Bali ceremonial knife

[Gustav]

Dear All,

finally it has found his new owner, and I think, it would be interesting to start a discussion about it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-INDONESIAN-CEREMONIAL-DAGGER-KNIFE-INLAID-BLADE-CARVED-GOLD-GILT-SHEATH-/110986162966?pt=Asian_Antiques&hash=item19d74a7316

At first sight I thought it would be the real thing, but then... one thing for sure: it would be the first one of this kind I see without the "Banji" (swastika) ornament. And there are some other strange features.

Is this one an attempt to cheat or just a less fine or more recent example of its kind?

[Gustav]

Pics continued:

[Gustav]

And more:

[Atlantia]

Hi Gustav,

It's a nice knife, shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don't.

Artzi had a similar one on his website some time ago:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1812

[Atlantia]

I have two 'cousins'.
Sadly neither comes with the oversized ceremonial scabbard, the "party dress".
One of mine is 'naked' and the other only has it's 'everday' scabbard.
Both of mine have the 'swastika' geometry.

[Sajen]

Hello Gustav,

have found this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1282&highlight=bali+knife

The one from Artzi was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=877&highlight=bali+knife

The one you have posted look original to my eyes and like the both threads show they don't need to have the swastika ornament. But honestly I have state that I don't know to much about them.

Attached a picture from the first thread.

Regards,

Detlef

[Atlantia]

Hello Gustav,

have found this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1282&highlight=bali+knife

The one from Artzi was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=877&highlight=bali+knife

The one you have posted look original to my eyes and like the both threads show they don't need to have the swastika ornament. But honestly I have state that I don't know to much about them.

Attached a picture from the first thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

That's interesting.
The example you found has not got the 'monster' on the spine.
Remember my two cousins?

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

That's interesting.
The example you found has not got the 'monster' on the spine.
Remember my two cousins?

Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef

[Gustav]

But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.


Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".

[Sajen]

Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".


Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy. :shrug:

Maybe Albert will help by this question.

[Gustav]

Detlef, I think, you are wright. The knife in van Zonnevelds book don't have ornaments on blade, Schmeltz also describes a plain blade with grooves on both sides. So perhaps we can see some logic here, regarding this and picture in #4:

No "monster" head = no further ornaments on the blade.

[Battara]

Ceremonially what were these used for?

[CharlesS]

Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

[Atlantia]

Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

Absolutely! My own trade, which is why I rather like them.
There's a great thread somewhere with tons of pictures.......


Here we go:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443

[Atlantia]

Hi Guys
If you do a little digging into the archives there are some great threads on these rare and interesting knives.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000732.html

[Albert]

Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy. :shrug:

Maybe Albert will help by this question.


That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert

[Sajen]

That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert

Thank you very much for clarification!


Regards,

Detlef

[Atlantia]

Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef :D

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef :D

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene

Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef

[Gustav]

I suppose - more ornamentation - more magic content. I don't think, they all are equal. We have so far: plain blades (without the "head" embellishment), blades with ornamentation (with "head"), blades with ornamentation including "Banji", which is magically a VERY important ornament (with "head").

I know, it all sounds childish. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.

[Sajen]

It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.


Hello Gustav,

will try to ask a Balinese I know if he can tell us more.

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Absolutely! My own trade, which is why I rather like them.
There's a great thread somewhere with tons of pictures.......


Here we go:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443
Well I feel like an idiot now! :o

I clean forgot about this thread (and I posted in it! :rolleyes: ).

Thanks.......

[Atlantia]

Well I feel like an idiot now! :o

I clean forgot about this thread (and I posted in it! :rolleyes: ).

Thanks.......

ROTF!!!
I do it all the time, don't worry at all mate.

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:

Hullo again Gene,

FWIW ..... I refer to mine as Balinese Blakas.

Best,

I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things..... ;)

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before :( Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:



I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things..... ;)

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before :( Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene

Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef

[Atlantia]

Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thanks, that clears it up nicely.
So tiuk pengentas it is!

[VVV]

I have noticed that the old ones usually don't have the swastika pattern, so maybe it's the other way around?
Here are two blurry cell phone pictures I shot when visiting the Klungkung palace museum. There seems to be a difference between the ceremonial axe and this "household knife", both in use and name.

Michael

PS I have one and used to have an additional that I traded. One is plain and the other have an ornamented blade. Both of them have this kind of scabbard, old style makara hilt, the "monster" protrusion and inlay on the back of the blade.
I suspect that the makara hilt, more than if there is inlay on the blade, is an age indicator.

[Battara]

Ok, so this one I have was also used for funeral services as well?

I know it is ceremonial and like the one in your pictures above. Also there is heavily silver koftgari on both sides.

[Sajen]

Hello all,

here the answer I just received from Bali:

Dear Detlef,
Thank you for your email and the link, of course I still remember you. I try to give a small information about "tiuk pengentas", in Bali we use tiuk pengentas as one of a must thing for cremation ceremony, to open the wrap of the body we use tiuk pengentas which symbolize to open another word for the soul,and hope that the soul will get a good way. after we bring the body to cemetery, we also use tiuk pengentas to open the tie of the buffalo statue, there is a hole inside the buffalo to put the body and burning the body inside.
I hope my little explanation can give you a little information.
kindly regards,
Ketut Karang


I have asked him further questions and will post his answer here when I have received it.
Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Ok, so this one I have was also used for funeral services as well?

I know it is ceremonial and like the one in your pictures above. Also there is heavily silver koftgari on both sides.


Hello Jose,

yes, I think so.

[Sajen]

Just received the second mail:

Dear Detlef,
the form or the style also the size of the tiuk pengentas can be different but he purpose is the same, they can make more beautiful with ukiran or just a simple one, of course the rich people or king family will make it a nice one, but we cannot say that the good knife is for king family or high caste, everybody can have a good or a simple one as they like.
kindly regards,
Ketut Karang

So it's relatively simple why there are different styles found from the tiuk pengentas and no special reason why are found inlaid blades with which ornament or "monster head".

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Great information and contacts, right from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Thank you.

[VVV]

Detlef,

Are you sure that your Balinese friend responded to the same knife that was originally posted on this thread?
To me it seems like he describes the axe, not the knife?
Except my picture from the Klungkung Palace here is another reference

http://pande.balidenpasartrading.com/search.php?ipn=21&top=9

And below from an earlier thread from the Denpasar museum.

I tried Leiden but unfortunately they don't have any domestic name on it.
Michael

[Sajen]

Detlef,

Are you sure that your Balinese friend responded to the same knife that was originally posted on this thread?
To me it seems like he describes the axe, not the knife?
Except my picture from the Klungkung Palace here is another reference

http://pande.balidenpasartrading.com/search.php?ipn=21&top=9

And below from an earlier thread from the Denpasar museum.

I tried Leiden but unfortunately they don't have any domestic name on it.
Michael

Hello Michael,

I have send him the link from this thread to read and asked him for opinion and received the first mail about the use. After this I asked him, if there are different meanings/uses by the shown knifes in this thread and received the second mail. He have a good knowledge about Bali keris and collect them and live very traditionally. I will ask him further questions about this point again.

Regards,

Detlef

[VVV]

Thanks Detlef,

I didn't doubt his cultural knowledge, only if he responded to the same pictures based on the museum information. Quit often curators are wrong about artifacts coming from the outside but usually they know about their own culture.

Michael

[Sajen]

Here a further answer I received. I asked him if there are different purpose for the knifes and axe similar ones and about the different names.

Tiuk pengentas has some different size, the smaller one normally we called "tiuk pengentas" the purpose is for light use, like cut the rope and similar, but we also has a bigger one we call it "blakas pengentas", this is for a strong use like cutting the bamboo or other hard thing on the ceremony, actually the purpose is the same only there are many knife craftman make their art design on this kind of knife, as you know that in Bali we make everything with "ukiran" and touch of art and always try to make as good as we can.
kindly regards,
Ketut Karang

[A. G. Maisey]

I have met Ketut Karang on several occasions, but he would not remember me.

Detlef's description of him is accurate,the information Ketut Karang has supplied is absolutely accurate and should be accepted without question.

"blakas" means "machete", or in Indonesian, "parang"

"tiuk" means "knife", or in Indonesian "pisau"

[VVV]

Thanks Detlef and Alan,

What does pengentas mean?

Michael

[Atlantia]

Detlef,

FANTASTIC work my friend!

Bravo! :)

[Sajen]

Thanks Detlef and Alan,

What does pengentas mean?

Michael


Hello Michael,

I would have been able to translate "tiuk" but already happy that Alan was able to translate "blakas" since it makes all more clear.
But frankly I am not able to translate "pengentas". Maybe Alan can help. :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Detlef,

FANTASTIC work my friend!

Bravo! :)

Thank you buddy! :) Glad that I can help. :D Thank's to Ketut for his kind help.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, I do not speak Balinese, I only know a few words, so I cannot give an accurate interpretation of "pengentas".

It would come from the root "entas" which I think has the sense of walking in Balinese, "mentas" means to walk. Logically, "pengentas" would signify a "doer" of the action.

There are some similarities between Balinese and Javanese and in Javanese "entas" can in some usages carry the sense of freeing or moving something or someone from one state to another, for instance "ngentas" is to take something out of something, like taking tempe out of cooking oil, or taking shoes out of the rain; "ngentasake" is to marry your daughter or son to somebody.

Possibly a blakas pengentas is a machete for clearing a way or for freeing something. Tiuk pengentas a knife for freeing something. These are guesses only, as I said, I do not speak Balinese.

[Sajen]

With the the explantion from Alan and the description Ketut Karang has given in post # 29 as follow: "...we use tiuk pengentas which symbolize to open another word for the soul,and hope that the soul will get a good way. after we bring the body to cemetery..." is maybe given a free translation.

[VVV]

Alan and Detlef,

Thanks for the further explanations. So I assume that these blades are for freeing or clearing both physical as well as metaphysical objects.

Michael

[asomotif]

Good evening.

Found a picture of 4 examples from an auction at Christies 1997.
Maybe nice for reference / comparisson.

Best regards,
Willem

[asomotif]

Ps. here is my example.