Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.

[Cerjak]

Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.
Hi everybody
I hope somebody could be able to tell me more about this quiet big blunderbuss. I don’t know in which language the marks in the stock are. The total size is around 125 cm for around 6 KG.
I Guess it was a English flintlock blunderbuss who was turn into percussion.
IT will be fantastic is someone will be able to translate those marks.
Best regards

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

still need help to translate or ID the marks .
I hope it will solved....

[VVV]

I don't know anything of blunderbusses.

But the motifs are Islamic talismans and the rattan bindings resembles those usually found on the Dayak mandau.
So my guess is that it might come from the Banjarmasin area in south Borneo where both these features are common.

Michael

[Dom]

the motifs are Islamic talismans Hi
YES, it's Islamic talismanic writing, but, through Arabic language,
means nothing intelligible :shrug:
by vocation, everything related to magic is often very obscure
for the not initiated :p

à +

Dom

[TribalBlades]

i can read it and it is in arabic. but i can read only the individual characters because the words dont make sense. i think the word in the centre is similar to شيطان which means "devil" / satan.

but i am not sure. it is just a possible answer.

[VVV]

Dom,

Maybe the writing is based on simiya' (the art where the letters represent mathematical values of hidden words, names etc.)?

Michael

[Maurice]

Wow. I like this blunderbuss a lot!
Very cool. I would say Banjarmasin area also as Michael stated, as there were a lot of Blunderbusses used in the Banjarmasin war. The knots indeed looks like dayak knots used to hold the two slabs of wood of the scabbard together.

I've attached an image of some blunderbusses on a litograph of (about) 1881, Bronbeek museum Arnhem.


Thanks for sharing!
Maurice

[kahnjar1]

Hi Cerjak,
I assume that there are no marks on either the lock or the barrel? The style of the weapon LOOKS British with added script and raffia barrel bands, but without any proof marks it is guesswork. The hammer looks way too rough for a British piece but it could have been replaced at some stage.
Sorry can't be of more help.
Regards Stuart

[asomotif]

Wow ! lovely piece.

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?

Best regards,
Willem

[VVV]

i can read it and it is in arabic. but i can read only the individual characters because the words dont make sense. i think the word in the centre is similar to شيطان which means "devil" / satan.

but i am not sure. it is just a possible answer.

It's not Satan/Iblis etc. but related to djinns etc. being the 7 seals of Solomon.
See the related thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16496

Michael

[Cerjak]

I have to says that his discussion forum is really fantastic and I there is in this place so much knowledge ,Michael I have really appreciate your precious help ,I was not expect this documentation about pan-Islamic talismanic motifs and I can’t thank you enough for your answer. I was afraid that all those signs was without significations and now I will appreciate much more this Blunderbuss.

kind regards

Cerjak

[archer]

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve

[kahnjar1]

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve
AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE KEY TO THE ORIGINAL ORIGIN WOULD BE ANY PROOF MARKS, EITHER ON THE VISIBLE PARTS OF THE BREECH AREA OF THE BARREL, OR THEY COULD BE UNDERNEATH. SINCE THE BANDS ARE RATTAN OR RAFFIA IT WOULD BE A DELICATE OPERATION TO REMOVE THEM SO THAT THE BARREL CAN BE LIFTED.
ONE FURTHER POSSIBILITY IS THAT THERE COULD BE MARKS INSIDE THE LOCK.
STU

[Cerjak]

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve
dear steeve

Yes I confirm you it was previously a flintlock blunderbluss.
Kind regards

cerjak

[asomotif]

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?
Best regards,
Willem

small reminder. maybe the decoration can indicate a certain origin :shrug:

[asomotif]

I found this talismanic inscription on a website with Aceh swords.
In this case it is part of a peudeung which was also discussed onthis forum once.

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

[Cerjak]

Wow ! lovely piece.

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?

Best regards,
Willem
Dear Willen

Thank you very much for this very interesting link ,I will try to take some beteer pics from the top barrel

Regards
Cerjak

[Cerjak]

barrel pics

[kai]

The decoration does not look like Aceh IMHO.

I'm with Michael and Maurice and also believe this blunderbuss got modified/utilized in the Banjar/Negara region.

Regards,
Kai

[asomotif]

The decoration does not look like Aceh IMHO.

I'm with Michael and Maurice and also believe this blunderbuss got modified/utilized in the Banjar/Negara region.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

The decoration does not look Banjar/negara to me neither.
Does it to you ?

I hope that someone can check the writting and confirm or rule out jawi. :shrug:

[asomotif]

barrel pics

oops, almost forgot the big WOW :eek: for the decoration.

Envy is turning to a new shade of green here ;) :D

Best regards,
Willem

[mohd]

Hi Willem, got your email.
So sorry for the late reply.
I was moving to Alor Setar some 460 km north of Kuala Lumpur.
I still don't have internet access at home and I have to go to cybercafe instead.

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.
And I'm not trained in that discipline.
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

http://kibayu.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rajah-sulaiman.jpg?w=594

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic :o

http://kibayu.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rajah-4.jpg?w=594

While the third line .. have to look further because I haven't found the similar wafaq .. will take some time because without internet access at home I'm a lot slow you know :o

Hope this helps a little.

mohd

[kai]

Hello Willem,

The decoration does not look Banjar/negara to me neither.
True - sorry for being terse. The silver inlay motif does look like Straits Chinese influence to me; they had a strong settlement in Banjarmassin and a lot more cultural interchange seems to have taken place there (compared to Aceh).

I can't remember having seen similar notches before though. Any similar examples (from firearms or other implements) throughout Asia?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Mohd,

Thanks a lot for chiming in while being busy!

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.
Is the round inscription from the other side of the stock also a wafaq?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=98668&stc=1

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

(snip)
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

mohd

Mohd,

Please explain how a straight line of symbols (Khatim Sulaiman) can be a wafaq ("magic square")?
Doesn't it have to be several lines, like a square or rectangle?
Or did you mean that the line with the symbols of Raja/Nabi Sulaiman (Solomon) is part of a wafaq?

Michael

[Dom]

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic :o Salam Bro.
thanks for the compliment ... I will forward it to the right person :D
unfortunately, I will not be available, from this evening (18th Dec.) until end of the week,
we are closing our home in Cairo - Egypt, and we will travel to Paris - France,
re-opening, gardening even if it's winter, collecting the most valuable weapons (for me ;) ) , from here and there
and your story is .... an headache in perspective, :eek:
but I've some documentation, about "talismans matter" Islamic and pre-Islamic period, in Paris, may be should be an help :p
best regards

à +

Dom

[asomotif]

Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

http://kibayu.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rajah-sulaiman.jpg?w=594

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic :o

http://kibayu.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/rajah-4.jpg?w=594

mohd

Thank you Mohd for your kind help.

If I understand it right, these are all wafaq related inscritpions, and not a word Jawi. So the piece might be Atjeh, but there is no direct link to that region. (sorry guys, in the Netherlands we know these weapons mostly from the Aceh war :o )

I am posting the pictures of the 2 links you gave for future reference.

Best regards,
Willem

[Rick]

Thank you Willem . :)
I feel a little bit better about my guess now . ;)

[asomotif]

Thank you Willem . :)
I feel a little bit better about my guess now . ;)

Your welcome ;)

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

[VVV]

Your welcome ;)

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael

[asomotif]

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael

Hello Michael,

Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking. :o

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel :eek: :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10847&highlight=magic+squares

[kai]

Hello Willem,

So the piece might be Atjeh, but there is no direct link to that region.
IMHO it's the rattan knots which heavily sway things towards Borneo; and the Banjar/Negara area sure looks like a nice fit to me.

sorry guys, in the Netherlands we know these weapons mostly from the Aceh war :o
Most surviving examples may well be from that war but as Maurice indicated, these were, of course, also widely used in the other conflicts throughout the archipelago, including subduing the Banjar sultanate. BTW, has anyone studied colonial blunderbusses in detail?

Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Willem,

Thanks for highlighting another clue to this riddle.

Michael

[kai]

Hello Willem,

Sorry, posts crossed.

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel :eek: :)
Yeah, I was thinking of Erik's neat blade, too.

Just as a sidenote for Cerjak, real wafaq are also a fairly common feature on upper-end Beladah Belabang (misnamed Parang Nabur). So, other talismanic invocations would certainly be no surprise from this area.

Regards,
Kai

[asomotif]

I am heavily leaning towards a Malay/Borneo/Banjar/Negara origin. :) ;)

Problem is, now I want one too ;)

[Cerjak]

Hello Michael,

Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking. :o

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel :eek: :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10847&highlight=magic+squares

Dear Willem

You was right to focus on the barrel’s decoration ,I was more taking care only about those inscriptions in the wood.
So many thank for your good opinion and this discovery about my blunderbuss.
Kind regards

Jean-Luc

[Cerjak]

Hello Willem,

Sorry, posts crossed.


Yeah, I was thinking of Erik's neat blade, too.

Just as a sidenote for Cerjak, real wafaq are also a fairly common feature on upper-end Beladah Belabang (misnamed Parang Nabur). So, other talismanic invocations would certainly be no surprise from this area.

Regards,
Kai
Dear Kai

Thank you for your explanation some time it is hard for me to follow this dicussion but I have to say that I 'm learning a lot about Ethnographic weapon in this forum
Kind regards

Cerjak

[asomotif]

I can't remember having seen similar notches before though. Any similar examples (from firearms or other implements) throughout Asia?

Regards,
Kai

I checked a few examples on the website of the dutch army museum in Delft.
Several of them are attributed to be "asian", most of them are said to have Tower locks, some have notches. a few are rebuilt to percussion.
Not realy a study here, but nice for comparisson. :)

[Dom]

Thank you Mohd for your kind help.
... snip ...
I am posting the pictures of the 2 links you gave for future reference
from the "gift" of .. Mohd :p

You requested the translation of both documents
- The first, the text is too secret, to expect a translation

- The second is an array, whose writing used is an old Arabic language from Middle East,
with more information to insiders, that we are not
- Syriac names are unknown
- The names of the Earth, also
- Values ​​talismanic, ditto

- The Arabic names are strange
- The names of angels, are readable, although one or two are obscure
- The names of incense, are also interesting, although almost unknown to us

all that to say, we do not expect long explanations, that we would be bored to give you
all this is a culture talismanic that we did not had :shrug:

every line have been translated, excepted for the "cabalistics signs",
you have matter for reflexions and suppositions

now the headache it's ... with you :p

all the best

à +

Dom

[asomotif]

Here a picture of a display at the dutch army museum showing a nice blunderbuss with dragon mouth barrel.

[Cerjak]

Here a picture of a display at the dutch army museum showing a nice blunderbuss with dragon mouth barrel.
Fantastic example, so nice !

[Maurice]

Good research Willem!

I've seen one for sale a while ago, and it was listed as blunderbuss from Aceh!
It had no ratan, but the same inlay on the barrel as this one!

If I knew what I know now thanks to you, I would have taken it at that time...
:-(

[Maurice]

Most surviving examples may well be from that war but as Maurice indicated, these were, of course, also widely used in the other conflicts throughout the archipelago, including subduing the Banjar sultanate. BTW, has anyone studied colonial blunderbusses in detail?


I think it's not easy to study colonial blunderbusses. As there was a lot of import/export!
But I know these blunderbusses were manufactured in Banjarmasin and Negara. I don't know how about other regions or indonesian islands, as I digged only this deep in Borneo matters.... (maybe other collectors of other specific area's can highlight something about the use/manufacturing of blunderbusses in other area's).

The text described below I have translated from J.C.J. Smits, "Gedenkboek Bronbeek".
This text will explain why (in my eyes) it's impossible to have a good study on these colonial blunderbusses as they all look the same or have similarities as others, which were trophees taken in other regions:..........................


In times when dr. Salomon Muller visited the former Banjarmasin state (in 1836), an amount of 100 Banjarese solely were concerned with the manufacturing of distinct weapon types.
"They make rifles", he said, "pistols-, soldiers- and shotguns, damascened sabers, swords and kerisses, in one word, all types of hand weapons."
These swords were partly made of indegenous steel, and partly of European steel.
The firearms that the Banjarese used in the war of 1859-1863, consisted of "lila's" (bigger and smaller blunderbusses) and guns of different shapes, mostly pan- but also percussion rifles.
MANY OF THE WEAPONS MADE IN NEGARA WERE EXPORTED. THIS PROBABLY EXPLAINES WHY THE RIFLES CONQUERED ON SUMATRAN EASTCOAST IN 1872 HAVE THESE HUGE SIMILARITY OF THOSE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS.

ALSO THE WEAPONS CONQUERED ON NIAS ARE AS GOOD AS THE SAME AS THE ONE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS.


Any other views on this subject are mostly welcome!
Rg
Maurice

[Maurice]

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel :eek: :)
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10847&highlight=magic+squares

To make it a bit more complexer :-)

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).
On page 325, the most upper image, on Javanese copper items...:eek: :D

But looking further in the same book I think we got the answer of these motifs on page 395:
These motifs are described here as: "Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."

Also on page 396 we find "examples of various Chinese Japanese, Indian and Indonesian key-and-hook designs."

[Maurice]

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).


"Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."[/B]


Here two images I scanned from the book on page 395, which come the closest to the motifs on the blunderbuss barrel and Erik's sword.
For those who don't have the book....

[Cerjak]

I Had the suprise today to see the same ornement on one second blunderbuss who seems to be the same model but still with his fintlock.

So should be from the same local gunmaker ..

[Cerjak]

I checked a few examples on the website of the dutch army museum in Delft.
Several of them are attributed to be "asian", most of them are said to have Tower locks, some have notches. a few are rebuilt to percussion.
Not realy a study here, but nice for comparisson. :)

Hi
I had the luck last week to find a similar model to this 012655 and again with the same design on the barrel I will post more pictures to show it.

[Cerjak]

more pics

[Cerjak]

more pics

[Cerjak]

more pic

[Cerjak]

last pics

[Maurice]

To make it a bit more complexer :-)

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).
On page 325, the most upper image, on Javanese copper items...:eek: :D

But looking further in the same book I think we got the answer of these motifs on page 395:
These motifs are described here as: "Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."

Also on page 396 we find "examples of various Chinese Japanese, Indian and Indonesian key-and-hook designs."

When reading a bit in one of the juynbollen, i came across a balinese knife with these bandji-ornaments. According Juynboll, who calls this motif also "bandji", these bandji's exist out of more swastika's motifs. Sometimes so abstractly that we even can't see the clear swastika anymore.
Ps. Balinese knife can be viewed at the Leiden database, nr. 466/2


Maurice

[Maurice]

Conclusion! We can't label these bandji ornaments at a certain area. They show up all over the indonesian archipellago!

Maurice

[max]

other blunderbuss, lock stamp 1814 with a lion

[Cerjak]

Max

Yes similar motifs on the barrel.
Thank you for those photos.
Any marks on the wood ?
Regards
Cerjak

[max]

Max

Yes similar motifs on the barrel.
Thank you for those photos.
Any marks on the wood ?
Regards
Cerjak

Hello Cerjak,
No there are no marks on the wood. I always though it was a atjeh blunderbuss. It was said to me by the former owner. Your thread weathen my prespective, also in historical view. I have read the discusion with much interrest. Thanks.
Kindly regards

[David]

Conclusion! We can't label these bandji ornaments at a certain area. They show up all over the indonesian archipellago!

Maurice
I have to agree with this conclusion, you will not place exact origin on any of these weapons based upon the bandji patterns on the gun barrels. This is a standard design throughout Indonesia seen in textiles and architectural features. The word "bandja" is taken from the Hokkiên dialect of Chinese and literally means swastika. It has Hindu/Buddhist significance, though this does not necessarily mean that the owners of these weapons were Hindu or Buddhist. The peoples of Indonesia have always been inclusionary people and have adopted both Hindu and Islamic symbolism in a syncretic manner along with the original animistic traditions that existed before these influences entered the archipelago.
I think Michael was on to something in regards to origin early on noting the circular rattan wrap on the OP's gun that i have only seen on Dayak weapons.

[Maurice]

I have to agree with this conclusion, you will not place exact origin on any of these weapons based upon the bandji patterns on the gun barrels. This is a standard design throughout Indonesia seen in textiles and architectural features. The word "bandja" is taken from the Hokkiên dialect of Chinese and literally means swastika. It has Hindu/Buddhist significance, though this does not necessarily mean that the owners of these weapons were Hindu or Buddhist. The peoples of Indonesia have always been inclusionary people and have adopted both Hindu and Islamic symbolism in a syncretic manner along with the original animistic traditions that existed before these influences entered the archipelago.
I think Michael was on to something in regards to origin early on noting the circular rattan wrap on the OP's gun that i have only seen on Dayak weapons.

Thank you for the explanation of the word "Bandja" David! That explains a lot!
I agree the "katon evok's" (woven ratan knots) point out of the Borneo direction.
But on most of the blunderbusses you don't find these kind of knots, even if they are from Borneo. And than it will be a lot more difficult to nail down the origine.

[Maurice]

Here two blunderbusses, from the Bronbeek museum collection and now on display because of the 150 years jubilee.

Both taken right out of the Aceh war.

[Cerjak]

Two pictures with similar Blunserbuss.
May be someone have better pictures ?

[Maurice]

Here's the Achenese blunderbuss in my collection.

[asomotif]

Here is my blunderbuss. tower lock flintlock

[Maurice]

That is a nice one Willem!
You've robbed it out of the museum?

Please share some images of the upperside of the barrel. I would love to see how it's decorated!

Maurice

[Cerjak]

Hi Willem ,

At last you have find a very nice one more like the second one I have post here. Same Tower flintlock and carved butt stock
Congretulation nice find !

Cerjak

[asomotif]

Thank you Cerjak and Maurice
I was very happy too with this find.
The barrel was rusty when I bought it, and after a bit of cleaning the inlay became visible. Not to mention the twisted barrel structure.

here are 2 pictures of the inlay. not very unusual inlay. But in a good condition considering the age.
I will try to make some more pictures soon.

Best regards,
Willem

[archer burak]

Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.
Hi everybody
I hope somebody could be able to tell me more about this quiet big blunderbuss. I don’t know in which language the marks in the stock are. The total size is around 125 cm for around 6 KG.
I Guess it was a English flintlock blunderbuss who was turn into percussion.
IT will be fantastic is someone will be able to translate those marks.
Best regards

Cerjak
Hi all , ı read hacı sadraci on butt it arabic but not Türk :)

[archer burak]

[QUOTE=Cerjak]still need help to translate or ID the marks .
I hope it will solved....[/QU
ı read '' haci sedat tahir '' but after words not familiar :)

[Cerjak]

[QUOTE=Cerjak]still need help to translate or ID the marks .
I hope it will solved....[/QU
ı read '' haci sedat tahir '' but after words not familiar :)
Dear Archer,

Please could you let me know from where are you reading those words and what it means : word or name ?
Best

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

Two pictures with similar Blunserbuss.
May be someone have better pictures ?
One more picture