Gunong

[Robert]

Seeing as I had the chance to pick this up for literally next to nothing on epray I would really appreciate the experts assistance with determination its age. I do not at the present time have any information on the dimensions of this piece but from what I have been able to find out by reading the various posts on these I am assuming that the shape of the hilt is one of the main points in determining age. With that in mind I would guess that this would have possibly been made anywhere from the 1920's to the 1940's. Any and all help with this would be greatly appreciated. As for the present condition of gunong I think that it will be a easy restoration project. Here are the pictures from the auction.

Robert

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

good catch, think that it is a early one, around 1920. Don't think that it is much later. I agree, after some restore work it will be a nice looking piece. Try to etch it, don't think that it isn't laminated. Please keep us updated.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Definitely worth more than "next to nothing". ;)
I pretty much agree with Detlef. Definitely pre-WWII i'd say. This should be a fun restoration job. I image it will clean up nicely. :)

[Battara]

Good call for the 1920s. I also agree in that it maybe a laminated blade.

[Ferguson]

Sweet! Love the hilt shape.
Steve

[Robert]

I would like to thank everyone who has commented so far for your interest and help in confirming the age of this gunong. As soon as it arrives I will clean and take a very close look at the blade to see if it is laminated or not but just by enlarging and looking at the above pictures I already believe that it more than likely is. I am also looking forward to cleaning the left over glue "from where the hilt at one time had been wrapped with tape" to see if the hilt is of burled wood as I also suspect it to be. Again, I would like to thank you all for your kind words and help with this piece.

Regards,
Robert

[Battara]

If there are any designs in the guard, please post that too.......

[Robert]

Will do Jose. I'm starting to get excited about its arrival now as I only have the one other gunong which is quite different from this one. I hate to say this but I completely missed this one and the wife put in the winning bid. :o

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

What a wonderful woman!

Gotta love her. :D

[Robert]

What a wonderful woman!

Gotta love her. :D
And I do, very much. One thing though, I do however believe she prefers Moro pieces over the more transitional Luzon ones that I tend to acquire. ;) :D

Best,
Robert

[Battara]

Preferences are fine. My wife who not interested in any of my stuff, was interested in a yatghan I had a while back (and later traded for a better and rare Moro piece).

[VANDOO]

NICE ONE I ESPECIALLY LIKE THESE SMALL WAVEY BLADED OLD ONES. THIS WOULD BE A GOOD CHANCE TO TAKE A CLOSE UP OF THE TANG AS I DON'T THINK WE HAVE DISCUSSED OR HAVE GOOD PICTURES OF THE FORM OF TANG USED ON MORO GUNONGS OR ON NEWER ONES.

[Robert]

Hello Barry, and thank you for your kind words. When this arrives I will be posting close-ups of the blade as well as the tang and guard. I will also post pictures showing details of the crack in the hilt. I'm sure that I will also will be asking for everyones opinions on the best way to proceed with the hilt repairs including what will be the best glue for the wood and where to obtain cutlers resin "or pine resin to make my own" to reset the blade with. I just don't like the idea of using epoxy for this type of repair.

Regards,
Robert

[Robert]

Well. it has arrived and here are a few new pictures taken after I did a light cleaning of the blade. The blade is laminated and it is quite clear when holding it in the sunlight but I don't think it can be seen in the pictures. The hilt as can be seen has a piece broken out of the top that needs to be glued back into position. There are no designs engraved into the rather plain copper guard .
The sheath is missing one of its brass bands which will be quite easy to replace. Any opinions on the best way to proceed with the hilt repairs including what will be the best glue for the wood and where to obtain cutlers resin "or pine resin to make my own" to reset the blade with would be greatly appreciated. The reason I am asking about glue is because what I used to use is no longer being made.:(

Regards,
Robert

[VANDOO]

I USUALLY USE ELMER,S WOOD GLUE ITS WHITE BUT DRYS CLEAR AND IF YOU WIPE ANY EXCESS OFF WITH A WET TISSUE WHEN IT DRYS IT IS NOT EASY TO SEE THE HANDLE REPAIR.
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE THE TYPE OF GLUE YOU WANT BUT PERHAPS TAR WOULD WORK AS IT COOLS HARD AND CAN BE HEATED TO REMOVE IT LATER. THERE ARE SOLVENTS TO DISOLVE IT AS WELL IF YOU MAKE A MESS.

[kai]

Hello Robert,

Could you please provide a close-up of the inside of the hilt (hole for the tang)? That's a rare opportunity to have a closer look... ;)

I'd also favor a traditional wood glue. However you'll need extra efforts to prepare a mold/cushion so that you can apply even pressure while the glue sets (a good bonds depends on the pressure but, obviously, you don't want to crush the hilt either); allow for some generous extra time (days) for the glue to set perfectly.

If this seems too much of a hassle, an good epoxy glue will also give an acceptable bond.

The break looks clean enough. Woods with higher amount of natural oils can result in weaker bonds though; you could try to degrease the break surface with acetone.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Wood glue for boats is good since it's hardening more fast as normal wood glue. For fixing/pressing you can use wire with underlay tissue of course.

I am very curious to see the dagger when you have finished your work, I am sure it will be a beauty.

Regards,

Detlef

[VANDOO]

ONE THING TO REMEMBER WHEN DOING A GLUE JOB LIKE THIS ONE IS TO SWAB OUT INSIDE THE HOLE FOR THE TANG SO EXCESS GLUE DOES NOT DRY AND OBSTRUCT THE TANG LATER. HARD GLUE CAN BE DIFFICULT TO REMOVE ESPECIALLY THE EPOXIE TYPES.

[Robert]

Hello everyone and thank you all for the advice on what type of glue to use and the tips on making the repairs.

Kai, I will post the pictures of the inside of the hole in the hilt sometime tomorrow both with and without the broken piece in place and one of the open end where the tang is inserted. If there are any others that you would like just let me know before I get everything glued. I always allow a minimum of 72 hours drying time for any repairs using an adhesive before removing the clamps.

Detlef, The glue that I used to be able to get was marine glue from one of the local boat repair shops but unfortunately it is now out of production and they are using an epoxy glue now. The one that I was using was a water based glue that was not affected by water after it had dried.

Barry, tar just might work if I add a few things to it "like when making cutlers resin" to help make it firm when cooled. As far as Elmer's wood glue goes I used to use it before I started using the marine glue and will more than likely use on this repair. I was hoping that there might be something better on the market that someone has had experience using that might be better.

Thank you all again for your help and advice on this project and I will for the first time take pictures during the entire process.

Regards,
Robert

P.S.
After closer examination of the scabbard it looks as though there are two bands missing. The top of the scabbard shows evidence of a wider band and there is also evidence that there were originally two narrow bands. I was thinking of making the missing top band the same style as the ferrule. What would be everyones thoughts on that?

[Robert]

Kai, here are the requested pictures of the hole for the tang. If these are not what you are looking for please let me know.


Regards,
Robert

[Sajen]

Detlef, The glue that I used to be able to get was marine glue from one of the local boat repair shops but unfortunately it is now out of production and they are using an epoxy glue now. The one that I was using was a water based glue that was not affected by water after it had dried.


Too bad, this wood glue is very good. Think we speak about the same glue.

Regards,

Detlef

[kai]

Hello Robert,

Kai, here are the requested pictures of the hole for the tang.
Thanks!

Can you ascertain what tool was used to drill the hole?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

BTW, I'd opt for the traditional resin recipe: damar is easy to order online, a bit of beeswax, and a filler and you're ready to go...

[Robert]

Kai, As far as I can tell the hole in the hilt looks to have been burnt in, It was more than likely made by using a small round piece of metal that would be heated red and then forced into the wood as far as it would go then the burnt material would be cleaned out with a small thin blade. This process would then be continued until the hole would be of significant depth for the tang to be inserted its full length. This could explain the irregular shape of the hole, larger at the starting point and smaller at its end but not maintaining a true taper. It would also explain the burnt wood smell that I noticed when cleaning the remaining adhesive from the inside surface of the socket. Of course this is all just speculation on my part and there is no way to prove that this was the way it was originally done, though it does make for a good story. ;) :D

Regards,
Robert

P.S.
Cutlers resin is just pine resin mixed with a bit of beeswax and a filler but it looks as though damar resin is easier to find in small amounts and cheaper !!
Thank you for the tip.

[Robert]

If there are no more questions on the hilt construction I am going to start the restoration process. There is one more question that I would like to ask. If anyone else has had one of these apart, was the tang offset from the centerline of the blade like this example? Thank you again for everyones help and suggestions.


Regards,
Robert

[Sajen]

Hello Robert,

some news?

Regards,

Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, Thank you for asking. I was thinking of posting these two pictures when you posted your reply. The hilt is done the best that I can do for the damage that it had sustained. The edges of the brake were really dark so I did a bleach job on the them and this is the result. They are now no where as dark as they were before bleaching and the seam though still quite evident is not as obvious as it was before. All it needs now is some wax and as far as I am concerned it is finished.

Regards,
Robert

[Sajen]

Wow, very well done! Now I am curious to see the punal when it is complete again! ;) :D

Regards,

Detlef

[Battara]

Nice job and you brought the burled wood back!

[Robert]

Detlef and Jose, thank you both very much for your kind words on my work so far. To be honest I was hoping for a little better result on the repair that I have done to the broken hilt but sometimes things just do not turn out the way you want them to. I will be posting more pictures as the restoration progresses. Thank you both again.

Regards,
Robert

[Ferguson]

The repair looks good to me. Nice job. Can't wait to see the finished product!

Steve

[Robert]

Well, here is the gunong. I still have to finish the scabbard and will post pictures when it is done. Sorry about the poor picture quality but seeing as we had 8 inches of snow today and the wind is still blowing I had to take the photo inside.

Robert

[Battara]

Lovely! :)

[kino]

The edges of the brake were really dark so I did a bleach job on the them


What procedure did you follow and what materials were used to bleach the hilt?
Great job on restoring it! :)

[Robert]

Hello Jose and thank you for your kind words about my work. I have to antique the brass and copper fittings yet but other than that I think the work on the knife itself is done as I do not plan on etching the blade. Now, on to the scabbard and making the missing fittings.

Kino, I use a 20% solution of clorox bleach and distilled water. I clean the wood of any wax and then clamp it together just like it was being glued and then apply the solution with a small paint brush to the stained areas. It is then placed in bright sunlight for a few hours. More solution is applied until the desired effect is achieved. I rinse off the piece and then place it into a container of distilled water to finish neutralizing the bleach. I always soak the wood I am working with overnight, dry off any excess water and then glue and clamp the pieces together and leave for a minimum of 72 hours before removing the clamp or clamps. I have always use distilled water when working with wood as that is the way I was taught many years ago. I hope that this information will be of some help to you or anyone else that runs into a situation that requires stain removal.

Best,
Robert

[kino]

Thank Robert.
Sounds easy ,but it's not.

[CharlesS]

Beautifully done! It's amazing what a little wax will do to burled wood.

A treasure is all the more appreciated when you brought it back to life!

[T. Koch]

Wow Robert, what a transformation! We're talking pure necromancy here! :D

It's very inspiring to see your work and you did good bringing honor to the old piece. I aim to slowly and gradually increase my own restoration skills and hope to one day be able to pull off this caliber of work too. I'll look forward to see you antiquing the brass and hope you'll be detailed in your description here as well. -I'm considering this on one of my own swords, so would love to see whats possible. :)


Thanks for sharing, - Thor

[Sajen]

Perfect! :)

[Robert]

Thank you all very much for your kind words. I will be posting pictures of the scabbard as the work progresses. It will take time though as I am (as usual) trying to do ten things all at the same time.
Best,
Robert

[imas560]

Hello Robert,
any chance of an update on progress?

Also I was wondering what kind of wax you used for polishing the hilt?
I've just got some Natural Beeswax Finisher's Formula with Manuka Oil & Honey made in NZ. Am building up courage to use on a couple of handles.

And what you used as the bonding agent (resin, glue etc)?
I've been trying to look for damar but am not sure what kind to get (white versus red).

Apologies for all the questions, but threads like this on restoration/care and maintenance are most informative.
thanks

[Robert]

Imas560, Very sorry for not responding to your questions earlier, but it has been quite hectic here at the old homestead this summer. I haven't done much of anything other than taking care of the endless list of chores around the house that "she who must be obeyed" keeps finding to occupy my time with. That being said, I hope to be able to post a few new photos early next week. To answer your inquiry on the wax, I use Renaissance wax on all the pieces in my collection. On this piece however because of the wood being so dried out I used artist linseed oil to refresh the wood (after the glue had dried for several days) before applying the Ren wax. As to the adhesive, I use my own homemade cutlers resin/damar. Here is the recipe that I use:

8 oz pine pitch,
1/4 cup carnauba wax
4 oz beeswax
Powdered black paint pigment for color
and as a hardening agent for when it sets

The amount of pigment used varies depending on how hard you want this to set up after it cools. After this is all carefully melted together in a double boiler I pour it into silicon ice cube trays to cool for later use.
Most all of these items can be found at your local hardware store other than the pine pitch which I found on epray. I hope that this has answered your questions and will be of some help to you.

Best,
Robert

[imas560]

Hello Robert,
very helpful thanks. I've just ordered some beeswax and am trying to hunt down some gum, might have a line for some kauri gum, but I might be able to scrounge some pine gum from some local trees.
Things seem to be coming together nicely, just need some time for some alchemy in the backyard.
thanks

[Robert]

Hello Everyone, I've been meaning to up-date this thread for awhile and never seemed to remember to get around to it. Here are a couple of photos of the gunong after doing a little work to the scabbard. These were taken before I oil finished the wood and aged the brass bits. I will have to take a couple more photos of it to post in the next day or so as I never got around to doing it after I was finished with this piece. I hope that you approve of my efforts at restoring this and trying to give it back some of the dignity it had lost over years of neglect by its previous owners.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Just stunning what you have done with this little gunong. :eek: Have you worked the brass bands for the scabbard byself?

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Hello Detlef, Thank you very much for your complements on the progress on this piece. All of the bands for the restoration of this I hand made except the for the piece on the very end which was original to the scabbard. The banding at the throat of the scabbard I made to match the ferrule on the hilt of the gunong itself. I had at first made it plain (like the lowest band) but it just did not look correct (or for that matter very pleasing to the eye) so I added the extra bands to the top and bottom to help dress it up a bit and give it a more completed look. I will post photos of the completed piece as soon as I can find the time and the weather decides to cooperate enough for me to be able to take them out doors in decent light. Again, thank you for your kind words.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Give credit where credit is due! :D ;) So you have hard-soldering the brass bands? I ask because I plan to work similar bands for some scabbards.

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Detlef, I use mostly silver solder when working with brass or copper though on some occasions I will still use lead solder with a rosin flux, I never use an acid base flux on anything brass or copper when doing repair work. All the bands I made and used on this gunong are silver soldered for strength and durability.

Best,
Robert

[Sajen]

Robert, thank you very much! Very helpful. :)

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Nice work Robert!

[Robert]

Thank you Jose. I tried to use the same material that might have been available at the time this piece was first made by using brass salvaged from a couple of old beat up shell casings I had laying around for just such an occasion as this. I left most of the scratches and dings in to help the new pieces better match the one original piece that was still remaining, unfortunately they do not photograph well. Again, thank you for your opinion on the progress made to the point at which these photos were taken.

Best,
Robert

[Robert]

Well, I finally got around to taking a photo of the finished gunong. In the last photo you can see ghost impressions of where the missing original bands had been so I have placed the new bands as close to where the originals were as possible. As it does not seem that it will ever stop raining I had to take this photo inside.

Best,
Robert

[Ferguson]

Very nice work Robert!

[Robert]

Thank you Steve. I was hoping (as you have such an impressive collection of these) that you would answer a couple of questions on these for me. On the ones you know for a fact to be older examples (non-wavy blades) are the top edge of all the earlier ones sharpened from the guard to the tip of the blade instead of having a short flat section of spine next to the guard? Also, do the blades usually appear to be of thinner construction on the earlier examples (both wavy and non-wavy) as compared to the ones attributed to the 1930's and up?
Again my thanks for your kind words on my attempted restoration of this gunong.

Best,
Robert