Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?

[Gustav]

Dear All,

I would much appreciate your thoughts on this one. Actually quality/state of preservation of the blade wasn't acceptable for me, yet the whole was so interesting, that I decided to go for it.

The blade is 32,5 cm long, pesi 5,2 cm. If pesi was cut, it happened a long time ago, there are no signs of this procedure left. The blade fits perfectly in the sheath, at the mouth of the sheath as well as in the length.

There was a lot of rust between blade and Gonjo, Gonjo has been pushed down about 1 mm down the Pesi.

The mounts becouse of the finial (buntut) could be atributed to Kedah (this sultanate interests me more and more; I would like to open a separate thread on Keris from there). Sampir is made from black, very dense wood (Kenaung?).

My general question is the provenance of the blade: is this an older javanese blade, or could it perhaps be an old peninsular blade, perhaps a proto-Malela blade? I am really interested in all aspects of "this is so, becouse" regarding it.

My thoughts are:

the pamor looks Javanese;

the blade in current state is to short for a Javanese blade, as is the Pesi;

Ricikan look very Javanese, yet the protruding tip at the Gandhik side of Gonjo is perhaps a little bit strange.

As I said, I am interested in every aspect regarding this keris.

[Gustav]

More pictures:

[T. Koch]

Compaired to some of you guys I know almost nothing about keris and I unfortunately can't help you, but I wanted to say that I really really like it - it really touches me in a way that few keris do. The dapur (that's the shape, right?) has a great smoothness to it, very graceful. The carved groove in the middle, which I don't know the name of, fits in really well too! The ivory hilt is just icing on the cake. :)

Cheers and enjoy, - Thor

[T. Koch]

Is it elephant or whale btw?

[Sajen]

Hello Gustav,

very interesting keris, congrats! :) Not sure if the blade is javanese. :shrug: I see also Madura and Minang features, or I am wrong? Can you post pictures from the blade alone that we can see the pesi?

Thor, handle material is clearly hippo ivory IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

handle material is clearly hippo ivory IMHO.
I am missing the typical spots along the crack - hippo has been quite commonly used with peninsular and Sumatran hilts though. Maybe some more pics could help, Gustav?

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Hello Detlef,


I am missing the typical spots along the crack - hippo has been quite commonly used with peninsular and Sumatran hilts though. Maybe some more pics could help, Gustav?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

I think that I see exactly this at the 5. picture from the up. Maybe Gustav can confirm.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Congrats, nice score! I also do like the selut: quality seems quite above average!


Actually quality/state of preservation of the blade wasn't acceptable for me, yet the whole was so interesting, that I decided to go for it.
The blade doesn't look bad to me - quite some substance left, it seems?

IMVHO the ricikan look a bit rudimentary and were possibly never up to Jawa kraton quality standards though - however, this picture might change if you hypothesize major loss due to edge corrosion/repair...


The blade is 32,5 cm long, pesi 5,2 cm. If pesi was cut, it happened a long time ago, there are no signs of this procedure left.
Would also like to see the pesi! ;)


The blade fits perfectly in the sheath, at the mouth of the sheath as well as in the length.
To me the crosspiece looks like a somewhat later replacement - how does it look inside?


Sampir is made from black, very dense wood (Kenaung?).
Are you sure this isn't dyed wood?


My general question is the provenance of the blade: is this an older javanese blade, or could it perhaps be an old peninsular blade, perhaps a proto-Malela blade?
It's not a Malela blade. I believe Detlef may be up to something: size and dhapur would fit quite well with Minang Kabau esthetics; also a wavy gonjo and Javanese-inspired ricikan (and pamor) are not that rare with Minang keris.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were a N Malay keris blade crafted with heavy Minang influence. Expat Minang have had quite a bit of social/political influence regionally (in Negri Sembilan).

Regards,
Kai

[Gustav]

Thor, thank you for the enthusiastic comments. Here a good source for names of different features on a Keris blade:

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

Thank you very much for your comments, Detlef and Kai. Regarding the everlasting question "hippo or elephant", I must admit, I gave up this subject a time ago. May be I am not talented enough for it :) . There is a line of dots (or more precisely, a few dots on a line), which are not so distinct as on another hilt I have, which is sea ivory for sure.

A good thread regarding ivory:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6425&highlight=ivory

Tomorrov I will take a few more pictures of hilt and Pesi.

Kai:

the Ricikan was never Javanese first class standard on this blade for sure. This is an average blade.

Pesi: tomorrow, if it's not snowing.

Sampir: this was my suspicion also, before I received it. The wood is very dense; its quite dark, black where the oiled blade touched it, and it surely is old.

Blade: I never said, it is a Malela blade. It has Pamor. What I ment is:

IF it isn't a Javanese blade, IF it is a N. Malay Peninsula blade, and IF it is an older one, this MAYBE could be a form, which participated to the development of Malela blades. I feel something like this looking on the famous Paul's 13 Luk Malela blade, which is more on Javanese side then most Malela blades (Poyuhan, lack of Bugis type Gandhik), and which perhaps shares a few superficial similarities with my village quality specimen.

I think, you and Detlef are wright about certain Minang traits. Yet I also suppose, the Minang Keris (which is a deep mystery for me) was influenced or created by a Javanese form. And perhaps Peninsula was reached by both forms, this particular Javanese and Minang? Speculations, speculations...

[Henk]

Read these two threads.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14882
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4802

[Gustav]

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

[T. Koch]

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. :) Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, I am quite comfortable in saying that this blade is not from Jawa nor is it from Madura. Some of the characteristics do have a Madura appearance, but overall there is too much variation from Madura for it to fit this classification.
I do not wish to speculate on origin, but I do have a keris with very closely similar material and blade garap, ie, discounting the work in the sorsoran, and it was collected in Patani around 1920

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you very much for the clarification, I really needed it.

[Sajen]

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. :) Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

Hello Thor,

here a picture from a cross section through a hippo tooth where you clearly see the row of black spots. And now have a look to the picture Gustav posted.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.



Thank you for posting the pictures, agree, the pesi (and the blade) don't look like a Jawa one. Pesi look like of some of my Miang blades. Maybe Kai have given the direction.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, the pesi fits well within the parameters for both Javanese and Madura keris.

[Sajen]

Actually, the pesi fits well within the parameters for both Javanese and Madura keris.

Hello Alan,

not to short and bulky?

[A. G. Maisey]

For a full size, normal Surakarta pakem keris the tang should be between 7cm. and 7.5cm.

But there is a great deal of variation possible when we move away from Surakarta and into other parts of Jawa, other districts, other Kraton standards, villages with no real standards, other time periods.

Madura tangs often display a smaller diameter directly above the gonjo, and bear evidence of a punch being used to tighten the gonjo to the pesi, this keris of Gustav's appears to have a hint of this narrowing and there might be traces of a punch being used --- but this is not sufficient to over-rule the things that say it is not Madura.

This is a small keris:- it will have a shorter pesi than the norm.

Madura keris usually have a longer pesi than Jawa mainland keris (Madura is a part of East Jawa --- something many people tend to forget).

In a quality Javanese keris the pesi will be substantial. The reason people think of Jawa keris as having spindly pesi is because usually we only see very sub-standard Javanese keris and usually those keris are in poor to extremely poor condition. Good quality Javanese keris are not flimsy, especially if they are relatively recent, say within the last 200-300 years, and in good condition..

[Sajen]

Alan,

thank you very much for this detailed execution.

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

[Gustav]

Sorry for the late answer.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

Thank you for the reply, Henk. Exactly that was my starting position.

[David]

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.
While i don't automatically agree with everything Mr. Maisey has to say, if there is one thing i do consider him expert in it is the Javanese keris, as he has made it a lifetime's study and is the only member here that i am aware of who apprenticed to a kraton mpu. So i am likely to accept his position stated in post #13 that this blade is not from Jawa or Madura. :shrug: :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Henk, I have already stated that I am quite comfortable in my opinion that this is not a keris that was made in Jawa.

I am very seldom positive in my opinions unless I have good reason to be so, however, it is an opinion I have given, and any opinion from any person can be incorrect.

The link between various areas in Sumatra and Jawa is well known; the political links between Palembang and the House of Mataram is well known; the trade in Javanese blades throughout South East Asia is well known; the propensity of local smiths in areas outside Jawa to copy Javanese workmanship is well known. Nothing new in any of this.The trade in Javanese blades was well established by the 16th century, and is mentioned in the Book of Duarte Barbosa.

But when we look at a keris, we need to be able to do a lot better than just say:- "oh yes, its Javanese", or "oh yes, it could be Javanese".

We need to be able to say from where in Jawa it originated and at approximately what time. We need to be able to give it at the very least an approximate classification.

With the blade in question, although there are certain characteristics that have a Javanese quality to them, such as the gonjo, and a Madurese quality, such as the kembang kacang, the sogokan is not Javanese in nature, and especially the poyuhan is very uncharacteristic of Javanese garap. The pawakan is not characteristic of Javanese work, and the greneng, most especially the ron dha looks as if it has been cut by a blind man with palsy. It is terrible --- if we consider it as Javanese --- but for many of the other places where greneng and ron dha appear it is quite a usual representation. This is because in those other places the makers did not really understand the iconography of the greneng and the ron dha:- like virtually all people outside the pande clan, all they saw was a series of notches.

However, we can ignore all of that, and just look at the nature of the pamor and the exposure of the core of the blade. The way in which this has been done is something I have never seen in a Javanese blade, this has distinctly Bugis characteristics.

As I have said:- I have given an opinion, and any opinion can be wrong, but in this case I would need one hell of a lot of convincing that this opinion of mine is wrong.

[Henk]

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.
Your skills and education in keris as your native tongue can nail this issue way better down than i can. If i have to write down what you did it would take me a lot of time more. Time is at the moment very limited for me.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

[Gustav]

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

Henk, if this is so: I would be very thankful, if you could find some more time and comment on this blade, which also looks Javanese and also is mounted in Kedah dress. I would much appreciate your oppinion, put in a few necessary words.

[kai]

Hello Gustav,

Nice. :)
Looks again like a locally crafted blade to me.

Sorry for coming back to this thread late - will add more comments later. Please add a few pics of the whole keris for future reference, too.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, is it possible to provide a clearer image of the greneng?

[Gustav]

Kai, Alan, thank you for your answers. This Keris is not mine, it's depicted in both Jensens book and Krisdisk (chapter 10, page 32). Length of the blade 36,6 cm. Unfortunately no better pictures of Grenend there.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Gustav. Yes, I see what you mean.

[T. Koch]

Detlef, thank you for the picture. I'm duly aware that the interstitial zone of hippo tusks sometimes produce dark inclusions along the lateral margins, but similar "spots in a row" can be found in other types of ivory: The inner cementum of walrus or longitudinally along deep age cracks in tusks of the proboscids, for example. I was just hoping that maybe you had an academic reference up your sleeve to tie them to the hippo.

In general I think one should exercise care in assigning a source species to any ivory based on one character alone. -this goes x10 when we're doing it from photographs of course. :) I can recommend the article "Unusual appearance of Schreger-like pattern in Hippopotamus amphibius ivory" (Simms, 2010). -I don't agree with their conclusions, but their findings illustrate this point very well.


Best wishes, - Thor

[kai]

Hello Thor,

I'm duly aware that the interstitial zone of hippo tusks sometimes produce dark inclusions along the lateral margins, but similar "spots in a row" can be found in other types of ivory: The inner cementum of walrus or longitudinally along deep age cracks in tusks of the proboscids, for example.
Do you have any pics of such examples? The mottled areas of walrus make it usually less difficult to spot if the pieces are of reasonable size; while I have also seen spots with elephant, these seemed much less regularly distributed compared to hippo.

I was just hoping that maybe you had an academic reference up your sleeve to tie them to the hippo.
Thanks for the reminder - still need to search my wide sleeves... ;)

In general I think one should exercise care in assigning a source species to any ivory based on one character alone. -this goes x10 when we're doing it from photographs of course. :)
D'accord.

I can recommend the article "Unusual appearance of Schreger-like pattern in Hippopotamus amphibius ivory" (Simms, 2010). -I don't agree with their conclusions, but their findings illustrate this point very well.
Here's the link (http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(10)00180-5/abstract) !

Regards,
Kai

[Jean]

From the pictures I feel quite convinced that this hilt is made from hippo ivory as said by Detlef for the following reasons (not supported by any academic research but only practical experience):
. The dotted line is very characteristic of the hippo ivory and different from the age cracks of elephant ivory.
. Walrus ivory has a marble appearance if observed in cross view and this should reflect on the external visual appearance of the hilt, which is not the case.
. I have some doubts that walrus ivory was widely used for making kris hilts because it would involve trading links with Russia while it is widely accepted that the Bugis traded hippo and elephant ivory with East Africa, either directly or with the Omanis who controlled the area.
I refer you to the well-documented book from Wolfgang Schilling: "Faszination kris - Zauber des Materials" about the subject.
By the way I never observed any Schreger/ Retzius line in a piece supposedly made from hippo ivory...
Of course I remain open to discussion and am ready to change my mind if anybody can convince me otherwise :)
Best regards

[Sajen]

Hello Thor,

sorry for my late reply. I also don't have any academic research/opinon for my point of view. My position is based on facts like explained from Jean. I also refer you to the book from Wolfgang Schilling who is a friend collector from me. Sadly it will be difficult to get the book, the edition was very small. :o
A 100% safe result will be possible only by DNA anlysis IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Attached are the pictures of a similar hilt also made from hippo ivory I think, please note that the crest and "nose" have been damaged. The piece from Gustav may have been dyed as normally hippo ivory stays very white even after a long time (I saw few exceptions though).
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Over perhaps a few years now I have read the many and various posts and opinions on hilts made from supposedly hippo ivory, walrus ivory, this ivory, that ivory, and some other ivory. I've looked at close-up pictures of dotted lines that supposedly prove that the material is hippo ivory, I've looked at pictures of vague ivory grains that supposedly prove the material is some other sort of ivory. It seems almost everybody knows more about this exotic discipline of ivory identification than I do, so I have pretty much stayed out of the discussion.

However, it seems to me that somewhere, sometime during the last forty odd years of visits to Indonesia and long wandering conversations with collectors and dealers in keris and other objects in Indonesia, I would have heard some mention of hippo ivory. But I never have.

It seems that in my reading on historic trade links with the Old East Indies I would have somewhere stumbled across some mention of hippo ivory coming into what is now Indonesia. I never have.

The hilts that I see presented as hippo ivory seem to be almost universally described by dealers and collectors in Indonesia as "tulang ikan" = "fish bone", or "gigi ikan paus" = "whale tooth". I've never heard even the smallest whisper of "kuda nil", or "badak sungai" = hippopotamus.

Now, I'm not saying that this total absence of any acknowledgement by the people most closely concerned with keris, and most especially with the extraction of money from the trade in keris, is evidence that these hilts of supposedly hippo ivory are indeed, not hippo ivory. But it does seem strange that if the possibility is there, that these incredibly clever traders would ignore the chance to raise the exotica stakes a notch or two by throwing some hippo into the money mix.

So, is it barely possible that this hippo business is just another collector myth?

Where is the beginning and foundation for these claims that some hilts are made from hippo ivory?

Do we have any good, solid, incontrovertible evidence of just one hilt that is beyond the shadow of any doubt made of hippo ivory?

Or do we have opinions that choose to ignore the accumulated knowledge of the demographic most closely associated with the keris?

Quite frankly, I had never heard even the smallest suggestion that those poor old hippos in far away Africa had been contributing their body parts to the glorification of keris in Maritime South East Asia, until very recently.

I'd really like to try to understand how the whole thing happened.

Can somebody point me at an academic paper, or article, or report where an adequate analysis of the materials used in keris hilts demonstrates beyond any doubt that hippo ivory was used to create just one hilt? Or possibly some old trade inventories that list hippo ivory coming into Batavia or some other port in the Old Indies?

[asomotif]

Dear Allan,

Interesting question.
Antique dealers and also antique magazines in the west more or less agree that the dotted line indicates hippo ivory.
But I must believe you when you say this term is not used in Indonesia.

Best would be to go to the source and check with the people making these hilts. Do they ever have pieces of hippo ivory in stock ?
Have you ever seen the raw materials in Indonesia which they use ? this would indeed be very intersting.

Best regards,
Willem

[Jean]

Dear Alan and Willem,
Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows:
. All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO.
. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.
. The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know.
. All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China).
. For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside.
Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts. :)
Regards

[Sajen]

Dear Alan and Willem,
Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows:
. All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO.
. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.
. The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know.
. All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China).
. For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside.
Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts. :)
Regards

Agree in all points with you Jean and know also what Willem write about hippo ivory. Never have seen a hippo ivory hilt from Java or Bali.

Regards,

Detlef

[Rick]

I have seen numerous examples of Hippo Tooth for sale on gunbroker.com .
Usually from a Seller located in Florida . :shrug:

[rasdan]

I also believe that the sample above is actually hippo ivory. Not much evidence to form a basis of my belief apart from the dotted line present on hippo ivory matches with the one on these hilts and the following observations.

I noticed that there are 3 main types of ivory normally used to make keris hilts. Elephant (with cross hatch), "hippo" (mainly refered to as "gigi ikan" with the dots) and another one with no dots or cross hatch. The third type is normally smaller in size. Probably this is the real "gigi ikan"? :shrug:

The thing about "gigi ikan" versus elephant ivory and hippo's tooth is that, some people here consider "gigi ikan" as clean while elephant ivory and hippo (if that is the material) as unclean according to teachings in Islam. Probably this is the reason why the material is being presented as gigi ikan in the first place.

Currently, "hippo" ivory fetches a bit higher price here as opposed to elephant ivory (probably for the above reason) However when we look to old Malay saying "Sudah dapat gading betuah, tanduk tidak berguna lagi". Meaning a person had something much more valuable (elephant ivory) compared to horn.

If "gigi ikan" is being regarded highly in the old days, probably the saying will say "sudah dapat gigi ikan bertuah...." but this is not the case. (Notice that the cleanliness issue does not seem to play any role here) Probably people the really old times are not aware or does not subscribe to the belief that elephant ivory are unclean hence the above old saying. Therefore, my speculation that this "gigi ikan" thing is actually market driven due to the cleanliness issue that arose not very long ago.

But, it's just my speculation that is built on a very brittle foundation.. :D

[Jean]

I noticed that there are 3 main types of ivory normally used to make keris hilts. Elephant (with cross hatch), "hippo" (mainly refered to as "gigi ikan" with the dots) and another one with no dots or cross hatch. The third type is normally smaller in size. Probably this is the real "gigi ikan"? :shrug:


Hello Rasdan,
Thank you for the interesting Malaysian perspective. Gigi ikan (fish tooth) should normally refer to the spermwhale tooth (the most common) and dugong tooth/tusk (rarer and smaller in size), and they are known as marine ivory. I am not mentioning walrus ivory as I don't think that it was commonly used in the Malay region.
I checked the book Senjata Pusaka Bugis and found that they described most of the old ivory hilts shown in the book as dugong ivory (and few as elephant ivory), but I have my doubts about it considering the size and curvature of the Bugis hilts. :confused:
Regards

[Gustav]

. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.


Jean, I would be very interested in a written evidence regarding this point, becouse I searched for it and found nothing that would support a theory of direct trade between Bugis and Africa.

[A. G. Maisey]

First and foremost, let me be very clear:-

Jean, my remarks were not an attack upon you, nor upon anybody else.

I am simply try to get some solid evidence for the "hippo ivory" thing. As I have already remarked:- I have never heard mention of hippos until a few years ago. Why?

Jean, there is not challenge to trade links between Maritime SE Asia and Africa and the Middle East. It is established fact that trade was carried on for hundreds of years; the Malays began to extend trade links in about the 5th century, and there are populations of Malay people in a number of other countries, including a large presence in Madagascar --- just off the coast of Africa. There is no need to prove any connection between Maritime SE Asia and places far west, that connection is well documented and not at all open to challenge.

There is no difficulty at all in presenting a logical argument that hippo ivory could have made it to SE Asia, and could have been used in hilts.

But in my questioning post I did not ask for re-iteration of possibilities, beliefs nor logical argument. I asked for something slightly more positive.

In respect of this material only appearing in Sumatera and Peninsula hilts, well, maybe. These are the only hilts that have that pistol grip like curve that requires maximum manipulation of the material; in a Javanese or Balinese hilt the same material could be used and the ugly flaw of a dotted line avoided. The material could have been used, but we simply do not know.

I have a number of the hilts of the type that is associated with hippos. A couple have dotted lines, most do not. Mix these hilts, close your eyes, and try to identify one from the other. I've tried this, and I cannot. They all feel exactly the same. As to patina:- with the ones I have, he patina on the ones with dotted lines is pretty much the same as on the others, which I believe are marine ivory. Possibly others have a more sensitive touch than do I, and can differentiate on this basis, but I cannot.

I have a moderate collection of ivory pieces , and over 100 ivory keris hilts. Some pieces of known whales tooth do have colour variation on inside and outside, others do not.

Rasdan, thank you for your input. In my experience ordinary people in Indonesia do not differentiate between one kind of ivory and another. Its all "gading", even tagua nuts are referred to as gading by non-specialists and non-dealers. Why? Because to ordinary people all ivory -like materials look the same . Thus, if we have a colloquial expression --- " no use for horn if you've already got ivory" one could not reasonably expect a differentiation in colloquial usage.

If in Malaysia supposed hippo now brings a higher price than other ivory, it would interest me to know when this began to occur. I am inclined to believe that here we have evidence of input from the western world affecting the Malay market. Not dissimilar to the well known Keris Majapahit example.

Gigi ikan is a term that I would never expect to hear in Indonesia from a person with no keris connections, nor dealer connections.

Now, we've had a recitation of belief. It has been interesting and I accept it as belief. Maybe even entrenched belief. Is there anything just a little stronger out there?

[Jean]

Jean, I would be very interested in a written evidence regarding this point, becouse I searched for it and found nothing that would support a theory of direct trade between Bugis and Africa.

Hello Gustav,
Alan replied to this point and he is fully correct that some of the Madagascar people are from mixed Malay origin. I will try to find more written evidence about the subject.
Regards

[Jean]

I have seen numerous examples of Hippo Tooth for sale on gunbroker.com .
Usually from a Seller located in Florida . :shrug:

Hello Rick,
Yes indeed, if you google "hippo ivory sale" you will find this site which proposes many tusks at a very attractive price (cheaper than registered elephant ivory).
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, I don't know if these are Bugis people. The references I have only say "Malay".

They might be Bugis, but I don't know.

What I'm mostly interested in is this:-

when was the first mention of hippo ivory being used in these hilts, who made it, and upon what basis.

Following on from that, the proof that these hilts are definitely hippo ivory, not just the possibility that they could be hippo ivory.

[Jean]

I found a recent and interesting article about the various types of ivory at the following address:
http://stoneplus.cst.cmich.edu/zoogems/ivory.html
Nothing very new in it but a good summary with references and it confirms the dotted line and the higher density of hippo ivory (and spermwhale ivory) than elephant ivory especially. It also says that Schreger lines are only found in elephant or mamooth ivory :)
Regards

[Jean]

Jean, I don't know if these are Bugis people. The references I have only say "Malay".

They might be Bugis, but I don't know.


Hello Alan,
If you google "Malagasy people" and select Wikipedia you will read that: the "first Austronesian settlers (in Madagascar) arrived between the 3rd and 10th century from Borneo" but I can't comment on it and agree that they may be Bugis or not.
Regards

[Gustav]

Hello Gustav,
Alan replied to this point and he is fully correct that some of the Madagascar people are from mixed Malay origin. I will try to find more written evidence about the subject.
Regards

Jean, Madagascar people had nothing to do with Bugis trade. Regarding the settlement of Madagascar, it is still absolutely unclear if it was a deliberate act (more or less regular visits of Austronesians) or an accident. As I understand, the latest insights incline to see it as an onetime accident. More clear seems now, these people should be of South Borneo origin, and for sure this settlement was completed before 900 AD.

As I said, I searched a while ago about Bugis trade, and I even don't have found evidence Bugis traded directly with Ceylon=the Bugis vessels have reached Ceylon.

[Jean]

Jean, Madagascar people had nothing to do with Bugis trade.

Gustav,
I agree, the Malay settlement in Madagascar occurred much earlier than the Bugis trade indeed. :)
Regards

[rasdan]

Hi Jean,

The ones they have in the keris bugis book I think is probably sperm whale tooth. (Again a guessing game here) In the past, I had bought something that is being sold as dugong tooth. It's certainly does not look like ivory. Looks more like bone. (If it is really dugong's tooth that is - I don't even know if dugongs have large teeth/tusks to tell you the truth) It is very small to have a bugis hilt to be carved out of it, so I had it made into a hilt by gluing it section by section.

G'day Alan,

Yes, I agree that probably everything that look like ivory is labeled as elephant ivory by the general public in the past. This had probably annulled my second point.

But, what about the dots? It really correlates with the dots on hippo ivory. Pattani pekaka hilts (large Jawa Demam) is normally made from this kind of material and it can be very large. It is hard for me to imagine any ivory other than elephant that can provide the size. I certainly have very little experience with this kind of material, but are there any other type of material that have these dots? (I had seen these dots in a picture of a cross section of hippo ivory, but can't find it at the moment)

I have to make clear about the market of gigi ikan and elephant ivory here in Malaysia. The difference is not quite substantial. If we have two similar hilt, one is elephant and one is marine, the marine is gonna be a bit expensive. If we only have elephant, the the price would be pretty much the same with the marine one.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, one of my deficiencies is that I am somewhat of a dinosaur.

I very seldom use internet sources for serious research, and when I do, I look for reference works or citations attached to the net source.

Regrettably Wikipedia very often has neither and that is the case with this Malagasy reference you have directed me to. In essence, it is somebody's opinion, but we don't know who, and we don't know how reliable that opinion is.

But in any case, all of this is very much off to one side. There is plenty of evidence of far reaching Malay trade links, and even if the Malays themselves were not roaming hither and yon, other peoples from far west were wandering over to S.E.Asia. Lots of movement.

I do not deny the possibility of hippos contributing to keris accoutrements.

That is not at all what was in my mind when I began this chain of posts.

Two questions:-

1) who first raised the matter of hippo ivory being used in keris hilts, and when was this first raised?

2) what solid evidence exists that can substantiate that possibility and turn it into fact?

This is what I would like to know.

Until we have answers to these two questions, especially the second one, the possibility of hippo ivory used as material for keris hilts is just that:- a possibility. No more.

As an aside, there is a theory that everything in the world gradually moves to the east. I have bought genuine, excavated, Roman beads (authenticated) in Jawa. No reason why hippo ivory should not have moved to the east, along with a multitude of other things. That is possibility. What I would like to see is positivity.


Rasdan, I know there are dots in some hilts.

I also know that in spite of all the ivory I own, I know very little about ivory, certainly not sufficient to identify simply by looking and lifting whether something comes from one beast, or a different beast.

Accordingly, I am not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory in keris hilts.

I am asking for two things, as above.

With those answers I can then begin to wonder why it is that I have never heard mention of hippo ivory until very, very recently. Did the old-timers not know from what beast the material their keris hilts came? Then there is the dealer question. Dealers are sharp. They pass up on nothing that might generate an extra few rupiah.

[Sajen]

I had seen these dots in a picture of a cross section of hippo ivory, but can't find it at the moment



Dear Rasdan,

look post #15 this thread. Agree with you that this dots a very clear sign for hippo ivory.

Regards,

Detlef

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

Yes if we are about to scientifically prove that it is hippo then what we had been doing is certainly inadequate and I surely don't have any answers.. :)

Hi Detlef,

Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread :) ) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic! :D

[Sajen]

Hi Detlef,

Wow, the picture is right there and I can't remember?. Must be that apocalypse thing. (actually I jumped to the end of the thread :) ) Thanks for kindly pointing out the pic! :D


Hi Rasdan,

have posted the same picture by a other thread some time ago, I think you remember it from this time. :D

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Rasdan.

But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

[asomotif]

Dear Alan,

The spotted line is only found in hippo ivory.
Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory".

One of your points is that salesmen in Indonesia do not use the term hippo.
But do they make a big selling point of the fact if a hilt is made from elefant ivory ?
And in these cases do they specifiy this into asian elephant, african elephant and/or even mammoth ivory ?

Best regards,
Willem

[David]

Well, i will say that personal, from my own preferences as a Western collector, i am less interested in exactly what kind of ivory a hilt might be made of than i am the quality of the carving and the condition and patina of the piece. Elephant or hippo, i could care less really. It does seem to me that marine ivory (a term i do accept and usually assume is whale tooth since most dungong doesn't seem to have the mass to allow for the carving of many hilt forms) tends to age to a nice warm orange color that i do really like, but beyond that i really have no ivory preferences. :shrug:

[Jean]

Thanks Rasdan.

But if we cannot prove this hippo ivory thing, is it possible to at least identify the first time that it was raised as a possibility, upon what basis, and by whom?

Hello Alan,
I think that it will be very difficult to identify when and where the hippo ivory issue for making kris hilts started or when it was first documented, especially because it probably happened a long time ago and not in Java nor Bali.
And about scientifically proving the hippo ivory thing we would need to resort to a recognized materials analysis laboratory but personally I have no access to any at present. According to the litterature (Webster) the physical properties of hippo ivory differ from elephant ivory especially its specific gravity (1.8 to 1.95 versus 1.7 to 1.85) and its hardness (5 versus 2.5-3, this is the most marked difference). This shows the more mineralized structure of hippo ivory. These 2 physical differences are well (although qualitatively) reflected in the hilts attributed to hippo ivory IMO, together with the generally better ageing performance (less discolouring and cracks) and the presence of the famous dotted line. There are probably some more modern and decisive techniques (radiation, DNA analysis) able to differentiate them also but I am not aware of any.
What do our distinguished members from Singapore have to say about the subject?
Regards

[Jean]

Probably it is a western collector thing that we want to know the exact origin of ivory, and that we not accept a term as "marine ivory".
Willem

Hello Willem,
Personally I fully accept the term "marine ivory" for kris hilts materials but for me it refers to spermwhale tooth, dugong tooth/tusk, and walrus tusk only.
I think that walrus ivory had been seldom used for making kris hilts and that because of the small size of the dugong tooth/tusk, it can only be used for relatively small and straight hilts (Jawa demam, putrasatu) but not for curved Bugis hilts for instance.
Best regards

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

I presume it probably started by a westerner recently. In my case, I stumbled upon the pic that Detlef had shown us earlier in this thread and I googled hippo ivory to see the possibility and I think it is possible that it is hippo since I didn't found anything else that matches the dotted criteria.

I did wondered how hippo ivory arrived here and the possibility that the people at that time "disguise" it as the cool sounding gigi ikan instead of the ugly hippo's tooth (assuming that people at that time know what is a hippo and have a common perception think that it is ugly and unclean) due to marketability and the cleanliness issue, but I never pursued the quest any further and I won't be able to defend my "theory" above. :)

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you gentlemen.


Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times.

What I would like to know is this:-

1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion.

2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom?


Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line?

Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification?

I have not raised the matter of where and when hippo ivory was first used, rather I have raised the matter of who first made the claim that certain keris hilts were made of hippo ivory, and when did this occur.


Rasdan, yes, I believe you're correct. I feel that it is absolutely a belief that is anchored in the western keris world, and a relatively new belief at that. This is the reason that I am attempting to fix a beginning point for this entry of the hippo ivory belief into keris collecting.

I'm not arguing against the possibility of hippo ivory, but what I would like to see is a qualifier when the possibility of hippo ivory arises, for example:-

"because of the dotted line (Webster) there is a high probability that this hilt is made of hippo ivory"

rather than:-

" this hilt is of hippo ivory"


David, this is not a comment on hippo ivory, but on quality of workmanship.

Thirty years ago in Surabaya I bought a large number of keris hilts from several different dealers. Some were wood, some were various kinds of ivory, some were in other materials. Some were old, some were recent. Most were Madurese and intricately carved.

The highest prices were paid for the finest workmanship. Material had very little impact on price. I paid more for some wooden hilts than I did for some ivory hilts. The determining factor for price was quality, not material.

In Jawa this situation prevailed through until the tree huggers swung into action and succeeded in getting the international trade in ivory banned. As predicted, the price of ivory immediately sky-rocketed and the illegal ivory trade along with mass extinctions of elephants took off like gang busters.

If you want make something more valuable, ban trade in that item.

[Sajen]

Only want to add some reading stuff.

Here one site from cites: http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/pub/e-ivory-guide.pdf
And here one from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service: http://www.lab.fws.gov/ivory_natural.php#hippo
And here one from the International Ivory Society: http://www.internationalivorysociety.com/Home/ivory-links/identification/ivory-identification-by-bob-weisblut

And there will a booklet coming for ivory identification: http://dcgia.org/2012/10/14/ivory-identification-workshop-bobby-mann/

[asomotif]

Willem, yes, I have read in this Forum many times that the dotted line proves that a material is hippo ivory. Many, many times.

What I would like to know is this:-

1) what is the source of this information? Hopefully it will be a credible source, possibly a book, or paper by some respected authority, or researcher, and with a verification from one or more other sources. I am looking for fact, not opinion.

2) when was this issue of "hippo ivory" relative to keris hilts first identified, and by whom?


Aaarghhh, Detlef beat me. I was busy typing when he added several links. :D Never mind, I will just continue. ;)


Dear Alan,

1) Cites has a very destinctive interest in ivory and ivory trade.
They describe the dotted line on their website in an identification guide which was published in 1991 by the World Wildlife Fund.
The researcha was done by : United States National Fish & Wildlife Forensics Laboratory, located in Ashland, Oregon.
I consider them a respected authority on the subject.
http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/pub/e-ivory-guide.pdf

2) Absolutely impossible to say who first identified hippo ivory in relation to a keris hilt.
Who first identified elephant ivory in relation to the same ?
Who first identified buffallo horn as a material used for keris hilts ?
I don't think anyone can say who first identified these materials.
seems irrelevant to me who identified it first.
Who identifies it now ?, and based on which criteria ?

For me, the first time I came accross this knowledge was probably 9 years ago when I saw a very attarctive rencong for sale at "Aalderink Oriental Art" a gallery in Amsterdam, established in 1929. It is a respected gallery of good reputation.
The owner showed me the rencong which had a massive ivory hilt. He showed me the dotted line and explained that this indicated hippo ivory.
Then from a drawer he took a large hippo tusk that was partly in its original shape and partly grounded to a smooth surface. and there again was this distinctive dotted line.
Although I can be stubborn and headstrong, (according to my wife, my mother, my father and my sister, all respected autorities on the subject ;) :D )
I just had no reason to question this gallery owners authority on the subject and gladly accepted this little learning opportunity. :)

In the end, the material is not very important, it is the beauty of the item that counts. but in cases where I can identify the material I see no reason why I should avoid it. And it makes some nice conversation now and then.

Best regards,
Willem

[Rick]

I am constantly amazed at how far afield we get sometimes . ;) :)

[Jean]

Jean, I think you are naming "Webster" as the source for identification of hippo ivory by presence of a dotted line?

Who is Webster, how reliable is his work, when was it produced? Is there verification?


Hello Alan,
The results from Webster (Robert) are referenced in the article from Richard V. Dietrich (Central Michigan University) which I listed in post #48.
I have no access to Webster's paper but it is included in the Gems & Gemolology Subject Index compiled by R.V. Dietrich (CMU) and A.A. Levinson (University of Calgary) as follows:
"Ivory distinguished from bone, Winter 1948-49, Volume VI, pages 105-110" (if I understand it correctly).
Actually the results from Webster as referenced by R.V. Dietrich concern the measurement of the specific gravity and hardness of hippo ivory as compared to other types of ivory and bone.
His work is not referenced in the CITES article bibliography probably because it is too old...
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you gentlemen. What you have jointly provided is exactly the sort of information I was seeking.

I cannot open the CITES link, but will accept that it endorses what you are all telling me.

In any case, my initial post has had the effect I had hoped for, and I thank you all for your participation in this interesting discussion.

Happy Christmas!!!

[T. Koch]

Guys, before saying this, I would like to state that in the company of most of you gentlemen, I know next to nothing about keris. I'm an intellectual dwarf on the matter. My knowledge is so small that it gathers at the feet of your knowledge, together with other small knowledges, just to bow down in the dust and WORSHIP! I realize that a lot of you have been collecting for half a lifetime – more in some instances – and that you possess a quality of knowledge that only comes with submersion in a topic for years on end. I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you!

When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport.

By this time, I would estimate the amount of items from CITES-contained species that have passed through my hands, to number in the low thousands -conservatively set. When giving my opinion on a source species, the requirements of my position and the possible legal gravity that my judgement potentially carries, has cultivated in me a strong sense of carefulness: I might need, to later stand up in court and reiterate my opinion on the source of a given material in front of a judge. For that reason, I will ever only state that a material is from a certain species, if I with every fibre of my being consider it so. Any doubt at all, and I let it go.

A perspective which becomes apparent with sufficient time spent in this field, is that the guidelines for identification of ivories are exactly that: Guidelines! The more pieces you see, the more you become aware of the existence of anomalies and how completely far and strangely removed from the norm these often are. When you not only look at weapon hilts, but everything, from raw tusks and teeth, in longitudinal- and transsection, to tiny little jewelry and scrap ivory, it becomes very clear: A strong ID is not as easy as ticking of a certain box and then you have your species. This was the point of my first post:

To encourage other collectors to likewise be cautious and base their assessments on careful consideration of the whole piece presented, rather than quickly looking for a single character fit.


Regarding the piece at hand, my opinion is still, from the photographic material here presented, that the source might as well be some other kind of ivory than hippo. If I failed to make it clear in my first post, please let me explain here, that I mentioned walrus not because I found it a likely source in this case. I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure. I mentioned this, merely to support my point that basing a species ID on a single character in a given piece of ivory, is a fallacy.

My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion!

Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory. Willem, my Borneo-guru, you belong right up there in the group of gentlemen that I first mentioned, but I humbly believe you to be wrong on this matter. I know Espinosa & Mann, very – very - well, but nowhere do I remember them making a reference to these “dots in a row”.


I would like to check it out now myself, but hey, it's New Years and I have an impatient girlfriend, actually waiting around for me this time.. Therefore, in the words of some Roman: Nunc est bibendum! :D



Happy New Years guys, - Thor

[Jean]

When it comes to ivory, it is likewise important to me to state that my knowledge on the subject doesn't come from arms collecting, but as a consequence of my job. As I have said before, I put bread on our table as a CITES Management Authority for our Nature Agency under The Danish Environmental Ministry and am now going on my 6th year. In other words: It's part of my daily work to look at random peoples' old stuff, make a source species ID and tell the owners if they need to apply for a CITES-permit/certificate before selling the item in question. I also work borders with our customs agency, ID'ing items coming in through the mail as well as carried by travellers in the airport.
My thoughts on topic of hippo ivory in the context at hand, are much in alignment with Allan Maisley's. Like Allan, I would also very much like to see written proof that hippo ivory was carved and used in this way in South East Asia. Please note, that I don't say that I do not believe it, simply that I would like to see the source. In the face of new evidence, I am always up for changing my opinion!
Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory.


Hello Thor,
We are very lucky to have an ivory expert among us! :)
Personally I am convinced by your arguments since you are the specialist and admit that I have been too quick to accept the presence of the dotted line along with other qualitative or visual indicators (feeling of higher density & hardness, colour, structure) as a proven indicator that a piece is made from hippo ivory. I agree that this evidence was not sufficiently documented.
If my question is not too difficult, could you please tell us how do you positively identify carved hippo ivory pieces subject to your inspection?
And a more detailed one: did you ever notice a dotted line in some pieces identified as spermwhale ivory?
If I have the opportunity to meet you I will be glad to show you my pieces in question provided that your Customs Authorities do not seize them :D
Thank you and happy New Year!
Jean

[Sajen]

I mentioned having seen similar “dots in a row” in walrus ivory (likewise with elephant) – none of which have an interstitial zone as part of their physiological structure.

Hello Thor,

please can you provide pictures of clearly determined walrus and elephant ivory with this "dots in a row"?

[Sajen]

Secondly, and for me more importantly, I would like a source to “dots in a row” being a sure-shot character for the ID of hippo ivory.

Hello Thor,

the provided links I and Willem have posted don't tell something about "dots in a row" but confirm this with other words. very clear in this link: http://www.internationalivorysociety.com/Home/ivory-links/identification/ivory-identification-by-bob-weisblut like follow: "There is a nerve root that looks like a "dash" or curved line properly referred to as a "TIZ". "

And sometimes a picture can tell much more as written words. The picture is taken from here: http://www.beyars.com/de_elfenbein-flusspferd-flusspferdzahn.html Unfortunately all written in german language.

[Sajen]

And here for comparison the handle from one of my badik handles. Sorry for be a pain in this matter but I am very very positive about to assign hippo ivory by this "dots in a row".

Best regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thor, I thank you most sincerely for your further post.

It seems that your professional background is not all that dissimilar from my own, not that I work in border control ivory identification nor for a CITES agency, but rather that when I give a professional opinion I must be able to substantiate that opinion beyond the point of dispute.

I have not yet been able to open the CITES link that was provided, but it would seem from what you say that the material in this link is of the nature of guidelines, rather definitive statements.

I much appreciate both your input to this thread, and the professionalism of that input. Thank you very much. I do hope you stay involved in our shared interest.