just curious because i see all these "quality" Moro blades coming from this one seller all the time so he must be hooked up with somebody's workshop over there. :shrug:
Oh........right........I misunderstood. :o

I am thinking nickel-silver (right - no silver content) because of the color of the metal.

And Rick, a good point - I missed the white unstained areas. I wonder if the craftsman finished it and then the dealer stained it later...... :rolleyes:

Still nice metal work.

[David]

Yes, i think there is no arguing that there is nice craftsmanship at work here which is the opposite of most modern made Moro weapons entering the market today. Goes to show that these skills have not been lost.

[Spunjer]

yeah, recent. it's an industry in Lanao del sur, specifically Tugaya. lots of these can be found in Davao and Ermita, the new antique district in Manila. here are some pics of locals in action:

http://www.pbase.com/timonera/tugaya&page=all

[David]

Thanks for that link Ron. It's exactly what i was looking for. :)

[Spunjer]

.

[Battara]

Great pictures. Also explains the ivory hilts on these new pieces.

No offense, but I do find it disturbing that they have acquired illegal ivory from recently killed elephants.......... :(

[Gavin Nugent]

No offense, but I do find it disturbing that they have acquired illegal ivory from recently killed elephants.......... :(

Don't dispair so easily, the ivory could have come from trimming of tusks and other avenues.

[David]

Don't dispair so easily, the ivory could have come from trimming of tusks and other avenues.
Gav, at least one of the images in the gallery Ron linked shows an ivory tusk in the foreground, so not trimmings.
Pretty sure the gunong that i originally posted is indeed bone, not ivory, but photos are difficult to figure with that ID at times, especially after the material has been processed and stained to give an antique effect. :shrug:

[Nathaniel]

Great pictures. Also explains the ivory hilts on these new pieces.

No offense, but I do find it disturbing that they have acquired illegal ivory from recently killed elephants.......... :(

Speaking of which that just reminded me that in this last October 2012 there was a good article written up in National Geographic called Blood Ivory, which detailed that current status of the illegal ivory trade. China, Thailand and the Philippines where highlighted as major consumers of ivory. Here is the article. If you get a chance take a look at the actual magazine as there are some more graphs and photos.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/10/ivory/christy-text

[Nathaniel]

And a similar article was published in March 2012 in the National Geographic called Rhino Wars

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/03/rhino-wars/gwin-text

[Gavin Nugent]

Gav, at least one of the images in the gallery Ron linked shows an ivory tusk in the foreground, so not trimmings.
Pretty sure the gunong that i originally posted is indeed bone, not ivory, but photos are difficult to figure with that ID at times, especially after the material has been processed and stained to give an antique effect. :shrug:

We all know there are issues with ivory trade but alarm bells do not always need to be rung.

The small tusk in the photo shows to be cut clean. This is very rarely the case with poached ivory, where the entire tusk is removed from the dead Elephant.

Here is one such example of cut tusks;
http://www.asianelephantresearch.com/project-Treatment-of-Tusk-Infection.php

Gav

[David]

Gentlemen...i see no reason why this thread should now move into discussion of the ivory trade. I don't believe the original gunong is ivory. the fittings seems to be made of bone. Let's discuss THIS weapon and try to keep this on topic and not digress into a debate about legal vs illegal ivory. :)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ I had to look up German Silver which appears to be made of ~ three fifths copper, one fifth nickel and one fifth zinc. Some versions of this alloy may have slightly different ratios of these metals, and some may be made with only copper and nickel, and no zinc. A silver test would deliver the answer.

The work looks new along the edges of the finished worked silver where I can see sharp edges. The incised patterns are uniformally cut and appear new and without wear indicating a freshly worked project. I have to say, however, that the work looks good but I am no expert on these weapons nor do I know the silver smiths of that region. (if indeed it is silver)

Where or if it can be proven that this workshop is producing authentic weapons and provided that there are no illusions by the owner I see no reason why an ongoing ethnographic production unit shouldn't do well...If the work is true then these could be the antiques of the future. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Where or if it can be proven that this workshop is producing authentic weapons and provided that there are no illusions by the owner I see no reason why an ongoing ethnographic production unit shouldn't do well...If the work is true then these could be the antiques of the future. :shrug:
I am basically in agreement with you Ibrahiim. I doubt that the metal is silver simply because the seller (who sells a great deal of similar Moro weapons on eBay) made absolutely no mention of the nature of the material. A seasoned and astute seller such as this would undoubtably mention silver as a selling point if it were the case.
I would be quite pleased to see the continuance of high quality tradition weapons being produced in the area. My only concern is that they all appear to have been "aged" for appearance sake and then presented with no claim to age whatsoever. This kind of leaves the question open for the buyer and as we all probably know, people tend to believe what they want to believe if not told otherwise. And then, if a buyer who assumes the item has age turns around a couple of years later and sells it it might then become labelled as "early 20th Century" or some other nonsense like that. Of course, it is always "buyer beware", isn't it... :shrug: :)

[mross]

The whole piece has a new look to me. Colors seem too bright to have age. That being said the workmanship looks good. If it is made new and sold as new that is quite ok. I see a problem if they get old blades and put new but "aged" fittings on it. Then things can get a bit dicey.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I am basically in agreement with you Ibrahiim. I doubt that the metal is silver simply because the seller (who sells a great deal of similar Moro weapons on eBay) made absolutely no mention of the nature of the material. A seasoned and astute seller such as this would undoubtably mention silver as a selling point if it were the case.
I would be quite pleased to see the continuance of high quality tradition weapons being produced in the area. My only concern is that they all appear to have been "aged" for appearance sake and then presented with no claim to age whatsoever. This kind of leaves the question open for the buyer and as we all probably know, people tend to believe what they want to believe if not told otherwise. And then, if a buyer who assumes the item has age turns around a couple of years later and sells it it might then become labelled as "early 20th Century" or some other nonsense like that. Of course, it is always "buyer beware", isn't it... :shrug: :)


Salaams David ~ I agree. If the seller can be given a prod to divulge the material(silver) then I think it will clear up the problem. The work looks new but I see no deliberate attempt to age the weapon. The copper rings on the hilt are completely new and there are no dents in any of the metalwork. The horn looks "as is" without any deliberately applied "wear.'' I get no clues from the blade at all. Thus it appears new, though, in the best traditions of the style, however, a confirmation from the seller would allow collectors to better decide.

In countries where ethnographics are ongoing and live I see no problem with the new item being faithfully reproduced in the old way (in fact in some countries the buyer often insists upon a brand new item since why would he want to wear something someone else has worn ? That is certainly often the case in the market in Oman and the UAE appertaining to local people as opposed to foreigners who tend to go for older items) provided it is certificated and the ethnographic collecting fraternity are aware of the situation these weapons can join the historical tradition... Your final note of "buyer beware" being key. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

The work looks new but I see no deliberate attempt to age the weapon.
Just a small disagreement there. The bone of the sheath and the hilt has been stained to give an aged color and patina.