A whole lot of keris! [Archive] - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

nechesh

15th December 2005, 05:27 PM

Lew

15th December 2005, 05:51 PM

Yeah Lew, i was watching that one too. If i had the time that could have made a very nice winter restoration project. :)
I think in the end the buyer did OK as it looks like there are a couple of nice blades in there. The Bali w/the hair wrapped hilt looks solid and would probably clean up nice. The hardest part, for Western collectors at least, is replacing sheaths. I think one would have a real tough time piecing together even one good wrongko from those parts.

Nechesh

I am the buyer :D I was really interested in the Bali keris and the other two large blades they should keep me busy this winter. The leather scabbard seems to be made for the Bali keris very strange? Maybe the keris was carried around by some westerner for hunting or even during WW1 or 2 as a combat dagger?? Did the Dutch soldiers carry these keris at one time early in the 20th century?

Lew

nechesh

15th December 2005, 06:18 PM

Hey Lew, i wouldn't count on that leather sheath being nearly that old. I think it is just something some Western collector gerry-rigged to do the job. It looks like there may be a few other interesting keris in there but i don't think the others are Bali. I will be interestred in the close-ups when your package arrives. :)

kai

15th December 2005, 10:31 PM

Hi Lew,

Did the Dutch soldiers carry these keris at one time early in the 20th century?
AFAIK the Dutch army never issued military keris - as evinced by the widespread notion of it being an unsuitable weapon amongst outsiders, I guess it was never thought worthy by the Dutch military leaders. I'm not sure wether Indonesian recruits were allowed to carry their own keris as an back-up. If so, I'm pretty sure this would have been a traditional scabbard and not leather. This leather piece looks pretty intact and hasn't seen much use in tropical climate (if any - I also guess this was done in Europe).

Regards,
Kai

Henk

16th December 2005, 07:13 AM

The dutch soldiers didn't used the keris. Neither the Indonesian soldiers in the KNIL service. The klewang or the bajonet was the weapon when firearms weren't used. Keris or other weapons were not permitted to wear with the uniform.

Of course in the heat of the battle a weapon could be picked up for temporarily use.

BluErf

17th December 2005, 01:03 AM

Wow, that's a lot of keris projects to keep busy for a long while. :)

Lew, could you pls post close-up pics of the 5th blade from the top when the shipment arrives? I think that is one of the best blades in the lot. 2 shallow fullers running to the tip, good greneng, strong spine, handsome gandik, and a good size too. I think it could be Sumatran, or possibly Malay.

Thanks!

Ferguson

17th December 2005, 01:22 AM

Nice snag Lew, You're going to be busy!

Steve

Lew

10th January 2006, 04:14 AM

Hi All

The keris arrived today and here are a few pics. Let me know what you think?
The blade at the bottom is 14" the othe two are 15" the bali keris is 17" long.
They all show some nice pamor that needs to be brought out.

Lew

nechesh

10th January 2006, 02:09 PM

Hey Lew, i think you might have scored a few nice blades there. In the pic of the four blades the one on the left is an old kebo form, a dapor suitable for those in the agricultural fields, the next one over looks like is might be peninsula work, but i could be wrong. Regardless it is very well formed. The next, which is probably Javanese, seems solid, but average. The Bali looks nice, not a full ricikan blade, but still well formed. The short little blade with the Sumartran sheath looks to be an old patrem or women's keris.These are somewhat scarce. Does it proper fit into the sheath? I can't wait to see what kinds of pamors rise to the surface of these as you restore them. :)
Finding hilts for these probably won't be too much trouble, but properly sheathing them will. You may need to send them overseas for a while and at a price quite a bit more than you paid fot the blades themselves, but it might be worth it in the end. :)

Mans

10th January 2006, 04:36 PM

Hi Lew, you got the nice kerises, now.

Trying to give my opinion ;
1st : Straight Old Keris Dapur Ron Teki with pamor Wos Wutah (Strewn Rice). Similiar with Dapur Kebo Lajer, but this keris has Kembang Kacang and Lambe Gajah. The character of this blade (on iron, pamorwork and some ricikans style), I think this keris came from Kahuripan era. Kahuripan is the kingdom at east Java before Majapahit era (about 12th-13th century).

2nd : Straight Old Keris from Bangkinang Sumatera. Bangkinang is the name of Kingdom which located near from Riau. Usually the keris like this made about 17th-18th century with no pamor or called as Keris Kelengan.

3rd : Straight Old Keris dapur Jalak Ruwuh with no pamor. If it has, I think it just few Wos Wutah. At the centre of this blade (from bottom until the tip) has ricikan (feature) called Ada-ada or Nggigir Sapi. The iron is very smooth and has the smooth fibrous too. I supposed that this keris came from end of Majapahit period (about 14th-15th century). Unfortunately, looks like the Pesi of this keris has change. Perhaps the original pesi has broken. Usually, the pesi of this keris is very thin.

4th : Keris Bali with 9 waves. I think you must change the scabbard with wooden wrangka in order to protecting the Kembang Kacang.

Overall, these are the beautiful keris, specially the #3 keris ;) Nice !!

Lew

10th January 2006, 05:09 PM

Mans

Are you saying these keris are actually that old 1300-1800 or just the style of keris that were made in the 19th century?

Lew

Lew

10th January 2006, 05:17 PM

The short little blade with the Sumartran sheath looks to be an old patrem or women's keris.These are somewhat scarce. Does it proper fit into the sheath?

Necesh

There is a small amount of damage where the two pieces meet but it does fit perfectly in the scabbard.

Lew

Mans

10th January 2006, 07:48 PM

Mans
Are you saying these keris are actually that old 1300-1800 or just the style of keris that were made in the 19th century?
.......
The short little blade with the Sumartran sheath looks to be an old patrem or women's keris.These are somewhat scarce.

On the knowledge of Javanese keris, any characteristics of the keris it self which used to estimating when the keris made and from where it came (Jawa = Tangguh). To estimate the Tangguh, we must known well about the features, the luks and some ricikans style, iron type and pamor work, also some features which shown region characteristics of the keris. Each of regions has self characteristics, this term called "Pasikutan".

Also, we will know and can distinguishing of each keris if we has very familiar with the keris or often seeing and holding many keris by our self.

So, I supposed that some of your keris is an old made from 1300-1800 as I said before. Not just the style of these keris. I tried to explain by the pictures ;) . (Also see more detail pictures of Javanese keris at http://keris.fotopic.net).

About your Bangkinang Sumateran keris, it is not the Patrem because many Bangkinang keris made with the style like this one.

Mans.

Tim Simmons

10th January 2006, 08:19 PM

Lew got some really good things here, even I can see that. I do not want to upset anyone as keris collectors can be a little volatile. Are you honestly saying that these have a medieval date. I asked the fairies who live at the bottom of my garden but I could not hear them because of the aircraft noise. Tim

nechesh

10th January 2006, 08:56 PM

About your Bangkinang Sumateran keris, it is not the Patrem because many Bangkinang keris made with the style like this one.

Hi Mans. Thanks for more of you generously illustrated posts. Pictures help so much, though not quite as much as hands-on. ;)

You did, i assume, notice that the blade of this Sumatran keris is only 8" long. I am not aware of there being many keris from any area that are usually this small unless they are patrem.
I have heard the first blade being referred to as Kebo Teki before. Is Ron Teki more correct in your opion or is either term proper?

Mans

10th January 2006, 11:09 PM

Hi Mans. Thanks for more of you generously illustrated posts. Pictures help so much, though not quite as much as hands-on. ;)

Hi Nechesh,

If you near from me, I will borrowing my keris and sending it to you. So, you can hands-on it all :) But, I think you has many collections too, didn't you ;) ?

Indeed that too many Dapur on the Javanese Keris. At book with tittle Keris (Daya Magic - Manfaat - Tuah - Misteri) wrote that the dapur of Javanese keris made amount 819 kinds. Too much kinds, isn't it ? So that often can make us confused, included me :o .

Some Dapur has no name yet because not wrote at any literatures or Pakem of the Javanese keris. So, if we found the keris which has no Pakem, we called it as Kalawijan. But, many keris can be identified. Like the differences between Ron Teki with Kebo Teki or Mahesa Teki. "Kebo" is same with "Mahesa", mean Buffalo. Keris Kebo Teki and Ron Teki has the longer Gandik than usual keris. But Kebo Teki has no Kembang Kacang. In the other side, Ron Teki has Kembang Kacang on the Gandik.

Here I posted the pictures ;
1st : Kebo Teki / Mahesa Teki
2nd : Kebo Lajer / Mahesa Lajer
3th : Ron Teki
4th : Dhuwung
5th : Kebo Giri / Mahesa Kanthong

Lew

11th January 2006, 02:34 AM

Here are three more keris from that batch they all seem old and etched quite a bit. The naga seems to be missing a peice.

Lew

nechesh

11th January 2006, 04:11 AM

Lew, i believe that is a Singa, not a Naga, a lion in a seated position. It does appear to be missing it's gonjo, which is a shame since you don't see too many actually old examples of these blades.

Alam Shah

11th January 2006, 06:07 AM

Lew, i believe that is a Singa, not a Naga, a lion in a seated position. It does appear to be missing it's gonjo, which is a shame since you don't see too many actually old examples of these blades.It's a Singa Barong. It's right leg seems to have came off a little. The ganja is missing, but can be remade, if you wanted to.

I especially like the short Palembang piece and the one marked no.2 by Mans.
Up close, some of these kerisses are of good quality, less missing its fittings. Congrats! on obtaining these. ;)

Lew

11th January 2006, 04:23 PM

What types/styles of hilts should I be looking at to make the restorations on these keris? The small keris up top only has a 2 inch tang is that a problem?

Lew

nechesh

11th January 2006, 08:10 PM

Ah, now there's the rub. Certainly each of these blades fits into a regional catagory with it's own cultural considerations. But within those catagories you have many options of style and form. So many choices, so little time. :)

Alam Shah

12th January 2006, 12:52 AM

What types/styles of hilts should I be looking at to make the restorations on these keris? The small keris up top only has a 2 inch tang is that a problem?
LewThe 2 inch tang is normal for this form.

Here's a good resource for forms according to region:
http://blade.japet.com/KERIS.htm

The pictures, would illustrate enough for you to understand the form.
Although it's in French, you can use this translator:
http://world.altavista.com/

nechesh

12th January 2006, 04:06 AM

Lew, i wonder if your Sumatran keris patrem isn't from Minangkabau. The Minangkabau people have a unique matriarchal society and i would think that the patrem might actually be more common there considering this social structure. This keris has some of the elements i have seen on other patrem from the area. If you check out Adni's site you will see a few for the area that he has had recently.

Alam Shah

12th January 2006, 09:55 AM

You did, i assume, notice that the blade of this Sumatran keris is only 8" long. I am not aware of there being many keris from any area that are usually this small unless they are patrem.There are quite a few with different blade and sheath form from different regions. Known as keris pendek (pendek=short)...

Keris Pendek Sumatra form (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=albun46&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)
Keris Pendek Peninsular form (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=albuo66&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)
Sumatra (Palembang) form (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=album79&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)
East Sumatra form (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=Little-Keris-Bahari&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)

BluErf

12th January 2006, 01:35 PM

Alam Shah

12th January 2006, 01:49 PM

And you guys probably remember this archetypal Minang heartland keris. It doesn't get more Minang than this. :)

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules.php?set_albumName=albup90&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php Pretty new addition to your collection...it wasn't there when I last checked...(last post). :eek: ;)

BluErf

12th January 2006, 01:54 PM

Oh, I think it was posted on the old Vikingsword forum, before you joined. :)

nechesh

12th January 2006, 02:03 PM

Stop it Kai Wee, you're getting me hot! :D

Lew

12th January 2006, 03:01 PM

I did a light etch on the Bali keris so here are some pics of the blade.

Lew

nechesh

12th January 2006, 04:56 PM

Lew

12th January 2006, 06:11 PM

Nice pattern Lew. What did you etch with. Be careful not to lose the polished finish of the Balinese style if you coose to etch further. The surface of the Balinese keris should not look like the Javanese keris.

Nechesh

I used ferric chloride and then buffed it with 0000 steel wool. The any other etching will be done by a professional.

Lew