Kris question to the knowledgeables [Archive]

Antonio Cejunior

16th December 2005, 05:42 PM

Hi all,

While working with a Philippino Smith over the net on a contemporary project for a kris (don't crucify me :) ) I was told that the sides of the guard have meanings.
This is a detail of my old piece (in the sense of ancient)

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/Images/MoroKris%20details_small.jpg

and I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.

On the other hand, when the picture is reversed,

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/Images/MoroKris-details-1_small.jpg

It appears to me that the right side has somehow the sape of an elephant? but also of the same type of basic shape a kukhri has.

Your detailed information would certainly teach me more things.

Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established? Indonesia or Philippines? Who influenced who? Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Thank you all :)
Will retire for the night now.
Best regards,

Antonio

MABAGANI

29th December 2005, 07:02 AM

Andrew

30th December 2005, 12:47 AM

Not sure if a shot wasn't taken at answering this because a search probably would have gone over the same questions regarding the Moro kris.
Here is a great history site.
http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/johor.htm

Very informative site, Mabagani, thanks. :)

But I'm confused: it doesn't really seem to answer any of Antonio's questions. :confused:

MABAGANI

30th December 2005, 06:32 AM

As for the origins of the kris or precusor from keris to kris, I've written my opinions on previous threads. I put the link because Mindanao and Sulu royals trace their heritage to this region Johore, Melaka and Sumatra. The history site of Malaysia and Indonesia gives an overview during the 15th and 16th centuries and their connection and cause for migration from the Johore area to Brunei, Mindanao and Sulu. I'd still stand by my statements that the "archaic" kris changed from the keris during the reign of Sultan Kudrat and his father of Mindanao in the early to mid 17th century when the various sultanates unified in their struggle against foreign aggression and a symbolic form of the kris was created to indicate their relation to other Islamic Malay Sultanates. The kris transitions from dagger to sword when the Mindanao and Sulu sultanates continued to remain unconquered, therefore furthering the evolution from keris to kris. This would have been the same period when the major groups the Maranao, Maguindanao and Tausug showed their unification and made their forms of the kris yet kept their stylistic forms found in the trunk section which showed their specific point of origin. This is IMHO, search my threads again for references.

Andrew

30th December 2005, 07:28 AM

Antonio Cejunior

30th December 2005, 11:06 AM

Hi Mabagani,

Thanks for the link and the rest.
I humbly think that information scattered on threads could be organized so as to better be acessed by everyone.
I wouldn't mind host it if necessary. The point is that my time is not that much concerning seeking all threads and reading them all at this point.

I also have received some pages from Cato's book.

Thanks :)

MABAGANI

30th December 2005, 02:18 PM

Some of my writings regarding the timeline run contrary to the author cited but I've substantiated my statements in various threads.

Mark

3rd January 2006, 04:55 PM

Since no one seemed to be inclined to answer the basic question posed -- do the patterns on a kris have a particular meaning, and if so, what is it? -- I tried following Mabagani's suggestion to search past threads.

Unfortunately, so much has been written on this forum (and the old UBB forum) on kris that there are literally thousands of posts to wade through. I am pretty well trained in key-word searching (being a lawyer and all), but this is one bit of information that you can't easily zero in on with key word searching. I could not even find a thread specifically on the topic of these patterns, for instance.

Can't one of our numerous kris experts here take a minute to teach us ignorant ones? :)

Mark

PS: One thing that I remember being written by our Malay keris experts is that the pattern described as similar to that of a kukri may have had (at least in keris) a similar meaning -- i.e., that of the Shiva Linga or Shiva's Trident -- and that the little curl is indeed representative of an elephant's trunk. Perhaps a "keris guy" could comment on the similar features in the Moro kris?

RhysMichael

3rd January 2006, 05:13 PM

I do not have the answer but I did remember that Fredrico's site has the names in the major dialects. Perhaps these can send the search in the right direction. Those terms are here

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/diagram.html

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 05:17 PM

This is something I am also very interested in. I have noticed that the number of projections on the elephant structure (gajah) varies between keris. I was wondering about the numerology involved. Has it got something to do with rank/class? For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example.

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 06:32 PM

The elephant and snake/dragon are connected with indra which shows us the keris Vedic origins. The Keris blade is described in terms of a snake in motion or a snake in meditation depending if it is straight or not. Note that the Keris also represent Heaven and earth. The keris also is/was given offerings to insure it held its power. The snake and elephant can also be seen on Tibetan Phurbas, ancient Indian daggers and Keris (note the Indian influence in all). Indera was the god worshiped by the ancient Warriors of India. The whole thing points towards a strong Indian influence in keris. Also note that the first Keris in Indonesia appeared with the coming of Indian rule.
The Keris has its origins in ancient India, it represents the mystically charged thunder bolt weapon held by Indera.

"Indra is the chief deity and the god of war and rain, the greatest concerns of the people at that time. He separated the heavens and the earth by defeating Vrtra, a snake-dragon representation of chaos and obstacles. Another Vedic myth describes his defeat of Vrtra using wind and a thunderbolt as his weapons, enabling the monsoon rains to end. Indra must be strengthened with the drink soma, provided by worshippers, to accomplish this task. "

http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/beliefs/vedic_gods.htm

nechesh

3rd January 2006, 06:43 PM

I think that the reason no one wants to wade into this one is that frankly, no one really knows these answers for sure. We can certainly make a lot of guesses and who knows, they might be right, but much of this stuff is just lost information. There have been many in the more recent keris mysticism movement who will claim knowledge to the specific meaning of these parts and if you want you can take their word for it. If it has that symbolic meaning to them today then it is certainly true....for them. I have heard a number of things in regards to the "ron do", those curls on the top of the tail area and the greneng that follows behind it. One is that it is symbolic of writing and is an actual prayer. This seems to be harder to apply to the filings on Moro kris, especially later ones where these marks do not look all that much like writing to me. The figure common on the gandik side is most probably meant as an elephant, perhaps Ganesha, though of course, in Indo keris there are many variations that include Singo, Naga and human figures. Most of the Moro kris seem more elephant like, but i have an old Sulu piece that i would swear is a naga form.

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 06:44 PM

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 07:07 PM

Edited your photo to explain the idea :)

Battara

3rd January 2006, 08:17 PM

Now that I understand the question better (I think :o ) there are certainly talismanic properties to the animal heads, like the elephant that I have seen on many Tausug kris at the base, or like the one you posted which I would say is Maranao looking and more of an eagle. I also agree that there may be a Vedic/Indic origin for the elephant whose meaning goes might be traced back to the Majapahit era (and Indian trade). The eagle may also be similar, like symbolizing originally Garuda, although now perhaps more for the sea eagle in the Philippines. My speculations at present. ;)

MABAGANI

3rd January 2006, 08:26 PM

Thanks keris "knowledgeables" for your insights, I asked on a previous thread for keris experts opinions on the relationships of the different Malay Sultanate keris.
The kris forms vary from elephant, snake, serpent, naga, dragon, crocodile, sarimanok, eagle, parrot and other birds, etc. all motifs specific or mythological.
Pusaka pointed out many of the early Indian/Hindu connections, which raises the question did the keris arrive in Mindanao and Sulu earlier than the Malay Muslim missionaries. A study of the language, beliefs and history show the Hindu culture in the Philippines centuries before Islam so why not the keris? Maybe some answers are in the study of the earlier culture and some more prior interrelated with the coming of Islam.
An example of the early Hindu connection show on the Maranao kris which resemble an elephant on one side vs. the serpent/bird and serpent, the Maranao were the last to convert to Islam and still held to many early beliefs.
I've seen the Sulu kris vary from naga to bird possibly also indicating they may have been made in different periods.

nechesh

3rd January 2006, 08:29 PM

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

This is exactly what i mean. I don't believe you will find any basis for these ideas in any ancient writings and in all probability none of this was intented in the origin of the keris......However, like any system this does not make it invalid if it works for you within the context of the system. Many interesting ideas will no doubt come out of our silat friends on this subject, but we need to keep in mind that these ideas are relatively new and probably have nothing what-so-ever to do with the origins of the keris form. But if it works for you, run with it. ;)

Tim Simmons

3rd January 2006, 08:36 PM

Whats that smell? Fantasy :D sorry

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 09:05 PM

Indra holding two wavy blade daggers which will later be developed into the Keris we all know today. The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam ;)

MABAGANI

3rd January 2006, 09:54 PM

The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam ;)
Although the roots come from an earlier period the kris sword has its origins with Islam. This partly explains why when the archaic kris formed there were variations in the trunk/naga/bird motif while there was uniformity in the sword shape as it transitions from keris to kris.

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 10:23 PM

I totally disagree that the keris is an Islamic weapon. All the evidence points towards Vedic India and none of it points toward Islam. If it really was introduced into Indonesia with the coming of Islam then show us the proof of those statements. Show us the wavy blade weapon in its native country before it was introduced. Such wavy blade weapons existed in Vedic times in India and that’s where it came from.

People try and say that Silat is an Islamic Martial art too when it actually existed in Indonesia LONG before the coming of Islam as did the keris. I say the same if Silat is really an Islamic martial art then lets see it in its native country, dose it exist there, no. So what dose that tell you???

Rick

3rd January 2006, 11:01 PM

Pusaka , I believe that Mabagani is referring to the KRIS *sword* of the Muslim Philippines .

Here we spell the two forms differently .

nechesh

3rd January 2006, 11:13 PM

Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond. :)
Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia.
The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword.
BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing.
I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?

Federico

3rd January 2006, 11:44 PM

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 11:45 PM

I’m sorry If I misunderstood what was being said but I have to say that I have heard people say that the Indonesian Keris is an Islamic Weapon too, so I was eager to clear that up because I really don’t believe that.

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one :)

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other. This is what my research has lead me to personally believe but I accept that lots has been lost over time. If anyone else has any other Idea about what it symbolically represents I would love to hear it.

Pusaka

3rd January 2006, 11:53 PM

MABAGANI

4th January 2006, 12:12 AM

No problem Pusaka, your insights regarding the keris are enlightening and help me with perspective.

We all know the martial arts originated with the homosapiens domination over the neanderthal or was that alien intervention too.lol

btw who practices any form of silat here? i for one.

nechesh

4th January 2006, 12:20 AM

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one :)

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other.

I just need to point out again Pusaka, that the original keris form is NOT the wavy blade of which you speak, but a straight one. In fact most keris are straight (perhaps 2 in 3), so this back and forth dualist explanation doesn't really fly.
I think that as long as you are tying the keris and it's origins in with silat then this a a very appropriate place to discuss the origins of silat. I personally think the keris is much older than silat and that forms of keris fighting that are taught in silat are relatively new. So i wonder if there is any written evidence (old manuals, mention in old texts, etc.) that can make the connection between silat and the keris in ancient times.

MABAGANI

4th January 2006, 12:37 AM

nechesh

4th January 2006, 12:42 AM

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

Well, i'd have to see the carvings. There certainly are a whole lote of straight edged weapons out there. ;) Can you suggest a place to see photographs of these carvings or possibly post some?

MABAGANI

4th January 2006, 12:49 AM

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

nechesh

4th January 2006, 12:54 AM

I like the book by O'ong Maryono, "Pencak Silat in the Indonesian archipelago".

Thanks, i've seen that book for sale, i'll have to look into it. :)

Pusaka

4th January 2006, 12:55 AM

Rick

4th January 2006, 01:03 AM

One other thing I would like to draw your attention to is that the Keris handle although it has been defaced it still has the original symbolic meaning, A man slightly bent over, hands resting on his stomach in meditation.

There are myriad styles of ukiran ; I don't think this theory really holds water .

This form that you refer to is called Jawa Demam or fevered man .
What does this have to do with the original topic we are discussing here anyway ?

Let's get back on that topic , shall we .

VANDOO

4th January 2006, 05:08 AM

THE QUESTION IS WHICH CAME FIRST THE KERIS OR THE KRIS, I THINK THE KERIS! THEN THE LARGER FORM KRIS EVOLVED FROM IT. DID IT EVOLVE TO A LARGER SIZE IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE ADVENT OF ISLAM OR AFTER.
I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

AS IN MOST OCEANIC SOCIETYS THERE WERE PROBABLY VERY FEW IRON OR STEEL TOOLS OR WEAPONS IN THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE THE COMING OF THE HINDU ,ISLAM, CHRISTIAN SPANISH AND AMERICAN POWERS. ONLY THE TOP MEN IN AREAS WHERE FORIGN TRADERS CAME WERE LIKELY TO HAVE HAD THEM.
I SUSPECT THE MEANING OF THE ELEPHANT TRUNK AND OTHER CARVINGS WOULD BE MORE EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY GROUPS WHO HAVE NOT CHANGED RELIGION, CUSTOMS OR LIFE STYLE IF ANY SUCH GROUP EXHISTS. I DO THINK THAT THE HINDU BELIEFS AND ANSWERS PREDATE THE FULL DEVELOPMENT OF THE KRIS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST UNDER THE RULES OF ISLAM. THE WAY OF MAKEING KRIS WOULD HAVE CONTINUED AS THAT WAS THE TRADITIONAL WAY THEY HAD ALWAYS BEEN MADE AND WHAT MADE THEM SUCH GOOD WEAPONS. I HAVE ALSO NOTICED SOME DAYAK SWORDS RESEMBLE SOME USED BY THE NAGA TRIBES IN INDIA AND BURMA SO INFLUENCE DEFINITELY CAME INTO THE REGION AT A EARLY TIME.

DISCLAIMER (THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS ON IT WITH NO HARD FACTS TO BACK IT UP BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THE LOGICAL WAY FOR THINGS TO HAVE HAPPENED.) MENTIONING ONE RELIGION IS RISKY AND I HAVE MENTIONED THREE :eek: I HOPE NO ONE TAKES OFFENCE AS NONE IS INTENDED.

MABAGANI

4th January 2006, 06:54 AM

I WOULD GUESS THE KRIS WAS THERE BEFORE ISLAM AS THE TAILSMAN CARVINGS ARE UNLIKE ANYTHING FOUND WHERE ISLAM STARTED AND THE BELIEFS WOULD BE UNLIKELY TO HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY THE RELIGION. THE PEOPLE WHO CONVERTED TO ISLAM WOULD HAVE KEPT SOME OF THEIR TRADITIONS ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MODIFIED BY THE NEW RELIGION AND LOST MANY OF THE MEANINGS THROUGH TIME.

Not necessarily, the Moros practiced what was called "folk" Islam, meaning they intertwined early beliefs.
I'd agree the keris arrived in Philippines before Islam but not the kris, if it were true your timeline brings origins back a couple of centuries to before the mid 15th century? If I recall in a previous thread its rare or even unproven to find keris dated that early?
Eastern thought holds that true knowledge remains flexible, so I'll keep an open mind on this subject even if they don't fit into my own observations. It would be difficult to prove many of these opinions with concrete evidence like one would want, so many of the opinions are as good as any. Like you mentioned religion and faith can get sticky.
I've put out much of my ideas regarding the kris in this forum waiting to see how the next publication would mesh with my own study.

Boedhi Adhitya

4th January 2006, 07:55 AM

Hi all,
First of all, I have to admit that I'm not an expert on Sundang (or anything else, I believe :) ), and I don't have all the answer.
Just as Mr Antonio Cejunior said, the Ricikan (or 'lattice work' :) ) have meanings, at least in Java. I don't know whether this philosphical meanings may apply to other blades from other region like Bali, Bugis, Malay or Moro. But since many experts believe that keris' origin was from Java and spread-out to archipelago when Majapahit kingdom reign (ca. 12/13 C.), it might be helpful to study the Javanese keris, as an aid to understand the meaning of the form, in this case, the lattice work.

Secondly, I have to warn all of the forumities that these kind of meanings are very subjectives, and may change from time-to-time, even from person-to-person, as 'pusaka' is always a private matters. This meaning usually passed by orally from generation to generation, so a good-old literature may not exist. The oldest reliable literature about the meaning of ricikan/dhapur keris is Serat Centhini, written ca. early 19 C. Other was written by Prince Karanggayam, ca. 16 C., but it's authenticity/reliability is questioned. So, the meaning I propose here is "as told by" the elders, and may not apply to as far as Majapahit era. Tracing the real meaning of it in Majapahit era could be very hard, if not impossible, since no reliable written evidence known about it exist.

Now about the ricikans :
The Elephant's trunk look-alike (pics.3 by Mr. Pusaka) called "sekar kacang" (sekar=flower, kacang=peanuts) or telale gajah (elephant's trunk). It's curled shape symbolize humble and man's obligation to worship The Almighty. Other non-curled shape called "Sekar Kacang Pogok" (broken) symbolize "dignity/proudness" and reserved for upper rank/class, as in dhapur Pasopati. The Upper class is (surely) expected to show their dignity and authorities to keep the obedience from his community, and thus, may maintain order.

The Jalu Memet (Jalu=taji=cockspur, memet=hidden) is the thorn-like protruding in the 'armpit' of Sekar Kacang (in the 3rd pics posted by Pusaka). Symbolize "the man cockspur" (just see it inside your brief, :D ). It should keep hidden, and use it in "the right way at the right place and in the right time" (with the right partner, indeed). The teaching behind it may go on and on.

The thorn-like protruding below the Jalu Memet called "lambe gajah" (lambe=bibir=lips). It symbolize the mouth, the teaching is simple : "watch your mouth/words"

Now the other side.. The Greneng (the lattice works on the right part of 1st pics by Mr. Antonio).

The Greneng consist of several ricikans :

The very first, single thorn, (just after the blade meets the ganja/crosspiece, pics. 1) called "thingil", means small things, symbolize as it means, the teaching is 'do not ignore the small/trivial things, keep the open and keen mind'
Pair of thorn just after the thingil called "ri pandan" = pandanus thorn. I don't know what it's meaning, yet :(

Just after the ri pandan, came the "W" shape (or "M", if the tip pointed down) called "ron dha". It resembles the "dha" characters in javanese 'font'. Just after 1st ron dha, came the ri pandan again, then the ron dha again, then double thorn of "kanyut" resembling the "Ma" characters (some book may define Kanyut as a curled-tail ganja). The double "ron dha" assembly called "greneng sungsun"=double/stacked greneng. All characters could be read as "dhadha ma". Serat Centhini interpret this as "The Death (MAti) is came from/inside your chest (DHADHA)" According to Garret and Solyom, Yosopangarso (elder brother of Empu Djeno, the son of Empu Supowinangun) interpret it as "My Chest likes thunder." Other elders interpret it as "Lapang Dada", means patience/tolerance. The "Greneng" word itself means grumble/complaining.
The whole assembly than could be interpreted as 'Live your life with spirit and patience, do not ignore the small things and do not grumble/complaining about your fate. We all will die after all"

Javanese culture is a very unique. When new culture/value came, they may 'reinterpret' their existing culture according to the new culture rather then completly changing their customs. Thus, the old art/culture may still being kept, but with new "interpretation", as in wayang, keris and other cultural ceremonies.

Wish may help.

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

Pusaka

4th January 2006, 01:06 PM

I think the Keris is older then the kris. Perhaps the Keris shape influenced the shaping of native long bladed bush knives so that gradually they developed and took on a more keris like appearance. I think that they are probably pre Islamic also. The general symbolism would be the same though.

Pusaka

4th January 2006, 01:45 PM

I think many of the vedic symbolisms involved with the keris are touch upon in this article http://www.yoga-age.com/articles/lightonvrtra.html

Pusaka

4th January 2006, 03:44 PM

You will often hear people say that a Keris should have an odd number of luk to be considered as a good keris. If you ask them why, they most certainly don’t know why.
If we count the number of luk on the side of Indra we will see that there is more then on the side of Vrtra. Symbolically it represents that the Keris is a good keris as Indra has won the battle over Vrtra.The right hand side aspects (good) win over the left hand aspects (evil). If the number of lux was even this would not be the case and the keris would then be considered a bad keris.

Pusaka

4th January 2006, 05:51 PM

If we remember that Indra is a war god the elephant he rides is a battle elephant. War elephants often had headdresses attached to the head and trunk. These armour headdresses often had sharp spikes attached. This would explain the spikes on the Gajah as being an elephant armour headdress.

nechesh

4th January 2006, 06:09 PM

MABAGANI

4th January 2006, 06:36 PM

Rick

4th January 2006, 06:38 PM

Please explain this ricikan and greneng with your vedic war elephant theory .
There are a fairly high percentage of keris that lack detail in the ricikan from Jawa and the Celebes ; I have even seen Moro kris with plain ricikan .

nechesh

4th January 2006, 07:17 PM

On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

I am not questioning the dualistic approach per se as being too western, just the absolute B&W, good & evil understanding. Those who follow the cult of Kali are not necessarily "evil", they merely have a different perspective. Yes, it is esoteric and complex.... :)

MABAGANI

4th January 2006, 07:30 PM

Yes, and if everyone has the potential to reach truth, I would not expect every answer or path to be the same, or every keris/kris to fit into the same mold...its an open forum for minds to write freely

Pusaka

4th January 2006, 07:30 PM

Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

Ok since you seam to think that everything I have said is wrong then maybe you can correct me? Don’t give me the “I don’t know but I know your wrong” treatment because it’s not smart.

Andrew

4th January 2006, 07:56 PM

Ok since you seam to think that everything I have said is wrong then maybe you can correct me? Don’t give me the “I don’t know but I know your wrong” treatment because it’s not smart.

A fair request, Pusaka. But a bit defensive as phrased. Let's all take a breath and try to share information in a non-confrontational manner.

Thanks.

punal

4th January 2006, 08:16 PM

You know guys, there's no place on earth where you can find a forum like this, it's breath taking! and I'm loving it every moment of it.
Please continue, it's very educational specially for a newbies like me.

Nice thread!

Rick

4th January 2006, 08:31 PM

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .

nechesh

4th January 2006, 09:15 PM

Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them.
Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man. ;) :)
I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really :) ) and draw your own conclusions.

Pusaka

4th January 2006, 09:53 PM

If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message.
The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

Rick

4th January 2006, 10:20 PM

MABAGANI

4th January 2006, 11:50 PM

Pusaka

5th January 2006, 01:21 AM

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

Rick

5th January 2006, 01:39 AM

Rick

5th January 2006, 01:50 AM

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

You're welcome Mabagani , there is good fodder in those two pieces ; stuff that every person trying to understand the keris should read and refer back to on occasion .
Mr. Maisey is a virtual treasure trove of information and keris lore .

A half century of research and study cannot be just tossed aside .

Antonio Cejunior

5th January 2006, 04:40 AM

Thank you all gentlemen,

I think this is a very important element of reference that deserves a bit more of study anf of systemization.

The thread picked up speed and perhaps somebody like Battara or Fred Malibago could do something of a copy and paste for reason that some will know.

Thank you Pusaka for illustrating my photo.
This is absolutely fascinating.

Thank you all :)

BluErf

5th January 2006, 01:55 PM

************************************************** ********
Rick Wrote:

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .
************************************************** ********

Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs. :)

Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome!

You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess. :D

You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey :) ).

The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!! :) ), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone.

The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis.

And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant.

You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning. :)

Pusaka

5th January 2006, 03:48 PM

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

Andrew

5th January 2006, 05:21 PM

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

Pusaka,

I think you are missing the point here. I'm not a student of keris (or kris), and consequently have no "dog in this fight". Perhaps I can offer some objective advice.

It does not appear to me that anyone is dismissing your thoughts out of hand. On the contrary, you are bringing some interesting and thought-provoking ideas to the table.

The problem I percieve arises from your desire for definitive answers. Quite simply, those are not available right now.

Disagreements are inevitable when discussing these weapons and that's fine: I feel it stimulates and enriches a discussion. You may find your position is better recieved if you avoid couching it in absolute statements of fact.

Best,
Andrew

nechesh

5th January 2006, 05:28 PM

Pusaka, i honestly wish you the best of luck with your search. I also believe that this search should continue, though IMO nothing concrete will ever come out of it. But theories are a good thing to as long as we continue to understand them as such and not try to present them as fact. Not to discourage you, but keep in mind that a guy like Alan Maisey has been studying keris for 50 yrs. He apprenticed and was trained by one of the last great kraton empus and has dedicated his life to the study and understanding of keris. So when his research is inconclusive it is not for lack of searching.
Just so you understand, i don't dismiss all the theories you have put forth here and also believe, like you, that there is a strong Vedic connection to be found in the symbolism of the keris. As has been pointed out, one of the biggest problems in researching this stuff is that there are very few records to draw from on the origins of the keris. The culture has evolved greatly over the centuries and has gained much new symbolism over the years. As i stated before, this new symbolism is not invalid. It applies to the current culture. I doubt, for instance, that much of what Boedhi Adhitya layed out on the symbolism of the keris actually would apply in Mojopahit times, though some of it probably passed through over the centuries. It is, however, probably right on for those using the keris today as a tool for spiritual growth, and as such, completely valid. Don't stop looking, thinking and connecting. You might not always be right, but that, i am afraid, is the nature of this study. :)

BSMStar

5th January 2006, 07:19 PM

One of the greatest of human experiences is the search for truth and knowledge. Wisdom comes from in-depth knowledge, experience, and the ability to discern. The keris is shrouded in a thousand years of unrecorded change. From the first proto-keris that was traded, copied, modified, influenced by Hinduism, Islam, different kingdoms, regions and peoples… to the keris being made today, the only true constant for the keris… is change. The keris of today is richly immersed in culture and tradition that changes from location to location, shrouded in mysterious meaning and perhaps enhanced with mystical powers.

I am of the belief that in order to understand the keris and the origins of the keris, the secret is embedded with the people of the keris. To seek out examples of different keris from different times will still leave a mystery, a void… oh look, a new shape… why was that done, what does this mean? To know the people of the time, to know what they know… then will understanding be found. After all, isn’t that the purpose of this forum, to seek and share understanding?

I think this has been one of the most insightful threads, a small glimpse into the meaning of the ricikans. Thank you Antonio for starting this tread! And thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding us of the wisdom of our elders and to have the ears to listen.

MABAGANI

6th January 2006, 07:14 AM

btw Great additional historical info and photos of bas-reliefs in Dominique Buttin's site "Malay World Edged Weapons" http://old.blades.free.fr/

MABAGANI

6th January 2006, 01:26 PM

I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.
It appears to me that the right side has somehow the shape of an elephant?
Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established?
Indonesia or Philippines?
Who influenced who?
Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Short answers to a tall order-
Assuming the keris arrived in the Philippines and paralleled development according to traces of early written history from the 9th century as evidence of influence and connectedness to neighboring kingdoms,
the changes from keris to kris occurred after the Muslim conversion in the 15th century as early as the 17th century (note: one of the earliest accounts of the kris as a cut and thrust weapon was found in writings by Dampier)
the longer explanation of why and where the evolution from keris to kris occurred is in another thread,
some of the symbolic meanings were pre-Islamic,
depending on which Moro group one is researching,
the symbolism differs from bird, naga to elephant etc. (some detailed meanings noted in this thread by keris experts)
Moro royalty recorded relationships to kingdoms of 15th century Johore, Melaka, Sumatra and Brunei.
One can not state the kris is "essentially" a Muslim sword because the kris and keris in the Philippines were also used and made by non-Muslims (examples appear among the Visayans, Katipunan, etc.)
imho

Pusaka

12th January 2006, 05:33 PM

Andrew

12th January 2006, 07:05 PM

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag :eek:

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

Pusaka, your link to a commercial site is interesting, but does not really support your position. What "records" are you referring to? (Mind you: I'm genuinely interested, and not necessarily disagreeing with your theory.)

You've been down the meteorite path on this board before, and it did not end well.

Everyone please maintain civility lest this thread suffer similar fate.

marto suwignyo

12th January 2006, 08:55 PM

This discussion has turn to a very interesting and maybe important direction for keris study, I feel.

I will to give my compliment to Mr. Pusaka for his original way to think about the keris and for his understanding to see the influence of Indian culture in the origin of the keris.

The origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. There are many theories and beliefs, and maybe now we can never know for truly where from comes the keris. But if we will to give a theory about keris origin, and if we will that people maybe accept that the theory we have is a little bit true, we must also to give evidence and/or a logic reasons that our theory is worth to consider as maybe true. Just an idea without evidence and without logic reasons is for pleasant discussion to fill in time if we drink coffee.

In this Forum several years past was also a discussion about keris origin. In this discussion appears this remark:-

"Actually,what I set out to do when I commenced my investigations into this matter was to try to establish the existence of a keris like dagger in India prior to an appearance in Jawa.My research into archaic forms was thorough.I failed to establish this existence ,and as a consequence ,was left with only Prambanan II."

This remark made by Mr. Alan Maisey. He talking about his early research to discover keris origin.

For people who interest in ideas about keris origin maybe is a good idea to read this thread. Here is the link:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000607.html

About meteor in the keris blade.

This also something that many times people discussion. In Jawa we believe that keris have make with meteor since long ago. But this our belief, this has never been prove, except for the keris from Prambanan meteor and that only to begin about maybe 1800. For people with the interest in using meteor for making keris blade maybe a good idea to read the work of Mr. Bennet Bronson :- "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris", publish in "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21.No.1, 1987.

Mr. Pusaka again I will to give you my compliment for your original way to think. I hope you do not lose your interest with the keris and that you will to continue your study with the serious and academic approach.

Andrew

12th January 2006, 11:13 PM

Outstanding post, Marto. Thank you for the sage words. :)

Rick

12th January 2006, 11:51 PM

One could also suggest that Mr. Pusaka may benefit and further his overall knowledge from a thorough reading of Robert Elgood's fine book Hindu Arms and Ritual isbn# 90 5972 020 2 . :)

nechesh

13th January 2006, 12:08 AM

Marto, sensible and informative words as usual. Can you make any suggestions on where i might get a hold of Mr. Bronson"s "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris". After a frustrating round of googling i came up with no usable results.

Pusaka

13th January 2006, 09:46 PM

Thank you Marto Suwignyo for your kind words and yes I will read that document you suggest.

If we consider for a moment that the keris is from Vedic India then perhaps we should consider written Sanskrit and its relation to the keris. One of the shortest written prayers in Sanskrit is OM. OM is considered to be a vibration which fills the universe, the very essence of the creator. It is composed of 3 Sanskrit letters, A,U,M. The first character is A which consists of two characters joined together, the first looks like a 3 and the second looks like a n. Above the n character is a curved character which represents the letter U. Finally the last character looks like an O and represents the Sanskrit letter M. AUM, pronounced Om is a very important prayer in Vedic Indian times as it is at present. Examining the markings filed into the Keris I suddenly realised that it was Sanskrit writing. Looking at this particular Keris the prayer Om is repeated 4 times. One thing that should be realised is that the Sanskrit letter M has no dimension in space and so can be represented as a dot or a circle. It represents the inner universe while the other characters represent the outer universe. Looking at the picture you can see how the markings on the keris are in fact Sanskrit characters.
All my study’s so far point to a strong Vedic Indian influence. I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation.

Andrew

13th January 2006, 10:55 PM

I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation.

I don't think anyone has said this here.

Pusaka

13th January 2006, 11:18 PM

I don't think anyone has said this here.
No they have not but I have met several that have. It is common among Silat practitioners. I think some schools even teach their students that the keris is a Muslim creation.

MABAGANI

14th January 2006, 12:02 AM

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

Pusaka

14th January 2006, 12:11 AM

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.
Yes you are correct. That is the meaning of Om though, very similar to the Christian idea of logos, "In the beginning was the Word (sound,vibration), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)

http://www.shaivam.org/mantra_pranava.htm

MABAGANI

14th January 2006, 12:38 AM

My point was I don't deny Hindu/Budhist influence, nor do I deny Islamic influence depending on specific keris or kris, its possible to hold multiple truths within a statement without having theories conflict, but general statements encompassing every keris/kris becomes questionable.

John

14th January 2006, 12:54 AM

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

nechesh

14th January 2006, 12:56 AM

I like the way you think Pusaka. This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately i think you have overlooked a couple of things. Sanskrit has been written in a number of different scripts over history; Bramhi, Kharoshti, and currently modern Devanagari, which is different from classical Devanagari. Your AUM script is a modern one, which i believe is the one put forth by the American Sanskrit Institite. It is very different from the sanskrit script used at the time of the origins of the keris (at least 600-700 yrs. ago, perhaps more).
The area on the keris know as the Ron Dha (pronounced Dho) is meant to represent the Javanese (Kawi) letter Dha. Ergo it's name. The script for this letter has also changed over the centuries and the current Surakarta Dha is not the same as the ancient dha of centuries before. We can see this reflected in the Ron Dha of ancient keris as compared to more recent blades. So the Ron Dha has also changed over the years.
So what you have done is attempt to match a 20th century script against a 19th century symbol , which looks nothing like the script or the symbol from 500+ years ago.
Still we are left with the question of what does (did) the Dha in the Ron Dha represent. Though i am reluctant to definitively say, i think you might be on the right track that it refers to a Godly concept.
:)

Kiai Carita

14th January 2006, 01:13 AM

No they have not but I have met several that have. It is common among Silat practitioners. I think some schools even teach their students that the keris is a Muslim creation.

Hi Pusaka,

Muslims (I am one) who tell you the keris is a Muslim creation are mistaken as the keris was in Jawa and Nusantara long before the Islam religion reached the archipelago. I don't think any school teaches that the keris is a Muslim creation. In Malaysia, the words masuk-Melayu which mean to enter (become) Malay have for a long time been synonimous to masuk-Islam (to enter Islam) and all Malay culture is seen as an expression of Islam, including the keris. This might be the source of confusion.

However the Muslim Saints who spread Islam in Nusantara did not totaly destroy the culture that was present there when they came, rather they preserved everything that could be sanctioned by Islam. So, for examples, the satiya widow burning was out but the keris as a symbolic weapon stayed: the wilah and the ganja which were originally the lingga and the yoni became the syahadat Tauhid and the syahadat Rasul. The keris luk 17 becomes representing the 17 raka'ats performed in sholat each day by the sallafi Muslims, and so on.

In the silat world the silat originating in Jawa, Madura or Bali (al keris making centres) don't use the keris as a weapon but in Malaysia it does. However, post-modern silat is seeing the keris being used as a weapon in West Java style fighting, taught by a Californian silat man who tries to tie his school with, amongst others, the traditional Cimande of Tarik Kolot. In the real Cimande the keris is never used as a weapon. Neither is the kujang, which is a specific Sundanese 'tosan-aji' used for farmers. However you can now learn Californian kujang jurus, which is 'most devastating' ;) .

Your post on the MAP forum about the relation to the script AUM and the janggut, the kembang kacang and greneng and ron dha nunut on the keris in the photo is interesting. Just remember that these ricikan are relatively new in kerisology and the first kerises were simple betok and brojols. The words ron dha nunut mean 'an added leaf of the letter dha'. Dha is the 12th character in the Jawa script hanacaraka. Several Muslim 'saints' who spread Islam in Jawa and Nusantara were also great keris designers, collectors and silat teachers hence the thinking that keris originated in Islam.

Warm salams to al,
KC

Pusaka

14th January 2006, 02:20 AM

nechesh

14th January 2006, 03:52 AM

Sorry, what do you mean text 2,3,4 & 5 ?

Pusaka, i believe John is referring to your numbered illustrations.
John, the texts of 2 and 3 are the modern sanskrit letters for AUM linked together side by side to look like a Ron Dha Nunut.
And 4 and 5 are the ron dha and jenggot of the modern keris that Pusaka displayed. :)

Pusaka

14th January 2006, 11:17 AM

Nechesh you say that the symbol I used for Om is modern, look again, did I use the modern symbol for Om?
Here is the Tibetan symbol for Om, slightly different in that the second character is inverted. The Tibetan symbol is certainly not modern.

Left: tibet

Mans

14th January 2006, 02:25 PM

Very interesting thread and debate.....

But, how if the keris revealed came from the Animism and Dynamism period (because the Keris believed has the Tuah or supranatural power) before the Hindu, Budha or Islam period :confused:
Then, on the Hindu period, the keris has analyzed an given some symbols as the Ricikans which more real, beauty and has the sense... :confused:
So, Hindu, Budha and Islam period just continuing the keris cultures from the past period :confused:
.... or, the keris came from Hindu period, but with enthusiasm of Animism and Dynamism soul and pulling out the dogmatic values :confused:

nechesh

14th January 2006, 03:12 PM

Hi Pusaka. Here's a link to the Javanese Alphabet.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/javanese.htm
Take note of the letter Dha. This alphabet dates back to the 4thC. It is certainly derivative of ancient Brahmi and so there is certainly a Vedic connection. But we have yet to find any physical evidence that the "modern" keris, with all it's present ricikan such as the Ron Dha, is older than, say, 14thC. So it seems likely that the Ron Dha was developed in Jawa at that time where regardless of Vedic influences, the Javanese language and alphabet was in full swing. Devanagari script was developed around the 11thC primarily to write Sanskrit from ancient Brahmi script. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/devanagari.htm
This early form of Devanagari was similar, but not exactly like the form with which you are familar.
As far as i know, the Ron Dha has always been related to the Javanese letter Dha in Jawa and the surrounding areas. Though there is clearly a resemblance to the symbol of the AUM i think this is probably just a very interesting coincidence, or perhaps synchonicity. I see no reason why this would be considered secret knowledge or why the Javanese would pretend this feature represented a Dha when it was really secretly the AUM. What is perhaps more occult is the intended meaning of the letter Dha in this circumstance. That might be a more valuable avenue of study.
None of this is to deny that the keris was first developed as weapon of a primarily Vedic culture. As other influences such as Islam moved into the area the keris symbolism evolved and changed. Stil, elements of Jawa's pre-vedic animistic culture persisted as well. The beliefs of the area can never be clearly defined as merely this or that. It is much more complex. :)

Pusaka

14th January 2006, 04:31 PM

I used a variant of Om which is not modern by any account. It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings. One thing for sure is that they have meaning and personally I believe it is a variant of Om, the name of god.

John

14th January 2006, 04:33 PM

Interesting, though the "dha" shown at the link does not seem to have a pronounced tail of an OM symbol. Still it's intriguing to find a probable Javanese alphabet on such a popular icon as keris yet to be have it's meaning decoded in it's country of origin? So the mystery remains unsolved...

nechesh

14th January 2006, 05:04 PM

It is difficult to say if the markings on the keris are Sanskrit or Javanese. Remembering that the Javanese alphabet would have been influenced by Sanskrit. If you chose the Javanese then the symbols are meaningless but if you chose the Sanskrit then there is meaning in those markings.

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese? :confused:

Pusaka

14th January 2006, 05:41 PM

Pusaka, you are certainly welcome to your personal beliefs, but the notion that this symbol is meaningless if it represents the Javanese Dha is somewhat arrogant on your behalf. Just because you are not aware of it's meaning does not imply that such meaning is nonexistent. Do you really think you have such a grasp of the Javanese culture to make such a statement?
Why do think it is difficult to say whether this "symbol" is Sanskrit or Javanese when the Javanese have been saying for centuries that it is indeed Javanese? :confused:

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

MABAGANI

14th January 2006, 05:42 PM

If a keris or kris form developed during an Islamic era and region, wouldn't it be considered a Muslim creation? We can make the general statement that the keris originated in Southeast Asia with Hindu/Budhist influences, but depending on certain forms, era and place, etc. wouldn't these variables dictate the specific designation of the creation?

Kiai Carita

14th January 2006, 05:58 PM

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

Hi Pusaka,

Remember that what Nechesh said that the ricikan on the greneng and janggut plus the kembang kacang, are relatively new in keris history. These ricikan appeared no earlier than the 12th century but more likely were created in the 14th century.

There are Jawanese explainations to these ricikan, including in Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi Keris. Not everything in Jawa is explained verbally, many things are meant to be understood through rasa -feeling and intuition. However if you accuse Jawanese of not understanding a venerated object of their culture, how do you explain your credibility to explain it?

I think that Mans' explanation is the best: that keris originated in Jawa in animistic times, and through time was influenced by Vedic culture, Chinese culture, Buddhist culture, Islamic culture and Western culture. Your explanation makes sense from one angle but from another angle (like the angle used by Neches) it is flawed. I once read an explanation from the point of view of the keris as a stabbing weapon which made perfect sense untill one remembered that the keris in Jawa was not primarily a physical weapon. Also there are many types of ricikan on the janggut, kembang kacang and the greneng.

Means that what ever our opinions on keris are, they are basically only our opinions. There is to much mystery in Jawa, let alone in the most mystical object from the culture to make definite assumptions.

Keep the good work on the keris study, just don't ignore what the jawanese have to say?

Warm salams to al,
KC

nechesh

14th January 2006, 07:24 PM

If the symbol is Javanese it is strange indeed that any Javanese person I asked what it meant they had no clue. There are many Javanese members in this forum and have they revealed what its meaning is? Its meaning is certainly not secret so I question why nobody seams to know the answer to what it actually means. If it is Javanese surely a Javanese person would understand it, but do they?
Using the Javanese alphabet you can account for only one letter, hardly a through explanation is it, what about the rest, can you explain that???

Let me make an analogy to another alphabet and culture for just a moment. In the Hebrew alphabet each letter has a specific meaning. Lets look at the letter Shin ("S" or "Sh"). The name for this letter actually means "tooth", but each letter in the Hebrew alphabet also has a numerical value, as with many other languages. The value for Shin is 300. The numerical value for the phrase Ruach Elohim (Spirit of God) is also 300, so in Qabalistic thinking Shin is equivalent. Therefore the letter Shin is also a symbol of the Spirit of God. A great deal can be represented in only one letter. I doubt the average non-orthodox Jew would be aware of this. Reformed Jews don't necessarily even learn Hebrew. Still, they consider themselves Jews and a part of that culture. So why would it be so surprising that a modern Javanese man, whose main language is Indonesian, not Javanese, who possibly doesn't even know the older language very well, who has rejected or forgotten or was never really taught the ways of the old keris culture, who possible sees it as just old superstition, would not understand the more occult meanings of the Javanese letter Dha in relation to the keris and the Ron Dha?

Pusaka

14th January 2006, 08:59 PM

I have added the letter dha into the picture for comparison. Personally I think the markings on the keris looks more like the Sanskrit then the Javanese. The letter dha is more symmetrical whilst the marking on the keris is clearly not. If it is the 7th letter of the Javanese alphabet then I guess that is significant, for all those that know what the number 7 represents ;)

Pusaka

14th January 2006, 09:14 PM

Looking at the mark in question next to the Sanskrit and the Javanese we can see that there is a closer resemblance to the Sanskrit. Actually very little resemblance to the Javanese dha(Sanskrit bottom, Javanese top)

RomaRana

14th January 2006, 10:01 PM

So why would it be so surprising that a modern Javanese man, whose main language is Indonesian, not Javanese, who possibly doesn't even know the older language very well, who has rejected or forgotten or was never really taught the ways of the old keris culture, who possible sees it as just old superstition, would not understand the more occult meanings of the Javanese letter Dha in relation to the keris and the Ron Dha?

That reminds me of Bonji in japanese swords. Bonji are debased Sanskrit inscriptions which have lost their meaning and are reproduced as good luck symbols devoid of much or their previous meaning.

nechesh

15th January 2006, 04:34 AM

So Pusaka, why do YOU think the Javanese refer to this feature as a Ron Dha and NOT a Ron AUM? Why, if it is indeed an AUM, do they hide the fact and pretend it is a Dha for all these years? Is there some kind of great Javanese conspiracy that we don't know about?
AGAIN, i must point out that you are comparing a relatively modern Sanskrit script that was not used in Jawa in the 14thC to features on a VERY modern keris blade when you are trying to establish a theory of ORIGIN for features that were developed for the keris 700 years ago. And these original Ron Dha did NOT look the same as the features you are showing us on this 21st century blade. So none of your illustrations really prove anything about the origins of the Ron Dha on the keris. Is none of this getting through to you?
Like i say, i like your creative thinking, but i think your basis is flawed and therefore your conclusion as well. You can't just keep saying i think it looks more like an AUM so it is, especially when you are looking at a new keris. I hope you continue asking these questions, but don't fool yourself into believing you have all the answers already or all your creative thinking will be for nought.

John

15th January 2006, 06:34 AM

Nechesh, why don't you substantiate further with examples of some initial examples of 14th C Ron Dhas patterns and pin point how recent the OM symbols Pusaka has illustrated to enlighten us more. Quite frankly I personally know of one sanskrit OM symbol which I've no idea has been around for how long. And what would the OM character around the 14th C look like? When is/are the earliest recorded references to the "dha" on keris you could point us to?

I've noticed you've quite often drawn your arguments based on AM's info/research (tell me if otherwise) but personally I'll at this juncture treat Pusaka's (and others) arguments with equal respect and won't "rubbishing" them with your seemingly perennial "high pitch" tones until the riddle is conclusively resolved but like some say, we may never know for sure...

And Pusaka, I commend your composure and civility.

Pusaka

15th January 2006, 02:21 PM

Nechesh, calm down, you’re a very angry person, it’s only a damn forum debate, relax. I notice that you go out of your way to make little of anything I say, but that’s fine.
As I said before is the symbol I used for Om really modern?

Rick

15th January 2006, 03:35 PM

Pusaka don't make public judgements on another person's demeanor . I think that you need to answer Nechesh's questions and he needs to answer yours and John's; that will allow the debate to continue in a civilised manner .

If this thread devolves into unpleasantness I'll close it ; everyone take a deep breath count to ten and resume .

nechesh

15th January 2006, 03:51 PM

A few things first Pusaka:
1. I am not at all angry, though maybe a little frustrated that you continue to put forth your theory with very little evidence as if it is an absolute. If you could show me an illusration of an AUM used in 14thC Jawa and then compare that to the earliest of Ron Dha known on keris i would be willing to give more weight to your aurguement.
2. I am not going "out of my way" to make little of everything you say. I am merely presently my own logical arguement to your theories based on what little i personally know about the keris. I would also love to solve this mystery. I don't know all the answers either, but i would like us to come as close as possible to the right conclusion based on solid evidence and observations. It may, as John suggests, remain a mystery. As i have said before, and will again, i like the way you think.This was a sincere comment, really. I actually think you are on the right track. I hope you will continue your research. I just think you have taken a slight wrong turn and if you think you are there already you are liable to miss something. Please don't take my diagreements with you personally. I am only trying to help you and all of us solve this mystery together. This is an academic discussion, not a personal one.
John, i find your ability to determine the sound pitch of internet writing astonishing. ;) Once again, i am merely presenting counter arguement. It wouldn't do us very well if everytime someone presented a theory that didn't quite ring true with us that we just threw up our hands and decided to go along with it. Repetition of an idea does not make it true. Remember WMDs? :rolleyes: My biggest complaint about Pusaka's theory is that he is using a 20thC keris w/ a 19thC Ron Dha form compared to a relatively recent AUM symbol to establish the origin of a symbolic keris feature that first appeared in a different form 600 yrs. ago. This is just bad research. I am sorry that i do not have any examples of the style of AUM symbol used in 14thC Jawa, but ALL these things have changed and evolved over the centuries. It would be wonderful if someone could find an authenticated example. I have, however, attached a drawing first sketched by Empu Suparman of the differences between Ron Dha of different periods of keris. It appeared, i believe, in a 1990 Knife Magazine article by, yes, Alan Maisey. You are correct that i do base a great deal of my understanding of the keris on Alan's writings and guidance. Still, i do have a mind of my own and we have not always agreed on all points keris. :)

Pusaka

15th January 2006, 05:11 PM

To be honest nechesh I personally can see very little difference between the images you posted, just the characters are more defined in some then others yet they are still the same characters in all.

Secondly I don’t know why you think the Om symbol is modern, its my understanding that the symbol relates to Brahmi text which makes it ancient indeed. I will see if I can contact someone who will clear this up.

Can you please post the original illustration so that I may look at them in detail.

nechesh

15th January 2006, 05:20 PM

Quite frankly I personally know of one sanskrit OM symbol which I've no idea has been around for how long.

BTW John, Pusaka has already shown us 3 different AUM symbols, of which only one seems to fit fully into his comparison with 19thC style Ron Dha.

nechesh

15th January 2006, 05:29 PM

Sorry Pusaka, this is the only illustration i have of the various Ron Dhas. I am surprised that you can not see that only the Surakarta Ron Dha fits clearly into your theory for the AUM.
The Brahmi alphabet looks very different from the Sanskrit used in any of your AUM illustrations:
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/brahmi.htm

Pusaka

15th January 2006, 06:48 PM

Om can be written in many ways, in its most simple form it looks like the number 3. The last image is how Om is written in modern Indonesia (far right)

Pusaka

15th January 2006, 08:13 PM

If we examine the Indonesian symbol for Om we will find something very interesting. In fig 1 we have the symbol for Om, In fig 2 we have removed one of the characters and now we have the Indonesian symbol for Ong (one holy letter). What is interesting about Ong is that it is composed of the character for 3 but with an Ulu candra (crown) added to the top to signify it is holy i.e. the holy three. This is very similar to the Indonesian Mang (Holy letter). In fig 3 we have removed the Ulu candra and we are left with the character for 3. Three is holy in many religions for example the holy trinity in the Christian religion, in effect the 3 aspects of god. It is interesting that the character for 3 is the bases for the Om (symbol of god). Finally in fig 4 we have put the remaining characters side by side and we have a very interesting pattern when it is related to the markings on the Keris. We find that it fits all the illustrations that nechesh posted.

nechesh

15th January 2006, 09:37 PM

Interesting. Firstly, the final figure (4) which you claim is all the remaining figures of the Indonesian OM laid side by side does NOT fit all the figures of Ron Dha that i posted, it only fits the Surakarta Ron Dha. Look carefully. Fig. 4 shows 2 waves that face away from each other (back to back) and one wave facing inward on the right with a small peak in the middle. This small peak only exists on the Surakarta example in this sequence.
It seems a bit of a stretch for me to disassemble a symbol and piece it back together in a way that is no longer that symbol and still maintain that it holds the same meaning. In the end, lines are merely that, just lines, and if we try hard enough i am sure we can come up with a number of different letters or symbols that we can reconstruct to resemble the Ron Dha. I am afraid i neeed a little bit more than that to be swayed in your direction. If i remove the foot off an "E" it becomes an "F", if i invert a "W" it becomes an "M", if i turn an "N" on it's side it becomes a "Z". But what symbolic relationship do these letters have with one another? They have completely different meanings and intentions when viewed from different perspectives.
BTW, i believe the language and alphabet you are using in this last post might be Balinese, not Indonesian.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/balinese.htm
The general Indonesian language is Bahasa and is usually written in the Latin alphabet. This is what "unites" all the islands in that nation with a common language. Balinese, of course, has the same Brahmi roots that all these other alphabets we have been discussing do, so we will see similarities in forms, but since it is generally accepted (though new theories could pop up :) ) that the keris as we are discussing it (w/Ron Dha) originated in Jawa and migrated to Bali it also seems likely that the origins of the Ron Dha also lie in Jawa, so comparisons of the Ron Dha to the Balinese alphabet makes no sense.

Pusaka

15th January 2006, 10:21 PM

Personally I am satisfied that the markings relate to the Om symbol and have the same meaning, this is my own personal belief so I am not saying you must agree. Im sure there is very little difference between a Javanese Om symbol and a Balinese Om symbol. We can see relationships in them all.

nechesh

15th January 2006, 10:27 PM

John, you are absolutely right. And to Pusaka, my apologies for suggesting you were being arrogant to assume that if you saw no meaning in something that it simply doesn't exist. That was a judgement on my part and may very well have been an incorrect one. Sometimes we hit the enter key before we completely think things through. :o
Still John, your post here seems like something best dealt with in PM as i think we are back on the academic track now and i think finger pointing will only tend to derail that. Also, Pusaka seems the kind of chap who is very capable of fighting his own battles. :) Yes, i was guilty as well, and for that i am sorry. I had already PMed Pusaka to say as much and offer him help in his studies. Let's move on, shall we? :)

MABAGANI

16th January 2006, 06:17 AM

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm :)

Sang Keris

16th January 2006, 01:21 PM

Pusaka ( D C ) , i really don't care about the discussion , but please DO NOT use my keris picture for model without permission ...!

Spunjer

16th January 2006, 01:31 PM

thanks for the link, mabagani!

Pusaka

16th January 2006, 01:35 PM

Sorry Sang (W H) I did not think you would mind since you post them on ebay often, but sorry I should have asked you first. You know I sent you an email but you did not respond.

Mans

16th January 2006, 01:42 PM

Hi Dear all,

Indeed that the origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. They believed that the keris came from along time ago and they didn’t want to prove it. They just believed that as a culture.

In the world of the Jawanese keris, old keris from Budha era is very simple. It has no Kembang Kacang, Greneng or Ron Dha. Usually just Sogokan and Kruwingan. Then, on Kediri and Singosari period (11th-13th century), the keris made with more detail. Some ricikans as the features of the keris to be made. The religion of Singosari and Kediri people are Hindu and Budha. On the Majapahit till Mataram period (13th-19th century), the keris made with more complete. After Majapahit period, the Islamic culture has beginning.

So, we knew that the keris came without Kembang Kacang and Ron Dha, just simple shape, but in the other side, some keris has it with more detail ricikans like Ron Dha, Greneng, Sogokan, Blumbungan, Kembang Kacang, ect.. .. which has many senses, reasons, and can be interpretated as anything from each histories or backgrounds. Also the keris influenced by many religions and cultures on the way of the keris it self.

So, why we just talking about the Ron Dha and didn’t give argumentations about the other ricikans ? If we want to debate just about the ricikans, we must talking about the another ricikans too as the overwhole aspects on the keris it self. Then, how if we talk about the Sogokan or Blumbungan ? Where it came from ? Or which the religions has influenced this ricikans ? So, if the RonDha and Kembang Kacang or Greneng just stand alone, it can’t be used to represent where the keris from or the period of the keris, also which the religious or culture which influenced the keris.

Pusaka posted the pictures from New Balinese Keris which made with complete ricikans. I think it can’t be used to represent the old keris. And now, I posted the keris from Old period (before 10th century) till Mataram period (about 18th century). I hope useful to continuing this discussion.

Regards,

Mans.

Note :
Pusaka, you said that the pictures (the Balinese keris) which you used on this thread is for eBay ((For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example)) . I didn’t think so, because this keris has never listed in eBay. I knew the man who has this keris. He said that he send you the pictures via P.M. Did you has permission from him before ? Sorry, just to clarification your wrote.

Ups, Sang Keris has told it :D :D

Pusaka

16th January 2006, 02:01 PM

VANDOO

16th January 2006, 04:04 PM

AS WITH ALL DISCUSSIONS PERTAINING TO THE KERIS/KRIS THERE IS MUCH CONTROVERSY AND IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO JUST FOCUS ON ONE ASPECT IN ITS EVOLUTION. THE KERIS CONTINUES TO EVOLVE TODAY BUT I THINK THE MORE RECENT CHANGES HAVE LESS TO DO WITH SPIRITUAL AND MAGICAL MATTERS AS THEY DID IN OLD TIMES. I WOULD THERORIZE THAT THE FIRST BIG CHANGE IN THE EVOLUTION OF THE KERIS WAS THE SEPARATION OF THE GANJA FROM THE BLADE AS IT IS VERY LIKELY THAT THE FIRST KERIS HAD ONLY A FAIRLY SIMPLE ONE PIECE BLADE. THIS PROBABLY CAME ABOUT DUE TO SOME SPIRITUAL OR MAGICAL BELIEF, I COULD MAKE MANY GUESSES AS TO WHY THIS WAS DONE, BUT AS THEY COULD NEVER BE PROVEN AND WOULD ONLY MUDDY THE WATER I WILL REFRAIN. :D
THE LATER MODIFICATIONS TO THE BLADE COULD HAVE BEEN DONE FOR MANY REASONS, 1. TO INDICATE THE TRIBE OR EMPIRE. 2. TAILSMANIC PROTECTION 3. TO SHOW REVERENCE TO A CERTIAN DIETY AND GAIN THEIR PROTECTION AND POWER. THERE ARE MANY POSSIBILITYS, BUT I DON'T THINK IT WAS DONE JUST FOR DECORATION OR TO ADD TO THE EFFECTIVE FIGHTING QUALITYS OF THE KERIS.

QUESTIONS :confused: WHERE IS THE POWER OF THE KERIS SAID TO RESIDE IN THE BLADE OR THE GANJA?
IF THE POWER IS IN THE BLADE WOULD THE GANJA BE THERE TO PROTECT THE WIELDER FROM THAT POWER OR TO CONTROL IT. ?

SO MANY QUESTIONS AND SO LITTLE OLD DOCUMENTED INFORMATION! :rolleyes:

Mans

16th January 2006, 04:15 PM

Nice photos Mans but because the markings are so worn its quite difficult to know what the markings on some of them would have looked like originally.

I would be more then happy to hear other peoples theory’s about the meaning of the marks. If you do think it just represents a letter then explain its meaning.

Thanks Pusaka,
I think some forumities has told about the meaning of the marks on the keris.
In here, I just want to give the example of the keris from the old and distinguishing with the keris from next period. Why the old keris made with no ricikans as the keris from next generations :confused: Just the simple shape. Perhaps because on old period, their appreciation about the art or philosophy just like that :confused: Thats because perhaps, they just want the Tuah or something else in the Anmism and Dynamism faith.

So, if we want to know from where the keris, when it made, or which the culture or religions has influenced, we must know about the keris as overwhole aspects (Jawa = Pasikutan). Specifically on the iron, pamor and technique of forging. Not just the Dha which you try to analyzed. Its just the one aspect.

We can to keep changing some symbols or numeral to get the matching with the Ricikan on the keris. But how with another ricikans which has no compatible with any symbols like Ada-Ada or Kruwingan or Sogokan :confused:

So, I didn't think so that your theory about the Dha and Greneng can be used to give the reason that the keris came from India, Indonesia or somewhere else. Many region has self histories. So that why if we want to learn the keris, we must put it on the clear locus and focus.

For another example : http://www.diskusi.fotopic.net/c534452.html
The two keris at there came from Singosari (small) and Bangkinang (Riau / Sumatera). Its has different lenght, the iron forge ect, but also has similarities. So, can we analyzed that just from Ricikans ? I didn't think so. We can analyze more clear if we know about the journey of Singosari people to Sumatera and the other hand at past.

So, go back to Antonio questions, perhaps any forumities known the journey of Moro or Moslem people at there, where and where :confused: Did they has connections with India or Indonesia or etc :confused: Also we can connecting the story by period.

I just know (in the Jawanese history) that Sriwijaya Kingdom at Palembang and Majapahit Kingdom at East Jawa has the region till Moro about 9th century and 14th century. So, can we said that the Sriwijaya and Majapahit influencing the Moro Keris ? Then cultures of the Moro people continuing their appreciations about the art of the keris till now (free from religion values) :confused:

MABAGANI

16th January 2006, 06:11 PM

As mentioned, from the proto keris, forms branch off depending on the timeline and region, so it would be interesting to see a family tree with the various keris and kris to get a clearer understanding when symbols and types took place. In regards to the Moro kris, evidence from artifacts and written materials reveal ties to Indian culture and parallel interconnection to Indonesian kingdoms. Its also important to take in account cultural relationships to China throughout Moro history. In the early 15th century Sulu "kings" were recognized by Chinese royals when an entourage paid a visit to the mainland. Of interest, there is a village in China that trace their heritage to the early kings, one of the kings died on the voyage, some of the relatives stayed behind and the following generations to this day still take care of the tomb of their ancestor. The conversion to Islam in Mindanao and Sulu as well as the parts of the Visayas and Luzon began in the mid 15th and 16th centuries. From the early proto keris two distinct forms develop into what we call here the kris and the barung swords in the Moro regions.
http://www.geocities.com/sinupan/batara.htm
http://www.china-sd.net/eng/sdtravel/scenery/26.asp
http://www.bangsamoro.info/uploads/photos/26.jpg

BSMStar

16th January 2006, 07:41 PM

Ok Pusaka.... you have sold me, that at the very least... you theory is worthy of further research. After all gentlemen, it is a theory and as a theory, worthy of testing. ;)

Finding the earliest example of this style Greneng will give you an approximate "date" or date of influence. While not an absolute "test," it may give a clue if it occurred before of after the Hindu influence.

It may be a starting point. :)

Pusaka

16th January 2006, 11:04 PM

nechesh

17th January 2006, 12:04 AM

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

Pusaka, to answer your first question, yes, the Javanese (not Indonesian) alphabet and Sanskrit do seem to have some common forms in their alphabets.
In terms of your second question, i don't think you have really met much resistance with your theory that the Javanese Mojopahit empire was linked to Indian influences. My argument was over the specificity of you AUM claim. I agree with you that the roots of the keris most probably lie in India. But that is just the roots. The ricikan that we have been discussing doesn't appear until sometime around the 14thC, so they were most probably developed in Jawa, not India. But the influences seem to be clearly there.

nechesh

17th January 2006, 03:08 AM

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm :)

Mabagani, thank you for this very interesting website. It is worth viewing just for the wonderful illustration at the bottom of the page. One thing i noticed as i look through each illustration that was driven home every time i came to a grouping of keris was just how unique the form of the keris is. It is unlike ANY of the displayed Indian weapon forms. It is interesting, however to see a feature that IS similar to the keris sogokan on these Indian spearheads, but the asymetric blade and seperate gonjo are features i have seen no where else.

Ian

17th January 2006, 04:19 AM

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm :)
Thanks for the link. This collection of material has had several incarnations over the last six years or so. It has popped up with at least three or four different URLs to my knowledge, tending to disappear each time after a few months. So catch it while you can -- a lot of scans, many from Egerton, Stone, and other well known sources.

Ian.

MABAGANI

17th January 2006, 05:35 AM

I stumbled across the site searching for early Indian edged weaponry, interesting how the author writes about the influence and continuity of arms and armour through the ages by trade and cultural exchange. Anyone know of sites that show the other weaponry besides keris in the bas reliefs from Southeast Asian ruins? I'd like to compare later forms of blades that may have evolved from ancient periods as the of forging process advanced or changed over time.
http://www.borobudur.tv/temple_index.htm
http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/yogyakarta/prambananindex.htm

Pusaka

17th January 2006, 07:23 PM

In the Rig Veda Indras thunderbolt weapon is described. It has a notched surface. It is firmly held in Indras hands. It is sthavira (stable) and Dgarnssi (durable). It is a fatal weapon made of a metal called Ayas.
In relation the quote below taken from:

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/t_pr/t_pr_book_projects.htm

• Rigveda mentions ayas about 10 times – e.g. Indra's horse had the same color as asay. (Assumed to be iron; but Tripathi disagrees because there is also Krishna-ayas, etc in texts.) Also, was iron found in neighboring countries, hence assumed to be from there.
• Refuting the above, Tripathi finds that iron in India is much earlier. Baluchistan cemeteries have iron objects. Some earlier iron in western Asia was meteorite material sculptured as rock/stone carvings, and with no metallurgical processing at all.

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.
Such daggers would have been manufactured for ritual use and it’s probable that they were quite rare. I don’t think that they would have been used for fighting or put on display every day but where probably only used special rituals.
Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

Rick

17th January 2006, 09:43 PM

Pusaka

17th January 2006, 10:26 PM

Indra is a deity ; how can we make assumptions about the composition of what a deity holds ? :confused:

A 'Pusaka' is a cherished heirloom passed on from generation to generation within a family be they rich or poor .
A Pusaka is not necessarily a keris it is a descriptive term ; it can be many other objects .

Rick, the Rig Veda tells us that the weapon is made from Ayas, its not an assumption. If indeed Ayas is meteorite iron then we are talking about a blade made from meteorite iron.

About the pusaka keris, I was simply trying to make the point that there is a difference between a keris you wear everyday and a keris pusaka.

Rick

17th January 2006, 11:12 PM

The bible tells us that Jonah was swallowed by a whale and Jesus walked on water .
Am I to take this literally ?
I need a little more concrete evidence myself .
Also we are now back to the meteorite iron thing .
Now I won't contest that the keris is descended from Hindu weaponry ; it makes logical sense .
For the rest I personally need more than religious allegory .

As for the pusaka keris ; it does not necessarily have magic power ; rather it may just be an important family heirloom .

MABAGANI

18th January 2006, 01:37 AM

re: Deities in Hinduism and Buddhism, "swords represent cutting ignorance but to someone unfamiliar with the symbolism, it could represent some sort of violence. A sword is a symbol of enlightenment used to destroy ignorance which is the enemy of liberation from the bonds of wordly attachments." In regards to Indra and his thunderbolts, aren't they a metaphor for a meteoric weapon coming from the heavens as opposed to an actual weapon which no mortal could possess? unless they had reached the same spiritual realm, of course?

Kiai Carita

18th January 2006, 04:14 AM

Is it possible that the Indonesian dha is derived from Sanskrit?

Why does Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo trace his linage back to the Indian Majapahit Empire? Does this not alone suggest that India played an important role in the history of keris?

Hi there Pusaka,

The Majapahit Empire was Jawanese not Indian and although it was influenced by India and Hinduism it also took influence from Buddhism and China. Islamic settlements were also present in the Majapahit capital. Long before Majapahit the kings in Jawa had declared that Syiwa and Buddha are the same and they created a new syncretic religion based on this idea.

Cheers,
KC

MABAGANI

18th January 2006, 11:17 AM

If one takes the Indra stories literally, the train of thought goes that they may have been extraterrestrial beings or from past lost civilizations before the great flood. That's pre present day human history as we know it, so how would that fit into the possible OM theory and Majapahit to modern keris timeline? :eek:

nechesh

18th January 2006, 02:08 PM

Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

Pusaka, one of the authors i recommended to you in my last PM, Margaret Wiemer, wrote an excellent book called "Visible and Invisible Realms" which is essential reading for the understanding of keris pusaka. Indian influences not withstanding, i believe that you might find that the idea of pusaka is a more indigenious one to the Indonesian area. Also you will find that a great many powerful pusaka are completely unadorned and simple looking blades.

BSMStar

18th January 2006, 07:01 PM

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.

Pusaka, I would be careful at jumping to conclusions, just because meteoritic iron contains nickel, that nickel content alone will "retard" rusting.

Pictures of a Kansas Pallasite (see thread Meteor in the Raw) have shown up from time to time... the small sample I have in my collection has completely rusted away since purchasing it. I also have a sizable chunk of Canyon Diablo (Meteor Crater), an Iron (coarse octahedrite), it actually contains a mineral that will accelerate rusting of the iron when expose to the atmosphere. It is not a pretty thing. Meteorites are not "stainless steel" just because they contain nickel and the iron component will readily rust (if unprotected), even when forged into a blade.

Ataxites contain the highest nickel content (around 16% nickel), I would like to see one that does not rust like any other iron meteorite.
Octahedrites (about 7 to 10% nickel)
Hexahedrites (about 4 to 7% nickel)

Just talk with anyone that trys to protect their meteorite imvestment. It is a challenge.

Federico

19th January 2006, 12:56 AM

Oh my, this thread has sure branched from the meaning of (to borrow a keris term) the Rhon Dha on a Moro kris (not keris) to the Indian influences and as is asserted by one forumite, Indian origin of the keris. Ok, so Im jumping back to talking about PI, so mainly kris.

At least for me, I am still partial to the idea that the keris (which later evolves into the kris) came to PI along with Islam (not necessarily the full blown conversion of native populations but rather the early probings of muslim missionaries and traders I feel would be sufficient to bring its presence into the consciousness of Filipinos). Now, while I know it is often asserted that the Javanese empires extended into PI, thus bringing a pre-islamic keris culture into the islands, in other texts Ive read (Im forgetting the names right now) Javanese influence fell short of the totality of PI (eg. some influence on the Southern islands but little to no presence in the North such as Luzon). Does anyone have a good, contemporary book or link that can illustrate the Javanese empires encompassing the Philippines? I know I was surprised when in a class, the text we were using (I believe published in 2004) cut the Javanese reach off before it hit PI. I know that there have been movements in PI Universities to de-emphasize regional influences on early PI history for political reasons, and so dont know if this occurence was a product of politics or is the most current research (while we are limited in researching weapons, at least in academia there is strong emphasis on staying with current research). So any points in the direction of a book that can illustrate the presence of the Javanese empire in PI would be appreciated.

Ok, now since I was talking about why I still am fond of the notion of the keris travelling into PI with Islam, I jumped off that topic, so Ill go back. How far into PI can we really find examples of keris or keris like objects? In Scott's book Barangay, he talks about Visayan and Southern Philippine weaponry, and notes that keris like weapons are found in both, but that the keris are better made in the South. I dont remember for sure if he mentions any presence in the North, but I seem to think that he did not (ok Im being lazy Im tired and dont feel like re-hitting the books at this moment before I get this thought out). So my question is, where can we find keris like weapons (either in text but pics would be awesome) in PI (eg. just the south and central PI or more widespread), and from what time period (I know there are Luzon kris made for the Katipunan but then the Katipunan dredged alot of their history/practices from all over which would not be applicable in a pre-Spanish PI)? At least to me, Scotts descriptions could still be in fitting with a Islamic introduction, as (depending on who you read) there is some merit to the fact that at least on Spanish arrival there were the beginnings of some Islamic inroads into Visayan regions. It would be interesting to compare where the kris form is found, and if there were ever Islamic colonies/missionaries/traders in that region at that time. Oh well...as usual Ive probably made no sense, I really gotta learn to check the forums when I am not super tired. :D

ps.

I am only talking about PI, and not the origins of keris in general.

LabanTayo

19th January 2006, 03:54 AM

Malay inluence in Pamapanga (Province north of Manila).

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~camiling/malay.html

Especially look at the comparison of the word Sundang and Kampilan.

A part of my family is Kapampangan and I remember them saying they are decendants of Malays.

Kapampangan word for sword = Palang

In the PI, L and R are interchangable.

Palang = Parang

Although you say Javanese culture didnt spread that far north, at least Malay culture did, and they had keris too.
I know theres more to research on my end, but thats all for now.

I just found this:

"The ancestors of the Kampampangans came from the Madjapahit Empire at the Malang Region in Central Java. They came with the second wave of Malayan migration - the last of the three prehistoric migrations that took place in the Philippines between 300 to 200 B.C.. These immigrants, led by the Prince Balagtas, settled along the costal areas of Luzon. These areas became the nucleus of the so-called Pampanga Empire, established and consolidated from 1335 to 1400 by Prince Balagtas, the first Pampango sovereign. This empire included all areas in Luzon from Manila up to Cagayan in the north. The coming of the Spaniards led to the eventual disintegration and diminution (decrease) of his empire. "

http://www.geocities.com/pilipinoinjapan/pampanga_Philippines.html

Federico

19th January 2006, 06:41 AM

Thanks for the links. Small world, a good portion of my family on my mother's side is Kapampangan as well. I guess I should be surprised, there are alot of Kapampangans as well.

I noticed the links are still siding with the older wave theory of settlement in PI (eg. native groups first displaced by Indonesians pushing the natives deeper into the interior and then finally displaced by Malays) vs the land bridge theory UP has been pushing in recent years (native groups originally came across a land bridge during the ice age, and it was these peoples who influenced by regional cultures). I gotta admit Ive always preferred the wave theory, as at least to me it explained the commonalities between so many PI dialects and Malay dialects. I know that linguists only attribute so much similarity to regional cultural diffusion when comparing common root words, but since Im not a trained linguist Im not sure how the conventions work for establishing commonality between groups (Ruel you out there). Anyways, its also amazing though how much education, even in early US occupied PI influenced many filipinos to their views of ancestry. I know my Lolo used to joke he was from Sumatra (he was a big history buff). Oh well, I know that the standard in academia is to prefer the most current work on a subject, but I dunno how I feel about the peer review that has been done on the issue of the land bridge, if politics hasnt taken precedence over academic stringency. Anyways, I did not say that there was no influence in Northern PI, but rather it was limited (not present in all areas such as deep mountains), I know others have theorized about the influence of Islamic settlements on Kapampangan culture. Being a devils advocate, I wonder how much of that influence could explain spill over. I suppose I may be drawing fine lines, between influence (eg. from the periphery in the form of traders and limited colonies) vs full blown inclusion in regional Empires. Oh well, just thinking out loud, so to speak.
Malay inluence in Pamapanga (Province north of Manila).

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~camiling/malay.html

Especially look at the comparison of the word Sundang and Kampilan.

A part of my family is Kapampangan and I remember them saying they are decendants of Malays.

Kapampangan word for sword = Palang

In the PI, L and R are interchangable.

Palang = Parang

Although you say Javanese culture didnt spread that far north, at least Malay culture did, and they had keris too.
I know theres more to research on my end, but thats all for now.

I just found this:

"The ancestors of the Kampampangans came from the Madjapahit Empire at the Malang Region in Central Java. They came with the second wave of Malayan migration - the last of the three prehistoric migrations that took place in the Philippines between 300 to 200 B.C.. These immigrants, led by the Prince Balagtas, settled along the costal areas of Luzon. These areas became the nucleus of the so-called Pampanga Empire, established and consolidated from 1335 to 1400 by Prince Balagtas, the first Pampango sovereign. This empire included all areas in Luzon from Manila up to Cagayan in the north. The coming of the Spaniards led to the eventual disintegration and diminution (decrease) of his empire. "

http://www.geocities.com/pilipinoinjapan/pampanga_Philippines.html

MABAGANI

19th January 2006, 07:44 AM

So any points in the direction of a book that can illustrate the presence of the Javanese empire in PI would be appreciated.

A good read is the book by Patanne, E. P., "The Philippines in the World of Southeast Asia: A Cultural History". The more recent discovery and study of the "Laguna copper plate" dated 900AD tends to support connection to Java and cause a reexamination of theories regarding trade and influence, imho, I'd find it difficult to expect the Philippines to be kept in a vacuum not having the keris until Muslim traders arrive, while other cultural pre Islamic exchanges occur in the form of literature, language, artifacts, and religion, etc. The Philippines is unique in that its positioned in the sea trade route between China and Java or in a larger view, Southeast Asia.

LabanTayo

19th January 2006, 04:13 PM

Federico,
With Clark AF Base in Angeles, alot of Kapampangans were brought over through marriage. My mothers family is from Quezon City, but some moved to Arayat back in the 60's and married Kapampangans. Its funny that the whole family speaks a mix of Tagalog (Grandmother), Illokano (Grandfather) and Kapampangan (some Aunts and Uncles). There are some words I thought were Tagalog and found out they were Kapampangan and vice versa. No wonder I always got funny looks in Manila when I would speak to people.

Rick

19th January 2006, 05:38 PM

About :
http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm

LabanTayo

19th January 2006, 08:10 PM

In William Scott's book, Barangay, he mentions that Lubao and another city in Pampanga, were Moro forts when the Spanish arrived. Another piece stating an Islamic/Malay presence north of the Visayas.

BSMStar

19th January 2006, 08:29 PM

About :
http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm

A great link Rick!!!! And a great discovery!!!! :)

Just when someone claims to see the edge of darkness, someone fines another candle! ;)

Federico

19th January 2006, 09:55 PM

Thanks for the book recommendation Mabagani, will get a copy asap. Also, thanks for the link Rick, great stuff. It will be interesting to see how this will change academic thought on the subject. I know Ive been very uncomfortable with the whole land bridge theory, for much of the same reasons as Mabagani. I know it is politically appealing, PI as having its own unique cultural origins non-dependent/influenced by foreign groups, but then the current PI map as a whole is such an artificial creation.

Labantayo, I think we are on the same line on Malay presence in Luzon. Scott speaks of early settlements in the area, I believe Majul speaks on their Islamic origins and connections to other regional Sultanates. Now where I think we are having some mis-understanding is that earlier, when I was speaking of Javanese imperical inclusion, I was refering to PI's inclusion as part of the Javanese Majahapit empire. I do not feel that a few settlements, that at least some scholars have hinted at having possible Islamic origins (which would postdate the Majahapit Empire), necessarily proves that we were part of the Majahapit empire. Particularly since they are limited, eg. they do not cover all of Luzon, and are more localized to certain areas, I dont necessarily feel that a later Islamic colonial explanation for their occurence (particularly by the 16th century, the time in which Scott is referring) is unreasonable. If we were part of the Majahapit empire, I would imagine that a couple hundred years of inclusion would spread the influence further into the island. Though I suppose if we used the end date of the empire, then we could argue for an explanation of limited presence, but then I feel we come in conflict with the possible Islamic influences on these settlements. Oh well, anyways I just want to clarify once more, I never said there was no Malay influence on Luzon, but was rather questioning whether that influence constituted our inclusion in the Majahapit empire. Hmm...that was rather long winded and convoluted, oh well I suppose whats new from me. :D